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100th  Congress  —  1st  Session        •        January  6-December  22,  1987 


Senate  Report 

No.  216 


IRAN-CONTRA  INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX  B,  VOLUME  20 
DEPOSITIONS 


United  States  Congressional  Serial  Set 

Serial  Number  13761 


United  States  Government  Printing  Office 
Washington  :  1989 


Union  Calendar  No.  277 
100th  Congress,  1st  Session 
S.  Rept.  No.  100-216  H.  Rept.  No.  100-433 


Report  of  the   Congressional   Committees   Investigating   the 

Iran-Contra  Affair 

Appendix  B:  Volume  20 
Depositions 


Daniel  K.  Inouye,  Chairman, 
Senate  Select  Committee 

Lee  H.  Hamilton,  Chairman, 
House  Select  Committee 


U.S.  Senate  Select  Committee  U.S.  House  of  Representatives 

On  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  Select  Committee  to  Investigate 

And  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 

November  13,  1987.  -  Committed  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  House 

on  the  State  of  the  Union  and  ordered  to  be  printed. 

November  17,  1987.— Ordered  to  be  printed. 


Washington  :  1988 


i 


I 


Bnited  Starts  Senate 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON  SECRET  MILITARY 

ASSISTANCE  TO  IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON,  DC  20510-6480 


March    1,    1988 

Honorable  John  C.  Stennis 
President  pro  tempore 
United  States  Senate 
Washington,  D.C. 

Dear  Mr.  President: 

We  have  the  pleasure  to  transmit  herewith,  pursuant  to 
Senate  Resolution  23,  Appendix  B  to  the  final  Report  of  the 
Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran 
and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition.   We  will  submit  such  other  volumes 
of  Appendices  to  the  Report  as  are  authorized  and  as  they  become 
available. 


Sincerely, 


Warren  B.  Rudman    V^ 
Vice  Chairman 


III 


U.S.  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  TO  INVESTIGATE 

COVEHT  ARMS  TRANSACTIONS  WITH  IRAN 

UNITED  STATES  CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON,  DC  20S1S 

(202)  22$-7902 

March   1,    1988 


The  Honorable  Jim  Wright 
Speaker  of  the  House 
U.  S.  Capitol 
Washington,  D.  C.  20515 

Dear  Mr.  Speaker: 

Pursuant  to  the  provisions  of  House  Resolutions  12  and 
330  and  House  Concurrent  Resolution  195,  100th  Congress,  1st 
Session,  I  transmit  herewith  Appendix  B  to  the  Report  of  the 
Congressional  Committees  Investigating  the  Iran-Contra  Affair, 
House  Report  No.  100-433,  100th  Congress,  1st  Session. 

Appendix  B  consists  of  the  depositions  taken  by  the 
Select  Committees  during  the  investigation.  The  contents  of 
Appendix  B  have  been  declassified  fajr^elease  to  the  public. 


Lee  H.  Hamilton 
Chairman 


United  States  Senate 

Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance 
To  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition 

Daniel  K.  Inouye,  Hawaii,  Chairman 
Warren  Rudman,  New  Hampshire,  Vice  Chairman 

George  J.  Mitchell,  Maine 

Sam  Nunn,  Georgia 
Paul  S.  Sarbanes,  Maryland 
Howell  T.  Heflin,  Alabama 
David  L.  Boren,  Oklahoma 

James  A.  McClure,  Idaho 

Orrin  G.  Hatch,  Utah 

William  S.  Cohen,  Maine 

Paul  S.  Trible,  Jr.,  Virginia 


Arthur  L.  Liman 
Chief  Counsel 

Mark  A.  Belnick  Paul  Barbadoro 

Executive  Assistant  Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

To  the  Chief  Counsel 

Mary  Jane  Checchi 
Executive  Director 

Lance  I.  Morgan 
Press  Officer 


VI 


United  States  House  of  Representatives 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms 
Transactions  with  Iran 

Lee  H.  Hamilton,  Indiana,  Chairman 
Dante  B.  Fascell,  Florida,  Vice  Chairman 

Thomas  S.  Foley,  Washington 

Peter  W.  Rodino,  Jr.,  New  Jersey 

Jack  Brooks,  Texas 

Louis  Stokes,  Ohio 

Les  Aspin,  Wisconsin 

Edward  P.  Boland,  Massachusetts 

Ed  Jenkins,  Georgia 

Dick  Cheney,  Wyoming,  Ranking  Republican 

Wm.  S.  Broomfield,  Michigan 

Henry  J.  Hyde,  Illinois 

Jim  Courter,  New  Jersey 

Bill  McCollum,  Florida 

Michael  DeWine,  Ohio 


John  W.  Nields,  Jr. 
Chief  Counsel 

W.  Neil  Eggleston 
Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

Kevin  C.  Miller 
Staff  Director 


Thomas  R.  Smeeton 
Minority  Staff  Director 

George  W.  Van  Cleve 
Chief  Minority  Counsel 

Richard  J.  Leon 
Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel 


VII 


United  States  Senate 


Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to 
Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition 


Arthur  L.  Liman 
Chief  Counsel 
Mark  A.  Belnick  Paul  Barbadoro 

Executive  Assistant  Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

to  the  Chief  Counsel 

Mary  Jane  Checchi 
Executive  Director 

Lance  I.  Morgan 
Press  Officer 

Associate  Counsels 


C.  H.  Albright,  Jr. 
Daniel  Finn 
C.  H.  Holmes 
James  E.  Kaplan 
Charles  M.  Kerr 
Joel  P.  Lisker 


W.  T.  McGough,  Jr. 
Richard  D.  Parry 
John  D.  Saxon 
Terry  A.  Smiljanich 
Timothy  C.  Woodcock 


Committee  Staff 


Assistant  Counsels 


Legal  Counsel 
Intelligence/Foreign 

Policy  Analysts 
Investigators 


Press  Assistant 
General  Accounting 
Office  Detailees 


Security  Officer 
Security  Assistants 


Chief  Clerk 
Deputy  Chief  Clerk 


Steven  D.  Arkin* 
Isabel  K.  McGinty 
John  R.  Monsky 
Victoria  F.  Nourse 
Philip  Bobbitt 
Rand  H.  Fishbein 
Thomas  Polgar 
Lawrence  R. 

Embrey,  Sr. 
David  E.  Faulkner 
Henry  J.  Flynn 
Samuel  Hirsch 
John  J.  Cronin 
Olga  E.  Johnson 
John  C.  Martin 
Melinda  Suddes* 
Robert  Wagner 
Louis  H.  Zanardi 
Benjamin  C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David  Carty 
Kim  Lasater 
Scott  R.  Thompson 
Judith  M.  Keating* 
Scott  R.  Ferguson 


Staff  Assistants 


Administrative  Staff 


Secretaries 


Receptionist 
Computer  Center 
Detailee 


John  K.  Appleby 
Ruth  Balin 
Robert  E.  Esler 
Ken  Foster* 
Martin  H.  Garvey 
Rachel  D.  Kaganoff* 
Craig  L.  Keller 
Hawley  K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen  G.  Miller 
Jennie  L.  Pickford* 
Michael  A.  Ray  nor 
Joseph  D. 

Smallwood* 
Kristin  K.  Trenholm 
Thomas  E.  Tremble 
Bruce  Vaughn 
Laura  J.  Ison 
Hilary  Phillips 
Winifred  A.  Williams* 
Nancy  S.   Durflinger 
Shari  D.  Jenifer 
Kathryn  A.  Momot 
Cindy  Pearson 
Debra  S.  Sheffield* 
Ramona  H.  Green 
Preston  Sweet 


VIII 


Committee  Members'  Designated  Liaison 


Senator  Inouye 
Senator  Rudman 

Senator  Mitchell 

Senator  Nunn 

Senator  Sarbanes 
Senator  Heflin 


Peter  Simons 
William  V.  Cowan 
Thomas  C.  Polgar 
Richard  H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore  Hill 
Jeffrey  H.  Smith 
Frederick  Millhiser 
Thomas  J.  Young 


Senator  Boren 

Senator  McClure 
Senator  Hatch 

Senator  Cohen 

Senator  Trible 


Sven  Holmes 
Blythe  Thomas 
Jack  Gerard 
Dee  V.  Benson 
James  G.  Phillips 
James  Dykstra 
L.  Britt  Snider 
Richard  Cullen 


Part  Time* 


Assistant  Counsel 
Hearings  Coordinator 
Staff  Assistants 


Interns 


Peter  V.  Letsou 
Joan  M.  Ansheles 
Edward  P. 

Flaherty,  Jr. 
Barbara  H.  Hummell 
David  G.  Wiencek 
Nona  Balaban 
Edward  E. 

Eldridge,  III 
Elizabeth  J.  Glennie 
Stephen  A.  Higginson 
Laura  T.  Kunian 
Julia  F.  Kogan 
Catherine  L.  Udell 


Document  Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 


Lyndal  L.  Shaneyfelt 
Edward  L.  Keenan 
Lewis  Liman 
Catherine  Roe 
Susan  Walsh 


♦The  staff  member  was  not  with  the  Select  Committee  when  the  Report  was  filed  but  had,  during 
the  life  of  the  Committee,  provided  services. 


IX 


United  States  House  of  Representatives 


Select  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 


Majority  Staff 


Special  Deputy 

Chief  Counsel 
Staff  Counsels 


Press  Liaison 
Chief  Clerk 
Assistant  Clerk 
Research  Director 
Research  Assistants 


John  W.  Nields,  Jr. 
Chief  Counsel 

W.  Neil  Eggleston 
Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

Kevin  C.  Miller 
Staff  Director 


Charles  Tiefer 

Kenneth  M.  Ballen 
Patrick  J.  Carome 
V.  Thomas 

Fryman,  Jr. 
Pamela  J. 

Naughton 
Joseph  P.  Saba 
Robert  J.  Havel 
Ellen  P.  Rayner 
Debra  M.  Cabral 
Louis  Fisher 
Christine  C. 

Birmann 
Julius  M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth  D.  Harvey 
James  E.  Rosenthal 


Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive  Assistant 
Staff  Assistants 


Catherine  L. 

Zimmer 
Charles  G.  Ratcliff 
Stephen  M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth  S.  Wright 
Bonnie  J.  Brown 
Christina  Kalbouss 
Sandra  L.  Koehler 
Jan  L.  Suter 
Katherine  E.  Urban 
Kristine  Willie 
Mary  K.  Yount 


Minority  Staff 


Associate  Minority 

Counsel 
Assistant  Minority 

Counsel 
Minority  Research 

Director 


Thomas  R.  Smeeton 
Minority  Staff  Director 

George  W.  Van  Cleve 
Chief  Minority  Counsel 

Richard  J.  Leon 
Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel 


Robert  W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth  R.  Buck 

Bruce  E.  Fein 


Minority  Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority  Executive 
Assistant 

Minority  Staff 
Assistant 


Michael  J.  Malbin 

Molly  W.  Tully 

Margaret  A. 
Dillenburg 


Committee  Staff 


Investigators 


Director  of  Security 


Robert  A. 

Bermingham 
James  J.  Black 
Thomas  N. 

Ciehanski 
William  A.  Davis, 

m 

Clark  B.  Hall 
Allan  E.  Hobron 
Roger  L.  Kreuzer 
Donald  Remstein 
Jack  W.  Taylor 
Timothy  E.  Traylor 
Bobby  E.  Pope 


Security  Officers 


Editor 

Deputy  Editor 
Associate  Editor 
Production  Editor 
Hearing  Editors 

Printing  Clerk 


Rafael  Luna,  Jr. 
Theresa  M.  Martin 
Milagros  Martinez 
Clayton  C.  Miller 
Angel  R.  Torres 
Joseph  Foote 
Lisa  L.  Berger 
Nina  Graybill 
Mary  J.  Scroggins 
David  L.  White 
Stephen  G.  Regan 
G.  R.  Beckett 


Associate  Staff 


Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 


Michael  H. 

Van  Dusen 
Christopher  Kojm 
R.  Spencer  Oliver 
Bert  D.  Hammond 
Victor  Zangla 
Heather  S.  Foley 
Werner  W.  Brandt 
M.  Elaine  Mielke 
James  J. 

Schweitzer 
William  M.  Jones 

Michael  J.  O'Neil 
Richard  M.  Giza 
Richard  E.  Clark 
Warren  L.  Nelson 


Representative 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courier 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General  Counsel  to 

the  Clerk 


Michael  W.  Sheehy 

Robert  H.  Brink 

Steven  K.  Berry 
David  S.  Addington 
Diane  S.  Doman 

Dennis  E.  Teti 

Tina  L.  Westby 

Nicholas  P.  Wise 

Steven  R.  Ross 


XI 


Contents 

Volume  20 


Preface XXI 

Motley,  Langhome  A 1 

Mulligan,  David  P 42 

Nagy,  Alex  G   171 

Napier,  Shirley  A  218 

Newington,  Barbara 359 

North,  Oliver  L 471 

O'Boyle,  William  B 491 

Osborne,  Duncan 615 

Owen,  Robert  W 628 

Pena,  Richard 883 

Pickering,  Thomas 950 

Poindexter,  John  M 997 


XIII 


Depositions 


Volume  1 


Airline  Proprietary  Project  Officer. 
Alvarez,  Francisco  J. 
Allen,  Charles. 
Arcos,  Cresencio. 


Volume  2 


Volume  3 


Armitage,  Richard. 
Artiano,  Martin  L. 
Associate  DDO  (CIA). 
Baker,  James  A.,  III. 
Barbules,  Lt.  Gen.  Peter. 
Bamett,  Ana. 
Bartlett,  Linda  June. 
Bastian,  James  H. 
Brady,  Nicholas  F. 
Brown,  Arthur  E.,  Jr. 


Byrne,  Phyllis  M. 
Calero,  Adolfo. 
Castillo,  Tomas  ("W"). 
Cave,  George  W. 
C/CATF. 


Volume  4 

Channell,  Cari  R. 

Chapman,  John  R.  (With  Billy  Ray  Reyer). 

Chatham,  Benjamin  P. 

CIA  Air  Branch  Chief. 

CIA  Air  Branch  Deputy  Chief. 

CIA  Air  Branch  Subordinate. 

CIA  Chief. 

CIA  Communicator. 

CIA  Identity  "A". 


XV 


Volume  5 

CIA  Officer. 

Clagett,  C.  Thomas,  Jr. 

Clark,  Alfred  (With  Gregory  Zink). 

Clarke,  George. 

Clarridge,  Dewey  R. 

Cline,  Ray  S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen,  Harold  G. 

Volume  6 

Collier,  George  E. 

Cole,  Gary. 

Communications  Officer  Headquarters,  CIA. 

Conrad,  Daniel  L. 


Volume  7 


Cooper,  Charles  J. 
Coors,  Joseph. 
Corbin,  Joan. 
Corr,  Edwin  G. 
Coward,  John  C. 
Coy,  Craig  R 
Crawford,  Iain  T.R. 


Crawford,  Susan. 
Crowe,  Adm.  William  J. 
Currier,  Kevin  W. 
DCM,  Country  15. 
DEA  Agent  1. 
DEA  Agent  2. 
DEA  Agent  3. 
deGraffenreid,  Kenneth, 
de  la  Torre,  Hugo. 
Deputy  Chief  "DC. 


Duemling,  Robert  W. 
DIA  Major. 
Dietel,  J.  Edwin. 
Dowling,  Father  Thomas. 
Dutton,  Robert  C. 
Earl,  Robert. 


Volume  8 


Volume  9 


XVI 


Volume  10 


Farber,  Jacob. 
Feldman,  Jeffrey. 
Fischer,  David  C. 
Floor,  Emanuel  A. 
Former  CIA  Officer. 
Fraser,  Donald. 
Fraser,  Edie. 
Fuller,  Craig  L. 


Volume  11 


Furmark,  Roy. 

Gadd,  Richard. 

Gaffney,  Henry. 

Gaffney,  Henry  (With  Glenn  A. 

Galvin,  Gen.  John  R. 

Gantt,  Florence. 

Garwood,  Ellen  Clayton. 

Gast,  Lt.  Gen.  Philip  C. 

Gates,  Robert  M. 

Glanz,  Anne. 


Rudd). 


Volume  12 


George,  Clair. 
Godard,  Ronald  D. 
Godson,  Roy  S. 
Golden,  William. 
Gomez,  Francis  D. 
Goodman,  Adam. 
Gorman,  Paul  F. 
Graham,  Daniel  O. 
Gregg,  Donald  P. 
Gregorie,  Richard  D. 
Guillen,  Adriana. 


Hakim,  Albert. 


Hall,  Wilma. 
Hasenfus,  Eugene. 
Hirtle,  Jonathan  J. 
Hooper,  Bruce. 


Volume  13 


Volume  14 


XVII 


Hunt,  Nelson  Bunker. 
Ikle,  Fred  C. 
Jensen,  D.  Lowell. 
Juchniewicz,  Edward  S. 
Kagan,  Robert  W. 
Keel,  Alton  G. 
Kellner,  Leon  B. 
Kelly,  John  H. 
Kiszynski,  George. 


Koch,  Noel  C. 
Kuykendall,  Dan  H. 
Langton,  William  G. 
Lawn,  John  C. 
Leachman,  Chris  J.,  Jr. 
Ledeen,  Michael  A. 


Lei  want,  David  O. 
Lilac,  Robert  H. 
Lincoln,  Col.  James  B. 
Littledale,  Krishna  S. 
McDonald,  John  William. 
McFarlane,  Robert  C. 
McKay,  Lt.  Col.  John  C. 
McLaughlin,  Jane  E. 


McMahon,  John  N. 
McMahon,  Stephen. 
McNeil,  Frank. 
Makowka,  Bernard. 
Marostica,  Don. 
Marsh,  John. 
Mason,  Robert  H. 


Meese,  Edwin  IE. 
Melton,  Richard  H. 
Merchant,  Brian  T. 
Meo,  Philip  H. 
Miller,  Arthur  J. 
Miller,  Henry  S. 
Miller,  Johnathan. 


Volume  15 


Volume  16 


Volume  17 


Volume  18 


XVIII 


Miller,  Richard  R. 


Motley,  Langhorne  A. 
Mulligan,  David  R 
Nagy,  Alex  G. 
Napier,  Shirley  A. 
Newington,  Barbara. 
North,  Oliver  L. 
O'Boyle,  William  B. 
Osborne,  Duncan. 
Owen,  Robert  W. 
Pena,  Richard. 
Pickering,  Thomas. 
Poindexter,  John  M. 


Posey,  Thomas  V. 
Powell,  Gen.  Colin  L. 
Price,  Charles  H.,  11. 
Proprietary  Manager. 
Proprietary  Pilot. 
Radzimski,  James  R. 
Ramsey,  John  W. 
Ransom,  David  M. 


Volume  19 


Volume  20 


Volume  21 


Volume  22 


Raymond,  Walter,  Jr. 

Regan,  Donald  T. 

Reich,  Otto  J. 

Revell,  Oliver  B. 

Reyer,  Billy  Ray  (See  John  Chapman). 

Reynolds,  William  B. 


Volume  23 


Richard,  Mark  M. 
Richardson,  John,  Jr. 
Robelo,  Alfonso. 
Robinette,  Glenn  A. 
Rodriguez,  Felix  I. 
Roseman,  David. 


XIX 


Rosenblatt,  William. 
Royer,  Larry. 
Rudd,  Glenn  A. 
Rudd,  Glenn  A. 


(See  Henry  Gaffney). 


Volume  24 


Rugg,  John  J. 
Russo,  Vincent  M. 
Sanchez,  Nestor. 
Scharf,  Lawrence. 
Schweitzer,  Robert  L. 
Sciaroni,  Bretton  G. 
Secord,  Richard  V. 


Shackley,  Theodore  G. 
Sigur,  Gaston  J. 
Simpson,  Major  C. 
Sinclair,  Thomas  C. 
Singlaub,  John  K. 


Slease,  Clyde  H.,  IE. 
Smith,  Clifton. 
Sofaer,  Abraham  D. 
Steele,  Col.  James  J. 
Taft,  William  H.,  IV. 
Tashiro,  Jack  T. 
Teicher,  Howard. 
Thompson,  Paul. 
Tillman,  Jacqueline. 


Volume  25 


Volume  26 


Volume  27 


Thurman,  Gen.  Maxwell. 

Trott,  Stephen  S. 

TuU,  James  L. 

Vessey,  John. 

Walker,  William  G. 

Watson,  Samuel  J.,  IIL 

Weinberger,  Caspar. 

Weld,  William. 

Wickham,  John. 

Zink,  Gregory  (See  Alfred  Clark). 


XX 


Preface 


The  House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 
and  the  Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  and  the 
Nicaraguan  Opposition,  under  authority  contained  in  the  resolutions  establishing 
them  (H.  Res.  12  and  S.  Res.  23,  respectively),  deposed  approximately  290 
individuals  over  the  course  of  their  10-month  joint  investigation. 

The  use  of  depositions  enabled  the  Select  Committees  to  take  sworn  responses 
to  specific  interrogatories,  and  thereby  to  obtain  information  under  oath  for  the 
written  record  and  develop  lines  of  inquiry  for  the  public  hearings. 

Select  Committees  Members  and  staff  counsel,  including  House  minority 
counsel,  determined  who  would  be  deposed,  then  sought  subpoenas  from  the 
Chairmen  of  the  Select  Committees,  when  appropriate,  to  compel  the  individuals 
to  appear  in  nonpublic  sessions  for  questioning  under  oath.  Many  deponents 
received  separate  subpoenas  ordering  them  to  produce  certain  written  documents. 

Members  and  staff  traveled  throughout  the  United  States  and  abroad  to  meet 
with  deponents.  All  depositions  were  stenographically  reported  or  tape-recorded 
and  later  transcribed  and  duly  authenticated.  Deponents  had  the  right  to  review 
their  statements  after  transcription  and  to  suggest  factual  and  technical  correc- 
tions to  the  Select  Committees. 

At  the  depositions,  deponents  could  assert  their  fifth  amendment  privilege 
to  avoid  self-incrimination  by  refusing  to  answer  specific  questions.  They  were 
also  entitled  to  legal  representation.  Most  Federal  Government  deponents  were 
represented  by  lawyers  from  their  agency;  the  majority  of  private  individuals 
retained  their  own  counsel. 

The  Select  Committees,  after  obtaining  the  requisite  court  orders,  granted 
limited  or  "use"  immunity  to  about  20  deponents.  Such  immunity  means  that, 
while  a  deposed  individual  could  no  longer  invoke  the  fifth  amendiment  to  avoid 
answering  a  question,  his  or  her  compelled  responses— or  leads  or  collateral 
evidence  based  on  those  responses— could  not  be  used  in  any  subsequent  criminal 
prosecution  of  that  individual,  except  a  prosecution  for  perjury,  giving  a  false 
statement,  or  otherwise  failing  to  comply  with  the  court  order. 

An  executive  branch  Declassification  Committee,  located  in  the  White  House, 
assisted  the  Committee  by  reviewing  each  page  of  deposition  transcript  and  some 
exhibits  and  identifying  classified  matter  relating  to  national  security.  Some 
depositions  were  not  reviewed  or  could  not  be  declassified  for  security  reasons. 

In  addition,  members  of  the  House  Select  Committee  staff  corrected  obvious 
typographical  errors  by  hand  and  deleted  personal  and  proprietary  information 
not  considered  germane  to  the  investigation. 

In  these  Depositions  volumes,  some  of  the  deposition  transcripts  are  follow- 
ed by  exhibits.  The  exhibits— documentary  evidence— were  developed  by  Select 
Committees'  staff  in  the  course  of  the  Select  Committees'  investigation  or  were 
provided  by  the  deponent  in  response  to  a  subpoena.  In  some  cases,  where  the 
number  of  exhibits  was  very  large,  the  House  Select  Committee  staff  chose  for 
inclusion  in  the  Depositions  volumes  selected  documents.  All  of  the  original 


XXI 


exhibits  are  stored  with  the  rest  of  the  Select  Committees'  documents  with  the 
National  Archives  and  Records  Administration  and  are  available  for  public  in- 
spection subject  to  the  respective  rules  of  the  House  and  Senate. 

The  27  volumes  of  the  Depositions  appendix,  totalling  more  than  30,000  pages, 
consist  of  photocopies  of  declassified,  hand-corrected  typewritten  transcripts 
and  declassified  exhibits.  Deponents  appear  in  alphabetical  order. 


XXII 


Publications  of  the  Senate  and  House 
Select  Committees 


Report  of  the  Congressional  Committees  Investigating  the  Iran-Contra  Affair, 
1  volume,  1987. 

Appendix  A:  Source  Documents,  2  volumes,  1988. 
Appendix  B:  Depositions,  27  volumes,  1988. 
Appendix  C:  Chronology  of  Events,  1  volume,  1988. 
Appendix  D:  Testimonial  Chronology,  3  volumes,  1988. 

All  publications  of  the  Select  Committees  are  available  from  the  U.S. 
Government  Printing  Office. 


XXIII 


.1 


DOTSON 
MILTON 


UNCiffi 


\4or^  -l-'^\i>i 


DEPOSITION  OF  LANGHORNE  ANTHONY  MOTLEY 


Thursday,  June  25,  1987 


U.S.  House  of  Representatives, 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 
Arms  Transactions  with  Iran, 

Washington,  D.  C. 


The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  10:00  a.m., 
in  Room  B-352,  Rayburn  House  Office  Building,  Terry 
Smiljanich  presiding. 

On  behalf  of  the  Senate  Select  Committee:   Terry 
Smiljanich. 

On  behalf  of  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation: 
Timothy  E.  Traylor,  Special  Agent. 

On  behalf  of  the  Witness:   Richard  C.  Warmer, 
O'Melveny  &  Meyers,  1800  M  Street,  N.W.,  Washington,  D.  C. 
20036 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on    /-^-^^  -■f7 

under  provisions  of  E.O.  12355  3<3  ^l^ 

by  N.  K'anan,  National  Security  Council 


^OC^^ 


W/ilW/nrD 


{ 


(1) 


mmism 


1 

2  DEPOSITION  OF: 

3  Langhorne  Anthony  Motley 

4  By  Mr.  Smiljanich 
5 
6 
7 

e 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 
25 


CONTENTS 

PAGE 


UNCUissm 


\immm 


I         Whereupon, 


LANGHORNE  ANTHONY  MOTLEY 

3  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  previously  duly 

4  sworn,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

5  EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF 

g  THE  SENATE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

J  BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    State  your  full  name  for  the  record. 
A    Langhorne ,  L-a-n-g-h-o-r-n-e ,  Anthony,  last  name, 
Motley,  M-o-t-l-e-y. 

Q    You  served  as  Assistant  Secretary  for  Inter- 
American  Affairs  in  the  Department  of  State  for  a  period 
of  time;  is  that  correct? 
A    That's  correct. 

Q    Give  us  the  date  of  your  tenure  as  Assistant 
Secretary. 

A    It  was,  as  I  recall,  the  first  week  of  July  of 
'83  through  the  1st  of  July  of  '85. 

Q    Just  prior  to  that,  you  had  been  Ambassador 
to,  I  believe,  Bolivia? 
A    Brazil. 
Q    What  were  the  years  you  were  Ajnbassador  to 

Brazil? 

A     1981  to  July  3,  1983. 

Q    Could  you  give  us  a  quick  rundown  of  the 


8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


ii&iAi  inoirirn 


Uliii&SiyflED 


'    background  of  your  educational  experience? 
2        A    Yes.   I  was  born  and  raised  in  Rio  de  Janeiro, 
^    Brazil.   My  father  owned  an  oil  company  there.   I  went  to 
*    college  there.   I  graduated  in  1960  with  a  degree  in 

5  political  science.   I  went  into  the  Air  Force  shortly 

6  •      thereafter  as  a  regular  officer,  and  spent  ten  years  in 

7  the  Air  Force.   My  assignment  was  two  years  in  Panama, 

8  three  years   in  Alaska  and  two  years  between  Texas  and 

9  Alabama. 

10  In  1970,  I  resigned  my  commission  as  a  regular 

11  officer,  and  I  entered  the  real  estate  development  business 

12  in  Alaska. 

13  In  1975,  I  entered  the  state  government  as  a 

14  commissioner,  which  was  Secretary  of  the  Department  of 

15  Commerce,  subsequently  Commerce  and  Economic  Development. 

16  I  served  in  that  position  for  two  years,  the  period  the 

17  pipeline  was  being  built.  In  January  of  1978,  I  resigned 

18  ""y  position,  with  a  handful  of  people  formed  a  non-profit 

19  organization  called  Citizens  for  Management  of  Alaskan 
Lands. 

Congress  at  that  time  was  undertaking  the 
Alaska  lands  issue,  which  was  in  essence  a  planning  and 
zoning  effort  on  all  the  Federal  lands  in  Alaska.   That 
was  supposed  to  last  six  weeks;  it  lasted  four  years. 
So  I  lived  in  Anchorage  and  worked  in  Washington  for  four 

IIKIPI  Accinrn 


mmsm 


I 

2 

3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


years,  a  rather  long  commute. 

That  issue  was  over  virtually  in  the  waning 
days  of  *80.   I  returned  to  Alaska.   In  September  of  '81, 
after  having  been  nominated  by  the  President  and  confirmed 
by  the  Senate,  I  went  to  Brazil  as  U.S.  Ambassador. 

In  May  of  "83,  I  was  approached  about  possibly 
taking  over  as  Assistant  Secretary,  a  va/cancy. 

Q    Your  predecessor  was  Tom  Enders? 

A     Yes. 

Q    Go  ahead. 

A    And  on  short  notice,  I  left  Brazil,  resigned 
as  Ambassador,  and  came  back  and  took  over  in  July  of 
•83. 

Q    What  is  your  current  occupation? 

A    I  have  a  company  called  L.  A.  Motley  s  Co., 
which  is  a  corporation.   We  deal  in  foreign  trade  and 
investment  matters,  both  U.S.  interests  overseas,  foreign 
■  interests  to  the  United  States,  and  in  some  cases,  totally 
third-party  interests  involving  the  U.S. 

Q    Now,  when  you  became  Assistant  Secretary  in  July 
of  1983,  what  was  the  existing  structure  of  the  Department  - 
or,  perhaps  you  can  tell  us  what  you  did  in  terms  of  the 
organization  of  the  Bureau  when  you  came  into  it. 

A    All  right.   Well,  the  responsibility  as  Assistant 


Secretary  for  I 


1lf^TE!!ir(FI1 


vers  formulating 


UNKASMD 


1  and  implementing  foreign  policy,  broadly  speaking,  relations 

2  of  the  United  States  with  33  countries,  everything  south  of 

3  the  Rio  Grande  River.   That  includes  some  26  embassies, 
^  and  I  don't  know  how  many  posts. 

5  Obviously,  the  focus  at  that  time  was  the  Central 

6  '  American  issue.   The  structure  of  the  State  Department  is 

7  such  the  regional  assistant  secretaries  report  directly  to 

8  the  Secretary.   That  is  the  chain  of  command. 

9  The  Bureau  is  so  structured  on  both  a  functional 

10  and  geographic  basis,  and  each  assistant  secretary  has  his 

11  own  management  style.   I  chose  to  break  the  Bureau  into 

12  five  deputy  assistant  secretaries  and  realign  the  offices 

13  and  tasks  along  those  lines.   They  were  both  functional 

14  and  geographical:   Central  America,  South  America  and  the 

15  Caribbean.   Brazil  and  Mexico  kind  of  acted  on  their  own 

16  because  they  are  just  big  enough  they  didn't  fit  under  this 

17  although  the  deputy  assistant  secretary  for  South  America 

18  had  responsibilities  for  Brazil. 

19  I  then  had  a  deputy  assistant  secretary  that 

20  would  cover  the  operational,  administrative  area,  and  you 

21  had  another  one  that  covered  the  equivalent  —  equivalent 

22  position  which  covered  the  economic  and  financial  aspects, 

23  because,  although  Central  America  was  number  one  in  the 
J.  headlines  as  far  as  most  people  would  think  about,  the 

issue  that  had  come  to  a  head  was  a  deeper  but  not  so 


25 


ONfiUMKD 


'    visible  problem. 
^        Q    Who  was  your  deputy  assistant  secretary  for 
Central  American  Affairs? 

A     It  was  Craig  Johnstone. 
Q    Was  he  a  career  serviceman? 
A     Yes. 
'         Q    Your  senior  deputy  assistant  secretary  was  who? 

8  A    Was  Jim  Michaels. 

9  Q    Was  there  in  existence  when  you  became  assistant 

10  secretary  a  restricted  interagency  group  dealing  with 

11  Latin  American  Affairs? 

12  A    There  was  both  an  IG  and  a  subpart  of  that,  an 

13  RIG.   They  were  not  separate  but  contractions  of  one  to 

14  the  other. 

15  Q    Could  you  expand  on  that  a  little  bit?   What  was 

16  in  place? 

17  A    What  was  in  place  was  both  an  IG  --  I  served  as 

18  chairman.   The  main  players  by  agencies  were  as  follows: 

19  Department  of  State,  myself  as  chairman  --  I'll  go  through 

20  the  agencies  first.   The  Department  of  State,  the  Office 
2)    of  the  Secretary  of  Defense,  the  Chairman  of  the  Joint 

Chiefs  of  Staff,  the  Central  Intelligence  Agency,  the 
National  Security  Council.   These  were  the  main  players. 


2.  Now,  the  IG  as  such,  which  was  ongoing  throughout, 

25    would  include  representatives  from,  depending  on  the  issue, 

Ulllll_ii>nirirn 


^mrnm 


8 


1  Agriculture,  Commerce,  USTR,  Treasury  and  other  agencies. 

2  For  instance,  when 'we  looked  at  the  economic  sanctions,  on 

3  whether  or  not  to  impose  sanctions  on  Nicaragua,  when  you 

4  looked  at  how  do  you  implement  the  Jackson  Plan  as  it  was 

5  being  developed,  after  it  is  developed,  how  do  you  implement 

6  it,  this  is  something  all  these  agencies  -- 

7  Q    In  other  words,  it  would  expand  from  the  Central 

8  depending  on  the  issues  it  was  dealing  with? 

9  A    Yes. 

10  Q    How  did  the  RIG  fit  into  this? 

11  a'    The  RIG  was  essentially  the  five  main  players. 

12  It  would  differentiate  whether  it  was  an  IG  or  RIG  by 

13  mainly  the  cut-off.   The  normal  RIG  was  the  five  agencies. 

14  On  other  occasions,  others  would  come  to  it  depending  — 

15  the  RIG  was  mainly  the  five  agencies  represented. 

15         Q    Now,  during  your  tenure  as  assistant  secretary, 
let's  go  down  the  five  central  players  and  get  a  listing 
of  the  people,  not  a  comprehensive  listing,  but  the  people 
who  would  normally  attend  or  have  an  open  invitation  to 
attend  a  RIG  meeting  starting  with  the  State  Department. 

A    I  would  be  the  chair,  Craig  Johnston  more  likely 
would  be  the  deputy  assistant  secretary,  Jim  Michaels  was 
there  quite  often,  on  occasion  another  deputy  assistant 
secretary  by  the  name  of  Tony  Gillespie,  because  he  had 
operation  responsibilities,  liaison  with  the  Intelligence 

iikini  *POinrn 


mmsm 


Cominunities  for  my  Bureau,  and  under  Craig  Johnstone  ,  the 
office  director  for  Central  America,  Shawn  Smith,  also  a 
Foreign  Service  Officer. 

Within  the  State  Department  at  different  times, 
depending  on  the  issues,  you  might  have  a  representative 
from  INR,  you  might  have  a  representative  from  a  political 
military  bureau,  and  one,  on  a  rare  occasion,  may  be  more 
than  one,  but  rare,  the  Office  of  Public  Policy. 

Q    At  that  time,  was  that  Otto  Reich? 

A     That's  right. 

Q    With  regard  to  INR's  presence  on  the  RIG,  would 
their  involvement  be  in  connection  with  --  for  example,  if 
you  all  were  talking  about  covert  operations  in  Central 
America,  is  that  something  that  INR  would  usually  partici- 
pate in? 

A    After  a  period  of  time.   Initially  that  wasn't 
correct  and  then  for  a  variety  of  reasons,  the  Secretary 
decided  that  he  wanted  to  restructure  the  overall  covert 
activities  in  which  he  put  all  of  that  in  the  hands  —  at 
his  level  —  in  the  hands  of  Under  Secretary  Mike  Armacost. 
Mike  Armacost  then  looked  to  INR,  because  they  do  have  a 
charter  for  liaison  with  the  Intelligence  Committees  on 
covert  actions  that  come  from  within  the  Central  Intelli- 
gence Agency,  within  the  rubric  of  liaison  with  the  Intelli- 
gence Community.   So  depending  on  how  strongly  they  felt 

IIMPI  aooinrn 


10 


wmmm 


10 


'  about  coming  or  not  coming,  and  the  issues,  they  came  to 

2  the  meetings. 

>»  From  an  operational  sense,  there  is  always  a 

*  healthy  friction  between  geographic  bureaus  and  functional 

5  bureaus.   It  is  the  normal  rub  and  pull  that  happens. 

6  ,       Q    Would  it  be  fair  to  say  INR  was  not  a  rare 

7  participant?  / 

8  A    Well,  throughout  the  whole  period  of  time  there 

9  was  probably  a  period  of  time  of  almost  a  year  they  didn't 

10  participate;  then  after  that,  they  would  participate  in  -- 

11  yes,  they  were  more  than  rare.   But  in  the  first  year,  they 

12  didn't  participate. 

13  Q    All  right.   But  in  your  last  year,  let's  say 

14  July  of  '84  to  July  of  '85,  they  were  a  fairly  regular 

15  participant  in  the  RIG  meetings,  weren't  they? 

16  A     Yes. 

17  Q    Who  usually  would  attend  from  INR? 

18  A    McNeil  when  he  came  back  into  that  job,  was  the 
)9  major  person  to  come  in. 

20  Q    Let  me  put  it  another  way,  too.   Would  it  be  fair 

21  to  say  that  you  certainly,  and  during  your  tenure  as 
assistant  secretary,  did  not  exclude  INR,  specifically 
exclude  INR  from  participation  in  the  RIG? 

A    That  is  correct.   I  wouldn't  necessarily  overly 


encourage  it,  but  I  wouldn't  exclude  it.   Now,  the  reason 

UWPI  AOOirirn 


11 


\ivimmi\i 


11 


is  this.   INR  serves  a  very  useful  function:   Being  the 
Secretary's  intelligence  analyst  of  situations,  and  he 
would  draw  on  them  and 'we  would  draw  on  them.   Whereas  a 
function  of  the  RIG  was  to  analyze  the  situation,  it  also 
was  a  policy  formulation,  and,  as  in  any  bureaucratic  forum, 
you  want  to  make  sure  the  guy  stays  in  the  position  in  which 
he  was  posted.   There  wasn't  any  friction  between  Mike  and 
I;  we  understood  each  other  perfectly.   If  they  felt  a  need 
to  participate,  fine. 

Q    INR  brought  a  certain  expertise  within  their 
field  to  the  RIG  meetings;  is  that  right? 

A    In  what  manner? 

Q    Their  expertise  in  connection  with  their 
familiarity  with  intelligence  matters,  covert  operations, 
matters  such  as  that.   Isn't  that  what  they  would  bring 
to  the  RIG? 

A    At  that  stage  of  the  game,  I  can't  attest  as  to 
how  much  INR  knew  about  the  methodology  of  covert  opera- 
tions.  I  assume  it  was  something,  but  it  wasn't  evidenT*" 
to  me  because  I  didn't  deal  with  them  on  that  basis. 

What  they  brought  was,  I  thought,  the  synthesizing 
analytical  situation  of  the  intelligence  that  dealt  with 
what  is  the  situation  in  Iran.   They  spent  an  inordinate 
amount  of  their  time,  for  instance,  with  the  guys  at  DEA, 
CIA  trying  to  figure  out  how  many  contras  there  were,  how 

IIMi 


12 


UNI^imfD 


11 


'  much  Russian  equipment  was,  military  equipment,  was  getting 

^  in  and  this  kind  of  stuff.   It  was  a  very,  very  difficult 
job,  and  there  are  always  differences  of  opinion. 
I  saw  their  focus  as  in  that  respect. 

^  Q    What  was  your  opinion  of  Frank  McNeil's  expertise 

®  i  in  that  area,  in  this  field? 

7  A    McNeil  is  a  first-class  officer.   He  has  got  a 

8  good  analytical  mind.   He  has  familiarity  with  intelligence 

9  sources  and  methods.   He  has  an  ability  to  gauge,  I  think, 

10  good  judgment  of  credibility,  credence  you  put  on  different 

11  sources.   He  also  brought  to  the  table  an  understanding 

12  of  Central  America. 

13  Q    You  got  along  well  with  Ambassador  McNeil;  is 

14  that  correct? 

15  A    Yes.   He  is  a  very  good  officer.   He  is  feisty. 

16  He  and  I  understood  each  other. 

17  Q    Assistant  Secretary  Abrauns  was  your  successor ; 

18  is  that  correct? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  Q    Now,  Assistant  Secretary  Abrams  stated  to  us 

21  that  his  perception  was  when  he  became  assistant  secretary 

22  that  INR  did  not  attend  at  all  RIG  meetings  and  never 

23  attended  RIG  meetings  at  any  time. 

24  Now,  that  was  a  false  perception;  is  that 

25  correct? 

II UAini  APPinrn 


13 


"NiSKf 


U 


12 


A    Well,  let  me  just  tell  you,  you  asked  me  the 
question.   They  were  a  regular  participant  in  the  last  year. 
I  don't  know  what  Elliott  based  his  perception  on. 

Q    Obviously  that  was  a  false  perception. 

My  question  is,  did  you  and  he  have  any  discus- 
sions when  he  came  in  to  become  assistant  secretary  about 
the  organization  of  the  RIG  and  the  participation  of  INR? 

A    To  my  recollection,  no.   As  you  and  I  discussed 
before,  the  transition  between  Elliott  and  I  followed  to 
a  certain  degree  the  same  transition  I  experienced  with 
Tom  Enders.   What  I  did  with  Elliott  is  the  day  the  Presi- 
dent made  an  announcement  of  his  appointment,  I  took  him 
through  the  whole  Bureau  to  meet  everybody.   I  sat  down  with 
Jim  Michaels  and  the  rest  of  the  staff  and  said,  "There  is 
a  briefing  being  set  up  for  Elliott."   I  told  Elliott  that 
I  would  be  available  to  answer  any  questions  you  would  want 
in  any  area,  but  I  wasn't  going  to  impose  myself  in  the 
middle  of  his  briefing,  and  then  I  went  on  to  run  the 
Bureau. 

Elliott  and  I  did  not  have  to  any  extent  --  he 
may  have  asked  isolated  questions,  but  I  don't  recall  any 
in-depth  discussion  of  whether  INR  participated  or  not. 
It  may  have  happened,  but  I  don't  remember. 

Q     It  would  be  fair  to  say,  wouldn't  it,  that  one 
of  your  primary  misauM:;^^  jiuring  your  tenure  as  assistant 


>apM:;^£  ^uring  your  tenure 

JlolJSifirn 


14 


iifi&mmB 


13 


1  secretary  was  to  attempt  to  get  Congress  and  the  public  to 

2  support  the  administration  policy  in  Central  America? 

3  A    I  probably  spent  more  time  on  that  one  issue  than 

4  all  the  rest  of  them  combined. 

5  Q    Now,  in  mid  1984,  the  new  legislation  imposed  a 

6  cut-off  of  funds  for  -- 

7  A    You  are  talking  about  October  — 

6        Q    I'm  talking  about  October  1,  Boland  II,  I  think 
9    it  is  referred  to  at  times. 

10  When  that  law  came  into  effect  --  first  of  all, 

11  it  didn't  come  as  a  complete  surprise,  did  it?   You  all 

12  were  expecting  something  like  this  to  perhaps  be  coming 

13  down  the  pike? 

14  A    What  we  had  learned  to  expect  is  that  you  had 

15  an  ebb  and  flow  in  the  degrees  of  congressional  support. 
jg    I  think  what  I  have  found  from  my  perception  of  how  other 

people  view  this  thing,  outside  of  those  dealing  with  it 
at  the  time,  was  that  October,  '84,  Boland  Amendment  -- 
Q    Let's  stop. 
(Recess. ) 

BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 
Q    Go  ahead . 

A    So  there  was  always  a  constant  threat  of  a  change 
in  the  level  of  congressional  support  and/or  agreement 
with  the  Executive  Branch  which  way  to  go.   So  every  one 

liKin  Accinrn 


15 


mmm 


14 


of  these  watersheds,  periods  would  be  something  you  could 
say  it  could  go  bad  or  good. 

What  people  forget  is  that  almost  identical 
language  to  Boland  II  was  in  the  CR  that  was  in  conference 
in  October,  '83,  and  didn't  survive  the  Congress.   So  it 
wasn't  like  ho-hum  --  it  was  a  constant  battle  all  the 
time  trying  to  get  some  kind  of  parallel  or  perception  of 
what  the  Executive  Branch  wanted  to  do  or  Congress  was 
prepared  to  do. 

I'm  not  saying  Boland  II  was  not  a  significant 
piece  of  legislation.  What  I'm  saying,  this  battle  went 
on  all  the  time.  It  would  come  at  you  in  appropriations 
legislation,  there  were  tactics  on  both  sides. 

Q     It  would  be  fair  to  say,  wouldn't  it,  Boland  II 
didn't  blind-side  you  in  terms  of  knowing  there  was  a 
distinct  possibility  there  would  be  an  aid  cut-off? 

A    No,  it  didn't  blind-side  in  the  sense  of  a 
surprise.   It  inhibited  the  Executive  Branch's  ability  to 
carry  out  its  policy. 

Q    In  connection  with  that  serious  impact  it  would 
have  upon  administration  policy,  what  can  you  tell  us 
about  any  discussions  that  were  held  within  Government 
that  you  participated  in  dealing  with  preparation  for 
Boland  II  or  how  to  handle  it,  what  to  do? 

A    There  were  a  variety  of  discussions,  and  some 


llMPxmmm 


16 


\immEi> 


15 


'  of  the  discussions  took  place  in  the  Executive  Branch 

^  settings  also.   I  mean,  it  was  a  subject  that  if  this 

^  happens,  what  happens  type  of  thing. 

^  I  can  remember  Senator  Moynihan  on  a  variety  of 

^  occasions  in  the  Senate  Intelligence  Committee  saying  "you 

°  guys  are  going  to  have  to  issue  50,000  passports  here,  face 

7  up  to  it.   This  thing  is  going  to  get  cut  off,"  so  on  and 

8  so  forth.   So  it  was  a  subtle  understanding  but  it  was 

9  obvious  that  by  the  spring  of  '84,  those  moneys  that  had 

10  been  allocated,  authorized,  appropriated  by  Congress  for 

11  the  contras  was  getting  near  running  out. 

12  So  there  was  --  you  were  looking  at  a  short-term 

13  lack  of  resources.   In  addition  to  this,  it  was  obvious 

14  to  us  Congress  was  not  going  to  be  able  to  do  much  until 

15  the  CR.  It  happens  about  that  time.   So  there  was  discus- 

16  sion  back  and  forth. 

17  The  Agency,  the  Central  Intelligence  Agency, 

18  which  was  the  agency  in  charge,  did  briefings  to  the 

19  ;  Congress  saying,  "We  got  X  millions  of  dollars  amount; 

20  I  we  are  cutting  back  subsistence,  make  sure  these  guys  have 
2)  three  squares  a  day,"  and  this  kind  of  stuff. 

22  i  My  focus  was  to  attempt  to  get  a  favorable 

23  resolution.   I  can  tell  you  a  lot  of  people  came  up  in 
October,  '83.   Kind  of  dramatic  circumstances.   But  it  got 


done.   I  was  hopeful  we  could  do  it  again.   We  weren't. 

flMPI  AOCinrn 


17 


vmnmii 


16 


•  So  a  lot  of  my  focus  was  in  trying  to  get  the  legislation. 

2  Q    Well,  what  conclusions  were  reached  with  regard 

3  to  what  --  strike  that. 

*  I  understand  you  are  not  a  lawyer. 

5  A    That's  correct. 

6  ,       Q    But  it  was  part  of  your  job,  I  would  assume,  to 

7  reach  some  kind  of  conclusion  about  what  was  allowable 

8  and  what  wasn't  allowable  under  the  existing  circumstances 

9  once  Boland  II  came  into  effect? 

10  A     Post-Boland  II. 

11  Q  '   What  conclusions  did  you  reach  with  regard  to 

12  what  was  allowable  activity  in  connection  with  support  for 

13  the  contras? 

14  A    The  conclusion  that  I  reached,  obviously,  the 

15  law  in  my  mind  proscribed  the  State  Department,  among 

16  others,  giving  assistance,  indirect  assistance  to  them. 

j7    I  understood  that.   And  so  we  governed  our  actions  on  that 
basis. 

It  didn't  mean  we  didn't  keep  going  back  to 
Congress  trying  to  get  the  money.   But  I  understood  that 
we  were  not  to  engage  --  as  one  of  those  named  or  identified 
in  legislation  as  a  Government  agency  --  was  not  supposed 
to  directly  or  indirectly  assist  the  contras.   It's  kind 
of  a  broad  statement. 

Q     In  otheii  A/finds .  when  the  legislation  referred  to 


;ii«£>iiqs.  wnen  tne  iegisi. 


18 


uNulHooiitlD 


17 


'  the  CIA,  the  Department  of  Defense  and  any  other  agency 

^  engaged-  in  intelligence  activities,  you  understood  that  to 

'  include  the  State  Department  as  an  entity  that  was  not 

*  allowed  to  -- 

^        A    Absolutely. 

S  I       Q    --  allowed  to  engage  in  direct  or  indirect 

7  support  to  the  contras? 

8  A    Exactly. 

9  Q    In  fact,  along  that  line,  let  me  read  to  you 
10  a  quote  that's  attributed  to  you  during  a  hearing  before 
"  Congress.   According  to  this,  you  testified  at  the  time 

12  that  the  restriction  was  written  in  "pretty  plain  English 

13  no  money  should  be  spent  directly  or  indirectly  promoting 

14  the  contra  war.   The  message  was  just  stop."   That  is  not 

15  complicated,  and  it  is  not  micromanagement . 

16  A    I  don't  think  that  last  part  was  in  quotes. 

17  Q    I'm  sorry.   The  term  "micromanagement"  —  those 

18  are  not  your  words? 

19  A    No.   If  you  look  at  it  closely,  you  will  find  -- 

20  Q    Strike  that  question. 

21  A    I'll  tell  you  another  thing  in  regards  to  this. 

22  If  you  go  back  through  the  transcript,  you  will  find  that, 

23  a  not  unusual  event,  in  several  different  newspaper 

24  articles  there  is  a  juxtaposition.   I'm  not  saying  they 

25  are  taking  it  out  of  context  or  anything  else,  something 

iiuni  Aooirirn 


19 


\imm.\i 


18 


that  happened  on  page  96  would  be  added  to  something  that 
appears  on  97.   I'm  telling  you,  having  gone  back  and  read 
the  transcripts  after  reading  this,  if  you  want  to  read  off 
the  transcript,  fine. 

Q     Is  it  true  you  referred  to  the  Boland  II  amend- 
ment as  pretty  plain  English? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Let  me  back  up  for  a  second.   I  had  not  completed 
my  survey  of  the  RIG  and  the  usual  participants.   We  went 
through  the  people  at  the  State  Department.   Who  usually 
attended  from  the  Office  of  the  Secretary  of  Defense? 

A    Nestor  Sanchez,  who  was  deputy  assistant  secre- 
tary for  SIA. 

Q    And  the  Joint  Chiefs  of  Staff? 

A    Vice  Admiral  Burrough. 

Q    Off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Who  was  the  usual  participant  from  the  Agency? 

A    In  the  first,  through  about  the  summer  of  '84, 
late  summer,  maybe  early  fall  of  '84,  Duane  Clarridge. 

Q    And  after  that? 

A    After  that,  for  about  a  period  of  about  four 
or  five  months,  it  was  his  successor  in  charge  of  Latin 
America  on  the  DDO  side,  whose  name  escapes  me  right  now. 


O  side,  whose  name  escape 

IIMOI  AQQIEffll 


20 


a 

9 

to 
II 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


UNHBimo 


19 


1  Then  he  was,  towards  the  last  two  or  three  months  I  was 

2  there,  he  was  replaced  as  the  regular  participant  byl 

3  who  was  head  of  what  they  call  the  Central  America  Task 
Force . 

5  In  essence,  what  they  did  was,  I  believe,  and 

g  I  I  have  to  check  this,  but  I  believe  what  they  did  was  they 
y    gave  Dewey's  successor  responsibilities  for  all  Latin 

America  and  Central  America.   Even  though^^^^^ worked  for 
this  guy,  this  guy  was  put  more  --^^^^^|was  put  more  in 
Central  America. 

Q  -   Okay.   And  from  the  National  Security  Council, 
who  was  there? 

A    Several  at  different  times.   Probably  the  longest 
throughout  the  two-year  period  of  time,  the  most  regular 
participant  was  Oliver  North. 

Q    Who  else  would  sometimes  attend? 

A    There  would  be  Constantine  Menges ,  Jackie  Tillman, 
a  fellow,  it  was  a  State  Department  officer  -- 

Q    Ray  Burghardt? 

A    Ray  Burghardt.  I  think  that's  about  it.   There 
would  be  different  ones  in  and  out.   Each  had  different 
responsibilities.   It  was  kind  of  fuzzy  as  to  who  was  the 
real  NSC. 

Q    What  do  you  mean  by  that?   In  other  words,  who 
at  the  NSC  when  it  came  to  Latin  American  Affairs  and  when 


JINCUSSIflFn 


21 


BMSfflEO 


20 


specifically  came  to  matters  involving  the  Nicaraguan 
opposition  -- 

A    The  reason  I  say  it's  kind  of  fuzzy  is  that  RIG, 
you  should  understand,  covered  everything  in  Latin  America, 
not  just  Central  America.   It  would  depend  to  a  certain 
degree  what  the  issue  was,  and,  secondly,  whatever  the  issue 
was,  who  was  doing  what  to  whom. 

Q    When  the  RIG  dealt  with  Central  American  Affairs 
and  specifically  Nicaraguan  affairs,  did  you  have  a  clear 
understanding  as  to  the  division  of  responsibility  at  the 
NSC  staff  for  those  matters? 

A    I  had  a  clear  understanding  there  didn't  appear 
to  be  a  clear  division  of  responsibilities  in  NSC.   Every- 
body wanted  to  play  that  part. 

The  way  they  are  organized,  it  is  looser  and 
depends  on  whomever  has  been  internally  tasked.   It  is  not 
as  compartmentalized  as  our  operations  are. 

Q    Oliver  North  was  a  frequent  participant  at  the 
RIG  meetings? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Now,  going  back  to  where  I  had  left  off  when 
we  were  discussing  the  implementation  of  Boland  II  and 
your  activities  and  the  activities  of  the  Bureau  during 
that  time,  did  you  ever  have  any  discussions  with  Oliver 
North  about  his  understanding  of  what  Boland  II  allowed  and 


IIMPI  ACOinrn 


22 


msmm 


21 


1  didn't  allow? 

2  A  .   Yes.   I  had  one  discussion  with  him  in  my  office 

3  following  a  RIG  meeting,  the  time  I'm  not  sure,  but  it 

4  must  have  been  within  a  reasonably  short  period  of  time 

5  after  the  passage  of  Boland  II. 

6  1       Q    So  this  would  have  been  sometime  in  1984? 

7  A    Yes. 

8  Q    Go  ahead.   What  was  discussed  at  that  time? 
g         A    I  don't  know  how  the  subject  came  up  or  what 

JO    prompted  it,  but  I  brought  it  up,  and,  in  essence,  I  said 
|]    to  Ollie  that  I  felt  that  the  language  of  Boland  II  pro- 
J2    scribed  to  all  of  us  that  were  in  a  RIG  direct  or  indirect 
j3    support. 

j4  Ollie  said  --  let  me  strike  that.   He  said 

]5    the  NSC,  as  part  of  the  White  House,  is  not  an  intelli- 
jg    gence  agency.   I  think  I  was  more  surprised  by  the  comment 
j7    because  I  never  thought  of  it  in  that  context.   I  just 
fg    .never  thought  it  through.   I  just  assvimed  it,  and  I 

didn't  —  so  in  my  surprise,  I  said,  Well,  that's  some- 
thing I  hadn't  thought  of  and  he  might  have  wanted  to 
seek  appropriate  counsel  on  that  subject.   That  was  the 
end  of  the  discussion. 

Q    He  indicated  to  you  that  he  did  not  feel  that 
Boland  II  applied  to  his  activities  at  the  NSC  because 
the  NSC  was  not  fl^flSiiffy  engaged  in  intelligence  -- 


23 


|)N60S8»ttD 


22 


A  Right. 

Q     You  were  somewhat  surprised? 

A    I  never  thought  about  it  in  that  context.   I 
wasn't  disputing  his  assertion. 

Q    But  you  weren't  agreeing  with  it  either? 

A    No.   I  was  surprised  by  it.   Once  having  been 
surprised,  I  didn't  quote  People  v.  Schwartz  and  shoot 
down  his  argument. 

Q    You  suggested  to  him  he  might  want  to  seek  legal 
counsel  on  that? 

A  '    Yes.   It  wasn't  my  ]ob  to  tell  him  what  his  job 
description  was. 

Q    Did  he  tell  you  he  had  obtained  any  kind  of 
legal  counsel  on  the  issue? 

A    I  don't  recall. 

Q    Now,  in  connection  with  what  could  or  couldn't 
be  done  in  view  of  Boland  II,  were  there  any  discussions 
that  you  participated  in  or  heard  of  concerning  whether 
or  not  private  American  groups  could  fill  the  breach  in 
Central  America  given  the  inability  of  the  Government  to 
use  appropriated  funds? 

A    Well,  even  before  the  cut-off,  it  was  e>7ident 
if  by  nothing  else  than  reading  the  papers  that  there  were 
private  groups  in  the  United  States  that  felt  strongly 
enough  about  the  issue  to  supply  money,  goods  many  times. 

llMniJOPinrn 


24 


limtmii 


23 


Through  that  period  of  time  from  when  I  got  there  until 
before  Boland,  there'  were  groups  that  would  gather  Christmas 
toys  or  food  and  bandages.   In  fact,  there  was  an  issue  that 
came  out  in  the  paper  recalling  congressional  inquiries  in 
regard  to  National  Guard  airplanes  on  missions  going  there 
taking  some  of  this  stuff.   It  was  a  subject  --  and,  at 
the  same  time,  there  were  private  groups  supporting  the 
Sandinista  position. 

Were  there  private  efforts?   Yes,  we  were  aware 
of  such.   I  was  aware  of  it  from  reading  the  newspapers. 

Q    I  understand  that.   My  question  specifically, 
though,  is  whether  or  not  there  were,  any  discussions  about 
turning  to  these  groups  to  engage  in  activities  the 
Government  was  now  proscribed  from  doing. 

A    Your  phrase  "turning  to,"  I'm  not  trying  to 
nit-pick.   Your  question  might  imply  the  Government  then 
says.  Okay,  we  have  to  ge  here,  we  have  to  go  here. 

Q    That's  what  I'm  suggesting. 

A    So  in  that  context,  the  answer  is  no. 

Q    Okay. 

A    There  were  obviously  discussions  the  money  was 
drying  up  and  there  wasn't  going  to  be  any  and  somehow 
these  guys  had  to  live,  sure.   It  is  obvious. 

Q     But  — 

A  They  were   undertaking^hgli^a\«iBfeund-raising 


WiKWff 


25 


msMB 


24 


t 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 

e 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 

•7 
18 
19 
20 
2t 
22 
23 
24 
25 


efforts . 

Q     I  understand.   But  there  was  no,  to  your  knowledge, 
unconscious  decision  to  have  people  in  the  Government  such 
as  Oliver  North  deal  directly  with  these  private  groups 
to  see  to  it  that  they  did  things  in  furtherance  of  our 
policy  in  Central  America  because  the  Government  could  no 
longer  engage  in  those  activities;  a  conscious  decision  to 
do  it  rather  than  simply  knowing  they  were  already  doing 
it? 

A    I  was  unaware  of  any  conscious  decision  or 
discussion . 

Q    Did  you  have  any  perception  that  Lieutenant 
Colonel  North  had  any  connection  with  private  groups  opera- 
ting in  Central  America? 

A    Colonel  North  had  strong  feelings  on  the  issue 
of  the  contras  and  the  role  they  played.   The  rest  of 
us  did  --  all  of  us  felt  strongly.   Anybody  who  examined 
.that  policy  from  the  Elxecutive  Branch  --  I'll  tell  you  my 
feelings . 

I  felt  that  the  presence  of  the  contras  was 
fundamental  to  carrying  out  the  purpose  of  the  policy. 
I  consider  the  contras  as  an  instrument  of  U.S.  national 
policy.   I  will  let  every  other  guy  describe  how  he  felt 
about  it.   I  think  that  --  so  I  felt  strongly  about  it. 
I  think  Colonel  North  also  felt  strongly  about  it  as  part 


iiMPI  AQ^iCICn 


26 


10 


\iwmB 


25 


'  of  the  policy,  and  also  as  part  of  an  entity,  a  group 

^  per  se .   A  differentiation  between  the  two. 

^        Q    But  my  specific  question  is  whether  or  not  you 

had  any  perception  beyond  that  about  his  connection  with  -- 
^        A    I  think  it  would  be  fair  to  state  --  knowing  how 
*  :  strongly  he  felt  about  the  contras  as  an  entity  as  opposed 

'  to  a  policy,  I  would  not  have  been  surprised  if  he  had 

®  talked  with  people  and  been  in  contact  with  people  whose 

^  aims  were  to  raise  money  for  the  contras. 

If  you  see  Ollie  North  as  I  saw  him,  dedicated, 

"  a  person  with  strong  feeling  on  the  issue,  it  would  not 

'2  be  unusual  for  him  to  enter  into  that  kind  of  discussion,  . 

13  contacts. 

14  Q    But  were  you  aware,  did  you  have  any  specific 

15  knowledge  of  his  involvement? 

16  A     No.   No. 

J7         Q    There  has  been  public  testimony  now  before  both 

18  committees  relating  to  what  other  witnesses  have  said  about 

19  Colonel  North's  activities  during  --  let  me  take  the  time 

20  frame  of  mid-1984  to  mid-1985  when  you  were  assistant 

21  secretary  for  Latin  American  Affairs,  in  which  witnesses 

22  have  alleged  Colonel  North  passed  military  intelligence  to 

23  the  contras,  had  a  supply  of  Traveler's  checks  in  his 

24  office  and  made  payments  to  contra  leaders.   It  is  fair 

25  to  say  you  were  not  aware  of  any  of  those  activities  of 


lot  aware  of  any  of  those 


27 


19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


DimStKD 


26 


1  Colonel  North? 

2  A    1  knew  nothing  about  Traveler's  checks.   With 

3  regard  to  the  issue  of  passing  intelligence,  it  wasn't 

4  in  Colonel  North's  30b  description  to  do  that. 

5  Throughout  this  whole  period  of  time,  there  was 

6  always  an  issue  about  sharing  intelligence  or  not.   Congress 

7  later  clarified  that  point:   The  conduit  for  passing  that 

8  intelligence  goes  through  the  Central  Intelligence  Agency. 

9  If,  in  fact,  the  decision  was  made  or  not  made,  that  was 
10    the  conduit  to  do  it. 

ft  To  aiwer  your  question,  the  answer  is  no. 

12  Q  Certainly  it  was  your  perception  it  would  not 
be  in  any  event  part  of  Colonel  North's  job  description 
to  be  the  conduit  for  military  intelligence  to  the  contras? 

A    That's  correct.   With  the  caveat  I  don't  write 
his  job  description  nor  give  him  his  instructions. 

^^         Q    I'm  just  talking  about  your  perception  of  the 

fg    matter. 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Again  on  the  same  topic  of  general  discussions 
about  what  Boland  meant  and  what  could  or  couldn't  be  done, 
d"3you  recall  that  --  this  would  have  been  when  James  Baker 
was  Chief  of  Staff,  before  he  became  Secretary  of  Treasury. 
DO  you  recall  Jim  Baker  being  very,  very  clear  and  emphatic 
in  his  opinion  about  the  Boland  |mgD<ta|at,  that  it  was  clear 


28 


17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


UlffiSISSinED 


27 


1  to  him  there  could  be  no  involvement  of  any  of  the  Govern- 

2  ment  agencies  with  the  contras  during  the  cut-off  period? 

3  A    What  sticks  in  my  mind  is  a  statement  made  by 

4  then  Chief  of  Staff  Jim  Baker  at  a  meeting  in  the  Situation 

5  Room  at  the  White  House.   Obviously  it  had  something  to  do 

6  with  Latin  America.   Otherwise,  why  would  I  be  there?   The 

7  matter  which  he  said  was,  as  much  as  we  might  not  like  the 

8  Boland  Amendment  and  what  it  did  as  far  as  cutting  down 
g  our  options,  the  facts  were  clear  the  U.S.  Government  had 

JO  to  stick  to  the  law.   I  can't  recall  --  I 'm^araphrasing 

f]  what  he  said  because  I^can't  recall  his  exact  words.   That 

12  was  the  impact  in  my  mind.   It  was  a  strong  statement. 

13  Q    That  was  the  time  Robert  McFarlane  was  National 

14  Security  Adviser;  is  that  correct? 

15  A    That's  correct. 
Ig         Q    Do  you  recall  Mr.  McFarlane  rendering  any  opinion 


or  did  you  have  any  impression  as  to  his  view  of  the 
matter? 

A    He  never  rendered  an  opinion  that  I  can  recall. 
And  I  never  discussed^it  with  him  at  length  other  than  the 
fact  thafc=we_would  have  empathized  how  difficult  it  made, 
or  how  we  -Xelt  how  detrimental  it  was  to  the  interest 
the  United  States  to  have  that  restriction.   I'm  not 
suggesting  that  he  was  fighting  -- 

Q     In  June  of  198  4,  there  was  an  nsPG  meeting 


stiof 


msmm 


29 


mmmw 


28 


which  --  I'm  not  suggesting  you  were  there,  I  don't  think 
you  were  --  an  NSPG  meeting  which  discussed  specifically 
the  possibility  of  going  to  third  countries  to  make  contri- 
butions or  render  aid  directly  to  the  contras  in  view  of 
the  U.S.  inability  to  do  so  because  of  the  aid  restrictions. 
Do  you  recall  there  being  discussions  up  to  the  NSPG  level 
of  that  matter  during  that  time  frame? 

A    That  subject  was  discussed.   Whether  it  was  June 
or  after  Boland  or  just  before  Boland,  I  don't  know,  but 
it  was  also  a  subject  of  congressional  inquiry. 

At  congressional  hearings  you  got  questions  asked 
before  that  period  of  time  on  the  subject  of  third 
countries .  ^ ' 

I  was  unaware  of  any  solicitation  made  to  any 
third  country  throughout  the  period  that  I  was  there. 

With  the  passage  of  Boland,  there  was  at  least, 
to  my  knowledge,  a  political  decision  made,  which  is  a 
sieve  below  a  legal  interpretation  of  Boland.   You  have 
two  sieves  if  you  operate  in  Government:   Should  you  do 
this  from  a  policy  or  political  aspect,  and  can  you  or 
can't  you  from  a  legal  aspect.   The  first  sieve  is  politi- 
cal.  In  my  mind  it  was  very  clear,  and  there  was,  if  not 
discussion,  implicit  instructions  from  the  Secretary  -- 
my  understanding  -- 

Q    You  mean  the  Secretary  of  State? 


nean  tne  Secretary  ot  Stat 


30 


oNciwiiiir 


29 


1  A    State.   That  for  political  reasons,  we  would  not 

2  solicit.   At  that  time  it  was  done  for  political  reasoning. 

3  The  reasoning  I  will  give  you  is  this.   As  I  see  it,  many 

4  of  the  countries  that  could  have  been  solicited  or  been 

5  contributors  were  recipients  of  foreign  aid,  U.S.  foreign 

6  aid.   You  didn't  have  to  be  clairvoyant  to  understand  sharp 

7  opponents  to  the  administration  policy  would  try  to  make 

8  the  case,  wait  a  minute,  you  guys  are  soliciting  from  these 

9  guys,  and  that  gets  out  in  the  record  and  clouds  the  issue. 
10    It  is  a  tough  one  to  say,  no,  I'm  not  mad,  type  of  approach. 
n  So  from  a  political  point  of  view  ■^'-  and  I  know, 

12  I  went  up  there  and  testified  on  the  issue  many  times,  I'm 

13  not  about  to  get  into  that.   I  didn't  think  it  served  us 

14  any  purpose  in  that  sense.   So  there  was  a  --  there  was 

15  no  doubt  in  my  mind  it  was  political.   It  was  a  political 

15    decision.   I  understood.   There  wouldn't  be  any  solicitations 

tj         made  by  the  Department  of  State. 

fg  I  was  only  concerned  about  the  Department  of 

State.   I  don't  mean  to  say  only  the  Department  of  State. 
Q    Let  me  madce  this  dear  now«a-  Later  in  thetij^ 
period,  in  mid  to*31Ke  1985,  Congress,_the  Department  ^E.. 
State  —  ^^ 

A    I  was  gone  by  then. 

Q    --  authorized  the  Department  of  State  to  solicit 
third  parties? 


UNCLASSIFIFn 


31 


vmsms 


30 


I  understand  that.   Before  that  specific  language 
in  the  legislation,  I'm  talking  about  that  time  frame,  I 
understood  that  the  Department  of  State  certainly  was  not 
going  to  be  .doing  this  activity,  soliciting  third  countries 
during  the  time  you  were  there;  is  that  correct? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Now,  did  you  also  have  an  understanding  that 
that  was  going  to  apply  to  other  part^  of  the  Government 
also,  such  as  the  NSC,  Department  of  Defense,  anyone  else? 
Were  there  discussions  about- whether  ottier  agencies  could 
or  could  t»t  do  ^at?        .'""   ^* 

A    No,  it  didn'Jt,  entez^n€^tae.„discussion .   I  just 
focused  on  the  Department  of  Si^ate.  ' 

There's  one  aspect  of  this  whole  issue,  donations 
and/or  solicitations  from  foreign  countries.   Another 
aspect  other  than  this,  you  are  not  going  to  deal  in  foreign 
aid  kind  of  thing.   There  are  several  countries  in  the  world 
that  have  a  competing  mirror  image.  North  Korea,  South 
Korea,  Taiwan,  the  Republic  of  China,  Israel,  the  Arab 
States,  North  Africa,  black  Africa.   Those  issues,  Zionism, 
other  issues  get  debated  ad  nauseum  at  forums  like  the 
United  Nations  and  other  places.   It  is  not  unusual  for 
the  countries  on  both  sides  of  that  issue  in  Latin  America 
to  go  around  and  try  to  win  friends,  because  Latin  America 
is  33  countries,  that's  33  votes.   Some  of  them  don't  have 

\\m  AQCinrn 


32 


wimsB 


31 


'    relations  with  different  ones.   So  it  is  hot  an  unusual 

2  event  to  find  one  or  the  other  of  these  countries  on  their 

3  own  motion,  if  you  would,  trying  to  curry  favors. 

*  I  can  give  you  examples  of  the  Republic  of  China 

5  going  to  the  Island  of  Dominique  wanting  to  erect  a  cultural 

6  ,  center  and  do  all  kinds  of  things.   What  is  the  national 

7  interest  of  the  Republic  of  China  and  the  Island  of 

6    Dominique?   I  just  point  this  out  to  you  because  I  think 
9    in  this  whole  thing  of  solicitation,  it  is  in  their  self- 

10    interest  to  do  those  kinds  of  things. 

Jl  Again,  it  gets  kind  of  fuzzy.   It  is  an  aspect 

12  many  people  use.   I  see  it  in  Guyana,  Surinam^  the 

13  Republic  of  China,  Taiwan,  each  trying  to  vie  -- 

14  Q    Were  there  any  discussions  about  the  second 

15  sieve  concerning  third-country  solicitation,  that  is 

16  whether  it  could  be  done,  whether  it  was  legal? 

17  AX  don't  recall  any  specific  legal  debate, 

fg    discussion  of  the  issue  because  from  my  mind,  that  first 
fg    sieve  had  been  passed  so  you  didn't  have  to  go  to  the 
2Q    second  sieve.   I  don't  remember  any,  "let's  write  a  legal 
memorandum,  let's  have  a  meeting  to  discuss  the  legal 
aspects."   I  don't  remember  that  aspect  of  this  thing. 
The  first  sieve  stopped  so  you  just  go  on  to 
the  second  one.   I  think  in  most  people's  minds,  if  they 


thought  about  it,  tah^.wfliAlc^  aia^i.|-_j  =;-flijestionable  . 


33 


UIWt4J^ED 


32 


0    Now,  you  were  not  aware  of  any  solicitations 
made  either  by  the  Department  of  State  or  any  other  entity 
of  Government  during  your  tenture  as  assistant  secretary? 
A     That's  right. 

Q  So  if^^^^^Hwas  approached  and  contributed 
S2  million  in  1984,  that  is  something  you  are  totally 
unaware  of. 

A    Absolutely. 

Q    And  you  were  not  aware  of  any  discussions  that 
Colonel  North  may  have  had  witt 

^^^^^^^^las  to  use  false  or  end-user 
certificates  for^^^^^^^^lin  an  attempt  to  get  aid  to 
the  contras?   You  were  not  aware  of  any  approaches 
made  to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hon 
A    No.   There  is  only  one  incident,  the  specifics 
of  which  I  don't  recall,  and  I  believe  it  wasl 
the  NSC,  in  an  unusual  procedure  sent  a  cable  to  the 
ambassador,  Michaels  can  give  you  more  specifics  on  this 
and  Craig  Johnstone  --  instructions,  as  I  recall,  by  cable 
inform^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^f^for         from 
^^^^^^^^^^^H  something  to  do  with  arms  coming  to 
^^^^^^^H   I  think  it  may  have  involved  different  --  I'm 

even  sure    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|r 
ring  a  bell.   It  may  have  been  some  other  --  when  we 
became  aware  of  that,  we  instructed  the  ambassador  to 


34 


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mmsm 


33 


disregard  that  cable,  not  carry  out  those  instructions  -- 

Q    Did  you  do  this  by  further  cable? 

A    No,  we  did  this  orally  by  secure  telephone.   And 
then  went  back  to  the  NSC  and  pointed  out  to  them,  in  our 
opinion,  I  think  in  that  case  it  was  a  violation  of  the 
Export  Control  Act. 

You  said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.  ever 

remember^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand      probably 
not  be  a  violation  of  the  Export  Control  Act,  but  you 
mentioned^^^^^^^^Hand  it  rang  a  bell. 

Q    What  was  the  time  frame,  do  you  recall?   '84, 
'85? 

A    I  think  it  must  have  been  '84  sometime.   But 
the  NSC  backed  off  and  that  was  the  end  of  that. 


Who  at 


le  J^i^Has  doing  tlis?  1^# 


A^^    ^m'liot^  sure .   I  can't,  I  think  McFarlane  made 
the  final  decision  to  back  eff.   I  can't  speak  as  to  whether 
he  was  involved  —  I  mean,  we  get  into  this  thing  halfway, 
the  ainbassador  says  I  have  a  cable  -- 

Q    Something  he  got  directly  from  NSC? 

A    Right.   Michaels  or  Johnstone  can  give  you  more 
specifics . 

Q    Was ^^^^^^^^^^^^H the  ambassador  then? 

A    I  really  don't  remember.   It  may  have  been 
his  predecessor. 


ilfclCliSMD 


35 


UNfietSSfflED 


34 


It  was  an  unusual  procedure.   Ambassadors  receive 
their  instructions  from  the  Secretary  of  State.   Ambassadors 
are  ambassadors  for  all  the  United  States,  the  President's 
personal  representative. 

The  way  instructions  normally  goes  is  from  the 
Secretary  of  State,  and  it  is  unusual  and  I  think  in  rare 
exceptions  unhealthy  for  ambassadors  to  be  receiving 
instructions  from  Africa  or  whatever. 

Q    You  were  not  aware  of  any  contributions  by  the 
Iduring  your  tenure? 

No .  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^V some- 
body will  say ^^^^^^^^H were  --  you  know,  a  congressional 
question  that  says,  all  right,  di^^^^^^^^B?^^^  money 
to^^^^^ 

Q    You  had  no  personal  knowledge? 
A    No.   I  found  out  the  guy  was  putting  up  a 
million  dollars  a  month.   It  came  as  a  great  surprise  to 
me. 

I  'm  almost  done. 


36 


mmm 


1 

2 

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25 


Q    Let  me  just  ask  you,  did  you  take  any  trips  to 
Central  America  with  Colonel  North? 

A    I  don't  think  so.   The  trips  I  took  to  Central 
America  were  either  solo  or  Harry  Slaughterman.   On  one 
occasion  I  went  to  Cap  Weinberger.   I  don't  think  --  I 
can't  remember  whether  Ollie  was  on  that  trip  or  not. 
But  I  took  no  other  trips. 

Q    I  know  all  of  the  activity,  all  the  testimony 
that  has  been  developed  so  far  in  connection  with  this 
secret  airstrip  in  northern  Costa  Rica  all  took  place  after 
your  tenure  as  assistant  secretary.   My  question  is  simply: 

IIMPI  ftocicirn 


37 


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2 
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sl 

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II 

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UNOUSSiED 


36 


When  you  --  given  your  involvement  in  Latin  American  Affairs 
and  your  tenure  as  assistant  secretary,  candidly  what  was 


your  reaction  when  you  read  about  this  secret  a 


irstripJ 


northern  Costa  Rica?   What  was  your  reaction? 
A     If  somebody  had  asked  me  whether  we  would  be 
able  to  do  that,  my  answer  would  have  been  no.   So  from 
that  point  of  view,  I  thought  it  was  a  significant  event 
in  that  sense. 

I  always  got  the  feeling  the  Costa  Ricans  were 
short  of  that  kind  of  visible  support.   The  Costa  Ricans 
have  kind  of  a  different,  paradoxical  relations  view  of 
Nicaragua. 

If  you  run  a  poll  in  Costa  Rica  today  and  ask 
the  question,  who  do  you  hate  the  most,  Somoza  or  the 
Sandinistas,  they  would  say  Somoza. 

Ask  a  second  question:   Who  do  you  fear  the  most? 
.Overwhelmingly  the  Sandinistas.   Because  Somoza  didn't 
have  any  territorial  --  there  was  a  revolution  without 
frontiers,  any  of  this  stuff.   These  guys  worry  about 
that.   It  is  a  very  convoluted  feeling  they  have. 

Q    Well,  would  you  agree  with  this  statement: 
A  covert  airstrip  being  used  or  going  to  be  used  to  help 
resupply  the  contras  in  Nicaragua  located  in  northern 
Costa  Rica  with  the.knpwledgejDt^  aad.5fliae  participation 


he   knowledge _of  and. some 


38 


3 


mmmn 


37 


'    by  the  American  embassy  in  Costa  Rica  and] 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|is  extreme 

with  regard  to  U.S. -Costa  Rican  bilateral  relations? 
*   Would  you  agree  with  that? 

5  A    I  would  deem  the  most  significant  aspect  of  that 

6  .  question,  that  statement  is  the  effect  it  has  when  it  becomes 

7  public. 

8  Q    In  what  sense? 

9  A    Well,  in  the  sense  that  maybe  in  Costa  Rica's 

10    own  best  interest,  they  decided  they  want  to  support.   The 
H    body  politic  and  the  climate  is  such  we  are  neutral  and 

12  we  don't  do  that.   If  you  have  public  exposure  of  this 

13  information,  it  puts  their  government  in  an  embarrassing 

14  position. 

15  Q    Let  me  ask  you  this  hypothetical  question.   If 

16  you  as  assistant  secretary  had  heard  that  a  private 

17  American  group  had  negotiated  with  the  Costa  Rican  govern- 

18  ment  for  permission  to  put  in  a  resupply  airstrip  to  assist 

19  the  contras  in  southern  Nicaragua,  you  as  assistant  secre- 

20  tary  would  want  to  know  more  about  that,  wouldn't  you? 

21  A     Yes. 
MR.  SMILJANICH:   That's  all  I  have. 
I'm  sorry.   Let  me  pursue  that  one  last  question. 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Why  would  you  want  to  know  more  about  that? 


\m\  AcciHEa 


39 


m\mm 


38 


1 

2 
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5 
6 

7 

e 

9 
10 
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12 

lal 

14 
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24 
25 


A  Because  of  the  --  I  guess  because  it  is  part  of 
the  thing  you  put  forward  in  the  first  question.  I'm 
leading  off  with  that  was  the  involvement  of  the  embassy, 
^^^^^^^^^^^|and  the  rest  of  it.  You  know,  if  a  rancher 
decides  to  put  in  a  strip,  fine,  but  when  you  start  bringing 
the  U.S.  Government  into  it,  then  it  starts  affecting  the 
bilateral  relations. 

It  was  definitely  a  hypothetical  question.   You 
asked  for  my  reaction.   I  gave  it  to  you.   It  was  based 
on  your  two  questions. 

Q  ■   Let  me  exclude  the  involvement  of  the  American 
embassy  for  a  you      that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B 

^^^^^Hconsidered  this  as  a  covert,  secret  matter  that 
was  not  to  be  discussed  and  that  the  airstrip  was  going 
to  be  use^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^■was  going  to  be  used  to  supply  contras 
in  southern  Nicaragua,  if  you  heard  about  that,  you  would 
want  to  become  more  informed  about  that  topic,  wouldn't 
you? 

A    Yes,  in  the  sense  you  always  want  to  build  up 
your  body  of  knowledge  of  what  it  is,  the  capabilities  of 
the  contras  and  Sandinistas. 

Now,  as  I  say,  you  keep  complicating  this  issue 
by  saying^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H-  Well ,  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
isn't  an  official  --  there  is  explicit  letters  signed  by 

JlMCUOOinrn        


40 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

t1 

12 

13 

14 

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16 

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16 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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24 

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^}00^ 


39 


the  President  hammered  out  between  Department  of  State  and 
the  Central  Intel-ligence  Agency  that  specifies  who  does  what 
to  whom  and  who  has  a  right  to  know.   If  the  CI^ 

[conducts  in  any  manner  any  kind  of  representations  on 
behalf  of  the  U.S.  Government  or  acting  in  the  U.S.  Govern- 
ment capacity  to  make  this  happen,  he  is  conducting  an 
operation  within  the  area  of  authority,  the  ambassador 
has  a  total  right  to  know  about. 

So  if  the  ambassador  doesn't  know,  theni 

[is  in  serious  violation  of  a  hammered-out 
agreement.   If  the  ambassador  does  know,  then] 
I  has  not  violated  that. 

But  then  what  happens  after  that  is  a  whole 
different  function.   I  teach  a  course  at  the  State  Depart- 
ment for  new  U.S.  ambassadors.   We  go  through  the  letters 
of  the  President,  the  letters  of  the  Secretary  of  State. 
These  agreements  are  modified  by  every  President.   There 
is  enough  body  of  experience  out  there  to  be  able  to 
tell.   A  CIA^^^H^^^^^^fcannot  operate  in  that  kind  of 
manner,  without  informing  him  and  concurrence  of  the 
ambassador. 

Q    If  the  ambassador  knows  about  it  and  it  is  a 
significant  matter,  the  regional  assistant  secretary  should 
know  about  it  likewise;  isn't  that  correct? 


Should. 


mmim 


41 


6 

7 
8 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

:9 

20 

21    I 

22' 

23 

24 

25 


UNsemED 


40 


1  MR.  SMILJANICH:   That's  all. 

2 


.  ,    '•  •  1 ' 

MR.  TRAYLOR:   No  questions. 


(Whereupon,  at  11:15  a.m.,  the  deposition  was 
4  I   adjourned . ) 

5 


IIWfUMicirB 


42 


STENOGRAPHIC  MINUTES 
UnnriMd  >i«d  UiMdtod 
Not  for  Qootatloa  or 
DnyUcition 


UNGLASSIRED 


r 


0(»YNO-J .JQF ^m-JCOHtt 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on   ^^J-4<<-^8S 

under  ofovision-j  ol  E.O  12356 
by  K  Johnson.  National  Sscunty  Council 


Ck>mmittee  Hearings 
U.S.  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 


W 


OFFICE  OF  THE  CLERK  ^^10^' 

Offleo  of  OiBdal  Reporters  ^J-*-*^^^""^ 


43 


UNCLASSIHED 


NAHE:     HIR0314002  |l|l||    I    IIVVIblLII  PAGE  1 


RPJS  BOYUH 
DCHM  SPRADLIHG 

DEPOSITION  or  DAVID  P.  HULLIGAH 

Monday,  February  2,  1987 

and  Tuesday,  February  3,  1987 

House  of  Representatives, 
Select  Connittee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  with 
Iran, 
Washington,  D.C. 

The  select  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  11=00  a.m. 
at  Headquarters,  Southern  Air  Transport,  Venadades  Building, 
6th  Floor,  Miami  International  Airport,  Miami,  Florida, 
Charles  Tleier,  Special  Deputy  Chief  Counsel  to  the  Select 
Committee,  presiding. 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on  *  ZjM-t08S 
under  orouisions  o(  E  0  12356 
by  K  Johnson.  Nalional  Security  Council 


UNCIASSIHED 


44 


UNCIASSIHED 


KAHE:     HXR03((002       llllll.l    U.A.Ainril  PAGE  2 


HR.  TIEFER-   Let's  go  on  the  record. 
My  name  is  Charles  Tieier  I  am  Special  Deputy  Chiei 
Counsel  of  the  House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 
Arms  Transactions  with  Iran,  pursuant  to  House  Resolution 
^2,     100th  Congress,  First  Session. 

If  the  witness  would  take  the  oath  at  this  point. 

Whereupon,  DAVID  P.  flULLIGAN,  after  having  been 
first  duly  sworn,  was  called  as  a  witness  and  testified  as 

follows : 

HR.  TIEFER-   Mr.  tlulligan,  if  you  would  state  your 
name  and  address. 

THE  WITNESS:   David  Phillips  Mulligan,  4HM 

KR.  TIEFER:   ue  will  adjourn  your  deposition  until 
tomorrow. 

[Whereupon,  at  11:04  a.m.,  the  select  committee  was 
adjourned,  to  reconvene  at  1=00  p.m.  on  Tuesday,  February  3, 
1987.  1 


ONCUSSIflEB 


45 


KAHE:     HIR03t4002 


^msim 


RPTS  BOYUH 
DCHN  SPRADLING 
[1:00  p.n. ) 

MR.  TIEFER:   Kr .  Mulligan,  you  raoall  yest«tday  I 
introduced  nysoli  on  tha  record,  and  you  were  sworn  and  you 
gave  your  nana  and  address . 

THE  WITNESS:   Yas . 

MR.  TIEFER:   You  understand  that  you  are  still 
testifying  subject  to  that  oath. 

THE  HITKESS:   Yes. 

HR.  TIEFER:   And  that  tha  oath  requires  you  to 
testify  truthfully  subject  to  tha  penalty  of  perjury. 

THE  WITNESS:   Yes. 

EXAMINATION 

BY  MR.  TIEFER: 
Q   If  wa  could  go  through  your  background,  starting 
with  your  education  briefly,  and  what  jobs  you  held 
successively  after  you  graduated? 

A    I  was  born  and  raised  in  New  Britain,  Connecticut. 
I  attended  Darrow  School  in  New  Lebanon,  New  York,  Colgate 
Unlvttrsity  in  Hamilton,  New  York,  and  after  college  I 
obiminad  my  pilot's  licenses  and  in  1968  I  want  to  work  for 
Overseas  National  Airways  whose  headquarters  was  in  New 
York. 


UNClASSra 


46 


NAME: 
6U 
65 
66 
67 
68 
69 
70 
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HIR03X002   IflVUI  H.l.liriPIl       PAGE     (« 

I  worked  with  Overseas  iTational  until  1976,  in  1977 
I  joined  Air  Florida,  in  1978  I  became  the  Chief  Pilot,  in 
1979  I  becane  Staff  VP  of  Flight  Operations,  in  1980  1 
became  Corporate  VP,  Flight  Operations,  and  resigned  that 
position  on  19 — March  of  1984  to  join  Southern  Air  Transport 
as  Senior  Vice  President  of  Operations. 
Currently  X  hold  that  position. 

2    How  did  you  come  to  decide  to  come  to  Southern  Air 
Transport? 

A    I  had  known  on  a  personal  level  Bill  Langton  for 
five  years,  not  intimately  but  we  were  acquaintances  and 
Bill  joined  Southern  in  1983,  moved  to  Miami,  we  renewed  our 
relationship  and  he  a  number  of  times  had  asked  me  to  join 
the  company.   X  weighed  the  decision.  Air  Florida's 
financial  fortunes  did  not  look  altogether  too  promising  at 
that  time,  so  X  decided  to  take  him  up  on  his  offer  and  that 
was  six  months  prior  to  them  entering  into  Chapter  1 1 . 


UNCUSSIHED 


47 


UNCLASSIHED 


NAME-  HIR03'4002 

81  DCHN  HILTON 

82 

83  2    All  tight.   Do  you  cetain  currently  your  pilot's 

8>4  license? 

85  A    No.   I  still  have  a  valid  pilot's  license,  but  I  do 

86  not  naintain  ''currency-'' 

87  C    One  oi  the  prinary  purposes  o£    our  relatively  short 

88  deposition  today  is  going  to  be  to  show  you  a  lot  of 

89  docunents  and  to  try  to  identify  then.   They  have  been 

90  previously  produced  by  Southern  Air  Transport  to  the  House 

91  investigation. 

92  You  should  study  them  as  long  as  you  feel  the  need, 

93  but  you  may  find  that  you  are  not  going  to  be  questioned 
914  closely  on  each  line  of  them. 

95  .    A    All  right. 

96  .    2    I  show  you  documents  numbered  >419  through  1130,  and 

97  ask  you  if  you  recognize  the  type  of  form. 

98  A    U19,  this  is  an  accounting  form  that  goes  to  the 

99  CAB  or  DOT  now.   I  think  either  Finance  or  Bob  pSrson  puts 

100  this  together.   I'm  not  sura.   Finance  Department,  I  guess. 

101  I  don't  normally  deal  with  these  forms.   That  will  take  you 

102  all  tha  way  from  U19  through  ^30. 

103  .  ~  e    You  may  not  normally  deal  with  them.   Do  you  deal 
lOU  with  them  enough  to  understand  them? 

105  A    Z  think  I  am  intelligent  enough  to  read  it  and 


Mmm 


48 


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im 

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unijl«rstand  It  but  I  don't  d«al  anough — X  don't  avsn  daal  ulth 
th«B  at  all.  but  It  is  pratty  salf-axplanatoxy . 

e    I  nay  ask  you  If  you  ara  faniliar  with  soma  oi  tha 
flights  that  axa  idantlilad  on  It. 

A    Okay. 

e    Thay  happan  to  hava  bean  producad  in  ravaxsa 
chronological  ordar,  so  I  will  start  at  tha  back  and  coma 
forward.   That  saams  a  littla  odd. 

Paga  1428,  which  is  tha  earliar  shaat. 

A    Yes. 

2    On  Una  2U  there  is  a  notation  about  a  B-707 
flight. 

A    Yes. 

An     ^**^^^A 
A    Yes. 

S    Are  you  familiar  with  that  flight? 
A    Hhat  is  the  data  of  operation? 

fi    You  see  the  form  in  tha  upper  right  corner  with  a 
period,  ending  December  31,  1985. 

A    But  I  don't  hava  a  date  for  that. 

e    If  your  answer  is  that  without  a  specific  date  you 
would  not  be  familiar  with  the  flight,  then— 
.  ~  A    That  is  a  fair  statement. 
S    All  right. 

X  may  then  forego  the  rest  of  them  because  there 


Mussra 


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NAnE: 
131 
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mo 
mi 

1M2 
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lUM 

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me 
m? 
ms 

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uNcussm 


HIR03.002  UllUL/tUOiriLU  ""  ' 

aia.  no  dates  of  spsciiic  flights  on  any  of  then.   I  will  not 

mark  this  as  an  exhibit;  the  witness  did  not  recognize  then. 

I  shou  you  document  1783  and  178i4,  and  ask  you  if 
you  recognize  this  type  of  form. 

A    Yes,  our  standard  aircraft  log  for  the  707. 

Q    If  you  could  start  in  the  upper  left  corner  and 
work  your  way  through  explaining  what  each  block  of 
infornation  means,  it  is  not  so  much  the  particular  flight 
being  of  any  great  significance  as  to  explain  what  the 
columns  on  the  form  mean  generally. 

A    You  want  me  to  go  through  every  block? 

2    You  can  do  it  in  a  way  that  it  doesn't  take  a  long 
time,  that  would  be  fine. 

A    I  think  some  are  self-explanatory,  date,  type  of 
aircraft,  the  tail  number. 

Q    Let's  slow  down.   Do  you  know  what  the  date 
signifies  on  this  form? 

A    This  is  the  date  of  operation  for  this  particular 
flight,  or  flights  if  more  than  one  are  listed  on  the  log. 

2    And  the  aircraft  type? 

A    707. 

2    And  going  to  the  next  column,  what  is  that? 
.  '  A    That  is  the  registration  number  of  the  aircraft,  in 
this  case  November,  525  Sierra  Juliet. 

2    Who  provides  those  tail  numbers? 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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HIR03U002 


UNCUSSinED 


PAGE 


8 


-  A    They  axe  assigned  pexitanently  to  the  aircraft  by 
the  FAA. 

fi    Does  Southern  Air  Transport  register  each  aircraft? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  is  the  number  provided  when  registration 
occurs? 

A    Yes,  and  in  this  case  what  Southern  Air  Transport 
has  done  is  we  have  with  the  FAA  reserved  a  block  of  numbers 
so  they  are  sequentially  issued  at  our  request,  so  our  707s 
are  523,  S2U,    525>  if  we  put  additional  airplanes  on,  they 
will  be  526,  527.   So  we  have  a  block  of  numbers  reserved 
for  Southern  Air. 

fi    Are  you  familiar  with  the--even  in  a  general 
way — with  the  requirements  of  the  FAA  as  far  as  registration, 
what  must  be  registered  and  what  does  not  have  to  be 
registered? 

A    In  a  general  way. 

S    Is  Southern  Air  Transport  required  to  register  a 
plane  as  soon  as  it  purchases  the  plane  or  as  soon  as  it 
operates  the  plane  or  for  what  it  is  required  to  register 
the  plane? 

A    It  would  be  prior  to  operating  the  aircraft  the 
airplane  must  be  registered.   If  we  purchase  an  airplane  it 
does  not  necessarily  have  to  be  registered  by  U.S. 
registration. 


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181 

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UNCUSSIFIED 


HXR03U002       III1II.I    11  X  >l»>li*ll  PAGE  9 

As  an  axanple.  ii  ua    lalised  an  airplane  from  a 
fozalgn  country,  the  law  now  onables  us  to  operate  that 
airplane  with  a  foreign  registration  without  converting  it 
to  U.S.  registration,  providing  the  bilaterals  between  the 
two  countries  pernit  it. 

S    Do  you  have  to  register  a  plane  ii  you  are  not 
going  to  operate  it  within  the  United  States? 

A    Yes. 

C    But  will  operate  it  overseas? 

A    If  we  put  it  on  our  operations  specifications,  it 
has  to  be  registered  to  the  company.   Or  let  me  restate 
that;  that  is  not  exactly  the  case.   It  has  to  be  listed  in 
ouz  operations  specif icatiojis  but  the  airplane  can  still  be 
registered  to  a  third  party. 

fi    Once  you  register  a  plane  with  the  FAA,  what 
further  information  does  the  FAA  require  you  to  provide  as 
the  plane  is  being  operated?   Do  you  have  to  give  them 
information  on  each  flight  that  is  made? 

A    No. 

8    Do  you  have  to  make  periodic  reports? 

A    No. 

e    Do  you  have  to  do  anything  to  maintain  the  currency 
of  'the  registration? 

A    I  think  it  is  renewed  either  on  an  annual  or 
biannual  basis.   I  am  not  sure. 


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2m 

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BNCUSSIflfi) 


HAHE:     HIX03U002    .         IIIWl.l    f I  \  \  ILlL  11  PAGE  10 


.    .     e         And  — 

A    Thtt  reglstzation  does  expire  and  the  exact  term  oi 
it  I  an  not  sure.   I  can't  offhand  recall. 

2    Southern  Air  Transport  were  periodically — 

A    Renews  registrations. 

fi    Hho  within  Southern  Air  Transport  handles  that? 

A    Our  Engineering  Departnent  which  is  a  part  of 
naintenance . 

8    Continuing  on  with  the  fom  then,  reading  across  in 
the  upper  right  corner,  there  is  a  nunber. 

A    Yes. 

fi        Hhat   is    the   significance   of   that   nxinber? 

A    You  are  talking  ab,out  in  this  case  2526? 

8    Yes. 

A    That  is  a — that  identifies  that  particular  log  page 
nunber.  they  are  sequentially  going  to,  you  go  to  the  next 
one,  it  is  2527,  that  is  in  order  to  ensure  the  wholeness  of 
the  docunent  so  in  other  words,  from  a  maintenance 
standpoint,  you  can't — this  provides  there  will  be  no  missing 
pages.   In  other  words,  ii  the  page  is  used  for  maintenance 
only  and  does  not  reflect  a  flight,  it  will  be  written  on 
th«  page,  maintenance  only,  but  it  ensures  that  when  the 
doduaents  aza  turned  over  to  another  party,  that  they  are 
whole . 

fi        When  you   say   the   whole    doctiment,    what   is    the 


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HIR034002 


UNCUSSinED 


PAGE    n 


ralationship  of  sequential  pages  to  each  othet?   Is  it  the 
san*  aircraft,  the  sane  company,  the  same  day? 

A    No,  you  get  a--this  log  book  tepcesents  about  50 
pages  and  I  think  it  is  50  pages.   In  this  case  probably 
2501  to  2550  uere  issued  to  this  airplane.   Once  that  log 
book  is  used  up,  it  will  be  issued  another  log  book,  also  go 
sequentially  nunbared  pages,  but  not  necessarily  following 
in  this  order. 

2    Okay.   Let's  go  on.   We  go  back  to  the  left  side  of 
the  page.   Would  you  explain  the  boxes,  the  blocks  on  the 
left  side  of  the  page? 

A    We  have  captain's  nana,  initial,  employee  name > 
number,  his  signature. 

2    Those  can  you — can  you  tall  me  who  those  relate  to--I 
don't  mean  the  particular  person.   Will  it  be  one  person  who 
has  a  number  and  signature? 

A    No.  if  you  go  across,  captain's  name  is  first, 
followed  by  his  first  initial,  followed  by  his  company 
employee  number.   And  the  captain  is  required  to.  is  the 
only  one  required  to  sign  the  log  page.   That  is  his 
signature . 

li  you  continue  across  on  the  blanks  that  are  not 
filled  In,  ACn  stands  for  additional  craw  member,  last  name, 
initial,  employee  name  and  number.   Obviously,  in  this  case, 
up  on  those  lines  there  was  nobody  onboard.   You  go  down  to 


iimsim 


54 


UNCUSSIRED 


HAHE:     HIR03U002  ^^  •  « Wkf  I^Uf  1 1    ■■    ■■    PAGE  12 


256 

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tha-  next  line,  that  is  the  first  officer,  his  initial,  his 
enployee  number,  and  the  next  one  it  says  ACM.   In  this 
case.  HcDermott.  he  was  load  master  on  this  flight,  his 
employee  number,  and  then  ACMs  are  blank  there. 

Then  you  go  to  the  next  line,  that  is  the  flight 
engineer,  his  initial,  his  employee  number,  and  then  ACMs 
are  left  blank  because  those  constituted  the  only  people 
onboard  the  airplane. 

Q    Now,  can  you  explain  to  me  the  significance  of  the 
employee  numbers?   Who  assigns  them?   Are  they  reported  to 
the  Government  in  any  way? 

A    Ho,  they  are  employee  numbers.   Hhat  is  the  mystery 
with  that? 

S   Southern  Air  Transport  gives  each  employee  a 
number? 

A    Yes. 

2   Do  they  give  each  employee  a  number  whether  he  is  a 
person  who  flies  planes  or  not? 

A   All  employees  have  employee  numbers . 

S   And  they  don't — to  your  knowledge,  is  Southern  Air 
Transport  required  to  inform  FAA  of  who  its  employees  are 
and  what  the  numbers  are? 
.  "  A    Ho. 

S    Continuing  on  the  form,  where  it  says  ''flight 
number''  and  on  to  the  right,  if  you  explain  what  those 


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HIR03<4002 


blocks    are. 


UNCUssm 


PAGE  13 


K         ''Flight  number''  in  this  case,  the  nunber  assigned 
to  this  trip  was  525,  and  the  routing  is  from  Brownsville, 
Texas,  to  Lisbon.   ''Out''  means  the  time  it  blocked  out 
under  its  own  power;  ''ofi''  means  the  time  oi  lift-oif; 
''on''  means  the  time  of  landing,  and  ''in'*  means  the  time 
it  stopped  at  the  gate  or  wherever  it  parked. 

2    The  flight  number,  would  you  explain  the 
significance  of  that? 

A    In  this  case  it  appears  this  was  a  ferry  flight,  so 
for  flight  number,  we  just  assign  the  last,  the  tail  number 
of  the  airplane  becomes  the  flight  number  in  that  case. 

C    And  the  blocks  as  you  continue  along? 

A    Total  flight,  total  block,  the  flight  was  a 
duration  of  9.2  airborne,  that  is  wheels  ofi  to  wheels  on. 
The  block  time,  that  is  from  out  to  in,  was  9.6  hours. 

The  next  column,  it  says  LNDS,  with  the  C  and  F 
under  that  column,  with  a  line  through  the  F  indicates  that 
the  first  officer  made  the  landing. 

2    What  would  a  mark  in  the  other  column  be? 

A    Heans  the  captain  made  the  landing.   Fuel  added  in 
smllons  was  not  recorded  there,  but  I  would  have  to  presume 
the'y  added  iuel.   So  I  don't  know  why  they  didn't  add  it 
here  . 

The  next  one  is  fuel  onboard  in  pounds.   When  they 


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HIR03'<002     UIWIII  M.^.IIFIfcll      PAGE    1M 
blocked  out  of  Brownsville,  tKe"^TRd  138,000  pounds  of  fuel. 
Hhan  they  arrived  at  Lisbon,  they  had  29,000  pounds  of  fuel 
remaining.   They  added,  oil  added  to  the  various  engines, 
and  it  shows  that  there  was  no  oil  added.   That  is  about  all 
you  can  say  for  going  across  there. 

S2    Go  right  ahead  on  the  next  line  underneath. 

A    Mileage? 

e    Yes. 

A    Mileage  is  the  total  air  mileage  between 
Brownsville  and  Lisbon.   Renew  cargo  shows  no  entry,  so  it 
was  a  ferry  flight;  it  was  enpty. 

There  was  a  delay  out  of  Brownsville  for  seven 
hours  and  looKs  like  50  minutes  for  maintenance. 

fi   Could  we  slow  down?   On  revenue  cargo,  if  there  is 
a  number  in  there,  what  would  the  number  signify? 

A   Total  weight  of  the  freight. 

2    In  pounds? 

A    In  pounds . 

2   Okay.   You  were  saying  about  delay  length. 

A   There  was  a  delay  of  seven  hours,  50  minutes  for 
soa*  maintenance  reason.   It  doesn't  specify. 

fi   Skipping  down  to  the  lower  left  corner,  can  you 
exp'laln  what  each  of  the  entries  in  the  lower  left  corner 
signify? 

A   This  page,  et  cetera? 


uNCiASSire 


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HIR034002 


JNClASSra 


PAGE  15 


A    It  is  scratched  out  but  it  appaais  it  is  44,000, 
uhatavat.   That  was  total  time  that  had  been  ilown  o-n  that 
aircraft  prior  to  this  flight. 

Then  the  next  entry  is  9.2  and  if  you  look  up,  that 
corresponds  with  the  total  flight  up  above.   You  add  that  to 
the  44,000  and  odd  hours  and  that  gives  you  a  neu  total,  and 
it  gives  you  the  ability  to  correct  on  that  page  for 
arithmetical  mistakes . 

fi    And  in  the  lower  right  corner? 

A    Okay.   It  indicates  that  an  A  check  was  completed-- 

2    Is  that  a  particular  type  of  maintenance? 

A    Yes,  that  is  a  very  minor,  minor  check,  basically  a 
glorified  preflight  check. 

Q    Fine.   Let's  skip  the  rest  of  the  blocks.   If  you 
look  at  the  following  page,  page  1784,  and  just  look  at  the 
routing . 

A    Yes. 

e  Or  at  any  other  columns  helpful  to  you.  Is  this  a 
continuation  of  the  same  flight  of  the  same  aircraft?  That 
is  on  page  1783. 

A    Yes. 
.  '  fi    And  you  know  that  because? 

A  Two  reasons:  one,  the  dates,  it  is  the  next  date, 
and  the  sequence  of  the  log  page  numbers. 


UNCIASSIHED 


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NAHE 
356 
357 
358 

359 
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HZX03it002 


BHBJiSSinHI 


PACK    16 


e   Okay.   Do  you  also  hava  to  chaok  that  tha  tail 
nuabat  Is  tha  saaa? 

k        Yas.   You'would  do  that,  too.  sura. 

fi    Can  you  dasczlba  tha  coutlng  oi  this  naxt  illght  of 
tha  Sana  plana? 

A    Yas,  dapaztlng  Lisbon  and  want  to  Santa  Hazla  In 
tha  Azozas;  fzoa  tha  Azoras  want  to  Antigua;  Antigua,  It 
want  to  KOP--thay  had  a  mechanical.   It  Is  probably  Kingston. 

Q    How  do  you  know  it  is  a  machanlcal? 

A    Dava  just  ranindad  iia  wa  had  a  problaa.   I  forgot 
about  that. 

fi    Can  you  tall  anything  iron  what  is  writtan  thaza 
that  you  had  a  aaehanlcal?- 

A    Ko.   X  can't  saa  it  haza  unlass  I  a>  missing 
sonathing  obvious. 

fi    Don't  wozk  on  it.   Z  an  mostly  tzylng  to  undazstand 
tha  significanca  oi  each  block  oi  lattazs . 

FzoB  tha  ANU,  that  signiiias  Antigua? 

A    Yas. 

fi    Doas  tha  H^KP  signify  Kingston? 

A    Yas. 

fi   1£   you  would ■ contlnua  on  with  tha  illght. 

A  Pzoa  Kingston  thay  want  to,  looks  likaJ 
zecollaction  oi  that  flight  was  that  it  want  to 
tha  cozzact  daslgnatoz,  thzaa-lattaz  designator  ioz 


but  my 


UNCLASSIFIED 


NlHKi  HZtOSMOOa 
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38(( 
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387 
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395 
396 
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KOO 
U01 
■402 


wiASsra 


P»GK    17 


was^^^H  1   think  th«  or*M  didn't  know  It  and  thay 

up  wlth^^^^^^^^^^H.   Froa  ^^^^^^Hthay 
iarxlad  to  Bzounsvllla. 

e    Okay.   Who,  baioza  wa  gat  on  with  that,  who  fills 
out  this  fozB  and  uhan  do  thay  fill  it  out? 

A    Ganatally,  it  is  tha  copilot  fills  it  out,  and  tha 
flight  anginaar  will  naka  soiia  anttias.  and  tha  captain  will 
sign  it,  ganazally  spaaking. 

e    Is  ona  copy  mada  or  aota  than  ona  copy? 

A    No,  thaza  aza  about  thzaa  oz  fouz  copias. 

8    Hhar^  doas  aaoh  go? 

A    Tha  yalloH  copy  comas  to  OPS,  tha  pink  stays  in  tha 
book  with  tha  aizplana  foz  a  paziod  of  tiaa,  and  tha  whita 
gats  mallad  to  salntananca  oz  want  into  aalntananca.  Hiami 
malntananca . 

fi    Hhat  doas  OPS  do  uith  it,  and  what  do  you  mean  by 
OPS? 

A    Opazations.   ^ay  taka  tha  timas  off  tha  log  sheat 
to  vazify  that  thalz  antrlas  that  thay  raoozd  down  thaza  aza 
cozzact,  foz  bookkaaping. 

fi   Anything  alsa? 

A   Yas,  thay  stay  thaza  for  about  90  days. 


WNcwssife 


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U03 
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DCHN  PARKER 

fi    Do  they  make  copies  to  provide  to  anybody? 

A    Not  unless  somebody  requests  it.   Haintenance  has 
their  copies,  and  they  distribute  it.   Their  copies  within 
the  maintenance  organization,  planning  needs  them  ior 
records  and  quality  control  needs  them,  people  like  that, 
standard  housekeeping  chores. 

2    Do  any  copies  go  to  the  government? 

A    Ko. 

2    Does  the  government  ever  come  around  to  Inspect 
these? 

A    Yes. 

2    Under  what  circtimstances? 

A    Primarily  as  a  maintenance  function.   They  just 
check  to  see  if  you  are  maintaining  the  airport  in 
accordance  with  the  F ARs .   They  can  do  that  by  checking  log 
book  pages.   They  check  write-ups  and  sign-oiis  to  see  if 
there  are  proper  sign-off s  on  discrepancies,  things  of  that 
nature. 

They  check  to  see  if  you  have  not  overgone  any 
ohaok  Intervals . 

e    That  would  be  done  by  the  FAA? 

A    Yes,  maintenance  people  within  the  7AA  that  are 
assigned  to  us. 


Mussm 


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HAHE 
1*28 
(•29 
USO 
i<31 
t32 
1433 
1(34 
U35 
1436 
1437 
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(439 
14(40 
14m 
t4M2 
Mt43 
141414 
14(45 
14(46 
1447 
(4148 
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HIR03>4002 


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2    Hava  other  government  agencies  such  as  Customs  ever 
cone  around  to  inspect  Southern  Air  Transport  aircraft  for 
violations  that  you  know--logs  that  you  now? 

A  Aircraft  logs?  Hot  that  I  am  aware  of.  Not  to  say 
it  hasn't  happened,  but  I  don't  Know  what  they  would  get  out 
of  aircraft  logs. 

2    Is  the  information  entered  by  any  department  into 
data  processing? 

A    Yes,  record  keeping. 

2    Uhich  department  does  that? 

A    Our  data  processing  depaztnent  takes  the  master 
log,  takes  the  log  and  enters  it  in.   There  is  an  individual 
that  is  assigned  to  that  function. 

2    But  does  operations  provide  then  a  copy  from  which 
to  work  or  does  maintenance  provide  them  a  copy  from  which 
to  work?   Who  provides  the  copy  to  the  data  processing 
section? 

A    I  think  maintenance  provides  than  a  copy. 

2    And  is  all  the  information  put  on  computer  or  only 
soma? 

A    Just  soma  of  it.   Time  is,  names  of  crew  members. 

e    Is  tha  routing  put  on  data  processing? 

A   Yas. 

2    Do  you  know  hou  long  tha  information  Is  maintained 
on  data  processing? 


nfimim 


62 


'WfiUjJ/flfj 


KAHZ'  MIK03II002                 If  III  af  11  \  %.  ILf  ff   ffl      P^^GS         20 

**S3  •  ;     *        H®' 

i(5<<  8   Do  you  hav«  any  Idaa  whathar  it  is  box*  than  a  yaax 

<4S5  oz  lass  than  that? 

US6  A    I  don't  know. 

1(57  8    Okay.   Kow,  aza  you  iamiliaz  with  this  pazticulaz 

(458  flight  that  is  zacordad?   So  you  zacollact  it  oz  hava  soiia 

1*59  knowladga  of  it? 

M60  A    Soma  vagua  zacollaotion. 

(46  1  8    What  is  youz  zacollaotion? 

<462  A    Not  much — Z  zamambaz  that  ha  had,  aitaz  ha  got  out 

■463  of  Antigua  that  ha  had  a  pzoblam  zatzaoting  tha  gaaz,  and  Z 

*t6t  can't  zamambaz  whathaz  it  was  tha  nosa  gaaz  oz  whatavaz  tha 

<(65  pzoblam  was.  and  that  is  why  ha  did  go  into  Kingston,  and 

166  avidantly  got  tha  pzoblam  fixad  in  Kingston,  and  than 

<467  pzocaadad  on  to^^^^^^Band  was  abla  to  gat  full  at 

U68  ^^^^^^Hand  fazzy 

>t69  I  know  of  no  othaz  unusual  zacollaotions  about  tha 

«»70  flight. 

i|71  8   As  pazt  of  youz  supazvision  of  opazations.  aza  you 

>I72  awaza  what  oazgos.  ganazally  spaaklng,  aza  cazziad.  whathaz 

U73  thay  aza.  say.  hazazdous  oz  non-hazazdous? 

>(7it  A    Somatimas .  somatlmas  thay  aza  not.   Ha  hava  an 

>(75  awful  lot  of  flights  avazy  day.  and  thaza  aza  pzobably  a 

176  numbaz  of  flights  opazating  zight  now  that  has  hazazdous 

(477  matazial  on  tham.  but  I  am  not  awaza  of  it. 


cNMs/fe 


63 


KAHE 
U78 

U79 
>480 
U81 
1*82 
<I83 
M8(4 
M85 
M86 
1487 
488 
(t89 
1(90 
(491 
((92 
1(93 
U9i( 
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1(99 
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502 


HiRoauooa         iflBf .1  #l  %  Y|l  |r-||         page       21 

2    Thera  is  no  s'pTcff'l*  l£iaJ±orn  that  signifies  the 
natura  oi  the  cargo;  is  that  corract? 

A    Ho  . 

Q    Do  you  kaap  other  iorms--does  operations  keep  other 
forms  that  reflect  the  nature  of  the  cargo? 

A    Well,  on  international  flights  you  have  the 
shippers  export  documents.   You  will  have  HAZMAX  forms-- 

2    Slou  down.   You  are  using  shorthand  again. 
Shippers  export  documents. 

A    Yes,  SEDZ. 

2    Go  ahead,  the  other  ona? 

A    You  Hill  have  HAZMAT  approvals. 

e    Hhat  is  a  HAZHAT. 

A    I  don't  know  what  the  form  number  is,  but  it  is  a 
form  that  allows  you  to  go  on  if  you  are  doing  an 
international  operation. 

HR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Is  this  short  for  hazardous 
materials? 

THE  HZTNESS:   Yas . 

HR.  VAN  CLEVE:   This  is  probably  through  the 
Cowaazca  Department. 

THE  HITNESS:   It  is  FAA,  I  believe. 
BY  MR.  TIEFER! 

2    Hhat  other  forms  reflect  the  nature  of  the  cargo? 

A    The  cargo  manifests,  and  if  there  is  an  airway  bill 


ONCLASSIFIEO 


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KAHE: 

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PAGE    22 


to  .cover  the  freight. 

S   Which  oi  these — let's  go  back  to  each  shippers 
export  form.  Hho  in  Southern  Transport  prepares  that? 

A    It  depends  on  whose-- 

2    Which  department? 

A    In  some  cases  the  Sales  Departnent  handles  them. 
In  other  times.  Systems  Operations  has  handled  them. 

2    Which  is  your  department? 

A    Which  is  my  department.   One  of  my  departments.   It 
can  vary. 

Q   Can  you  explain  when  your  department  does  it  and 
another  department  does  it? 

A    In  the  case--that  is  a  pretty  good  question. 
BY  MR.  KIRSTZIN: 

2    Can  I  check  with  him? 
MR.  TIEFER:   Sure. 
BY  nR.  KIRSTEIH: 

2    The  shippers  export  document  would  only  relate  to  a 
flight  from  the  U.S.  to  somewhere,  so  it  wouldn't  have  been 
prepared  in  connection  with  a  flight  like  this. 

A    The  other  one  you  ask--who  does  it,  you  know,  that 
is  a  very  good  question,  because  there  have  been  times  when 
either  the  department  has  done  it  for  no  particular  reason 
that  I  can  recall,  and  I  don't  get  that  intimately  involved 
in  it,  in  my  little  area. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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5m 

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HIR03U002 


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PAGE    23 


.  _   fi    Does  the  shipper  prepare  it  for  hinself  sonetime? 
A    Yas>  the  shipper  can  provide  a  lot  of  it. 

BY  HR.  TIEFER: 
C    I  won't  go  through  the  complete  routing  of  those 
documents.   Do  you  have  a  knowledge  of  whether  the  shippers 
export  document,  when  you  have  it  within  SAT,  is  put  m  data 
processing  ? 

A    It  probably  is  not.   I  can't  imagine  why  it  would. 
2    Then  there  is  a  hazardous  materials  form.   Who 

within  SAT  prepares  that? 

■«t»y 

A        Bob    Person   usually   handles    that. 

Oi 

Q  What  is  his  position? 

A  He'  is  director  of  systems  operations. 

8  So  he  works  under  you? 
A  Yes. 

9  And  is  that  form  put  on  data  processing? 
A  No. 

2  Cargo  manifests,  who  prepares  that? 

A  The  shipper. 

2  Does  a  copy  come  to  Southern  Air  Transport? 

A  Yes. 

fi  Who  keeps  it? 

.  -  A  He  Keep  a  copy  in  operations  for  about  90  days,  and 
then  dispose  of  it. 

2  And  the  airway  bill,  what  is  the  airway  bill?   What 


J 


UNCiASSire 


66 


UNcussro 


Hxni-  HiR03i4002     Ullul  Mai>ili  Ir  II  paqe      2M 


553 

ssn 

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5614 
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S7<4 
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is  it  for? 

A    I  aa  not  sales,  and  legally  I  don't  know  exactly 
what  it  is,  but — 

HR.  KIRSTEIN:   You  axe  the  witness. 
BY  MR.  TIEFER! 

e    Let  ne  explain  on  that  point.   There  may  be 
questions  where  someone  else  in  the  company  would  know  much 
better  than  you. 

A    Bob  Mason  would  know  that. 

2    No  doubt. 

A    Speciiically ,  what  an  airway  bill  and  the  legal 
requirements  for  it  are,  I  don't  know. 

2    Nevertheless,  I  may  ask  you  if  you  have  knowledge 
and  even  if  your  knowledge  is  much  less  than  anyone  else's, 
I  would  like  to  have  your  knowledge.   What  is  your  knowledge 
of  what  an  airway  bill  is? 

A    It  is  a  piece  of--a  form  that  accompanies  the 
freight  listing,  what  the  freight  is  and  the  numbers 
assigned  to  that  shipment,  and  I  guess  it  is  used  for 
tracking  purposes. 

fi    Down  where  that  goes  on  data  processing  within 
Southern  Air  Transport? 
.  ~  A    Ko.  I  don't  believe  it  does. 

fi    To  youx  Knowledge  is  there  any  form  kept  on  data 
processing  in  Southern  Air  Transport  which  records  the  name 


mmm 


67 


HIROaUOOZ 


UNGUSSIFIED 


PAGE     25 


NAME 

578  of -a  cargo  being  shipped? 

579  A    To  my  Knowledge,  no. 

580  S    Let's  leave  the  world  of  iotms. 

581  A    Good. 

582  2    And  cone  to  a  set  of  documents  that  were  produced 

583  to  us  in  the  nature  oi    an  Iran  iile .   We  will  take  thera  one 

584  by  one.   I  will  show  you  page  787  and  ask  you  if  you 

585  recognize  it. 

586  BY  HR.  KIRSTEIN: 

587  8    If  you  have  never  seen  it  before  that  is  an 

588  acceptable  answer. 

589  A    I  think  I  have  .   I  think  I  have. 

590  BY  HR.  TIEFER: 

591  fi    What  can  you  tell  me  about  it?   Not  deducing  it 

592  from  what  you  see,  but  your  sense  of  it  from  your 

593  recollection.   For  one  thing,  do  you  recognise  the 
59it  handwriting? 

595  A    Yes.   I  think  it  is.   I  believe  this  writing  is  Bob 

596  PoEtrson's. 

597  MR.  TIEFKR:   Let's  mark  the  previous  two  forms  that 

598  u*  discussed,  1783  and  178>4  as  Exhibit  1  in  this  deposition. 

599  [The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPK-1 

600  fox'  identification:  ] 
601 

602  xxxxxxxxxx  INSERT  1B-1  xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNCUSSiriED 


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...      THE  WITNESS :   The  only  problam  I  have  is  that  this 
foXB  has  no  date  on  it>  but  I  an — I  think  I  an  familiar  with 
this  piece  oi  paper. 

BY  HR.  TIEFER: 

e   Okay. 

A    Do  you  want  me  to  talk  away  at  it? 

e    Sure. 

A    I  don't  recall  the  dates  or  I  can't  even  vaguely 
pinpoint  it  right  now,  but  this  was  probably  used  in 
discussions  on  a  trip  that  I  had  up  to  Hashington  regarding 
these  exact  routings  that  were  shown  here. 


So  it  was  prepared  by  Bob  Poirson. 

Po'irson,  P-0-I-R-S-O-H. 

For  you  to  take  with  you? 

Yes. 

And  what  was  the  purpose  o£   preparing  it?   What  was 


2 
A 

e 

A 

S 
it  for? 

A   He  were  just  discussing  whether  we  could  indeed  fly 
these  trips,  whether  we  had  the  aircraft  available  within 
certain  windows  to  actually  complete  them  within  a  given 
time.   That  is  especially  for  the  707  and  the  Here.  The  L- 
100  Mas  just  an  exercise.   Z  don't  recall.   There  was  some 
discussion  about  using  a  Hero,  but  Z  think  the  price  was  too 
high. 

The  payload  was  too  low.   Zt  was  not  a  good  value. 


UNCUSSIHED 


69 


NAHE'     HIR03>4002 


UNCUSSIRED 


PAGE  27 


628 
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6314 
635 
636 
637 
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6U0 
61(1 
6142 
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6148 
6(49 
6S0 
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652 


.  _   fi    It  may  ba  usaful  b«iore  ua  go  through  all  thesa 
docuaants-- 

A    Tall  you  what,  I  have  a  battar  recollection  now.   I 
ranembaE  seeing  this,  but  this  is  not  a  form  that  I  used, 
not  a  trip  I  made.   I  think  it  was  some  other  people  made 
it,  now  that  I  think  about  it,  because  I  had  made  some  trips 
to  Washington  and  discussed  these  very  things,  but  not  with 
this  form  because,  as  I  recall,  I  did  mine  over  the  phone. 

C    All  right.   I  don't  want  to  90--excuse  me.   I  don't 
want  to  go  at  this  time  into  a  lot  of  detail  about  the  Iran 
flights,  but  since  we  will  be  showing  you  a  lot  of  Iran 
documents,  it  might  be  useful  if  I  asked  you  to  give  like  a 
3  to  5-minute  description  of  your  sequence  whan  you  learned 
that  there  were  going  to  be  such  flights,  what  your  part  was 
in  them,  not  to  gat  a  lot  of  detail,  but  so  the  documents 
will  make  some  sense. 

Each  document  is  not  a  coherent  chronology  of  the 


story . 
A 

2 

A 

e 

A 


Okay.   I  don't  have  a  John  Dean  maaory. 

Hall,  wa  can't  all  be  John  Daan.   Go  right  ahead. 

You  want  ma  to  give  you  the  3  to  5  now? 

Suza. 

Wall,  with  that  ptafaca,  I  an  vary  sketchy  on 


dates,  but  Bill  Langton,  our  President,  approached  me  about 
doing  soma  operations  into  Iran.   At  that  tine,  the  cargo 


iinmim 


70 


UNCLASSIHED 


NAHKi  HIt03il002   UlllJI_nULlll  II^U      PAGX    28 

653  uas  unspaolilttd.   M*  talkad  about  alzczait  routing >  how  ha 

65<4  could  do  lt>  and  at  a  lataz  data  shortly  tharaaitar  I  found 

655  tha  point  of  dapart'ura  was  Tal  Aviv,  which  was  a  littla 

656  parplaxing  in  trying  to  figura  out  how  wa  could  routa  tha 

657  aizplanas  in  thara  quiatly. 

658  Ha  caaa  up  with  a  basic  gana  plan  oi  down  through 

659  tha  Rad  Saa  and  up  on  in.   Sonatlma  aftar  that.  I  can't 

660  rananbar  how  long,  aayba  a  month  or  two,  it  kind  oi  diad  off 
66  1  and  than  it  caaa  back. 

662  Thara  was  Bora  discussion  on  it.   I  travalad  to 

663  Washington  for  tha  day  with  Bill  Langton  and  mat  with  Dick 
66i|  Gadd.   Furthar  discussions  on  tha  subjact — inolusiva,  but 

665  discussions'.   I  think  aitax  that,  I  aa  a  littla  skatohy 

666  hara.   Paul  Gilchrist  may  hava  travalad  to  Washington  to 

667  aaat  with  Dick  Gadd,  and  Dick  Saoord,  but  I  travalad  to 

668  Washington  with  Gilchrist  and  mat  with  Dick  Gadd  and  Dick 

669  Sacord  and  discussad  aora  datails,  and  Z  aa  sorry  to  adait  Z 

670  can't  reaaabar  whathar  wa  had  alraady — wa  had  not  flown  a 

671  trip  at  this  point,  but  wa  had  discussions  about] 

672  passports  at  that  tiaa,  who  would  ba  travaling. 

673  Thay  would  not  say  who  was  going  to  traval  at  that 
67it  point  in  tiaa,  although  wa  wara  lad  to  baliava  that 

675  Hcrarland  was  going  to  aaka  a  trip.   Ha  was  rafarzad  to  as 

676  Mr.  Good. 

677  Aftar  that  aaating  wa  discussad  airczaft  routings 


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and  times--hou  ue  could  acconnodata  it  because  we  had  a  real 
shortage  of  aircraft  availability  and  ue  had  to  jockey  our 
systen  around  in  order  to  acconnodate  the  trips  iron  the 
U.S.  into  Tel  Aviv  and  back. 

Ue  were  finally  able  to  do  that,  and  basically  that 
is  it  in  a  nut  shell. 

2    That  is  it  for  that  flight.   Here  there  more  than 
one  flight  to  Iran? 

A    Yes.  and  I  didn't  travel.   What  basically  happened 
is  I  kind  of  got  out  of  the  hoop  on  all  this  because  Paul 
was  flying  the  trips.   Paul  Gilchrist  was  flying  the  trips, 
and  it  was  a  weight  of  nanagement,  ny  tine,  to  be  intimately 
involved  because  he  was  going  to  be  doing  it  and  he  can 
represent  the  conpany  just  as  well  as  I  could  in  these 
discussions,  so  I  kind  of  got  out  of  it.  and  most  of  the 
discussions  were  between  Langton  and  Gilchrist,  to  Gadd  or 
mainly  to  Gadd.  I  guess. 

2    Let's  see  with  that  maybe  we  can  fit  the  documents 
in. 

The  document  that  is  page  787  came  up  at  what 
point? 

A    I  don't  recall.   This  was  on  a  trip  that  Gilchrist 
and"  Tootle  made  to  meet  with  Gadd.  and  I  don't  recall  the 
date  of  that. 

2    Has  it  in  pzepazatlon  fox  the  flight  that  you  just 


«MXs;fjffl 


72 


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703 
70H 
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71S 


dtts.czibad? 

X    It  may  hava  been.   Oz  it  nay  have  been  another  one. 
I  don't  recall. 

fi    Whose  writing  do  you  recognize  there? 
A    The  numbers  and  schedule  are  Bob  Poirson's  writing, 
and  the  names  down  here  in  the  lower  left,  that  is  in  Paul 
Gilchrist's  handwriting. 
2    Okay. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Let's  mark  page  787  as  Exhibit  2. 
[The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPn-2 
for  identification:  1 

xiicxxxxxxx)ir  INSERT  IB- 2  xxxxxxxxx/ 


DNtussm 


73 


NAHE:  HIR03U002 


UNCLASSIFIED 


PAGE     31 


716 
717 
7  18 
719 
720 
72  1 
722 
723 
72<4 
725 
726 
727 
728 
729 
730 
731 


.  .       BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

C    I  show  you  pages  788,  and  789  and  ask  you  if  you 
tttcognize  them? 

A    788  I  can't  even  read.   No,  I  don't  recognize  that, 
e    All  right.   page  789? 
A    Yes,  I  recognize  789. 

2    Can  you  describe,  identify  it,  explain  what  it  is? 
A    This  was  a  list  that  was  prepared  by  Bob  Poirson 
for  Paul  on  questions  that  he  wanted  answered  on  one  of  his 
trips  to  Washington,  but  I  don't  recall  which  trip. 

KR.  TIEFER:   Let's  nark  page  789  as  the  next 
exhibit. 

[T>ie  following  docunent  was  narked  as  Exhibit  OPn-3 
for  identification:] 

xxxxxcxxxxx  INSERT  1B-3   xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNCUSSinED 


74 


HAME  •• 
732 
733 
731* 
735 
736 
737 
738 
739 
7140 
741 
7««2 
7U3 
71*4 
71*5 
746 
747 
748 
749 
750 
751 
752 
753 
754 
755 
756 


HIR034002 


UNOASSIFIED 


PAGE    32 


BY  HR.  TIEFER: 


fi    I  show  you  pages  818  thorugh  821  and  ask  you  i£   you 
can  identify  these.' 

A    Yes.   I  believe  this  represents  Paul's  notes  on  his 
first  trip>  I  believe,  first  trip  to  Tel  Aviv  and  then  on. 
That  is  all  I  know. 

e    Do  you  know  what  was  done  with  these  after  he 
prepared  these? 

A    He  prepared  these  on  ATC  in  our  office  himself,  and 
gave  a  copy  to--let  me  read  it  and  then  give  a  copy  to  Bill 
Langton,  and  then  I  don't  know  what  happened  to  them 
thereafter . 

2    Here  they  ever  prepared  in  a  less  rough  form>  ever 
redone? 

A    He  thought  this  was  pretty  rough.   I  an  sure —   I 
don't  know.   I  don't  want  to  speak  fox  Paul. 

2    You  have  no  knowledge  of  any  other  version  being 
prepared  ? 

A    Ko. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Let's  mark  page  818  through  821  as 
Exhibit  4. 

(The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPH-4 
for  identification:  ] 

xxxxxDcKxxx  INSERT  1B-4  xxxxxxxxx/ 


m&m& 


75 


HAKE 
757 
758 
759 
760 
761 
762 
763 
7614 
765 
766 
767 
768 
769 
770 
771 
772 
773 
774 
775 
776 
777 
778 
779 
780 
781 


HIR03M002 


(INCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    33 


.  .       BY  HR.  TIEFER: 

Q    I  show  you  page  822.   Do  you  recogniza  it? 

A    No. 

Q    I  show  you  paga  823.   Do  you  racogniza  that? 

A    Unless-- 

C    I  don't  mean  to  rush  you. 

A    Well,  unless  822  may  be  the  and  of  Paul's  report--! 
think  he  made  some  racomnandations ,  didn't  he? 

S    All  right.   On  that  basis,  let's  make  page  822  a 
iinal  paga  to  the  exhibit  previously  marked.   That  will  be 
part  of  Exhibit  U ,  DPH-!4. 

Is  it  possible  that  page  823  is  part  of  the  sane 
document;  perhaps  not?   Do  you  recognize  page  823? 

A    Ko ,  but  you  want  speculation? 

S    No,  I  don't  want  speculation,  but  if  you  have  a 
basis  for  recognizing  it,  I  would  be  interested. 

A    X  wouldn't  think  it  would  be  part  of  his  report, 
although  it  is  a  map  of  that  area,  and  you  see  these  numbers 
written  in,  those  are  probably  wind  velocity  and  direction 
and  temperatures  at  altitude. 

S    You  ware  not  familiar  with  this,  so  I  won't  make  it 
an  exhibit. 

I  will  ask  you  if  you  recognize  page  830. 

A    Ko. 

2    I  will  ask  you  if  you  recognize  pages  831,  to  83U. 


UNCIASSIRED 


76 


NAnE  = 
782 
783 

7814 
785 
786 
787 
788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
7914 
795 
796 
797 
798 
799 
800 
801 
802 
803 
80^ 
805 
806 


HIR0314002 


PGIASSIHED 


PAGE    314 


fi    Do  you  recognize  pages  83H   and  83i4B? 

A    KO/  it  is  a'  standard  form  we  send  out  on  most 
charter  flights,  but  I  have  not  seen  this  one.   I  mean,  I 
have   no  need  to  have  seen  it.   I  haven't  seen  either  one  of 
these.   These  are  nuts  and  bolts  things  that  I  don't  get 
involved  with. 

S    I  understand.   From  your  knowledge  of  the  way  this 
matter  was  run,  is  it  likely  that  Paul  Gilchrist  would  be 
familiar  with  these  particular  documents? 

A    He  might  have  seen  them,  he  might  not  have. 

S    I  show  you  a  series  of  documents  from  1760  through 
1777,  and  a&k  you  if  you  have  seen  these. 

A    He  can  give  you  some  numbers.   I  saw  1762. 

S    If  you  will  do  it  that  way,  why  don't  you  read  the 
name  on  each  form  where  you  know — saw  the  form? 

A    Frank  Bell's  secrecy  oath. 

e    Okay. 

A    17614,  David  P.  Mulligan's  secrecy  oath.   Those  are 
the  only  ones  I  have  seen. 

9    Is  there  a  way  you  can  give  an  explanation  as  to 
why  you  saw  two  in  particular,  and  not  the  rest? 

.  ~  A    One  was  mine.   The  other  one  was  Frank  Bell's  who 
is  our  manager  of  crew  scheduling,  and  I  had  him  sign  it. 
He  really  had  no  knowledge  of  what  was  going  on,  but  in  case 


UNCIASSIFIED 


77 


NAME:  HIR03'4002 
807 
808 
809 
810 
811 
812 
813 
811 
815 
816 
817 
818 
819 
820 
821 


CNcussife 


PAGE    35 
ha  did,  sutnisa  what  was  going  on.   Ha  was  now  sworn  to 
saoracy,  but  he  really  didn't  have  any  idea. 

Q    Can  you  explain  the  background  around  which  you 
caaa  to  sign  such  a  forii? 

A    I  think  Bill  Langton  asked  ne  to  sign  it. 

At  what  point  in  this  natter  did  that  occur? 
I  can't  avan  renamber. 

Has  it  before  the  flight  took  place  or  after? 
I  can't  even  remaabaz. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Let's  nark  the  two,  1762  and  176M,  the 
two  you  recognized  as  the  next  exhibit. 

[The  following  docunant  was  narked  as  Exhibit  DPH-S 
for  idantifrication:  ] 

xxxxxxxxxx  XHSERI  1B-5  xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNOASSIHED 


78 


XAHZi 
822 
823 
821) 
825 
826 
827 
828 
829 
830 
831 
832 
833 
83i( 
835 
836 
837 
838 
839 
8M0 
8il1 
8M2 
8143 
8^>l 
8i|5 
8X6 


HZ»03U002 


DCIfK   SIEVKNS 


BNCUJSIfe 


P&GK         36 


BY    HR.     TZEFKK: 

9    I  will  show-  you  a  pa9*>  731,  which  has  a  nujtbar  oi 
naaas  and  boxas  sozt  of  on  a  ttaa,  you  aza  not  familiar  with 
that,  you  hava  not  saan  this  paga  bafoza,  hava  you? 

k    No. 

fi    But  you  zacogniza  sona  of  tha  nanas? 

A    Yas. 

fi    Can  you  say  which  naaas  you  taeogniza  and  whathaz 
thay  wozk — whathaz  thay  hava  wozkad  at  any  tima  at  Southazn 
llr  Tzanspozt? 

A    I  zacogniza  Hilliaa  Coopaz — 

e    AncI  ioz  aach  ona.  ii  you  would  say  a  littla  about 
whan  you  baliavad  thay  wozkad  at  Southazn  Alz  Tzanspozt? 

A    Coopaz,  to  ay  knowladga,  navaz  wozkad  at  Southazn 
Aiz. 

B    Hhat  do  you  zacogniza  hiit  fzon? 

A    Ha  was  coozdinating  tha  aaintananca  activitias  ioz 
tha  C-123S  and  tha  C-7s  as  thay  caaa  thzough  Hiani  haading 
south.   That  is  my  association  with  Coopaz. 

wozkad  ioz  us  and  Z  guass  ha  want  down 
south  and  did  soma  maintananca  ioz  tham  down  thaza.   Ha 
works  foz  us  now. 

I  knaw  him  basically  in  tha  sama 
capacity  as  Coopaz,  actually  wozking  ioz  Coopaz  coozdinating 


mm^^ 


79 


Ntnzi 

847 
8<48 
8>49 
850 
851 
852 
853 
854 
855 
856 
857 
858 
859 
860 

86  1 
862 
863 
8614 
865 
866 
867 
868 
869 
870 

87  1 


HIR03M002  lllllil  U.^Airil*ll        PtGS    37 
th<  aainttnanoa  aiatlvltlas,  puxohasas,  things  lik*  that. 

9    Did  h«  avar  woiK  for  Southain  Air  Transport? 

*    No. 

ha  ilaw  as  a  craw  nanbar  for  us  and  than 
was  on  a  laava  of  absanoa.   Ma  was  not  working  for  us  during 
tha  parlod  down  thara. 

I  aat  onca  or  twlca.   I  Knaw  hlii  only  as 
a  pilot.   Ha  navar  workad  for  us. 

Sawyar  had  workad  for  Southarn  Air  as  a  pilot. 
During  this  parlod  of  tlma  ha  was  not  anployad  by  Southarn 
Air. 

I  racognlza  no  othar  naaas  on  that  list.   I  saa  an 
^^^^■hara',  tha  nana  is  vagualy  faalllar  to  aa  as  ona  of 
our  aachanlcs.  but  I  don't  know  hla  and  I  don't  know  what 
his  status  was. 

S  ^^^^^Hyou  ballava  workad  for  Southarn  Air 
Transport? 

A    I  don't  want  to  say. 

fi    No  ona  alsa  on  tha  list  you  xacall  as  having  workad 
for  Southarn  Air  Transport? 

A    No. 

fi    Hlth  raspaot  to  Ht .  Sauyar.  do  you  know  how  ha  cama 
to  laava  Southarn  Air  Transport  and  ba  aaployad  by  tha 
oparatlon  in  Cantral  Aaarlca.  If  you  undarstand  what  I  maan 
by  tha  oparatlon  In  Cantral  Anarlca? 


UNCIASHD 


80 


NAME  I 
872 
873 

874 
875 
876 
877 
878 
879 
880 
881 
882 
883 
88U 
885 
886 
887 
888 
889 
890 
89  1 
892 
893 
894 
895 
896 


HI]103>(002 


UNCUSSffi 


PAGI         38 


i   Y«t.   Ko.   I  don't  know  how  that  happansd. 
S   With  zaspact  ^^i^^^^^^^^V  ^^   ^^^  >^o>'  ^^*'   ^*  cana 
to  laava  Southazn  -Alz  Tzanspozt? 
A    No. 


No. 


Do  you  avan  zenambaz  thasa  paopla  laaving? 
I  zanambaz-- 

HR.  KIRSTEIN:   I  Don't  think  his  tastlaony  was  that 
avaz  laft  tha  anploy  of  Southazn  Alz. 
THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  zanambaz  how  that  was 
handlad.   I  think  ha  was  just  tzansfazzad  down  thaza  oz  what 
tha  status  was.   Ha  Is  still  with  us.   I  zamaabaz  Sauyaz  and 
^laaving . 

BY  m.    TIEFER) 
e    You  do? 
A    Yas. 

e    What  do  you  zaitasbaz  about  thaa  laaving? 
A    Thay  laft.   I  itaan.  nothing  zanazkabla  about  that. 
Thay  laft. 

S    Did  anyona  know  whaza  thay  had  gona? 
A   No — wall,  you  pzasuna  thay  waza  down  thaza,  yes. 
.  '  2    On  what  basis  did  you  pzasuna  that? 

A    You  knaw  sonathing  was  going  on  down  thaza  and  thay 
indlcatad  to  a  faw  paopla  whaza  I  got  it  sacond  hand  that 


UNCUSSIHED 


81 


iiNcujsro 


KAKE:  HIR03M002   ^  ■  « ^^bf  ItJLill  II  II        PAGE    39 

897  tha.t  is  whars  thay  wera  and  that  is  whara  thay  wantad  to  be. 

898  fi    How,  had  Sawyer  as  a  pilot  worked  under  you,  that 

899  is,  was  ha  one  of  the  subordinates  of  yourself? 

900  .    A    Well,  indirectly  through  the  chief  pilots  and  vice 

901  president,  flight  operations. 

902  2    I  don't  know  whether  you  developed  an  impression  or 
•  903  not,  did  you  have  any  feeling  whan  one  of  your  people  left 

9014  to  do  something  else? 

905  A    In  Buzz'  case,  I  thought  that  given  the 

906  circumstances  it  was  a  natural  thing  for  him  to  do. 

907  2    And  why  did  you  feel  that? 

908  A    Because  I  have  always  viewed  Buzz  as  a  soldier  of 

909  fortune  type. 

910  e   Has  there  something  in  his  background  that  you  knew 

911  that  made  you  view  him  as  a  soldier  of  fortune  type? 

912  A    Ho.   nothing  specifically.   There  wera  just  an  aura 
9  13  about  Buzz. 

9  It  S    Although  you  have  said  that  you  did  not  recognize 

915  this  particular  place  of  paper,  a  number  of  names  have  been 

916  taken  from  it.  let's  market  it  as  the  next  exhibit.  731  will 

917  b«  tha  next  one. 

918  [Tha  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPn-6 
9  19  for  identification:  1 

920 

921  xxxxxxxxxx  IKSERT  2-1  xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNCLASSIHED 


82 


NAnE  = 
922 
923 
92M 
925 
926 
927 
928 
929 
930 
931 
932 
933 
93U 
935 
936 
937 
938 
939 
940 
941 
942 
943 
944 
945 
946 


HIR034002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    40 


BY  MR.  TIEFER! 

2   Charter  quotations  by  Southern  Air  Transport  are  or 
are  not  handled  in  your  department? 

A    Not  handled. 

Q    In  whose  department  are  they  handled? 

A    Sales . 

2    I  show  you  a  document,  a  series  of  documents  irom 
1148  to  1159,  I  may  90  through  them  one  by  one.   The  top 
one,  first,  page  1147  and  1148. 

A    This  is  it? 

2    That  is  it. 

MR.  KIKSTEIK:   It  is  the  back  of  a  file. 
BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

2    Let  me  ask  you  if  it  assists  you  in  understanding 
it  that  my  understanding  is  thatthose  are  the  front  and  back 
covers  of  a  file. 

A    Yes,  now  that  I  see  this  one,  I  recognize  this. 

2    Mould  you  explain  what  the  file  is? 

A    I  had  a  very  thin  file  that  I  labeled  innocuously 
as  ''charter''  and  that  was  the  cover  of  the  file,  my  front 
cover.   This  must  have  been  on  the  back  cover.   It  says  the 
back  cover,  so  I  have  to  say  it  was  there. 

.  '  S   Can  you  tell  the  circumstances  under  which  you 
started  to  keep  such  a  file? 

A    Yes.   Your  dates.   Bill  Langton  told  me  that  Dick 


I 


UNCIASSIHED 


83 


HAHE 

947 
9X8 
9U9 
950 
951 
952 
953 
954 
955 
956 
957 
958 
959 
960 
961 
962 
963 
964 
965 
966 
967 
968 
969 
970 
971 


HZR034002 


UNCLASSIFIED 


PAGE    41 


Gadd  had  a  sciias  of  trips  In  order  to  nova  sona  cargo,  it 
was  not  sp«cliic  what  tha  cargo  was.  but  it  was  sansitivra  m 
nature  is  what  I  was  led  to  believe  or  actually  told,  iron 
^^^^^H  to  Central  Araarica,  destination  unspecified  at  that 
point . 

Ue  at  that  tima  did  not  operate  707  aircraft  and  it 
had  to  be  done  with  a  jat  airplane  because  of  the  payload 
and  I  think  Bill  had  originally  quoted  Gadd  using  the  Here, 
but  the  price  was  astrononical  because  it  could  carry  only 
about  half,  so  it  was  not  good  acononics . 

Bill  asked  ma  to  naka  sub-sarvica  arranganants > 
actually  broker  the  trip  out.   So  I  handled  that  and  became 
tha  point  o'f  contact  with  Dick  Gadd  on  these  trips,  and  I 
contracted  with  Arrow  Air  to  do  two  trips  and  I  don't  know 
whether  this  file--as  I  recall,  I  don't  have  any  notes  from 
the  second  trip.  I  think  these  all  pertained  to  the  first 
trip,  but  we  did  two  sub-service  with  Arrow  Air. 

X  think  one  was  in  January,  early  January.   I  am 
not  sure  exactly.   I  think  the  other  one  in  February  or 
narch. 

fi    Did  you  normally  handle  sub-charters? 
A    No.   Ha  wanted--this  was  considered  to  be  very 
san'^itiva  in  nature  and  I  think  that  Bill  Langton  and  myself 
were  tha  only  two  people  in  tha  company  that  ware  aware  of 
these  trips  and  people  may  have  had  an  inkling  of  what  was 


UNCLASSIFIED 


84 


RIR03il002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    HZ 


NAKK> 

972  going  on.  but  Z  think  w«  woxa  th*  only  two — I  can't  suaax  to 

973  that,  but  Z  ballava  h*  waxa,  thaxa  may  hava  baan  somabody 
97>4  alsa,  but  Z  didn't 'tall  anybody  alsa.  although  1   may  hava 

975  gottan  Bob  Poitson  involvad  with  a  littla  bit  oi  paziphaxy 

976  information  just  to  halp  with  soma  oi  tha  azzangamants  ioz 

977  Atzow.   Z  can't  zacall. 

978  But  in  satting  him  up,  Z  nagotiatad  tha  pzica  with 

979  Azzow  and  nagotiatad  tha  schadula,  and  Bill  Langto^ 

980  nagotiatad  tha  pzica  with  Gadd. 

981  S    Did  you  talk  to  Gadd  at  all? 

982  A    Oh,  yas,  Z  had  a  lot  of  oonvazsations  with  Gadd. 

983  e    Did  you  talk  to  anyona  alsa  wozking  foz  Gadd? 
98U       A    Pzioz  to  going  or  aftaz  thay  want  or — 7 

985  e   Start  with  prior. 

986  A    Prior,  no.   Tha  arrangamants  initially  wara  all 

987  with  Gadd.   Thay  oparatad  on  tha  waakands  and  tha  first  trip 

988  was  dalayad  wall  ovar  2i|  hours ^^^^^^^Hdua  to  tha  fact 

989  that  tha  fzaight  was  lata,  tha  fraight  was  coming — Z  was  lad 

990  to  baliava  tha  fraight  was  coming  fl^H|H|^Hand  it  was 
coming  in  on  ^^^^^^^^^^^|  and^^^^^^^^waselosad  dua  to  a 

992  snow  storm. 

993  Hhila  wa  wara  axparianoing  this  dalay.  Arrow 

99M  obviously  was  quita  upsat  baeausa  thay  had  othar  things  for 

995  thair  airplana  to  do,  tha  customar  was  upsat  and  Dick  was 

996  fzuitlassly  going  through  Dick  Gadd  in  Washington  baeausa  ha 


UNCUSSIFIED 


85 


NkHIi 
997 
998 
999 
1000 
1001 
1002 
1003 
lOOM 
1005 
1006 
1007 
1008 
1009 
1010 
101  1 
1012 
1013 
101(t 
1015 
1016 
1017 
1018 
1019 
1020 
1021 


UNCUSSIHED 


HIX03I4002    UllllLflllllirir  II      ft^^t         U3 
oooildn't  9lva  ■•  any  Iniocaation  so  what  happanad  is  tha 
cowiunloatlons  link  Instaad  oi  using  OloK  as  tha  point  9uy> 
I  stattad  daallng  dliactly  ulth  a  contact  ovar  thara  and  tha 
guy's  nana  was  Tom  Cllnas,  or  Cllnas.  I  an  not  sura.   And  I 
talkad  to  hln  a  nunhar  oi  tlaas  ovar  tha  waakand,  whan  It  Is 
going  to  ba  raady>  at  catara.  at  catara.  at  catara. 

Thara  was  an  outiit  ovar  thara  also  calling  through 
trying  to  gat  iniornatlon,  just  iniornation.  a  conpany 
callad  ''Daiects''>  and  thara  wara  soma  othar  paopla  whosa 
nanas  do  not  raadily  cona  to  mind,  but  thay  ara  in  tha  notas 
probably. 

And  I  nay  coniusa — thara  wara  two  trips  and  thay 
both  had  problans  so  Z  nay.  gat  soaa  oi  tha  datalls — 

fi   Tha  January  and  tlarch  trips  you  naan? 

A    Thay  both  wara  scrawad  up.   Tha  trip  in  Harch,  tha 
custonar  wantad  a  naxinun  anount  oi  payload  capacity.   It  is 
high  density  iraight,  doas  not  taKa  up  a  lot  oi  voluna.   In 
ordar — tha  airplana  that  thay — that  Arrow  usad  was  a  stretch 
DC-8  that  had  18  pallet  positions.   The  ireight  could  be 
spread  over  13  pallet  positions,  so  in  order  to  conserve 
weight,  I  told  Arrow  only  ship  13  pallets,  don't  ship  18. 
you  can  save  iive  tines  250  and  that  can  convert  to  payload. 

Aiter  being  told  unpty-unp  tines  only  to  take  13 
pallets  when  they  got  ^^^^^^^|  there  were  no  pallets. 
They  totally  blew  it  and  they  were  late  getting  there,  too. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


86 


UNCLASSIFIED 


N&HSi  KZK03il002    VIlVkTIUUII  IkM      ^'^^^        **** 

1022  .  -  I  forgot  how  lata  thay  waia.   So  It  was  a  zaal 

1023  ilaaoo,  with  Azrow  trying  to  gat  pallats 
102<4  Thalr  oradlt  was  not  vary  good;  thay  had  to  hand 

dalivar  a       to|^^|^^^^H^^^H|^H  oiilca  In  Kew 

1026  to  buy  pallats  im^  than  and  as  soon  as  thay  had  tha  nonay 

1027  in  hand,  tha  Maw  York  ofiica  told^^H^^^HHI  to  ralaasa 

1028  tha  anpty  pallats  to  than,  bacausa  you  can't  load  dizactly 

1029  on  tha  floor. 

1030  In  tha  naantina,  I  aa  talking  back  and  forth  with 

1031  Ton  Cllnas  again  and  ha  is  aad  as  a  wat  han.   Ha  is  saying 

1032  ha  is  gatting  all  sorts  of  prassura  from  Saoord.  and  X  had 

1033  not  prior  to  that  nat  Sacord,  but  ha  told  u»   that  ha  was  an 
103*1  axtranaly  impatiant  guy  and-  would  not  tolarata  anything  but 

1035  parfaotion  and  that  this  was  unaooaptabla.  and  Z  said  what 

1036  tha  hall  aa  Z  supposad  to  do  about  it? 

1037  You  know,  and  also  sonawhara  in  thasa#  I  had  ona  or 

1038  two  convarsatlons  and  X  can't  ranaabar  tha  datails  of  aithar 

1039  convarsation  with  this  Xlbart  Hakla  and  Z  think  that  was  for 
lOUO  halping  with  soaa  docxmantation  on  tha  trips,  but  Z  an  vary 
lOm  vagua  on  it,  vary,  vary  vagua  at  that,  on  that. 

10<«2  fi    You  wara  making  all  thasa  calls  froa  your  offica 

10H3  h«x«7 

lOUU  .  ~  A    Xo,  iroa  ay  hoaa  aostly. 

1045  fi    Why  froa  your  hoaa? 

1046  A   It  was  tha  waakand. 


iimsim 


87 


HIR0314002 


UNClASSre 


PAGE  us 


NAME: 

1047  .  .      How,  the  calls  that  lad  up  to,  for  the  ariangenents 

lOUS  and  Avarything  else,  were  done  during  the  week  irom  my 

10U9  oifice,  but  when  everything  went  to  hell  in  a  hand  basket, 

1050  it  was  over  the  weekend,  so  most  of  the  calls  were  from  my 

105  1  home . 

1052  S    Okay. 

1053  A    Most  of  the  arrangements  were  done  from  the  office. 
lOSU  C    You  had  not  known  Secord  before? 

1055  A    No. 

1056  e    You  had  not  known  Hakim  before? 

1057  A    I  don't  know  Hakim.   I  only  talked  to  him  once  or 

1058  twice. 

1059  2    Have  you  met  Clines  before? 

1060  A    I  had  never  met  Tom. 

1061  e    You  had  known  Gadd  before? 

1062  A    Yes. 

1063  S   What  was  the  context  in  which  you  had  known  him? 

1064  A    He  had  a  business  relationship  with  him  where  he 

1065  was  providing,  I  guess-- 

1066  fi   tet  ma  say,  we  have  had  previous  information  that 

1067  nay  have  b«en--his  contract  may  have  been  of  a  sensitive 

1068  natuza  and  wa  don't  want  to  go  into  it  if  it  is  of  a 

1069  sansitlva  nature. 

1070  A    It  is  of  a  sensitive  nature. 

1071  Q    Let's  leave  it  at  that. 


UNCLASffD 


88 


NiHK> 
1072 
1073 
107U 
1075 
1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 
108M 
1085 
1086 
1087 
1088 
1089 
1090 
1091 
1092 
1093 
10914 
1095 
1096 


UNClASSra 


HZX03II002   llllil.l  U.^.lll  II  U       PAGX    U6 
A   But  this  is  oi  sansltlva  natux*.  too. 
HR.  KXRSTEIN:   It  Is  a  dliiarant  kind. 
IHE  HITHESS!   I  know,  but  I  just  want  to  bring  a 
llttla  lavity  to  this. 
BY  HR.  TIEFERs 
Q    Had  your  contact  with  Gadd  only  been  In  the  context 
oi   that  sensitive  contract  that  ha  had? 
A    Yes,  and  support  thereof, 
fi   Do  you  know  what  the  cargo  was  that  was  I 


X   I  guess  It  would  be  speculation.   I  don't  think  I 
was  ever  definitely  told  that  it  was--Dick  always  referred  to 
it  as  pineapples  or  things  like  that,  but,  you  know — 

fi   When  he  said  that,  did  you  know  for  a  fact  ox  have 
a  very  stxong  suspicion  that  it  was  not  pineapples? 

A    I  knew  it  was  not  pineapples. 

e    Old  you  now  it  was  hazardous  aaterial? 

A    I  think  I  did. 
Yes,  I  did,  yes. 

S   In  the  course  of  your  conversations  with  these 
vaxious  people,  did  you  have  an  impression  whether  they  had 
previously  shipped  such  material? 
.  ~  A   Mo.   I  had  no  impression. 

fi   Old  the  way  they  were  making  arrangements  give  you 
any  impression  as  to  whether  they  wexe  declaxing  to  the 


iiNcussm 


89 


■».. " 


ONCLASSIHED 


Hinti  RIt03<400a    VllVkllWII  ■kl'      PAGX    147 

1097  goyatnBcnts  Involved  along  th«  May  on  this  trip  axaotly  what 

1098  thay  war*  shipping? 

1099  A    Tha  Imptasslon  I  got  was  that  It  was  graasad  at 

1100  ^^^^^^1  and  at  tha  and,  at  tha  dastlnatlon,  but  nothing  was 
110  1  dona  In  batwaan.   Thay  wata  just  transits. 

1102  fi    And  li  you  can  tall  what  It  was  that  gava  you  that 

1103  luprasslon. 

110<(  K        I  just  think  tha  way  tha  whola  thing  was  handlad. 

1105  Uhan  you  hava  a^^^^^^Bdilrplana  coning  Into  tha  largast 

1106  civil  airport  In  tha  country  and  you  ara  trans-loading  90- 

1107  odd-thousand  pounds  of  fralght.  you  hava  got  ground  handlazs 

1108  Involvad,  you  hava  got  OEFEX  handling  papar  work  and  things 

1109  of  that  nat'ura,  you  hava  C),lnas  ovax  thara  and  It  lad  na  to 

1110  ballava  that  it  was  ollad. 

nil  I  can't  spacliloally  say  that  It  was,  but  tha 

1112  Imprasslon  certainly  was  thara. 

1113  fi    And  did  you  form  an  laprasslon  at  tha  tlaa  as  to 
111<«  who  tha  ultimata  customar  fox  this  was? 

1115  A    It  would  ba  ay  Imprasslon  only. 

1116  e    Yas. 

1117  A    Yas. 

1118  8    Hhat  was  your  Imprasslon? 

1119  .  ~  A    Hall,  that  It  was  going  to  ba  funnalad  parhaps 

1120  through  U.S.  sourcas  In  Cantral  Amarlca  to  tha  contras. 

1121  e    Did  you  hava  an  Imprasslon  whathar  It  was  a  U.S. 


UNClASSinED 


90 


NAnE  = 

1122 
1123 
1  1214 
1  125 
1  126 
1  127 
1  128 
1  129 
1  130 
1  131 
1  132 
1  133 
1  134 
1  135 
1  136 
1  137 
1  138 
1  139 
1  IMO 
1141 
1  142 
1  143 
1  144 
1  145 
1  146 


HIR034002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    48 


Government  operation  or  not? 

A    Yes,  I  had  the  feeling  that  it  was. 

2    And  what  gave  you  these  impressions? 

A    Well,  let  me  further  amplify  that.   I  didn't  think 
that  Dick  Gadd  was  operating  as  an  international  arms 
merchant . 

Q    Okay. 

A    I  just  felt  that  it  was  being  dona  for  a  government 
agency.   I  can't  be  more  specific  than  that,  but  I  think  it 
would  have  given  us  some  problems,  too,  if  we  had  felt  that 
Gadd  was  operating  as--this  is  an  editorial  or  comment--but  if 
Gadd  had  been  operating  independently,  we  would  have  had  a 
real  problem  with  that. 

2    And  what  would  your  problem  have  been? 

A    Uell,  you  know,  we  don't  fly  arms  around,  we  don't 
fly  arms  around  for  any  Tom,  Dick  or  Harry. 

2    In  fact,  do  you  know  of  Southern  Air  Transport  ever 
flying  arms  around  for  anyone  other  than  the  United  States 
Government? 

A    I  have  no  knowledge. 

fi    Suppose  I  referred  to  hazardous  material.   Do  you 
know  of  Southern  Air  Transport  flying  hazardous  material 
around  for  anyone  else,  the  U.S.  Government? 

A    Oh,  sura. 

2    For  who  else  does  it  fly  hazardous  cargo? 


iimmm 


91 


Mixoanooa 


UNClflSSIFIFD 


PAGE    U9 


IlluttxmtlonS/  you  don't  hav*  to  nan*  th«a. 

A    I  oan't  oii   tha  top  o£   my  haad>  you  know,  custonars 
probably  llka--ua  did  ona>  I  can't  ranambar  tha  custonars. 
but  oil  drilling  axploslvas  and  things  oi  that  natuta,  sura. 
Nothing  unusual  about  that. 

But  thay  ara  not  nunltions. 
fi    Lat's  go  through  tha  rast  of  tha  documants  in  your 
iila.   Ha  will  saa  uhathar  wa  maka  tha» — 
\        That  is  dirty  pool  this  ona . 

HR.  KIRSTEIN:   Tha  lawyars  ara  to  blaaa  for  that. 
THE  HITNESS'   Yas.  you  gat  tha  blaiia  for  that.   Had 
I  not  saan  this  I  navar  would  hava  raoognizad  that. 
BYHR.  TIErER' 
S    By  tha  way>  on  paga  imS,  do  you  raoogniza  tha 
inscription  or  tha  phona  nunbar  now  that  you  hava  looked  at 
it? 

t    Yas >  that  is  ny  writing  and  doodling  on  Dick  Gadd's 
nunbar . 

e   Do  you  raoogniza  paga  11i(9? 
i    Yas. 

fi    Can  you  axplain  what  it  is?   Would  you  identify  it? 
A    Yas>  and  this  ralatas  to  aithar  ona  of  tha  two 
AzxoN  trips.  X  don't  ranambar  which  ona,  probably  tha  first 
ona.   And  it  is  tha  nama  of  an  individual  with] 
^^^^^■and  thay  ara  a  ground  handling  agant. 


iifnussm 


92 


NAHZi 

1172 
1173 
117«i 
117S 
1176 
1  177 
1178 
1  179 
1180 
1181 
1182 
1183 
1  18M 
1185 
1186 
1187 
1188 
1189 
1190 
1191 
1  192 
1193 
1194 
1195 
1196 


HZR03U002 


iiNCUssm 


PiGX         SO 


^-   a   Do  you  hftva  any  zacollaotion — doas  this  zaizash  youz 
zaoollaotion  as  to  what  this  individual  might  hava  dona? 

k        1   think  that  thay.  Clinas  had  nada  azrangamants 
with  than  to  do  tha  tzans-load.   It  is  ioz  tha  loading  of 
tha  alzczait,  nothing  aoza,  nothing  lass.   Not  that  I  know 
of  any  way. 

fi    Did  you  spaak  to  this  pazson? 

A    I  don't  zamambaz  if  I  did  oz  not. 

e    I  show  you  paga  1150. 
Do  you  zacogniza  it? 

X    Yas>  vagualy. 

e    Can  you  axplain  what  it  is? 

k        I  baliava  that  it.is~it  is  only  a  baliai — that  it 
was  Ton  Clinas*  hotal  nuabaz,  hotal  rooB,  and  than  just  soma 
notas  that  Z  wantad  to  giva  hla.   Tha  plana  was  dalayad,  I 
was  tailing  him  whan  it  was  going  to  azziva,  I  mada  a  nota 
how  long  it  takas  to  load  it  and  gat  out  o£   thaza  and  I 
guass  my  iinal  nota  is  whan  it  would  azziva  at  tha 
dastination. 

e    ill  zight.   Paga  1151? 

A   Oh>  yas,  this  was — Azzow  invoiead  us  in  addition  to 
tha  basio  zata  thay  ohazgad  foz  tha  tzip.  «30,000  damuzzaga 
ohazgas  ioz   tha  dalay  dua  to  tha  snow  stozm^^^^^^^^^Hand 
wa  did  not  pay  it. 

e    What  is  documant  1151?   I  think  I  zaoogniza  it. 


uNCUtssve 


93 


UNCLASSIFIED 


HIK03*4001    llllVLnWII   IkV  PAGE         51 

1    It  Is  an  Involc*  iroa  know  to  Southern  ior 
damuiiag*  chargaa  oi  two  days.  I  ballava. 

fi    Could  this  ba  a  KazoK  of  an  anvalop  with  &  window 
In  It? 

I        That  Is  probably  a  fair  stataaant,  yas . 

fi    1152,  do  you  racognlza  that? 

k        That  Is  an  anpllilad  varslon  of  1151.   Hy  maaory  Is 
battar  than  I  thought. 

fi    Battar  than  you  said,  Z  an  not  sura  It  Is  a  John 
Daan  maaory. 

i    It  Is  not. 

fi    Paga  1153. 

I        It'  Is  ay  writing  and  it  doasn't  aaan  a  thing  to  aa 
now  today.   It  Is  obviously  soaa — a  flight  Itinerary,  but  It 
doasn't  aaan  anything  today. 

fi    1154. 

A   Tha  first  nuabars  aza  Azzow  Air's  local  phona 
nuabar,  soaa  notas  about  landing  rights  Including 
dastlnatlon  and  I  told  thaa  that  that  was  thalr 
rasponslblllty. 

Dapartura  tlaa .   Tha  othar  notas  ara  tailing  thaa 
tha  oustoaar  would  handla  tha  onloading  and  offloading. 

.  "      Also,  instructing  Arrow  that  thay  hawa  to  taka  cara 
of  ground  aqulpaant.   Also  asking  Arrow  for  tha  aircraft 
registration,  craw  naaes  and  tha  arrival  tlaa 


UNCLASSIHED 


94 


iiNJUssm 


HAKE:  HIR03U002         'VbriUIIIIII  ||      PAGE    52 


1222 
1223 
122^ 
1225 
1226 
1227 
1228 
1229 
1230 
1231 
1232 
1233 
123>t 
1235 
1236 
1237 
12  38 
1239 
12M0 
12m 
12>42 
12X3 
12>4<4 
12U5 
121(6 


.  .       Basically,  notes  to  myseli  of  questions  to  ask  or 
statements  to  make  to  Arrow. 

fi    Mould  you  have  kept  a  record  oi  the  names  of  the 
crew? 

A    I  think  I  wrote  it  on  a  piece  of  paper  and  threw  it 
away  after  I  passed  it. 

e    Page  1155? 

A    I  don't  remenber  this.   I  mean,  I  don't  have  any 
good  recollection  of  it. 

8    Based  on  it,  let  me  ask  you  a  question  or  two.   It 
purports  to  be  a  telex  to  the  attention  of  Mr.  Poirson  and 
nr .  Mulligan.   Do  you  recall  telexes  being  sent  back  and 
forth  at  all  on  this  matter? 

A    No,  there  was  telexes  or  hard  copy  messages  sent 
which  were  flight  itineraries  but  never  was  the  shipment  in 
any  of  our  telexes  ever  listed,  and  something  else  comes  out 
on  this  one.   This  Mr.  Wiegensberg,  I  first  recall  that  Gadd 
told  me  that  the  shipment  was  being  handled  out  of  Canada  or 
brokered  out  of  Canada  by  a  company  called  Iransworld — 

Q    Arms . 

A    — arms.   I  think  this  Ulegensbarg  was  with 
Transworld  Arms  but  I  don't  now  what  happened,  but  X  think 
h*  "Sell  out  of  the  loop  somehow  in  the  whole  process. 

S    Kow  that  your  memory  from  years  ago  which  is 
holding  up,  it  is  coming  back  to  you.  does  the  fact  that  a 


UNCUSSIFIfD 


95 


^nmssim 


Ntni>  KII103*4002  ^^ VII  Iff  If       PAGE    53 


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1218 
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1250 
1251 
1252 
1253 
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1256 
1257 
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1260 
1261 
1262 
1263 
126K 
126S 
1266 
1267 
1268 
1269 
1270 
1271 


ooapany  with  th*  naa*  Transworld  Atas  took  part  in  It,  was 
that  also  part  of  why  you  wars  under  tha  inprasslon  that 
arms  sight  ba  baing  shipped? 

A    Yas,  that  is  right.   Gaaz>  it  wasn't  pinaapplas. 
Kow  I  find  out. 
[ Laughtar . ] 

BY  MR.  TIEriR' 

fi    Lat's  go  out  oi  saquenca  a  littla  and  I  show  you 
paga  1157,  anothar  doeunant. 

A    Okay.   Iha  nassaga  itsali,  not  tha  notas.  tha 
iiassaga  itsali  was  sant  out  by  Arrow  and  it  is  a  flight 
advisory  itinerary  just  providing  basio  iniornation 
concarning  tha  trip. 

And  it  lists  tha  consignaa  oi  tha  freight  in 
ilDF  olass  3-C. 

fi    Uhat  does  olass  C  explosives  mean  to  you? 

A    It  can  mean  any  number  oi  things  but  in  this  case 
ue  knew  it  was  ammunition.   Really  there  is  not — X  suppose  it 
is  an  itinerary  message,  set  up  sheet. 

e   Old  Arrow  Air,  as  well  as  Southern  Air  Transport, 
know  that  this  was  ewplosives? 

A    Z  think  Z  told  them  it  was  olass  C  and  I  did 
not' — they  knew  it  was  explosives  but  I  did  not  tell  them  that 
it  was  ammo. 

KR.  KIRSTEZNi   They  might  have— 


iintimm 


96 


UNCIASSIHED 


NXHE>  RXX03U002   Ul  IUI.JIUUI  I  IbU       PAGE    5U 


1272 
1273 
127I* 
127S 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 
1282 
1283 
12814 
1285 
1286 
1287 
1288 
1289 
1290 
1291 
1292 
1293 
12911 
1295 
1296 


THE  WITNESS!   I  told  thaa  it  was  class  C,  thay 
flguiad  It  out,  too. 

BY  MR.  TIEFER: 
e    Is  that  your  handuzitlng? 
A    Y»s. 

S    Can  you  axplain  what  It  signifies,  what  that  does 
signify? 

MR.  KIRSTEIN:   Did  you  ever  talk  to  Secozd? 

THE  WITHESS:   No.   You  know,  the  interesting  thing 
is  I  nevez  did  talk  to  Secozd.   I  think  I  Got  these  nunbers, 
these  weze  notes  I  believe  I  made  at  home  over  the  weekend 
when  one  of  the  trips  was  opezating .   I  don't  know  why  I 
have  Hiegensbezg 's  nana  down  thaze,  but  I  believe  in  ay 
convezsations  with  Ton  Clines  he  was  the  one  that  gave  na 
all  these  nunbers  ioz  Secozd. 

BY  MR.  TIEFER: 
S    These  phone  numbers 7 

A    These  phone  numbers.   Hhen  I  told  Gadd  that  I  even 
have  Secozd 's  oar  phone  number,  Gadd  expzessed  a  little 
displaasuz*  that  I  even  had  that.   Basically,  what  happened 
on  this  trip,  because  of  the  snafus,  all  the  coordinating 
activities,  Gadd  was  cut  out  of  that  loop  and  I  was  dealing 
dlz'ect  with  Tom  Clines  who  gave  me  the  impression  that  he 
was  working  for  Secozd. 

So  I  make  a  note  here  that  the^^^^Hf light  is 


mmms 


97 


HAHK' 
1297 
1298 

1299 
1300 
130  1 
1302 
1303 
13014 
1305 
1306 
1307 
1308 
1309 
1310 
1311 
1312 
1313 
131<4 
1315 
1316 
1317 
1318 
1319 
1320 
1321 


HIK03M002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PACK    SS 


904ng  to  arciv*  Uadnasday  at  0130Z.  tha  rast  of  It  doasn't 
■•an  such  to  ■•• .   I  navaz  did  contact  Sacozd. 

fi    Has  Atzow  Air  working  with  you  on  tha  shipmant  out 
arranganants  or  had  thay  lait  all  that  to  you,  tha  ground 
azrangenants^^^^^^^^^Hand  daaling  with  tha  dalays  and 
such? 

A    I  was  gatting  fad  tha  Information  on  tha  delays. 
tha  first  trip  was  dalayad  bacausa  of  tha  H^^^Kilight  baing 
delayed  out  °^^^^^^^^K     ^  was  gatting  that  inforaation  on 
arrival  times  from  Tom  Clinas  who  was  in  Lisbon. 

Than  I  would  in  turn  advise  Arrow  whan  they  could 
expect  tha  connecting  flight  to  ha  in. 

Arrow  made  their  own  handling  arrangements  for 
fuel.  air.  and  electric.   Somebody  over  there  made 
arrangements  for  the  loading  of  the  freight.   I  can't 
remember  who. 

S    What  about  at  tha  other  end.  the^^^^^^^^^end,  is 

that  the  destination?  

Yes.  tha        trip       to^^^^^^^and  tha 
arrangements.  I  was  told  by  Gadd.  ware  handled,  don't  worry 
about  it.  when  it  gets  down  there--!  am  talking  about  the 
offload  of  the  freight. 

e    Yes. 

A    The  offload  of  tha  freight  was  taken  care  of.  it 
was  handled  by  Gadd.   I  don't  know  who  was  going  to  do  it. 


UNCUSSIHED 


98 


NAHK> 
1322 
1323 

132M 
1325 
1326 
1327 
1328 
1329 
1330 
1331 
1332 
1333 
133U 
1335 
1336 
1337 
1338 
1339 
13*40 
13<41 
131421 
13^3 
13*414 
13*45 
13*46 


KZ&03(4002 


UNClASSinED 


PAGE    56 


but  It  Has  dona. 


And  tha  giound  powax,  at  oataza>  was  Azrou's 
zasponslblllty  to  maka  azrangemants  ioz  that. 

fi    Looking  again  at  1157,  do  any  oi  tha  othaz  nanas  on 
heza  maan  anything  to  you] 


A    I  was  provldad  that  nana  as  tha  conslgnaa  by  Dick 
Gadd. 

e    Did  ha  glva  you  any  Indication  whathaz  that  was  a 
zaal  parson  who  was  going  to  zacalva  tha  arms  oe  was  a 
usaiul  nana  Ilka  tha  usaiulnass  of  tha  wozd  ' 'plnaapplas ' ' ? 

A    Ha  lad — I  led--I  ballava  It  was  a  bonailda  pazson. 

fi    You  thought  tha — - 

A    Laglt. 

e        You   thought   tha    azits   waza    going    tol 

A    Yes,  yas.   Yes.   Thara  was  no  doubt  in  ay  alnd .   I 
didn't  know  how  you  could  gzaasa  it  through 
without  sanding  it  thzoughj 

3    On  tha  lower  part  oi   tha  page,  af tar^l^HBthara 
is  a  naaa.  Kr . — perhaps  I  an  wrong  to  say  ''Hr.*'] 
is  that  a  nana  that  means  anything  to  you? 

A    I  aa  sorry.   Where  are  we? 
.  ~  a   Let  aa  show  you.   It  could  be  that  that  is  not  a 
naaa  at  all,  but — 

A    It  is  a  naaa.   I  think  it  is  tha  naaa  oi  a — yas,  I 


UNCLASSIFIEO 


99 


KANK 

1347 
13148 
13M9 
1350 
1351 
1352 
1353 
135M 
1355 
1356 
1357 
1358 
1359 
1360 
1361 
1362 
1363 
1364 
1365 
1366 
1367 
1368 
1369 
1370 
1371 


HIK03I4002 
think  it  Is  th«  ii»na9«t 


UNCIASHD 


PAGE    57 
who  was  th«  handling  agant 


fi    Two  linas  balow  that  thara  is  a  Hr.  Btown,  doas 
that  hava  any  signiiicanca ? 

A    Spaoulation.   As  you  S&»>    it  says  MKPA,  which  I 
baliava  is  Antigua,  and  you  sea  LIAT,  that  stands  for 
Laeward  Islands  Air  Transport,  and  it  is  a  local  airlina  in 
tha  Wast  Indies  or  tha  Windwa,r<;l  Islands  thara,  and  ona  would 
assuna  that  Mr.  Brown  is  probi^bly  tha  station  manager  there 
and  they  are  asking  for  providing  ground  and  air. 

This  is  a  st^ndouLd   set-up  message  you  do  in  any 


transit , 


airline. 


HR.  KIRSTEIK>   LIAT  stands  for  "lata,  if  at  all" 


BY  HR.  TIEFER> 

e    And  "regards.  Jack  Creed"  at  the  bottom? 

A    Jack  Creed  worked  or  does  work,  I  am  not  sure,  in 
Arrow's  cargo  sales  department  and  he  sat  out — he  was  the  one 
that  sent  out  this  set-up  messaga. 

fi    Here  you  dealing  with  him  mostly  over  there  or 
somebody  else? 

A  I  dealt  with--very  briefly  with  him.  I  was  dealing 
primarily  with  a  gentleman  by  the  name  of  Son  Ewing,  who  was 
their  director  of  flight  control. 

2    Do  you  know  whether  Ewlng  and  Creed  are  still  at 


UNCUSSIHFD 


100 


KAHE: 
1372 
1373 
137U 
1375 
1376 
1377 
1378 
1379 
1380 
1381 
1382 
1383 
13814 
1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
1391 
1395 
1396 


HIR03>4002 


ArzoH? 


mmm 


PAGE    58 


A    I  beliave  they  both  are. 

e    Okay. 

A    They  Here  really  in  the  dark  on  this  thing. 

2    How  did  you  know  that? 

A    They  didn't  ask  any  questions  and  I  didn't 
volunteer  any  iniozmation.   It  was  as  i£  they  didn't  want  to 
know.   It  was  just  a  trip  to  then. 

2    I  show  you  page  1158. 

A    This  is  a  message  that  was  sent  out  by.  if  you  look 
at  the  botton.  ''Perry/JH  Flight  Control''.   J.H.  Is  Arrow 
Air's  two  letter  identifier.   This  message  was  just  advising 
us  of  a  re\/ised  itinerary  for  that  trip.   I  think  what  I 
have  done  is  crossed  it  off  because  I  didn't  believe  it. 
then  I  verified  it,  and  I  wrote  good  tises,  and  the  other 
notes  don't  mean  anything  to  me. 

e    The  fact  it  was  a  crew  of  five  U.S.  nationals,  does 
that  mean  anything  to  you? 

A    Yes.   But  I  don't  know  why  there  would  be  a  crew  of 
five.   Other  than  it  doesn't  mean  anything  to  me. 

fi    I  show  you  1 156 . 

A  Okay.  This  was  on  one  of  the  trips,  a  contact  for 
Albvrt  Hakim,  and  I  am  not  sure  if  cross  references  may  not 
show  that  that  is  the  same  number  as  DEFEX  offices. 

e    You  mean  phone  number  or  telex  number? 


mmm 


101 


1397 
1398 

1399 

moo 

1(40  1 
1U02 

mo3 

1<40I4 

itos 

1t406 

mo? 
mo8 
mo9 

1*410 

mi  1 

1*412 
11413 

imi4 
mis 
mu 
mi? 

1<418 

im9 

1(420 
1421 


UNCLASSIRED 


HIX03<4002    IllVltl  M.l.lll  ir  II      PtaX    59 

A    Y*s .   Th«  phon*  nunbar.   Tha  hotal  nunbar,  too«  823 
undatnaath  that,  that  was  I  ballava  for  Cllnas  and--oh.  Z 
knoM  what  this  was  about.   I  told  Azxow  that  I  would  gat  tha 
traiilo  rights ^^^^^^^H  for  than  and  that  is,  that  is 
anothar  raason  why  I  baliava  it  was  gzaasad  ovar.   Thay  got 
traffic  rights  and  it  was  slow  ooaing  and  I  baliava  wa  avan 
sant  tha  airplana  without  landing  rights  ovar  thara. 

I  an  a  littla  sKatchy  on  that.   Trying  to  gat 
through  tha  Clinas,  Clinas  was  trying  to  arranga  it  or 
sonabody  in  DETEX  of flea,  thara  is  anothar  nana  which  I  an 
sura  you  will  gat  to. 

fi    Doas  th^  nana  Josa  Carnal  maan  anything? 

I        Dr*.  Carnal.   Z  only  talkad  to  hia  onca.   Z  don't 
racall.   Zt  was  ovar  thasa  traffic  rights,  and  thara  was 
anothar  guy.  Lunas  or  sonathlng  Ilka  that.   Rakla  was  tha 
guy  that  finally  notifiad  na  whan  Z  got  in  touch  with  him 
that  ha  ox  sonabody  had  sacurad  tha  landing  rights. 

fi    Has  that  an  unorthodox  procadura  to  sand  a  plana 
ovar  without  landing  rights? 

&   No.   Hall,  wa — wall,  yas .   I  was  lad  to  baliava  that 
thay  wara  forthooaing,  though,  so  it  was  kind  of  a  rola  of 
tha  dlca.   Z  had  avary  raason  to  baliava  thay  wara  going  to 
pun  through. 

Zf  it  was  lass  than  a  90  parcant  shot,  Z  couldn't 
hava  dona  it. 


UNCLASSIFEI 


102 


NAME: 

1(t22 
1>(23 

m25 
1426 
1427 
1428 
1429 
1430 
1431 
1432 
1433 
1434 
1435 
1436 
1437 
1438 
1439 
1440 
1441 
1442 
1443 
11144 
1445 
1446 


UNCLASSra 


HIR034002    UllllL^llljII  11  II       fJ^GH         60 

S   You  nay  have  said  this,  vtas  Hakin  in  the  United 
States  during  this  time? 

A    I  think  he  was  over  there. 

e    So  let  ne  have  your  impressions  as  to  where  the 
players  were.   Clines  was  over  there?   In  Portugal? 

A    Clines  was  over  in  Portugal. 

Q    Do  you  believe  Hakim  was  in  Portugal? 

A    He  was  either  th^re  or  San  Francisco.   I  don't  know 
why  I  think  he  might  have  been  in  San  Francisco.   But  my 
memory  does  not  serve  me  well. 

2    Hhere  did  you  believe  Secord  was? 

A    Didn't  have  a  clue. 

Q    Aiid  Gadd? 

A   Gadd  was  in  Washington. 

Q   You  were  talking  to  him  only  by  telephone? 

A    I  wasn't  talking  to  him  on  this  because  he  couldn't 
do  anything. 

e    1159. 

A    I  recognize  the  names.   I  don't  remember  anything 
about  it. 

S    And  might  the  phone  numbers  that  are  shown  be  for 
Josa  Garnel? 
.  ~  A    Oh,  yes.   I  am  sura  they  are.   I  aa  sura. 

2    Here  you  trying  to  reach  him?   Or  was  someone  just 
letting  you  know  how  to  reach  him? 


UNCLASSinED 


103 


NAHE 

1UM7 
IMMS 
114  49 

mso 

IKS  1 
11452 
11453 
lUSU 

mss 

1M56 
1MS7 

loss 

1U59 
1<460 
1X61 
1X62 
1X63 
1X6X 
1X65 
1X66 
1X67 
1X68 
1X69 
1X70 
1X71 


HZX03X002 


UNcussro 


PAGZ         61 


SoB«body  l«t  B*  know  how  to  taaoh  him.   I  probably 


did  laach  him.   I  had  rnoi*  pzoblams  going  on  with  that.   I 
can't  zamanbar  uho  I  contactad  foi  what  with  all  tha 
problams  associated  with  this. 

Q    Ooas  tha  word  ''parking  azrangad'*? 

A    Ha  may  hava--I  can't  laaglna  asking  hin  for  parking 
arrangements  because  that  is  something  I  would  have  asked 
^^^^^1  about,  so  I  don't  know. 

I  don't  know  what  that  number  at  tha  bottom  where 
it  says  ''HONT'"  after  it? 

S    Yes. 

A    That  doesn't  ring  a  bell. 

fi    Is'  tha  name  Mr.  >-t-u-n-e-s,  could  that  ba  tha  Mr. 
Lunes  you  refarzad  to  you  ware  trying  to  placa? 

A    yes.   And  Brito  might  be  his  first  name. 
The  ^^^^^^Bneansl 

A    Yes.   I  don't  know.   I  don't  know  who  ha  is  with 
anymore . 

2    Do  you  have  any  idea  why  this  is  on  a  place  of 
paper  that  says  ''Amfac  Hotel' '? 

A    Yes,  I  think  several  months  before  I  took  a  trip  to 
Dallas  and  I  stayed  at  Amfac  and  it  was  just  a  piece  of 
papvr  I  had  lying  on  ay  desk. 

fi    Okay. 

MR.  KIRSTEIK:   How  about  a  rastroom  break  here? 


"fimsim 


104 


m72 

1U73 
1474 
147S 
1476 
1477 
1478 


UNCDUSIFIED 


KAHE:     HIK034002      lllll.l    ll.\\lff>li>ll  PAGE         62 


HR.    TIErER:       Sure. 

Let's  mazk  this  as  Exhibit  1,    the  entire  set  of 
records,  1143  through  1159. 

[The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPH-7 
for  identification: ] 

x*********  IMSERT  2-2  *********/ 


(INCUSSIflED 


105 


HIR03'4002 


DCI1N    CUINTERO 


VNCussm 


PAGE  63 


BY    HR.     TIEFER: 

2    Back  on  the  tecord  . 
I  show  you  documents  17i*8  through  1752. 

A    Yes . 

2    Do  you  recognize  these  pages? 

A    Yes  . 

2    Can  you  identify  them? 

A    This  is  a--1748  is  a  check  request.   It  is  a 
Southeastern  Air  form.   And  it  was  a  check  request  to  pay 
Arrow  Air  in  advance  ior  a  charter  flight,  one  of  which  we 
have  already  discussed. 

2    Before  we  go  away,  did  you  fill  that  form  out? 

A    I  didn't  fill  this  out,  but  I  think  probably  what 
happened  is  I,  probably  on  the  phone,  told  somebody  in 
finance,  more  specifically,  our  vice  president  of  finance, 
that  I  needed  «107,000. 

2    Who  was  that  at  the  time? 

A    Probably  at  that  time  it  was  Tom-- 

S    Does  the  name  Crummey  mean  anything? 

A    Tom  Crummey;  yes.   He  probably  had  somebody  fill  it 
out  and  issue  the  check,  and  I  passed  the  check  on  to  Arrow. 

e    You  did  the  check  in  your  hand? 

A    Yes,  I  believe  X  did. 

2    Is  that  usual?   I  guess  you  didn't  normally  handle 


UNCLASSIFIED 


106 


UNCussra 


NiHK>  HZR03i(003  IIIVI.I  ll\\ll*l^ll        PACK    6M 

1S0H  o&«rt«zx7 

1505  A   Ko,  I  don't  normally  handl*  chartazs.   But  as  Z 

1506  statad  aazli«r>  Z  was  tha  only  point  of  contact  Mlthln 

1507  Southazn  Aiz  on  this,  thasa  chaztaz  tzips. 

1508  S    Paga  17h9? 

1509  A    Zt  is  just  a  standard  aircraft  chaztaz  contzact  foz 

1510  Azzow,  with  Azzou,  foz  tha  tzip  ua  talked  about. 

1511  e    Did  you  hava  any  dealings  with  David  Sowezs? 

1512  A    Sowers?   He  was  there  vice  president  of  sales. 

1513  He  really  didn't  get  involved  in  any  of  the  selling  of 
151*1  this  trip  at  all,  but  it  becana  a  sales  function  when  you 

1515  got  down  to  picking  up  the  money  and  signing  the  contract. 

1516  so  he  handled  it.   The  resi  of  it  is  just  addenda  to  tha 

1517  contract. 

1518  e    1752? 

1519  A    This  is  a  check  zequest  for  the  first  trip,  and  you 

1520  Bight  know  that  the  second  trip  was  more  extensive  than  the 

1521  first.   That  is  because  they  were  unhappy  with  the  way  the 

1522  fizst  one  want  so  with  tha  delays  with  theflHHflight. 

1523  They  didn't  even  want  to  do  it  and  Z  talked  them  into  it. 

1524  and  they  raised  the  price.   As  it  turns  out  they  completely 

1525  botohed  the  second  one. 

1526  ~  They  actually — that  zeminded  me  they  owe  ma  «3,000  bucks; 

1527  so  we  aze  pzobably  even. 

1528  nR.  TZEFER:   Let's  mazk  this  as  the  next  exhibit. 


immsm 


107 


HAHE:  HIR034002 
1S29 
1530 


UNCLASSIHED 


1531 
1532 


PAGE    65 
iTha  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DMP-8  for 
identification:  1 


«******«*«    INSERT    3    -     1       ***xx*x*x/ 


iimiFiEii 


108 


NAHE: 
1533 
153U 
1S3S 
1536 
1537 
1538 
1539 
15140 
1541 
15142 
1543 
1544 
1545 
1546 
1547 
1548 
1549 
1550 
1551 
1552 
1553 
1554 
1555 
1556 
1557 


HIR034002 


ONGlASSinED 


PAGE    66 


BY  HR.  TIEFER: 
fi    Do  you  know  this  document? 
A    Ho  real  memory. 

2    Do  you  recognize  the  handwriting? 
A    Yes:  Poirson. 

e    You  said  you  were  the  only  real  contact  point,  but  a 
number  oi  times  you  have  mentioned  Poirson' s  name.   Did  he 
have  a  iair  knowledge  of  what  was  going  on? 

A    He  knew  that  X  was  dealing  with  Arrow  for  a  trip;  he 
knew  some  oi  the  routings;  he  didn't  have  any  idea  what  the 
cargo  was.  or  any  of  the  other  details. 

HR.  KIRSTEIN:   This,  from  the  date,  doesn't  have 
anything  to'  do  with  Arrow;  does  it? 

THE  WITNESS:   No:  I  think  what  this  piece  of  paper 
is,  it —  the  Arrow  flight  was  when? 

MR.  KIRSTEIK:   January  and  March  of  1985. 
This  was  your  first — 

THE  HITNESS:   This  was  much  later. 
BY  HR.  TIEFER: 
fi    Let's  put  this  aside  before  we  go  to  this.   Now,  we 
have  gone  over  a  lot  of  documents.   I  just  want  to  see  if 
anything  more  comes  back  to  you  about  the  January  and  March 
198S  flights. 

Did  anything  happen  between  the  first  and  the  second--did 
you  discuss  with  anybody  this  seemingly  strange  event  that 


UNCUSSm 


109 


HIR03<4002 


UNCUSMD 


PAGE  67 


had  taken  place,  or  the  new  people  you  had  talked  to? 

A    I  am  not  sure  I  understand  what  you  mean  by 
''strange  events.''      "" 

S  If  you  don't  accept  my  characterization,  the  events 
that  had  taken  place  on  the  January  trip,  the  difficulty  of 
arranging  for  delivery. 

A    No,  nothing  happened. 
You  know>  when  you  fly  airplanes  on  a  charter  basis  all 
over  the  world,  regardless  of  what  the  nature  of  the  freight 
may  be,  whether  it  is  hazardous  material  or  not,  you  have 
difficulties  on  an  ad  hoc  basis.   It  Is  not  like  flying 
scheduled  service. 

There  'was  nothing  unusual  about  any  of  these  trips,  as  far 
as  Z  was  concerned,  given  ay  expaxiencA. 

These  types  of  operations  are  fraught  with  difficulties. 

8    Kow,  this  was  a  different  type  of  plane  than  the 
planes  that  Southern  Aix  Transport  had? 

A    Yes. 

2    Large  planes — did  that  provide  any  thought  on  your 
part  about  the  usefulness  of  Southern  Air  Transport  having 
such  planes?   Here  there  any  discussions  that  cane  out  of 
that? 

~  A    I  think  we  had  made  a  corporate  decision,  long 
before  any  of  these  trips,  to  get  into  another  aircraft 
type.   Clearly,  we  didn't  get  into  the  707  to  form  these 


UNCIASSIHED 


no 


NAHE: 

1583 
1584 
1585 
1586 
1587 
1588 
1589 
1590 
1591 
1592 
1593 
159>4 
1595 
1596 
1597 
1598 
1599 
1600 
1601 
1602 
1603 
160(« 
1605 
1606 
1607 


UNGIASSIFIED 


HIR03i«00flll«l|l    U^^ll    II    11  PAGE  68 

typ.es    of    trips    because    you   can   go    broke    in   a   hurry   if    that 
is   your    only   line    of   business. 

2    When  had  the  decision  been  made  to  get  707s? 

A    Oh/  probably  in  October  of  1984 .   He  had  a  senior 
marketing  meeting  and  the  decision  uas  made  at  that  time 
that  we  had  to  expand  the  product  line.   He  can't  just  offer 
the  Hercules,  we  had  to  offer  an  airplane  as  large  as  the  13 
pallet  position  jet  freighter.   That  is  when  that  discussion 
was  made . 

2    By  senior  management,  who  would  have  participated  in 
that? 

A    The  chairman,  the  president,  and  senior  vice 
presidents,'  and-- 

S    Hho  were  yourself  and  Mr.  Crummey — 

A    Charlie  Carson,  Bill  Langton,  Jim  Bastian;  also  at 
that  meeting  was  Asa  Hemperly,  vice  president  of  sales;  and 
Carl  Holivei,  who  is  no  longer  with  us,  director  of 
personnel;  and  Ray  Taranto.   But  there  was  a  decision  made 
by  the  senior  management  group  to  expand  into  another 
airplane. 

fi    Has  anyone  tasked  to  go  start  the  acquisition 
process? 

'  k        I  eventually  was  assigned  the  project  and  traveled 
to  Kuwait,  and  completed  the  purchase  of  three  airplanes 
from  the  ■4tuwaile3e,  Kuwait  Airlines. 


UNCussra 


Ill 


NAnE  : 
1608 
1609 
16  10 
16  11 
16  12 
16  13 
16  m 
1615 
16  16 
16  17 
1618 
1619 
1620 
1621 
1622 
1623 
1624 
1625 
1626 
1627 
1628 
1629 
1630 
1631 
1632 


HIR03U002 


ilNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE     69 


-  C    When  did  you  go  to  Kuwait? 

A    Oh,  March  of  1985,  after  I  finished  fooling  around 
with  Arrow. 

2    Did  you  know  how  many  of  them  you  would  buy? 

A    Mall,  before  I  went  over  there  obviously  identified 
TeleK  Comnunications  with  them,  knew  they  had  three 
available,  three  were  for  sale.   And  so  I  went  over  there 
and  spent  a  month  negotiating  the  purchase  oi  the  three 
airplanes  and  their  entire  spares  package. 

2    By  yourself? 

A    I  had  a  technical  representative  with  me  who  did  the 
final  inspection  of  the  airplanes  and  then  I  had  a 
couple--two  of  those  guys.. to  do  records  research  and  then  I 
had  another  guy  who  was  an  aircraft  broker  and  he  eventually 
ended  up  leaving  and  I  finished  the  deal  myself. 

Q    Did  Bill  Langton  or  Jim  Bastian  participate  at  all? 

A    Ho;  only  by  giving  me  a  lot  of  advice  over  the 
phone . 

S    What  was  their  advice? 

HR.  KIRSTEIK:   Lower  the  price? 

THE  WITNESS:   Lower  the  price,  right. 

BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

S    Did  you  succeed  in  louezing  the  amount  in  youz  month 
in  Kuwait? 

A    Yes. 


UNcussra 


112 


NAME: 

1633 
16311 
1635 
1636 
1637 
1638 
1639 
16(40 
16(41 
16((2 
16U3 
16(4U 
16U5 
16M6 
16(47 
16(48 
16(49 
1650 
1651 
1652 
1653 
165(4 
1655 
1656 
1657 


HIR03(4002 


UNCLASSra 


PAGE  70 


-  fi    By  hoH  much,  roughly? 

A    (»  million;  (4.5  million. 

2    What  was  it  when  you  iirst  started? 

A    *10.5  million. 

2    And  it  came  down  to? 

A    $6.5  million. 

2    Did  that  cover  your  expenses? 

A    Barely. 

2    When  did  you  complete  the  discussions? 

A    Sometime  aiter  Easter  of  that  year.   I  know  I  was 
over  there  a  long  time. 

2    And  did  the  sale  take  place  shortly  thereafter/  or 
not  for  a  while? 

A    Hell,  we  executed  a  sales  document  prior  to  my 
departure.   And  we  took  delivery  probably  two  months  later 
on  the  first  airplane,  I  think  it  was  June,  Hay  or  June. 

2    Did  you  know  whether  other  airlines  were  attempting 
to  buy  these  planes  at  the  same  time? 

A    There  were  other  interested  parties  in  the 
airplanes . 

2    Did  you  have  the  sense  you  were  competing  with  them, 
oz  the  Kuwaita**  were  trying  to  get  you  to  compete  with 
them? 

A    I  think  they  would  have  like  to,  but  you  would  have 
to  have  perseverance  in  dealing  with  them.   First  of  all. 


UNCLASSIHED 


113 


UNCLASSIFIED 


NAME:  HIROSMOOZ  IIIVIll    Malalll    II    II  PAGE  71 

1658  thay  hava  to  establish  your  credibility. 

1659  They  are  very  leery,  and  they  had  to  qualify  ma  as  a 

1660  legitinate  buyer.   That  took  sone  time  before  they  would 
166  1  enter  into  serious  negotiations. 

1662  2         During  that  time  did  you  have  a  sense  of  what  the 

1663  other  potential  buyers  were  willing  to  pay  for  these  planes? 
166>4       A    Ho. 

1665  2    Did  the  Kuwait***  —  thay  navar  — 

1666  A    No.   One  of  the  advantages  that  wa  represented  to 

1667  Kuwait  was  that  we  were  willing  to  take  all  three  airplanes, 

1668  which  was  their  last  707s  and  their  entire  inventory,  that 

1669  was  unique  to  the  707s,  and  took  it  all  off  their  books. 

1670  Most  of  the  people  going  in  were  brokers,  they  wanted  to 

1671  do  onesies  or  twosies,  were  not  intarastad  in  the  inventory, 

1672  or  only  portions  of  it,  so  we  were  in  a  position  to  take 

1673  everything  off  their  books.   So  as  a  package  it  was 

1674  attractive  to  them. 

1675  If  they  had  been  patient  and  given  a  batter  geographical 

1676  location,  they  could  have  piecemaaled  it  out  and  realized  a 

1677  greater  incoma.   But  they  uexa  smart  in  gattlng  rid  of  it  as 

1678  thay  did. 

1679  2    You  said  you  got  advice  over  the  telephone.   Here 

X 

1680  any  Teles  sent  back  and  forth  to  you  while  you  were  there, 

1681  letters  or  other  written  communications? 

1682  A    No. 


UNCUSSinED 


114 


NAHE: 

1683 
168(4 
1685 
1686 
1687 
1688 
1689 
1690 
1691 
1692 
1693 
16914 
1695 
1696 
1697 
1698 
1699 
1700 
1701 
1702 
1703 
1704 
1705 
1706 
1707 


UNCIASSIHED 


HIR03>4002         llllll.l    flXXIHI^II  PAGE  72 

-2        Did   you   corae    baclT  with  "any   documentation? 

A    Yes>  a  sales  contract. 

2    But  other  than  that,  no  menos  or  reports,  or 
anything  like  that? 

A    Ko.   Uell,  I  got  a  file  this  thick,  other  than  the 
sales  contract,  that  shous  you  all  the  parts  that  went  with 
it  and  things  like  that. 

2    But  Bill  langton  would  have  to  take  your  word  ior  it 
as  to  everything  you  said  took  place  in  the  negotiations? 

A    He  would  have  to  take  ay  word  for  it. 

2    Okay. 

A    Yes,  and  the  proof  was  in  the  pudding  as  it  was 
delivered.   I  am  still  here,. 

2    I  show  you--let*s  go  back  to  773,  which  has  the  date 
December  1985  on  it.   Do  you  have--you  have  said  you  don't 
have  a  recollection  of  that? 

A    No  recollection. 

2    Except  you  think  it  is  Bob  Poirson's  handwriting? 

A    It  is  Bob  Poirson's  handwriting;  yes. 

2    Do  you  recall  a  flight  in  December  1985 
corresponding  to  this? 

A    No. 

2    Okay. 

A    Specifically  on  a  date.  no.   We  may  have;  we  may  not 
have.   I  don't  think  we  ever  did  go  to  Bermuda  on  any  of 


UNCIASSIHED 


115 


NAHK>  MXXOSUOOa 


Mmm  ■-' 


73 


1708 
1709 
1710 
1711 
1712 
1713 
1714 
171S 
1716 


thos«  routings  to  C«ntral  Aaarloa. 
fi    Or  from 
A    FromI 
fi    You  racognlz*  th*  handwriting? 

HR.  TZErCRi   Lttt's  nark  this  as  tha  naxt  axhlblt. 
( Tha  following  docxmant  was  narkad  as  Exhibit  EPH-9  for 
ldantlilcatlon<  ] 

xxxxxxxxxx  XKSERT  3-2  xxxxxxxxx/ 


UNcussra 


116 


KAnE  = 
1717 
1718 
1719 
1720 
1721 
1722 
1723 
172«4 
172S 
1726 
1727 
1728 
1729 
1730 
1731 
1732 
1733 
17314 
1735 
1736 
1737 
1738 
1739 
17140 
17m 


HIR0314002 


mmrnn 


PAGE  74 


BY    HR.     TIEFER: 

2.   Previously  you  described  certain  forms  that 
reflected  cargo.   Let  me  show  you  number  687  and  ask  you  if 
you  are  familiar  with  that  form? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  the — 

A    The  form.  I  am — I  have  never  seen  this  sheet  before. 

Q    Okay. 
Can  you  describe  the  significance  of  the  form? 

A    It  is  a  general  declaration.   You  have  got  to  stamp 
it  out  and  stamp  it  in  by  customs,  list  the  aircraft  number, 
company  that  operates  the  aircraft,  flight  number,  the  date; 
point  of  origin:  destination,  the  crew  members,  cargo,  and 
the  rest  is  self-explanatory. 

Q    This  has  nothing--this  particular  form  has  nothing 
filled  in  in  the  cargo  box  or  am  I  wrong? 

A    It  doesn't  because,  probably,  it  was — the  cargo 
manifests  were  attached  so  that  probably  took  care  of  it. 

e    And  who  fills  this  out? 

A    The  company. 

fi    Heaning  Southern  Air? 

A    Yes. 
~  e    Hho  in  Southern  Air  would  fill  this  out? 

A    Most  of  the  time  if  it  is  out  of  Hlami,  somebody  in 
the  sales  and  service  department  would  handle  it,  or  if  it 


mmm 


117 


UNCLASSIHED 


NAME:     HIR03M002      Ull  tJL.nLltJII    ILU  PAGE  75 


17142 
1743 
17U14 
1745 
1746 
1747 
1748 


is-not  out  of  Miami  tha  ctaw  can  handurita  it  in. 
fi    All  right. 

MR.  IIEFER:   nark  this  as  tha  naKt  axhibit. 
[The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPH-IO  for 
identification: ] 

INSERT  3-3  x*««*xxxx/ 


UNCLASSIHES 


118 


NAME: 

17U9 
1750 
1751 
1752 
1753 
17514 
1755 
1756 
1757 
1758 
1759 
1760 
1761 
1762 
1763 
1764 
1765 
1766 
1767 
1768 
1769 
1770 
1771 


HIR03i<002 


UNGUSSIFIED 


PAGE    76 


BY  MR.  TIEFER: 


2   Looking  at  document  688>  do  you  recognize  this  type 
of  form? 

A    It  is  a  cargo  manifest. 

2    And  can  you  explain  the  significance  of  this  type  of 
form? 

A    It  is  a  standard  document  that  has  to  accompany  the 
freight,  and  it  lists  who  the  operator  is,  the  flight 
number,  the  date,  departure  and  arrival  points  and  number  of 
pieces,  description  of  the  goods,  and  who  the--or  or  what  the 
wait  is . 

Then  in  this  case  it  shows,  I  guess,  who  the  consignee  is 
and  there,  says  there  is,  t-his  must  mean  there  is  a  shippers 
export  document  accompanying  this. 

2    You  mean  the  SED  in  the  right  column? 

A    Yes  . 

2    Mho  fills  this  out? 

A    The  service  department. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Hark  that  Exhibit  11. 
I  The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPH-II  for 
identification:  I 

xxncxxxxxxx  IKSERT  3  -  M  *********/ 


UNCussm 


119 


HAHE  : 
1772 
1773 
1774 
1775 
1776 
Mil 
\118 
1779 
1780 
1781 
1782 
1783 
178U 
1785 
1786 
1787 
1788 
1789 
1790 
1791 
1792 
1793 
1794 
1795 
1796 


HIR03U002 


UNClASSra 


PAGE  77 


BY    HR.     TIEFER: 


a  ThiS-- 

A    I  think  this  is  the  complete  SED,  right? 

Q    Perhaps  I  have  other  pages.   Let  me  see  that  back. 

A    I  think  you  chopped  off  the  top. 

2    This  is  689? 

When  you  say  incomplete-- 
A    I  think  the  Xerox  top  is  missing. 
2    That  is  689? 
A    Yes  . 

2    Can  you  understand  it  even  with  the  missing  top? 
A    Yes.   But  X  don't  deal  with  this  from  very  often  so 
I  an  in  unchartered  territory  here. 

S   Do  you  know  who  fills  this  out.  if  it  is  done  by  SATl 
A   ^his  would  be  done  by  the  shipper. 
8    Let's  not  make  that  an  exhibit  yet. 

I  show  you  691.  692,  and  690. 
A    What  is  the  difference  between  690  and  691--689? 
2   I  an  tempted  to  say  1 . 
A   What? 

HR.  KIRSTEIH:   It  is  the  same  document,  it  got 
coplad  twica  for  soma  reason. 

HR.  TIEriR:   Yes,  thay  look  lika  the  sana  document. 

HR.  KIRSTEIN^   Thay  are  apparently  the  same. 

THE  WITNESS:   Thay  are  the  sana. 


UNClASSinEI 


120 


HAHE:     HIR0314002 


UNCUSSIFIED 


PAGE    78 


1797 
1798 
1799 
1800 
1801 
1802 
1803 
180>4 
1805 
1806 
1807 
1808 
1809 
1810 
181  1 
1812 
1813 
1814 
1815 
1816 
1817 


.  -      HR.  TIEFER:   All  right. 
BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

Q    Are  you  familiar  with  the  type  of  from  that  69  1  is? 

A    This  is  the  shipper's  export  declaration  and  I  don't 
deal  with  this  very  often,  so  I  am  n^tbjvery  familiar  with 
it. 

2    Hho  in  Southern  Air  Transport  fills  this  out,  if 
anybody? 

A    I  believe  this  is  filled  out  by  the  shipper. 

2    And  692?   It  is  similar  to  689  but  you  will  see  at 
the  bottom  that  the  date  is  five  days  off,  one  is  9-13,  the 
other  says,  9-18.   There  are  other  differences.   It  is  the 
same  type  perhaps.   I  don't  wish  to  put  words  in  your  mouth. 

A    I  don't  know  anything  about  this  form.   I  have  very 
little  comment  on  it.   I  don't  deal  with  them. 

HR.  TIEFER:   Let's  make  this  the  next  exhibit 
number,  they  are  689  through  692. 

I  The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  DPM-12  for 
identification: ] 

xxxxxxxxxx  INSERT  3-5  xxxxxx***/ 


DNJUJSm 


121 


HIR03U002 


UNCIASSIHED 


PAGE     79 


BY  MR.  TIEFER: 

2    Is  Ton  Hazlett  in  your  departmant? 

A    No. 

2    Ware  you  aware  in  tha  end  of  1985  when  Southern  Air 
Transport  people  were  looking  ior  a  C-123  to  purchase? 

A    I  didn't  know  we  were  looking  to  purchase  an 
airplane . 

2    Okay. 
What  I  an  referring  to  is  not  a  purchase  for  Southern  Air 
Transport  but  a  purchase  by  Southern  Air  Transport  for  the 
use  of  somebody  else? 

A    Oh,  X  was  vaguely  fanlliar  but  not  intimately.   I 
was  aware  o'f  tha  activity. 

2    I  will  show  you  1799  and  I  will  have  to  share  it 
with  you,  copies  have  run  out  at  this  point. 

A    Yes. 

2    Can  you  identify  it? 

A    It  is  an  out  of  date  Southern  Air  Transport 
operations  department  organizational  chart. 

S    Can  you  describe  briefly  what  various  people  on  the 
chart  do  and  if  you  wish  to  make  corrections  as  you  go  along 
to  bring  it  up  to  day,  by  all  means  do  so. 
~  A    Oo  you  want  to  start  with  myself? 

2    Yes. 

A    I  am  senior  vice  president,  operations,  and 


uNcussm 


122 


NAME: 
18143 
1814 14 
18MS 
18146 
1847 
18148 
18U9 
1850 
1851 
1852 
1853 
18514 
1855 
1856 
1857 
1858 
1859 
1860 
1861 
1862 
1863 
186U 
1865 
1866 
1867 


HIR034002 


UNCIASSIFIED 


PAGE    80 


basically  I  an  responsible  iot  technical  services  which  is 
maintenance,  flight  operations,  systems  operations,  for  the 
airline,  most  of  the  production. 

There  is  a  secretary  under  me.  that  is  fairly  obvious. 

2    What  is  her  name. 

A    Janet  Shadow. 

8    She  is  your  secretary? 

A    Yes  . 

2    Paul  Gillcrist — let's  back  up. 
How  long  has  she  been  with  the  company? 

A    Since  July  of  1985. 

2   Who  was  your  secretary  before  then? 

A    X  didn't  have  one..  I  shared,  we  pooled. 

2  Mere  there  several  secretaries  who  worked  for  many 
people  ? 

A  There  were  a  few  but  there  was  one  assigned  to  the 
operations  department  but  I  just  didn't  consider  her  to  be 
my  secretary. 

2    Was  there  one  secretary  who  was  familiar  with  what 
your  secretary  would  not  be  familiax  with?   That  is  sort  of 
what  I  am  asking? 

A    Ko.  I  handled  most  of  it  myself.   I  didn't  get  her 
involved  other  than  just  to  type  a  letter  here  or  there. 
And  I  don't  generate  a  lot  of  paper. 

2    Okay. 


IH^mHEB 


123 


HIR034002 


UNCUSSIHED 


PAGE    81 


Next  person  on  the  chart. 

A    Paul  Gillcrist,  vice  president,  flight  operations. 
He  is  the  chie-f,  the  chiei  pilots  report,  for  the  707  and 
the  Hercules,  report  to  him. 

He  is  in  charge  of  crew  scheduling,  the  crew  scheduling 
department  reports  to  him.   Basically  anything  to  do  with 
flight  crew  members  in  Southern  Air  are  Paul  Gillcrist's 
responsibility.   Any  of  those  matters. 

Q    How  long  has  he  been  with  the  company? 

A    He  has  been  with  us  since,  I  think  Hay  of  1985. 
The  next  person  is,  this  is  incorrect,  lists  Fred  Johnson, 
vice  president  of  technical  services.   He  left  the  company 
in  November  or  December,  I  ^uess,  it  was  early  December,  and 
the  current  vice  president  of  technical  services  is  Kenneth 
Wilson.   And  in  a  nut  shell  he  is  basically  responsible  for 
maintenance  of  the  aircraft,  purchasing,  stores,  quality 
control,  engineering,  and  other  maintenance  related 
activities . 

8    Do  you  know  where  Fred  Johnson  went? 

A    No. 

2    Do  you  know  why  he  left? 

A    It  was  a  mutual  parting  of  ways. 

2    Can  you  explain  that  further? 

A    I  was  unhappy  with  his  performance. 

2    You  say  it  was  mutual? 


mmm 


124 


NAME: 
1893 
1894 
1895 
1896 
1897 
1898 
1899 
1900 
1901 
1902 
1903 
190M 
1905 
1906 
1907 
1908 
1909 
1910 
1911 
1912 
1913 
191U 
1915 
1916 
1917 


HIR03(4002 


UNCLASSinED 


PAGE    82 


A    He  agxeed  that  I  was  unhappy. 

2    There  ate  tuo  other  boxes  on  the  chart. 

A    We  have  C.  Poirson,  known  as  ''Bob''  Poirson> 
director  of  systems  operations. 

Basically,  the  scheduling  o£  the  aircraft  is  Bob's 
responsibility >  the  dispatchers  uho  release  the  flights 
report  to  Bob;  all  daily  flight  activity  that  does  not  have 
to  do  with  maintenance  or  flight  craws  is  Bob  Poirson's 
responsibility.  Set  up  ground-handling  arrangements  in 
various  cities,  fuel,  landing  rights,  traffic  rights,  things 
of  that  nature  fall  under  Bob  Poirson. 

The  last  one  is  Frank  Zerbe,  director  of  maintenance 
administration.   He  is  ombudsman  in  the  maintenance 
department.   He  handles  manpower  requirements,  budgets, 
reviews  purchasing,  customer  bill-backs,  invoices  for 
contract  services,  and  things  of  that  nature,  and  acts  to  a 
degree  as  a  divisional  controller. 

Q    How  long  has  Bob  Poirson  been  with  the  company? 

A    Since  August  of  198>(. 

Q    And  how  long  has  Frank  Zerbe  been  with  the  company? 

A    Fall  of  1985. 

fi    Do  you  have  knowledge  of  a  trip  that  Frank  Zerbe 
mad»  to  purchase  Caribou  aircraft  in  Canada? 

A    Vague  knowledge.   When  he  made  that  trip  he  was  not 
in  that  box.   He  was  manager  of  or  director  of — I  don't  know 


UNCUSSIFe 


125 


UNCUSSIFIED 


NAHE:  HIR03M002      ^--w^l^^^gj  Ikl/      PAGE    83 

his  exact  titla>  but  it  was  a  Buclington  contract  based  in 
Fort  Wayna>  and  Langton  dealt  with  hin  directly  on  these 
trips.   I  had  no  involvement. 

MR.  TIEFER:   Let's  mark  this  as  the  next  exhibit. 
[The  following  docunent  was  marked  as  Exhibit  EPn-13  for 
identification :  ] 

jKxncxxiicxxxx    COHHITTEE    INSERT    3-6    «*«*x***x/ 


UNCussra 


126 


MAKE: 

1926 
1927 
1928 
1929 
1930 
1931 
1932 
1933 
1934 
1935 
1936 
1937 
1938 
1939 
1940 
19U1 
19H2 
1943 
19i4t4 
1945 
1946 
1947 
1948 
1949 
1950 


HIR034002 


UNCUssm 


PAGE  84 


HR.  TIEFER:   I  think  that  will  be  a  convenient 
stopping  point  iot  me. 

The  way  in  which  the  questioning  tends  to  proceed  is,  I 
stop  and  George  Van  Cleve>  who  is  our  Republican  colleague, 
will  take  over. 

THE  WITNESS:   Oh,  good,  we  got  a  Republican  in  the 
room. 

flR.  TIEFER:   Do  you  want  to  go  off  the  record  or 
pick  right  up? 

HR.  VAM  CLEVE:   I  think  I  can  pick  right  up. 

BY  HR.  VAM  CLEVE: 
2    As  Hr .  Tiefer  indicates,  I  am  George  Van  Cleve, 
Deputy  Republican  Counrel  ior  the  House  Committee.   I  have 
only  a  couple  of  brief  questioi...  ''nd  I  have  appreciated  your 
willingness  to  answer  questions. 

I  have  never  been  involved  in  the  airline  business  and  so 
some  of  the  questions  that  I  am  about  to  ask  you  may  seem  as 
though  they  are  not  vary  well  informed,  and  that  is  fine, 
because  I  don't  know  anything  about  this. 

You  have  testified  and  we  have,  of  course,  have  previous 
testimony  from  other  officials  of  your  company,  that  you  all 
perform  trips  carrying  cargo  from  the  United  States  to 
various  points  in  the  Hlddle  East  and,  similarly,  that  your 
company  assisted  in  transportation  for  material  to  Central 
America. 


UNCIASSIRED 


127 


NAME: 
1951 
1952 
1953 
19514 
1955 
1956 
1957 
1958 
1959 
1960 
1961 
1962 
1963 
19614 
1965 
1966 
1967 
1968 
1969 
1970 
1971 
1972 
1973 
19714 
1975 


MUSSM 


HIR0314002WI  llfLflllallfl    lff~ll  PAGE  85 

Is  thete  any  particular  reason  why  if  I  had  that  kind  of 
cargo  to  carry.  I  would  come  to  your  company,  do  you  offer  a 
specialized  service  that  is  not  generally  available? 

A    The  only  service  that  we  offer  that--let  me  answer  it 
this  way.   The  707  trips  there  are  a  number  of  people  that 
offer  comparable  aircraft,  either  707s  or  DC-8s,  so  what  a 
prudent  person  would  do  would  be  to  shop  the  market  although 
we  have  to  give  consideration  to  the  reputation  of  the 
operator,  through  reliability  and  integrity  and  things  of 
that  nature . 

So  price  can't  always  be  the  driving  factor.   I  think  we 
enjoy  a  good  reputation.   We  used  to.   The  Hercules  aircraft 
is  a  different  story.   That  airplane — 

2    If  I  could  stop  you  on  the  707  trips — if  if  I 
understand  your  testimony  correctly,  there  are  a  number  of 
generally  reputable  companies  that  fly  similar  equipment 
that  could  have  performed  those  trips? 

A    Yes. 

8    And  probably  were  generally  competitive  on  price 
since  they  are  in  the  same  business? 

A    I  would  have  to  assume  they  would  be. 

fi  So.  in  short,  it  will  be  your  view  that  the  decision 
to  'come  to  Southern  Air  as  opposed  to  some  other  carrier  was 
not  simply  a  business  decision? 

A    Oh,  that  was  a  decision  made  by  some  one  else.   I 


UNCLASSIFIED 


128 


NAME: 
1976 
1977 
1978 
1979 
1980 
1981 
1982 
1983 
1984 
1985 
1986 
1987 
1988 
1989 
1990 
1991 
1992 
1993 
199M 
1995 
1996 
1997 
1998 
1999 
2000 


HIR03U002 


UNCLASSIRED 


PAGE    86 


can't  speculate  on  that. 

2    I  understand;  but  it  is  your  testimony  that  there 
are  people  in  the  business  who  could  just  as  uell  have  done 
the  job? 

A    Yes. 

MR.  KIRSTEIH:   But  that  is  a  long  way  iron  him 
saying  what  their  reason  for  hiring  SAT  is.   That  is  your-- 
MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   I  understand. 
BY  HR.  VAH  CLEVE: 

Q    I  don't  uant  to  characterize  your  testimony,  but  I 
want  the  record  to  be  clear  that  clearly  from  the  business 
point  of  view,  i£  I  were  looking  for  a  carrier,  I  uould  not 
have  any  difficulty  finding  a  carrier  who  could  do  that 
work? 

A    That  is  correct. 

e    Okay. 
And  you  were  saying  on  the  100-- 

A    The  100  is  a  different  category  altogether.   It  is  a 
unique  airplane  capable  of  carrying  outside  cargo,  loads 
through  the  rearend  so  you  can  get  large  pieces  in  there 
that  you  can't  get  through  the  door  of  a  707,  it  is  a  side- 
loading  door. 

And  there  are  very  feu  commercial  operators  of  the 
aircraft  in  the  United  States.   In  fact,  now  that  we  have 
took  over  Transamerican' s  100  fleet  the  only  U.S.  operator 


UNCUSSIFIED 


129 


NAKI> 

2001 
2002 
2003 
200M 
2005 
2006 
2007 
2008 
2009 
2010 
201  1 
2012 
2013 
20114 
2015 
2016 
2017 
2018 
2019 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 
20214 
2025 


HIR03U002 


UNCIASSIFIED 


PA6K    87 


oi. Hatculas  airciait  is  Mark  All  In  Alaska  and  thay  hava 
thzaa. 

Thaia  is  an  opatator  in  Canada  that  has  ona  and  thosa  ara 
tha  only--and  thay  ara  vaty  snail.   So,  thosa  ara  tha  only 
operators  in  North  Anarica.   So,  thara  is  no  conpatition  to 
spaak  of. 

fi    And  tha  prina  consldazation  in  tha  usa  oi  that 
aquipmant  again  just  so  I  hava  it  claar? 

A    Outslda  iraight.   Tha  ability  to  carry  outsida 
freight. 

As  a  sanpla,  this  weekend  we  ilew  a  trip  for  Pratt  Whitney 
iron  Hartford  to  Seattle  and  ue  took  two  jet  engines.   Ko 
other  airplane  in  the  U.S., is  capable  of  carrying  them  other 
than  a  Hero,  or  a  TU?,  but  aconoaics  precluded  chartering  a 
7<47  for  two  engines. 

fi    So  that  in  that  area  of  your  business  a  lot  of  tha 
business  is  dedicated  by  the  fact  that  you  receive  a 
specialized  segment  of  the  market? 

A    Yes.  with  limited  competition. 

2    Earlier  youz  counsel  produced  for  us  a  summary  of 
flights,  these  are  document  numbers  182  1  and  1822,  and  I 
will  show  it  to  you. 

I  believe  it  is  an  exhibit  from  another  deposition.  AS 
you  can  see  it  lists  five  flights  between  ^^^^^Kand  points, 
I  guess,  in  Central  America,  between  January  1985  and  April 


iiNowssm 


130 


KANE: 

2026 
2027 
2028 
2029 
2030 
2031 
2032 
2033 
203U 
2035 
2036 
2037 
2038 
2039 
201(0 
20141 
20M2 
20(43 
20UU 
20145 
20146 
2047 
20148 
20149 
2050 


HIR0314002 


UNCussm 


PAGE         88 


19a6.    You  testified  in  considerable  detail  about  the  first 
two  of  these  flights? 

A    Yes. 

2    And  what  I  wanted  to  ask  uas  simply   if  you  knew 
whether  the  arrangements  for  the  three  other  flights 
involved  similar  cargos  and  were  made  by  the  same  person  or 
persons? 

A    I  didn't  get  involved  in  as  great  a  detail  from  a 
nuts  and  bolts  standpoint. 

2    Let  me  give  you  a  minute,  if  you  want  to  break  it 
up,  or  look  at  it? 

A    No,  I  don't  need  to.   From  a  nuts  and  bolts 

standpoint,'  I  did  not  get  as  involved  in  the  flights  that 

were  subsequent  to  the  Arrow  Air.   The  reason  is,  as  X 

stated  earlier,  that  we  had  limited,  we  had  a  limited  number 

of  people  within  the  company  that  were  aware  of  those  two 

operations. 

It. 
Obviously,  because  we  were  performing  the  serve  ourselves, 

more  people  within  oux  organization  would  have  to  Know  not 

only  crew  members  but  dispatchers  and  everybody  else.   They 

saw  the  airplane  routed  on  the  board,  they  knew  where  it  was 

going . 

So  when  it  got  down  to  the  nuts  and  bolts  on  these  I 

didn't  have  as  much  detail.   X  did  get  involved  in  some  of 

the  planning  earlier  on  not  on  pricing  but  on  aircraft 


mm\m 


131 


NAME: 
2051 
2052 
2053 
20514 
2055 
2056 
20S7 
2058 
2059 
2060 
2061 
2062 
2063 
206M 
2065 
2066 
2067 


UNCUSSIFIED 


HIR03>4002  IIIVItB    Hal.linril  PAGE  89 

availability,    how    would    that    fit    into    our    windows    of 
availabilty ? 

And  that   was  about  the  extent  of  it.   Nothing  too  exotic. 
Q    So  you  don't  know  what  type  of  cargo  was  carried  on 
those  flights  or  have  a  general  idea? 

A    Oh,  one  would  have  to  assume  that  it  is  the  sane 
routing  fron  the  same  people  that  it  was  the  same  cargo. 

2    You  don't  have  any  information  to  suggest  otherwise? 
A    No. 

HR.  VAH  CLEVE:   That  is  really  all  I  have. 
Thank  you.   I  appreciate  your  testimony. 
THE  UITHESS:   Surely. 

HR.'  TIEFER:   There  may  be  a  need  to  depose  you  on 
other  topics  than  the  ones  we  covered  today,  I  think  that 
completes  the  lines  of  questioning  for  today. 
THE  WITNESS:   Okay. 
[Uhereupon,  at  3:30  p.m.,  the  deposition  was  adjourned.! 


ifNcussm 


132 


UNCUSSIFIED 


STATE  OF 
COUNTY  OF 


CERTIFICATE  OF  NOTARY  PUBLIC 


/J  ^.~^. 


(  To-Wit: 


I,  the  undersigned,  a  Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 

County  and  State  aforesaid,  do  hereby  certify  that  the 

witness,   ^t//^  ^JlLLi/^S      /-fULUAAJ 

(Name  of  Witness)       / 

^ (Address)  (Cj 


f^Lo/C/  >Yi 


J>3^ 


(City) 
whose  sworn 


(State)  (Zip) 

testimony  appears  in  the  transcript  of  proceedings  attached 
hereto,  was  first  duly  sworn  by  me  and  placed  under  oath  on 


this 


/^  day  of   /r^^^,. 


^ 


,  1987,  and 


has  on  this  same  date  acknowledge  the  same  before  me  in  the 
State  and  County  aforesaid. 

Given  under  my  hand  and  seal  in  the  City  of 
/77.<rv«i." '  and  State  of  ^ 


on  this  j^^ 


day  of 


f      <r  itr^itniTi 


'T 


1987. 


My  commission  expires: 


^ 


^^  yy     .^»7^~^^ 


(Notary  P«fblic  -  signature) 
(Name  printed) 
(Address  printed) 


(City,  State,  and  Zip  Code) 


'^mxm 


133 


UNCUSSIfl 


?s 


134 


OO 


CO 


135 


l.f,  '^3V  J0//9 


iinmim 


I 


-  /fpii^s  - 


^7ff;r 


>^/*. 


/Jl^Wy^SSJJ^r) 


Bs^oc 


L 


/.?az. 


</^.*y((>V 


ST5- 


PH  Declassified/Released  on^X^Jte^-^  S  8 
under  provisions  of  E  0   12356 
by  K  Johnson,  National  Security  Council 


"i^^^miim 


'W: 


Sflrr    000787 


136 


ONCLASSIFIED 


C»^..)g^       73e«^,/r    A^jter     ^*iil"^j^^^^rr      *  ^ 

I*!.*       >>oJ'i"  L..>,,        7<-*«        p^i  ^*<*-    ^«'-'— «-  fUc.-*. - 

(  Deci3ssitiea/Released  on  ^^-^^-^8%    ■■■II     I     ll^VII-ILlB  '-''-'    ■ 


UNCLASSIFIED 


-'n  iwn  National  Security  Council  W  •  ■  Wfc*  •%/**■■    •  "•  v—TH  I 


137 


p^ 


H1 


UNCLASSIFIED 


Q 


All  p<rioDa«l  laTolTtd  «rrl««d  tn  dpha  on  Prldar  •**ola(.  I  ate 
Seoct  and  totroduetd  hla  to  tha  loadaaatar,  as  that  thara  would 
ba  aoaa  confaranca  on  tha  load.  Tha  follovlag  aornlng  both  ;2J 
and  323  arrlvad  at  alpha  on  achadula.  Tha  crava  latt  tha  hotal 
ao  %%  to  allow  approzlsa talf  1.5  houra  of  praparatloa  prior  to 
dapartura.  Dpon  raachlng  lata  Opa,  I  waa  laforaad  that  Nr.  Thoap- 
aoo  (Cuatoat)  would  not  ba  In  until  Tuaaday,  and  that  I  ahould 
laava  tha  paparvork  with  thaa.  I  had  aoaa  alaglTlnfa  about  thla 
arralgnaant,  but  eoapllad  laavlng  tha  S.E.D.'a  In  an  'ayaa  only" 
anralopa  and  tha  Canaral  Oac'a  attachad.  Dpon  raachlog  planaalda. 
tha  fual  paopla  advlaad  that  If  wa  wlabad  to  pay  for  tha  fual  via 
a  Co.  chack  wa  would  hava  to  pay  hla  auparvlaor.  It  took  iO 
aloutaa  for  thla  gaotlaaan  to  gat  to  tha  aircraft  ae  that  wa 
could  bagin  fuallng.  Whlla  thla  did  not  cauaa  any  dalay.  It 
would  hava  If  avarythlog  alaa  waa  sa  achadula.  Uhlla  all  thla 
waa  taking  placa,  I  waa  advlaad  that  not  only  waa  tha  load  not  on 
the  flald,  but  that  It  waa  not  yat  built  up  bacauaa  of  aoac 
confualon  regarding  ownarahlp  of  tha  pallata  (nobody  wanta  USAF 
property  la  DELTA).  Whan  I  aakad  how  long  thla  would  dalay  ua ,  I 
waa  Inforaad  "three  houra."  They  alao  aald  that  they  were  led  to 
believe  that  wa  would  not  arrive  until  1700.  Hhaa  I  Inforaad  hla 
that  by  ay  calculatlona  It  waa  1730,  ha  aakad  ■•,  "What  kind  of  a 
clock  are  you  working  off  of?" 

Uhlle  all  thla  waa  taking  placa,  ay  qualaa  about  the  General 
Dcc'a  got  the  beat  of  ae  and  I  called  Dick.  Be  aakad  Scott  If  ha 
had  apoken  with  Thoapaon'a  boaa  (alao  briefed)  and  Scott  advlaad 
he  had  been  unable  to  reach  hla.  We  than  triad  to  get  in  touch 
with  Mr.  Thoapion,  but  he  waa  lunching.  Whan  ha  finally  returned 
our  call  (iO  alnutea  later),  he  aald  "Don't  worry,  I'll  have  the 
Bate  Opj  people  algn  the  Deca  for  you."  Thirty  alnutea  later,  I 
waa  handed  one  Gen  Dec  on  which  waa  written  PERMIT  TO  ftOCEED 
OK'D  BY  THOMPSON  OP  U.S.  CUSTOMS  KELLT  API.  Thla  waa  totally 
unacceptable  In  aa  aueh  aa  the  laat  thing  we  wanted  waa  a  parait 
CO  proceed  (laplylng  that  wa  would  need  euatoaa  at  the  next  atop). 
I  called  our  euatoaa  friend  back  and  advlaad  hla  of  our  concern 
end  he  aald  "Seaebody  will  be  there  In  30  alnutea).  Thirty  alnutea 
later,  a  gentleaan  arrived  and  algnad  and  ataaped  our  Dac'e.  To 
thcae,  we  attachad  our  "white"  aanlfaat  for  praaentatlon  to 
Canadian  euatoaa. 

Once  we  were  loaded  It  took  another  30  alnutea  before  we  could 
taxi  due  to  a  nuabar  of  avoidable  clrcuaatancaa :  1)  All  of  the 
freight  for  tha  aacond  aircraft  had  been  placed  directly  behind 
our  aircraft,  2)  the  CPU  ran  out  of  gaa,  3)  tha  alratart  had  a 
dead  battery,  and  A)  no  ground  personnel  to  aarahal  ua.  Once  we 
departed,  the  flight  to  YQX  waa  uneventful  until  wa  arrived.  Aa 
a  raault  of  our  4-hour  dalay  at  alpha,  tha  weather  at  TQX  had 
deteriorated  to  a  very  lew  atata.  Had  wa  departed  on  achadula, 
our  arrlvel  weather  would  have  bean  ao  aaow  and  30  allaa  vlalbl- 
Uty.  Aa  It  waa.  It  waa  lota  of  anew  and  1/2  alia  vlalblllty. 
More  laportantly,  we  were  unable  to  utlllta  thapp|(ir|rvn««T;  fMch 
created  a  takeoff  I  would  Juat  aa  aoon  not  rap^%y|<  'ji  ! ',  |  |  |; 


i^P  Deciassifieo/Released  on    ^  ^Jav\-6 8 
under  provisions  oi  E  0  12356 
Dy  K  Jodnson.  National  Secunty  Council 


UNCUSSIHED 


6RrO0081i5 


sra3 


138 


UNtlASSra 


other  Chan  th«  takeoff,  tti*  trip  to  Ir4*e  wta  ootTtntful.  Upon 
•  rrlT«l,  «•  »*r<  told  to  felIo»  •  *«hlcl«  to  a  raaota  araa  and 
park  oazt  to  tha  ■taalon  aircraft.  Aftar  ahuttlag  4e«p  tha 
anglnaa,  tha  loeala  vary  quickly  oftleadad  tha  aircraft  (IS 
■lautaa)  and  wa  taxlad  tha  aircraft  to  tha  clTlllaa  alda  of  tha 
flald.  Onca  tha  aircraft  «aa  parkad  I  aakad  tha  grenad  haodlar 
for  a  rlda  back  to  tha  aacura  araa  but  vaa  cold  that  would  ba 
lapoaalbla.  I  had  tha  latdowo  charta  for  C  aad  D,  ae  I  coataecad 
Dick  and  aakad  whara  tha  craw  vaa.  Ba  Inferaad  aa  that  thay  vara 
alraady  anrouta  to  tha  aircraft.  I  thao  contacted  Ilchard  at  the 
hotel  aod  advlaad  hla  that  tha  other  SAT  aircraft  (S23)  would 
have  the  aaae  plataa  available. 


TXIP  #1  TO  DELTA  TO  IE  PIOVIDED  IT  LBR  TOOTLE 


TtIP  #2,  SRaVO  TO  CHARLIE 

Wa  returned  to  Hlaal  on  Saturday  night.  On  Sunday  night.  Dick 
called  and  advlaad  ae  that  nagotlatlona  had  been  auccaaaful,  and 
aakad  when  vaa  the  earllaat  we  could  fly  a  aacond  trip.  I 
advlaad  hla  that  If  wa  departed  Hlaal  Monday  night  we  would 
arrive  In  BrAvo  on  Tueaday  evening.  That  would  put  ua  Into 
poaltlon  to  operate  Wadneaday  night;  (tha  ahort  notice  could  not 
be  helped  but  It  forced  ua  Into  having  to  purchaaa  extreaely 
expensive  tickets).  Upon  arrival  In  IrAvo,  wa  were  aet  by  Aalraa 
and  escorted  through  custoas.  Aalraa  was  under  the  lapresslon 
that  we  were  to  operate  that  Tueaday  evening.  I  advlaad  hla  that 
T  thought  that  was  a  alscoaaunlcat Ion  and  that  I  would  check  and 
advlaa.  (An  obvloua  concern  co  ae  waa  arriving  unwalcoae  In  C). 
After  epeaklng  with  Richard,  we  were  told  that  tha  trip  would  not 
go  eeoner  than  Wednesday  night.  I  advised  Aalraa  of  this  and  set 
up  a  aaetlng  the  following  aernlng  to  work  out  the  eea  plan  and 
dlacuaa  the  condition  of  the  aircraft.  The  coa  plan  was  laid  out 
In  auch  the  saae  aanner  aa  the  first  trip.  As  to  tha  condition 
of  the  slrcrafc  we  were  Inforaed  that  tha  Iteae  we  had  written  up 
on  the  first  trip  were  tsken  care  of  with  exception  of  the  Oaegs 
which  apparently  had  checked  out  O.K.   I  then  aal^a^  if  -ttiay  .had 


UNCLASSIFIED 


S«r   000819 


139 


««sm 


chanfcd  th*  till  I  of  th*  aircraft  to  VI-lOX  Inataad  of  cha  IIBOX 
that  had  bean  palatad  lo  arror.  (Our  ratlooal  for  cha  foraar  waa 
chat  It  »aa  froa  larauda,  and  loaocuoua  Call  #  rachar  Chan  cha 
lattar  which  aar  ba  aora  Inflaaatery ) .  Aalraa  aald  chac  It  had 
aot  baan  ehangad  but  what  doaa  Ic  aactar  baeauaa  'for  aa ,  It  la 
BO  problaa.**  Whan  I  loforaad  hla  that  thay  vara  ROt  Cha  paopla 
»a  vara  vorrlad  abouc,  ha  laughad  and  ptoapcly  ehaagad  cha 
aubjacc.  (Ua  dlacovarad  on  our  racuro  Co  Hlaal  ChaC  •  >  rachar 
Chan  a  V  rapraaanta  Chlnal)  That  a«anlaf  ac  approzlaacaly  ItOO  LCL 
an  aaaoclata  of  ttcharda  eallod  and  advlaad  ua  that  wa  vara  on 
for  that  ntfht  and  that  would  Ilka  ua  Co  arrlva  la  C  at  approxl- 
aataly  0700  LCL.  I  told  hla  that  va  veuld  dapart  at  2300  LCL. 
Ooca  Alrboroa,  wa  diacovarad  rachar  quickly  ctaac  Cha  Oaagaa  did 
not  work  proparly.  Dua  to  tha  lack  of  VOI'a  aaroota  va  otlllcad 
cha  radar  to  fellow  tha  ceaat.  (Tha  eencara  waa  chac  vlch  radar, 
wa  wara  announcing  our  praaanca  to  aajbedy  who  alght  ba  llatanlng). 
Va  aada  all  our  Opa'  noraal  calla  aarouta  but  tha  HF  fraquanelaa 
wara  ao  cluttarad  with  traffic  that  we  could  not  hear  cha  raapoaaaa 
for  cha  aoat  part.  About  30  alautaa  out  of  C  we  called  Approach 
Concrol.  They  aaeaed  alldly  aurprlaad  aad  aaked  ue  Co  coetacc 
Delta  Approach  and  aaked  for  a  deaceat.  They  aald  negative, 
continue  toward  C.  Aa  It  waa  clear,  ve  began  our  deacant  aayway. 
After  arrlvel  et  C,  we  were  aet  by  e  auaber  of  offlcera  all 
weacera-cralaed  and  20  or  ao  anllaced  aea  who,  for  ch«  aoac  perc, 
looked  like  ragaaufflaa.  In.addltloa  to  the  Col.  (r-4  tralaed  In' 
the  U.S.)  there  waa  a  gentleaan  beat  deacrlbed  aa  aoae  aort  of 
political  officer  who  aaeaed  to  be  e  peer  of  Che  Col.  (he  wore 
civilian  clochee).  We  had  landed  juat  ac  0700  LCL  aa  Inatructed 
but  the  Col.  adviaed  ua  that  they  had  Juat  heerd  froa  the  headehcd 
that  we  wara  coatng  and  that  they  were  In  the  proceaa  of  acraabllng 
r-i't  whan  they  received  the  call.  I  told  thoa  that  I  believed 
that  waa  a  coaaunlca t looa  problaa  on  Chair  aad  in  aa  auch  aa  we 
had  known  the  night  before.  la  aay  caae,  while  we  were  there,  ue 
were  cordially  treated  and  it  took  thea  approxlaately  3  houra  to 
offload  ua  with  •  U.S.  gov.  liauad  K  loader  chac  waa  on  Ita  laat 
lege. 


SKT 000820 


® 


UNCLASSinED 


140 


UNCLASSIFIED  ^ 

Sea*  ebatrvatlona  vhll*  oa  tb*  trouad  at  C.  km   with  the  first 
trip  tb*  leeala  w*r*  *str*aaly  iat*r*at*d  ia  oar  peiat  of  oricia  aad 
what  aatieaality  w*  w*r*.Tb*v  war*  iaferaad  tbat  oar  peiat  of  eriaia  waa 
*aoa*wb*r*  ia  luropa'.Aa  to  our  aatieaalltr  tit  ia  bard  to  balioT*  tbat 
aaybedy  weald  aot  bav*  kaowe  tbat  w*  war*  Aa*rieaaa.Ia  any  eaaa  tbay 
eoatiaa*d  to  aak.t  told  tb*  'political*  officer  tbat  I  waa  Aaatriaa.aad 
l*aa  tbaa  10  ain'a  lat*r  a  aan  eaa*  over  and  atartad  spaakiaf  very  peer 
Ceraaa  to  ae.In  aa  aucb  as  I  apeak  feed  Ceraaa  I'a  aare  tber  were 
eeafaaed. About  20  aia'a  after  we  arrived  2  f-t'a  took  off. The  aircraft 
bad  BO  azteraal  erdioance.aad  ealir  rolled  aboat  2000  ft  before  tbejr  were 
airborne.  Tbey  were  tone  aprex.  1  br.  aad  upon  return  did  a  nuaber  of 
appreaebes  before  ahutttna  down.Tba  aircraft  appeared  to  be  in  tood 
abap*.  at  l*ast  viaualy.Tba  (round  e^uipaeat  oa  tbe  otber  band  were  in 
varyiDd  atatea  of  diarepair .Tbe  ealiated  aen  aad  officera  aaeaed  to  work 
well  tod*tb*r .Botb  croupe  pitcbad  in  *qually,aad  w*r*  v*ry  *ntbuaiaatie. 


CIAILII  TO 


1Stif9 


Prior  to  atartind  antlaea  we  inferaed  tbe  Col.  tbat  it  wac  very 
iaportaot  tbat  we  be  civen  only  a  cleranee  to  takeoff  froa  tbe  tower. le 
a**a*d  to  uadoratand  tbat  we  wanted  aiaiaal  radio  traffic, aad  said  be 
would  take  ear*  of  tbat  preblea  for  us. After  cleaiac  tbe  carte  door  tbe 
locale  aaked  if  we  would  be  wlllind  to  wait  aaotber  2  bra.inorder  tbat 
tbey  aight  dive  ua  a  tift  of  caviar. I  tbanked  tbea  aad  aaid  tbat  we  were 
expected  to  return  at  a  certain  tiae  aad  tbat  it  would  be  better  if  we 
did  not  wait. Tbey  seeaed  disappointed  but  said  tbey  understood. Instead 
they  prcaented  ua  with  lOlba  of  piatacbioa.Ua  atarted  ea«inee  and  called 
for  a  taxi  claaraac*. Tb*  tow*r  th*n  proc**d*d  to  bav*  10  aia'a  of 
ceav*raation  with  ua  cencornind  wber*  w*  w*r*  aoind  what  airwaya  w* 
wantad  what  callaicn  we  were  uaina  atc.Oue  to  tbe  shear  fruatrstion  of 
daallnd  witb  tbia  paraen  we  aareed  to  aaytbina  tbey  wanted  Juat  to  aet 
airborne  and  atop  all  this  traffic. Once  airborne  tbe  tower  bad  us 
contact  departure  eoatrol . Departure  wanted  aa  to  contact  Delta  center. 
Tbie  we  ianered.aa  we  ianored  their  repeated  atteapts  to  band  as  off  to 
Bahrain  or  Huacat ! I ! Aprox.2  bra.  into  tbe  fliabt.abeaa  tbe  border  of 
Oaan  and  Teaan  we  obaarved  tbe  contrail  of  aa  aircraft  at  about  4SO0O(t 
trav*lina  aucb  faater  than  we  were(we  were  at  .(4  aaeb)  oa  a  beadina  to 
int*rc*pt  ua.Aady  lill  in  1(  hoars  of  flyiaa  addad  10  y*ars  to  bis  lif* 
by  pickiaa  th*  worst  poaalbl*  aoaoat  toloek  out  of  tbe  paaaenaer  window 
to  aiahtaee.At  that  aoaent  a  deaaert  caaJtlqaed  Jaauar  froa  tbe  Oaan 
Airferee  arrived  on  our  riaht  wina.Ubat  be  eaw  waa  a  white  707  rea  ( 
BIBOX  at  an  alt  of  34400ft  juat  outaide  their  FIB. Tbia  ao  doubt  arrouaad 
tb*ir  curioaity,  as  b*  r*aain*d  with  us  for  aprox.  7  ain's.At  on*  point 
I  eaa*  up  on  121. S  and  aakad  bia  as*  Aaaricaa*  aa  t  could  if  w*  eeuld 
h*lp  bia?  I*  r*apended  that  we  need  to  be  careful  of  tbe  artillery  in 
tbe  area. (we  are  not  aura  what  that  aeant)In  any  ease  left  tbe  area 
after  a  tiae  witb  no  further  coaaent . (we  traasaitted  oar  iatercepted 
will  advise  aessaae  via  IF. bat  it  was  asver  received  ia  DTbe  reaaindar 
of  the  trip  was  aoainal . 

Upon  return  to  B  we  were  aiven  a  nuaber  to  eeatact  liehard  in 
Geneva. The  nuaber  we  were  aiven  was  short  one  diait  so  w*  were  unabl*  to 
contact  hia. 

BICORUDATIORS  ^rt^  >»...»«.»^ 

l.B*tt*r  coordination  at  A  . 


UNCIASSIFIED 


I 


141 


UNCLASSIFIED  & 

2. An  alt  airport  (or  TOI 

J.An  und.rotandln*  wltb  th«  folk,  at  C  eone.roln«  ce.  proc.dur.. 

Ana  •ircfAit  sTA. 
4. Stat*  th*  ontlro  eporatlon  out  at    Dl*«o  Carela.(thla  will  allow 

«•  to  (lir  tbo  ootlra  alaaioo  and  eroaa  only  ana  ril. 


[)j;\ ... 

SAf  000822 


iiNtussro 


142 


«HWS«B 


SECtCCT  OATH 


bcv* 


[Bti  ipcciflc 


icBaMl«tf(*  :ie«c«rDln(  *  itailtlv*  cltidfitd  opiritloa  or  ■lailoa 
partalBlni  to  U.S.  Cevataaaac  Spaclal  Actlvlclat.   I  raallia 
chat  thl(  eparaclaa  or  alailaa  It  laeurlty  eltailfltd  wlchla 
tha  taptee*|«  Lawa  e(  eha  Ualcad  Scataa  aad  tha  Raclaaal  $aeu> 
rlty  lagulatlant.   I  htva  baan  advliad  that  tha  lafaraaclaa  I 
hava  ar  will  lala  froa  aa  autherliad  rapraaaacaclva  o(  tha  U.  S. 
Ca*araaaae  which  partala*  ca  thlt  aparatloa  er  alitloa  la  alao 
elaaalflad  uadar  tha  Eaploaafa  Lawa  of  tha  Oaitad  Stataa  aad 
tha  Vatleaal  Saeurlty  tafulatloaa  and  thla  lafocaatloa  la  not 
to  ba  ravaalad  ta  any  unauthorliad  partoat,  fltat,  aftnelaa 
er  ert'aliaclaaa. 

I  aa  ebllgatad  to  protaet  froa  eeaproalaa  whatavar  laferaaclea 
I  BOW  hawa.   Tha  prlaary  aubjacta  to  ba  pretaetad  ara: 

a.  Tha  fact  that  thla  prograa  wat  Inltlatad  or  coaplatad. 

b.  Tha  datall  of  any  coacapt  which  waa  eoaaldarad  or 
davalopad . 

e.   Lltta  of  paraoaaal,  facllltlaa,  ethar  apaclal  atatta 
iBvolvtd  la  thaaa  projactt. 

"I  do  aelaaaly  twaar  er  afflra  that  I  will  aet  dlvulia  to  aayona 
tha  aatura,  (aaaral  er  apaclfle,.e(  tha  alaalaa,  aaal(aaaat, 
leeatleo,  dutlaa,  er  aay  laforaatlea  davalopad  ceac«raln|  chta 
escape  aa  apaelfieally  autherliad  by  the  Matleaal  Ceaanad 
Authority  or  daalgaatad  rapraaaatatlva  ef  tha  apaelflc  ajaacy 
iBwolvad.   I  fjirthar  uBdarttaad  that  thla  each  la  lataadad  to 
apply  for  aa  tadeflalta  period  ef  tlae.* 


twera  aad  aubaerlbad  before  ae 
chta    /f       day  ef  A^jQU       . 


7^,:^  /K<^Pl 


(Slgaatura) 


(Wltn/tO^ 

CONFIOENIIAL 


realtlea  ;^    CLu^^JJ/t^i^^ ^ 

001762       ^^rroo/'>4Z_ 


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hav«    gtlnad    «p«clflc 


knowladf*  ceiic*raln|  •  (•naltlvt  elaidfltd  op«r*tlaa  or  ■litloo 
p«rt«lnla|  ce  U.S.  CovcroBaac  Sptclal  Actlvlcltt.   I  r««llt* 
that  thla  eparatlon  or  alaalen  la  aaeurlty  elaaalflad  wtchln 
tha  Eaplonaga  Lava  of  tha  Unltad  Stataa  and  tha  Matlenal  Sacu- 
rlt7  Kafulaclona.   I  hava  baao  advlaad  chat  tha  iaforaatleo  I 
hava  or  will  (ata  froa  as  authorltad  rapraaancaclva  a(  tha  U.  S. 
CovaTDBant  which  partalaa  to  thla  oparacloa  or  alaaloa  la  alao 
elaaalflad  uodar  tha  Eaploaafa  Lawa  of  tha  Unltad  Stataa  and 
tha  Natleaal  Sacuclty  lagulatloaa  aed  thla  laforaatloo  la  not 
to  ba  ravaalad  to  any  unauchorliad  paraona,  flraa,  aianclaa 
or  ergaalaacloaa. 

I  aa  oblltacad  to  pretaet  froa  eoaproalaa  whatavar  loforaatloo 
I  now  hava.   Tha  prlaary  aubjacta  to  ba  protactad  ara: 

a.  Tha  fact  that  thla  prograa  waa  Inltlatad  or  coaplacad. 

b.  Tha  datall  of  any  coacapt  which  waa  coaaldarad  or 
davalopad . 

c.  Llaca  of  paraoaaal,  facllltlaa,  othar  apaelal  aaacca 
lavelvad  In  thaaa  prejaeta. 

"I  do  aelaaaljr  awaar  or  afflra  that  I  will  aot  dlvulga  to  anyona 
tha  aacura,  gaearal  or  apaclflc,.of  tha  alaaloa,  aaal|oaaat, 
locacloa,  duClaa,  or  aay  laforaatlea  davalopad  coacatalag  thaa 
ascapc  aa  apaelfteally  authorliad  by  tha  Ratleaal  Ceaaaad 
Authority  or  daalgnatad  rapraaaatatlva  of  cha  apaclflc  agaacy 
lavelvad.   I  fjirthar  uadaracaad  that  thla  oath  la  lataadad  to 
apply  (ot  aa  ladaflalta  parled  of  tlaa." 


twora  aad  aubaerlbad  bafora  aa 


thla        /^         day   of    /^^ 


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(Slgaati/ra) 


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under  provisions  o(  E  0  12356 
By  K  Jorinson.  Nalional  Security  Council 


OPBJUTIONS 

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OF   THIS   SET-UP  BO    INTO   TRIP   FOLDER  ALONG  WITH  FLIGHT 

PLANS   AND   WEATH 

CC/A1.L   0N..0OD  ■■^HH>ONE   BY   CHARTERER,!  

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S,9-r  ooi'^'^'^ 


.     2  ^4«?-&8 

Partally  Oeclassit.ed/Rel^asea  on— ^ -— - 

unoer  provisions  ot  E  0  12356  ''B 

by  r  Jonnson,  National  SecunW  Council  ■mi 


160 


PfCUSSIFia 


ROWJtIR 


ACHtlMIlIT    or    AIUCIUfT    CHAHTIH 

«TT»CHWt»T    *A* 

ADDITIOWAL  COTHACT  TlKWl  AaO  COWOITIOIIS 


■otwithstandlnq  any  tcrai  and  eonditloni  ttatad  alsavhar*  in  this 
contract,  tha  followlnf  additional  tara*  and  eondltiona  will  applyi 

18.   Chartarar  aqraaa  that  thl*  flight  la  to  ba  oparatad 
on  tha  following  achadula  (all  tlaaa  SHT) 

Aircraft  will  ba  poaitlenad  for  loading  at 
LIS  approxiaataly  0«OOS/Mareb  17. 


Dap 

■ 

P3S91 

March 

17 

Arr 

SNA 

03002 

March 

18 

Dap 

SMA 

0400Z 

Arr 

ANU 

093OZ 

Dap 

ANU 

10302 

Arr 

■ 

Il330l 

Aircraft  to  ba  offloadad  at  daatlnation  and 
raady  to  dapart  by  lC30Z/March  18. 

Chartarar  agraot  that 'ahoold  tha  cargo  not  ba  avallabla 
»t    origin  in  aufflclant  tlaa  to  load  and  dapart  within 
thraa  (3)  houra  of  achadula,  Carriar  haa  tha  right  tu 
raturn  tha  aircraft  to  Ita  baaa  of  oporatlons. 

Should  thla  happan,  Chartarar  agraat  that  Carriar  ahall 

ttlad  to  chargaa  for  positioning  an^d  dapoait lonir.g 
at  tha  rata  of  }4,700.00  par  block  hoar. 


(coatlnuad) 


5,<  001750 


7985  K  W.  I2tti  SU«a«  •  Wivnl.  Flortda  UI26-ia99 
TaltpNina  309   9M-«aO  •  Ta«a<  SZSOO  •  SHa:  MIAOOJW  •  CaMc  'Arrow  AJr"  ^ 


UNCLASSIREO 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on 


z<^a^'i2> 


undei  provisions  ot  E  0   12356 
by  K  Johnson.  National  Security  Council 


161 


IfilffiSiFIEfl 


ACRtEMENT  Of  klRCKArT  CHAKTER 

ATTACHMENT  "A" 

ADDITIONAL  CONTRACT  TERMS  AND  CONDITIONS 


21.  Ch«rt«r«r  ihill  b*  rcipondbl*  for  providing  to  C«rrier 
a  complat*  <nd  actual  aanifaat  of  cargo  to  b«  carriad 
on  thia  flight,  at  wall  at  any  othar  documan ta tion 
requirad  by  countriat  of  origin  and  dattination.   Should 
tha  docuaantation  not  ba  accaptabla  to  tha  pilot  in 
command,  tha  pilot  may  daclina  to  oparata  tha  flight  and 
Carriar  will  ba  antltlad  to  collact  tha  chargat  tat  forth 
in  point  20  aboTa. 


ARROW  AIR,  INC. 
David  M.  Sowart,  Vlca  Pratidant 


iU^  J- 


SOUTHERN    AIR    TRANSPORT,     INC. 


/rtfj: 


5AT 


0U1751 


'^mminL 


S/4-r-  roi')<r/ 


wmm 


162 


.  SjOyTREM!  AIR  TKAMSPOtT.    INC. 

mpfiED. 

Dae*  Of  Onckr/^tt^       //       /fg-^ 


i/km    ron:   >^/W"7^ 


Pay  to  tha  Ordar 

Aaount  of  Purchaaa: 

Purehaaa  Ordar  I  

Alrwayblll  f 

DapartBcnt 

Charia  to  Account  #  ^   

Approved  by:    /  f     /Oi i.'w-*-^)— 
Raouattad  by:  


(For  Accounting  Uaa  Only) 

Chack  No.   iSl  3  chack  Data:   |— l^'F-' 

Banks:     S.E.  Hat'l  flrat  Hat'l  ChlcaRO  t^ 


CHECK  REQUEST 

Data  Of  Chack:  I-  XP-S  f 

Pay  to  tha  Ordar  of    l^^^r^j.J  f\  .  r- 

cha—  *'•*  ■* 

Purchaaa  Ordar  I 
Altvayblll  f 
Daparcnenc 


A-ount  Of  Purcbaaa:  i;2i,^F0R:  _iS_:rW__Xw^ 
Purchaaa  Ordar  I  1 


Charga  to  Account  #     n^^r...^ 


~    ^^umimL 


Approved  by: S^    001752 

Raquaacad  by:  — ^  /~ 


(For  Accountlnii  Uaa  Only) 
Chack  No.    l^^l 


■■>f-^i^    U) 


"•nka:  S.E.   Nat'l  _  rir.t  N.fl  o., .  OCl')rU 


Flrat  Nat'l  ChlcaRo 


UNCLASSIFIED 


Partially  OeclassitieO/Released  on_ZS'<^«uvv  88 
under  pronsions  of  E  0   r2356 
by  K  Johnson^  National  Secunty  Council 


163 


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under  Ofovisions  o(  E  0  12356 
by  K  Johnson,  National  Secuniy  Council 


SS'3© 


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PISIJI^T^ 


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SOUTHERN  AIR  TRANSPORT.  INa 


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171 


TRANSCRIPT 
OF  PROCEEDINGS 

CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED    STATES    SENATE  ^ 

COpM      ^  SELECT   COMMITTEE    ON 

SECRET   MILITARY   ASSISTANCE    TO 
IRAN   AND   THE   NICARAGUAN   OPPOSITION 


'^"iwfeiiawBM 


DEPOSITION   OF  ALEX  G.    NAGY 


A   L 


Washington,  D.  C 


YOU 


Wednesday,  March  18,  1987 

^  rtially  Declassified/Released  on    /■^-'^■^~  ^7 
under  provisions  of  E.O.  12356 
by  N.  M.nan,  National  Security^^i^^^j^L  REPORTERS,  INC. 

Sttnctypc  Rfputten 
444  North  Capitol  Street 
Wuhington,  D.C.  20001 

(2(5)  347-3700 
Nsfeionwidc  Coverage 

800-336-6646  ^jgp^ 


CR20336.1 
COX/sjg 


2 
3 
4 
5 

6 

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8 
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172 


UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  ALEX  G.  NAGY 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Wednesday,  March  18,  1987 

Deposition  of  ALEX  G.  NAGY,  called  fcr  examination  by  the 
Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran 
and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition,  at  the  Old  Executive  Office 
Building,  Seventeenth  Street  and  Pennsylvania  Avenue,  N.W. , 
Room  115,  at  12:15  p.m.  before  WENDY  S.  COX,  a  Notary  Public 
within  and  for  the  District  of  Columbia,  when  were  present: 


CAMERON  H.  HOLMES,  ESQ. 

Associate  Counsel 

Senate  Select  Committee 

Hart  Senate  Office  Building 

Room  SH-901 

Washington,  D.  C.   20510 

On  behalf  of  the  Committee. 


ALAN  CHARLE  RAUL,  ESQ. 

Associate  Counsel  to  the  President 

The  White  House 

On  behalf  of  the  Deponent. 


iNCUSSIFIE 


--  continued   — 


Ace-Feder.\l  Reporters,  L\c. 


173 


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APPEARANCES  (Continued) 


ARNOLD  INTRATER,  ESQ. 

General  Counsel 

Office  of  Administration 

Room  48  0 

Old  Executive  Office 

Building 
17th  Street  &  Pennsylvania 

Avenue,  N.W. 
Washington,  D.  C. 


ALSO  PRESENT: 


DENNIS  TETI 

CLARK  B.  HALL 

Investigators 

House  Select  Committee 


AcF-FfOPTPat    PTrr><->T?-ruPQ    Tvr 


174 


II 


)OiniL.y 


HOo 


CONTENTS 


z 

WITNESS 

3 

4 

Alex 
by 

G. 

Mr 

Nagy 
Holmes 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10  , 

11 

12  ; 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

la 

19 

20 

1 

21 

* 

52 

EXAMINATION 


Ace-Feder.\l  Reporters,  Ixc. 


175 


30  226.  I 
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2  2 


PROCKEDXNGS 
Whereupon, 

ALEX  NAGY 
was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  Cirst  beeii  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

MR.  RAUL:   If  I  could  just  make  in  opening  --  soitie 
opening  poi  nts . 

MR.  H0LME3  :   'iure. 

MR.  RAUL:   I  want  to  note  that  Mr.  Nagy  is  ' 
appearing  here  voluntarily  pursuant  to  the  letter  request 
submitted  by  the  Senate  Select  Committee  signed  by  Chairmari 
Inouye  and  Vice-chairman  Rudmaii. 

Mr.  Nagy,  beside  myseJC  is  Arnoid  Tnt.rater, 
counsel  for  the  Office  of  Adminis  trati(3n.   This  deposition 
wiJJ  be  unclassified,  so  that  should  any  classified  matters 
arise,  in  your  opinion,  if  you  (:ould  just  indicate  that  nhat 
might  come  up,  we  will  go  off  the  record  and  figuie  out  how 
to  provide  that  information  in  another  matter.   Although  I 
don't  anticipate  that  there  would  be  any  subjects  falling 
into  that  category,  but  just  so  that  it  is  clear  that 
classified  information  won't  be  discvissed  during  the 
deposition.   Thank  you  very  much  Lor  giving  us  this 


^AceTederal  Reporter: 


lceT^deral  Reporters,  Inc. 


176 


30226.1 
COX 


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3 

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7 

a 

9 

in 
II 

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opportuni  ty . 


wmsiff 


EXAMINATION 
Blf  MR.  HOLMES: 

Q     Mr.  Ndgy,  would  you  please  atate  your  name. 

A     Alex  G.  Nagy. 

Q     What  is  your  employment  title? 

A     I  am  the  director  ot:  the  Whitu  Hejuse  and  Excjcu  I:  i  ve 
Office  of  the  President  telephone  services. 

Q     How  long  have  you  had  that  position? 

A     Since  November  197fl. 

Q     Have  you  ever  had  your  deposition  liakon  beCon;? 

A     No,  T  have  not. 

Q     I  want  you  to  just  relax  and  listen  to  the 
questions.   If  you  don't  understand  a  cjuestion,  sto^j  me,  and 
I  will  rephrase  the  question  or  ask  anothet-  question. 

A     All  right. 

Q  If    you    don't    stop    me,    I    will    assume    tfiat    you 

understo(5d    it;     is    that    fair? 

A  Yes,    sir. 

Q  You  have  to  answer  audibly  so  that  she  can  take 
down  your  re;?ponse.  She  is  instructed  not  to  try  and  tead 
your  nods  or  your  facial  expressions,  just  the  words,  tlo  you 


,  Inc. 


Nationwide  Coverage 


sno-nft-<wwi 


177 


30226.  1 
COX 


ONCUSSiriED 


1 

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4 
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6 
7 
8 
9 
10 

u 

12 
13 
M 
15 
16 
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understand? 

A     Okay. 

Q     If  we  get  into  highly  technical  areas,  I  would 
like  you  to  l:ry  and  speak  down  to  as  general  an  audience  as 
you  possibly  can,  so  we  can  understand  the  phraseology,  take; 
the  time  necessary  to  translate,  if  you  would,  please.   Is 
that  okay? 

A     Yes. 

Q     I  wonder  if  you  could  describe  in  general  the 
White  House  system  ovex-  which  you  have  control? 

A     Basically  it  is  the  White  House  administrative 
teleph<3ne  system,  which  encompasses  the  White  House  and 
Executive  Office  oC  the  President  agencies  within  tfie  18 
acres  of  the  compound.   The  system  is  a  telephone  system 
which  we  call  on-premises,  on-site  location.   It's  in  tlie 
basement  of  the  Old  Kxecutive  Office  Duilding.   It  providej 
telephone  service,  telephone  lines,  throughout  the  complex, 
approximately,  I  would  say,  1000  telepliono  lines  are  utili'/ed 
on  the  system. 

Q     4000  ilifferent  telephones? 

A     Telephone  lines,  the  circuit  numbers,  Mnci.T,  like 
four,  five,  six  for  one  floor,  wh.itever.   The  instruments. 


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now,     |-.he    telephone    instruments,    you   pr<5bably    ccjuld    roughly  I 

i 

double,  say,  QOOO  telephone  instruments  throughout  the        I 

i 
complex.  j 

I 

Q     Who  provides  the  instrumentation?  j 

A  The  instrumentation  is  provided  by  the  AT&T. 

Q  Who  provides  the  1 ine  service?                     I 

A  C&P  Telephone  Company.                              I 

Q  Under  what  kind  of  arrangement  is  the  line  service 

provided  by  C&P?                                                 I 

A  It's  on  a  lease-type,  it's  a  lease  with  C&P  and 

AT&T.   Bol.h  are  uivier  lease.   It's  been  in  ex  is  tonce  ,  3  ince 

day  1  at  the  White  House,  way  back  before  my  time.             ; 

Q  Tlie  leaae-type  system  was  in  efL'ect  prior  to 

November  of  '70? 

i 
A     Yes. 

i 
Q     Is  that  pursuant  to  a  contract  that  is  renewed 

yearly? 

A 

Q 

A 


No,  it  is  not  renewed  yearly. 

What  is  l.he  term  of  the  contract? 

As  Car  as  I  know,  a  lifetime  contract,  unless  it's 


changeil  by  us.   It  h.i.-;  to  do  with  securii.y  aspects  to  l.he 
Secret  Service.   The  on-premines  telephone  switch  was  put  in 


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place  at  the  White  Housu  aCter  the  President  Kennedy 
assassination.   It  was  mandated  by  the  Warren  Coininission  that 
we  havo  an  on-premise  telephone  switch  here  Eor  security 
purposes  . 

Q     Do  the  security  purposes  affect  the  way  the  phone 
system  monitors  itself  for  billiny  purposes? 

A     No,  it  does  not. 

Q     Does  the  White  House  switch  operate  as  a  regular 
commercial  switch  would  for  those  purposes? 

A     Yes,  in  essence,  it  would. 

Q     So  that  if  a  long  distance  calJ  is  made  from  here, 
a  biiling  entry  is  created  in  relation  to  that  particular 
call? 

A     That's  correct.   The  biJling  comes  fiom  ATST  feu 
.long  distance. 

MR.  RAUL:   Is  that  in  every  case,  Mr.  Nagy? 
THE  WITNESS:   It  is  only  in  cases  where  you  dial 
9,  then  the  area  code.   And  then  a  bill  will  be  generated 
monthly  designating  where  that  call  —  what  number  originati^d 
that  call,  the  numbers,  the  duration  of  time  and  the  cost, 
just  like  if  you  were  home  placing  a  long  distance  telephone? 


call. 


INCUSSIFIEO 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


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1  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

2  Q     How  many  other  ways  are  there  o£  making  a  long 

3  distance  call?  ! 

4  A     Within  the  continental  United  States,  the  FTS       I 

5  system,  the  Federal  Telecommunications  System. 

1 

6  Q     Is  that  only  other  way  other  than  dialing  a  9  and  j 

7  tl\e  area  code?  i 

8  A     Hell,  there  are  ways  --  let  me  defiirie  a  little     i 

9  further  about  the  long  distance.   If  someone  originates  a 

10  call  ill  their  office  by  dialing  9  and  0,  it  automatically  is  i 

11  processed  tlirough  the  long  distance  outside  our  capabilities,  j 

12  where  the  bill  is  originated,  coming  back,  showing  you  that   j 

I 

13  number.   It  they  dial  zero  and  get  U\s   White  Hou:ie  | 

14  switchboard  operating,  then  the  telephone  switchboard 
L5  operator  would  place  the  call  for  the  individual.   The 

16  billing  number  would  come  back  reflecting  the  main  numbtir  at 

17  the  White  House,  456-1414. 

18  Q    Undei-  what  circumstances  do  people  use  the  main 

19  switchboard  operator  to  generate  their  long  distance  phone 

20  calls? 

21  A     Usually  —  well,  the  majority  of  calls  for  your 

22  senior  officials  in  the  administration  are  placed  by  the 


yMEU&SIIiL ... 


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1  operator,  where  they  would  get  the  operator  directly  by 

2  either  dialing  zero  or  have  a  direct  line  to  the  switchboard 

3  oCt  of  the  switchboard,  where  they  would  ask  the  oper.itor  to 
1  process  the  call  Cor  them. 

5  <2  ^o,    Cor  the  senior  c^nCicials ,  therr;  is  no  record 

61  of  where  the  call  originated  as  far  as  AT&T  is  concerned? 

7  A     Not  unless  it's  dialed  directly  from  their 

bI  telephone. 

9  Q     Yos,  because  i J.    they  were  through  the  operator, 

10  they  simply  reflect  tlie  I^Se-lAll  origination? 

11  A    That  js  correct. 

12  Q    Within  the  system  here  on  the  U3  acrus,  wh.it 

13  record  is  generated  of  the  origination  of  calls  that,  in 
11  fact,  go  through  the  operator? 

]5  A     Th^re  is  no  record. 

Id  Q     Now,  is  the  White  House  staff  monitored  as  to 

17  possible  abuses  of  the  telephone  system,  excessive  long 

la  distance  time? 

19  A     The  only  way  that  they  are  monitored,  the  monthJy 

20  bill,  which  t  get  the  monthly  biU.   In  turn,  I  more  or  less 

21  do  an  analysis  on  the  bill,  to  see  what  time  the  call  is 

22  placed,  location,  so  on.   Then  we  query  that  office.   And  if 


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1  there,  is  some  questionable  liotibt  .ibout  the  call. 

2  Q     My  question  is  how  do  you  know  which  otfice  to 

3  query? 

4  A     There  is  no  way  to  know  from  the  switchbocird,  i  1; 

5  it  just  <lesignates  the  number  oC  the  office,  tliat's  the  way. 

6  There's  no  way  on  the  switchboard  you  would  know  where  it 

7  originated  from,  because  it  goes  to  the  1411  bill. 

8  Q     So  the  senior  officials,  in  effect,  have  carte 

9  blanche  on  their  long  distance  calls? 

10  A     Yes .  ^- 

11  MR.  RAUL;   Mr.  NeKjy,  are  there  any  temporary 

12  records  that  are  kept  that  you  use  for  jujt  —  just  to  make 

13  sure  that  the  telephone  company  hasn't  made  any  mistakes? 
U  THE  WITNESS:   Weil,  the  operator  tiliflt-oafea 
\S  1  i  ttle' ticket  f «as~  the  long  distance  calls,  and  this~i«-> 

16  basically  an  in-house  operation.   You  utilize  mostly  foi-  — 

17  say  the  call  did  not  go  through,  for  some  reason  or  another 

18  it  was  busy  or  whatever.   They  would  then  ask  if  the  person 

19  placing  the  call,  if  they  would  like  for  them  to  keep  on 

20  trying  that  call  till  they  got  through.   That  is  a  daily -Jiype 

21  record  that  is  kept  by  the  operations  of  the  operator.   T  do 

22  keep  tlie  tickets  for  the  liing  distance  calls  that  are  piaccil. 


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:y  .iccrutatu 


IS  gone 


when  I  match  it  up  to  the  lon.j  distance  bill  to  a.sur..  that 
that  call  actually  did  go  through.  Cor  paying  purposes. 
BY  MR.  HOr.MES: 
Q     How  long  do  you  keep  track  of  those? 
A     Usually  it's  a  month,  because  it's  pr.ett^ 
to  get  a  bill  within  a  month's  period. 

Q     Arc;  there  except  iojis  to  the  one  month? 
A     There  may  be,  on  occasion.   I  think  it  has 
two  montlis  at  the  most. 

Q     Have  you  impounded  any  particular  months  for  your 
own  internal  information  or  any  external  requests  over  the 
last  year? 

A     No,  I  have  not. 

Q    So  ail  you  have  on  hand  now  is  perhaps  ihi:  last' 
mcjnth  or  so? 

A     Right,  February,  I  would  say,  yes. 
Q     What  do  those  tickets  Look  like? 
A     They  are  manufactured  by  GSA.       There  are  a 
standard  toil  ticket  type.   It  has  information  —  the  number 
the  call  is  coming  from,  the  party  placing  the  call,  the 
number  they  are  calling  and  the  location,  state  or  whatever, 
the  country.   The  time  that  the  call  was  placed.   They  put 


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1  the  time  down,  when  it  was  connected. 

2  Q     What,  do  you  do  with  those  tickets  on  a  monthly 
"5  basis  oC  where  are  they  stored? 

4  A     I  have  thera  down  in  my  office. 

5  Q     Yon  keep  then  in  your  office? 

6  A     Yes. 

7  Q     Yovi  collect  them  from  the  various  operators? 

8  A     Yes.   They  are  k-^pt  in  the  operational  area  till 

9  the  end  of  the  month.   The  first  of  the;  month,  T  take  thctm. 

10  Because  we  cjet  the  bill  in  around  the  10th  ot    the  month,  the 

11  long  distance  bill,  we  usually  get  it.   That  is  for  the 

12  preceding  month. 

13  Q     Let's  discuss  the  FTS  calls.   How  are  they 

1 

11  arranged? 

15  A     Okay.   The  fTS  calls,  t  fiere  are  no  rcicords  of  FTf; 

16  calls  at  the  White  House,  since  the  sensitivity  ot    the  switch 

17  and  Secret  Service  interest  in  it.   In  order  to  have  a 
113  record,  GSA  wanted  to  put  some  metering  devices  in  their 

19  switch  so  they  could  get  the  information  that  they  needed. 

20  This  is  back  in,  I  believe  it  was  in  July  of  'Q4  they  came  up 

21  with  that  request.   Secret  Service  would  not  honor  that.   So 

22  tlie  way  that  we  are  billed  for  FTS  calls  is  basically  by  the 


\mmii 


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1  use  oe  the  trunks.   We  have  55  FTS  trunks  in  our  telephone 

2  switch.   A  random  survey  is  puJJed  on  the  usage  of  that 

3  i.runk,  broken  down  into  minutes  per  month  that  it  is  used. 

4  That  information  is  provided  to  GSA  by  C&P  Telephone 

5  Ccjmpany. 

fi  Q     Explain  the  billing  mechanism  then.   CSP  does  sort 

7  of  a  spot  check  random  usage? 

8  A     Yes.   Whenever  GSA  goes  to  CS.P  and  requests  the 

9  usage  of  the  trunks,  C&P  provides  the  information  during  tnat 

10  time  period  that  they  are  requesting  on.   It's  usually  in 

11  minutes  in  the  day  or  montli  that  it's  utilized. 

12  Then  we  are  billed  basically  J  i  !<e  on  a  flat  rate 
11  basis.   It's  a  physical  year  billed  as  genera  tiir  for  the 

H  usage  of  the  55  trunks  at  the  White  flouse. 

15  Q     GHA  allocates  a  budgetary  tran>3fer  frcim  White 

16  House  budget  to  general  fund  on  the  basis  of  that  data? 

1.7  A     Yes.   Well,  when  we  get  --  when  I  get  the  bill, 

10  the  bill  comes  to  me,  1    further  break  it  down  on  a  pro  rata 

19  basis.   What  I  mean  by  pro  rata,  based  upon  the  amount  of 

20  lines  that  each  agency  has  with  the  KTS  capability  on  it. 

21  Q     How  many  agencies  are  you  talking  about? 

22  A     We  are  talking  about  17. 


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i  .Q  Is    Lhere   a    list    soinewhere    ot:    ail    ot    these? 

2  AT    couia    provide    a    Jist.       COP,    0MB. 

3  MR.    RAUL:       I    am    sure    there    is.       In    fact,     it    must 

4  be    in    the    Code    of    Federal    Regulations.       Jvist    the    agencies 

5  within    the    Exectitive   OEt'ice    ot    the    Pres  ideii  I.? 

6  THE    WITNESS:       Yhs  .       Within    our    complex.       There    <-ire 

7  .some    otitside    oi;    our    complex. 

8  BY    MR.     HOLMES: 

9  Q     These  are  all  agencies  within  the  Executive  Office 

10  oC  tlie  President? 

11  A     Yes  within  our  compound,  the  18  cicr(-s  hctre. 

12  Q     Then  you,  in  turn,  make  the  billing  ti5  eacli  oi! 

13  those  17  agencies  as  based  ori  a  pro  rata  share? 

14  A     Then  on  the  pro  rata,  I  provide  the  percentile 

15  back  to  GSA,  who  in  turn  bills  the  agency  on  a  quarterly 

16  basis. 

17  Q     GSA  bills  each  agency  direct? 
lU  A    Correct. 

19  Q     I  assume  that  from  time  to  time  people  cali  the 

20  White  House  with  harassing  or  threatening  intentions? 

21  A     Yes,  just  abovit  everyday. 

22  Q     I  assume  that  you  have  made  provisions  for  that  in 


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your  telephone  system? 

A     We  have  procedures  for  that,  yes 


16 


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Q     You  wouldn't  have  any  knowJedye  at    any  particular 
projects  t-.hat  may  or  may  not  have  tal<«n  pLai:« 
in  the  NSC  StaCC  files? 

A     No. 

Q     Do  you  have  pay  phones  on  the  premise? 

A     Yes ,  we  do . 

Q     How  are  those  managed? 

A     Basically  just  like  ail  l".l>e  oi-.her  pay  phones. 
They  are  usually  on  each  Cloor,  I  think,  at  the  end  of  the 
hall.   You  pay  your  25  cents  or  20  cents,  whatever  it  is,  .ini: 
make  your  phone  rails  on  them.   Just  like  any  other  pay 
phone. 

Q     Are  those  routed  through  your  White  House  switch? 

A     No,  l:hey  are  commercial  lines.   They  don't  yo 
through  our  switch. 

Q     They  are  completely  separate  and  apart,  from  your 
system? 

A     Correct. 

g     They  would  be  accounted  for  in  the  same  manner  as 
any  other  pay  phone  in  the  District? 

A     That's  correct. 


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1  Q  Through  whatever  the  switcth  and  computer  line  or 

2  system  that  CSP  has? 

.3  A     That's  correct. 

4  Q     Are  there  any  records  oC  —  are  there  any 

5  electronic  recordkeepiny  systems  in  place  on    any  Whlto  H<3U3e 

6  telephones? 

7  A     No,  tl^ere  are  not. 

8  Q     Are  you  talking  about  within  your  system  at  all? 

9  A     I  am  talking  within  the  system  Lliat  we  have  hero 

10  on  our  premises,  the  telephone  lines  Cor  the  KOB  and  Wtiite 

11  House  go  through. 

12  MR.  RAUL:   I  assume  you  understand  that  all  of 

13  Mr.  Nagy's  answers  are  to  his  knowledge.   I  am  injt  implying 
I 

14  anything  else,  but  only  that  it  is  clear  that  Mr.  Nagy  is 

15  responding  as  to  what  he  knows  about  that  comes  under  his 

16  jurisdiction.   I  am  not  suggesting  that  there  are  other 

17  matters,  only  that  this  should  be  clear. 

18  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

19  Q     Let's  narrow  it  down  to  what  you  know  about  it, 

20  okay? 

21  A     Basically,  it  gets  to  be  in  a  technical  area  which 

22  I  am  not  that  expertise  in,  when  we  are  talking  about  the 


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21 


1  telephone  switch  itself.   May  ot:  List  year,  the  end  of:  May, 

2  the  last  day  in  May,  the  present  telephone  switching  center 

3  was  implemented  in  the  bottom  ot    this  basement.   They 

1  replaced  an  old  manual  --  Number  5  cross  bar  switch,  best  way 

5  tu  describe  it,  the  termincj  logy ,  it's  a  manual  I'.ype.   Th<: 

f  present  system  is  called  DMS-100,  digital  teJepfione  switch. 

7  That  was  activated  end  ot   May  ot    last  year. 

8  The  primary  reason  for  the  activation  of  it  was, 

9  of  course,  the  old  obsolete  one  was  really  detrimentaL  in 

10  maintaining  it.   They  ran  out  of  parts,  quaJified  people  and 

11  so  c)n.   So  the  n«w  switch  utiliiies  a  state  of  the  art 

12  technology,  less  people  to  man  it,  and  the  whole  salesmanship 

13  that  tliey  give  you  with  it. 

H  Now,  the  new  switch  has  certain  capabilities  in  i  r. 

15  that  could  be  offered  to  a  subscribed  use,  detailed  call 

16  recording,  for  one,  where  it  gives  you  information  on  eveTy 

17  call  that  is  placed  from  the  telephone  going  outside  of  the 

18  complex,  nothing  internal. 

1.9  In  order  to  implement  that  in  this  switch,  which, 

20  really,  in  our  needs  at  the  White  House,  there  is  no  useful 

21  purpose  for  it,  you  would  have  to  purchase  additional 

22  equipment,  you  would  have  to  go  into  an  additional  l«-asing 


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L  requirement,  leaaintj  time,  what  they  call  time  shared  otf:  ol= 

2  the  switch  from  C&P,  e.t    cetera.   We  are  talking  a  rough 

3  estimate  oC  maybe  100,01)0  to  $lbO,000  to  do  that.   Contrary 

4  to  what  they  say  about  electronics,  that  you  utjli/.e  losr. 

5  people,  that's  not  true,  you  would  have  to  have  more  people 

6  to  maintain  records  and  everything  else. 

7  There  was  no  need  Cor  the  --  tliere  is  no  need  for 

8  it  here  at  the  White  House,  trj  have  that  type  of 

9  recordkeeping. 

10  Q     So  you  elected  not  to  have  it? 

11  \  Yes,  like  numerous  othor  subscribers  iU;o  liave 

12  it. 

13  Q     Sure.   Are  employees  of  the  Whi  tt.;  Ho\ise  instructed 
11  to  keep  phone  logs  of  their  own  pliones  and  'tails? 

15'  A     There  have  been  cases  where  it  got  info  the 

16  political  area  during  campaign  time,  where  they  ire 

17  performing  a  dual  function,  maybe,  on  a  political  campaign     | 

i 

18  trail  and  so  on,  where  they  were  making  calls  from  their      | 

i 

19  office  where  they  were  keeping  records  and  making  ] 

20  reimbursements  for  that,  the  National  Democratic  Comiiii  t  ti.-e  or 

21  National  Republican  Committee  would  keep  records  and 

22  reimburse  it.   That  was  the  only  occasion  I  could  si.-e  wheire 


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recordl<eepin<j  was  done.   Tlidt  I  know  of. 

Q     This  was  a  cyclical  type  of  recordkeeping  in  order 
to  separal;e  the  politiCriL  usaye  Eroin  the  nonpolicicai  usage? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q     That  liasn't  been  cycled  through  recently? 

A     No. 

Q     Vou  are  not  aware  of  any  other  office  policies  or 
systems  in  which  tlie  employees  keep  tlieir  own  phone  lines? 

A     No,  I  am  not. 

Q     To  your  knowledge,  there  is  no  electx'onlc 
attribution  of  calls  to  a  particular  phone  other  than  for  the 
long  distance  calls  that  are  not  done  through  the  switchboat-d 
and  are  not  FTS? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q     Are  we  excluding  from  discussion  tlie  miJitary 
plione  system? 

A     Yes.   Like  I  stated  from  the  beginning,  my 
responsibility  is  on  the  administrative  side  of  the  hcjuse. 
The  military  comes  under  the  juri  .«!dicti  on  of  the  military 
office  of  the  White  (louse  Communication  Agency. 

MR.  HOLMES:   Alan,  is  this  the  system  — 

MR.  RAUL:   That's  correct.   We  had  scheduled 


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1  another  deposition  Eor  today  that,  by  agreement,  we  havo 

2  postponed  until  another  day,  where  a  representative  from  the 

3  White  House  Communications  Agency  will  provide  Cor  you  l.he 
-1  information  regarding  the  other-  switchboard,  that  is 
b  admini:i  tered  by  the  White  House  Communications  Agency  under 

6  military  jurisdiction. 

7  RY  MR.  HOLMES: 

8|  Q     you  have  no  knowledge  of  their  switching 

9  techniques? 

10  A     Their  switching  capabilities  go  through  the  same 

11  telephone  switch.   They  utilize  the  same  switch  as  cjurs  in 

12  the  central  office.   The  onjy  difference  is  they  have  their 

13  own  prefix  per  sn,  like  39S-2000  telephone  numbers. 

14  Q     That  separates  them  for  billing  purposes? 

15  A     Yes,  they  receive  their  own  bills  and  however  it 

16  is  divided  down. 

17  Q    How  are  the  two  systems  kept  separate  in  terms  of 
1(3  outgoing  calls?  , 

19  A     Basically  they  are  not.   It's  just  whatever 

20  circuit  or  trunk  is  free  at  the  time  r.hey  place  the  call  on 

21  their  utility  lines.   If  they  are  making  a  long  distance 

22  call,  for  example,  thciy  are  dialing  9,  they  will  get  one  oi: 


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the  outside  trunks  to  go  outside,  or  FTS  trunks,  it    you 
an  FTS  call. 

Q     So  for  purposes  of  outgoing  calls,  they  sort  of 
piggyback  in  the  same  sharing  arrangements  with  the  other 
agenci  es  ? 

A     Yes,  utilizes  the  same  circuitry,  whatever. 
Q     If  they  are  utilizing  the  exact  same  circuitry, 
then  the  computer  records  they  keep  of  their  outgoing  calls 
must  be  kept  of  yours  as  well?   Is  that  not  true? 

MR.  RAUL:   Mr.  Holmes,  what  computer  records  Hre 
you  talking  about? 

MR.  HOLMKS :   The  VAX  system. 

MR.  RMIL:   You  raised  a  subje<;t  that  Mr.  Nagy 
didn't  testify  to,  but  drawing  upon  an  earlier  deposition 
tod.iy. 

MR.  HOLMES:   Right.  j 

i 
MR.  RAfJL:   If  I  could  just  clarify  that,  that  does  I 

not  relate  to  —  I  am  not  testifying  here  and  1  am  just        | 

trying  to  clarify  this  point.   I  believe  that  that  refer<.Mic«  j 

to  the  VAX  system  was  to  cable  traffic  and  does  not  relate  to 

phone  traffic. 

Now  I  am  not  a  technical  expert  or  even 


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1  particularly  conversant  in  this  area,  but  my  understanding  is 

2  that  cable  traffic  is  distinct  from  telephotie  traffic.   And 

3  the  cable  traffic  is  sort  of  —  is  a  different  kind  of 
electronic  communication  than  a  voice,  telephone  voice 

5  communica  tic)n . 

6  THK  WITNESS:   We  are  talking  about  data  traffic, 

7  computer  data-type  traffic? 

fl  MR.  HAUL:   The  point  that  Mr.  Holmes  is  raising 

9  i:(3ncerns  information  that  whether  you  call  it  eledironic 

10  traffic,  I  call  it  cable  traffic,  it  relates  to  cables, 

11  telexes. 

12  THE  WITNESS:   That's  an  entirely  different 
l.l  circuitry  that  handles  that. 

11  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

IS  Q     I  wonder  if  you  could  explain,  first  of  all,  the 

J  6  parameters  of  exactly  what  kind  of  service,    it.    is.   You  are 

17   .  talking  only  about  oral  communications  over  voice 

10  communication  lines? 

19  A     Oral,  voice  communications,  yes. 

20  Q     So  for  your  purposes,  you  have  nothing  to  do  even 

21  with  a  computer  use  of  a  modem  ovor  the  telephone  lines  with 

22  the  telephone 


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1  A     No,  I  lion '  t .   The  only  Lhinij  I  ge.t    involved  in  is 

2  getting  that  ordered  vip  for  the  agency  to  request  it  and  so 

3  on . 

4  Q     How  is  that  bilJed,  not  tyirough  you? 

5  A     No,  it's  billed  through  the  agency  directly. 

6  Q     So  they  woiiJd  have  to  have  a  specific  least;  line 

7  f(3f  their  computer  modem  traffic? 

8  A     Yes. 

9  Q     They  would  pay  for  that  originally? 

10  A     Yes.   It  would  appear  on  your  telephone  bill 

11  monthly  that  they  get. 

12  Q     How  many  modems  are  there  on  the  syutem? 
13|  A     I  have  no  idea. 

11  Q     The  only  way  we  could  find  th.it  out  would  be  to 

15  look  at  one  of  your  monthly  master  bills  and  checlf  out  the 

Irt  rental  tor  locjse  lines? 

17  A     Fven  in  that  case  you  probably  wouldn't  be  able  to 

18  get  the  information,  because  all  it  says  is  for  .sefvice.   It 

19  doesn't  break  it  down  basically  on  your  modems  or  whati-vf;r. 

20  Q     Where  w<5uld  that  information  be  available? 

21  A     Through,  probably,  on  for  our  side,  administrative 

22  side,  would  be  our  automated  systems  <iivisic5n. 


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1  Q     AutomAted  sysf.ems  division  ol;  what.? 

2  A    Of  the  Office  of  Administration. 

3  Q    Who  is  that? 

4  A  Mr .    Jules    DviPeza. 

5  Q  Jules    DtiPeza? 

6  A  Yes. 

7  Q     Could  you  spell  it,  please? 

8  MR.  INTRATFW:   Capital  D-u-capi taJ  P-e-z-a,  first 

9  name  Jules . 

10  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

11  Q    So  there  is  no  computer  m<jdem  use  of  the  lines 

12  that  you  control? 

13  A     That's  correct. 

1-1  Q     Could  you  explain  thp  difference  between  the  vaicc; 

ISi  traffic  in  its  electronic  c:ommun  ica  tion  with  cable  and  telox 

16  traffic. 

17  A     I  will  try  to  put  it  down  in  simplest  terms,  1  tkc; 
10  you  say. 

19  Q    Yes.   I  would  appreciate  it.   If  you  can  make  me 

20  understand  this,  then  you  are  d(3ing  a  good  job. 

21  A     Tf  I  can  understand  it  myself.   Probably  the  best 

22  way  to  define  it,  for  your  cablin<;  and  your  special  service. 


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1  like  Cor  data  and  secure  voice  and  so  on,  is  a  reCinerl 

2  circuit  that  --  that  is  engineered  for  that  purpose  of 

J  passing  that  type  o£  tratfic,  cabling,  secured  volco  and 

4  data. 

b  your  voice  circuitry  is  just  your  everyday 

6  common-type  voice  telephone  line.   So  there  is  an  engineering 

7  process  that  is  utilized  in  the  special  circuitry,  as  we 

fl  say.   11;  hau  to  be  eiigineered  by  the  telephone  cijinpany  Eor 

9  the  spe:cif  ications ,  whatever  it  is  going  ro  be  iitiJi;icd  for, 

10  basically. 

11  -Q  These  all  pass  through  the  same  S5  trunks  that  you 

12  have  talkr!<i  about? 

13  A     Yes.   They  cciuJd,  or  Lhey  could  have  a  direct 

14  capability.   What  t  mean,  if  you  had  a  special  cii'caic  from 

15  here  to  the  Department  oC  Ddfense,  they  could  run  a  circuit 

16  in  f.oL-    that  capability,  yes. 

17  Q     That  would  be  a  Jease  line? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  Q     And  it  would  be  specifically  engineered  to  go 

20  trom  -- 

21  A     From  point  A  to  point  H,  right. 

22  Q     T  a 


ssume  that  such  lease  lines  do  exist  for  st>cuc< 


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1  communica tions  between  the  White  House  and  various  of  the 

2  agencies? 

3  A     That's  correct. 

4  Q     So,  for  example,  CIA,  Department  of  Defense,  that 

5  kind  of  thing? 

6  A     Yes. 

7  Q     Are  those  circuits  susceptible  of  any  additional 

8  recordkeeping  than  the  regular  voice  circuits  that  you  have 

9  aJ  ready  de-scribed? 

10  MR.  HAUL:   Mr.  Holmes,  when  you  say  ".susceptible 

11  of,"  would  you  clear  that  up. 

12  BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

I 

13  Q     ^^e  they  capable,  firjt.   Then  we  will  get  into 

l-l  whether  or  not  you  exercised  that  option.   Let  me  ask  you 

15  this,  do  they  go  tlirough  tlie  same  switi:h? 

16  A     Yes. 

17  .  Q     So  they  go  through  your  new  DMS-100? 

18  A     Yes. 

19  Q     Does  that  mean  that  sirice  you  haven't  exerci.'ied 

20  the  option  of  having  the  call  origination  rocor<ikeeping 

21  capabilities  on  the  voice  lines,  that  you  likewise  do  not 

22  exercise  the  option  to  have  it  ou    any  of  the;ie  others? 


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A     That: 'is  correct. 

Q     So  there  are  no  records  of  any  of  these  other 
kinds  ot:  services  on  a  use-by-use  basis  either? 

A     That's  correct. 

Q     That  includes  cable? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Secure  voice? 

A     Now,  Lhis  is  to  my  best  recoJJ  ec  t  ion ,  because-, 
again,  the  majority  of  these  circuits  in  that  catei;oty  cuniii 
under  the  control  of  the  White  House  communication  base, 
secure  voice,  for  example,  a  lot  of  your  cablLn<j, 
telecommunications  center,  al]  of  that,  that  is  all  under  the 
White  Hciuse  C(3ramunicat  ion  . 

MR.  RAUL:   Under  the;  DMS-100  switch  under  the  Old 
Executive  Ol'fice  rtuildinrj.   How  much  oC  it  is  under  your 
jurisdiction?   What  component  of  the  data  t^lat  is  trATi.sferrcnl 
through  that  switch?  Xs    it  just  voice  on  l:he  Whitii  House 
.swi  tchboard? 

THE  WITNESS:   f es . 

MR.  SAUL:   Non-secure  voice? 

THE  WITNESS:   Non-secure. 


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1  .     BY  MR.  HOLMES: 

2  Q     All  right.   And  all  the  rest  of  the  WHCA  trafCic? 
^  A     Yea,  your  specialised  circuits  or  whatever. 

4  Q     WouJd  that  include  any  data  transmission  over 

5  plione  lines? 

6  A     There  ats    some  data  transmission  over  phone  lines, 

7  where  il:  you  have  an  office  that  has  a  Wang,  for  example, 

8  where  they  could  just  use  the  telephone  by  setting  it  in  the 

9  cradle  and  transmitting,  tliere  are  some  oi'ficea  within  i.he 

- 

10  complex  that  do  tiave  that  capability. 

11  ^     Q     Is  that  perceived  differently  for  CS.P  purposes. 

12  than  use  of  that  same  ] ine  for  a  voice  conversation? 

1.3  A     No,  not  that  I    know  of,  because  they  are  uciiizing 

i 

H  the  voice  Jine  for  that. 

15  Q.     Al.l  you  are  going  to  get  on  the  bill  ir  a  bill  for 

16  a  phone  call  that  originated  from  such-and-such  a  phone  on 

17  such-and-such  a  date  and  time  to  such-and-such  a  phonc!  and 
Ifl  looks  like  any  other  telephone  conversation? 

19  A     That's  correct. 

20  Q     even  though  what  actually  was  transpiring  <5n  that 

21  line  is  the  transmission  of  computer  data? 

22  A     That's  right. 


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Q    Would  tlLit  also  be  true  ot    other  specialized 
decryption-typf!  transmission  services  like  the  KL-'13  device? 

\  Ayaiii,  that's  in  the  White  House  communici  t  ion^- ,  1 

have  no  knowledge  of  that. 

Q    Okay. 

A     When  we  talk  secure,  secured  communications,  that 
is  not  mine  at  all. 

Q     Any  form  of  secured  communication  device  that 
exists  in  the  If)  acres  is  something  you  are  not  prepared  ti5 
talk  about? 

A     Yes,  sir,  that's  correct. 

Q     You  don't  know  about  it? 

A     I  have  an  idea  how  it  worka,  but  T  don't  know  Lhf-? 
whole  —  be  an  expert  on  it  to  talk  ab<jut  it. 

Q     All  right.   Are  you  aware  of  any  written  ) ogc  of 
phone  calls  of  any  kind  that  are  kept  in  the  Wliite  House 
compound? 

A     Yes,  I  am. 

Q     In  addition  to  the  ones  we  have;  talked  about,  kc:pi 
by  the  main  switchboard. 

A     That's  right. 

Q     Are  there  any  othors? 


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1  ^     Yes. 

2  Q    What  are  those? 

3  ^  There  is  a  presidential  call  lo«j. 

4  Q    Who  keeps  it? 

5  A     All  presidential  calls,  incoming  and  outgoing,  are 

6  processed  through  the  White  House  switchboard. 

7  Q     To  the  main  switchboard? 

8  A     To  the  main  switchboard. 

9  U     Designated  operator  or  any  operator? 
10  A    Yes,  there  is  an  operator. 

H  Q     A  designated  operator  just  for  this  purpose? 

12  A    One  on  each  shift,  yes,  there  is. 

13  Q    Go  ahead. 

14  A     The  log,  as  s  t.i  pvilated,  is  for  ingoing  and 

15  outgoing  calls  to  the  president.   The  operator  th.it  h. indies 

16  thein,  receives  them,  logs  it  on  a  log,  presidential  call  log, 

17  •  then,  of  course,  processes  the  call.   Then  at  thw  end  uf  e.ich 
Ifl  day,  2 4 -hour  period  -- 

19  Q    Does  the  log  include  the  beginning  and  end  of  the 

20  call? 

21  A     It  has  the  time  the  call  came  in  and  th«  time  it 
22 


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1  .Q     How  was  she  aware  of  l-he  disconnection? 

2  A     It's  a  manual  switch  where  she  puts  up  a  set  of 

3  cords  and  a  light  comns  on,  basically,  g«nerally  wh«n  r-.hi; 

4  ca.l]  is  finished.   She  just  puJ.ls  the  c:ord.«!  out. 

5  Q     This  is  sort  of  like  the  old  days  with  tlie  worn^n 

6  with  the  headphone? 

7  A     That's  correct.   That's  basicalJy  what  it  is, 

8  basically.   A  switchboard. 

91  Q     So  whenever  the  light  goes  out  over  the  slot  that 

10  she  haa  working,  slie  ju.sl:  pulls  the  cord  out  when  t.lie  call  is 

11  done? 

12  A     That's  correct. 

13  Q     It's  not  something  that  -- 
H  A     It's  not  electronically. 

15  Q    —  likely  to  be  ina<lvftr  ten  t .   She  is  either 

16  plugged  in  or  not  pulled  in? 

17  A     That's  correct. 

IB  Q    What  happens  to  the  logs? 

19  A     At  the  end  oL  the  day,  24-hour  period,  the  logs 

20  are  typed  up,  and  a  copy  is  put  in  a  sealed  envelope  and 

21  handed  over  to  the  personal  secretary  to  the  president.   The 

22  logs  are  for  archive  purposes.   Then  our  responsibility  ends. 


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1  our  working  copy  is  destroyed. 

2  Q    The  actual  original  moment  of  transaction  record 

3  is  destroyed? 

-1  A     Yes,  is  handwritten  by  the  operator.   That  is 

5  destroyed.   The  typewritten  one  is  official. 

6  Q    Who  types  it  up? 

7  A    The  midnight  shift  operator. 

8  Q     Who  is  that? 

9  A     Well,  we  have  three  different  peopli-i  on  the 

10  midnight  shift.   It  could  either  be  one  of  the  three 

11  telephone  operators. 

12  0     How  do  t^ley  type  it? 

13  A     On  a  —  I  think  i  t '  :j  an  IHM  Selectric  typewriter. 

14  Q     It's  not  a  word  processor? 

15  A    No,  it's  not  a  word  processor. 

16  MR.  RAUL:   Do  you  save  tfie  ribbons  on  the 

17  Selectric  typewriter? 

Ifl  THE  WITNESS:   Do  we  save  them?   They  are  thrown 

19  after  they  run  out,  put  in  the  burn  bag  or  h.aknn  off. 

20  MR.  HOLMES:   Thanks,  AJan,  that  was  my  next 

21  question. 

22  THE  WITNESS:   They  are  destroyed  once  it's  u;;c'cl 


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MR.  RAUL:   It's  a  team  effort. 

HY  MR.  HOLMES: 

There  is  only  one  copy  crertted? 

Yes. 

There  is  no  additional  backup  copy  or  anythincj? 

No,  just  the  working  copy  l:hat  i.he  operator  fill; 


out . 


Q     Are  they  destroyed  at  the  sntne  time  the  typed  copy 
is  created? 

A     They  are  maintained  in  a  cabinet  for  the  end  o.f 
t".he  month,  in  cise  there  are  some  questions  on  it,  any 
qutislionii  ahciut  number,  so  on,  might  call  from  the  archives. 

Q     What  does  the  personal  secretary  oi.    i.he  president: 
do  witli  L^leir  typed  version? 

A     I  gue.ss  it  goes  to  the  archives.   I  h.ive  tu5  idea 
what  she  does  with  it. 

Q     Since  you  don't,  in  your  normal  course  of 
business,  preserve  any  of  those  records,  you  wouldn't  have 
responded'  to  any  kind  of  re<iuests  for  those  records  in  i.he 
last  year  and  a  half,  say? 

A     There  have  been  re<2uests  for  pres  iiien  t  Lai  call 


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1.  logs,  I  .im  trying  to  think,  recently.   Was  the  Challenger 

2  within  the  last  year? 

3  Q     yes,  a  little  over  a  year  ago. 
1  A     Yes.   I  think  a  general  memo  came-  down  from 

5  Capitol  Hill  requesting  records  ofi  any  calls  l.hat  we  had. 

6  Tfiat  was  beyond  the  time  period  we  had  the  logs  anyhow. 

7  Q     So  yc3u  had  tcj  respond  as  you  have  just  responded 

a  to  me,  and  that  is  if  they  want  those  records,  they  will  have 

9  to  approach  I. lie  presidential  secretary  in  the  archives? 

10  A     Yes,  b.isically  I  responded  I  don't  have  the 

11  records.   T  think  it  went  out  as  .i  general-type  thing  t"rom 
^?  the  White  House,  big  document.   t  had  input  into  it. 

13  MR.  HOT.MKS :   Ml  right.   Otf  the  record. 

1  il  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

15  RY  MR.  HOLMES: 

16  Q     Mr.  Nagy,  T  would  like  to  talk  about  Ccill:: 

17  completed  within  the  system  from  one  phone  within  tlie  systein 
IB  to  another  phone  within  the  system.   Do  those  also  travel 

19  through  the  switch? 

20  A     Yes. 

21  Q     And  doing  so,  did  they  create  any  record  ot  their 

22  having  been  tl> rough  the  circuit? 


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I  A     No. 

">  Q     So  there  is  no  billing  effect  whatsoever  to  thrtt 

3  tielephone    call? 

''  ^           No,    it's    dJ  J    internal,    four    dicjit    dial,    whalevex, 

5  just    dial    the    numb«r. 

6  Q     VoT    maintenance  purposes,  are  thftre  any  elc-ctronic 

7  memories  of  what  phono  <:alis  ar<;  beimj  made? 
H  ■       A     No. 

9  Q     How  do  you  know  that?   How  do  you  know  there  it:  no 

10  such  record? 

11  A.    WeJ  ]  ,  basically  because  of  what  we  are  utilii:inq, 

12  I  don't  see  h(5w  they  could  have  the  i:apability  on  it.   You 
1.1  would  have  to  approach  a  piece  of  equipment  we  are  taJkinci 
111  about  to  have  detaileil  call  recording  or  to  be  able  i.o  r.tjlL 
J5  how  calls  we  generate  are  going  to. 

16  The  phone  on  the  desk  there,  there  is  th(i  old  whai. 

17  .  they  caJi  A-1  keysets.   T  think  what  you  are  trying  to  say, 

18  you  have  a  lot  of:  your  new  electriDnic  telephone  sets  that  are 

19  out  on  the  market  that  have  capabilities  of  Jast  number 

20  dialed,  recording,  so  on.   We  dcjn't  have  that.   For  security 

21  purposes,  they  are  not  within  the  compound.   Secret  Service, 

22  again,  evaluates  all  the  equipmM^^Lha  t  we  have  in  here,  and 


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1  there  are  certain  specifications  that  then  you  would  havo  to 

2  meet;  those  phones  have  been  in  operation,  again,  beCore  T 

3  was  here,  probably  a  good  20  years  easily,  25  ye.irs. 

4  Q     So  you  are  saying  that  this  A-l  set  ht-re  in  this 

5  ofitice  is  the  prototype  of  all  the  other  ones  in  the 

6  compound? 

7  A     Yes . 

8  Q     There  are  no  other  vendors,  then,  other  than  ATS.T. 

9  and  no  more  modern  phone  systems  in  use? 

10  A     ATST  does  have  a  telephone  system,  it's  called  the 

11  Merlin,  I  believe,  M-e-r-l-i-n.   Again,  l.he  White  House 

12  Communications  Agency  utilizes  these  telephone  sets.   It's 
131  mostly  in  a  trip  environment,  where  its  easy  ai-.d  compact  to 

I'll  take  out  on  a  trip  when  the  president  travels,  Ihe  staff 

1 

l^  travels.   There  are  some  in  usage  by  l:he  Whii.e  House 

16  1  Communications  Agency,  and  their  area  of  responsibility.  I 

17  believe  they  provide  service  too. 

18  There  are  a  few  others  that  were  put  --  they  are  a 

19  lot  easier  to  install,  faster  io    install.  Tower  Commission, 

20  for  one,  we  had  one  put  in  for  them  and  a  few  othci  places 

21  that  they  needed  it  immediately. 

22  Basically,  a  good  90  percent  of  your  telephone 


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1  system  here  wif.hin  the  White  House  ia  ri<jht  there. 

2  Q     The  phone  ccimmunicati  ons  used  when  the  president 

3  travels,  I  assume  that's  all  within  the  WHC^  ambit? 

4  A     Yes,  that  is  their  primary  resporini  bi  J  i  ti  es  . 

b  Q     Are  there  phone  pagers  in  use  within  thu  compound? 

6  h  There  are  page  boys,  like  I  have  one  he;rc,  yes,  by 

7  the  White  House  Communications  Agency  issues  it.   It's 

8  basically  on  a  tone-type  arrangement,  where  you  have  a 

9  three-digit  dial  that  they  program  into  their  pager  per  se 

10  and  it  sc;nds  out  a  beeping  tone,  and  that  indivjdvial  knows  to 

11  call  to  the  White  House  Communications  number  and  £ind  out  ir 

12  it  was  paged  or  whatever. 

13  Q     Thu  ccjmputer  that  switches  those  over  is  also  a 
11  White  House  Communications  Age;ncy? 

15  A     White  House  Communications  Agency.   I  thvnk  it's  a 

16  Motorola,  I  believe  it's  provided  by  Motorola,  that's  who  the  , 

17  pagers  are  from. 

18  Q     The  maker  of  the  pager  is  Motorola  and  the  maker 

19  of  the  switch  is  Motorola,  but  the  operation  of  the  t^quipmcnt 

20  is  done  here  on  the  compound? 

21  A     Yes. 

22  Q     Are  there  any  digital  pagers  on  the  compound? 


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4  2 

1  -\  Not  that  I  know  oL'.   Again,  WHCA  would  have  l-.o 

2  answer  that;  if  they  have  sorae  new  updated  equipment,  T  am 

3  not  aware  oC  it. 
1  MR.  RAUL:   Let  the  record  show  that  Mr.  Natjy 

5  showed  Mr.  Holmea  the  page  boy  that  he  had  in  his  own  pockot, 

6  for  the  benefit  of  those  reading  the  record,  who  wonder  what 

7  wtj  ate  talking  about. 

8i  HY  MR.  HOLMKS: 

9]  Q  The   one   yoii    showed    is    not   a   digit')!    pager; 

10  correct? 

11  A     No. 

12  Q     It  doesn't  r«ad  out,  it  simply  gives  you  a  toncO 

13  A     It  gives  ycju  a  tone  and  you  would  call  into  the 

M  number,  the  WHCA  switchboard  number  to  find  out  who  is  paging 

15  y(5u. 

16  Q    They  would  tell  yovi  which  person  had  paged? 

17  A    Correct. 

Ifl  Q  In  order  to  do  that,  they  would  reference  the 

19  record.s  they  had  there? 

20  A     Yes,  they  would  have  to  have  records  of  who  is 

21  calling. 

22  Q     Hut  to  your  knowledge,  other  than  perhaps  WHCA, 


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there  are  no  digital  pagers? 

A     Some  of  the  telephone  company  people  on  the 
premises  have  their  own  witliin  the  system,  AT&T  and  Cf,e .       If. 
we  are  talking  about  staff  people,  not  that  I  know,  unless 
they  went  out  and  purchased  their  own  aomewhere. 

Q     If  they  purchase  their  own,  you  do  know  that  they 
diiln't  do  it  with  your  budget,  though;  right? 

A    That  is  correct,  that  is  corrtict.  if.    they 
purchased  their  own,  it  wouldn't  be  tod  through  our  tc;lephoii« 
switch,  jt  would  be  a  commercial  number  on  it  like  dny 
other. 

Q     Right.   So  i  (:  they  are  carrying  1  he-m  around,  :t's 
becausH  they  bought  theii-  own,  they  are  paying  their  own 
monthly  fees  and  they  are  using  it  for  whatever  business;  they 
have? 

Ttiat's  correct. 

Have  you  ever  seen  anybody  with  them? 

Other  than  the  telephone  people  that  I  deal  with. 


no. 


Q    Mr.  Nagy,  on  looking  for  records,  whether 
electronic  or  physical,  that  would  reflect  telephone  use. 
either  from  a  particular  or  from  particular  individuals  or 


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1  £rom  or  Cor  particular  stations  within  the  White  House 

2  compound,  I  want  to  ask  you  an  open-ended  question,  whether 

3  you  can  tell  me  whether  any  such  record  exists  anywhere, 

4  whether  physical  or  electronic. 

5  MR.  RAUL:   White  House  statt  or  executive 

6  president  of  the  White  House  staff? 

7  BY  MR.  HOr.MES: 

8  Q     Any  person,  group  or  agency  within  the  compound 

9  that  you  are  aware  of. 

10  A     Again,  I  am  not  aware  of  any,  other  than  the  ones 

11  that  T  have  mentioned. 

12  MR.  RA(1L:   Does  your  question  exclude  members  oT 
lil  the  First  Family  that  tl-\e  residents  —  are  there  any  record;; 
1  "1  for  any  members  of  the  First  Family?   I  don't  think  it's 

15  necessary  to  go  into  detail  if  there  are  such  rec:ords.   Hut 

16  if  you  can  teJ 1  Mr.  Holmes. 

17  THE  WITNEHS:   There  is  a  record  for  a  member  of 

18  the  First  Family.   Again,  this  is  an  operational  record. 

19  Secretarial  service,  when  they  are  going  through  the 

20  switchboard,  rely  on  the  secretarial  service. 

21  MR.  RAUL:   Off  the  record. 

22  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 


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1  MR.  RAOL:   We  ju3t  had  a  discussion  ol!C  t.h«  reconi 

2  regarding  certain  telephone  operations  provided  as  a  courtesy  • 

I 

3  Cor  members  of  the  First  Family.   Just  leave  it  it  that.  I 

4  BY  MR.  HOLMKS:  ' 

5  Q     Very  well.   Accepting  the  special  records  kept  Cor  . 

6  the  presidential  calls  and  for  the  First  Family  calls,  are  j 
7|  there  any  other  records  that  fit  the  description  that  I  asked  ] 
ol  yc3u  a  moment  ago?  ' 
9  A     No. 

10  Q    That  includes  whether  they  are  electronic  or 

IL  physical,  whether  they  are  kept  here  on  the  premises  cjr 

121  elsewhere?                                                    | 

i  ; 

1  il  A     Yes.                                               ; 

I4'l  MR.  HOLMFS:   I  don't  have  any  more  questions.       ^ 

15  MR.  TGTT :   No,  thank  you,  I  am  s.i  tis  C  ind. 

i 

If)  MR.  HAI.L:   I  do  not. 

17  MR.  RAtJI,:   Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  H(3lmes. 

18  MR.  INTRATFIR:   Off  the  record  Cor  a  minute. 

19  (Oiscussicjn  otf  the  record.) 

20  MR.  RAUL:   We  would  like  to  thank  the  Senate  and 

21  House  Select  Committees  for  this  <3pport\ini  ty  to  provide 

?.2  information  Cor  their  investigations,  and  formally  request  at 

rIIrs.  Inc. 


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46 


l-.his  i;ime  an  tjppo  rtun  i  ty  t-.o  review  Llie  transcript  oC 
Mr.  Nagy '  s  deposition  and  to  retain  a  copy  of  that 
deposition.   There  are  also  certain  areaa  Uiat  we  have 
discussed  with  Mr.  Holmes  that  have  been  testified  to  that  wtr 
will  review  during  the  course  ot  our  c:on.s  ideratii^n  o  t  tho 
transcript . 

(Whereupon,  at  1:20  p.m.,  the  deposition  was 
<:f)nc  luded  .  ) 


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CERTIPICAJg.  qa^BO'K^^  fttCt<['^  t'^REPORTER  47 


I,  WENDY  S.  COX ,   the  Officer  before  whom 

the  foregoing-  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby  certify 
that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the 
foregoing  deposition  was  duly  sworn  by  me;  that 
the  testimony  of  said  witness  was  taken  in  shorthand 
and  thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by  me  or  under 
my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a  true  record 
of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am 
neither  counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by 
any  of  the  parties  to  the  action  in  which  this 
deposition  was  taken;  and,  further,  that  I  am  not 
a  relative  or  employee  of  any  attorney  or  counsel 
emp loved  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor  financially 
or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcome  of  this  action. 


Notary  Pub Ixf  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


My  Commission  Expires    NOVEMBER  14,  1987 


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218 


C^CIAL  TRANSCRIPT 
PROCEEDINGS  BEFORE 


nNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 
CONGRESS  0?  THE  UKITBD  STATES 


ta  tha  Matter  of:  > 

) 
TESTIMONT  BEFORE  THE  SENATE  > 
SELECT  COMMITTEE  OR  SECRET  '  ) 
MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO  IRAK  AHO  ) 
TH£  NICARAGDAN  OPPOSITIOK        ) 


OEPOSITIOH  0?  SfilRLET  A»  NAPIEB. 


Vcsli^ascoit,  Jy,    C. 
April  10,  1987 


ALOe^SOM  F€PCf(ilNG 

'202)  628-9300 

20    F   STUEET,    N.W. 


cnpv  MA     ^         m s2 COPIES 


219 


UNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 
COhCRESS  OF  THE  UNITED  STATES 


1 

2 

3 

4 

--------  --------J 

'   In  th«  Natter  oft  t 

TESTinONY  BEFORE  THE  SENATE      ( 

SELECT  CONNITTEE  ON  SECRET       I 

NILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO  IRAN  AND  t 

THE  NICARA6UAN  OPPOSITION        t 


Washington*  O.C* 
Friaay*  April  I0«  1987 
The  Oaposltion  of  SHIRLEY  A.  NAPIER  was 
convanad  at  lt45  p.a.«  In  Room  220«  Hart  Senate  Office 
Buildingt  Washington*  D.C«*  the  witness  being  first  duly 
SMorn  by  JANE  u.  BEACH*  a  Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Coluabla*  and  the  proceedings  being  taken 
down  by  Stenoaash  by  Jane  W.  Beach  and  transcribed  under 
her  direction* 


AlOatSON  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC 
M  f  ST.,  N.W.,  WASHINGTON,  B.C.  20001     (202)  62S-9300 


220 


^    APPEARANCESt 

2  HARK  A.  BELNICK*  Esquir* 

3  CAMERON  H.  HOLMES*  Esquire 

*  VICTORIA  F.  NEURSE*  Esquire 
^  United  States  Senate 

*  Select  Coaaittee  on  Secret  military 

'  Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan 

'  Opposition 

^  Hashknfltont  O.C* 
10 

1^  KEM  H.  BALLEN*  Esquire 

''2  U.S.  House  of  Representatives 

^3  Washington*  O.C. 

14 

^5  6ERAR0  F.  TREANCRt  JR.*  Esquire 

^*  Venable*  Baetjer  and  Honard 

^7  Suite  900 

IB  2000  Corporate  Ridge 

19  ncLean*  Virginia  22102 

20  17031  74S-3500 

21  On  behalf  of  the  witness 
22 


ALDERSON  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC. 
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221 


1 

£JI.ll.I.E.li.: 

2 

QtBflaliiflo.fiii 

£xaiii 

3 

SHIRLEY    A.    NAPIER 

4 

By   Mr. 

Balnlck 

5 

e 

Exuiaus 

7 

tlailiS£.fltAfl2iliflO 

£aas 

8 

Extiifiil.llA« 

9 

1 

17 

10 

2 

17 

11 

3 

29 

12 

* 

33 

13 

9 

48 

14 

6 

92 

IS 

7 

118 

16 

8 

119 

17 

18 

19 

ao 

21 

22 

ALDBISOH  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC 
20  f  ST.,  N.W.,  WASHINGTON.  D.C  20001     (202)  62t-9300 


222 


^  HR.  BELNICKt   6ood  afternoon. 


Whereupon* 
*  SHIRLEY  A.  NAPIER* 

^   called  as  a  ttltncss  herein  by  counsel  for  the  Co«alttee* 
^   Mas  aKaained  and  testified  as  folloMSt 
^  EXAMINATION 

BY  HR.  BELNICKi 
Q    Ms*  Napier*  by  Mhoa  are  you  eaployed? 
A    Stanford  Technology  Trading  Croup 
International. 

Q     Soaetiaes  kno«n  as  STTGI7 
A    Right. 

Q     For  hOM  long  have  you  been  eaployed  by  that 
coapany 1 

A    Three  and  a  half  years. 

Q    You  were  hired  roughly  In  Noveaber  1983? 

A     Correct. 

19  Q    Nho  bired  you  for  that? 

20  A    Mr.  Secord. 

21  Q     Is  that  Richard  Secord? 

22  A  Yei. 


ALOERSON  REPORTING  COMPANY,  INC 
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223 


Q     Mould  you  trace  your  •■ployaent  at  STTGI  sinct 
2   your  hiring  In  1S83? 
3 


(HItntst  sworn.) 
BY  MR.  BELNICKt.  (RosuMing) 
Q    Mould  you  traco  your  •■ployaont  history  at 
Stanford  since  Octobar  *83? 

A     I  startad  in  Novaabar  '83.   I  Morkad  full-tlaa 
until  March  of  *e9«  at  Mhlch  tiae  I  want  to  part-tlae 
and  Ment  to  school*   Nay  of  *8S  through  tha  alddle  of 
Saptaabar  *89*  I  did  not  Mork  at  all  for  Stanford 
Technology • 

In  tha  alddle  of  Sapteaber  of  *85«  I  started 
part-tlae  and  continued  part— tiae  through  March  of  *86. 
April  of  *86  through  the  present*  I*ve  been  working  full 
tiae. 

Q    What  ware  your  Job  responsibilities  between 
*83  and  your  return  to  full  tiae  work  In  April  of  '86? 

A     I  started  out  as  a  secretary*   Me  were  setting 
up  tha  office*  so  I  set  up  the  flies*  did  soae  typing* 
answered  the  phones* 
21  When  I  returned  in  March  of  *86  full  tiae*  I 

^   was  hired  as  a  staff  assistant.   I  did  accounts  payable* 


ALOOISON  REPORTIM  COMPANY.  INC 
10  r  ST.,  N.W.,  WASHINGTON.  O.C  lOOOJ     (202)  62(-9]00 


224 


I  did  SON*  tra«*llng  with  tlr*  Secord*  I  ran  trrands*  I 
arranged  for  visas* 

Q    Arc  those  tha  general  areas? 

A     Ysst  general. 

Q    NoM*  you  say  you've  run  errands  for  Hr*  Secord 
since  Aprl  I  of  l<i86? 

A    Yes. 

°       0    Did  any  of  those  involve  visits  to  the  Old 
9 


Executive  Office  Building  In  Hashlngtont  D.C.7 
A     Yes. 

NR.  TREANORt   Excuse  ae.   Before  mo  go  any 
further*  I  wonder  If  this  aight  be  an  appropriate  time 
to  put  on  the  record  the  status  of  these  witnesses  with 
^*      regard  to  the  vote  by  your  Coaaittee  to  grant  them 
^^   laaunlty.   I  want  to  aaice  sure  that  the  record  Is  clear 

^^   before  we  get  knto  the  substantive  detail  of  their 
17 


test iaony. 

HR.  BELNICKt   The  Senate  Coaalttee  voted  at 
Its  business  aeetlng  on  April  2*  1S87*  to  coapei 
testiaony  fro*  both  of  these  witnesses*  Hs.  Napier  and 
Hs.  Corbin*  and  in  connection  therewith  to  apply  to  the 


^   court  for  use  iaaunity. 


AlOERSON  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC. 
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225 


Th«  application  Mat  filed  and  notlct  was  given 
to  tha  Attorney  General  and  to  the  Independent  counsel* 
I  believe*  on  April  3.   He  have  received  word  fro*  the 
Attorney  General  that  the  Attorney  General  mIII  not  ask 
for  the  additional  20  days.   He  have  reason  to  believe 
that  the  Independent  counsel  mMI  do  llkeitlse*  and  It  Is 
Senate  counsel's  intent  to  go  forward  then  with  the 
foraal  application  to  the  court  this  coaing  Monday* 
April  13th. 

Now*  I  understand  also*  Gerry*  that  there  Is 
an  laaunity  order  covering  both  of  these  witnesses  fro* 
Judge  Robinson. 

HR.  IREANORt   Me  were  served  with  orders 
covaring  both  Hs.  Mapier  and  Ms.  Corbin  on  April  the 
1st.   Those  orders  were  executed*  I  think*  on  March  the 
31st  by  Chief  Judge  Robinson  of  the  U.S.  District  Court 
In  Washington. 

I  Mouio  siapiy  lIKe  to  put  on  the  record*  In 
addition  to  that  fact*  ay  understanding  that*  although 
the  foraal  orders  sought  pursuant  to  the  vote  of  your 
Coaaittee  have  not  been  issued*  that  the  Intent  of  the 
^   Coaalttee  Is  to  extend  to  these  discussions  and  to  these 


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depositions    today   tho    sa*«   blanlttt    lanunlty    that   wiil    be 
'       foraaily    In    place    froa    your   Coaaittee    In   another    four   or 


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f  iwe  days. 

MR.  BELNICKt   Absolutely. 
BY  NR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 
Q    Ms.  Napiert  I  had  aslted  you  before  mo  had  that 
discussion  Mftether  you  had  run  errands  for  Hr*  Secord  to 


'   the  Old  Executive  Office  Building  In  Washington*  O.C.t 

and  I  believe  you  ansuered  yes.   Aa  I  correctt 
10 


A    Yes. 

Q    Uould  you  describe  those  errands! 

A     At  tiaes  I  Mould  tatte  envelopes  down  there.   I 
have  tahcn  the  encoding  aaohlnes«  broken  aachlnes*  down 
there  and  received  a  new  one  to  take  its  place.   And  at 
one  tiae  I  took  aoney  down  thcret  and  I  took  a  Bible 
dOMn  there. 

0    The  "there"  you've  been  referring  to  Is  the 
Old  Executive  Office  Building? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Old  you  see  anybody  in  the  Old  Executive 
Cffice  Building  on  those  occasionsT 


^       A    Whenever  I  took  soaething  down  there*  I  gave 


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It  to  FaMH  Hall. 

0     And  Mho  did  you  undarstand  Fawn  hall  to  be? 

A     Sacratary  to  Ollla  North. 

Q    Whan  did  you  aalta  thasa  trrands*  during  what 


yaar? 

A     *86. 


Q    Could  you  dascrlba  for  us  tha  occasion  in  1986 
Mhan  you  dellvarad  aonay  to  the  Old  Executive  Office 
Bui Iding? 

A     Bob  Button  was  trying  to  get  in  touch  with 
Bill  Cooper*  who  was  coaing  to  O.C.*  and  he  wanted  hi* 
to  stop  In  NIaai  and  pick  up  docuaants  or  papers*  and  he 
could  not  get  a  hold  of  Bill  Cooper.   And  fir.  Secord  was 
out  of  tOMn  and  I  didn't  have  auch  to  do*  so  I 
volunteered  to  go  down  and  pick  up  the  papers. 

Bob  said  ha  Mould  have  to  aake  a  phone  call. 
Ha  aada  his  phone  call*  caae  back*  said  It  was  okay  for 
■a  to  pick  It  up*  to  aake  ay  reservations*  and  that  he 
was  going  to  aake  another  phone  call. 
^  Hall*  I  aada  ay  reservations  and  he  caae  back* 

^      and  at  that  tiaa  ha  told  aa  that  I  would  be  picking  up 
^   S16»000  in  cash  froa  a  aan  who  worked  for  Southern  Air 


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Transport* 
2       Q     Al  I  right. 

^       A    And  Mh«n  I  picked  It  up  to  bring  It  back  to 
*   O.C.  and  to  take  It  to  Colonel  North  at  the  Old 
'   Executive  Office  Building. 

Q     Before  we  go  any  further*  Mho  was  Bob  Outton? 
^       A    Bob  Outton*  his  title  Is  staff  director  with 
^   Stanford  Technology  Trading  Croup  International. 
Q     So  he  Morked  In  the  saae  group  as  yout 
«       A    Yes. 
^^       Q    Mho  Is  Bill  Coopert 

^^       A    Bill  Cooper  is  a  pilot  that  Mas  down  in 
^^   Central  Aaerlca. 

Q    Do  yau  know  by  Mhoa  he  Mas  eaployedt 
A     I  doa*t  knoM  Mho  the  eaployer  Mas. 
^*       0    Did  nr.  Outton  tell  you  the  naae  of  the  aan 
^^   fro*  Southern  Air  Transport  that  you  Mere  to  see  in 
^B   southern  Florida! 

^^       A    He  did*  and  I  can't  reaeaber  the  aan's  naae. 
^   All  I  reaeaber  is  I  can  describe  hia*  and  he  said  he  Mas 
^^   the  controller  for  Southern  Air. 
^       Q    Oo  yau  recall  his  naae  being  Bill  Langdon? 


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A  Not  kt  Mas  not  Bill  Langdon.   H«  satd  I  alght 
■••t  Bill  Lansdont  but  that  anothar  gantlaaan  would  neat 

■a  and  It  Mould  not  ba  Bill. 

Q  Old  you  fly  to  Hlaai? 

A  Yes«  I  did. 

0  Oo  yau  recall  Mhan  this  Mas? 

A  It  Mas  August  26th. 

"        Q  19867 
9 


A     1986. 

Q    Tall  us  Mhat  happened  Mhan  you  went  to  NIaalt 
A     I  Bat  the  aan  at  the  gate  that  we  had  arranged 
and  he  had  on  an  SAT  ID  badge*  fit  the  description*  and 
he  recognized  ae  by  Mhat  I  mas  Moarlng.   Ue  Ment  to  a 
lounge.   He  ga«e  ae  a  Federal  Express  overnight 
envelope*  like  ar  8-1/2  by  11  size.   And  he  opened  It 
up*  shOMOd  ae  the  aoney. 

I  did  not  count  the  aoney  In  the  lounge 
because  It  Mas  croMded.   He  Ment  to  the  lounge.   I  Mcnt 
to  the  ladies  roca  and  counted  the  aoney*  and  there  was 

20  S16,000. 

21  Q     In  Mhat  denoalnatlon  bills? 

22  A     It  Mas  all  tMonties  and  under. 


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^  0  Uhat  did  you  do  after  you  counted  th«  aonoy? 
^  A  I  boarded  the  plane  back  to  O.C.*  to  Dulles. 
^       Q    Once  you  arrived  at  Dulles? 

*  A     I  left  ay  oar  there*   I  got  In  ay  car  and  went 

^  dOMn  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building.   I  tient  Into 

a 

the  17th  Street  entrance.   There  Mas  a  phone  theret  a 
house  phone.   1  called  Faun's  extension  and  told  her  I 

^   Mas  downstairs  Mith  a  package  that  I  thought  01  lie  Mas 

9 


Malting  for. 

Q    What  happened  then? 

A     I  Malt  a  foM  alnutes  and  she  caae  doMn  and 
took  the  Boney. 

0    Old  she  say  anything  to  you?   I*a  talking 
about  FsMn  Hall.   Old  she  say  anything  to  you  Mhen  she 
caae  dOMn? 


A    He  exchanged  a  few  Mords  and  she  said 


16 

^^  soaething.   It  Mas  either  "Old  you  go  to  diaal  and  get 

^^  this?"  or  "Old  you  go  dOMO  there  today?"   1  don't 

^®  reaeabcr  exactly  Mhat  It  Mas*  but  that  Mas  the  extent  of 

^  our  conversation. 

21       Q    What  did  you  do  then? 

^       A     I  Mont  to  ay  hoae*  bcoause  It  Mas  late  In  the 


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afternoon. 

0     Olo  you  report  to  Mr.  Dutton  that  evoning? 

A     No.   I  think  I  talked  to  hia  the  next  day.   I 
think  he  aight  have  called  the  office  and  asked  ae  about 
It*  and  I  told  h  la  I  hafl  delivered  It.   And  he  said 
"Thank  you  for  going  down  there." 

Q     Aside  froa  Mr.  Outton  and  the  people  who  ara 
In  this  rooa  today*  have  you  told  anyone  before  about 
this  delivery  of  aoney  to  Fawn  Hall  at  the  Executive 
Office  Bulldins  for  Ollle  North? 

A     I  told  By  husband  once  the  Independent  counsel 
had  ta  Iked  to  ae  . 

Q    Did  yoti  ever/talk  to  Hr.  Secord  about  It? 


A  Oh*  yes*  I  did  tell  Hr.  Secord  about  It. 

Q  When  Mas  that? 

1*        A  It  Mas  after  he  returned*  a  few  days  after  I 

^^   went  detin  there. 

''^       Q  What  did  you  say  to  hiat 

19       A  I  asked  hia  If  he  knoM  I  had  gone  down*  and 
^   yes*  he  Mas  aMare  that  I  had  gone  dOMn.   And  I  Just  told 

^''   hIa  about  Mhat  I  had  done. 


^        Q     Old  you  tell  hIa  you  had  picked  up  cash  and 


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d*llv*red  kt  to  Fawn  Hall  for  Colonel  North? 
A     Y«<. 

Q    Mhat  did  he  sayl 

A    He  Mas  concerned  I  had  gotten  Involved  in  It. 

Q    Oo  you  recall  what  he  said*  what  he  said  along 
those  I inesT 

A     I  thInK  he  was  a  little  upset  that  I  had  been 
ashed  to  do  It.   But  I  really  wasn*t  asKed.   I  had 
volunteeredt  not  knowing  what  I  was  going  to  do. 

He  was  a  little  upset  that  Bob  had  allowed  ae 
to  do  It  and  was  concerned  that  I  had  been  Involved  In 
It.   That  was  the  only  thing  he  expressed  to  ae. 

Q    Old  he  tell  you  what  the  cash  was  for*  Mr. 
Secord? 

A 

Q 


No*  he  did  not. 

Old  Mr.  Outton  tell  you  what  the  cash  was 


for? 


A  No*  he  did  not. 

Q  Has  anyone  to  this  day  told  you  what  the  cash 

was  for  that  you  were  asked  to  and  did  deliver  to  Fawn 
hall? 

A  No. 


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Q     Do  you  hav*  any  understanding  of  what  It  was 
for? 

A    No*  I  00  not. 

0     Did  you  ever  discuss  this  cash  dellvtry  with 
Mr.  Hakia? 

A    Not  I  don't  bclieva  I  did. 

Q    Ail  right.   Nowt  aslda  froa  tha  pcopla  Ma*va 
■antlonad  —  your  husband*  laMyer*  and  tha  others  In 
this  rooa  —  hava  you  discussad  this  cash  dallvcry  with 
anyone  else? 

A     No. 

MR.  IREANORt   Other  than  the  Independent 
counse I  3 


15 


BY  MR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 
Q     Including  the  Independent  counsel. 
A     No. 

Q    Nok*  there  were  other  occasions  In  1986  when 
you  aade  deliveries  or  picked  things  up  at  the  Old 
Executive  Office  Building*  correct? 
A    Correct. 

^  Q  Mas  there  ever  any  other  occasion  when  to  your 

^   knowledge  you  delivered  aoney  to  that  building? 


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A  Mo. 

Q  Mas  there  ever  any  occasion  Mhen  to  your 

knoMlooge  you  picked  up  aoneyf  including  cheeks* 

travelers  checks*  or  cash*  fro*  Fawn  Hall  at  that 


"   bulldlnfi? 

6 


A     No. 

^       Q    Was  there  any  other  occasion  apart  froa  the 
^   occasion  you*v«  Just  described  In  August  1986  Mhen  you 


9 

worked  for  the  United  States  governaent? 


delivered  what  ycu  knew  to  be  aoney  to  anybody  Mho 
10 


"        A    No. 
12 


Q    Let  se  shOM  you  soae  travel  records  that  you 
brought  Mith  you  today  and  ask  you  If  they  pertain  to 
the  trip  you  have  Just  described.   Let  ae  shOM  you  tMo 
docuaentst   August  29  —  these  are  the  saae.   Let's  go 
off  the  record  a  second. 

lOlscusslon  off  the  record. I 

HR.  BELNICKt   Back  on  the  record. 


16 


ns.  Napier*  let  ae  hand  you  the  docuaent  we've 


19 

^   noM  aarked  as  Napier  Exhibit  1.   Can  you  describe  what 

21   that  Isl 

22 


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(Th«  docuaant  reftrrad  to 
Mas  aarkcd  Napl«r  Oaposltlon 
Exhibit  No.  1  for 
Idant  If Icatlon. ) 
A     This  Is  a  copy  of  tha  Itlnarary  for  tha  flight 
dOMh  to  niaal  on  Hay  26th  of  1986. 
0    And  Naplar  Exhibit  2] 

(The  docuaant  rafarrad  to 
Mas  aarkad  Naplar  Daposltlon 
Exhibit  No.  2  for 
Idantif Icatlon.) 
A     This  Is  a  copy  of  the  itinerary  for  tha  return 
trip*  froa  Nla«l  to  Washington  on  August  26tht  1986. 

0     You  produced  both  of  these  docuaents  here  this 
Born  Ingt 

A     Right*  yes. 

Q  I  Manttd  to  ask  you*  referring  again  to  the 
SAT  representative  whoa  you  aet*  do  you  knoM  Mhat  his 
naae  Mas7 

^  A  I  did  knoM  his  naae.  I  had  It  Mritten  doMn  on 
^^  one  of  ay  pads  that  I  don't  have  any  aore.  I  don*t  know 
^   whether  I  Mould  recognize  his  naae  If  I  saw  a  list  of 


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^   SAT  caployacs  or  not* 

^       Q     Hod  yo(t  soon  Ma  boforo  that  occasion? 

^       A    No. 

Q    Havo  you  ovor  soon  hi*  againt 

A     No. 

Q    Rr .  81  II  Coopor  — 

MR.  BALLENS   Doos  tho  naao  Robort  Mason  coao 
^   to  alno? 

*  THE  UITNESSt   Robort  Hasont   No. 

BY  MR.  BELNICKt   CRosuaIng) 
Q    Had  you  any  dealings  mIUi  Bill  Coopor  boforo 
August  5t  19863 

A    No*  1  nowor  saw  tho  aan.   I  think  I've 
answorod  tho  phono  whon  ho*s  called  once  or  twleo* 
Q    Havo  you  ovor  soon  hIaT 
A    No. 

Q    Oo  you  knoM  Mhat  his  business  Mas  with  your 
coapany? 

A    No*  other  than  I  know  ho  Mas  a  pilot  working 
in  Central  Aaorlca. 

Q    Hhoro  In  Central  Aaorlca*  did  you  knoM? 


^       A    El  Salvador*  Nicaragua. 


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1 

Q 

2 

A 

3 

0 

4 

A 

S 

0 

6 

Mh«r«    1 

7 

A 

8 

Q 

9 

A 

10 

that  M< 

It 

0 

12 

A 

13 

Q 

14 

A 

IS 

Q 

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that? 

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A 

18 

Q 

19 

A 

20 

Q 

21 

A 

22 

Q 

Mhtn  h*  calledt  to  Mho*  did  h«  ask  to  spaakT 

Bob  Outton.    * 

!•■  sorry? 

To  Bob  Outton. 

HoM  die  you  knoM  Mr.  Cooper  nai  a  pilot  and 
Mhara  ht  was  werklngT   Old  Hr.  Outton  tall  you  that? 

Yis*  he  did. 

Is  that  all  you  knoM  about  Bill  Coopar? 

Qthar  than  the  plana  crash.  Ha  nas  tha  ona 
that  was  killed  in  the  plane  crash  down  there. 

Oo  you  recall  when  that  Mas? 

It  Mas  October  or  Noveaber. 

Old  nr.  Hasenfus  ever  call  the  office? 

He  has  called  one  tiae. 

And  Mhen  in  relation  to  October  1S86  Mas 

He  has  called  Mithin  the  past  aonth. 

Ulthfn  the  past  aonth? 

Yes. 

With  MhOB  did  he  ask  to  speak? 

Bob  Outton. 

Mr.  Outton  is  still  coalng  to  Mork  at  STTCIt 


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A  Yes. 

Q  And  so  Is  Mr.  Sccord? 

A  Yes. 

0  And  th«y*v«  bt«n  ther*  together  the  last  aonth 
at  various  tiaasi 

A  Yes*  sure* 

Q  While  you  and  Ms*  Corbin  Mere  there? 

A  Yes. 

a  When  Mas  the  last  tiae  Hr.  Hakia  was  In  the 

office  to  your  knoMledge? 

A  I  think  aaybe  October*  Septeaber*  October* 

Noweaber*  around  in  that  area. 


^*       Q    Of  19861 

^*        A     1986,  yes. 
15 


Q    You're  still  eapioyed  at  STTCI? 
A    Yes. 

Q    NoM  let's  talk  about  the  other  errands  you  ran 
for  nr.  Secord  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building. 
You  said  there  Mcre  occasions  Mhen  you  delivered 
envelopes.   This  Is  the  occasions  other  than  on  August 


^^   1986  Mhen  you  delivered  the  cash. 


There  nere  other  occasions  Mhen  you  delivered 


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•nvelopest  correct? 
A     Yes. 

Q     About  how  aany  of  those  occasions  Mart  there 
during  1986? 

A    A  half  a  dozen  to  a  dozen  tiaes. 

0     Could  you  describe  the  envelopes  that  you 
del  I vcred? 

A     Host  of  the  tlae*  It  was  Just  a  letter  sized 
plain  Mhite  envelope. 

Q     Business  size? 

A    You  knoHt  like  not  the  personal  stationery 
sizet  but  the  letter  size* 

Q    Who  gave  you  the  envelopes  to  deliver? 

A     Host  of  the  tiae*  froa  Hr.  Secordv 
occasionally  froa  Bob  Outton. 

0     Hok  long  In  advance  of  the  delivery  did  either 
fir.  Dutton  or  Mr.  Secord  give  you  the  envelope? 

A     Post  of  the  tiae  It  Mas  Just  to  hand  ae  the 
envelope  and  Just  tell  ae  to  take  It  downtown. 


^        Q     kai  the  envelope  bulky? 


A     No. 


22  Q  What    did    It    feel    like    It    had    inside    of    It? 


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^       A    A  letttr«  paper* 

Q    On  each  of  those  occasions  whan  you  dallvarad 
^   such  an  envelopa*  did  you  deliver  It  to  Fawn  HallT 
*  A    Yes.   I  think  there  Mas  one  tiae  that  a  girl 

'   by  the  naae  of  Barbara  aet  ae  downstairs. 
Q    Do  you  recall  her  last  naae? 
A    NO. 

0    Have  you  aver  heard  the  naae  Barbara  Brownt 
A    No. 

Q    HoM  Mould  you  arrange  to  aeet  Fawn  Hall  or  In 
the  one  case  Barbara  Brown  or  Barbara? 

A     I  would  take  ay  car*  I  would  call  her  before  I 
leave  the  offlcet  call  her  and  say  that  I  would  be  there 
In  20  alnutes.   Soaatlaes  Hr.  Secord  would  tell  ae  to 
take  his  car*  because  he  has  a  car  phone*  and  I  would 
call  her  whan  I  got  within  f-lve  alnutes  of  the  Executive 


^^   Office  Bui  Idlns. 

''^  And  thtn*  soaetiaes  if  I  had  to  wait  I  would 

19 


call  her  froa  downstairs  and  tell  her  I  was  down  there. 

Q     And  then  Fawn  Hall  would  siaply  take  the 
enve  lope? 

A     Yes. 


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0    And  on  th«  occasion  Mhan  Barbara  took  It*  did 

^   she  give  you  anything  In  return? 

3 

A     I  think  I  aay  have  picked  up  one  of  the 

encoding  aachlaes  froa  her« 

0    ^roB  Barbara? 

A    Froa  Barbara. 

Q    And  an  tha  occasions  uhon  you  delivered  the 
Mhlte  envelopes  to  Fawn  Hallt  did  she  give  you 
anything? 

A    There  «as  not  always  an  exchange.   There  were 
tiaes  that  I  was  sent  down  there  to  pick  up  soaethlng* 
but  not  every  fclse  I  ttent  down  there  did  I  get  soaethlng 
In  return. 

Q    Soaetiaes  you  did*  soaetlaes  you  didn't? 

A    Soaetlaes  she  would  have  soaethlng  for  ae  and 
I  would  have  soaethlng  for  her. 

Q    Old  Fawn  Hall  —  on  the  occasions  when  Fawn 
Hall  gave  you  soeethlng*  was  it  always  the  saae  thing? 

A    No. 

Q    Tell  us  what  she  gave  you? 
21        A     There  were  tiaes  where  I  would  get  an  envelope 
^   that  was  —  they  used  tapes*  code  tapes  for  the  encoding 


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1 

2 
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7 
8 
9 
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12 
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IS 
16 
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20 
21 
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■achlne*  and  th«y  Mere  Just  In  a  hard  plastic  holder* 
and  I  could  tall  what  those  were  fro*  the  bulk  of  the 
package  and  the  feel  of  it* 

I  have  picked  up  Just  a  plain  envelope  before* 
and  also  an  encoding  •achlne* 

Q     Aside  froa  the  envelopes  that  you  Knew  had  the 
encoding  aaehlne  tapes*  could  you  tell  what  was  in  the 
other  envelope  or  envelopes  that  you  received  froa  Fawn 
Hall? 

A    Ho. 

Q    Has  anyone  to  this  day*  anyone*  ever  told  you 
what  was  In  any  of  the  envelopes  that  you  delivered  to 
the  Old  Executive  Cfflce  Building? 

A    No. 

Q    Has  anyone  ever  told  you  to  this  day  what  was 
In  any  of  the  envelopes  you  received  froa  the  Old 
Executive  Office  Building*  apart  froa  those  which  had 
the  encoding  tapes? 

A    No. 

Q    Have  you  ever  —  have  you  discussed  those 
deliveries  with  flH  anyone  other  than  your  lawyer*  the 
Independent  counsel*  your  husband*  the  people  here 


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today? 

A     No. 


29 


Q    Aside  froa  th«  S16*000  dollvery  Mhlch  you 
doserlbodt  Us*  Naplor*  noro  you  Involved  tn  any  other 
larga  cash  transaction  while  you*ve  been  eaployed  at 
STTCI7 

A    Yes. 

0    Old  that  occur  on  or  about  March  26tht  19867 
A    Yes. 

Q    Could  you  describe  for  us  nhat  happened  at 
that  tlae? 

A    Hr.  Hakla  was  In  the  office  and  had  ae  call 
the  bank  to  sec  If  a  wire  transfer  had  coae  Into  his 
personal  account  at  First  Aaerlcan.   And  It  had*  and  he 
gave  ae  two  checks  to  type  out.   He  asked  for  one  to  be 
Bade  out  —  both  of  thea  to  be  aade  out  to  casht  one  In 
^^   the  aaount  of  S8«000  and  one  In  the  anount  of  S7»000. 
IB  MR.  BELNICKt   Would  you  stop  for  a  aoaent 

''^   while  I  ask  the  reporter  to  aark  this  as  the  next 
^   exhibit. 

21  (The  docuaent  referred  to 

22  was  aarked  Napier  Deposition 


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12 


13 


14 


15 


16 


18 


19 


20 


26 


Exhibit  NO.  3  for 
Identification.) 
BY  MR.  BELNICKt   (RcsuBing) 
Q    Dots  that  docuBtnt  contain  photocoplas  of  th* 
tMo  chocks  to  cash  to  uhich  you  havo  Just  testlflad? 
A     Vet. 

Q    Both  datod  March  26th*  i986t 
A     Y«S. 
Q    Ono  In  tho  aaount  of  S8«000»  th«  othar  In  tha 


10 

■  ■our 

A  Yes. 


aaount    of    S7*0001 

11 


Q  Could  you  turn  to  tha  second  page  of  the 

exhibit.  Mould  you  describe  what  that  Is7 

A  It's  ay  signature  where  I  endorsed  the  checks 

so  that  I  could  cash  thee. 

0  And  did  you  produce  these  two  pages  this 


^^   Borning? 


A    Yest  I  did. 

Q    Mr.  Hakia  asked  you  on  March  26th  to  draw  up 


these  checks? 


2^       A    Right. 

^       Q    You  did*  and  then  what  happened? 


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A    He  ashed  ae  to  go  to  two  different  branches  of 
First  Aeerlcan  and  cash  thei. 

Q    That's  the  First  Aaerlcan  Bank  of  VIrglniat 

A    Correct. 

0    UMoh  branches? 

A     I  iieiit  to  the  Vienna  branch  and  Tysons 
Corner. 

Q     And  you  cashed  thc«T 

A    And  I  cashed  thea*  and  brought  the  aoney  back 
to  the  office  and  gave  it  to  hia* 

Q    Did  he  leave  the  next  dayT 

A    He  left  that  night  or  the  next  day  on  a  trip. 

0    Oo  you  knoM  whereT 

A     I  doa*t  knoM  for  sure.   I  think  It  aight  have 
been  London  or  Geneva. 

Q    All  right. 

A     It  was  an  overseas  trip. 

Q    Did  you  —  did  Nr.  Hakia  tell  you  what  he 
needed  the  cast*  for  on  that  day? 


^       A    No*  bo  did  not. 


Q    Old  you  express  any  concern  to  hia  about  this 


^   transaction? 


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A    Y«Sf  b«caus«  I  was  s«al-aMar*  of  a  law  that  if 
you  cashed  a  check  over  910*000  you  ware  supposed  to 
report  It  or  fill  out  a  fom.   And  he  said  that  that 
didn't  apply  to  this  because  each  check  Mas  not  over 
SXOtOOOt  I  had  nothing  to  Morry  about* 

Q    Has  anyone  else  in  the  office  on  the  day  that 
you  cashed  these  checks  and  brought  It  back  to  Mr* 
XaklaT 

A    Mr.  Secord  Mas  there*  Joan  Mas  there*  and  to 
the  best  of  ay  acaory  Toa  Clines  and  Rafael  Quintero 
Mere  both  In  tlie  office  that  day. 

0    Were  they  present  Mhen  you  handed  Mr*  Hakia 
the  cash  or  discussed  any  part  of  the  transaction  with 
hia? 

A    I  don't  believe  they  Mere  right  there  In  his 
office  Mhen  I  gave  the  aoney  back.   I  think  they  Mere 
soaewhere  In  the  offices. 

Q    Old  you  knoM  Mho  Toa  Clines  Mas? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Who  was  hat 

A    He's  a  friend  of  Mr.  Secord's. 

Q    Old  he  call  the  office  frequently? 


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^  A  Yes. 

2 

Q  Old   ha   COM*    In    frcqutntiyf 

'  A  tet. 

Q  Oo  you  know  what  business  he  had  with  Mr. 
'   Secord? 


6 

Mith   hi*. 


A  No«    !•«•   iievar    been    told    what    business    he    had 

7 


Q  Old  be  ever  ask  you  to  place  calls  while  he 

^   was  In  the  offleet  "he"  being  Hr.  Toa  Cllnes* 
^°       C-l-l-n-e-s? 

^^        A  Yes*  ha  has. 

12 

Q  And  where  did  he  ask  you  to  place  calls? 

A  To  Portugal. 

Q  To  where?   To  anybody  you  can  recall  In 


13 


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15 


16 


17 


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Portuga I? 


A    His  naae  Is  Jose  Carnal  I. 


Q     6-a-r  ~ 


A     J-o-s-e  C-a-r-n-e-l-r 


Q     In  what  city  in  Portugal? 


^       A    That  I  don't  know*  because  I  Just  use  a 
^   country  code.   I *■  not  even  sure  I  used  a  city  code. 
^       Q     Is  his  naae  on  your  roiodex  in  the  office? 


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Carn«ll*  I  b«li«ve  to. 
Do  you  still  have  that  rolodax? 
Yes. 

MR.  BELNICKt   I  request  that  mc  get  a  copy  of 
tha  rolodex  cards  fros  ns.  Napier* 
RR.  IREANORI   Yes. 
MR.  BELNICKt   Okay. 
BY  HR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 
Did  Rr.  Cllnes  ewer  ask  you  to  call  anyone 


1 

A 

2 

Q 

3 

A 

4 

5 

tha    ro 

6 

7 

8 

9 

Q 

10 

else? 

11 

A 

12 

nould 

13 

Q 

14 

A 

15 

Q 

16 

A 

17 

Q 

18 

A 

19 

Q 

Oh*  on  occasion  he*s  been  In  the  office*  he 
nould  ask  ae  to  call  Rafael. 

Qu  lntcro7 

Quintero. 

Uhera  did  you  reach  Mr.  Quinterot 

In  Hiaal. 

Anyplace  else? 

No*  I  think  that  Mas  It. 

Did  nr.  Quintero  coae  into  the  office  froa 
^   tiaa  to  tlael 
2^       A    Yes*  he  did. 
^       Q    Hhoa  did  ha  coae  In  to  sea? 


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AH*  Mould  COB*  In  to  s««  Bob  Dutton  or  Hr. 
^   Socord. 

Do  you  knoM  what  Hr.  Qulntoro*s  business  was? 


Q 

A     No. 


Q    Oo  yau  knoM  Mhat  tho  nature  of  his  dealings 
Mere  Mith  Mr.  Secord  or  your  coapany  or  Nr.  DuttonT 

A    Not  I  has  never  told.   I  assuaed  he  had 
soaething  to  do  Mith  the  operations  In  Central  Aaerlca. 

Q    To  raturn  to  the  story  you  Mere  telling  us 
concerning  the  S19*000  transaction  on  Inarch  26tht  19e6t 
you  ■entloned  a  Mire  transfer  of  the  SlSvOOO  into  Mr. 
Hakla's  accountt  Mhlch  you  oonflraedt  correct? 

A    Yes. 

0    Oo  you  knoM  Mher*  that  Mired  aoney  caae  froa? 


^S        A     I  believe  It  caae  fro*  SMitzerland. 


31 


a     And  on  Mhat  do  you  base  that? 

A     Hell*  that's  Mhere  aost  of  our  aoney*  Mhen  Me 
got  Mire  transfers  Int  that's  Mhere  aost  of  It  caae 
froa.   And  I 'a  assuaing  that  caae  —  I  don't  have  it  to 
^   look  back  on  right  noM.  the  Mire  transfer  slip.   But  I'a 
2^   assuaing  that's  nhere  It  caae  froa. 
22       Q     Oo  you  knoM  If  that  Mire  transfer  slip  still 


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existsi 

A  I  thtnk  it  does. 

Q  Mh«r*  hould  It  be? 

A  It  would  be  in  Nr.  Hakle's  personal  records. 

Q  Where  are  they? 

A  There  are  soae  in  the  office* 

Q  At  STTCI? 

A  Yes. 

Q  Where  are  the  others? 

A  He  aay  have  It.   It  alght  have  been  soaething 

I  Bailee  to  hi*  If  he  wasn't  around  the  office*  but 

probably  It  should  bo  in  with  his  personal  stuff  there. 

Q  was  there  a  place  you  personally  aalled  things 
to  Mr.  Hak  la  at  Mhen  he  wasn't  at  the  office? 

A  Yes. 

0  Where  was  that? 

A  In  his  hoae  in  Los  Catos*  California. 

Q  Oo  you  reaeaber  the  address? 

A  I  know  i t ' s ^^^^^^^H .   I  don't  reaeaber  the 
nuaber*  but  I  knew  it'sl 

Q  All  right.   Is  it  on  your  rolodex? 

A  Yes. 


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MR.  KELNICKt   Would  you  «arK  this  next 
docu««nt  as  hap i or  4* 

(The  docuaent  referred  to 
Mas  aarked  Napier  Deposition 
Eahlbit  No.  4  for 
Identification.) 
BY  HR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 
Q    Shirleyt  let  ae  hand  you  the  docuaent  that's 
noM  been  aarked  as  Napier  Exhibit  4.   Could  you  describe 
Mhat  It  Is? 

A    This  Is  uhat  I  had  written  up  about  the  two 
cash  transactions  that  I  did* 

Q     The  119*000  and  the  S16*000  transactions  that 
you  testified  about  today*  correct? 
A    Correct. 

^'       Q    About  Mhan  did  you  prepare  this  docuaent? 
A     It's  been  about  three  neeks  ago. 
0     Is  that  your  signature  at  the  bottoa? 
A    Yes*  It  Is. 

0     And  did  you  put  that  signature  on  at  ay 
request  earlier  today? 
22        A     Yes*  I  did. 


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0  And   datad    It    today? 

A  Yei*    I    did. 

Q  But  It  was  prepared  about  three  weeks  ago? 

A  Yes. 

^       Q  Qkay.   At  whose  —  was  It  at  soaeone's  request 

^   that  you  prepared  this? 

A  No.   I  did  this  to  help  ny  attorney  with  some 

o 

things  that  we  had  gone  over. 

a 

Q    Aside  fro*  your  attorney*  Independent  counsel 
^°   and  ust  have  you  showMl  this  docuaent*  Napier  Exhibit  4* 
to  anyone  else? 


«  A  NO. 

^^  Q  Have  you  over  shown  It  to  Nr.  Secord? 

1*  A  NO. 

15 


Q    Have  you  told  Mr.  Secord  that  you  were 
preparing  such  a  docuaent? 
A    No. 


0    How  about  Mr.  Hakia  or  Hr.  Outton? 


18 

19  A     NO. 

20  Q    Now  let's  talk  for  a  aoaent  about 

21  Switzerland.   Vou  said  that  aost  of  the  wire  transfers 

22  caae  fro*  Switzerland.   Oo  you  recall  the  naae  of  any 


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^   banks  or  accouats  in  SMitzarland  froa  which  tha  Mira 
^   transfars  orlgtnatad? 
'       A    CSF. 

a    CSFt  t  Ika  "Frank"* 

A     Ya*. 

Q    Any  al sat 

A     I  think  Ma  had  soaa  froa  Cradit  Suisse.   That 
Mas  It. 


'       Q    Did  you  knoM  what  CSF  Has? 

^®       A     I  assuBS  It  was  a  banking  institution 
11 


Q    Apart  froa  that*  did  you  hava  any  Inforaatlon 
about  It? 

A    No. 

Q    Old  you  knoM  If  It  had  any  ralationship  to 
your  coapany  or  Ifr.  Secord  or  Hr.  hakia? 

A    No*  othar  than  tha  aonay  Just  coaing  through 
thara. 

Q    Oo  you  rocall  hoM  auch  aonay  In  total  caaa  In 
froa  CSF  during  1966? 


^       A    Not  total  I  don*t.   I  can  raaaabar  soaa  of  tha 


Mire  transfars*  but  not  a  total  of  thea. 


^       Q    What  asounts  do  you  racall  coaing  In? 


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^        A    On*  thing  that  Mas  a  total  was  that  m«  had  a 
^   SZOOvOOG  latter  of  credit  with  CSF*  and  mo  received 
SllOtOOO  of  that  overt  I  believet  *e5  and  *a6. 

Q    And  Mhcre  was  that  deposited*  do  you  knoM? 
A     To  First  Aaerican  Bank. 
0    To  Mhose  account? 
A     The  STTCI. 
^       0    Do  you  recall  any  other  Mire  transfer  aaounts 
'   fro*  CSF? 

A    Me  received  S70»000  that  caae  through  CSF*  and 
it  Mas  referenced  "Udall*" 
0    When  Mas  that? 

A     I  believe  that  Mas  In  late  suaaer*  spring  of 
*86. 

Q    And  Mhat  did  you  do  Mith  that? 
A    Hall*  that  autoaat leal ly*  on  a  wire  transfer* 
deposits  Into  your  account* 

Q    The  saae  account  at  First? 
A    Yes. 
^       Q    Do  you  recall  any  others? 

21  A     There  Mas  one  in  the  aaount  of  58*000  and  I 

22  believe  700  dollars*  that  was  in  the  spring  or  early 


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1 

2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 

^2   KITCO. 

Q    Do  you  knoM  what  KITCO  Masf 

A     Th«  snly  thing  I  was  told  about  KITCO  is  that 
rapr«s«nt«d  S90*000  consulting  f««  for  *8$  and  S90«000 
consulting  f«a  for  *86. 

Q    BoyoMd  that*  you  don't  knoM  Mhat  KITCO  Is  or 
Has? 

A     No. 

Q    Any  othor  mItc  transfars  froa  CSF«  do  you 


suaaor  of  *86* 

Q    Also  M«nt  Into  tha  First  Aaarlcan  account? 

A    Yes*  ccrract. 

0    Has  thtra  a  rafaranee  on  that? 

A     I  ballavo  It  Mas  rofarenced  "AOC." 

Q    Okay. 

A     Ha  ractlvad  —  I  balleva  this  was  In  tha  fall 
of  '85*  but  possibly  tha  fall  of  '86*  !'■  not  sura*  It 
Mas  S9S*979  fro  KITCO*  K-I-T-C-Q. 

Q    Hhara  Mas  that? 

A     That  caaa  through  CSF*  and  It  Mas  rafaranced 


racallt 


^       A     I  ballc«a  Ma  recalvad  ona  froa  Laka 


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^  Resources.   I  don't  reaeaber  the  aaount  and  I *■  not 

^  absolutely  positive  It  was  fro«  Lake*  but  that's  In  ay 

^  aind  for  soae  reason. 

*  Q     Is  there  a  date  In  your  alnd  attached  to  the 

^  Lake  Resources  transfer*  approxlaately  when? 

^        A     ko. 

^        Q     What  was  ADC7 
8 

'  Corporation. 

^^       Q    Did  that  coapany  to  your  knoMledge  have  any 
11 


A     I  believe  It  stood  for  Ar-F«M  Developaent 


dealings  Mith  Sccord  or  STTCIT 
^^       A    The  only  one  I  reaeaber  talking  about  that 

^^  would  have  been  l*r.  Haklat  and  again  It  Mas  for 

^*  consulting. 

1^       Q    Apart  froa  the  one  ADC  transfer  you've 

^^  described*  do  you  recall  any  others? 
17       A     I  don't  recall  any  offhand. 

IB       Q     Okay.   Wlllard  Zucker*  do  you  know  that  naae? 
1^       A    Yes*  I  do. 
^       0    Uhe  do  you  know  hia  to  be? 
21       A     Associated  with  CSF. 
^       Q    And  how  do  you  know  that? 


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^        A     Because  I  sent  telexes  to  hi*  at  CSF*  I've 

^  placed  calls  to  hia  at  CSF  for*  I  believe*  Mr.  Hakln  to 

^  speak  to  hia. 

*  Q  Froa  Mlioa  Mere  the  telexes  that  you  sent  Mr. 
^  Zucker*  Hakia  or  Secord  or  both? 

*  A    Usually  Hr.  Hakla. 

'       Q    Do  you  recall  the  telexes  concernedt 

/\ 

*  A    Host  of  thea  Mere  In  reference  to  collecting 
^  Boneys  or  having  scaething  to  do  Mitti  aoney* 

''°       Q    Asking  Mr.  Zucker  to  collect  aoney? 

It       A    tos*   At  soa*  point  they  had  an  arrangeaent 

'^  that  CSF  Mould  collect  funds  froa  people  that  mo  Mere 

^'  doing  consulting  for*  and  they  uould  take  like  a  one 

^*  percent  coaalsslon  froa  Mhatevcr  they  collected. 

15       Q  Anything  olse  you  recall  about  those  telexes? 

«       A    Ho.   Host  of  thea*  It  uas  Just  Manting  to  fcnoM 

^^  Mhere  the  aoney  Mas  froa  —  say  like*  you  knoM*  that 

^*  $10*000  froa  Udall*  It  Mas  Just  a  follou-up  telex  to  see 

^'  Mhere  the  aoney  Mas  at  that  point*  Mhen  mo  could  expect 

20  It. 

21  Q    Old  you  knoM  If  Hr.  Udall  had  any  connection 

22  Mith  Hr.  Secord  or  your  coapany? 


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''  A  Other    than  having   stationary  printad  at   ona 

^       tla«*    that's   all. 

^       0  Who  ha<l  tha  stationary  requastad? 

*  A  It  Mas  althar  at  Mr.  Hahl**s  or  Hr.  Sacord*s 

^   raquast  that  Me  had  stationary  printad. 

'       Q  Thay  asKad  you  to  hava  stationary  printad  for 

^   Udall? 

^       A  Actual  lyt  I  ballava  they  asked  Joan  to  do  tha 

'   Udall. 

Q  The  stationery  Mas  kept  In  your  offices? 

A  Yes. 

Q  Old  you  ever  use  It? 

A  No. 

Q  Okay*   Do  you  know  the  naaa  Prince  Bandarf 

A  Yes. 

0  And  who's  he? 

'*7       A  He's  the  aabassador  of  Saudi  Arabia. 

^B       Q  And  hOM  do  you  knoM  that  naae? 

IB       A  Hr.  Secord  has  talked  about  hia  on  occasion  as 

^   being  a  personal  friend. 

2'*       Q  Old  Mr.  Seoord  ever  ask  you  to  aaka  calls  to 


^   Prince  Bandar? 


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A  I  b«lt«v«  I  plac«d  on*  call  to  th«  •■bassy« 

0  Do  y«u  recall  Mh«n  that  mm%1 

A  I  think  that  was  In  the  first  yaar  that  I 

Morkad  for  hla> 

^       Q  During  1S8  — 

*       A  Probably  *84. 

^       Q  Mas  that  tha  saaa  yaar  Mhan  you  got  Mr.  Sacord 

^   a  visa  to  Saudi  Arabia? 
0 


A    Yas. 


Q 


And  did  you  gat  Hr*  Hakia  a  visa  to  Saudi 


''^  Arabia  In  19e4«  do  you  racallt 

^2       A     1  bolicv*  I  did. 

■•^       Q    Did  Princ*  Bandar  avar  coaa  Into  your  —  has 

■"*  ha  avar  coaa  Into  your  office  that  you're  awaref 

15  A     No. 

16  Q    But  Hr.  Secord  has  been  to  the  enbassy? 

17  A     I  don*t  knoM  that  for  a  fact. 

18  Q  Okay.   Did  Nr.  Secord  ever  tell  you  that  ha 
''^  had  been  to  the  tabassy? 

20  A     I  think  the  only  thing  he's  ever  said  Is  that 

21  he  net  ulth  Bandar.   Where  they  aet  1  don't  know. 

22  Q    oo  yeu  know  If  Hr.  Secord  was  invited  to  the 


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^   ««bassy  In  ecnnactlon  with  King  Fahd*s  visit  to  the 
^   Unlt«d  States  In  lS85t 
^       A    Ysst  he  was. 

*  Q    To  a  reception? 

'       A    I  eon*t  knoM  Mhether  he  went  to  the 

^   reception,   ^e  Mcnt  to  the  dinner  at  the  J«li*  Harriott. 

'   He  Mas  invited  to  that. 

Q    You  ■entloned  before  delivering  a  Bible  to  the 
^   Old  Executive  Office  Building. 

A    Yes* 

Q    When  was  that? 

A    That  Has*  I  believe*  in  Septeaber  or  October 
of  *86. 

Q    Would  you  describe  for  us  hoM  that  happenedt 

A    nr.  Hakia  was  in  town*  and  he  and  Mr.  Secord 
had  been  out  of  the  office*  returned*  had  the  Bible. 
They  uere  trying  to  find  an  appropriate  inscription  for 
^^   the  Bible*  and  then  he  asked  ae  to  deliver  it  to  the  Old 
^9   Executive  Office  Building*  to  give  It  to  Fawn. 

20  Q    To  Fawn  Mall? 

21  A    Yes. 

22  Q    Old  Nr.  HakIa  ask  you  If  you  knew  a  suitable 


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Inscr Ipt Ion? 


2  A  Y«st    h«   did. 

^       0    Mhat  did  you  t«ll  his? 

*  A     I  told  hia  no*  I  didn't. 


S 


Q    Old  he  tall  you  tho  purposo*  what  tha  BIbIa 


Max  going  to  be  used  fort  Mho  It  Mas  going  to  be  given 

'  to? 

^       A    That  It  Mas  going  to  Iranian  friends. 

'       Q    Okay.   And  Mhat  did  you  do  Mith  It? 
'*"       A     I  put  the  Bible  In  a  broMn  envelope  and  sealed 

^^  it  up*  Mrite  FaMn's  naae  on  the  front*  and  "NSC*"  took 

^^  It  dOMn  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building*  and  Ment 

^3  in  and  left  It  In  tha  sail  rooa.   And  then  I  called  FaMn 

^*  and  told  her  that  It  uas  doun  there. 
15       Q    And  did  you  Malt  for  her  to  pick  it  up? 
1*       A    Mo. 

17       Q    NoM*  have  you  described  for  us  now  all  the 

^^  occasions  when  you  either  delivered  or  picked  up 

^^  soaething  at  tHe  Old  Executive  Office  Building? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  0    Did  you  ever  deliver  anything  to  FaMn  Hall 

22  anyMhera  other  than  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building? 


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A     No. 

Q    Evtr  racciv*  anything  froa  Fawn  Hall  or  froa 
^   Barbara  anyMhare  othor  than  at  the  Old  Exacutlva  Office 
*      Bulldingi 


A     No. 


*       Q    Hon  about  deliveries  to  Barbara  other  than  at 
^   the  Old  Executive  Office  Buildingi   Any? 


^       A    No. 

9 


Q    Oo  you  know  the  naae  Olastead? 
A    Yes. 


Q    Who  It  he? 


^^       A    He*s  —  he  caae  to  our  office  a  fet*  tiaest  and 

^^  one  of  the  trips  I  aade  Mith  Hr.  Secord  to  Hlaalt  nr. 

^*  Olastead  was  present  at  the  aeeting.   I'a  not  sure  Mhat 

^^  his  function  Is  or  Mhat  coapany. 

^*  He  had  Lake  Resources  stationery  eade  upt  I 

''^  believe  in  Hay  of  *86.   And  I  went  to  pick  that  up*  and 

''^  he  Mas  Malting  at  the  office  for  that  stationary*  and  he 

^'  took  five  or  six  sheets. 

20  Q    uhst*s  his  first  naae? 

21  A    Bob  or  Bill.   I  don't  knoM  Mhloh  Is  correct* 

22  or  even  if  one  is  correct. 


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^  Q  Could  you  doscribo  hia  physically? 

^  A  He's  tall«  thin.   He  wore  glasses  that  were 

3  tinted. 

*  Q  Color    of   hit   hair? 

'  A  Kind    of   a    sandy   brown.      He   had   a   Moustache. 

'  That's    about    it. 

^  Q  Hok   old   Mas    he? 

■  A  Fort»-l$h. 

*  0  Hhan's    tho    last    tlaa   you    saii   hlaf 

^0  A  I    think    the    last   tlao    I    saw   Mm    was    tihen    he 

^^  Mas   Malting    for    that   stationery. 

''^  Q  Mhleh    Has? 

^3  A  Back    In   Hay   of    '86. 

14  Q  Qo    yeu   know   whether    he    had    sight    In    only   one 


15 


eye? 


16  A  1  was  told  that  he  did  not  have  sight  In  one 

17  .,e. 

18  Q  oo  you  know  whether  he  had  a  glass  eye? 

19  A  I  was  rever  told  that.   I  was  Just  told  he  was 
^  b  I  Ind  In  one  eye. 

21  Q  Mho  told  you  that? 

22  A  I  believe  It  was  Bob  Outton. 


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^  Q  Hoh  aany  tiacs  was  Mr*  Olastaad  In  your 

^  offices? 

^  A  I  only  raaaabar  saaing  hi*  thara  tuo  tiaas. 

^  0  And  who  did  he  aeet  with  on  those  occasions? 

^  A  I  ballava  It  Mas  Hr.  Sacord. 

'  Q  On  both  occasions? 

'  A  Yes. 

^  Q  And  Mas  It  on  tha  second  occasion  tthen  ha  took 

tha  stationery  fro*  you? 

^°  A  Yas*  I  ballava  It  Mas. 

^^  Q  Do  yau  know  what  his  business  Mas? 

^^  A  No*  I  eon't. 

^^  Q  And  againt  he  Mas  In  Mlaai  on  one  of  the  trips 

^*  that  you  pade  Mith  Hr.  Secord? 


^S       A     In  April  of  '86. 

^'       Q    Do  you  knoM  his  addresst  Mr.  Olastead? 

17 


A    No.   Ha  told  ae  once.   I  took  hia  to  the 
airport.   He  said  he  lived  in  Maryland. 

Q    Anything  aora  specific  than  that? 

A     Soaepiace  that  it  rounded  ilka  it  Mas  a  May 

froa  the  city«  because  they  said  soaething  about  the 


^   lots  Mere  fairly  big  and  he  had  a  garden*  and  talked 


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^  about  cither  had  a  dog  or  nould  I  Ik*  to  gat  a  dog*  but 

^  he  travels  a  loti  you  knoM. 

3       Q    He'd  like  to  get  rid  of  a  dog7 

*  A    That  «as  about  It.   I  think  Bob  Outton  said 
^  that  he  Mas  an  ea-Rarlne. 

*  Q    Old  tie  or  fir.  Outton  tell  you  whether  Mr* 

^  OlBStead  had  served  with  Colonel  North  In  the  allltary? 

*  A    Not  that  Mas  never  aentloned. 

'       Q     You  took  Hr.  Olastead  to  the  airport.  Do  you 

^^  knoM  Mhere  he  was  goingt 
1^         A     No. 
12       Q    010  you  ever  place  calls  to  hia*  telephone 


call  St 

A     No< 


19  Q  la  he  on  your  rolodex? 

IS  A  I  don't  believe  he  Is. 

17  Q  You  said  that  one  of  the  things  you  have  done 

18  on  your  Job  Is  to  travel  -Ith  Hr.  Secord,  correct? 

19  A  Correct. 

20  0  Have  you  also  aade  up  a  list  of  the  trips  -Ith 

21  Hr.  Secord  or  or  his  behalf  that  you  recall? 

22  A  Yes. 


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^  HR.  BELNICKt   Would  you  aark  this  as  the  next 

^   Exhibit*  Napier  5. 

^  (The  doouatnt  referred  to 

*  Mas  aarked  Napier  Deposition 
'  Exhibit  No.  9  for 

*  Identification.) 
'             BY  HR.  BELNICKt   (Resualng) 

^       a    Shirley*  shoMing  you  this  docuaent  now  that's 
^   been  aarked  as  Napier  Exhibit  S«  did  you  prepare  this 
docuaent? 

A    Yes*  I  did. 

Q     Is  It  a  reconstruction  of  the  trips  you  recall 
Baking  as  an  STT6I  eaployeet 
A     Yes. 

0    And  ycu  signed  it  at  ay  request  and  put  the 
^^   date  on  It  earlier  today) 
Yes*  I  did. 

Mhen  did  you  prepare  Napier  Exhibit  57 
About  three  neeks  ago. 

At  the  saae  tiae  you  prepared  Exhibit  47 
Yes. 
far   the  saae  purpose? 


17 

A 

18 

Q 

19 

A 

20 

Q 

21 

A 

22 

Q 

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^  A     Yet. 

^  0     If  H«  could  Just  go  through  th«  trips*  th* 

^  first  one  you  ha«e  listed  on  Napier  Exhibit  5  Is  owor 

*  March  lath  to  16th*  1986*  and  would  you  doscrlbo  that 
'  trlpl 

*  A     I  accoapanlod  Mr*  Socord  to  London  to  attond  a 
^  aaatlng  Mith  Mr.  Khalld  Rashood. 

*  Q    And  Mho  Is  Mr.  Khalld  Rashoed? 

'  A    H«*s  a  Saudi  Arabian  buslnossaan. 

^^  Q    Had  you  saan  his  baforoT 

11  A    No*  that  Mas  tha  first  tiae  I  had  aet  hia. 

12  Q    Old  he  ever  call  tha  office? 

13  A    Yes. 

1<  Q    Freqaently? 

1S  A    Mot  real  frequently*  no. 

1«  Q    When  he  called*  he  askad  to  speak  to  Mr. 

1^  Secord  on  those  occasions? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  Q    010  you  place  calls  to  hla  for  Mr.  Secord? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  Q  uoultf    you   go   back    to    the   aeeting    then    In 

22  London  and   contlnuat 


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11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 


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'        A    We  got  there*  X  believe  on  Thursday.   He  had  a 

^  aeetlng  with  hia  on  Thursday  afternoon  that  I  did  not 

^  attend*   Me  aet  tilth  h  la  later  In  the  evening.   I  was  to 

*  go  along  and  te  take  notes  and  to  hopefully  draM  a  draft 

^  or  Mrlte  up  a  draft  of  an  agreeaent  that  Mr.  Secord 

'  Manted  Mith  l>r»  Ratheed. 

Q    And  Mhat  happened? 
'       A     hell*  they  never  caae  to  any  f Ira  agreeaent  on 

®  writing  this  agreeaent.   It  Mas  Ilka  a  consultancy 
10 


agreeaent. 

Q    Oo  you  recall  any  aore  specifies  about  the 
agreeaent? 

A     It  Mas  soaething  to  the  effect  that*  If  you 
wanted  to  do  baslness  in  Saudi  Arabia  governaent 
contracts*  t^at  you  needed  a  Saudi  eitizan  that  had  a 
degree  In  whatever  field  you  Mere  trying  te  get  into* 
Hhether  it  was  electronics*  aerospace. 

Khalld  Rasheed  has  a  degree  in  aerospace 
engineering*  and  so  the  plan  was  that  he  would  know 
what's  trying  to  coae  into  the  country  and  we  could  have 
a  consultancy  grcup  that  could  supply  -~>  If  they  wanted 


^   to  build  airplanes*  we  could  have  engineers  who  could 


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^  t«ll  the*  hoM  aany  airplanes  and  how  to  bulle  thea. 

2  Q  Hr.  Sacord  and  Hr.  Rasheed  aat  togathar 

^  privately  during  the  London  trip? 

*  A  Yes*  thay  did. 

'  0  Old  you  attend  those  aeetings? 

*  A  No*  I  eld  not. 

'  0  Did  nr.  Sacord  tell  you  Mhat  was  discussed  at 

^  those  Bcetingat 

^  A  No*  lie  did  not. 

^  Q  Old  anyone  else  tell  you7 

11  A  No*  they  did  not. 

12  0  Old  Br.  Secord  aeet  -Ith  anyone  else  during 
^^  this  March  *e6  London  trlp> 

14  ^  tes*  he  aet  privately  with  David  halker. 

15  Q  Old  you  knoM  who  David  Walker  was? 

1«  A  No. 

17  Q  oo  you  knoM  who  he  Is  now? 

18  A  I  have  seen  hia  and  he  has  been  to  our 

19  office. 

20  Q  Sine*    the  London   tripf 

21  A  tes. 

22  Q  Mho  do  you  understand  hla  to  bet 


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^        A    Hr.  Stcord  had  told  a*  that  he  was  the  English 
^   version  of  Ilk*  our  Delta  Force*  the  SASI  a  retired  SAS 
^   officer. 

*  0    Old  Nr.  Secord  ewer  tell  you  what  business  he 
^   had  Mith  Oavid  Malkerf 

•  A    No. 

0    Anyone  else  tell  you  thatt 
"       A    Mo. 

^  Q  Hon  aany  tiaes  has  he  been  to  STTGI? 
^^  A  I  believe  he's  been  there  two  tIaes. 
^^  Q  Since  nareh  19867 

A    tes. 

0  What's    the   next  occasion    that   you    recall 

Bailing   a   trip   tor   Hr.   Secordt 

A  I    itent    to  niaai    Mith   Mr.   Secord    In   April    of 

•86. 

0  That's    the   second    trip    listed   on    Exhibit    57 

^B  A  The   29th   and    aoth. 

IB  0  What   Mas    that   trip   all    about7 

^  A  Me   act   Mith   a   representative   of    the    Jaaaican 

governaent    concerning    radio   equipaent    that    they   wanted 


22 


to  buy.  Hr.  Olastead  Mas  theret  Hr.  Secordt  ayselft  and 


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''  this  Man  fro*  th«  Jaaalcan  gowerna«nt.   Hr.  Sacord*  I 

^  asked  hia  If  ha  «anted  a*  to  take  notes  ano  he  said*  no* 

^  Just  listen  carefully*  then  Mrlte  It  up  after  I  left  the 

*  aeeting. 

^  He  also  said  at  soae  point  two  gentleaen  fro* 

'  Motorola  Mould  be  Joining  the  aeeting.   So  I  was  there 

^  about  20  or  29  ainutes  before  the  tMO  aen  froa  Motorola 

'  caae.   And  nhen  they  caae  In*  Mr.  Secord  asked  ae  to 

^  return  to  hashington. 

10  Q    And  you  flea  back7 

11  A    Yet. 

12  Q    Qid  you  Mrlte  up  the  aeeting  as  you  recalled 

1^  it  on  the  planat 

14  A    Yast  I  did. 

15  Q    Typed  It  up  ahen  you  got  to  the  office? 

1*       A    Yei. 

17       Q    ci«a  It  to  Mr.  Secord  ahen  he  returned? 

«       A    Yea. 

19  Q    Have  you  ever  seen  It  since  then? 

20  A    No. 

21  0    Do  yau  know  ahere  that  wrlteup  is  noa? 

22  A  No. 


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^        Q    All  right.   Do  you  know  If  Nr.  Olastoad  was  an 

^  attorney? 

^       A    No*  1  (>on*t. 

*  Q  Th«  next  trip  you  hava  listed  on  Exhibit  5  was 

^  August  26th«  1986*  trip  when  you  went  to  NIaal  and 

®  picked  up  the  S16»C00  In  cash? 

^       A    Correct. 

^       Q    Mas  anybody  with  you  on  that  trip? 

"       A    Mo. 
10 


11 


12 


0    The  llnal  trip  Is  Septeaber  23  to  26th»  1986* 
6ene«ay  correct? 

A    Correct. 


^3       Q     Mould  you  describe  that? 

^^       A    Mr.  Socord  Mas  already  there. 

?^       Q     In  Geneva? 

^*       A     In  Ceneva. 

^'  And  be  called.   One  of  the  purposes  of  the 

^^  trip  Mas  to  aeet  Mith  Khalid  Rasheed  again.   They  Mere 

^^  going  to  Italy  tc  aeet  Mith  another  coapany*  Brinaddl* 

^  Mhlch  aanufactures  trash  Incinerators. 

21  Hr.  Rasheed  had  introduced  Nr.  Secord  to  the 

^  Brinaddl  faally.   He  Here  trying  to  get  an  agreenent  to 


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^   bacoa*  the  U.S.  rtp  for  these  treih  Incinerators.   So 

Hr.  Secord  had  asked  ae  —  he  forgot  to  take  the 
^   stationery  for  the  proposal  and  the  STTCI  brochures*  af 
*      he  asked  ae  to  bring  those  to  hla. 

Q    He  asked  you  to  coae  to  Ceneva  Just  to  bring 
brcchurest 

A     Yes. 

Q    Old  he  ask  you  to  bring  anything  elset 


'       A    No«  he  didn't. 

^^       Q    Statlerery? 

It 


A    Just  the  stationery  and  brochures. 

Q    And  you  delivered  it  to  hIaT 

A    Yes*  I  did. 

Q    Any  other  business  take  place  there? 

A    No.   By  the  tiae  I  got  there*  Khalid  Rasheed 
ad  called  Ma  and  cancelled  the  trip.   He  was  having 
^^   oral  surgery.   And  Hr.  Secord  left  the  next  day. 

Q    How  asny  tiaes  have  you  aet  Oliver  North? 

A     On  three  occasions. 

Q     Would  you  describe  the  first  of  those? 

A     The  first  tIae  Mas  a  Saturday  In  Scpteaber  of 
^   *86t  around  the  aiddle  of  the  aonth*  and  there  was  a 


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^       ■••ting    at    STTCI's    offlcs. 

^  Q  M*r*    you   askod    ip^elflcally    to   coa^    In   on 

^      Saturday   to   holp   with   that  ■••ting? 

*  A    Yait  I  Has* 

'       0    Who  Mas  at  th«  ■••tlngt 

*  A    Olll*  Mortht  Hr.  Sccordt  Mr.  Hakla*  Saa 
^   Q*Nalil»  thr«^  Iranians*  and  that  Mas  It. 

*  Q    Had  you  sa«n  Hr.  O'Neill  b«for«7 
'       A    Y«s*  I  had. 

Q    HOM  aany  tlaas  had  h^  b«^n  to  your  offico? 
A     I  think  h«  had  only  b««n  th«r«  on*  tiao 
before*  aaybt  Iho  tla«s. 

Q    Had  ha  calUd  in? 
^*  A     If  ha  old*  I  did  not  ansMor  the  calls. 

^S       0    Had  you  placed  calls  to  Saa  O'Nolil  for  Hr. 
S^cord  or  Mr.  Makla? 
A    No. 

Q    Do  y«u  knoM  for  Mhoa  ha  Morkodt 
A     No. 

Q    Old  b«  at  any  point  carry  a  buslnass  card 
saying  that  ha  worked  for  Stanford  Tachnologyt 

A    H*  had*  at  hr.  Hakla's  request*  business  cards 


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It 


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13 


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■ade  up  for  hi*  for  Stanford  Tochnology. 


0    Uhtn  Mas  thati 


A  I    ballew*   that   Mas    in   early    tuaaar   of    *86. 

^                  Q  Could    you   daserlba    Mhat  Mr.   O'Naill    lookod 
'       lllia? 

A  Ha   Mas    tallf    fairly    large    fraaedt   probably    90 

to   55*  Mora    slassas*      I   btlicva   he   had   a   aoustache* 
greying    hair. 

a 

Q  Do  you  knoM  if  that  Mas  his  real  naaet  Saa 
10 


Q'Neillf  or  Mhather  It  Mas  a  pseudonya  or  codenaael 


not< 


A     I  don't  knoM  Mhether  It  Mas  his  real  naae  or 


0    There  Mere  three  Iranians  there? 


A     Yes. 

^'       Q    Old  anyone  tell  you  their  naaes? 

^*  A    One's  naae  Mas  Chang  Izt  C-h-a-n-g  1-2.   I 

^^  don't  knoM  if  that  Mas  his  first  or  last  naae. 

^^  MR.  klHANt   Or  real  naae. 

19  THE  UITNESSt   There  Mas  another  gentleaan 

^  there*  Mhose  naae  Mas  Hr.  Oarvlsht  and  the  third 

^  gentleaan  I  Mas  not  Introduced  to. 

22  BY  HR.  BELNlCKt   (Resuaing) 


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^       Q    M«r«  the  thra*  Iranians  — •  hoM  old  would  you 


2 


say? 


A    Tha  tMO*  Chang  Iz  and  Hr.  Oarvlsh*  wara  40  to 
*       45. 

'       Q    And  tha  thIrdT 
^       A     Vcungt  ald-twantias*  lata  twantlas* 

0    Hon  long  did  tha  aaatlng  contlnua  aaong  those 
^   paople  on  that  Saturday) 

Thay  caaa  In  batwaan  9t00  and  lOtOO  on 
Saturday  aornlngf  and  I  laft  tha  offica  at  8tao  and  thay 
Mare  still  there*  8t30  at  night. 

Old  you  hear  any  of  tha  discusslont 

What  I  heard  mss  In  a  foreign  language. 

Nothing  In  Engllsht 

No. 

You  Moren't  asked  to  type  anything  at  that 

I  Mas  asked  to  aake  a  copy  of  a  paper. 

Do  yau  recall  Mhat  that  paper  Mas7 

No*  X  don't.   It  Mas  Just  a  single  sheet. 

Handwritten?   Typed? 

No*  It  Mas  acre  like  a  for**  not  Ilka  a  letter 


9 

A 

10 

Saturday 

Mere  sti 

0 

A 

0 

A 

0 

aeet  ing? 

A 

Q 

20 

A 

21 

0 

22 

A 

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but  Ilk*  a  bbslnasi  fori  of  so««  kind. 

Q     You  don't  reaoabor  what  Mas  on  Itt 
'       *    No. 

Q     Old  you  Itavo  before  the  aeetlng  endedt 


^       A    Yes*  I  did. 


Q    What  tiao  did  you  leaveT 

A    About  8t30  that  night. 

Q    Do  yau  reaeaber  when  this  mssT 


^       A     I  think  It  Mas  about  aid-Septeabcr . 

Q    When  Mas  the  next  occasion  you  ■a't  Oliver 
11 


North? 

A     It  Mas  another  Saturday*  In  probably  October. 

Q    Oft 

A     *86.   Again  It  Mas  at  the  office.   I  Mas 
Marking  on  a  Saturday.   I  think  I  Mas  In  there  doing 
soae  personal  typing.   I  knoM  Mr.  Secord  Has  there.   I 
Mas  on  ay  May  to  pick  up  soae  lunch*  and  01  lie  North 
pulled  Into  the  parking  lot. 
19  I  askeo  hia  If  he  Msnted  a  sandMich  and  took 

*   the  lunch  bacif  upstairs*  and  stayed  a  fOM  alnutes  after 

21  that. 

22  Q    Has  Hr.  North  still  aeetlng  Mith  Nr.  Secord 


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^   Mhen  you  left? 


A    Yes. 


^       Q    014  you  hoar  any  of  that  discussion? 

*  A     No. 

5 


Q    Whan  Mas  tha  third  occasion  that  you  saw  or 
'   aat  Oliver  North? 

'       A     It  was  In  Deceaber  of  '86. 
'       0     Before  Chrlstaas? 
^       A    Yes*  before  Chrlstaas. 

Q     Would  you  describe  what  happened  on  that 
occas Ion? 

A     Mr*  Secord  had  a  rooa  at  the  Eabassy  Suites 
and  called  ard  asked  ae  to  bring  soae  papers  over  froa 
the  office*   I  took  thea  over  there*  and  when  I  arrived 
01 1 le  North  aas  there. 
Q    Anyone  else? 
^^       A    Brilndan  Sullivan  and  Tea  Creen. 
^'       Q     ^Id  you  knoM  Toa  Green  before  you  saw  hia  In 
^^   the  Eabassy  Suite? 
»       A    Yes* 

^       Q    And  Mho  did  you  knoM  hia  to  be? 
^       A    Kr*  Secord's  attorney* 


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0     What  papers  did  nr.  Secord  ~  let  ae  stop  that 
for  a  second* 

The  Eabassy  Suite  Is  a  hotell 

A     Yet. 

Q    Uhera  Is  It  located? 

A     It's  in  Tysons  Corner  on  7*  Leesburg  Pike. 

Q  In  VIrglnlaT 
°  A  In  Virginia. 
^       Q     About  bOH  far  fro*  STTGI's  offices? 

A     Lets  than  a  aiie. 

0    What  papers  did  Hr.  Secord  ask  you  to  bring  to 
his  rooB  at  the  Eabassy  Suite? 

A    He  had  a  couple  of  boxes  In  our  storage  area 
that  Mere  records*  telephone  records*  telex  records* 
copies  of  telexes*  travel  receipts.   I  think  that  covers 
It.   Copies  of  Invoices.   He  asked  ae  to  bring  those 
over. 

Q    He  asked  you  to  bring  those  boxes  over? 

A    Yes. 


20       Q    Had  thote  boxes  with  records  been  asseabled 


shortly  before  trat  day  In  Oeceaber? 


22       A    Part  of  it.   Part  of  thea  had  been  there. 


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Part  of  thea  M«re  old  records  that  our  accountants  were 
working  with  for  the  previous  year*   So  they  worKed  out 
of  those  boxes  to  docuaent  travel  and  expensest  and  mo 
had  gone  through  and  put  soae  telexes  and  taken  soae 
stuff  out  of  ay  office*  receipts  for  the  current  year* 
and  put  thea  in  that  roaa«  because  there  was  a  sore 

secure  lock  en  that  door. 

a 

Q     Vou  liaa  done  that  shortly  before  this  day  In 

Oeoeaber  IS8£  when  you  went  to  the  hotel*  correct? 

A    Yes. 

Q     About  hOM  Buch  before? 

A     The  first  part  of  Oeceaber  we  did  that. 

0    Has  that  the  saae  day  you  participated  in 

shreddlns  docuaerts  at  STTCI? 

A     That  I  took  thee  over? 

0     No*  no.   That  you  asseabled  that  box  with  the 

docuaents. 

A     Part  of  It. 

13        Q     We'll  coae  back  to  that  in  a  aoaent.   Let's  go 

^   to  the  day  that  you  delivered  the  docuaents  to  the 

2^   hotel. 

^  fir.  Secord  asked  you  to  bring  the  box  over. 


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1 

2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


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Hera  th*r*  tuo  boxas? 

A     Thtr*  ktr*  two  boxes. 

Q     Vou  brought  tbaa  over? 

A    Yes. 

0    And  sak  Hr.  Secord*  Mr.  Northt  fir.  Creen*  and 
Mr.  Sullivan  In  the  roo««  correct? 

A     Yes. 

0    You  Mara  Introduced  to  Hr.  Sullivan? 

A     Yes*  I  Mas. 

Q    Had  you  aat  hia  before? 

A     No. 

Q    Hera  you  told  who  he  Mas? 

A     Yes. 

Q    Who  Mere  you  told  that  ha  Mas? 

A     That  he  was  Ollle  North's  attorney. 

Q     kiho  told  you  that? 

A    whoever  Introduced  us«  and  I  don't  raaeabcr 
Mhathar  it  Mas  fir.  North  or  Hr.  Secordt  one  of  the  two. 

Q     You  delivered  the  boxes? 

A     Yes.   I  took  one  upstairs  with  ae.   Then  fir. 
Secord  asicad  ae  to  put  thea  in  the  trunk  of  his  car*  so 
I  took  It  back  downstairs.   Ho  gave  ae  his  kayst  I  put 


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thaa  in  th«  trunk  of  his  car«  than  took  the  keys  back 
upsta  ir !• 

Q     Ano  gave  thes  to  Hr*  Secord? 

A    1o  dr.  Steord* 

Q     And  left? 

*        A     And  left. 

7 


Q  What  kind  of  car  did  Mr.  Secord  have? 

A  It  Mas  an  *84  Cadillac*  dark  blue*  the  long 
one*  Sedan  de  VI  lie* 

Q  He  sti  II  drives  that? 

A  Yes*  he  does* 

Q  Old  you  ever  set  those  boxes  of  docuaents 
back? 

A  Yes. 

Q  Uhen? 

A  I  believe  It  Mas  March  of  this  year. 

^^       Q  Last  aonth? 

«       A  Yes. 

^^       0  Apprev  laately  Mhen  In  Harch? 

^       A  I  don't  reaeaber.   I  Just  one  aorning  went  In 

21  and  one  of  the  boxes  was  there. 

22  Q  What  about  the  other  one? 


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A     Th«  other  one  I  was  told  waa  brougtit  back 
^   before  the  Independent  counsel  caee  In  and  took  It  back 
^   out  again. 

Q    When  did  the  independent  counsel  take  the 
'   botes? 

^       A     It  Mas  tMO  weeks  ago  yettordayt  I  think.   I 

7 

a 

9 
10 

^^  Q  Was   that    the    last  occasion    that    you    saw    Mr 

^^      North*    that    day    In   Oeceaber   at    the   hotel? 


don't  knoM. 

Q    Mere  copies  —  did  you  sake  copies  of  what  the 
Independent  counsel  took? 

A    No. 


13 


14 


15 


A     Yts. 

Q    Has  he  called  your  office  since  then  to  your 


knowledge? 


^^       A    Not  to  ay  knowledge. 

17       Q  H,g  nr.  Secord  or  Mr.  Hakia  or  Nr.  Outton 

IB   asked  you  to  sake  any  calls  to  Mr.  North  since  then? 


19 


A     No. 


^        Q     Has  he  asked  you  to  aake  any  cal Is  to  Brendan 
2^   Sullivan  since  then? 
22       A    No. 


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0  Have    you    taken   any   calls    froa  Mr.    Sullivan   at 

the    office? 

A  No. 

Q    NOM*  there  was  a  day  that  mo  started  to  talk 
about  soae  aoaents  ago  at  the  office*  Mhen  you  were 
asked  to  destroy  certain  docuaentsi  aa  I  right? 

A    Yes. 

Q    When  Mas  that? 

A    That  Mas  In  Oeceaber*  the  first  part  of 
Oeceaber . 

Q    Of? 

A     •86. 

Q    Would  you  describe  as  best  you  recall  It  Mhat 
happened  on  that  day? 

A    Hr.  Secord  caae  in  and  decided  mo  needed  to  go 
through  our  files.   I  think  he  actually  Mont  through  our 
subject  files  and  took  anything  out  that  he  Manted 
destroyed  or  put  Into  the  storage  boxes. 

I  Ment  through  the  telex  files  and  ay  files 


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^  a  person's  na«««  anything  that  raftrancad  aonay*  or  I 

^  think  I  took  out  things  that  rafarancad  part  nuabars* 

^  lists  of  part  nuabarst  9a«a  thoaa  to  Nr.  Sacord  to  go 

*  through* 

'  Q    And  than  Mhat  happanad? 

*  A    Anything  ha  Mantad  dastroyad*  ha  gav*  back  and 
^  wa  shraddad  thea* 

^  Q    Thara  kaa  a  shraddar  In  tha  offlcaT 

*  A    tas, 

^^  Q    Mhar*  kas  that  locatad? 

11  A    It*s  In  our  llttia  kitchan  araa. 

12  Q    MUg  participated  In  shradding  tha  docuaants  on 

'3  that  day? 

14  A     I  did*  Joan  Corbin*  and  Bob  Outton.   And  I 

^'  don't  ballavs  I  avar  ssm  Mr.  Sacord  shrad  anything.   I 

^8  Has  not  standing  thara.   But  again,  that  Mas  In  another 

^^  rooa* 

18  Q    But  Br.  Sacord  was  telling  you  to  shred  the 

^^  doeuaents? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  0    Old  «r.  Seeord  tell  you.  then  or  any  other 

22  iiaa  attar.  eh»  he  wanted  those  docuaents  shredded? 


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A    ho. 


^        Q    Have  you  cvar  disoussvd  tha  shredding  with  Hr. 


"   Hakia? 
*  A     No. 

^        Q    Old  nr.  Outton  —  has  Mr*  Outton  avar  said  to 
you  Mhy  tha  4ocuBants  were  shraddad? 
A    No*  ha  hasn't* 

0    Old  tha  docuaant  shradding  taka  placa  on  aora 
'   than  Just  that  day  In  Oacaabar  that  you*va  oascrlbadt 
A    Yes*  It  did. 
Q    Hon  aany  days  after? 

A     I  den*t  knoM*  aaybe  a  couple  of  days.   It  Mas 
Just*  I  had  steno  books  that  I  had  kept  aver  since  I 
Morked  there*  that  I  aade  all  ay  notes  on.   Those  ware 
destroyed.   !*■  not  sure  they  Mere  destroyed  on  tha  saae 
day. 


^^  Ua  destroyed  telephone  log  books*  where  you 

^^   have  a  copy  cf  Mho  called  In*  phone  aessages.   Those 
19 


Mere  destroyed. 

It  was  Just  over  a  period  of  days.   It  Mas  not 
Just  one  day  standing  there  shredding. 


^       0    NoM*  you  have  aentloned  coaaunlcatlon  devices 


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that  M«re  in  tht  office.   When  did  you  first  !••  thoa  in 
your  offlcosl 

A    Mhtn  I  €«■•  bacit  to  worlct  I  guass*  part-tiaa 
in  tti*  fall  of  •86. 

Q    Old  iho  davlces  arrlva  aftar  that  or  waro  thay 
airaady  thert? 
7 


A    I  balleva  thay  Mara  thara. 

a 

Q    Do  you  knoM  fro*  Mhera  Mr.  Secord  obtalnad 

a 

thosa   devlcast 

^°  A  It's   part^tlaa    In    *8S»   not    *86. 

0  Part-tlaat    *89.      Lat*s    go    bacit    so    th«   record 

is   ciaar. 

You   caaa   bacit    to   aoritt    you   wara   aoriilng 

part-tlae    in    1989? 

A  Yas. 

Q    Oo  yau  recall  the  coaaunlcations  devices  being 

there  during  that  part-tlae  period? 


11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 

^'       A    During  the  suaaer  of  '85  I  did  not  aork  at 

^'  all.   Mhen  I  caaa  back  in  Septeaber*  I  think  It  was 

^  around  October  I  raaeaber  the  encoding  aaehlnas. 

21  Q  October    1985? 

22  A  Yes. 


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^        0     Oo  you  knoM  how  those  aachines  got  to  the 

^   office*  Hherc  they  cane  froa? 

^       A     I  assuBC  Hr*  Secord  brought  the*  In* 

*  Q    Oo  yeu  knoM  froa  where  he  got  the«? 

'       A     I  understood  he  got  the*  froa  the  NSC. 

*  0    The  National  Security  Council? 
'       A     Yes. 

'       Q    On  Mhat  is  that  understanding  based? 
^       A     I  believe  he  told  ae  they  were  froa  the  NSC. 
^^       0    That's  your  recollection? 

A    Yes. 

0    Old  Nr.  Secord  tell  you  Mho  at  the  NSC  had 
given  h  la  these  devices? 

A     I  believe  he  said  he  had  gotten  thea  froa 
Oil  le  North. 

Q     Is  that  your  recollection  of  Mhat  Mr.  Secord 
told  you? 
^'       A     Yes. 

^^       Q    Old  nr.  Secord  tell  you  for  Mhat  purpose  he 
^   obtained  these  devices  froa  Nr.  North? 
^^       A    Hell*  you  could  stay  In  coaaunlcat ions  and 
^   they  couldn't  be  —  like  a  Hiretap  on  your  phone)  I 


70 


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don't  knoM  Mhcthcr  you  could  tap  into  the**  but  you 
couldn't  understand  the*  because  they  were  in  codes. 

Q     Ho«  aany  such  aachlnes  Mere  there  in  the 
office? 

A    At  that  tlae  there  was  one. 

*  0    And  Mas  there  a  tiae  that  there  was  aore  than 
7 
8 

*  0    When  was  that? 
A     Just  recently  there  were  five  In  there*  In  the 


one? 

A    Yes. 


office* 

0 


Old  that  —  how  long  after  the  first  did  the 


10 
11 
12 

^^  other  four  —  "" 

14       A     Hell*  let's  see.   When  Bob  Dutton  started  In 

^^  Hay  of  •86,  ha  received  one.   For  soae  reason*  It  see«ed 

^*  like  there  was  an  extra  one  there  that  was  In  the  file 

■•^  cabinet.   I  don't  know  where  that  caae  froa. 

18  4„j  then  by  the  end  of  last  year  there  were 

^®  two  aore.   I  don't  know  where  they  caae  froa. 

20       Q     They're  aultlplylng.   They  not  only  were 

2^  called*  but  they  were  fruitful. 

22  Art  there  any  aachines  still  In  the  office  at 


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^  STT6I? 

^       A     Yas*  there  are  toa«  there. 

3       Q    Hon  ■any? 

*  A     There  are  five.   They're  not  the  big  encoding 

^  Machines  that  we  had  before.   These  are  very  saall. 

^       Q    Baby  aachlnes?   This  Is  getting  serious  now. 

^       A    Yes*  they  are  very  tiny  ones. 

^       0    What  happened  to  the  big  ones? 

^       A    Mr.  Secord  took  the*  out  of  the  office. 
^°       Q    Mhenf 

^^       A     It's  been  in  the  past  couple  of  weeks. 
^^       Q    Oo  you  knoM  where  he  took  then  to? 
''^       A    No.   It  «as  ay  understanding  that  —  I  don't 

^^  knoM  whether  they  were  returned.   He  and  Tea  Creen 

^^  either  returned  the*  to*  I  don't  know  if  it  was  the 

^^  independent  counsel  or  the  FBI. 

^'       Q    Here  the  saaller  aachlnes  separate  Machines? 
^^       A    They  were  never  used.   I  never  saw  these 

^^  used.   I  don't  know  where  they  caee  fro*.   They  were 

^  Just  there.   I  think  Bob  Just  told  ae  that  they  were  old 

^^  aachlnes  that  they  had  first  used  at  one  tiae*  and  I 

^  don't  know  where  they  caae  froa. 


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^        0     Old  you  transcribe  Messages  that  vert  received 


on  the  big  eachlres? 

A     Yest  I  did. 

0    Mere  they  shoitn  on  a  cathode  ray  tube  or 
terainal? 

•  A     Yes»  there's  a  little  bitty  one.   There's  like 
^   a  wlndOM  that  mIII  tal«e  up  to  two  lines  at  a  tiae. 

^        0     And  then  you'd  type  it? 

*  A     Right. 
Q    Oo  you  reaeMber  the  nave  COP? 
A     Yes. 

Q    And  did  you  understand  Mho  used  that  naae? 
A     No.   I  Just  reaewber  seeing  it  on  one  of  the 

■ossages. 

15       0    Okay,   You  never  heard*  aside  froa  anything  in 
^"   the  noMspaper*  that  COP  was  a  naae  for  Hr.  Secord? 
I^       A    No. 

18       Q    Do  you  reaeaber  the  naae  Mr.  Cood? 
«       A    Yes. 
^       Q    Uho  was  nr.  Cood? 

21  A     Ollle  North. 

22  Q     HoM  did  you  know  that? 


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1 

A 

2 

0 

3 

recal 11 

4 

A 

5 

yaar  • 

e 

Q 

7 

A 

8 

Q 

9 

A 

10 

Q 

11 

A 

12 

Q 

13 

Stceit 

14 

A 

15 

Q 

16 

A 

17 

it   was 

18 

0 

19 

A 

20 

0 

21 

A 

Mr.  Sacord  told  ■«. 

And  ha  told  you  that  as  of  Mhant  do  you 

I  don't  racall*   Soaa  tiae  ovar  tha  past 

Bafora  Novaabar  19867 

Yas. 

Okay.   Oo  you  reaaaber  tha  naaa  Blacklat 

No. 

Staal? 

Yas. 

And  froB  Hhare  do  you  raaaabar  tha  naaa 

Again*  froa  tha  ancoding  aachlnas. 
Mhat  atout  Castillo? 

Faalllar*  but  I  don't  knoM  froa  whare*  unless 
t    aachlnas. 
Coaaz? 

Yast  tha  aachlna. 

And  do  you  knoM  Mho  ha  Mas  or  sha  Mas? 
I  knaM  ha  had  soaathlng  to  do  Mith  Cantral 
^   Aaartcan  oparatlons. 


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^  Q    What  about  the  na«a  Fernandez? 

*  A    No. 

^  Q     Rodrtguez*  Felix  Rodriguez? 

*  A     Yes*  I  reaeaber  his  naae  froa  the  Machines. 
'  Q    Do  you  knoM  what  his  Involveaent  with  Hr. 

Secord  Mas? 

^  A    No. 

*  0    Do  you  know  Mhere  he  was? 

'  A     I  assuaed  he  was  In  Central  Aaerlca.   He  caae 

^°  here  one  tiae.   I  reaeab«r*  I  think  It  was  Bob*  saying 

^^  that  he  was  staying  at  the  Mestpark  Motel. 

''^  Q     The  Uestpark  where? 

■"  A     Tysons  Corner. 

^*  Q           Uhen  was  that? 

1'  A    naybe  last  spring. 

!•  0     The  spring  of  IS86? 

17  A     *e6*  or  the  suaaer. 

18  0    Old  nr.  Secord  or  Hr.  Outton  go  to  aeet  with 
^*  Hr.  Rodriguez  at  the  hotel? 

20  A     I  don't  know. 

21  Q     Now*  you've  aentloned  Central  Aaerica  several 

22  tiaes*  and  earlier  aentloned  soaethlng  about  the 


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^   oparatlon  in  Central  Aa«rlca»   What  was  your 


understanding  of  what  your  coapany  was  doing  In  Central 
A«erlca«  Mhat  business  they  had  there? 

A    Hell*  no  one  ever  explained  It  to  ae* 


^       Q    What  did  you  think? 


A     I  Has  told*  when  Bob  Outton  caae  to  Mork*  that 
he  Mas  to  oversee  the  Central  Aaerlcan  operation.   I 


^   just  assuaed  that  they  Mare  Involved  In  resupplying* 


9 

A    Hells  the  contras. 


Q    Resupplying  Mho? 
10 


^^       Q    Old  anyone  ever  tell  you  that? 

12 


A     No. 

0    On  Mhat  did  you  base  the  assuaptlon? 

A    Hell«  because  soae  of  these  Messages  Mould 

coae  In  and  they  Mould  be  asking  for  certain  supplies* 

aedlcal  supplies*  boots*  unlforas*  netting*  parachutes* 
that  kind  of  thing. 

Q    Old  you  knoM  the  naae  Adolfo  Calero? 

A    Yes. 

Q    HoM  did  you  know  that  naae? 

A    He's  called  the  office  before. 


^       Q    And  has  Hr.  Secord  called  hia? 


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A     I  believe  so. 

Q     And  did  you  Knon  that  he  Mas  a  contra  leader? 

A     Yes*  I  did. 

Q    Hon  about  Mr.  Arturo  Cruz? 

A    No. 

Q     Adolfo  Robelo? 

A     No. 

Q     tvwt    Beba? 

A     No. 

0     Mhat  did  you  understand  fir.  Outton*s  role  was 
In  tens  of  overseeing  the  Central  Aaerlcan  operation? 
Oo  you  knoM  uhat  his  specific  job  duties  were? 

A     Just  tc  kind  of  be  a  eanager  and  Keep  things 
running  SMOOthty*  and  I  guess  take  care  of  the  people 
they  were  dealing  with.   That's  Just  ay  opinion. 

0     Did  Nr.  Outton  or  Hr.  Secord  keep  a  diary  or 
appolntaent  book? 

A  Bob  Dutton  has  always  kept  very  detailed 
notes.  I  wouldn't  call  it  a  dlaryi  but  I  guess  an 
appointaent  book. 

Q    liOM  abcut  Hr.  Secord? 


77 


**  A  klhat    we    noraaily    do    Is*    if    he    has   a    Meeting    or 


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soavthing  ite'r*  anar*  of«  we'll  urit*  It  on  his  calendar 
^   that  h«  kccpi  on  his  desk.   Personallyt  I  don't  •>-  If  he 
keeps  a  personal  one*  I  don't  know* 

Q    You  didn't  keep  a  book  for  hia? 

A     No. 

Q    Or  far  Mr.  Dutton? 

A    No. 

Q    What  atout  Hr.  Hakia? 
'       A     I  did  not  keep  one  for  hIa. 

Q    Old  he  have  a  calendar  or  a  diary  of  his  own 
that  you  knon  of? 

A    Yes*  he  did.   He  carried  one.   I  don't  know 
how  detailed  It  wast  but  he  carried  one. 

Q    Old  Hr.  Button  travel  on  business! 

A    Yes«  he  did. 

Q    To  where? 

A     I  reaeaber  two  trips  to  El  Salvador. 

Q    Uhcnl 

A     I  know  one  was  —  I  guess  they  were  both  over 
the  suaeer.   I  think  he  was  there  In  August  or 
Scpteaber*  ard  I *a  not  sure  of  the  other  tiae  that  he 
went  down  there. 


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^        Q     Anyplace  else? 

^        A     H«  M«nt  to  California*  h«  Ment  to  San  Jose  or 

^   Los  Catost  tc  whore  fir.  Hakla  lives. 

*  Q  Where  In  Cal tfornia? 
^        A     Los  Gatos. 

*  Q     AnyMbere  else  In  CalifornlaT 

^       A    Oh»  he's  a  consultant  for  Lockheed.   He  did  a 

*  couple  of  trips  with  thea.   1  think  he  went  to  Ontario. 
^   California*  for  Lockheed. 

Do  you  know  for  how  long  Toa  Crean  has  been 
I  with  Rr.  Secord? 
SInca  I  have  worked  for  hia. 
Since  you  started? 
Yes. 
And  did  you  always  know  hla  as  Secord's 

Yes. 

Has  there  another  Creen? 
Not  that  I  know  of. 
Did  you  now  of  a  Hr.  Tony  Creene? 
Oh*  yes.   He'i  called  the  office  on  a  couple 
^   of  occasions. 


10 

Q 

11 

assocla^ 

12 

A 

13 

Q 

14 

A 

15 

Q 

16 

lawyer? 

17 

A 

18 

Q 

19 

A 

20 

g 

21 

A 

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ao 


^        0  And  did  you  ever  call  hta? 

^       A  No«  I  don't  bcllev*  I  havo. 

^       0  And  Hho  did  he  ask  to  speak  to  on  those 
occas lenst 

A  Mr*  Secord* 

Q  Oo  you  know  Mhcre  he  Mas  calling  froa? 

A  No.   He  has  a  British  accent. 

Q  Oo  you  know  what  his  business  was  or  what  his 

^   reason  for  ealllngt 

^°       A  Well*  at  one  tiae  I  thought  he  alght  be 
11 


associated  ulth  Oavid  Nalkert  because  I  think  we 
received  telexes  froa  both  of  thea  and  It  seeas  like  It 
was  the  saae  call  letters  at  the  bottoa.   So  that's 
where  I  aade  the  association  with  OavId  Malker. 

Q    Oo  yau  know  the  naae  Noel  Koch*  K-o-c-h? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  who  do  you  know  hia  to  bef 

A    He  was«  I  think  —  I *a  not  sure  what  his  title 
was  —  was  like  an  Under  Secretary  of  Defense  or 
Assistant  Secretary  of  Defense. 

Q    And  how  did  you  coae  to  know  his  naae? 
^       A    Nr.  Secord  was  a  aeaber  of  the  SOPAG*  and  the 


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^  Beatings  M«r«  arranged  through  Noel  Koch's  office.   It*s 

^  a  panel  eade  up  of  retired  generals  and  adalrals  that 

^  coae  In  and«  I  guess*  give  advice  on  probleas. 

*  Q    Mhat  do  those  Initials  stand  for? 

'       A     Special  Operations  Planning  Advisory  Croup. 

*  Q  And  Is  SCPAC  still  In  existence*  to  your 
knoMledge? 

^        A     I  think  it  Is*  but  I  don't  think  Mr.  Secord  Is 


on  the  panel  any  longer. 

Q    When  did  he  cease  to  be  on  the  panel? 


"        A     I  eo«*t  know.   !•■  not  sure  if  It's  a  cycle* 
^^   Mhere  you  serve  a  year  or  two  and  then  they  bring  In 
13 


different  people.   1  don't  think  he's  done  It  in  the 
past  year. 
15       Q     Qi^  (,,  have  contact  with  Hr .  Koch  during 

'^  IS86? 

"  A  Yes. 

18  Q  Old  he  call  hla*  Koch  call  Secord? 

1*  A  Back  and  forth. 

-^  Q  Back  and  forth. 

21  Any  letters  to  or  froa  Mr.  Koch  that  you're 

^   aware  of? 


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A    Not  that  !*■  anare  of. 

Q    NoH*  on  tha  telexes  that  you  either  brought  to 
question  that  day  at  the  Embassy  Suite  or  telexes  that 
you  shredded  In  the  days  before*  do  you  recall  the 
subject  setter  of  those  telexes? 

A    The  ones  that  Mere  —  soae  of  thea  were  back 
and  forth  to  CSP«  and  It  would  be  llket  again*  Manting 
to  knoM  Mhat  happened  to  funds  that  Mere  supposed  to 
have  coee  In  at  a  certain  tiae*  asking  thea  to  fol Iom  up 
on  It* 

There  Mere  soae  In  connection  m I th  Udall*  that 
Me  Manted  to  know  Mhat  had  happened  to  the  aoney*  If 
they  Mere  trying  to  collect  It*   I  knoH  there  Mas  one 
note  froa  David  halker*  too* 

I  can't  reaeaber  all  of  thea. 

Q     Do  you  recall  any  Mention  of  Moapons* 
aunltionst  in  any  of  these  telexes  or  other  docuaents 
that  Mere  shredded  or  brought  to  Secord  that  day? 

A     !*■  not  sure  they  ever  aentloned  Meapons 
specif  leal ly. 

Q    Hell*  let  ae  see*   Do  you  reaeaber  any  telexes 
^   that  aentloned  BioMpipes? 


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^        A     BloMplpat? 

'        Q     Do  you  reMeaber  ever  seen  telexes  like  that? 

A    No*   You  know*  soMetlaest  like  I  saidt  there 
Mere  soee  that  had  like  part  nuabers*   But  tihen  you  get 
into  a  series  of  part  nuabers  and  what  it  wast  I  dldn*t 
pay  attention. 

0  Old  you  ever  hear  any  discussion  In  the  office 
of  aoney  obtained  froa  any  foreign  governaents  to  assist 
the  contrast 

A    No. 

0    Do  you  knoM  Mhether  Mr.  Sacord  had  any 
dealings  with  the  governaent  of  Saudi  Arabia  on  that 
aattert 

A     I  doa*t  knoM. 

Q     You  don't  know  one  way  or  the  other? 

A     No. 

Q    HoM  about  Taiwan  or  Korea? 

A     I  don't  knoM. 

Q  Brunei*  B-r-u-n-e-l? 

A     No. 

0    Okay.    Did  you  know  the  naae  Rob  OMen} 


A    No. 


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Q  How  about  Robert  Earl? 

A  Y«f. 

0  Who  did  you  know  hi*  to  b«? 

A  That  ho  Morked  in  OIlie  North's  office  at  the 


1 

2 
3 

4 

^   NSC. 

Q    Hon  did  you  coaa  to  knoM  hia? 

^       A    He  would  call  the  office  also. 

3 

0    And  ask  to  speak  to  whoa? 

'       A     I  think  aost  of  the  tiae  he  talked  to  Bob 
10 


Dutton. 
11 


a    Did  Nr.  Button  ever  ask  you  to  place  any  calls 


to  Mr.  Earl? 


A    No. 


Q    Do  you  know  business  Dutton  had  with  Earl? 
A    No. 


14 

15 

Q    Old  you  ever  know  what  business  Secord  had 

^^  with  Lieutenant  Colonel  North? 
«       A    NO. 

^'       Q    Old  you  ever  know  what  they  were  working  on 

*  together? 

^^       A    No*  I  ^aM   never  told. 
^       Q    Weren't  you  curious? 


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'        A     I  thought  —  noMt  this  is  Just  what  I 

^  thought.   No  ono  aver  told  ■«.   I  thought  th«y  w«r« 

"^  Morking  on  a  rescue  atteapt  for  the  hostages  Mho  Mere 

*  being  held  In  Beirut. 

'       Q    HoM  did  you  coae  to  that  conclusion? 

*  A     Once  in  a  Mhile  —  Mell«  I  think  on  one 

^  occaslont  Mr.  Secord  said  soaething  to  the  effect  that* 

^  soaething  about  the  hostages  being  releaseo  and 

'  everybody  Mould  be  heros.   And  so  froa  that  I  assuaed 

^°  that's  Mhat  thay  Mere  Morking  on. 

11        Q     Old  you  ever  have  reason  to  think  they  Mere 

^^  MorkIng  on  anything  that  related  to  Central  Aaerlca7 


A     Yes. 


Q 


Mhat  gave  you  reason  to  think  that? 


15       A     1  guess  because  of  the  Messages  on  these 

^'  encoding  aachlnes  that  went  back  and  forth,  because  1 

^^  Masn't  SMare  that  they  used  thea  for  anything  to  do  Mith 

^8  Europe.   I  aisuaed  they  -ere  Just  tor  that  operation 

^^  dOMn  south. 

20  0  Old    you    ever    ask    Hr.    Secord    —    you've    traveled 

21  Mith   hia    froa   tiae    to    tiae    and    sa-    hia   —    Mhat    business 

22  he    had    that    involved   a    aeaber    of    the    National    Security 


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^   Council  staff  and  Central  AaarlcaT 
^        «    No. 

Q    Hera  you  curious  about  it? 

A     I  aas  curlousf  but  I  also  know  Hr.  Sacord  wall 
enough  that  it  was  soaathing  that  he  was  not  going  to 

toll  ae  even  if  I  asked. 
^       0    What  about  Hr.  Dutton? 
^       A     I*«a  never  asked  hla. 
Q    Why  not? 

A     I  ooa't  know.   I  Just  never  have. 
0    Old  you  have  any  qualas  about  taking  cash  to 

the  Old  Executive  Office  Building  for  Lieutenant  Colonel 
Morth? 

A    Yes*  that  concerned  ae. 

Q    Did  nr.  Outton*  when  he  gave  you  instructions* 

aake  It  clear  that  the  cash  was  intended  for  Lieutenant 

Colonel  North? 
A    Yes. 

Q     Old  he  say  to  you*  Ollle*s  waiting  for  It* 
soaething  like  that? 
21       A    He  did  say  Ollle  was  waiting  for  it. 
^       Q    And  It  concerned  you? 


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A  I    Mas    concarnad   carrying    the   cash* 

Q  Uhy'd    you    do    Itt 

A    Hell*  because  I*d  already  said  I  Mould  do  It 
before  I  knew  Mhat  I  Mas  picking  up.   And  then  I 
thought*  Mel  I*  I  alght  as  mo  I  I  go  ahead  and  do  lt(  I'd 
already  said  I  Mould. 

Q    Old  you  express  your  concern  to  Mr.  Outtont 

A    Yes.   I  Mas  concerned  about*  Mhat  If  I  Mont 
through  the  little  detector  thing  and  they  ssm*  you 
knoM*  stacks  of  aoney  In  this  envelope.   And  he  said 
they  Mould  have  It  packaged  In  a  May  that  It  Mouldn't  be 
a  problea. 

And  then  he  says*  you  knoM*  you  don't  have 
anything  to  Morry  about.   And  I  guess  I  Just  took  hi«  at 
his  Moro. 

0     Old  you  ever  ask  hi*  at  all*  or  Secord*  Mhat 
the  reason  was  for  this  cash? 

A    No*  I  didn't. 

Q    Any  understanding  of  Mhat  it  Mas  for? 

A    No.   I  thought  it  Mas  strange  to  bring  aoney 
up  and  take  It  to  the  Executive  Office  Building.   I 
could  understand  If  they  Mcre  taking  aoney  doMn«  if  thay 


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Mere  using  It  for  Nicaragua  or  El  Salvador. 

But  no*  I  Mas  hind  of  puzzled  at  that. 

Q    HoM  about  Hr.  Nlr?   Have  you  ever  heard  of 
hia? 

A    No*  I  don't  think  so. 

Q    Nlarodl? 

A     Yes*  but  !*■  not  sure  if  it's  not  fro«  the 
press* 

Q  ,    Frea  the  press  since  Noveaber? 

A     I  don't  recall  hearing  his  naae  In  relation  to 
the  office. 

Q    Do  you  reaeabcr  Mhen  the  press  disclosed  the 
dealings  bctkeen  our  governaent  and  Iran  on  the  hostages 
in  Noveaber  19867 

A     tes. 

Q    Old  nr.  Secord  ever  talk  to  you  about  that 
after  It  Mas  disclosed?   Did  he  aake  any  coaaents* 
observations  to  you*  about  the  brouhaha  In  the  press? 

A    Ot^er  than  the  press  didn't  knoM  Mhat  they 
Mere  doing  and  were  aessing  everything  up* 

0     Old  he  tell  you  Mhat  they  Mere  aessing  up? 
^       A    No.   Oh*  he  did  say  soaething  about  he  thought 


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that  thay  M«r«  endangering  people's  lives. 

Q     Then  you  recall  the  Attorney  General  of  the 
United  States  had  a  press  conference  In  Noveaber«  at 
Hhlch  he  announced  that  there  was  reason  to  think  that 
■oneys  that  had  been  Involved  In  the  Iran  transaction 
had  been  diverted  to  the  eontras* 
Do  you  rccal  I  that? 

A     Uh-^aa. 

0    Old  nr.  Secord  ever  talk  to  you  about  that 
announceaent t  express  any  vIoms  to  you  concerning  that 
■atter? 

A    Noi  he  did  not. 

Q    Old  he  express  any  concern  about  that  aatter 
to  you?   Has  he  ever  discussed  It  with  you  at  all? 

A    Not  he  hasn*t« 

Q    Ho«  about  Mr.  Outton*  saae  questions? 


89 


A  No. 

^"        Q  HaklB? 

«         A  No. 

^       Q  Old  Hr.  Secord  travel  to  Geneva  in  the  fall  of 

21   1986? 

^        A  He  Mas  there  in  Septeabcr.   Yes*  Septeabert 


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Mh«n  I  Mas  th«va* 

Q    Oo  y»u  recall  If  h«  was  there  In  hoveitber? 

A    I  con't  recall  nhethcr  he  Mas  or  not* 

Q    Has  he  been  to  Geneva  since  Noveaber  1S86  that 
you  knoM  of? 

A     I  believe  he  has  traveled  to  Geneva* 

Q    bhenl 

A     In  the  past  three  or  four  weeks* 

0    Oo  you  knoM  If  Mr*  Hakia  Mas  there  at  the  saae 
tlae? 

A     I  b«li-eve  he  Mas* 

Q    HoM  about  Mr*  Outton? 

A    No. 

Q  Old  yob  aake  those  travel  arrangeaents  for  Rr* 

Secord  three  Meeks  ago? 

A    I  don't  reaeaber  If  I  did  or  not* 

Q    What  travel  agency  did  you  use? 

A     BT  Travel* 

0     In  McLean? 

A    Vesf  or  Tysons  Corner* 

Q    And  did  Nr*  Secord  soaetlaes  aake  travel 
arrangeaents  for  hiaself? 


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A    Yes*  ht  did. 

Q    Do  you  knoM  If  he  used  the  saa*  agancyT 

A     I  ooa't  know  if  he  did  or  not.   !*■  assuaing 
he  did. 

Q  For  l»ai»  long  xas  Hr.  Secord  In  Ceneva  three 
Moeks  ago? 

A     I  think  he  was  there  Just  for  a  few  days. 

Q    Do  you  knoM  Mhat  the  purpose  of  that  trip 
Mas? 

A    Not  1  den*t. 

Q  Aside  froa  that  trip*  has  he  aade  any  other 
trips  to  Geneva  that  you're  aware  of  since  the  end  of 
Noveabar? 

A    Not  that  I*«  aware  of*  unless  I  could  look 
back  through  travel  records. 

Q    Shirley*  have  you  told  Hr.  Secord  that  you*d 
be  discussing  these  aatters  with  the  Independent  counsel 
or  with  us? 

A     No. 

^       Q    Has  he  ever  talked  to  you  about  what  you 
*^   should  or  shouldn't  say  In  connection  with  any  of  these 
22   aatters? 


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A     Mell*  the  only  thing  he's  ever  told  me    was  to 
tel  I  the  truth. 

Q    HoM  about  Mr.  Dutton? 

A     No. 

Q    Hr.  MakiaT 

A     Tell  the  truth. 

0    And  you  are  telling  the  truth  today? 

A    Yet. 

CPausc.) 
Q    Let  ae  aark  as  the  next  exhibit  the  subpoena. 
(The  docuatnt  referred  to 
Mas  aarked  Napier  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  6  for 
Identif  icatlon.) 
Q     I'll  90  to  this  In  a  aoaent. 

Let  ae  ask  you  about  a  few  aore  people. 
Robert  Lilac*  do  you  know  hiaf 
A    Yes. 
Q    Who  do  you  knoM  hia  to  be? 


^       A    He  Harked  as  a  consultant  for  us  back  in*  I 
^^   believe  it  Mas*  *84  or  *89t  when  mo  were  working  on  the 
^   Marways  project  In  Saudi  Arabia. 


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Q  In  Sauol  Arabia.   Was  HarMopM  related  to 


Secord's  coapany  In  any  way? 

A  No. 

0  Ola  soaebody  froa  that  coapany  share  space 
with  Secord  when  you  f Irst'started  working  there? 

A  Mhen  w«  first  openedt  he  shared  office  spaces 
w  I  th  us • 

Q  And  Mho  was  "he"? 

A  His  naae  was  Alfred  Perry. 

<3  P-e-r-r-y? 

A  Yes. 

0  Do  you  know  where  he  Is  today? 

A  He  has  an  office  In  Leesburg. 

0  And  for  how  long  did  he  share  space*  once  you 
were  there? 

A  Until  April  of  '86. 

Q  And  khtn? 

A  And  then  he  aoved  out  and  opened  an  office  In 
Leesburg. 

Q  Under  the  naae  Marwa^v? 

A  Yet. 

Q  What  business  Is  Harwaia  in? 


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A  St««l  business. 

Q  Oo  you  hnoM  CItnn  Roblnette? 

A  Yes*  I  do* 

Q  Who  da  you  knoM  hia  to  be? 

A  A  security  consultant  for  us. 

0  For  your  coepany? 

A  Stanford  Technology. 

Q  Have  you  seen  hln? 

A  Yest  I  saw  hie  Tuesday*  I  believe. 

Q  Tuesday  of  this  week? 

A  This  week. 

Q  He    was    in    the    office? 

A  Yes. 

Q  And  Mho  was  he  Meeting  with? 

A  He  wanted  to  sect  Mr.  Secord  and  Mr,    Secord 
dldn*t  coae  In  that  day. 

Q  Old  he  leave  any  Message  for  Nr.  Secord? 

A  Just  tc  call  hiM  later. 

Q  He  appeared  unannounced? 

A  No*  he  called  and  said  he  was  going  to  cone  Dy 
and  use  our  copier  and  wait  for  Hr.  Secord  to  coHe  in. 
Mr.  Secord  was  expected  In  around  noon. 


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Q  Hao  yob  (••n  nr ,   Roblnctt*  at  th«  office 
before  this  recent  Tuesday? 

^       A  Yes. 

^       Q  Is  he  a  frequent  wisltort 

'       A  Fairly  frequently. 

Q  Hon  frequently? 

A  Hayb*  once  a  aonth*  once  every  two  ■onths. 

^       Q  NOMt  I  think  you  told  us  that  he  was  a 


^  security  consultant  for  your  coapanyt  correct? 
10       A     Yes. 

''^       Q    Could  you  be  a  little  aore  specific  about  what 

1^  that  aeant? 

13       A     I  «on*t  knoM  what  It  aeant.   That  Mas  the  nay 

^*  1   Mas  told  to  write  the  checks*  to  aake  It  out  to  hU 

1^  and  the  purpose  of  the  check  Mas  for  security 


16 


consu  1 1  Ing . 


17       Q    ^ob  auch  Mere  the  checks  that  you  dreM  to 


18 


hia? 


19       A    They  Mcre  noraally  either  )9*000  or  )6t000. 
*       Q    And  hoM  frequently  did  you  draM  those  checks? 
*•        A    Maybe  every  couple  of  aonths.   I  think  Me've 


22 


on 


ly  aaybe  dene  five  or  six  checks  to  hia. 


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Q     Do  you  knot*  whether  Mr.  Roblnette  ever  did  any 
Mork  for  you  that  Involved  Lieutenant  Colonel  North? 

A     I  con't  knoM. 

Q     Do  you  know  if  he  ever  did  any  work  at 
Lieutenant  Colonel  North's  house? 

A     I  don't  knoM. 

Q     Do  you  knOM  the  naae  Nestor  Sanchez? 

A    No. 

Q    Old  Nr.  Robert  McFarlane  call  the  office  at 
any  tiae  while  you've  been  eaployed  there? 

A    Not  to  ay  knowiedgof  but  I  noraally  don't 
answer  the  phoac* 

G    Do  you  know  if  Mr*  Secord  called  Mr.  HcFar  lane 
on  any  occasions? 

A     I  don't  know. 

Q  Did   he   ever    discuss    Hr.    ricFarlane    with   you? 

A  No. 

Q     Indicate  whether  he  had  any  relationship  with 
hin? 

A     No. 

Q     How  about  Adairal  Polndexter?   Did  he  ever 
call  the  office*  to  your  knowledge? 


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A     Not  to  ay  knowlodga* 

0     Old  Hr.  Socord  ever  ask  you  to  get  M«  on  the 


phone? 

A    No. 


'       Q     E«er  talk  about  hist 

6 


A     No. 

Q     Indicate  he  had  any  relationship  with  hia? 
A     No. 

0    Old  you  knoM  the  naae  Spitz  Channel? 
A    No. 

Q    RIchare  IM  I  ler? 
A     No. 

Q    National  EndoMStnt  for  the  Preservation  of 
Liberty? 

A     No. 

Q    This  Is  a  copy  of  Napier  Exhibit  6*  the 
subpoena  that  mo  served  on  youf  Shirley. 

HR.  BELNICKl   And  I  can  address  this  question 
to  counsel*  If  It's  easier*  Cerry.   Aside  froa  the 
^   rolodex  Me*ve  identified  and  requested  we  be  provided* 
^^   has  Ms.  Napier  looked  through  the  docuaents  described  In 
^   the  subpoena  and  brought  In  today  Mhatever  she's  found* 


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^   but  for  the  roloCex? 

^  MR.  TREANORt   Yes. 

RR.  BELNICKt   So  I  aa  correct*  aa  I  not*  that 
this  Is  the  subpoena  that  was  served*  a  copy  of  It? 

HR.  TREANORt   It  appears  to  be  a  copy  of  Mhat 
I  received* 

MR.  BELNICKt   I  represent  that  It's  what  I 
believe  Is  — 


°  MR.  TREANORt   That's  good  enough  for  ae. 

^^  NR.  BELNICKt   Okay. 

11 


BY  HR.  BALLENt 
Q    Let  ae  clarify  the  record.   Is  It  true  you 
also  received  a  copy  of  the  subpoena  froa  the  House? 
A    Yes*  I  did. 

0    Do  yau  recall  when  that  Mas? 

A     I  think  you  have  It  there.   I  can  get  the  copy 
of  you  Mant  ae  to. 

Q     Just  for  the  record. 

MR.  BALLENt   You've  received  the  House 
subpoena  as  nell  as  the  Senate? 

HR.  TREANORt   I  believe  all  of  the  docuaents 


^   called  for  In  both  the  House  subpoena  and  Senate 


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^  subpoena  have  btan  produced  today*  with  the  exception  of 

^  a  xerox  copy  of  the  rolodext  which  I  believe  Is  the  only 

^  personal  docuaent  In  the  custody  of  Hs.  Napier  at  the 

*  STT6I  office.   And  Me  will  produce  that. 

'  MR.  BALLENt   Thank  you  very  auch. 

*  BY  NR.  BALkENt   (Resuaing) 

^       Q     I'a  going  to  nork  froa  the  back  forward. 

*  A     Okay. 

*  Q    You  testified  a  little  bit  earlier  that  fir. 
''*'  Sacord  ttas  In  Cenava  three  weeks  agol  Is  that  correct? 
''1        A    Approx  laatoly  three  weeks  ago. 

12       Q    Also*  you  believe  Hr.  Hakla  was  there*  too? 
1'       A    Yes, 

14  Q    What  led  you  to  believe  that  nr.  hakla  was 
^*  also  In  Ceneva  at  the  saae  tiae  as  Hr.  Socord? 

15  A  We  placed  calls  to  Hr.  Hakla  and  that  was  the 
^'  country  code*  and  the  hotel  was  a  hotel  In  Geneva  where 
''*  thay  stayed  before. 

IB       Q    Okay.   Mho  asked  you  to  place  the  calls? 

20  A     Hr.  Secord  would  ask  ae  to  call  Albert. 

21  Q     In  Geneva? 

22  A     Ua-haa. 


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''        Q     This  Mas  Mh«n  h«  Mas  still  In  the  Unltad 
^   Statas? 
3        A     Yes. 
*  Q     Virginia? 

'       A     tes. 

^        Q     Old  you  place  any  phone  calls  to  Mr*  Hak in  In 
^   Geneva  at  the  saae  tlae«  three  weeks  ago*  that  Mr* 
^   Secord  Mas  in  Ceneva? 
^       A     I  doii*t  believe  so*  no. 

^°       Q     I*B  a  little  confused.   What  led  you  to 
^^   believe  that  Mr.  Hakia  was  In  Ceneva  three  weeks  ago  at 
^^   the  saae  tiae  Mr.  Secord  was  there? 

^^       A     I  guess  I  was  Just  assuaing  he  was  still  there 
^*      Mhen  Mr.  Secord  went*  since  we  had  talked  to  hi*  there 
^^   before  he  went  on  his  trip. 

^^  Q  HoM  auch  before  Hr.  Secord  went  on  his  trip 
^^  did  you  talk  -- '  did  you  place  the  phone  call  fro*  Hr . 
Secord  to  Hr.  Makia  In  Ceneva? 

A    Probably  a  aatter  of  a  few  days. 
Q    So  It  was  shortly  before?   Would  It  be  fair  to 
say  this  was  shortly  before  Hr.  Secord  left  for  Geneva* 
you  placed  a  call  to  Hr.  Hakla  In  Geneva  to  Mr.  Secord? 


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^         A     Y«s. 

'        0     NoNt  you  ■•ntloned  Hr.  Clenn  Roblnctte*  a 

^   security  consultant  to  the  coapany*   Old  you  avar  cut  a 

*      chack  for  S2«000  for  Hr.  Roblnette? 

^       A    Mr.  Sacord  cut  a  chack  for  $2*000  to  Clann 
Roblnatta. 

'       Q     Uould  you  explain  the  circuastances  of  that? 

A     It  was  a  day  I  nas  not  In  the  offlcet  and  when 
I  want  to  write  out  a  chack  I  saw  In  the  register  that 
he  had  wrltttn  a  check  to  Clenn  Roblnette  In  the  aaount 
of  S2*000.   And  the  reference  was  for  security 


^^  consulting. 

''3        0     Have  you  read  In  the  press  about  a  gate  being 

^*  constructed  at  Hr.  North's  house? 

^'       A    Yes*  I  did. 

18  Q    Oo  yau  recall  whether  or  not  the  check  that 
''^  Mr.  Secord  wrote  was  around  the  tlae  of  the  gate 

^^  construction? 

19  A     It  was. 

20  0    Do  you  know  what  tlae  that  would  be* 

approMlaately? 


21 


22       A     It  saaas  like  It  was  a  couple  of  weeks  ago 


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that  that  happened*  two  or  three  weeks  ago. 
^        0     Approx  iaately? 
3 


A     !*■  not  sure.   The  check  was  written  on  a 
Thursday.   Again*  I'd  have  to  go  back  to  ay  check 
register.   And  that  was  a  couple  of  weeks  ago. 

0     You  also  testified  thatt  on  the  Messages  that 
caae  across  the  coaaun I  cat  ions  device*  that  you  typed 
certain  hard  copy  of  those  aessages? 

A    Yes. 

Q  Would    that    be   correct? 

A  Yes. 

Q     Here  any  of  those  ——   did  you  ever  see  any  of 
those  typed  copies  after  you  had  typed  then? 

A     That  I  had  typed? 

Q     Yes. 

A     I  believe  I  saw  the*  in  Bob  Dutton's  office* 
on  his  desk  or  scacthing*  when  I  would  take  soaething 
in. 

0     Old  there  ever  coae  a  tiae  when  the 
coaaun icat ions  device  got  a  printer  attached  to  It? 

A    Yes*  we  did  get  a  printer. 

Q    And  when  would  that  be? 


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A     I  believe  It  was  last  fuaaer*  the  tuRMer  of 
*86t  Me  got  a  printer* 

Q  Hod  did  that  printer  MorK*  to  the  best  of  your 

knoM  lecse? 

A     It  Mas  attached  to  the  encoding  aachlne  and  I 
think  you  hit  a  button.   When  a  Message  caae  ln«  after 
it  was  finished*  you  could  hit  a  button  for  print  and  it 
printed  out  a  copy* 

Q     Old  you  ever  see  any  of  those  printed  copies? 
A     I  saM  the«*  never  close  enough  to  pick  them  up 
and  read  thee. 

0     And  Mhcre  do  you  think  you  saw  thea? 
A     That  Mas  In  Bob's  office.   He  had  the  printer 
^*       In  his  off  Ice. 

^^  Q  Do  you  know  Mhat  happened  to  either  the  copies 
^^  you  typed  —  do  you  know  what  happened  to  the  copies  you 
■"^   typed? 

^^        A     I  gave  thea  to  either  Bob  or  Mr.  Secordt 
^^   Mhoevcr  had  asked  ae  to  type  it  out. 

20  Q     And  hoM  about  the  copies*  the  printed  copies 

21  froa  the  coaaun I  cat  Ions  device?   What  happened  to 

22  those? 


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A    Bob  Outton  had  thea.   I  don't  know  Mhether  he 
Kept  thea  or  threw  thea  away. 

Q     Aaong  the  docuacnts  that  Mr*  Secord  asked  you 
to  shred  In  Oeceaber  1986«  did  you  notice  any  typed 
coaaun i cat  Ions  docuaents? 

A    No. 

0     You  don't  recall  any? 

A     No.   Nr.  Secord  gave  ae  soee  papers  to  destroy 
'   that  ha  had  In  his  office  or  In  his  briefcase.   He 
produced  thcat  I  don't  know  where  they  caae  froa.   I 
shredded  thea»  but  I  shredded  thea  face-down. 

0     So  you  don't  know? 

A     So  I  have  no  idea  what  they  were. 

Q     Mere  they  white  business  —  what  did  they  look 
like? 

A     They  were  Just  like  white  paper*  like  thatt 
Just  a  stack  probably  about  like  that. 

Q     Could  you  tell  whether  the  writing  went  all 
the  way  down  the  page*  It  was  a  half  a  page? 

A     I  didn't  pay  that  close  attention  to  thea. 

Q     This  would  be  during  the  tiae  period  when  Hr. 
Secordt  in  Oeceaber  of  '86*  when  he  had  asked  you  to 


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^   shred  decuaentst  Mould  that  b*  correct? 

*        A     Ye«. 
3 


Q     Mould  that  be  —  !•■  Just  trying  to  fix  In 
your  Meaory  how  far  Into  Oeceaber  that  occurred*   Would 
that  have  occurred  In  the  first  week  or  the  second  Meek 
or  the  third  weekt  as  best  you  can  recall? 

A     I  hnoM  It  was  before  the  19th  of  Oeceaber*  Is 
all  that  I  can  recall.   I  left  on  Chrlstaas  vacation  the 
19th  of  Oeceaber*  so  It  nas  done  before  that.   I  really 
don't  reaeabtr  whether  It  was  the  first  or  second  or 


third  week. 

^2        a     Here  the  days  --  you  said  It  happened  on  nore 

^^  than  one  day.   Ucre  the  days  one  after  another  or  were 

^*  they  spread  out  over  a  long  period  of  tine? 
15        A     I  think  they  were  spread  out  over  a  period  of 

1^  tiae. 

I^       Q    Qg  you  have  any  recollection  at  all  whether  a 

^^  period  of  tlae  had  passed  In  Deceaber  before  the  first 

1^  date  occurred  that  you  were  asked  to  do  thIsT 

20  A    No. 

21  Q    Are  there  files  kept  of  the  Aaerlcan  Express 

22  records? 


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A     Yes. 

0     Art  those  files  kept  now  currently  at  STTCI 
offices? 

A    hith  the  exception  that  the  Independent 
^   counsel  has  taken  all  of  the*  outt  they  are  kept  there. 

Q    Those  are  docuaents  as  mo  1 1  that  the 
Independent  counsel  has  taken  outf  In  addition  to  the 
other  docuaents  that  you  described? 

A    Yest  yes. 

Q     NoMt  you  aentioned*  If  I  recall  correctly*  at 
one  point  In  tiae  Secord  Associates? 

A    Yes. 

Q    What  Is  Secord  Associates? 

A     That's  another  business  of  Mr.  Secord*s.   I 
don't  know  Mhal  functions  it  perforas.   Ue  pay  hia  his 
salary  as  a  consultant  and  the  checks  are  aade  out  to 
Secord  Associates*  Incorporated. 

Q     And  hOM  auch  is  the  salary  he  gets  paid? 

A     S6«000  a  Month. 
^       Q     Is  he  paid  a  salary  by  STTCI? 
^        A    STTCI  Is  the  one  that  pays  hia  the  S6*000  a 
^   aonthf  and  the  checks  are  aade  out  to  Secord 


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^  Assocl8tei* 

^        Q    Dots  h«  get  another  salary  directly  froi 

^  ST76I? 

4 


5 


6 


A     No. 

Q     As  president  of  that  corporation? 

A     ho. 


0     Is  Secord  Associates  an  incorporated  coapany 


10 


7 

^  as  far  as  you  knoii? 

^  A     I  assuae  It  is*  If  it's  Secord  Associates* 

Incorporated. 

^^  Q     And  do  you  perfora  any  secretarial  duties  or 

^^  other  duties  for  Secord  Associates*  Incorporated? 

13  A     No. 

1^  Q     Does  anyone  to  your  knoMledge? 

1^  A    No*  not  in  our  office. 

16  0     Oo  you  know  of  any  business  that  this  coapany 

1^  conducts? 

18  A     No. 

19  Q    Oo  you  knoM  where  the  Secord  Associates  bank 
^  accounts  are  located*  what  bank? 

21  A     No*  1  Con*t. 

22  Q     How  about  the  STTCI  bank  accounts? 


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A    At  First  Aatrican  Bank  of  Virginia. 
Q    An«  Mhich  branch  Is  It? 


^       A     Vienna. 


Q    NoM*  on  the  days  involving  the  shredding  of 
^   the  docuaentst  Just  so  I  understand  your  testlaony 
^   correctly*  Hr.  Secord  went  through  soae  of  the  actual 
files  and  pulled  doeuacnts  that  he  then  wanted  you  to 
shred? 

A     Yes. 

Q     In  fact*  he  instructed  you  to  shred  theat  is 
that  correct? 

A    Yes. 

(Pause.) 

Q    Now*  do  you  know  the  naae  Erich  von  Rarbod? 

A     I've  heard  it  in  the  press. 

0    Old  you  ever  Know  whether  he  called  the  office 
or  not? 

A    Not  that  I  over  took  a  call  froa  hla. 

Q    How  about  Edwin  Wilson? 


y 


20 


22 


A     No. 

0    Let  ae  ask  about  Theodore  Shackley?   Did  you 
ever  take  any  calls  froa  hia? 


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''        A     I  believe  so. 

^        Q     hai  he  ever  visited  the  office? 

^        A     hot  to  ay  knowiedge* 

*  Q  Old  yoii  eake  any  travel  arrange«ents  for  fir. 
^   Secord  and  yourself  with  BT  Travel? 

*  A     Yes«  I  did. 

^        0     Old  he  ever  use  any  other  conpany  that  you 
^   knoM  of? 

hot  that  I  know  of. 

Old  you  destroy  during  Oeceiiber  any  rolodex 

Yes*  I  did. 

Do  you  recall  any  of  the  rolodex  cards  that 
^*      you  destroyed? 

15        A     Oavid  lialkar*s  cardt  Rafael  Quintero*  and  I 
''^   believe  Ollle  North's  card. 

17  Q     Mho  asked  you  to  destroy  those  cards? 

18  A     Mr.  Secord  asked  m%    to  destroy  David  Walker's 
"•«   card,  and  I  destroyed  Ollle  North's  and  Rafael 

20   Quintero's  because  their  nuabers  were  not  good  any 

2''   aore. 

22        0     Old  «r.  Secord  asked  you  to  destroy  any  other 


9 

A 

10 

0 

11 

cards? 

12 

A 

13 

Q 

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^       cards? 

'  A  I    don't   r*call.      I    don't    think    so.      Thoso   are 

the    three  I    recall    destroying. 

*  HR.   BALLEN;      I    have    no    further    questions* 
(Discussion    off    the    record.) 

*  BY    MR.    HOLMES: 

^       Q  Ms.  Napier*  were  you  ever  employed  as  a 

'   consultant  for  Aaerlcan  National  Manageaent? 
9 


A  No. 

Q  You  never    consulted    for    thea? 

A  No. 

Q    Old  you  ever  receive  any  aoney  froa  that 
corporat Ion? 

A     Yes. 

^^       Q    What  Mere  the  c Ircuastances  of  your  receiving 
^^   that  aoney? 

^^        A     When  I  first  started  working  for  Stanford 
^^   Technology*  Stanford  Technology  Mas  sub-leasing  office 
^^   space  froa  Aaerlcan  National.   And  they  paid  ay  salary 
^   and  then  billed  Stanford  Technology  for  ay  salary  plus 
^^   office  space. 
^       Q    Dio  you  actually  perfora  Mork  for  Aaerlcan 


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National  or  old  you  do  all  the  work  for  Stanford? 

^        A  I  Morkcd  for  Stanford  Technology. 

Q  You  never  Morked  under  the  direction  of  a  nr . 
*       Gadd? 

^        A  Not  1  old  not. 

0  Referrlns  to  your  trip  to  niaHl  on  August  the 
26th«  1<)86«  prior  to  your  trip  you  Matched  rir.  Outton 

Q 

■  ake  a  phone  calK  Is  that  correct? 
^        A     I  cldn*t  Match  him.   He  said  he  was  going  to 

aake  a  phone  call. 
''''        Q     Uhc  did  he  cat  It 

12        A     I  believe  he  called  Qllle  North. 
1^        0     Did  he  tell  you  he  was  going  to  call  OIlie 
"■*   North? 

1S        A     He  didn't  tali  ae  he  was  going  to  call  Ollle. 
^^   But  later  in  conversation  it  Mas  that  he  had  checked 
1^   Mith  Ollle  tc  see  if  It  Mas  okay  if  I  picked  up  the 
1*   aoney. 

19  Q     As  I  recall  your  tettiaony*  there  Mas  another 

20  phone  call  prier? 

21  A     He  Mas  going  to  call  —  the  other  Mas  to 

22  Southern  Air  Transport  to  set  up  who  I  Mouid  aeet  and 


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19 


20 


21 


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Mh«re • 


2 

A  !•■   not    sure   who    tie    talked    to*       The    aan    that    I 


G  I    assuae    he    talked    to   Hr.    Langdon    there? 

3 


4 

■  eet  Ing. 


■et  called  at  later  that  afternoon  and  arranged  the 

S 


8 

A     Yes. 


Q     And  he  told  you  how  to  recognize  hia? 

7 


0  Is  that  hOM  you  knew  what  an  SAT  10  badge 
looked  like  tihen  you  arrived  there? 

1°       A  Yes. 

Q  Had  you  ever  seen  one  before? 

^^       A  No*  1  had  not. 

^^        0  What  did  It  look  like? 
14 


A     It  Mas  a  very  large  badge*  and  It  had  their 
picture  and  it  had  "SAT"  across  the  top. 

0    Old  the  picture  natch  the  face  that  you  were 


'*'   looking  at? 


A    Yes*  it  did. 

Q     You  picked  up  the  package  fro*  this  aan  In  the 
airport  in  Hiaai  and  opened  It  in  the  Monen's  rooa*  is 
that  right? 

A    He  opened  it  in  the  lounge  and  shoned  ae  the 


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■oney. 

0  And  then  you  reopened  it  in  the  Moaen's  roo«7 

A  Yet. 

Q  It  Mas  then  packaged  In  a  Federal  Express 
^   envelope*  is  that  right! 

A  Vet. 

0  Old  you  repackage  It  for  delivery  to  the  White 
House? 

A  Not  I  did  not. 

0  You  delivered  it  In  the  saae  envelope  In  which 
you  got  it? 

A  Yes. 

Q  And  that  was  a  Federal  Express  envelope? 

A  Correct. 

0  It  was  all  in  bills  of  the  size  of  $20  or 
saalier*  Is  that  right? 

A  Yes. 

^B        0  Hon  thick  was  the  stack  of  bills? 

'>9       A  Probably  about  like  that  (  Indicat  ins  >  . 

^       Q  That's  about  an  inch  or  an  inch  and  a  half? 

21  A  Yes. 

22  a  uere    the   bills   new    or   old? 


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^         A  010. 

^       Q  Noil*  you  had  occasion  to  discuss  the  aoveaent 

^  of  ■onty  In  cash  to  Latin  Aatrica  bafora*  hadn't  you? 

*  A  No. 


'  Q  That   had   navar    coaa    up    In   conversations   Mith 


6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


anybody    of    the    people   at    STT6I7 

A  No. 

Q    Old  you  knoM  hOM  they  Mere  paying  for  the  fuel 
for  the  airplanes  In  Latin  Aaerlca? 

A    Not  I  oldn*t. 

Q    Has  there  any  aessage  traffic  In  relation  to 
the  aoveaent  ot  cash  that  you  were  aitare  oft 

A    Are  you  talking  about  on  the  aachlnes* 
aassages? 

0     Yes. 

A    Yes.   They  Mould  ask  for  funds*  they  Mould  — 
I  think  they  Mould  send  a  aessage  as  to  Mhat  their 
expenses  Mere  at  different  tiacst  housing*  telephone* 
and  I  believe  salaries  for  the  aen  that  were  dOMn 
there. 

0    Old  It  appear  to  you  that  Mr.  Cooper  was 
priaarlly  In  charge  of  that? 


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A     Vett  by  what  Bob  Outton  said  about  hia*  I 
believe  he  was  in  charge  of  It. 

0     Oo  you  knoM  whether  Mr.  Outton  had  spoken  with 
Mr.  Cooper  befare  the  August  26th  aoveaent  of  the  cash? 

A     I  don't  believe  he  did.   When  I  said  that  I 
would  go  downt  I  don't  know  whether  he  talked  to  hi*  or 
not.   I  don't  th  Ink  so. 

0     Isn't  It  true  that  Mr.  Cooper  was  In  the 
District  of  Coluabia  about  a  week  before  that? 
A     That  I  don't  know. 
Q    You  don't  recal  I? 
A     No. 

MR.  TREANORt   I'*  not  sure  she  said  that  she 
doesn't  reaeaber. 

MR.  HOLnSt   I  understand. 
'"  HR.  TREANORt   I  understood  that  her  answer  was 

^^   that  she  didn't  know. 

^B  THE  HITNESSt   I  don't  know. 

''*  NR.  holmes;   I  understand. 

^  BY  MR.  HOLHESi   (RatualngI 

^       0     You  said  that  you  spoke  to  your  husband  about 
^   the  aoveaent  ot  cash.   When  did  you  first  speak  to  hia 


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^   about  it? 

^       A     Hhtn  I  talkad  to  ay  lawyart  and  he  had  been 
^   talking  to  the  Independent  counsel  and  they  were  talking 
*      about  possibly  prosecuting  ae  In  connection  with  this 
^   aoney*   And  I  thought  that  I  should  aake  ay  husband 
aitara  of  Mhat  had  happened* 

Q  You  hadn't  aentioned  it  to  hia  at  any  tiae 

prior  to  that? 
A     No. 

Q    And  you  hadn't  aantloned  It  to  anybody  else* 
Is  that  true? 
A    No. 

Q  Old  you  have  any  other  cash  transactions 

besides  the  ones  you've  talked  about? 

A    No*  other  than  the  S16*000  and  the  115*000* 
no. 

Q    You  said  that  you  bought  business  cards. 
Uhere  did  you  buy  thea? 

A     I  believe  it  ^as  froa  ninuteaan  Printers. 
^       Q     Is  that  in  Vienna? 

^  A    No*  It  Mas  over  on  Courthouse  Road.   It 

^   probably  Is  a  Vienna  address.   I  believe  It  was 


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^   ninuteaar* 


0  Is  that  tht  only  place  that  STTCI  bought  such 
things? 

A  Yes»  that's  where  we  have  had  printing  done* 

0  Old  they  also  do  your  stationery? 

A  NOf  our  stationery  Mas  done  In  California, 

a  hher*? 

^       A  I  don't  KnoM.   I  would  have  to  go  back  through 

^   the  bills  to  find  out*   Hr*  Hakls  Made  the  arrangements 
10 


for  STTGl  stationery* 

Q     NoH«  ns*  Napier*  we  have  had  a  discussion 
about  soae  subpoenas  that  you've  already  coaplled  with. 
Are  you  aware  that  the  Senate  has  served  a  subpoena  on 
the  corporation  Itself  recently? 

A     No. 


16  Q     You  Should  be  aware  that  a  subpoena  Is  In 

17  effect  right  now  on  the  corporation  Itself  for  virtually 
^^  all  the  corporate  records*   Vou  understand  that  if  the 
^^  corporate  records  are  not  produced  pursuant  to  that 

^  subpoena  by  the  corporation  that  would  be  conte*pt* 

21  HR*  TREANORt   Uhy  are  you  giving  these 

22  Instructions  to  her? 


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^  THE  HITNESSt   On  my    part7 

nR.  BELNICKt   Excuse  ae*  excuse  ae.   Kip«  are 
Me  finished  ulth  the  questions  now?   I  think  we've 
cowered  the  area* 
^  HR.  MOLHES;   That's  all. 

*  HR.  BEhlCKt   Okay*  thank  you. 

MR.  BELNICKt   Let  ae  Just  aark  one  or  tMO 
other  docuaents*  Shirley*  that  you  brought  with  you. 

THE  WITNESSt   Well*  can  I  have  soaething 
clarified  here?   Aa  I  being  held  in  conteapt  If  the 
coapany  doesn't-- 

HR.  BELNICKt   No.   Let  ae  clarify  that  for  the 
record.   You  are  not  being  held  in  conteapt.   The 
coaaent  Mas  rot  aeant  to  threaten  you  Mith  conteapt  or 
to  suggest  anything  of  the  kind.   I  believe  you  should 
take  It  Just  as  a  coaaent  that*  by  May  of  inforaation* 
the  Senate  has  served  a  subpoena  on  the  corporation. 

You  arc  not  the  corporation. 

THE  HITNESSt   Okay. 

HR.  BELNICKt  You  have  been  very  cooperative 
here  today*  and  there  Mas  no  iaplication  to  the  contrary 
^   in  that  question*  certainly  none  intended  by  the  Senate 


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Com*  I  ttce. 


Okay*  so  plaas*  ralax.   Oon't  taha  anything 


3   froa  It*  okay.   All  right. 


Uould  you  aark  this  as  tha  naxt  axhiblt. 

(Tha  docuaant  rafarrad  to 
was  aarkad  Napier  Oaposltlon 
Exhibit  No.  7  for 
Idant if  Icatlon.) 
^  BY  NR.  BELNICKI   (Rasuaing) 

0    Shirlay*  this  Is  Naplar  Exhibit  7.   Is  this  a 
record  you  brought  with  you  today  of  your  travel  on 
April  2S  and  April  30«  19867 
A     Yes*  It  Is. 

0    Okay.   And  you  produced  that  this  aornlng7 
A     Yes*  I  did. 

MR.  BELNICKt   Would  you  aark  this  next 
docuacnt  as  Napier  Exhibit  8. 

18  (The  oocuaent  referred  to 

19  M8S  aarked  Napier  Deposition 

20  Exhibit  No.  8  for 

21  identification.) 

22  BY  NR.  BELNICKt   (Resuaing) 


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^        Q     NoMf  is  Naplcr  Exhibit  8  a  copy  of  a  travai 


record  you  brought  with  you  this  aorning  of  your  travei 
^   on  Septe*b«r  23«  1S86«  to  Cenava? 
*  A    Yes*  It  is. 

Q     Shirlayt  the  last  question  I  wanted  to  ask 

you*  and  you  aay  have  answered  If  before.   If  you  did* 
^   forgive  aa  for  repeating.   But  In  connection  with  the 
^   transaction  In  August  1986  when  you  delivered  the  cash 

g 

to  the  OEOB*  you  told  us  that  soae  tiae  thereafter  you 

discussed  that  transaction  with  tlr.  Secord*  right? 

"        A    Yes. 
12 


Q     And  I  believe  you  told  us  that  he  expressed 
concern  that  you  were  involved  in  this  or  becaae 
involved  In  that*  correct? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Can  you  recall*  was  he  any  aore  specific 
about*  In  his  words*  as    to  what  he  was  referring  to  when 
he  said*  I *a  sorry  you've  been  Involved*  becoae  involved 
in  "this"?   Oo  you  reaeaber  specifically*  aore 
specifically*  what  he  said? 

A     I  thlnl(  the  concern  he  expressed  on  the  part 
of  Colonel  North  was  that  aaybe  for  security  reasons  he 


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Mas  a  littla  reluctant  to  have  soaaona  alsa  Know  about 
It.   Hr.  Sacord's  concern  was  Just  for  «y  personally 

^   being  Involved  In  It. 

*  Q     And  Involved  In  Mhat? 

'       A     I  don't  knoM*  other  than  picking  up  this 

cash.   He  never  expressed  why*  what  the  whole  scope  of 

7 


8 


9 


the  thing  was  that  I  would  be  —  that  he  would  be 
concerned  about  ay  being  involved. 


fIR.  BELNICKt   Kent  do  you  have  any  Bore 

^^  questions? 

''''  MR.  BALLEN:   Just  one  further  aatter  for 

^^  clarification.   I  think  you  understand  that  here  today 

^^  we're  in  executive  session.   Nothing  that  has  been  taken 

^*  down  In  this  deposition  Is  going  to  be  repeated  to 

^^  anyone  outside  of  this  rooa  other  than  perhaps*  In  the 

^'  case  of  the  House*  to  the  chief  counsel  for  the  House  or 

''^  the  Chalraan  ot  the  Conaittee  or  the  ranking  Republican 

^B  aeaber. 

19  In  addition*  we  would  request  that  you  not 

20  repeat  the  contents  of  this. 

21  THE  WITNESS*   Certainly. 

22  HR.  IREANORt   Hell*  now  wait  a  alnute.   I  will 


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^   advise  her  as  to  nhat  she  can  or  can't  do. 
2  MR.  BALLENi   She  can  do  it. 

NR.  TREANQRl   I  understand  your  request  and 
we'll  consider  your  request*  along  with  any  other 
factors  that  relate  to  our  coaaun icat ins  what  we've 
heard  today. 

HR.  BELNICKt   Speaking  for  the  Senate 
^   Coaalttee*  we'll  only  be  discussing  your  testlaony  with 
those  on  the  staff  of  our  Coaaittee  that  need  to  know. 


Beyond  that*  what  you  should  or  should  not  do  with  your 


testiaonyv  you  should  be  guided*  in  our  view*  solely  by 

12 


your  counse  I  . 

I  want  to  thank  you  for  appearing  here  today 
and  for  giving  us  testlaony. 

Is  there  anything  that  you  want  to  add? 

THE  UITNESSI   I  can't  think  of  anything  I've 
left  out  today. 

HR.  BELNICKt   Mr.  Treanor*  did  you  want  to  ask 
any  questions? 


ALDERSOM  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC 
20  F  ST.,  M.W..  WASHINGTON,  D.C  20001     (202)  628-9300 


341 


123 


HR.  TREANORt   I  have  no  questions*  thank  yoo. 
HR.  BELNICKt   Thanh  you  for  your  cooperation. 
THE  UlTNESSt   You're  Melccne. 
(Whereupon*  at  3t45  p.a.*  the  taking  of  the 
instant  deposition  ceased.) 


Signature  of  the  witness 
SI6NE0  AND  ShORN  TO  before  ne  this 
day  of «  IS8 . 


1 
2 
3 

4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 

'*  Notary  Pub  I  ic 

^*      My  CoMMission  explresl 

15 

16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


ALOERSON  REPORTING  COMPANY.  INC. 
20  F  ST.,  N.W.,  WASHINGTON.  O.C.  20001     (202)  621-9300 


342 


CERTIFICATE  OF  REPORTER 

I,     JANE  w.  BEACH ,  the  officer 

>fore  whom  the  foregoing  deposition  was  ^.aken,  do  hereby  certify 
that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the  foregoing  deposition 

was  duly  sworn  by    ME ;  that  the  testimony  of 

said  witness  was  taken  by  me  to  the  best  of  my  ability  and  thereafter 
reduced  to  typewriting  under  my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a 
true  record  of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am   neither 
counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by  any  of  the  parties  to  the 
action  in  which  this  deposition  was  taken,  and  further  that  I  am  not 
a  relative  or  employee  of  amy  attorney  or  counsel  employed  by  the 
parties  thereto,  nor  financially  or  otherwise  interested  in  the 
utcome  of  the  action. 

NOTARY  PUBLIC 
My  commission  expires // ■■  ILI  ~  /  / . 


343 


EOZRAVEL 

8206  LEESBURG  PIKE/SUITE  202/VIENNA,  VA  221 80 


NAPIER /SHIRLEY  A 


STANFORD  TECHNOLOGY  TRADING  GRP 
ATTN SMS  SHIRLEY  NAPIER 
8615  WESTWOOD  CENTER  DR 
VIENNA  VA    22160 


INT 


OATC 

AUG   25    1986 


INVOICE 

9690 


ACCOUNT:    300 


26  AUG  86  -  TUESDAY 
PRESIDENTIAL   831  COACH  CLASS 

LV:  WASH/DULLES         925A  CONFIRMED 

AR:  MIAMI  1155A 

AIRPORT  BOARDING  PASSES  ONLY 

24  HR  EMRGNCY  NMR  800-645-9360/NY  STATE  800-732-9639 
♦♦♦THANKYOU  FOR  BOOKING  BT  TRAVEL. 
CHANGES  COULD  RESULT  IN  HIGHER  FARE 

COMPARED  TO  THE  FULL  FARE  THIS  REPRESENTS  A  SAVINGS  OF  ♦   301.00 

7652493566   CARD  99.00 


TICKET  NUMBER/S* 
NAPIER/SHIRLEY  A 


AIR  TRANSPORTATION 


91.67   TAX  7.33   TTL 

SUB  TOTAL 

CREDIT  CARD  PAYMENT 
AMOUNT  DUE 


99 ,  00 

99.00 

99.00- 

.00 


703-790-0460 


344 


BT-ffiAVEL 

8206  LEESBURG  PIKE;SUITE  202/VIENNA.  VA  22 1  80 
STANFORD    TECHNOLOGY    TRADING   GRP    INT 
ATTN: MS    SHIRLEY    NAPIER 
6615   WESTWOOD   CENTER   DR 
VIENNA    VA         22180 


NAPIER/SHIRLEY    A 


DATE  WVOCE 

AUG  25  1986         9691 


26  AUG  86  -  TUESDAY 
UNITED         888  SPCL  CLASS 
LV«  MIAMI  129P 

AR:  WASH /DULLES        354P 


ACCOUNT:  300 


57 


CONFIRMED 


SEAT-  4C 


24  HR  EMRGNCY  NMR  800-645-9860/NY  STATE  800-732-'9639 
♦♦♦THANKYOU  FOR  BOOKING  BT  TRAVEL. 
CHANGES  COULD  RESULT  IN  HIGHER  FARE 

COMPARED  TO  THE  FULL  FARE  THIS  REPRESENTS  A  SAVINGS  OF  ♦   300.00 

TICKET  NUMBER/Si 
NAPIER/SHIRLEY  A  7652493567   CARD  100.00 


AIR  TRANSPORTATION 


92.60 


TAX          7. 40   TTL 

100.00 

SUB  TOTAL 

100.00 

CREDIT  CARD  PAYMENT 

100.00 

AMOUNT  DUE 

.00 

703-790-0460 


CUSTOMER    ITINERARY 


345 


^/^  I  ^^ — Firs!  Arrfc  i,--.-  r.'nni..  f.'...—.  t  '■  vfif-'i   :,;  £-,  n.,'.! 


I 


n 


PK  7OJ.3S6-4«01 


Mar.    26,       ,„86        ».-._„ 


PAT  TO  TMI     (-"aeVl 

otoe«  r..     i-asn 


— Ir  V,  '.:  .,i — 

Eiqht  tbQMs^nd— {"lyinRiTYTggg" 


tki^NMBicAiro.p 


fl.w. 


J    8,000.00 

^n  O  L  I  A  «  S 


LiJpstooi,  2i,^i:_ ji50i.q_EiOaii"  o  rei 


^f^€^ 


(^ j:o_5j.aoi,ai,;i:  g.Bouqe.oaN'  oioi  /oooo70oooo.'*^. 


346 


^ 


j:x 


,(^ 


^ 


347 


Cash  Transactions: 


$15,000.00 
3/26/86 


Cashed  two  checks  (#101  $7,000.00/#102  $8,000.00)  for 
Albert  Hakim  from  his  personal  account  at  First  American 
Bank. 


$16,000.00 
8/26/86 


He  was  waiting  for  a  $15,000.00  wire  transfer  to  his 
personal  account  when  it  came  (he  had  me  call  the  bank 
and  check  to  see  if  it  had  been  credited  to  his  account 
so  he  could  wirte  checks  on  it)  he  had  me  type  the  checks 
he  signed  them  and  then  he  asked  me  to  cash  them  at 
seperate  banks.   I  cashed  one  at  the  Vienna  branch  and 
the  other  at  the  Tysons  Corner  branch.   I  expressed  some 
concern  to  Mr.  Hakim  about  cashing  them  and  he  said  I 
didn't  have  anything  to  worry  about  unless  they  were  over 
$10,000.00.   I  cashed  them  and  gave  Albert  Hakim  the 
money.   He  left  that  night  or  the  next  morning  on  a  trip. 
I  don't  remember  where  he  was  going — Geneva  or  maybe  London. 
Tom  Clines  and  Rafael  Quintero  were  in  the  office  the  day 
I  cashed  the  checks.   I  don't  remember  where  the  wire 
tramsfer  came  from  -  I  assume  Switzerland. 


8/25/86  Bob  Dutton  was  trying  to  get  in  touch  with  Bill 
Cooper  (BC  was  coming  to  DC)  to  have  him  go  to  Micimi 
and  pick  up  documents.   Bob  was  leaving  on  a  trip  that 
night  and  was  having  a  problem  getting  in  touch  with 
Cooper.  •  RVS  was  traveling  and  I  had  very  little  to  do 
so  I  said  I  would  go  to  Miami  and  pick  up  the  documents. 
Bob  said  he  would  have  to  make  a  call.   He  did  and  came 
back  and  said  it  was  okay  if  I  went.   He  got  on  the  phone 
again  to  arrange  the  pick  up  and  I  made  my  reservations . 
At  this  point  he  told  me  I  would  be  picking  up  $16,000.00 
from  an  SAT  representative  possibly  Bill  Langton  but 
they  would  call  and  coordinate  with  me.   Later  in  the  day 
the  man  from  SAT  called  smd  told  me  how  to  recognize  him 
and  arranged  where  we  would  meet.   I  don't  remember  his 
name  but  I  believe  he  is  the  comptroller  for  SAT,  he 
hadn't  been  with  them  for  very  long.   On  the  26th  I  flew 
to  Miami,  met  the  man  -  we  went  into  a  lounge,  he  gave  me 
a  Federal  Express  envelope,  he  opened  it  and  showed  me 
the  money.   The  lounge  was  very  crowded  and  I  didn't  want 
take  the  money  out  and  count  it.   He  vouched  for  the 
amount  and  I  signed  a  receipt.   We  were  in  the  lounge 
maybe  20-25  minutes.   We  left  the  lounge  and  I  went  into 
the  ladies  room  and  counted  the  money  -  $16,000.00  in 
small  bills  -  I  don't  remember  if  there  was  anything 
higher  than  a  $20  bill.   I  came  back  to  Dulles  and  took 
the  money  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Bldg.   I  called 
Fawm  Hall  and  told  her  I  was  downstairs  and  had  an 
envelope  Ollie  was  waiting  for.   She  came  down,  took  tne 
envelope,  we  exchanged  a  few  words  and  I  left. 


348 


Travel : 


March  13-16,  1986:   London 

Accompanied  Mr.  Secord  to  attend  a  meeting  with 
a  Mr.  Khalid  Rasheed  concerning  a  consulting 
agreement  between  the  two.   I  was  there  to  take 
notes  and  draft  the  agreement.   No  definite 
agreement  was  agreed  upon,  I  never  wrote  up 
anything.   Mr.  Secord  and  Mr.  Rasheed  met 
together  privately.   I  don't  know  what  they 
discussed  at  these  meetings. 

Mr.  Secord  also  met  privately  with  David  Walker. 

April  29-30,  1986:   Miami 

Met  with  a  representative  of  the  Jamaican  govt, 
concerning  radios.   Present  at  this  meeting  was 
Mr.  Secord,  Mr.  Olmstead  and  myself.   Mr.  Secord 
asked  me  to  listen  carefully  but  not  take  notes 
and  write  it  up  after  the  meeting.   I  was  in  this 
meeting  for  approximately  20-25  minutes.   Two  men 
arrived  (ecurlier  I  was  told  they  would  be  coming 
that  they  were  with  Motorola)  and  Mr.  Secord  asked 
me  to  leave  and  return  to  Washington. 

August  26,  1986:     Miami 

Met  with  a  man  from  Southern  Air  Transport  and 
he  gave  me  $16,000.00  in  cash.   I  was  in  the 
Miami  Airport  about  an  hour,  return  to  Dulles, 
drove  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Bldg.  and  gave 
the  money  to  Fawn  Hall. 

Sept  23-26,  1986:    Geneva 

Met  Mr.  Secord  to  deliver  STTGI  stationery  and 
brochures  he  forgot  to  take  with  him. 


^^A/a1Um^    ^.  Jltf^ot../.^^ 


^//0/^V 


349 


V'^ 


UNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 

Congxtii  of  tije  Winittti  i^tatti 


To 


Shirley  Napier 


3340  Mansfield  Rd. 


Falls  Church,    VA ^^^^^^. 


$OrS(aant  to  lawful  authority,   YOU  ARE  HEREBY  COMMANDED   to 

tar  before  the    SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON  £ 
0'   IRAN    AND    THE    NICARAGUAN   OP  POST  ION 


appear  before  the    SELECT   COMMITTEE    ON    SECRET   MILITARY   ASSISTANCE 

to       ~  


\of  the 

Seriate  of  the  United  State;  on MiacfiiLJLQ .  W_a2, 

at 9:  30 o'clock    a.  m.,  at  their  committee  room  -Hart  Senate — 

Office  Buildinqf    9th  Floor ,  tJien  and  there 

to  testify  what  you  may  know  relative  to  the  subject  matters  under  con- 
sideration by  said  committee. 
Pursuant  to  Committee  Rule   6.  ■■■t.hla_aubBoena  directSL-aapearanCja— 

at   the   deposition   whose   notice   acrnrnpanies    it. Y.dii   miist.  hrinq 

with   vou   the   materials    listed    in    ftH-arhmftnt  A. — _ 


Jj^eml  faa  not.  as  you  wiU  answer  your  default  under  the  pains  and  pen- 
alties in  such  eases  mad«  and  provided. 

T^      apY  Select  Committee   staff  member  nr  U.S.    Mfirshal 

to  serve  and  return. 

6ibeii  under  my  hand,  by  order  of  the  committee,  this 

25     ^—.  Qf     March  __^  in  the  year  of  our 

Lord  one  thouetm  nine  hundredthndxSi.'Shtl^s^liSn 


vice  Chairman 
Warren  Rudman 


350 


UNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 
(Eangresfi  of  ttye  Hniteb  ^tatzs 


Notice  of 
Senate  Deposition 


Yq  Shirley  Napier 


_    ttrtrting: 


PUaae  take  nonce  that  at     9^30         o'clock  A^_m.,  on    March   30 

19   87  at  Hart  Senate  Office  Building,  9th  Floor 

of  the  staff  of  the  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan 
Opposition  of  the  Senate  of  the  United  States,  will  take  your  deposition  on  oral  examination 
concerning  what  you  may  know  relative  to  the  subject  matters  under  consideration  by  said 
Select  Committee.  The  deposition  will  be  taken  before  a  notary  public,  or  before  some  other 
officer  authorized  by  local  law  to  administer  oaths;  it  will  be  taken  pursuant  to  the  Select 
Committee's  rules,  a  copy  of  which  are  attached. 


(iiOtU  under  my  hand,  by  authority  vested  in  me  by 
the  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military 
Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan 
Opposition  on      March    2  5  iggj 


351 


ATTACHMENT  A 
Shirley  Napier 


The  respondent  shall  produce: 

1.   With  regard  to  any  activity  undertaken  by  any  corporation  or 
partnership  or  association  in  which  you  have  been  an  officer, 
director,  partner  or  employee,  all  materials  relating  to: 

a.  the  payment  of  and  service  provided  of  any  employee  or 
provider  of  any  personal  service,  including  consultants, 
advisors,  accountants,  bookkeepers,  shippers,  warehousers, 
travel  agents,  freight  forwarders,  attorneys,  and  tax  preparers, 
including  any  list  of  such  persons'  names,  addresses  or  phone 
numbers. 

b.  the  provision  of  any  communication  services,  including  but 
not  limited  to  telephone,  long  distance  phone,  mobile  phone, 
pager,  telex,  or  expedited  mail  services. 

c.  the  incorporation,  designation  of  officers  or  directors, 
stock  issuance,  stock  transfers,  capitalization,  financing, 
or  corporate  acts  of  any  corporation,  its  parent,  affiliated 
corporation  or  subsidiaries,  if  any,  foreign  or  domestic 
including  any  and  all  corporate  resolutions. 

d.  tax  records  of  any  kind  including  income  tax  returns  and 
supporting  documents,  filed  with  any  department  or  agency  of 
the  United  States,  any  State,  or  a  foreign  government. 

e.  accounting  records  showing  the  profitability,  net  worth, 
assets  or  liabilities. 

f.  the  provision  of  any  financial  services,  including  but 

not  limited  to  banking,  pension,  investment,  lending,  brokering, 
financing,  bookkeeping,  accounting  or  financial  advising 
services,  wherever  located. 

g.  the  receipt,  transfer  or  transportation  of  currency  or 
any  cash  equivalent  of  a  value  of  more  than  $1,000. 

h.   any  contract,  agreement,  or  consultant  arrangement  involving, 
or  any  compensation  from,  any  department  division  or  agency  of 
the  United  States,  any  State  or  political  subdivision  thereof, 
or  any  foreign  government  or  subdivision  thereof,  whether 
executed  or  not,  including  those  in  which  involvement  was 
limited  to  consulting,  advising,  or  discussing  such  event. 


352 


Page  Two 


i.   or  consisting  of  appointment  books,  phone  or  other 
comnunication  messages,  phone  number  compilations  or 
Lists,  diaries,  calendars  or  contemporaneous  records  of 
daily  activity  such  as  time  billings. 

j.   the  acquisition  by  any  person,  transfer  or  transportation, 
whether  by  purchase,  sale,  lease,  consianment  or  shipment, 
of: 

1.  any  weapon  or  ammunition  of  any  kind 

2.  any  supply  suitable  for  use  in  combat 

3.  any  air,  sea  or  ground  transportation  vehicle  or 
vessel 

including  but  not  limited  to  materials  relating  to  the  sources 
and  disposition  of  all  financing  and  payments  for  such  items. 

k.   travel  within,  to  or  from  Iran,  Israel,  Switzerland, 
Panama,  Bermuda,  Liberia,  Lichtenstein,  Hong  Kong,  the  Cayman 
Islands,  Portugal,  Denmark,  Saudi  Arabia,  El  Salvador,  Costa 
Rica,  Nicaragua,  Honduras  or  Guatemala,  by  any  officer,  dire&tor, 
agent,  employee,  or  provider  or  any  personal  services,  including 
but  not  limited  to  consultants,  advisors,  or  contractors. 

1.   any  communication  with  any  person  or  entity  in  any  of  the 
countries  in  (k)  above,  whether  in  writing,  telecommunication, 
radio  or  otherwise,  by  any  officer,  director,  agent,  employee 
or  provider  of  any  personal  service. 

m.   the  purchase,  sale,  provision,  transfer  or  transportation 
of  any  goods  or  services  within,  to  or  by  any  oerson  or  entity 
in  any  of  the  countries  in  (k)  above. 

2.  With  regard  to  any  activity  undertaken  personally  or  as  a 
consultant,  independent  contractor  or  in  any  other  capacity,  all 
materials  required  in  (1)  above. 

3.  All  materials  relating  to  any  of  the  individuals  or  entities  in 
Appendix  A  hereto. 

4.  All  materials  relating  to  any  American  citizen  held  hostage. 

5.  All  materials  relating  to  forces  opposing  the  government  of 
Nicaragua,  including  financial,  military  or  other  assistance  to 
such  forces,  whether  in  Nicaragua  or  elsewhere. 

The  term  "materials"  in  this  subpoena  includes  any  book,  check, 
cancelled  check,  correspondence,  communiciation,  document,  financial 
record,  recording  tape,  or  any  other  item  which  you  own  or  in 


353 


Paqe  Three 


any  way  have  in  your  custody  or  under  -our  control  or  that  of 

any  agent  of  yours,  iated,  created  on,  or  relating  to  any  date  since 

January  1,  1982. 

"or  any  questions  reqarding  this  subooena,  contact  Mark  Belnick 
at  (202)  224-9960. 


354 


APPENDIX  A 


Any  of  the  following  persons: 

Bermudez ,  Enrique 
Calero,  Adolf o 
Calero,  Mario 
Cameron,  Bruce 
Conrad,  Daniel  L. 
Cheunorro,  Pedro 
Cooper,  William  J. 
Clines ,  Thomas 
Cruz ,  Arturo 
Cruz,  Arturo,  Jr. 
de  Senarclens,  Jean 
Dutton,  Robert 
Fischer,  David 
Furmark,  Roy 
Gadd,  Richard 
Garnel,  Jose 
Ghorbanifar,  Manucher 
Gomez,  Francis 
Hakim,  Albert 
Hashemi ,  Cyrus 
Hull,  John 
Kashoggi ,  Adnan 
Kimche ,  David 
Ledeen,  Michael 
Lilac,  Robert 


Lilac,  Robert 

McMahon,  Steve 

McFarlane,  Robert 

F.  Andy  Messing,  Jr. 

Montes,  Oscar 

Nimrodi ,  Yaacov 

Nir,  Amiram 

North,  Oliver  L. 

Poindexter,  John 

Quintero,  Rafael 

Robelo,  Alfonso 

Robles,  Rodolfo 

Rodriguez ,  Felix  aka  Max  Gomez 

Rose,  Jose  Bueso 

Sacasa,  Marrio 

Sanchez,  Aristides 

Schwimmer,  Adolph  (Al) 

Secord,  Richard  V. 

Shackley,  Theodore 

Singlaub,  John  L. 

Soghanalian,  Sarkis 

Sommeriba,  Leonardo 

Wilson,  Edwin 

von  Marbod,  Erich. 

Zucker,  Willard  I. 


Any  person  employed  by,  acting  as  an  agent  for,  or 
representing: 

U.  S.  Air  Force 

Military  Airlift  Command 

Central  Intelligence  Agency 

National  Security  Council 

President's  Intelligence  Oversight  Board 

Federal  Aviation  Administration 

Geneva  Commercial  Registry 

Military  Reutilization  and  Material  Supply  Department, 
Portugal 

National  Armaments  Directorate,  Portugal 

Nugen-Hand  Bank,  Australia 

Overseas  Defense  Corp. 

Department  of  Defense 

Lloyd's  of  London 

any  agency,  division,  or  department  of  the  United  States 
government  with  responsibility  for  foreign  relations, 
for  intelligence  activities,  or  for  manufacturing, 
storing,  shipping,  selling,  transferring,  monitoring, 
or  accounting  for  any  arms,  munitions,  or  military 
personnel 

any  agency,  division,  or  department  of  the  government  of. 


355 


any  instrumentality  of,  or  any  national  of,  or  person 
located  in  Iran,  Israel,  Switzerland,  Panama,  Bermuda, 
Liberia,  Lichtenstein,  the  Cayman  Islands,  Portugal, 
Denmark,  Saudi  Arabia,  El  Salvador,  Costa  Rica, 
Nicaragua,  Honduras,  or  Guatemala 

Any  of  the  following  entities,  or  any  entity  whose  name  is 
as  listed,  but  followed  by  Inc.,  Corp.,  Corporation,  Ltd., 
Co.,  Company,  or  SA. ,  doing  business  in  any  location 
whatever: 

ACE 

Airmach,  Inc. 

Albon  Values 

Alpha  Serivces,  S.A. 

Amalgamated  Commercial  Enterprises,  Inc. 

American  Marketing  and  Consulting,  Inc. 

American  National  Management  Corporation 

Baggett  Transportation  Company 

CSF 

CSF  Investments  Ltd. 

CSFR  Inv.  Ltd. 

Chester  Co. 

Compagnie  de  Services  Fiduciares  SA 

Corporate  Air  Services,  Inc. 

Dataguard  International 

Defex  -  Portugal 

Dolmy  Business,  Inc. 

EAST  Inc. 

EATSCO 

Eagle  Aviation  Services  and  Transportation 

Egyptian  American  Transport  Services,  Inc. 

Energy  Resources  International 

Fifteenth  of  September  League 

Gulf  Marketing  Consultants 

Hyde  Park  Holdings 

Hyde  Park  Square  Corporation 

I.  B.  C. 

IDEA 

Intercontinental  Technology 

International  Research  and  Trade 

Kisan 

Lake  Resources  Corp. 

Lake  Resources,  Inc. 

Lilac  Associates 

Maule  Air,  Inc. 

Missurasata 

NRAF  Inc. 

National  Defense  Council  Foundation 

National  Liberation  Army 

N.  S.  I. 

Nicaraguan  Democratic  Force  (FDN) 

Nicaraguan  Democratic  Union 

Nicaraguan  Development  Council 


356 


Nicaraguan  Freedom  Fund,  Inc. 

Nicaraguan  Revolutionary  Armed  Forces  (FARM) 

Project  Democracy 

Queen  Shipping 

R.  M.  Equipment  Co. 

Revolutionary  Democratic  Alliance  (ARDE) 

S  &  S  Trading  Corp. 

SOME  Aviation 

Secord  Associates 

Southern  Air  Transport,  Inc. 

Southern  Bloc  Opposition  (BOS) 

Stanford  Technology,  Inc. 

Stanford  Technology  Trading,  Inc 

Stanford  Technology  Trading  Associates,  Inc. 

Systems  Services  International 

Trans  World  Arms  Inc. 

Udall  Corporation 

Udall  Research  Corporation 

Udall  Resources,  Inc.,  S.A. 

United  Nicaraguan  Opposition  (UNO) 


357 


OTTRAVEL 

8206  LEESBURG  PIKE/SUII£.2fl2iy'ENNA.  VA  22180 
STANFORD    TECHNOLOGY    TRADING   GRP    INT  " 
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EASTERN       197  SPCL  CLASS 
LV:  WASH/NATIONAL      507P 
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TICKET  NUMBER/S« 
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119.44   TAX  9.56   TTL 

SUB  TOTAL 

CREDIT  CARD  PAYMENT 
AMOUNT  DUE 


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129.00 
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703  7900460 


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8206  LEESBURG  PtKE/SUITE  202/VIENNA.  VA  22 1 80 


STANFORB  TECHNOLOGY  TRAOINO  ORP  INT 
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7632493857 


CARD 


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SUB  TOTAL 

CREDIT  CARD  PAYMENT 
AMOUNT  DUE 


2064.00 


2064.00 
2064.00 
2064.00- 
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CUSTOMER  ITINERARY 


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UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  BARBARA  NEWINGTON 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Tuesday,  May  12,  1987 

Deposition  of  BARBARA  NEWINGTON,  called  for  examination! 

pursuant  to  notice  of  deposition,  at  the  offices  of  the 

Senate  Select  Committee,  Suite  901,  Hart  Senate  Office 

Building,  at  10:02  a.m.  before  KAREN  ILSEMANN,  a  Notary 

Public  within  and  for  the  District  of  Columbia,  when  were 

present : 

W.  THOMAS  McGOUGH,  JR.,  ESQ. 

Associate  Counsel 

United  State  Senate  Select 

Committee  on  Secret  Military 

Assistance  to  Iran  and  the 

Nicaraguan  Opposition 

THOMAS  FRYMAN,  ESQ. 
KENNETH  BUCK,  ESQ. 
Staff  Counsel 
United  States  House  of 

Representatives  Select 

Committee  to  Investigate 

Covert  Arms  Transactions 

With  Iran 


'Ar 


proiriiions  of  LO.  12336 
Hriu>,  National  Security  Council 


UNCLASSIFIED 


--   continued 


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1      APPEARANCES  (Continued) 
2 


RICHARD  A.  MORGAN,  ESQ. 
JOHN  B.  REARDEN,  JR.,  ESQ. 
Winthrop,  Stimson,  Putnam 
&  Roberts 

4  460  Summer  Street 
Stamford,  Connecticut   06901 

5  On  behalf  of  the  Deponent. 


ALSO  PRESENT: 


VICTOR  ZANGLA 
Associate  Staff  Member 

8  United  States  House  of 
Representatives  Select 

9  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions 
With  Iran 


UNCLASSIRED 


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C  0  N  T  E  N  T  S 


Barbara  Newington 

by  Mr.  McGough 

by  Mr.  Horgan 

by  Mr.  Fryman 

by  Mr.  McGough 


NUMBER 
Exhibit  1 
Exhibit  2 
Exhibit  3 
Exhibit  4 
Exhibit  5 
Exhibit  6 
Exhibit  7 
Exhibit  8 
Exhibits  9  and  10 


EXHIBITS 


UNCUSSIRED 


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EXAMI NATION 


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unde 
byO. 


.Sir  o 


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PROCEEDINGS 

MR.  HORGAN:   For  the  record,  Mrs.  Barbara 
Newington  is  appearing  here  today  pursuant  to  the  House 
Select  Committee's  subpoena  dated  February  24,  1987  and 
Judge  Robinson's  immunity  order  No.  87-0158  dated  May  4, 
1987,  and  pursuant  to  Senate  Select  Committee  dated 
March  23,  1987  and  Judge  Robinson's  immunity  order 
No.  87-163  dated  May  5,  1987. 

You  may  proceed . 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Thank  you. 

Mrs.  Newington,  good  morning.   My  name  is  Tom 
McGough.   We  are  going  to  swear  you  in  a  moment,  but  first 
let  me  explain  who  we  are  sitting  here  at  the  table. 

As  you  know,  there  is  a  joint  investigation  being 
conducted  by  a  Senate  Select  Committee  and  a  House  Select 
Committee.   I  am  Associate  Counsel  with  the  Senate  Select 
Committee. 

Seated  to  my  right  is  Mr.  Thomas  Fryman,  Mr.  Vic 
Zangla,  and  Mr.  Ken  Buck,  all  of  whom  are  in  various 
capacities  with  the  House  Select  Committee.   We  are  taking 
the  deposition  jointly  to  spare  you  making  another  trip  to 
Washington,  as  has  been  our  practice  so  far. 


provisions  cf  LO.  I^Sj 
National  Security  Council 


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I  will  be  asking  most  of  the  questions.   If  at  any 
point  you  have  any  questions  or  don't  understand  a  question 
that  I  direct  to  you,  just  stop  me  and  I  will  be  glad  to  try 
to  clarify  it  for  you. 

Your  counsel  has  provided  to  us  the  records  I  have 
here,  pursuant  to  the  subpoena.   If  you  feel  there  is  a 
record  or  something  that  might  refresh  your  recollection, 
feel  free  to  ask  me  and  we'll  try  to  dig  it  out  and  let  you 
take  a  look  at  it. 

With  that  in  mind,  why  don't  we  swear  the  witness 
and  go  from  there? 
Whereupon, 

BARBARA  NEWINGTON 
was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  first  been  duly  sworn  by 
the  notary  public,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 
EXAMINATION 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Mrs.  Newington,  let  me  start  by  asking  you  just 
some' general  background  questions. 

What  is  your  present  home  address? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 G  r  e  e  n  w  i  c  h , 
0    And  how  long  have  you  resided  at  that  address? 


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uNtmsm 

A  Thirty-three  or   four  years. 


0  Do  you   have   an   office   address   or   any   other 

principal    residence? 

A  No. 

0    Are  you  employed  in  any  remunerative  capacity  at 
this  point? 

A    No. 

0    I  understand  that  you  are  a  widow. 

A    Yes . 

0    What  was  your  husband's  name? 

A    John  Newington. 

0    When  did  he  pass  away? 

A    In  1979. 

0    I  believe  counsel  has  produced  copies  for  us, 
copies  of  tax  returns  for  1984  and  1985  that  reflect  a  scial 
security  number  of 

Is  that,  as  best  you  recollect,  your  social 
security  number? 

A    That's  correct. 

0    We  are  here  to  discuss  contributions  that  were 
made  to  various  organizations  affiliated  with  a  man  named 
Carl  "Spitz"  Channell  and  certain  other  people  that  worked 


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with  or  about  him. 

Let  me  go  about  back  a  little  bit,  however,  and 
ask  you  initially  about  an  organization  called  Western  Goals 
and  how  you  first  became  affiliated  or  aware  of  that 
organization.   So  let's  start  at  the  beginning  of  your 
connection  with  Western  Goals. 

A    This  was  about  1978  when  it  was  formed.   My 
husband  formed  it  with  Congressman  Lawrence  MacDonald. 
That's  when  it  began. 

0    At  the  time  it  was  formed,  did  your  husband  have 
any  official  capacity  or  title  with  Western  Goals? 
A    No 

0    Did  there  come  a  time  when  you  took  on  an  official 
capacity? 

A    Only  as  a  member  of  the  Advisory  Board. 
0    When  did  you  become  a  member  of  the  Advisory 
Board? 

A    In  1979. 

0    Are  you  still  affiliated  or  on  the  Advisory  Board 
of  Western  Goals? 
A    No. 
0    When  did  you  step  down  or  sever  your  connection 


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1  with  that  organization? 

2  A    When  the  Congressman  died  in  the  air  crash, 

3  Western  Goals  just  fell  apart,  so  that  I  was  supporting  it 

4  for  a  couple  of  years  just  to  keep  it  going.   And  then  when 

5  Mr.  Channell  came  into  the  picture,  he  showed  interest  in 

6  taking  it  over  as  we  were  looking  for  a  leader  to  carry  it 

7  on,  and  so  he  took  it  over  in  about  1985. 

8  0    Did  you  continue  your  affiliation  with  Western 

9  Goals  after  Mr.  Channell  took  it  over? 

10  A    Just  for  about  a  year;  yes. 

11  0    So  I'm  just  trying  to  count  a  year  ahead.   Can  we 

12  say  that  you  severed  ties  or  moved  away  from  Western  Goals 

13  sometime  in  1986? 

14  A    Yes. 

15  0    What  did  you  understand  the  purpose  of  Western 

16  Goals  to  be? 

17  "    A    It  was  to  promote  and  further  the  principles  of 

18  democracy  and  to  strengthen  and  to  rebuild  these  principles 

19  so  that  totalitarianism  would  be  impossible  in  this 

20  country. 

21  0    Am  I  correct  in  saying  that  Western  Goals  was  a 

22  tax-exempt  organization? 


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A    That's  correct. 

0    Can  you  give  me  an  example  of  some  of  the  projects 
that  Western  Goals  did  in  the  course  of  its  existence? 

A    It  published  pamphlets  on  the  subject  of  the 
Constitution  and  documentaries  on  togrriaw.   Anything  that 
would  get  it  before  the  public's  eye,  media  and  so  forth. 

0    Can  you  give  me  an  estimate  of  what  Western  Goals' 
annual  budget  was? 

A    It  was  probably  around  $90,000  a  year. 

0    Did  you  support  Western  Goals  financially? 

A    Yes.   Not  solely,  but  a  substantial  contributor; 
yes . 

Q    Did  you  continue  that  financial  support  after 
Mr.  Channell  took  over  Western  Goals? 

A    In  a  very  minor  way. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  when  you  first  met  Mr.  Channell? 

A    Around  February  of  1985. 

0    And  in  what  context  did  you  meet  him? 

A    I  had  been  familiar  with  his  organization  and  he 
had  heard  of  me,  I  guess,  through  Western  Goals  and  asked  me 
to  have  an  appointment  to  meet  him  in  New  York  City. 

Q    Had  he  at  that  time  assumed  control  of  Western 


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1   ti       1  Goals? 

2  A    No. 

3  0    You  said  that  you  had  been  familiar  with  his 

4  organization. 

5  Which  organization  did  you  associate  him  with? 

6  A    The  American  Conservative  Trust. 

7  0    How  did  you  become  familiar  with  American 

8  Conservative  Trust? 

9  A    Former  years,  during  the  time  my  husband  was 

10  alive,  we  contributed  to  congressional  races,  conservative 

11  congressional  races  through  their  organization. 

12  0    So  you  had  made  contributions  to  ACT  before  you 

13  had  personally  met  Mr.  Channell? 

14  A    Yes. 

15  Q    VJho  requested  the  meeting  with  Mr.  Channell 

16  initially?  Did  he  suggest  it  to  you,  or  did  you  suggest  it 

17  to  him? 

18  A    He  arranged  it.   He  called  me  and  made  the  date. 

19  0    And  did  you  in  fact  meet  with  him? 

20  A     Yes. 

21  Q    And  where  did  that  meeting  take  place? 

22  A    At  the  Plaza  in  New  York  City. 


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1  0    As  you  recollect,  that  was  in  February  of  1985? 

2  A    That's  correct. 

3  0    Was  anyone  else  with  Mr.  Channell  at  that  time  at 

4  that  meeting? 

5  A     (Nods  in  the  negative.) 

6  Q    I  guess  you  answered  no  to  that  answer. 

7  If  you  can  recall  at  that  first  meeting,  did 

8  Mr.  Channell  describe  to  you  the  organizations  with  which  he 

9  was  then  affiliated? 

10  A    No. 

11  0    What  did  you  discuss  at  that  meeting? 

12  A    More  about  Congressman  MacDonald  and  his  books  and 

13  so  forth,  and  what  his  organizations  were  trying  to 

14  accomplish. 

15  Q    By  his  organizations,  do  you  mean  Congressman 

16  MacDonald's  organizations? 

17  A    Yes. 

18  0    Did  you  talk  about  Western  Goals? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  0    Did  you  discuss  with  Mr.  Channell  the  prospect  of 

21  his  assuming  some  position  with  Western  Goals? 

22  A    Yes.   Not  at  that  particular  meeting,  but  later. 


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Q    Did  Mr.  Channell  describe  for  you  any  of  the 
organizations  that  he  was  then  associated  with,  whether  it 
be  ACT  or  — 

A    Not  in  any  great  length;  no. 

Q    Did  he  solicit  any  financial  contributions  from 
you  at  that  lunch? 

A    No. 

0    Did  there  come  a  time  when  Mr.  Channell  did  in 
fact  solicit  money  from  you? 

A    Yes. 

0    Can  you  put  it  any  time  frame  after  your  February 
meeting  with  him? 

A    It's  hard  to  say  just  from  follow-up  sequence,  but 
fairly  shortly  after  that. 

Q    Can  you  give  me  an  idea  when  in  1985  Mr.  Channell 
assumed  control  of  Western  Goals? 

A     It  was  late  1985. 

0    So  that  he  began  to  solicit  money  from  you  or 
contributions  from  you  prior  to  the  time  that  he  actually 
took  a  role  with  Western  Goals? 

A    Yes. 

Q    What  he  solicit  money  for?   What  did  he  ask  you  to 


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contribute  money  to? 

MR.  MORGAN:   At  the  outset? 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Yes,  at  the  outset. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

0    I  am  trying  to  get  an  idea  of  how  the  relationship 
evolved,  and  I'm  interested  in  the  early  phase  at  this 
point. 

A    He  was  interested  in  putting  ads  in  the 
newspapers,  and  television  spots,  in  support  of  the 
Nicaraguan  situation. 

0    Did  he  talk  to  you  about  where  these  ads  would  be 
aired? 

A    Yes,  from  time  to  time. 

Q    What  did  he  say  about  that? 

A    Washington  newspapers.  New  York  newspapers, 
Chicago. 

0    For  what  organization  was  he  soliciting 
contributions? 

A  It  was  never  clear  until  he  asked  me  to  make  a 
check  out  to  so-and-so.  I  never  particularly  knew  which 
organization  was  which. 

0    In  going  through  your  records,  you  ultimately  made 


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1  checks  out  to  a  number  of  his  organizations,  including  one 

2  called  ACTSEF,  American  Conservative  Trust  State  Election 

3  Fund;  later  Sentinel;  and  still  later  ATAC  which  is 

4  Anti-Terrorism  American  Committee;  and  also  a  number  of 

5  checks  made  out,  or  contributions  made  to  the  National 

6  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty,  NEPL. 

7  What  did  you  understand,  if  anything,  about  the 

8  differences  among  the  various  organizations  Mr.  Channel! 

9  solicited  for? 

10  A    I  understood  very  little  about  them. 

11  0    Did  you  view  them  essentially  as  interchangeable? 

12  A    Yes.   And  I  didn't  question  him. 

13  0    In  this  early  phase  —  let  me  put  a  finite  point 

14  on  it  —  did  there  come  a  time  when  you  began  to  have 

15  contact  with  people  at  the  National  Endowment  for 

16  Preservation  of  Liberty,  NEPL,  other  than  Mr.  Channell? 

17  A    No. 

18  0    Were  you  ever  solicited  by  a  man  by  the  name  of 

19  Chris  Smith? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  0    Can  you  tell  me  how  you  came  into  contact  with 

22  Mr.    Smith? 


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1  A    He  was  perhaps  the  first  contact  to  Channell's 

2  organizations  early  on,  and  he  was  the  one  who  solicited  for 

3  the  conservative  races  in  the  very,  very  beginning. 

4  0    Now,  you  say  "solicited  for  the  conservative 

5  races."   What  do  you  mean  by  that? 

6  A    Well,  in  support  of  the  conservative  congressional 

7  races. 

8  0    Do  you  associate  Mr.  Smith  with  any  particular 

9  organization  operated  or  affiliated  with  Mr.  Channel,  or  do 

10  you  just  view  him  as  part  of  the  pool  or  organizations  that 

11  he  had? 

12  MR.  MORGAN:   And  this  is  your  understanding  at  the 

13  time. 

14  THE  WITNESS:   Yes. 

15  It  wasn't  clear  at  all  what  he  was  representing. 

16  MR.  MORGAN: 

17  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

18  0    But  you  knew  that  he  worked  for  Mr.  Channell? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  Q    And  you  also  knew  that  he  was  soliciting  money  for 

21  political  races,  congressional  races? 

22  A    Yes. 


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^   -.i       1  0    Do  you  recall  which,  if  any,  of  the  organizations 

2  Mr.  Smith  told  you  to  make  your  contributions  to? 

3  A    It's  hard  to  recall. 

4  0    If  you  don't  recall,  that's  understandable. 

5  A    Yeah.   There  were  so  many  different  ones. 

6  0    Other  than  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Smith,  did  anyone 

7  else  associated  with  Mr.  Channell  solicit  contributions  from 

8  you 

9  A    No. 

10  0    Did  you  have  contact  with  anyone  else  at 

11  Mr.  Channell's  organizations? 

12  Let  me  give  you  a  few  names  and  see  if  it's 

13  helpful  at  all.   Mr.  Daniel  Conrad. 

14  A    Yes,  later  on. 

15  0    That  was  later? 

16  A    (Nods  in  the  affirmative.) 

17  0    1  imagine  you  did  have  contact  with  Linda  Guell 

18  through  Western  Goals. 

19  A    Yes,  that's  right. 

20  0    Did  you  have  contact  with  James  McLaughlin? 

21  A    No. 

22  0    Did  you  have  contact  with  Chris  Littledale? 


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1   O        1  A     No. 

2  0    There  came  a  time  in  June  of  1985  when  you  made  a 

3  trip  to  Washington,  D.C.  at  the  invitation  of  the  National 

4  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty;  is  that  right? 

5  A    That's  correct. 

6  0    Let  me  show  you  what  we  can  mark  as  Deposition 

7  Exhibit  No.  1,  a  document  produced  by  you.   And  it  appears 

8  to  be  a  bill  or  an  invoice  from  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel,  noting 

9  arrival  and  departure  on  June  25th  —  I'm  sorry;  arrival  on 

10  June  25,  1985  and  departure  on  June  26th. 

11  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  1 

12  identified.) 

13  (Document  handed  to  the  witness.) 

14  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That's  probably  a  better  copy  than 

15  your  counsel  has,  so  why  don't  work  from  that? 

16  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

17  0    Was  that,  in  fact,  the  trip  that  we  were 

18  discussing? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  Q    Can  you  tell  me  how  that  trip  came  about,  who 

21  invited  you,  and  what  the  purpose  was? 

22  A    Yes.   Mr.  Channell  thought  he  had  arranged  a  visit 


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1  with  the  President  and  a  briefing  with  Oliver  North. 

2  0    What  happened  when  you  did  in  fact  arrive  in 

3  Washington,  as  best  you  can  remember  that? 

4  A    I  was  met  by  Mr.  Channell  at  the  Hay-Adams  and  he 

5  took  me  over  to  the  briefing,  to  the  White  House. 

6  0    And  what  occurred  at  the  briefing  or  at  the  white 

7  House? 

8  A    I  met  Oliver  North  in  the  National  Security 

9  Council  offices  and  he  produced  charts  and  slides  and  films 

10  of  what  was  going  on  in  Nicaragua,  and  just  explained  the 

11  situation  and  their  needs. 

12  0    What  did  you  understand  the  purpose  to  be?  Why 

13  were  they  briefing  you  on  this? 

14  A    I  really  don't  know  why.   I  wasn't  even  thinking 

15  about  that  at  the  moment. 

16  0    Did  you  know  why  Mr.  Channell  invited  you  to 

17  Washington? 

18  A    Just  because  he  wanted  me  to  be  more  alert  as  to 

19  what  was  happening. 

20  0    Had  he,  up  to  that  point,  solicited  contributions 

21  for  support  of  either  television  ads  or  — 

22  A    Yes,  up  to  that  point. 


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0    For  Nicaragua? 

A    For  Nicaragua. 

0  Had  he  solicited  direct  contributions  to  the 
contras,  the  Nicaraguan  Democratic  Resistance,  at  that 
point? 

A    No. 

0  So  up  the  point  of  this  White  House  meeting,  as 
far  as  Nicaragua  was  concerned,  the  only  contributions  he 
had  solicited  were  for  television  advertisements. 

A    That's  correct. 

0    Now,  you  met  with  Colonel  North  in  the  National 
Security  Council  offices.   Was  anyone  else  present  while  you 
were  meeting  with  Colonel  North? 

A    Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Channell. 

0    Did  they  actually  sit  in  on  the  briefing  that 
Colonel  North  gave  you? 

A    Yes. 

0  Was  this  done  in  Colonel  North's  own  office,  as 
best  you  can  tell,  or  was  it  done  in  a  conference  room? 

A    In  a  conference  room. 

0    Did  Colonel  North  show  any  displays,  any  maps, 
slides,  lists,  anything  like  that? 


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1   ;i       1         A    Yes. 

2  0    What  did  he  show  you? 

3  A    He  showed  where  the  airstrips  were  and  the  general 

4  problems  of  the  soldiers  and  so  forth. 

5  0    Did  he  discuss  the  needs  of  the  Nicaraguan 

6  resistance  at  that  point? 

7  A    Yes,  he  did. 

8  0    what  did  he  tell  you  that  they  needed? 

9  A    They  needed  equipment  and  food  and  weapons  and 

10  everything  to  keep  them  going. 

11  0    Did  Colonel  North  solicit  a  contribution  or  ask 

12  you  to  help  supply  — 

13  A    No. 

14  MR.  HORGAN:   Let  him  finish  his  question.   He  has 

15  a  time  frame  in  mind. 

16  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

17  "    0    At  this  meeting,  did  he  solicit  you  or  otherwise 

18  ask  you  to  help  fulfill  the  needs  of  the  Nicaraguan 

19  Resistance? 

20  A    No. 

21  Q     Did  he  make  any  references,  either  direct  or 

22  indirect  to  Mr.  Channell's  ability  to  solicit  contributions 


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1  for  those  purposes  and  provide  them  to  the  Nicaraguan 

2  Resistance? 

3  A     No. 

4  0    Did  he  mention  Mr.  Channell's  role  at  all? 

5  A     No. 

6  Q    Do  you  recall  —  you  mentioned  weapons  as  being 

7  one  of  the  items  he  discussed  at  that  briefing. 

8  Do  you  recall  any  specific  kinds  of  weapons  being 

9  discussed? 

10  A    No. 

11  0    Do  you  recall  whether  he  discussed  specific  prices 

12  for  weapons? 

13  A    No . 

14  0    Up  until  that  point,  had  you  met  Colonel  North 

15  before? 

16  A    No. 

17  "    0    Up  until  that  point,  had  you  met  Mr.  Miller 

18  before? 

19  A    No. 

20  0    Was  Mr.  Miller  there  when  you  arrived  that  morning 

21  in  Washington? 

22  A    I  believe  so. 


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0    What  did  you  understand  Mr.  Miller's  role  or 
assignment  to  be? 

A    I  didn't  know  what  it  was  at  that  time. 

0    Do  you  recall  how  he  was  introduced  to  you?  That 
is,  what  his  affiliation  was? 

A    No.   Just  by  name. 

0    Do  you  recall  any  mention  of  International 
Business  Communications  or  IBC  at  that  time? 

A    No. 

0    Up  until  that  meeting,  had  you  ever  met  Ronald 
Reagan? 

A    Yes. 

0    On  how  many  occasions  or  on  what  occasion? 

A    Well,  it  went  back  to  1964.   And  he  came  to 
Greenwich  and  my  husband  and  I  met  him  at  a  private  party 
given  for  him.   And  that's  the  only  time  I  previously 
actually  met  him,  but  we  had  correspondence,  letters  and  so 
forth. 

0    Am  I  correct  that  one  of  the  purposes  of  your  trip 
to  Washington  in  June  1985  was  perhaps  to  meet  Mr.  Reagan, 
or  was  it  just  for  the  briefing  with  Colonel  North? 

A    It  definitely  was  for  the  briefing  and  a 


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1  possibility  of  meeting  with  the  President. 

2  0    What  happened  after  the  briefing?   You  left  the 

3  I  White  House  at  that  point? 

4  A    Yes. 

5  0    While  at  the  White  House  or  in  the  National 

6  Security  Office,  did  you  meet  any  other  government  official? 

7  A    No. 

8  0    Not  John  Poindexter  or  Robert  McFarlane  or  any 

9  other  representative  of  the  government? 

10  A    No. 

11  0    Where  did  you  go  after  you  left  the  briefing? 

12  A    Came  back  to  the  hotel  and  subsequently  had  dinner 

13  at  the  hotel. 

14  0    Who  was  present  at  dinner? 

15  A    Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Channell.   I'm  not  sure  about 

16  Mr.  Conrad,  whether  he  was  there  or  not.   It's  possible  that 

17  he  was. 

18  0    Was  the  dinner  held  in  a  private  room  or  was  it 

19  out  in  the  restaurant? 

20  A    In  the  restaurant. 

21  0    What  did  you  discuss  at  dinner,  if  you  can  recall? 

22  A    More  about  the  Nicaraguan  situation  —  if  I  could 


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1  help  in  some  way. 

2  Q    Did  they  ask  you  to  contribute  to  the  cause  of  the 

3  Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

4  A    Not  specifically  that  way,  but  generally. 

5  0    Can  you  recall  how  they  put  it  generally,  or  give 

6  me  an  idea  how  they  put  it  generally? 

7  A    I  really  can't  remember  any  particular  questioning 

8  or  asking  me.   It  was  just  more  to  clue  me  in  to  the  needs 

9  again.   I  just  assumed  that  I  knew  what  they  wanted,  but 

10  j   they  really  didn't  come  out  and  say,  I  want  so  much  money 

11  for  this  or  that. 

12  0    I  see.   But  they  would  refer  back  to  the  briefing 

13  that  Colonel  North  gave  you? 

14  A    That's  right. 

15  0    And  you  said  you  knew  what  they  wanted,  and  what 

16  they  wanted  were  contributions;  is  that  right? 

17  A    That's  correct. 

18  0    Did  you  discuss,  or  did  they  discuss  or  even  imply 

19  what  the  contributions  would  be  used  for? 

20  A    Not  at  that  time. 

21  0    who  actually  was  doing  the  soliciting?  You've  got 

22  Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Channel  there.   Can  you  break  it  down  as 


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between  them  at  all? 

A    Not  particularly. 

MR.  MORGAN:   Excuse  me. 

(Counsel  confers  with  witness.) 

THE  WITNESS:   May  I  clarify  my  answer? 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

0    Sure. 

A    Mr.  Channell  was  the  main  solicitor,  always. 

0    Do  you  recall  being  solicited  at  all  by 
Mr.  Miller? 

A    No. 

0    But  he  was  present  at  this  dinner  when 
Mr.  Channell  was  soliciting? 

A    Yes. 

0    By  the  time  that  you  had  arrived  at  this  dinner, 
had  it  become  apparent  that  you  were  not  going  to  be  able  to 
meet  with  Mr.  Reagan  on  your  trip  to  Washington?  Or  what 
was  the  status  of  that  at  that  point? 

A    No.   There  was  a  possibility  that  I  would  the  next 
day. 

0    In  your  discussions  with  Mr.  Channell  and 
Mr.  Miller  about  the  needs  of  the  contras,  did  they  discuss 


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military  needs  as  well  as  non-military  needs? 

A    Very  little  about  the  military  needs  to  me.   It 
was  more  humanitarian. 

Q    You  say  very  little.   Do  you  have  a  specific 
recollection  of  them  discussing  any  military  needs? 

A    Only  that  they  needed  weapons,  but  it  was  mainly 
uniforms  and  food  and  equipment. 

0    And  you  say  that  they  did  not  really  solicit  your 
support  directly  for  any  particular  type  of  assistance  to 
the  contras  at  that  time? 

A    Not  at  that  time. 

0    But  you  understood  that  they  were  soliciting 
contributions  from  you. 

A    Well,  you  sensed  that. 

0  Did  you  sense  or  understand  what  they  intended  to 
do  with  any  contribution  that  you  might  give?  Again,  we're 
talking  about  the  June  1985  meeting. 

A    Not  at  that  time. 

0    Did  you  meet  with  anyone  else  that  evening? 
Again,  this  is  the  same  evening  that  you  had  the  briefing 


with  Colonel  North. 


Yes. 


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1  0    And  who  else  was  there?  Who  else  came  there,  I 

2  should  say. 

3  A    Mr.  Fischer  and  Mr,  Channell  and  Mr.  Miller  came 

4  later  that  evening. 

5  0    Was  that  in  the  restaurant  again,  or  where  did 

6  that  happen? 

7  A    No.   That  was  in  the  suite. 

8  0    And  Mr.  Fischer  --  what  was  his  —  how  was  he 

9  described  to  you?  What  were  you  told  about  what  he  did? 

10  A    I  really  was  not  told  anything  about  him  —  he  was 

11  just  there  —  and  that  he  would  inform  me  of  the  protocol  in 

12  a  meeting  with  the  President. 

13  0    And  what  did  he  tell  you  about  the  protocol? 

14  A    Just  that  you  would  be  ushered  in  and  you  would  be 

15  ushered  out.   Very  little.   It  would  be  brief.   That's  all. 

16  0    Did  either  Mr.  Channell  or  Mr.  Miller  tell  you 

17  what  to  discuss  with  the  President  or  what  not  to  discuss 

18  with  the  President? 

19  A    No. 

20  0    Did  they  attempt  to  limit  in  any  way  anything  you 

21  might  say  to  Mr.  Reagan? 

22  A    No. 


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0    Did  they  try  to  give  you  suggestions  about  things 
you  might  say  to  him? 

A    No. 

0    The  next  day,  were  there  any  other  events, 
significant  events,  that  you  can  remember  on  that  day,  the 
day  that  you  were  briefed  by  Colonel  North?   Anyone  else  you 
met  or  anyone  else  who  imparted  any  information  about  the 
Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

A    No. 

0    What  happened  the  next  day? 

A    There  is  some  emergency  that  arose  that  morning  in 
the  White  House,  and  I'm  not  clear  as  to  what  it  was.   But 
the  President  was  not  able  to  meet  with  me. 

0    Did  you  go  over  to  the  White  House  to  wait? 

A    No.   It  was  very  clear  that  morning  that  it  was 
not  to  be. 

0    Did  you  meet  with  anyone  that  morning  or  that  day? 

A    Only  Mr.  Channell  again. 

0    Did  you  see  Mr.  Miller  that  day,  if  you  recall? 

A    No. 

0    How  about  Colonel  North? 


No. 


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9210  02  09 

1   4i       1         0    Did  Mr.  Fischer  come  back  again  by  any  chance? 

2  A    No. 

3  0     In  leading  up  to  this  meeting  with  the  President, 

4  or  this  proposed  meeting  with  the  President,  was  it  ever 

5  suggested  to  you  by  anyone  that  a  contribution  in  a  certain 

6  amount  or  a  contribution  of  a  certain  size  might  enable  you 

7  to  meet  with  the  President? 

8  A    No. 

9  0    Was  there  any  direct  connection  drawn  between  any 

10  contribution  you  might  make  or  did  make  and  the  meeting  with 

11  President  Reagan? 

12  A    No. 

13  0    Was  that  ever  —  I  don't  want  to  say  "implied,  but 

14  was  there  ever  an  indirect  indication  to  you  that  that  in 

15  fact  was  the  case? 

16  A  .  No. 

17  0    Did  you  ever  have  a  discussion  like  that,  or  was 

18  that  information  ever  imparted  to  you  at  any  time  after  the 

19  June  meeting?  Did  you  ever  understand  there  to  be  a 

20  relationship  between  your  contributions  and  any  meeting  with 

21  Ronald  Reagan? 

22  A     No. 


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9210    02    10 

1   ;i       1         0    Do  you  recall  any  specifics  of  your  discussion 

2  with  Mr.  Channell  on  the  next  day?   That  would  have  been 

3  June  26,  1985. 

4  A    No,  because  we  left  shortly.   We  went  to  some  art 

5  galleries  and  we  went  home. 

6  0    Do  you  recall  again  being  solicited  for 

7  contributions  on  that  day? 

8  A    No. 

9  0    Am  I  correct  that  by  the  time  you  had  this  meeting 

10  in  Washington,  D.C.,  you  had  made  a  series  of  contributions 

11  to  the  American  Conservative  —  what's  called  ACSEF  — 

12  American  Conservative  State  Election  Fund  or  to  NEPL.   By 

13  that  time  you  had  already  been  making  contributions  to  them? 

14  A    Yes. 

15  0    Can  we  agree  that  after  this  trip  to  Washington, 

16  you  made  additional  contributions  in  the  next  couple  of 

17  months  to  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of 

18  Liberty? 

19  A    I  don't  know  whether  it  was  in  the  next  couple  of 

20  months  or  not. 

21  0    Did  you  come  away  from  the  meeting  in  Washington 

22  with  an  intention  to  make  contributions  to  support  the 


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Nicaraguan  opposition? 

A    I  made  no  commitments  outwardly,  but  to  myself  I 
did. 

0    When  was  the  next  time  someone  attempted  to  obtain 
a  contribution  for  that  purpose? 

A    There  again,  I  really  don't  know  how  —  the  time 
span  —  but  I  did  contribute  later  on. 

0    This  is  a  point  of  general  reference  in  looking 
through  the  records  supplied  by  counsel.   Your  contributions 
seem  to  be  periodic  ones;  every  month  or  every  couple  of 
months  you  would  make  a  contribution  to  one  of 
Mr.  Channell's  organizations. 

As  a  general  matter,  were  those  contributions  made 
in  response  to  specific  appeals  or  were  those  made  on  the 
basis  of  every  now  and  then  you  would  find  a  way  to  make  a 
contribution  to  them,  whether  they  asked  for  it  or  not? 

A    No.   They  were  usually  for  particularly  things, 
lobbying  efforts. 

0    So  they  would  call  you  up  or  write  you  a  letter 
and  say  we  need  a  contribution  for  such  and  such,  and  you 
would  then  essentially  target  your  contribution  to  that? 
A    That's  right. 


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1  (Counsel  confers  with  witness.) 

2  THE  WITNESS:   May  I  clarify  that? 

3  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

4  0    Sure.   Absolutely. 

5  A    All  solicitations  were  made  by  phone.   No  letters. 

6  MR.  MORGAN:   We  are  not  aware  of  any  letters,  and 

7  your  question  included  both. 

8  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That's  fine.   Just  for  the  record, 

9  we  have  seen  a  lot  of  letters,  and  I  wasn't  attempting  to 

10  indicate  that  there  were  letters.   I  was  just  trying  to  be  a 

11  little  more  generic. 

12  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

13  0    Can  you  recall  the  first  contribution  you  made 

14  with  the  intent  of  providing  direct  support  to  the 

15  Nicaraguan  opposition? 

16  A    Are  you  asking  for  the  time  or  — 

17  0    I'm  just  asking  if  you  recall  the  context  in  which 

18  it  was  made. 

19  A    Only  through  another  call  from  Mr.  Channell,  or  if 

20  a  specific  thing  was  needed. 

21  0    Do  you  recall  what  the  specific  thing  that  was 
22 


needed  was? 


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9210  02  13 

1   ci       1         A    At  one  time  it  was  to  repair  an  airstrip.   At 

2  another  time  it  was  for  a  reconnaissance  plane. 

3  0    Do  you  ever  recall  Mr.  Channell  specifically 

4  requesting  funds  for  military  equipment  or  weapons? 

5  A    No, 

6  0    Did  he  ever  request  funds  that  weren't  targeted  to 

7  any  particular  need  of  the  contras?  That  is,  you've 

8  mentioned  an  airstrip  and  you've  mentioned  a  reconnaissance 

9  plane. 

10  Did  he  ever  ask  for  funds  for  the  general  support 

11  of  the  contras? 

12  A    No. 

13  MR.  HORGAN:   Excuse  me  one  moment. 

14  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 

15  THE  WITNESS:   I  need  to  clarify  my  answer,  please. 

16  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

17  0    Sure. 

18  A    In  between  specifics,  there  were  generalities  for 

19  I  never  knew  exactly  what,  whether  they  were  for  ads. 

20  Again,  it  was  all  pertaining  to  the  Nicaraguan  situation. 

21  Q    And  you  say  whether  they  were  for  ads.   They  also 

22  might  have  been  just  for  general  financial  support  directly 


uNcume 


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to  the  contras  as  you  understood  it? 
A    I  guess  so;  yes. 

0    Did  you  ever  indicate  to  Mr.  Channell  that  you 
would  have  an  objection  to  your  contributions  being  used  for 
military  assistance?   Did  you  ever  tell  him  do  not  —  or 
ensure  that  my  contributions  are  not  used  for  that? 

A    No.   But  it  never  occurred  to  me  that  they  would 
be  used  for  that. 

Q    There  came  a  time  in  November  of  1985,  I  believe 
November  7,  when  you  again  traveled  to  Washington.   I 
believe  at  that  time  you  did  in  fact  meet  Mr.  Reagan.   Am  I 
right  in  that? 

A    That's  right. 

0    Did  you  make  any  trips  that  you  can  recall  to 
Washington  between  June  of  1985  when  you  did  not  get  to  see 
Mr.  Reagan  and  November  7  of  1985  when  you  did? 

A    No. 

0    To  the  best  of  your  recollection,  did  Mr.  Channell 
visit  you  at  your  home  in  Connecticut  in  that  period  of 
time? 

A    I  know  he  visited  my  home,  but  don't  ask  me  just 


when. 


mmm,.. 


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34 


0    How  did  the  meeting  with  the  President  on 
November  7th  come  about?   How  did  the  invitation  come  to  you 
and  how  was  it  explained  to  you? 

A    Again  on  the  telephone.   He  told  me  of  having 
arranged  the  meeting  and  the  date,  the  time  that  I  should  be 
there. 

0  Did  he  explain  what  the  purpose  of  the  meeting  was 
or  how  it  came  about? 

A    Just  to  be  thanked  by  the  President. 

0    Did  he  say  thanked  for  what? 

A    He  didn't. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  mark  this  as  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  2,  which  is  a  letter  again  from  your  documents, 
dated  October  10,  1985  from  Mr.  Reagan. 

(Deposition  Exhibit  No.  2 
identified. ) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

0    Do  you  recall  receiving  this  letter? 

A    Yes,  I  do. 

Q  Do  you  know  why  you  received  the  letter?  It  is  an 
obviously  an  expression  of  gratitude.  Do  you  associate  this 
letter  with  any  particular  effort  or  action  on  your  part? 


\immm 


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1  A     No. 

2  0    Were  you  surprised  to  receive  the  letter? 

3  A    Yes . 

4  0    Had  Mr.  Channell  indicated  to  you  prior  to 

5  receiving  this  letter,  that  you  might  receive  it? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    Did  you  make  any  connection  in  your  own  mind 

8  between  Mr.  Channell  and  the  letter  of  October  10? 

9  1        A     No. 

10  0    Did  you  make  any  connection  in  your  own  mind 

11  between  your  contributions  to  NEPL  or  Mr.  Channell's 

12  organizations  and  the  letter  of  October  10? 

13  A    No,  not  at  that  time. 

14  0    Could  you  tell  me  what  happened  when  you  traveled 

15  to  Washington  on  November  7th? 

16  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  3 

17  identified.) 

18  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

19  0    And  so  you  have  it  in  front  of  you,  let's  mark 

20  this  as  Exhibit  3.   It's  a  page  from  your  appointment  book, 

21  which  is  the  basis  for  my  November  7th  statement.   I  hope  it 

22  is  correct.   A  page  from  November  1985  with  the  word 


ONciissra 


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"Washington"  written  across  November  7th.   Is  that  right? 

A    Yes,  it's  right. 

0    To  the  best  of  your  recollection,  is  that  in  fact 
when  your  meeting  with  President  Reagan  took  place? 

A    Yes. 

0    On  November  7,  1985? 

A    Yes. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  what  happened  when  you  traveled  to 
Washington?  Who  met  you?   Let's  start  there. 

A    I  believe  it  was  Mr.  Channell  who  met  me  again. 

Q    And  did  he  meet  you  at  the  airport? 

A    No,  at  the  hotel. 

0    Let  me  back  up  for  one  moment. 

The  expenses  for  your  trip  to  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel 
in  June  of  1985  —  were  you  reimbursed  for  those  or  did  you 
pay  those  out  of  your  own  pocket? 

A    I  had  some  members  of  my  family  with  me  and  I  paid 
for  those.   Mr.  Channell  paid  for  me. 

0    All  right. 

And  on  the  trip  on  November  7,  1985,  did  you 
travel  alone  at  that  point? 

A    In  November? 


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0    In  November.   The  November  trip? 
A    Yes. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Can  you  repeat  the  question?  Was  she 
traveling  alone? 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   My  question  is  in  specific  regard 
to  the  November  1985  trip,  was  she  traveling  alone? 
THE  WITNESS:   Yes,  I  was. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Let  me  assist  the  witness  in  terms  of 
her  recollection. 

(Counsel  and  witness  confer.) 
THE  WITNESS:   My  driver  brought  me  down. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    So  you  drove  down  to  Washington. 
A    And  the  driver's  wife;  yes. 

0    Did  you  again  check  into  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel? 
A    Yes . 

0    What  happened  that  day  after  Mr.  Channell  met  you 
A    It  was  in  the  afternoon,  and  I  was  taken  over  to 
the  White  House  and  ushered  into  the  West  Gate  waiting  room 
and  waited.   And  Mr.  Buchanan  came  to  usher  me  into  the  Oval 
Office. 

0    Did  Mr.  Channell  accompany  you  over  to  the  White 


Inc. 


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House? 


A     I'm  not  sure  whether  tie  accompanied  me  or  he  was 
there  waiting  for  me.   I'm  vague  on  that,  but  he  was  there. 

0    Was  anyone  else  with  Mr.  Channell?   Was  Mr.  Miller 
there  or  Mr.  Fischer? 

A    No. 

0    So  you  were  met  by  Mr.  Buchanan.   And  what 
happened  at  that  point? 

A    He  shook  my  hand  and  said  he  was  glad  to  meet  me. 
We  had  to  wait  a  while,  and  then  I  was  taken  in  to  see  the 
President. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  what  you  recollect  about  your 
jneeting  with  the  President? 

A    It  was  very  brief.   There  were  photographers 
around.   We  just  stood  shaking  hands  and  exchanging 
thank-you's.   And  I  remember  more  what  I  said  to  him  than 
what  he  said  to  me. 

I  said  to  him  that  I  thought  he  had  brought  God 
back  into  the  White  House.   And  he  said,  "I've  been  talking 
to  him  a  lot  lately  and  I  intend  to  take  him  to  the  summit 
with  me." 

Then  I  felt  that  he  really  had  nothing  more  to  say 


ONCUSSIRED 

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39 


1  and  so  I  went  outf  and  didn't  wait  to  be  ushered  out,  which 

2  was  not  right. 

3  0    Did  the  subject  of  Central  America  or  Nicaragua 

4  come  up  at  all? 

5  A    No. 

6  0    Did  President  Reagan  acknowledge  in  any  way  —  did 

7  he  say  thank  you,  or  thank  you  for  your  efforts  on  behalf  of 

8  something,  or  make  any  statements  like  that? 

9  A    No. 

10  0    What  happened  after  you  left  President  Reagan? 

11  A    Went  back  to  the  hotel  — 

12  Q    Let  me  stop  you  there. 

13  While  you  were  at  the  White  House,  did  you  see  any 

14  other  government  officials?  Did  you  see  Colonel  North  or 

15  anyone  other  than  Pat  Buchanan? 

16  A    No,  not  at  that  time. 

17  0    What  happened  after  you  went  back  —  you  went  back 

18  to  the  hotel  with  Mr.  Channell? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  0    What  happened  when  you  went  back  to  the  hotel? 

21  A    May  I  speak  to  counsel  for  a  minute,  please? 
22 


0    Sure. 


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uNcussra 


40 


1  (Counsel  and  witness  confer.) 

2  THE  WITNESS:   Going  back  to  your  question,  I'm  not 

3  sure  whether  it  was  this  visit  or  another  one,  but  there  was 

4  a  point  when  I  saw  his  offices. 

5  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

6  0    Mr.  Channell's  offices? 

7  A    Mr.  Channell's  offices.   And  he  took  me  over  to 

8  the  man  who  created  the  ads  and  so  forth,  Mr.  Goodman,  and  I 

9  met  him  briefly.   And  it  may  have  been  at  that  time  —  I'm 

10  not  absolutely  certain. 

11  0    The  offices  that  you  visited,  were  they  up  on 

12  Capitol  Hill  in  a  townhouse,  or  were  they  down  on 

13  Pennsylvania  Avenue  in  an  office  building? 

14  A    No,  they  were  in  a  townhouse. 

15  0    While  you  visited  his  offices,  did  you  meet 

16  anyone  else  at  this  organization  if  you  can  recall? 

17  A    Only  his  secretary. 

18  0    Was  that  Angie? 

19  A    Angie. 

20  0    Setting  aside  that  trip  to  the  townhouse  and  the 

21  Goodman  incident,  after  you  left  the  White  House  with 

22  Mr.  Channel,  I  believe  you  said,  eventually  you  got  back  to 


s.  Inc. 


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41 


the  hotel. 

Did  you  dine  with  him  at  that  point  or  discuss 
anything  with  him? 

A    We  had  dinner. 

0    Was  anyone  else  present  at  dinner? 

A    I  believe  Dan  Conrad.   I  believe  that's  all.   Just 
Dan,  Mr.  Channell,  and  myself. 


Do  you  recall  anything  that  was  discussed  at  that 


time? 


A    Nothing  specific. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Excuse  me  one  moment. 
(Counsel  and  witness  confer.) 

THE  WITNESS:   To  clarify  that,  I  think  Mr.  Miller 
was  present,  too.   I'm  never  quite  sure.   He  drifted  in  and 
out.   I'm  never  quite  sure  whether  he's  with  us  or  not. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Did  you  ever  come  to  an  understanding  as  to  what 
Mr.  Miller's  role  was? 

A    I  never  knew  what  his  role  was  at  that  time. 
0    You  say  you  never  knew  at  that  time.   Other  than 
the  publicity  that's  come  out  in  recent  months,  did  you  ever 
in  your  relationship  with  Mr.  Channel  understand  what  his 


lIMMSn^  - 


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role  was? 

A    When  I  read  it  in  the  paper. 
0    At  that  dinner,  was  one  of  the  topics  of 
discussion  the  needs  of  the  Resistance  fighters  in 
Nicaragua? 

A    Would  you  repeat  that  again? 
0    Sure. 

At  the  dinner  with  Mr.  Conrad  and  Mr.  Channell  and 
perhaps  Mr.  Miller,  did  you  or  they  discuss  the  needs  of  the 
contras,  the  Nicaraguan  Democratic  Resistance? 
A    Yes.   I'm  sure  we  touched  on  it. 

0    Do  you  recall  any  specifics  of  that  conversation? 
A    No. 

0    Did  you  recall  being  solicited  for  a  contribution 
or  contributions  at  that  dinner? 

A    Not  right  at  the  dinner. 

0    Were  you  solicited  shortly  after  the  dinner? 
A    I'm  sure;  another  phone  call. 

Q    Do  you  recall  at  that  dinner  —  let's  go  back  to 
the  dinner  —  any  specific  needs  of  the  contras  being 
mentioned? 

A    I'm  not  sure  whether  it  was  at  that  time  that  they 


"iyssm.,.. 


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9210    03    07 

i   ci       1  mentioned  the  plane.   I  don't  believe  there  were  any 

2  specifics. 

3  0    Did  you  stay  in  Washington  overnight  or  did  you 

4  return  that  evening? 

5  A    Stayed  overnight. 

6  0    Did  you  meet  with  anyone  the  next  day? 

7  A    There  was  a  breakfast  with  Colonel  North.   I'm  not 

8  sure  whether  it  was  that  meeting  or  the  next  one.   But 

9  anyway,  it  was  a  very  brief  breakfast. 

10  0    What  was  discussed  at  that  breakfast,  if  you 

11  recall? 

12  A    He  was  telling  me  how  they  found  their  home  in 

13  Virginia  and  telling  me  about  his  wife  and  children. 

14  0    Was  Mr.  Channell  present  at  that  breakfast  as 

15  well? 

16  A    Yes. 

17  0    How  about  Mr.  Miller,  if  you  recall? 

18  A    Not  Mr.  Miller.   I  think  it  was  Mr.  Conrad. 

19  Q    Did  Colonel  North  discuss  the  needs  or  the 

20  position  of  the  contras  at  that  breakfast? 

21  A    No. 

22  Q    Did  Colonel  North  solicit  any  contributions  at 


UNCLASSIFIED 

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KNCUSSra 


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9210    03    08 

1    i       1  that  breakfast? 

2  A    No. 

3  0    As  best  you  can  recall,  did  Mr.  Channell  —  did 

4  anyone  at  that  breakfast  discuss  Central  America,  Nicaragua, 

5  or  the  needs  of  the  contras? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    Did  anyone  solicit  any  contributions  at  that 

8  breakfast? 

9  A    No. 

10  0    What  is  the  next  contact  after  that  breakfast? 

11  Did  you  return  to  Connecticut,  or  were  there  any  other 

12  events  that  day  that  you  remember? 

13  A    No.   I  went  right  home. 

14  0    What  was  the  next  contact  you  recall  receiving 

15  from  Mr.  Channel  or  his  organizations? 

16  A    What?   Requests? 

17  0    Yes.   Any  requests,  any  telephone  calls,  any 

18  meetings  with  Mr.  Channell?   The  next  contact  you  might  have 

19  had. 

20  A    It  could  have  been  a  visit  up  to  Greenwich, 

21  showing  me  ads  for  the  newspapers  again.   It's  all  so 

22  confusing. 


AceTederal  RFmwfERS,  Inc. 


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UNCUSffD 


45 


9210    03    09 

1    i       1  0    All  right.   You  continued  after  your  meeting  with 

2  President  Reagan,  did  you  not,  to  make  contributions  to 

3  NEPL? 

4  A    Yes. 

5  0    And  in  November  and  December  of  1985,  you  made 

6  very  sizable  donations  of  stock  to  NEPL;  do  you  recall  that? 

7  A    Yes . 

8  0    Each  of  them  was  in  the  amount  of  approximately 

9  $500,000  and  totaled  over  a  million  dollars.   Is  that  right? 

10  A    Yes. 

11  0    Do  you  recall  what  those  contributions  were  for? 

12  A    I  think  that  was  for  the  plane  and  the  airstrip. 

13  0    Do  you  recall  how  the  plane  and  the  airstrip  first 

14  came  to  your  attention? 

15  A    I  think  it  was  mentioned  at  the  briefing,  but  not 

16  specifically  till  later  on. 

17  •    0    Do  you  remember  who  specifically  brought  it  back 

18  up  again? 

19  A    Mr.  Channell. 

20  0    Do  you  remember  at  what  meeting  or  in  what  context 

21  he  brought  it  back  up  again? 

22  A    That  was  another  phone  call. 


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0    Just  for  point  of  clarification,  when  you  refer  to 
the  briefing,  you  refer  to  Colonel  North's  briefing  in  June? 

A    Yes. 

0    You  say  you  believe  it  was  a  phone  call  in  which 
Mr.  Channell  resurrected  the  airstrip  and  the  spotter  plane 
again? 

A    Yes. 

0    Did  he  talk  in  terms  of  specific  amounts  necessary 
to  repair  the  airstrip  or  buy  the  spotter  plane? 

A    Yes.   But  I  don't  remember  the  amounts  at  this 
point. 

0    Do  you  remember  whether  your  contributions  were 
going  to  be  enough,  too  much,  or  not  enough?   Were  you  going 
to  be  the  one  solely  repairing  the  airstrip,  or  were  other 
people  needed  as  well? 

A    No.   I  think  the  plane  was  me,  but  the  airstrip 
Was  just  a  part  of  it. 

0    Do  you  recall  any  discussion  of  where  the  airstrip 
was  located? 

A     No. 

0    Do  you  recall  the  country  in  which  it  was  located? 


A    No. 


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0    Do  you  know  whether  it  was  located  on  what  has 
become  known  as  the  northern  or  the  southern  front? 

A    I  really  don't  know. 

0    Are  you  now,  or  were  you  then  at  all  familiar  with 
the  distinction  between  the  northern  front  and  the  southern 
front  in  Nicaragua? 

A    No. 

Q    Do  you  recall  if  Mr.  Miller  was  present  at  the 
breakfast  you  had  with  Colonel  North? 

A     No. 

0    You  don't  recall,  or  he  was  not  present? 

A    He  was  not  there. 

0    Was  Colonel  North  present  at  the  dinner  the  night 
before  with  Mr.  Channell? 

A   _  No. 

0    So  that  the  only  time  you  recall  meeting  Colonel 
North  on  that  trip  to  Washington  was  at  the  breakfast  the 
next  morning? 

A    That's  correct. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Tom,  let  me  see  if  I  can  clarify 
chronology  perhaps. 

(Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 


ERS,  Inc. 


407 


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48 


THE  WITNESS:   To  clarify,  there  was  a  meeting 
after  dinner  in  my  suite  with  Colonel  North. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Oh,  that's  where  I  got  off  the  track. 

All  right.   Tell  me  about  the  meeting  in  the  suite 
after  dinner. 

A    He  came  to  bring  me  a  gift  from  the  President  that 
I  dashed  out  and  didn't  receive  when  I  was  there,  and  also 
to  talk  more  about  the  needs  of  the  contras. 

0    Can  you  tell  me,  first  of  all,  what  was  the  gift? 

A    The  gift  was  a  glass  plaque.   On  one  side  of  it  it 
read,  etched  in  the  President's  handwriting:   "There  is  no 
limits  to  what  a  man  can  do  or  where  he  can  go  if  he  does 
not  care  who  gets  the  credit." 

0    And  what  do  you  recall  about  Colonel  North's 
discussions  at  that  evening  meeting? 

A    Just  more  about  the  contra  situation.   He  wanted 
to  know  about  my  meeting. 

0    He  asked  you  about  your  meeting  with  President 
Reagan? 

A    Yes. 

0    And  did  he  discuss,  if  you  recall,  did  he  discuss 


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the  airstrip  and/or  the  spotter  plane  -- 
A     No. 
0    —  at  that  meeting? 

Did  he  discuss  the  needs  of  the  contras? 
A    Yes. 

0    And  what  types  of  needs  did  he  describe  at  that 
meeting? 

A    More  of  the  same.   Food  and  equipment  and  weapons. 
MR.  HORGAN:   Excuse  me  one  moment. 
(Counsel  and  witness  confer.) 

THE  WITNESS:  Clarifying  this  answer,  he  did  bring 
out  a  map  to  show  the  situation  in  Nicaragua  and  most  likely 
—  it's  just  not  clear  to  me  —  but  most  likely  he  did  speak 
about  the  airstrip. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
Q    But  you  don't  recollect  where  that  airstrip  might 
have  been  located? 
A    No. 

0    The  plane  that  we  have  been  talking  about,  was  it 
ever  identified  as  a  Majgi  aircraft?  Have  you  ever  heard 


that  term? 


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1  0    Just  what  you  call  a  reconnaissance  plane  or  a 

2  spotter  plane? 

3  A    That's  correct. 

4  0    Who  was  present  at  this  meeting  in  your  suite 

5  after  dinner? 

6  A    It  was  Mr.  Channell,  Colonel  North,  and  I  believe 

7  it  was  Dan  Conrad. 

8  0    Could  Mr.  Miller  have  been  there? 

9  A    I  am  quite  sure  he  was  not  there. 

10  0    Did  Colonel  North  solicit  any  contributions  or  any 

11  funds  for  the  contras  at  that  meeting? 

12  A    No. 

13  0    Did  Colonel  North  make  any  indication  that 

14  Mr.  Channell  could  provide  the  needs,  the  contributions  of 

15  Mr.  Channell  might  provide  for  the  needs  of  the  contras? 

16  A    No . 

17  0    Other  than  the  meeting  with  the  President,  the 

18  meetings  you  have  described  so  far,  were  there  any  other 

19  meetings  during  that  trip  to  Washington  that  you  recall? 

20  A    No. 

21  0    Mrs.  Newington,  the  records  that  you've  turned 

22  over  to  us  indicate  —  this  is  just  as  a  general  matter. 


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1  subject  to  check  by  Mr.  Horgan  —  that  between  October  of 

2  1985  and  about  March  of  1986,  in  that  six-month  period  that 

3  straddled  the  New  Year,  you  made  contributions  to  NEPL  of 

4  approximately  about  $1  million  --  about  a  million  and  a  half 

5  in  stock  and  another  $500,000  or  so  in  cash  or  in  checks.   I 

6  won't  say  cash. 

7  Is  that  about  it? 

8  MR.  HORGAN:   That's  close? 

9  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

10  0    So  about  a  million  and  a  half  dollars  in  stocks 

11  and  about  $500,000  in  cash. 

12  Was  all  that  to  be  devoted,  as  you  recall,  to  the 

13  repair  of  the  airstrip  or  the  purchase  of  a  spotter  plane? 

14  A    Oh,  no. 

15  0    For  what  other  purposes  were  you  contributing? 

16  A    This  was,  I  am  quite  sure,  during  the  lobbying 

17  efforts  for  the  Congress  as  well  as  continuous  ads  and 

18  television  spots. 

19  0    Can  you,  in  your  own  mind,  separate  out  what 

20  portions  of  those  contributions  —  with  the  parameters  I 

21  gave  you  —  what  portions  of  the  contributions  —  we're 

22  talking  about  a  total  contribution  in  the  neighborhood  of 


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$2  million  over  the  space  of  about  six  months. 

Can  you,  in  your  own  mind,  sort  out  how  much  of 
that  was  devoted  to  the  contras  and  how  much  was  devoted  to 
television  ads? 
A    No, 

0    Does  that  help  you  at  all  fix  the  amount  they  were 
requesting  for  the  airfield  and  for  the  spotter  plane? 
A    Not  really. 

(Deposition  Exhibit  No.  4 
identified . ) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Mrs.  Newington,  Deposition  Exhibit  4  is  a  letter 
from  Oliver  North  dated  January  24,  1986,  among  the 
documents  you  provided  to  us 

Do  you  recall  receiving  that  letter? 
A    Yes . 

0    Between  November  7,  1986  —  1985,  excuse  me  --  the 
evening  meeting  and  the  breakfast  during  the  trip  to 
Washington  and  your  receipt  of  this  letter,  had  you  had  any 
further  communications  with  Colonel  North? 

A    Only  in  the  phone  calls.   I  was  requested  by 
Mr.  Channell  once  in  a  while  to  call  him  to  cheer  him  up  and 


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1  to  find  out  how  things  were  going.   I  may  have  done  that 

2  maybe  twice. 

3  0    And  these  phone  calls,  when 'yo'J  called  to  cheer 

4  him  up  or  find  out  how  things  were  going,  did  you  discuss 

5  Nicaragua  or  any  similar  situations? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    Obviously  the  letter  is  expressing  its 

8  appreciation  for  your  support  and  your  efforts,  and  those  of 

9  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

10  If  you  go  to  the  third  paragraph,  in  particular 

11  the  last  two  sentences  in  that  paragraph,  it  reads:   "In  the 

12  weeks  ahead,  we  will  commence  a  renewed  effort  to  make  our 

13  assistance  to  the  Democratic  Resistance  Forces  even  more 

14  effective.   Once  again  your  support  will  be  essential." 

15  How  did  you  understand  you  were  to  provide  your 

16  support  to  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

17  A    There  was  no  particular  emphasis  on  anything  that 

18  I  can  recall. 

19  0    Did  you  understand  that  your  support  will  be 

20  essential  to  be  a  reference  to  the  support  that  you  had 

21  previously  given  to  the  National  Endowment  for  the 

22  Preservation  of  Liberty? 


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mmxM 


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Yes. 


0    And  in  speaking  of  continued  support,  did  you 
understand  that  to  mean  that  your  continued  support  of  the 
National  Endowment  would  be  essential? 

A    Yes. 

0    There  came  a  time  in,  I  believe,  early  1986,  did 
there  not,  when  Mr.  Channell  had  your  phones  swept  for 
surveillance  devices;  is  that  right? 

A    That's  right. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  how  that  came  about? 

A    He  just  suggested  that  it  might  be  a  good  idea  for 
me  to  have  it  done.   I  really  didn't  question  why  he  thought 
it  would  be,  but  if  he  wanted  to  do  it,  it  was  all  right 
with  me. 

0    Did  it  seem  like  an  unusual  request  from  your 
standpoint? 

A    Yes . 

0    Had  you  ever  had  it  done  before? 

A    No. 

0    Have  you  ever  had  it  done  since? 

A    No. 

0    Can  you  recall  anything  further  about  the 


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conversation  as  to  why  it  was  necessary  to  sweep  your 
phones? 

A    It  really  was  not  gone  into.   Just  a  suggestion. 

0    What  brought  it  about?  Was  there  any  meeting  that 
was  coming  up,  a  visit  by  anyone,  or  did  this  just  come  out 
of  the  blue? 

A    Out  of  the  blue. 

0    Had  you  at  that  point  been  having  telephone 
conversations  with  Colonel  North? 

A    Only  the  ones  that  I  referred  to. 

0    Did  he  indicate  that  he  was  doing  this  at  the 
suggestion  of  anyone?   That  he  was  sweeping  your  phones  at 
the  suggestion  of  anyone? 

A    No. 

0    And  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of 
Liberty  did  in  fact  pay  for  the  sweep,  did  it  not? 

A    Yes . 

MR.  HORGAN:   In  terms  of  your  last  question, 
Mrs.  Newington  learned  who  paid  for  it  recently.   She  did 
not  really  have  any  understanding  at  the  time. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOCJGH: 

0    You  were  not  responsible  for  paying  for  it;  is 


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1  that   right? 

2  A  That's    right. 

3  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  mark  this  as  Exhibit  No.  5. 
*  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  5 

5  identified. ) 

6  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Would  you  care  to  take  a  break  for 

7  a  few  minutes? 

8  MR.  HORGAN:   Maybe  in  a  little  while.   She  is  not 

9  used  to  this. 

10  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  understand.   As  soon  as  you  feel 

11  that  might  be  helpful,  just  let  me  know. 

12  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

13  0    Now,  we  have  marked  Exhibit  5,  which  is  again  a 

14  document  produced  by  your  counsel  and  it  reflects  a 

15  transaction  at  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel  in  Washington  on 

16  February  28,  1986. 

17  •         Did  you  in  fact  visit  Washington  and  stay  at  the 

18  Hay-Adams  at  that  time? 

19  A    That's  correct. 

20  0    And  can  you  recall  the  purpose  of  that  trip? 

21  A    That  was  the  second  visit  to  the  President. 

22  0    How  did  that  come  about? 


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1  A  That  again  was  arranged  by  Mr.  Channell. 

2  0  Did  he  explain  why  it  had  been  arranged? 

3  'a  No. 

4  0  He,  in  effect,  invited  you  to  come  down  and  attend 

5  this  —  or  visit  the  President;  is  that  right? 

6  A  That's  right. 

7  0  Can  you  tell  me  what  happened  when  you  traveled 

8  to  Washington? 

9  A  This  time  I  came  down  by  train  with  members  of  my 

10  family. 

11  MR.  HORGAN:   Bear  with  me  a  moment. 

12  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 

13  THE  WITNESS:   Yes,  sir.   I  came  down  on  the  train 

14  with  my  sister,  brother-in-law,  and  my  daughter. 

15  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

16  0  And  who  met  you,  if  you  recall? 

17  A  Mr.  Smith.   Cliff  Smith. 

18  0  1  note  on  there  that  there  is  an  Amtrak  entry. 

19  that  might  be  the  train  tickets. 

20  Where  did  Mr.  Smith  take  you? 

21  A  To  the  hotel. 

22  0  And  had  you  met  Cliff  Smith  prior  to  that? 


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No. 


2  0    It  was  the  first  time  you  met  him? 

3  I       A     (Nods  in  the  affirmative.) 

4  0    But  he  had  corresponded  with  you  before  that;  is 

5  that  right? 

6  A    On  the  phone;  yes. 

7  0    What  happened  when  you  got  to  the  hotel?  Was 

8  there  anyone  else  there? 

9  A    Not  at  that  moment,  but  eventually  I  was  met  by 

10  Mr.  Channell. 

11  0    What  happened  next? 

12  A    I  believe  that  was  the  afternoon  that  I  went  to 

13  see  the  President. 

14  0    Can  you  tell  me  how  that  came  about? 

15  A    Yes.   I  think  Mr.  Channell  took  me  over  to  the 

16  White  House  again  and  I  met  Colonel  North  at  that  time.   He 

17  was  planning  to  take  me  in.   There  was  a  long  wait  before  I 

18  could  see  the  President.   He  was  very,  very  busy. 

19  And  Colonel  North  couldn't  wait  any  longer  and  he 

20  departed.   And  I  went  in,  but  I  don't  think  anybody  took  me 

21  in  this  time.   I  just  started  to  go  in,  and  it  was  a  very 

22  brief  meeting,  and  we  exchanged  thank-you's  again.   And  he 


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handed  me  a  jar  of  jelly  beans  and  said  to  give  this  to  my 
daughter,  and  I  handed  him  a  book  and  said  I  had  something 
for  him  to  give  him  some  strength.   It  was  a  little 
spiritual  book  of  some  kind.   And  that  was  it. 

0    You  say  you  exchanged  thank-you's.   What  did  you 
thank  President  Reagan  for,  if  you  remember? 

A    Just  for  taking  the  time  to  see  me. 

0    Do  you  recall  what  he  thanked  you  for? 

A    Again,  nothing. 

0    Did  the  subject  of  Central  America  come  up  at  all? 

A    No. 

0    When  you  were  waiting  with  Colonel  North,  do  you 
recall  what  discussions  you  had  with  him? 

A    We  talked  about  many  surface  things;  nothing  about 
the  problems. 

0    Nothing  that  you  recall  about  the  contras  or 
N"icaragua? 

A    No. 

0    What  happened  after  you  left  the  President's 
office? 

A    It  must  have  been  dinner  time  again.   We  went  back 
to  the  hotel  and  had  dinner  again.   I  think  this  was  with 


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UNCLASSIFIED 


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Mr.  Miller,  Mr.  Channell,  and  Mr.  Conrad.   We  all  had  dinnei 
again  together. 

0    Did  Colonel  North  appear  that  evening? 

A    Not  that  evening;  no. 

0    What  was  the  subject  of  discussion  that  evening, 
if  you  can  recall? 

A    Nothing  terribly  terribly  important  as  I  can 
recall. 

0    Did  you  discuss  Nicaragua,  if  you  remember? 

A    We  must  have  touched  on  it,  of  course.   I  really 
can't  remember  specifics. 

0    Do  you  recall  any  specific  needs  of  the  contras 
being  discussed  at  that  meeting? 

A    I  would  assume  that  there  must  have  been. 

0    But  you  don't  recall  specifics? 

A    I  just  don't  recall. 

0    Did  you  have  any  further  meetings  after  dinner 
that  evening? 

A    No. 

0    How  about  the  next  day? 

A    This  is  where  I  think  the  breakfast  came  in,  the 
breakfast  with  Colonel  North.   It  was  not  the  time  before, 


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1  but  I  think  it  was  this  time. 

2  0    And  the  breakfast  you  described  before  is  the  one 

3  you  at  first  took  place  on  November  8th,  after  your  first 

4  meeting  with  the  President,  but  now  you  think  it  took  place 

5  this  time? 

6  A    I  believe  that's  correct. 

7  0    And  I  believe  we  covered  the  topics  that  were 

8  discussed.   Does  the  change  in  time  change  your  recollection 

9  of  what  was  discussed? 

10  A    Just  one  thing  we  may  have  added  to  that  now  is 

11  his  visit;  coming  up  to  visit  because  he  was  very  tired  and 

12  exhausted,  and  Mr.  Channell  had  suggested  he  might  like  to 

13  come  up  to  Greenwich  to  rest. 

14  I  do  think  we  discussed  that. 

15  0    Mrs.  Newington,  the  records  you  gave  to  us 

16  indicate  —  I  am  not  going  to  mark  this  as  exhibit  —  but 

17  indicate  on  March  27,  1986  you  made  a  contribution  of 

18  $142,000.   And  you  can  look  at  the  check  just  to  refresh 

19  your  recollection. 

20  (Document  handed  to  the  witness.) 

21  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

22  0    Was  that  the  check,  or  was  that  —  if  you 


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recall  —  the  check  that  was  targeted  for  spotter  or 
reconnaissance  planes? 

A    It  could  very  well  have  been,  but  I  am  not 
absolutely  certain. 

0    You  can't,  as  you  sit  here  today,  be  certain 
whether  or  not  that  is  the  — 

A    Not  really. 

0    Do  you  know  how  long  before  you  made  a 
contribution  for  the  planes,  you  were  first  advised  of  the 
need?  Was  this  something  they  told  you  about  and  you  kept 
in  the  back  of  your  mind  for  a  while  until  you  made  a 
contribution;  or  did  they  tell  you  about  it  and  you  turned 
around  and  made  a  contribution? 

A    I  think  they  told  me  and  shortly  thereafter  I 
contributed. 

0    Let's  move,  if  we  could,  to  Colonel  North's  visit 
to  your  home.   The  records  that  have  been  provided  to  us 
seem  to  indicate  that  that  took  place  in  early  May  of  1986. 
And  let  me  show  you  the  records. 

I  am  citing  for  that,  the  first  we  will  mark  as  a 
deposition  exhibit.  This  is  not  a  record  that  you  provided 
to  us.   Deposition  Exhibit  6  is  a  telephone  message,  written 


iCE 


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1   ^i       1  at  the  offices  of  NEPL,  dated  May  2,  1986,  that  in  the  lower 

2  left-hand  corner  includes  directions  to  your  home. 

3  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  6 

4  identified.) 

5  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   And  then  the  calendar  we  have  from 

6  your  records  — 

7  MR.  HORGAN:   Just  for  my  information  —  this  is 

8  the  first  time  I've  seen  the  document  —  is  this  a  telephone 

9  message  to  someone  that  you  could  identify? 

10  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   The  telephone  message  appears  to  be 

11  to  Angela  from  Mrs.  Newington.   And  it's  giving  directions 

12  to  Mrs.  Newington 's  home. 

13  This  is  a  document  that  will  be  Exhibit  7  from 

14  your  files,  Mrs.  Newington. 

15  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  7 

16  identified.) 

17  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

18  0    And  if  you  will  look  at  Saturday,  May  3rd,  and 

19  Sunday,  May  4th  —  although  the  copy  is  not  very  good  -- 

20  that  appears  to  say  North. 

21  Are  we  correct  in  our  assumption  that  Colonel 

22  North's  visit  to  your  home  took  place  on  or  about  November 


UNCUSSIFIED 

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3rd  and  4th  —  I'm  sorry,  I  mean  May  3rd  and  4th  of  1986? 

A    Yes. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  how  the  idea  for  that  visit  first 
came  about,  whose  idea  it  was? 

A    Well,  as  I  mentioned,  Mr.  Channell  having  been  to 
ray  house  —  we  have  a  pool  —  he  thought  it  might  be  a 
restful  spot  for  him  to  come  and  just  have  a  get-away.   We 
didn't  know  when  it  was  going  to  happen.   I  talked  about  it 
for  quite  a  while. 

0    How  much  notice  do  you  recall  receiving  as  to  this 
visit?  Was  this  something  that  was  planned  weeks  in 
advance? 

A    Probably  about  a  week  in  advance. 

0    Had  it  been  scheduled  on  other  occasions  and 
postponed,  or  the  first  time  it  was  scheduled  did  it 
actually  happen? 

A    No.   The  first  time  it  was  scheduled. 

0    Who  attended  the  weekend? 

A    Colonel  North,  his  wife  and  two  children, 
Mr.  Channell,  Mr.  Miller,  and  Mr.  Conrad. 

Q    Did  Mr.  Channell,  Mr.  Miller,  and  Mr.  Conrad  bring 
any  family  members,  spouses  or  friends  with  them? 


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1  A  No. 

2  0    Do  you  recall  how  each  of  those  people  traveled 

3  and  arrived  at  your  house? 

4  A    Yes.   Colonel  North  and  his  family  came  up  by 

5  plane  to  Westchester  Airport  and  I  picked  them  up  and  took 

6  them  to  my  house . 

7  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  came  together.   I 

8  believe  they  came  up  on  their  own  airplane.   And  then 

9  Mr.  Miller  arrived  separately. 

10  0    And  you  say  Colonel  North  came  up  by  airplane. 

11  Did  he  come  up  by  commercial  air  carrier? 

12  A    I  think  it  was  a  private  plane.   I  couldn't  be 

13  absolutely  certain  about  that.   It  was  at  an  odd  hour,  and  I 

14  think  it  was  a  private  plane. 

15  0    Do  you  know  who  supplied  the  private  plane? 

16  A    No. 

17  "    0    Did  you  supply  the  private  plane? 

18  A    No. 

19  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That's  probably  a  more  direct  way. 

20  MR.  HORGAN:   I  did  not  either. 

21  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

22  Q    Did  you  have  any  understanding  with  Colonel  North 


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or  with  Mr.  Channell  as  to  who  would  pay  for  this  weekend  -- 
expenses  and  that  sort  of  thing? 

A     I  had  no  idea. 

0    When  you  say  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  came  up 
in  their  plane  —  I  think  that  was  the  way  you  put  it  —  do 
you  know  whether  they  came  in  a  private  plane  or  by 
commercial  carrier? 

A    No,  by  commercial.   LaGuardia. 

0    When  did  the  group  arrive?  Was  it  on  Friday  or 
was  it  on  Saturday? 

A    Very  late  Saturday  night. 

0    When  you  say  very  late  Saturday  night,  do  you 
recall  what  time? 

A    It  must  have  been  about  8  o'clock  because  we 
didn't  have  dinner  until  about  9:30  or  something. 

0    And  the  dinner,  can  you  describe  how  that  was  set 
out,  what  kind  of  dinner  it  was? 

A    Yes.   We  went  down  to  the  Homestead  Inn  which  is 
only  a  block  or  two  away  from  my  house  and  had  dinner  — 
children  and  all. 

Q    And  who  paid  for  that  dinner? 

A  I   did. 


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1   ci       1         0    Do  you  recall  how  much  the  dinner  cost  at  this 

2  point? 

3  A    Yes.   I  think  it  was  somewhere  between  three  and 

4  four  hundred  dollars. 

5  0    Did  everyone  in  the  group  stay  at  your  residence? 

6  A    Yes. 

7  0    And  they  stayed  there  Saturday  night;  is  that 

8  right? 

9  A    Yes . 

10  0    Let  me  back  up  for  a  moment. 

11  At  that  dinner  at  the  Homestead  Inn,  or  as  best 

12  you  can  recollect,  at  any  time  on  Saturday  night  were  there 

13  any  discussions  of  Nicaragua  or  the  contras? 

14  A    No. 

15  0    Let's  move  to  Sunday. 

16  Can  you  tell  me  what  the  itinerary  was  on  Sunday? 

17  A    Colonel  North  slept  till  about  noon.   The  others 

18  straggled  down  for  breakfast,  and  we  had  a  picnic  about 

19  2  o'clock,  outside. 

20  Q    Do  you  recall  Nicaragua  or  the  contras  being 

21  discussed  at  any  time  on  Sunday? 

22  A    No. 


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1  0    Was  there  a  time  at  the  picnic  on  Sunday, 

2  Mrs.  Newington,  when  Mr.  Channell  in  the  presence  of  Colonel 

3  North,  and  yourself  and  Mr.  Miller  brought  up  or  asked  a 

4  question  of  Colonel  North  about  the  contras  or  support  of 

5  the  contras? 

6  Do  you  remember  that? 

7  A    No.   I  remember  only  that  we  stayed  very  far  away 

8  from  the  subject  because  everybody  was  trying  to  take  a 

9  break  and  get  away  from  it  all. 

10  0    I  guess  I  am  trying  to  focus  on  what  may  have  been 

11  a  specific  question  addressed  by  Mr.  Channell  to  Colonel 

12  North  that  some  members  in  the  group  felt  was  rather 

13  inappropriate  in  light  of  the  agreement  that  there  would  be 

14  no  business  discussed  over  the  weekend. 

15  Do  you  recall  anybody  breaching  that  rule  at  any 

16  point? 

17  A    No. 

18  0    After  the  picnic  on  Sunday  what,  if  anything, 

19  occurred? 

20  A    The  children  went  swimming.   They  left  late 

21  afternoon. 

22  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let  me  show  you  what  has  been 


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9210    04    16 

1    i       1  marked  as  Deposition  Exhibit  8. 

2  (Deposition  Exhibit  No.  8 

3  identified.) 

4  (Document  handed  to  the  witness.) 

5  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

6  0    This  is  a  document  produced  by  your  counsel. 

7  Do  you  recognize  this  letter,  Mrs.  Newington? 

8  A    Yes,  I  do. 

9  0    Can  you  tell  me  what  it  is? 

10  A    It's  a  little  thank-you  note  from  Mrs.  North. 

11  0    And  her  name  is  Betsy. 

12  A°    Betsy . 

13  0    And  it  refers  to  the  weekend  that  they  just  had? 

14  A    Yes. 

15  0    And  the  date  on  it  is  May  12,  1986;  is  that  right? 

16  A    That's  right. 

17  0    There  is  a  reference  on  this  to  a  "Larry."   I  see 

18  it  at  —  if  you  turn  it  vertically,  you  can  see  a  reference 

19  to  a  "Larry"  here  and  I  think  it  turns  up  as  well  —  it's 

20  got  "Larry"  here.   I  think  there's  at  least  one  other 

21  reference  to  "Larry."   Let  me  look  here. 

22  I  think  if  you  look  at  the  first  paragraph  of  the 


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letter,  it  says  in  parens,  "I  think  Larry  would  have  slept 
all  day  if  Dornin  hadn't  insisted  he  get  up." 

A     That's  her  husband.   Larry.   She  refers  to  him  as 
Larry. 

0    It  threw  me  for  a  bit  of  a  loop. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Who  refers  to  whom  as  Larry? 
THE  WITNESS:   Betsy  refers  to  her  husband  as 
Larry. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    So  that  was  a  reference  that  you  —  let  me  put  it 
this  way.   You  did  not  understand  that  to  be  a  code  name  for 
Colonel  North? 
A    No. 

0    Do  you  know  if  that's  his  middle  name? 
A    Yeah,  I  think  it  is.   I'm  not  absolutely  sure,  but 
it  must  be. 

MR.  REARDON:   Oliver  L. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    And  Dornin  is  one  of  their  children? 
A    Yes. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Why  don't  we  take  a  brief  break  and 
that  will  allow  me  to  sort  through  this  stuff. 


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1  (Brief    recess.) 

2  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Why  don't  we  go  back  on  the  record? 

3  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

4  0    Mrs.  Newington,  let  me  ask  you  a  little  bit  about 

5  the  transition  in  Western  Goals  when  Mr.  Channell  took  over 

6  the  organization. 

7  Am  I  correct  that  you  were,  if  not  instrumental, 
at  least  part  of  the  process  of  persuading  Mr.  Channell  to 

9  take  on  Western  Goals? 

10  A  ■   That's  right. 

11  0    Can  you  tell  me,  did  you  have  some  kind  of 

12  argreement  or  arrangement  with  him  or  understanding  as  to 

13  what  you  might  do  if  he  did  in  fact  take  on  Western  Goals? 

14  A    Yes.   He  asked  if  I  would  stick  with  it  for  about 

15  a  year  until  he  got  it  going,  and  I  said  I  would.   They  had 

16  debts  to  pay  off  and  I  helped  them  with  that.   And  that's 

17  about  it. 

18  0    And  for  that  year,  during  which  you  promised  to 

19  stick  with  it,  did  they  provide  you  with  —  did  they  notify 

20  you  of  the  amounts  of  money  they  needed  to  continue  the 

21  project? 

22  A    Yes. 


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1  0    And  did  you  do  your  best  to  fulfill  the 

2  organization's  needs? 

3  A    Yes. 

4  0    Did  you  ever  understand  Western  Goals  to  have  a 

5  role  in  or  relationship  to  the  Nicaraguan  contra  issue? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    So  to  the  extent  that  there  were  discussions  of 

8  the  needs  of  the  contras  or  the  situation  in  Nicaragua, 

9  those  would  have  been  centered  on  NEPL  or  Mr.  Channell's 

10  other  organizations  as  opposed  to  Western  Goals? 

11  A    That's  correct. 

12  0    And  to  the  extent  that  your  money  was  contributed 

13  to  Western  Goals,  you  understood  that  money  to  be  used  for 

14  something  other  than  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

15  A    Yes. 

16  0    Did  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  visit  your  home  in 

17  Connecticut? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  0    Can  you  tell  me  on  what  occasions,  not  necessarily 

20  dates,  but  if  you  can  put  it  in  any  kind  of  context  that 

21  would  be  helpful. 

22  A    It's  almost  impossible  to.   I  would  just  be 


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1    i       1  guessing. 

2  0    Can  you  tell  me  how  many  times  they  came,  to  the 

3  best  of  your  recollection,  setting  aside  the  time  they  came 

4  with  Colonel  North? 

5  A    Probably  about  twice  together,  and  Mr.  Channell 

6  maybe  once  or  twice  by  himself. 

7  0    What  were  the  purposes  of  those  visits,  as  best 

8  you  can  recall? 

9  A    To  show  me  ads;  to  take  a  break.   Just  to  keep  my 

10  interest  up. 

11  0    In  the  course  of  those  visits  to  your  home,  did 

12  Mr.  Channell  ever  discuss  Nicaragua  with  yoii  or  the  contras? 

13  A    Not  really. 

14  MR.  HORGAN:   Are  you  talking  about  the  ones  with 

15  Mr.  Conrad  at  the  moment? 

16  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

17  0    Yes.   We  will  focus  on  the  ones  with  Mr.  Conrad. 

18  When  Mr.  Channell  came  with  Mr.  Conrad,  what  were 

19  the  purposes  of  those  visits? 

20  A    That  was  really  in  reference  to  Western  Goals. 

21  0    How  about  when  Mr.  Channell  came  by  himself?   Do 

22  you  recall  him  discussing  Nicaragua? 


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1  A    Only  in  showing  me  the  ads  they  were  putting  in, 

2  the  lobbying  situation;  yes. 

3  0    The  records  you  have  produced  for  us, 

4  Mrs.  Newington,  show  a  series  of  contributions  in  the  first 

5  part  of  1985  totaling  approximately  a  little  over  $200,000 

6  to  a  ACTSEF,  American  Conservative  Trust  State  Election 

7  Fund. 

8  The  records  also  show  acknowledgments  of  those 

9  contributions  received  from  the  National  Endowment  for  the 

10  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

11  Let  me  show  you  an  example.   My  question  may 

12  become  clear  in  a  moment.   I  don't  think  it's  necessary  to 

13  mark  all  these  as  exhibits  because  my  question  is  really  one 

14  of  explanation,  not  of  identification. 

15  But  if  you  compare  some  of  the  records  that  you 

16  produced  to  us,  you  have,  for  example,  a  check  —  let  me  see 

17  if  I  can  find  one. 

18  MR.  MORGAN:   January  14  or  15,  $33,800. 

19  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH; 

20  Q    Here's  one,  for  example.   Let's  do  this  one.   We 

21  have  a  check  made  to  the  American  Conservative  Trust, 

22  January  14,  1985,  in  the  amount  of  $33,800.   And  then  we 


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]   :i       1  have  an  acknowledgment  letter  dated  February  28,  1986, 

2  approximately  a  year  later  from  the  National  Endowment  for 

3  the  Preservation  of  Liberty,  acknowledging  33,800  to  the 

4  National  Endowment. 

5  Just  so  you  are  with  me  here,  there  are  a  series 

6  of  acknowledgment  letters,  all  dated  February  28,  1986,  all 

7  of  which  acknowledge  gifts  to  the  National  Endowment, 

8  including  a  number  of  gifts  where  the  checks  were  actually 

9  written  to  the  American  Conservative  Trust  State  Election 

10  Fund. 

11  Do  you  know,  first  of  all,  why  these 

12  acknowledgments  were  sent  and,  secondly,  why  they  were 

13  acknowledged  as  gifts  to  the  National  Endowment  when  it 

14  would  appear  that  the  checks  were  originally  written  to  the 

15  American  Conservative  Trust  State  Election  Fund? 

16  A    I  don't  know  why.   I  don't  know. 

17  0    Did  you  request  the  acknowledgments  from  NEPL? 

18  A    Yes,  I  did. 

19  0    Did  you  do  that  as  a  matter  of  course  or  routine, 

20  or  did  you  specifically  at  some  time  request  NEPL  to  provide 

21  you  with  acknowledgments? 

22  A    I  had  asked  them  every  time  if  they  would.   I 


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1  think  they  just  decided  to  lump  them  all  together,  you  know. 

2  0    The  acknowledgments  that  we  have  been  examining 

3  are  dated  in  some  cases  a  year  or  more  after  the  actual 

4  contributions  were  made.   And  there's  a  whole  series  of  them 

5  dated  February  28th. 

6  Did  you  request  them  for  tax  purposes  in  1986,  do 

7  you  know? 

8  A    There  was  no  particular  reason,  except  I  knew  I 

9  should  have  them  for  tax  purposes. 

10  0    On  matters  like  this,  did  you  deal  directly  with 

11  the  people  at  NEPL  or  did  your  accountants  —  did  you  have 

12  accountants  or  people  who  might  have  made  requests  on  your 

13  behalf? 

14  A    No.   I  dealt  directly. 

15  0    And  as  you  sit  here  today,  do  you  have  any 

16  recollection  at  all  as  to  why  a  contribution  might  have  been 

17  made  to  ACTSEF  and  an  acknowledgment  might  have  been 

18  received  from  them? 

19  A    I  don't  know. 

20  MR.  HORGAN:   Mr.  McGough,  I  would  like  the  record 

21  to  indicate  that  you  are  correct  that  the  payees  on  all  the 

22  checks  in  question  here  was  the  ACTSEF,  and  although  the 


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1  acknowledgments  dated  February  28,  1986  came  from  NEPL, 

2  Mrs.  Newington  deducted  none  of  these  contributions  on  her 

3  federal  or  state  tax  returns. 

4  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That  was  going  to  be  really  my  next 

5  line  of  inquiry  was  looking  at  your  tax  returns, 

6  Mrs.  Newington. 

7  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

8  0    There  were  some  contributions  made  to  NEPL  and 

9  other  Channell-related  organizations  that  you  deducted  and 

10  some  contributions  that  you  did  not  deduct,  including  a 

11  number  of  the  contributions  which  went  in  on  ACTSEF  checks 

12  and  were  acknowledged  on  NEPL  as  contributions  to  NEPL. 

13  Can  you  explain  to  me  why  you  drew  that 

14  distinction,  why  you  deducted  some  of  these  matters  but  not 

15  others? 

16  A    I  knew  that  the  —  I  was  sure  of  the  National 

17  Endowment  being  tax  deductible.   The  others  I  was  not 

18  totally  sure  of.   And  I  didn't  need  to  take  deductions;  I've 

19  got  such  a  big  carryover  anyhow.   So  I  just  didn't  put  them 

20  in  as  deductions. 

21  0    As  to  your  contributions  to  the  National 

22  Endowment,  do  you  know  if  there  were  any  places  where  you 


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'.i       1  made  contributions  to  the  National  Endowment  and  then 

2  decided  not  to  deduct  that  amount  from  your  income  tax? 

3  A     Yes.   There  could  have  been  some  that  I  have  not 

4  deducted. 

5  0    And  why  would  you  have  not  deducted  those? 

6  A    Well,  as  I  say,  such  a  big  carryover,  it's  almost 

7  foolish  to  put  it  in. 

8  0    But  was  there  anything  about  specific 

9  contributions  to  NEPL  that  you  viewed  as  deductible  or  not 

10  deductible? 

11  MR.  MORGAN:   Can  I  have  the  last  question  read 

12  back? 

13  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Sure.   I'll  repeat  it. 

14  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

15  0    Was  there  anything  about  specific  contributions  to 

16  NEPL  that  you  viewed  as  making  them  either  deductible  or 

17  non-deductible?  Did  you  distinguish  among  your 

18  contributions  to  NEPL  in  any  way? 

19  A     No. 

20  0    So  that  it  wasn't  a  situation  where  some  of  the 

21  contributions  you  were  making  to  NEPL  you  considered 

22  deductible  because  they  were  made  for  one  purpose,  whereas 


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other  contributions  were  made  for  other  purposes  and  were 
not  deductible? 
A    No. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Perhaps  to  clarify  the  record,  one  of 
your  earlier  questions  in  effect  assumed,  the  way  you 
phrased  it,  that  she  made  a  decision  not  to  deduct  some  of 
the  NEPL  contributions,  and  I  think  her  answer  was  in  the 
affirmative.   But  I  think  her  subsequent  testimony  has 
indicated  that  she  did  not  make  a  decision  to  do  so  as 
such. 

You  may  wish  to  inquire. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  guess  my  question  was  —  and  I 
guess  I  would  have  to  check  the  records  —  but  my  question 
was  whether  there  were  contributions  made  to  NEPL,  checks 
perhaps  or  stock  given  to  NEPL,  that  were  not  reflected  as 
deductions  on  her  tax  returns. 

MR.  HORGAN:   That  is  correct.   The  records  reflect 
that. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Perhaps  decision  was  inartful.   I 
guess  what  I  was  trying  to  illustrate  was  there  were  in  fact 
some  contributions  made  to  NEPL  that  were  deducted  and  some 
contributions  made  to  NEPL  that  were  not  deducted. 


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1  MR.  MORGAN:   That  is  correct. 

2  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   The  records  bear  that  out. 

3  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   My  next  question  is  why  the 

4  distinction?   And  Mrs.  Newington  explained  she  does-n '  t  need 

5  the  loss  carryover,  but  I  was  still  interested  in  why  she 

6  would  deduct  in  some  cases  and  not  deduct  in  others;  why  she 

7  made  a  distinction. 

8  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

9  0    Do  you  feel  the  record  is  clear  on  that? 

10  A    I  can't  think  of  any  particular  reason,  except 

11  perhaps  tax-wise  is  all. 

12  MR.  HORGAN:   Just  one  moment. 

13  (Counsel  for  the  witness  confer.) 

14  MR.  HORGAN:   In  the  course  of  preparing  for  this 

15  deposition  and  other  inquiries,  I  had  occasion  to  look  at 

16  the  records  and  talk  with  Mrs.  Newington  about  the  subject 

17  matter  of  your  question,  and  I  think  it  was  inadvertent  that 

18  some  —  as  opposed  to  an  affirmative  decision  or  a  negative 

19  decision  as  opposed  to  a  decision,  I  think  it  was 

20  inadvertent  that  certain  contributions  to  NEPL  were  not 

21  deducted  or  not  reported  to  her  accountant  for  purposes  of 
22 


taking  a  deduction. 


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2   .i       1  Mrs.  Newington  did  not  --  kept  a  folder  of  her 

2  separate  contributions,  and  I  gather  on  an  annual  basis 

3  provided  information  to  her  accountant. 

4  Just  one  moment. 

5  (Counsel  for  the  witness  confer.) 

6  MR.  HORGAN:   Off  the  record. 

7  MR,  MC  GOUGH:   Let  me  finish  up. 

8  MR.  HORGAN:   This  is  on  the  same  subject  of  who 

9  made  what  decision. 

10  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Why  don't  you  jot  a  note  and  then 

11  do  it  at  the  end  because  I  just  have  a  couple  of  questions. 

12  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

13  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

14  0    Mrs.  Newington,  did  you  ever  hear  a  reference  by 

15  Mr.  Channell  or  anyone  associated  with  him  to  the  Toys 

16  Project  or  Project  for  Toys? 

17  A    No. 

18  0    Were  you  ever  solicited  or  asl^ed  to  contribute  to 

19  an  account  to  provide  toys  —  to  provide  toys  to  the 

20  children  of  the  Nicaraguan  freedom  fighters? 

21  A    No. 

22  Q    Did  anyone  ever  as)c  you  to  refer  to  Colonel  North 


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by  another  name? 

A    Yes. 

0    In  what  context  did  that  arise? 

A    Green.   Mr.  Green. 

0    Who  asked  you  to  do  that? 

A    Mr.  Channell. 

0    Do  you  recall  when  he  asked  you  to  do  that?   When 
was  the  first  time  he  raised  that  with  you? 

A  He  never  mentioned  it,  except  he  would  use  the 
word,  and  so  I  just  gathered  that  that's  what  they  would 
like  to  use  when  talking  on  the  phone  or  something. 

0    When  you  mentioned  or  spoke  of  Colonel  North  with 
Mr.  Channell,  did  you  also  use  the  name  Mr.  Green? 

A    I  always  avoided  it  somehow. 

0    You  mean  you  avoided  trying  to  refer  to  him  by  any 
name  at  all? 

A    Yes. 

0    Did  you  ever  ask  Mr.  Channell  why  you  were  using  a 
code  name  for  Mr.  North? 

A    No. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Back  on  the  record. 


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1  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

2  Q    Were  you  aware  of  any  other  code  names  that  were 

3  being  used  by  the  NEPL  people? 

4  A     No. 

5  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  think  that's  all  I  have. 

6  Why  don't  you  go  ahead,  before  Tom  and  Ken  clean 

7  up  a  little  bit,  why  don't  you  go  ahead  and  ask  your 

8  questions? 

9  EXAMINATION 

10  BY  MR.  HORGAN: 

11  0    Mrs.  Newington,  when  you  found  yourself  giving  to 

12  charitable  organizations,  did  you  inquire,  either  orally  or 

13  by  letter,  as  to  their  tax-exempt  status  from  time  to  time? 

14  A    Yes,  I  did. 

15  0    And  did  your  donee  organizations  occasionally 

16  provide  you  with  letters,  copies  of  letters  from  the  IRS 

17  relating  to  their  tax  status? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  0    And  did  Mr.  Channell  do  so  on  a  number  of 

20  occasions? 

21  A    Yes. 

22  Q    Have  you  produced,  included  among  the  documents 


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that  we  produced  in  the  response  to  the  subpoena  and  the 
court  immunity  orders,  those  letters  which  you  did  receive 
from  Mr.  Channell  relating  to  the  tax  status  of  his 
organizations? 

A    Yes. 

0    Can  you  tell  us  from  your  memory  how  it  was  that 
you  learned  what  you  should  do  in  making  tax-deductible 
gifts;  from  whom  you  learned  this  over  the  years? 

A    That  was  from  my  husband,  because  this  had  been  a 
pattern  that  we  had  followed  for  many  years. 

0    And  that  pattern  was  to  do  what? 

A    Well,  to  always  get  a  support  letter  of  the  tax 
deductibility  of  whatever  you  give  to. 

0    On  an  annual  basis,  did  you  make  available  what 
records  you  had  to  your  accountant  in  response  to  his 
inquiries? 

A    Yes . 

(Counsel  for  the  witness  confer.) 
BY  MR.  HORGAN: 

0  And  was  the  same  general  procedure  followed  by  you 
with  respect  to  the  donations  over  the  recent  years  that  you 
made  to  other  non-Channell  organizations? 


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1  A    Say  that  again,  please. 

2  0    Did  you  follow  the  same  procedures  in  recent  years 

3  with  respect  to  non-Channell  organizations? 

4  A    Oh,  yes. 

5  0    You  mentioned  your  charitable  carry  forwards.   I 

6  take  it,  then,  that  over  recent  years  you  made  substantial 

7  other  charitable  donations  having  nothing  whatever  to  do 

8  with  Mr.  Channell  or  any  of  his  organizations? 

9  A    That's  correct. 

10  MR.  MORGAN:   No  further  questions. 

11  EXAMINATION 

12  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

13  0    Mrs.  Newington,  I  have  a  few  questions.   You  have 

14  testified  about  contributions  that  you've  made  to  various  of 

15  Mr.  Channell' s  organizations.   And  as  to  some  of  those 

16  organizations  you  took  tax  deductions,  and  others  you  did 

17  not;  is  that  correct? 

18  A    That's  correct. 

19  0    In  your  discussions  with  Mr.  Channell  when  he 

20  would  call  you  seeking  a  contribution,  he  would  specify 

21  which  organization  he  would  like  the  contribution  to  go  to; 

22  is  that  correct? 


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1       ^i  1  A  That's    right. 

2  0    Did  you  ever  authorize  Mr.  Channell  in  any  way  to 

3  transfer  the  contribution  you  had  made  to  one  of  his 

4  organizations  to  another  of  his  organizations? 

5  A    No. 
0    You  have  spoken  this  morning  about  discussions 

with  Mr.  Channell  and  Colonel  North  about  a  contribution 

8  that  was  to  be  used  for  construction  of  an  airfield  and  the 

9  purchase  of  a  reconnaissance  plane;  is  that  correct? 

10  A    That's  correct. 

11  0    Were  you  ever  told  by  Colonel  North  that  your 

12  contribution  was  used  for  that  purpose? 

13  A    Never  specifically;  no. 

14  0    What  was  said  by  Colonel  North  with  regard  to 

15  that? 

16  A    Oddly  enough,  I  don't  think  I  ever  heard  that  this 

17  amount  was  used  for  that.   I  don't  think  I  ever  heard  that. 

18  I  just  assumed  that  whatever  I  gave  went  where  it  went. 

19  0    Did  Mr.  Channell  ever  say  anything  about  the  use 

20  of  those  contributions? 

21  A    No;  except  for  things,  particular  ads  in  papers  or 

22  television  spots  or  something. 


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1   ci       1         0    Do  you  know  if  the  reconnaissance  plane  was  ever 

2  purchased? 

3  A    I  have  no  way  of  being  absolutely  certain;  no. 

4  0    Did  anyone  ever  give  any  indication  to  you  that  it 

5  was  purchased? 

6  A    No. 

7  0    Did  anyone  ever  give  any  indication  to  you  that 

8  there  was  any  money  spent  on  an  airfield? 

9  A    No,  not  really. 

10  0    Mrs.  Newington,  were  there  any  funds  transferred 

11  to  you  in  any  way  which  were  then  used  for  you  to  make  a 

12  contribution  to  one  of  Mr.  Channell's  organizations? 

13  A    No. 

14  0    Was  there  ever  any  discussion  of  any  transfer  of 

15  that  sort? 

16  A    No. 

17  0    You  mentioned  that  you  requested  from 

18  Mr.  Channell,  I  believe,  some  documentation  as  to  the 

19  tax-exempt  status  of  certain  of  his  organizations,  and  you 

20  received  such  documentation. 

21  Did  you  have  any  other  communications  with 

22  Mr.  Channell  or  with  anyone  in  his  organization  about  the 


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tax  deductibility  of  your  contributions? 
A    No. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Just  a  moment. 
(Counsel  confers  with  the  witness.) 
MR.  HORGAN:   Your  question,  I  believe/  was  whether 
there  was  --  in  effect,  your  question  was  any  other 
communications  besides  the  letters  that  have  been  referred 
to  and  which  we  produced,  and  I  think  the  witness  could  add 
to  her  answer. 

THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   Telephone  calls,  discussions 
on  the  telephone. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0    Were  these  discussions  with  Mr.  Channell? 
A    Yes. 

0    What  did  he  tell  you  in  these  discussions? 
A    Well,  for  instance,  if  I  asked  him  for  the 
501(c)(3)  of  NEPL,  he  would  say  "Certainly."   And  I  received 
it.   I  was  sent  it  and  I  received  it.   Nothing  much  more 
than  that. 

I  mean  if  I  requested  it  on  the  phone,  he  would 
see  that  I  received  it. 

0    Was  there  any  discussion  with  Mr.  Channell  as  to 


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1   ,i       1  the  tax  deductibility  of  any  particular  contribution  that 

2  you  were  making? 

3  A    No. 

4  0    Did  he  ever  tell  you  that  any  of  your 

5  contributions  could  not  be  deducted  on  your  tax  returns? 

6  A    Yes.   There  was  something  like  the  Sentinel.   A 

7  few  of  the  state  election  funds  were  not  deductible.   He 

8  made  me  aware  of  that. 

9  0    Did  you  discuss  with  Mr.  Channell  the 

10  deductibility  of  the  contributions  for  the  airfield  and  the 

11  reconnaissance  plane? 

12  A    No,  because  it  was  given  to  —  I  mean  the 

13  contribution  was  given  to  the  NEPL,  and  that's  all  that  it 

14  meant  to  me. 

15  0    What  was  your  conclusion  from  the  fact  that  it  was 

16  given  to  NEPL  about  the  tax  deductibility? 

17  A    Well,  I  assumed  that  it  was  definitely  tax 

18  deductible.   I  have  the  501(c)(3)  letter. 

19  0    Did  he  instruct  you  to  make  the  contribution  for 

20  these  purposes  to  NEPL? 

21  A    Yes. 

22  Q    Can  you  identify,  Mrs.  Newington,  the  particular 


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1  contributions  that  you  made  for  these  purposes?   That  is, 

2  the  construction  of  the  airfield  and  the  reconnaissance 

3  plane. 

4  A    I  really  can't  pinpoint,  you  know,  this  check  went 

5  for  that.   It's  very  hard  to  do. 

6  0    In  your  answers  to  Mr.  McGough's  questions,  you 

7  referred  to  a  number  of  meetings  with  Mr.  Channell  and 

8  Colonel  North,  and  there  were  references  during  certain  of 

9  these  meetings  to  weapons  for  the  Resistance  in  Nicaragua. 

10  And  I  believe  at  the  beginning  of  the  deposition, 

11  you  mentioned  that  that  was  one  of  the  subjects  that  had 

12  come  up. 

13  Focusing  on  that  particular  area  of  discussions,  I 

14  would  like  to  go  back  and  review  the  meetings,  beginning 

15  with  your  first  recollection  of  discussion  of  weapons  of  any 

16  sort  with  Mr.  Channell  or  Colonel  North. 

17  What  was  the  first  occasion? 

18  A    The  briefing  with  Colonel  North. 

19  0    When  was  that? 

20  A    That  was  June  25th,  I  think. 

21  0    June  of  1985  briefing? 

22  A    Uh-huh. 


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1   ci       1  0  And  what  did  he  say  in  that  briefing  about 

2  weapons? 

3  A  Only  to  mention  the  name,  that  they  needed 

4  weapons;  that  it  was  a  very  important  part  of  their 

5  equipment. 

6  0  Did  he  specify  any  types  of  weapons? 

7  A  Not  to  me;  no. 

8  0  Did  he  mention  ammunition? 

9  A  No. 

10  0  Grenades? 

11  A  No. 

12  0  Mines? 

13  A  No. 

14  0  Did  he  mention  any  dollar  amount  needed  to 

15  purchase  weapons? 

16  A  No. 

17  0  After  the  briefing  with  Colonel  North,  you  met 

18  with  Mr.  Channell;  is  that  correct? 

19  A  Yes. 

20  0  Now,  did  Mr.  Channell  say  anything  about  weapons 

21  following  that  briefing? 

22  A    No.   You  mean  to  ask  me  for  money  for  weapons  or 


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something? 

0    Or  was  there  any  reference  to  the  briefing  and 
Colonel  North's  reference  to  weapon^? 

A  No,  not  particularly.  There  was  reference  to  the 
briefing  because  we  talked  about  what  was  said,  but  nothing 
pertaining  particularly  to  weapons. 

0    When  was  the  next  occasion  the  weapons  were 
mentioned  either  by  Mr.  Channell  or  Colonel  North? 

A    It  never  was  to  me  particularly. 

MR.  HORGAN:   I  think  a  clarification  would  be  that 
she  has  testified  earlier  today  that  at  various  times  during 
these  solicitations  made  by  Mr.  Channell,  the  subject  of 
equipment,  supplies,  or  food  and  weapons  would  be  included 
in  that  list.   And  I  think  it  was  mentioned  on  more  than  one 
occasion  by  Mr.  Channell,  and  that  during  various  of  the 
solicitations  it  may  have  been  mentioned. 

So  when  you  say  "never,"  it's  a  question  of  never 
saying  never.   I  think  it  did  come  up  on  more  than  one 
occasion  following  the  initial  briefing.   I  think  some  of 
her  testimony  earlier  today  may  have  referred  to  that. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

Q    Other  than  the  references  that  you  made  earlier 


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1  today  to  discussion  of  weapons,  Mrs.  Newington,  can  you 

2  recall  any  other  discussion? 

3  A    No. 

4  0    Mrs.  Newington,  Mr.  McGough  asked  you  several 

5  questions  about  the  Western  Goals  organization  and  you  had 

6  been  an  active  supporter  of  that  for  a  number  of  years;  is 

7  that  correct? 

8  A    That's  correct. 

9  0    Now,  the  Executive  Director  of  that  organization, 

10  or  the  person  in  charge  of  the  organization  had  been  a  woman 

11  named  Linda  Guell;  had  it  not? 

12  A    That's  correct. 

13  0    Did  she  continue  with  the  organization  after 

14  Mr.  Channell  assumed  control  of  it? 

15  A    Yes,  for  a  very  brief  time. 

16  0    And  then  was  she  replaced,  or  did  she  resign  or 

17  what? 

18  A    She  resigned,  and  she  was  not  replaced  as  far  as  I 

19  know. 

20  0    Did  she  start  another  organization? 

21  A    No.   She  just  went  to  another  job. 

22  0    Have  you  had  any  contact  with  Linda  Guell  since 


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1  she  left  Western  Goals? 

2  A    Well,  in  the  beginning  when  she  left,  she  would 

3  keep  in  contact  with  me;  yes. 

4  0    What  was  the  nature  of  that  contact? 

5  A    We  had  been  friends,  you  see,  for  a  long  time 

6  because  of  Congressman  MacDonald.   So  it  was  just  a  friendly 

7  basis  to  keep  me  informed  as  to  what  her  problems  were  and 

8  what  she  was  about  to  do,  and  her  resigning  from  Western 

9  Goals  when  Mr.  Channell  had  it. 

10  0    Did  she  comment  in  these  conversations  on 

11  Mr.  Channell? 

12  A    Yes.   She  was  not  happy  to  be  working  for  him. 

13  0    What  did  she  say? 

14  A    That  she  had  been  relegated  to  the  job,  more  or 

15  less,  of  a  secretary  and  she  had  not  been  used  to  that.   She 

16  just  wasn't  happy. 

17  ■    0    Did  she  have  any  specific  criticisms  about  how 

18  Mr.  Channell  was  running  the  organizations? 

19  A    No.   Not  specifically.   She  was  just  not  pleased 

20  with  his  attitude  to  her.   That's  all. 

21  0    Other  than  treating  her  like  a  secretary,  what 

22  examples  did  she  give? 


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1  A    I  don't  think  there  were  any  others.   That  was  the 

2  main  thing  that  she  really  was  upset  about. 

3  0    When  was  the  last  time  you  spoke  with  Linda  Guell? 

4  A    Several  months  ago. 

5  0    Was  it  in  1987? 

6  A    Yes.   I  think  I  had  a  chat  with  her  in  the 

7  beginning  of  '87. 

8  0    When  was  the  last  time  you  spoke  with 

9  Mr.  Channell? 

10  A    The  visit  in  New  York  in  '87. 

11  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 

12  THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   Phone  calls  and  other  matters 

13  always  on  Western  Goals.   Western  Goals  was  starting  a  new 

14  project  and  he  would  call  me  particularly  about  that. 

15  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

16  0    When  was  the  last  time  you  spoke  with  him  on  the 

17  telephone? 

18  A    It  must  have  been  probably  March. 

19  0    And  the  last  time  you  met  with  him  face  to  face 

20  was  when? 

21  A    I  think  that  was  early  March. 

22  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 


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BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0    And  did  these  meetings  relate  to  a  new  fundraising 
project? 

A    Yes. 

MR.  HORGAN:   Meeting,  singular. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0    Meeting,  singular.   The  meeting  and  telephone 
conversation  or  conversations. 

Did  he  say  anything  about  the  operations  of  NEPL 
and  the  fundraising  he  had  done  with  respect  to  Nicaragua? 
A    Not  to  me;  no. 

0    Have  you  spoken  with  Mr.  Channell's  attorneys? 
A    No. 

MR.  HORGAN:   At  what  point  in  time  does  your 
question  go  to? 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Let's  say  any  time  in  the  last  three 
years. 

(Coynsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 
MR.  HORGAN:   Very  recently,  the  same  day  that 
Mr.  Channell  pleaded  guilty  in  court,  Mrs.  Newington 
received  a  telephone  call  from  Alexia  Morrison.   Pursuant  to 


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1  my  suggestion,  Mrs.  Newington  simply  referred  Ms.  Morrison 

2  to  me  and  I  then  received  a  telephone  call  from 

3  Ms.  Morrison;  simply  advised  me  so  that  I  would  learn  first 

4  from  her  rather  than  from  the  press  of  his  guilty  plea. 

5  And  I  believe  that  the  only  conversation 

6  Mrs.  Newington  had  was  a  very  brief  one  from  Mr.  Channel's 

7  lawyer  where  she  essentially  referred  Ms.  Morrison  to  me. 

8  That  would  have  been  the  day  that  he  made  his  plea. 

9  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

10  0    Mrs.  Newington,  other  than  this  call  that  has  been 

11  described  on  the  day  of  Mr.  Channell's  plea,  have  you  had 

12  any  other  meeting  or  telephone  conversation  or  communication 

13  of  any  sort  with  Mr.  Channell's  attorney  during  the  last 

14  three  years? 

15  A    No. 

16  0    When  was  the  last  time  you  had  any  communication 

17  with  Colonel  North? 

18  A    The  visit  in  May. 

19  MR.  MORGAN:   Do  you  remember  anything  else? 

20  THE  WITNESS:   Actually  I  don't. 

21  MR.  HORGAN:   Just  a  moment. 

22  (Counsel  and  the  witness  confer.) 


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22 


MR.  HORGAN:   I  reminded  the  witness  that  we  have 
produced  at  your  request,  pursuant  to  the  subpoena,  her 
telephone  bills  that  included  some  references  to  calls 
placed  to  Colonel  North's  office  from  her  residence.   And  I 
believe  Mrs.  Newington  did  have  occasion  --  you  may  ask  her 
if  you  would  care  to  —  to  speak  with  Colonel  North  on  the 
telephone  since  the  last  time  that  she  saw  him,  which  was 
the  May  '86  visit. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0    Have  you  spoken  with  Colonel  North  on  the 
telephone  since  that  visit,  Mrs.  Newington? 

A    Yes. 

0    On  how  many  occasions? 

A    Twice. 

0    When  was  the  first  occasion? 

A    I  don't  remember  the  exact  time,  but  I  know  that  I 
spoke  to  his  wife.   That  was  one  call.   I  actually  hadn't 
spoken  to  him;  I  spoke  with  her. 

And  the  second  call,  I  guess,  was  speaking  to 
him. 

0    The  call  with  his  wife  —  was  that  call  before  or 
after  Colonel  North  resigned? 


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1   .i       1         A    After. 

2  Q    And  the  call  with  Colonel  North,  was  that  before 

3  or  after  he  resigned? 

4  A    After. 

5  Q    Now,  the  call  with  Colonel  North,  what  did  he  say 

6  to  you  in  that  call? 

7  A    He  said  that  —  he  just  mentioned^,  how  it  was  the 

8  first  time  at  least  he  was  able  to  fix  his  roof  on  the  house 

9  and  have  a  little  —  rather  refreshing  for  him  to  have  this 

10  time  off,  and  that  he  was  hopeful  that  everything  would  turn 

11  out  all  right. 

12  0    You  called  him;  is  that  correct? 

13  A    Yes. 

14  0    Did  anyone  suggest  that  you  call  him? 

15  A    Yes. 

16  0    Who? 

17  A    Mr.  Channell. 

18  0    Did  he  give  a  reason  why  you  should  call  him? 

19  A    Just  to  give  him  some  support  at  this  particular 

20  time.   Moral  support. 

21  0    And  did  you  call  him  at  his  home? 

22  A    Yes.   Well,  I  called  his  home  to  speak  to  Betsy; 


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1   u       1  the  second  one  was  to  his  office.   I  spoke  to  him  at  his 

2  office. 

3  0    In  this  call  with  Colonel  North,  was  there  any 

4  discussion  about  any  of  your  contributions? 

5  A    No. 

6  0    Was  there  any  discussion  about  Nicaragua  or  the 

7  Resistance? 

8  j       A    No. 

9  0    In  the  second  call  with  his  wife,  how  would  you 

10  describe  that  call?  Was  it  a  social  call? 

11  A    A  social  call. 

12  MR.  REARDON:   Pardon  me.   Wasn't  that  the  first 

13  call? 

14  THE  WITNESS:   The  first  was  to  her;  yes. 

15  MR.  FRY/MAN:   In  chronological  order,  the  call  to 

16  the  wife  was  first  and  then  followed  up  with  a  call  to  the 

17  office. 

18  THE  WITNESS:   (Nods  in  the  affirmative.) 

19  MR.  MORGAN:   Could  I  ask  just  one  simple 

20  clarifying  question? 

21  Did  you  place  the  call  to  speak  to  Mrs.  North  or 

22  to  Colonel  North?   I  gather  you  spoke  to  Mrs.  North,  but  did 


UNCLASSIFIED 

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101 

1  you  call,  trying  to  reach  — 

2  THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   Trying  to  reach  him,  and  he 

3  was  not  home.   And  so  I  spoke  with  her. 

4  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

5  0    What  did  she  say  in  your  call  with  her? 

6  A    Naturally,  she  was  very  disturbed.   She,  too,  felt 

7  that  things  would  come  all  right. 

8  0    Have  you  made  any  contribution  to  a  defense  fund 

9  for  Colonel  North? 

10  A    No. 

11  MR.  FRYMAN:   Mrs.  Newington,  I  have  no  further 

12  questions.   Thank  you  very  much. 

13  Mr.  Buck  may  have  a  few  questions. 

14  MR.  BUCK:   Mrs.  Newington,  I  have  no  questions.   I 

15  just  want  to  thank  you  very  much  for  coming  here  today. 

16  FURTHER  EXAMINATION 

17  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

18  0    Let  me,  at  the  risk  of  spoiling  everything,  let  me 

19  just  cover  two  other  letters  to  get  them  identified  and  find 

20  out  what  the  context  was  before  we  depart  here.   And  we  will 

21  mark  them  as  the  final  exhibits.   I  will  give  them  both  to 

22  you  and  try  to  do  them  together. 


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102 


(Deposition  Exhibit  Nos .  9 
and  10  identified.) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
0    Mrs.  Newington,  I  show  you  what  have  been  marked 
as  Exhibits  9  and  10,  letters  of  July  11,  1985  and 
October  6,  1985  to  you  from  Adolfo  Calero,  which  were 
supplied  by  document  production. 

Do  you  recognize  these  letters? 
A    Yes,  I  do. 

0  •   Did  you  in  fact  receive  them  from  Mr.  Calero? 
A    Yes,  I  did. 

0    The  July  11th  letter  refers  to  a  trip  to  New  York 
by  Mr.  Calero  and  also  gratitude  to  Spitz  Channell  for  an 
opportunity  to  get  to  know  you. 

Did  you  meet  with  Mr.  Calero  in  New  York? 
A    Yes,  I  did. 

0    What  was  the  purpose  of  that  meeting? 
A    I  believe  Mr.  Channell  again  arranged  this 
meeting.   I  think  that  he  just  wanted  me  to  be  brought 
further  into  the  Nicargaun  picture  and  have  direct 
contact  with  the  man  who  was  running  the  operations 
down  there. 

There  was  no  solicitation  of  funds  at  that  time. 


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LftSSiFIED 


103 


0    Did  Mr.  Calero  describe  the  needs  of  the  contras 
at  that  meeting? 
Yes. 


Did  he  talk  about  both  military  and  non-military 


A 

0 
needs? 

A    To  me  it  was  all  non-military. 

0  After  that  meeting  with  Mr.  Calero,  did  you  ever 
have  occasion  to  speak  with  him  again,  either  in  person  or 
over  the  telephone? 

A    No. 

0    You  received  what  has  been  marked  as  Exhibit  10,' 
the  October  6th  letter,  did  you  not?   You  ultimately 
received  a  letter  from  him  on  October  6th;  is  that  right? 

MR.  HORGAN:   So  that  the  record  is  clear.  Exhibit 
9,  we  believe,  was  received  by  Mrs.  Newington  through  the 
mails  and  we  believe  that  Exhibit  10,  which  is  the  October 
6th  letter,  was  delivered  to  her  by  Mr.  Channell  or  one  of 
his  colleagues,  and  that  he  had  in  some  fashion  received  it 
from  its  author,  Mr.  Calero  —  from  its  purported  author, 
Mr.  Calero. 

BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

Q    Had  you  had  any  communications  with  Mr.  Calero 


S 


PORTERS,  Inc. 


tn-i  lA-r  inr.r, 


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leading  up  to  the  October  6th  letter,  other  than  the  ones  we 
have  discussed? 

A    No. 

0    Were  you  surprised  to  receive  that  letter? 

A    Yes. 

0    Why  did  you  understand  you  had  received  it? 

A    Are  you  talking  about  this  letter?   (Indicating.) 

0    Yes,  the  second  letter,  the  October  6th  letter. 

A    I  gathered  Mr.  Channell  must  have  told  him  of  my 
involvement  and  he  was  just  thanking  me. 

0    Can  you  tell  me  what  the  Larry  MacIDonald  Brigade 
is? 

A    Yes.   That  was  something  that  was  formed  just 
because  Mr.  Calero  and  Congressman  MacDonald  had  been 
friends.   And  he  was  a  great  admirer  —  Calero  was  a  great 
admirer  of  MacDonald  and  thought  it  would  be  a  very  nice 
thing  to  name  a  task  force  after  him. 

0    By  a  task  force,  you  mean  a  military  unit?  is  that 
right? 

A    That's  right. 

0    The  October  6th  indicates  that  you  helped  in 
forming  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade;  is  that  correct? 


Ace-Federal  KEPORTERS,  Inc. 


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9210  07  01 

1   .i       1        A    That's  correct. 

2  0    And  how  did  you  help? 

3  A    By  contributing  money  through  Mr.  Channell.   It 

4  was  all  the  same. 

5  0    That  was  going  to  be  my  next  question. 

6  In  order  to  form  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade,  you 

7  made  your  contributions  through  Mr.  Channell? 

8  A    That's  correct. 

9  0    And  that  would  be  through  NEPL;  that  wasn't 

10  through  a  separate  organization? 

11  A    No . 

12  0    When  you  made  contributions,  did  you  earmark  them, 

13  at  least  with  Mr.  Channell,  specifically  for  the  Larry 

14  MacDonald  Brigade,  or  did  you  view  all  the  contras  as 

15  essentially  interchangeable  and  just  made  general 

16  contributions? 

17  A    The  latter  is  correct. 

18  0    So  you  didn't  earmark  specific  contributions  for 

19  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade? 

20  A    No. 

21  0    Did  you  understand  that  money  being  provided  to 

22  Mr.  Channell  would  be  used  to  buy  —  at  least  part  of  the 


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UNCIASSIFIED 


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money  would  be  used  to  buy  supplies  for  the  Larry  MacDonald 
Brigade? 

A    That's  correct. 

0    Did  you  ever  understand  that  part  of  that  money 
would  be  used  to  buy  arms  for  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade? 

A    No.   It  was  mainly  uniforms.   That's  what  I 
understood. 

0    And  who  told  you  that,  if  you  can  recall? 
A    Mr.  Calero.   Both  of  them. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  have  nothing  further. 
MR.  FRYMAN:   Nothing  further. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:35  o'clock  p.m.,  the  taking  of 
the  deposition  was  concluded.) 


oNMm 


RTERS,  Inc. 


202-347-3700 


Naiionwidg  Cnvgragg 


anf>-33»i-^;/u/i 


466 


CERTIPICA' 


I,  KAREN  N.  ILSEMA^TN  the  officer  before  whom 
the  foregoing  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby  certify 
that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the 
foregoing  deposition  was  duly  sworn  by  me;  that 
the  testimony  of  said  witness  was  taken  in  shorthand 
and  thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by  me  or  under 
my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a  true  record 
of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am 
neither  counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by 
any  of  the  parties  to  the  action  in  which  this 
deposition  was  taken;  and,  further,  that  I  am  not 
a  relative  or  employee  of  any  attorney  or  counsel 
employed  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor  financially 
or  otherwis'j  interested  in  the  outcome  of  this  action. 


107 


Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


My  Commission  Expires    FEBRUARY  14,  1991 


DNCLASSIFIF 


467 


/  o  Oc:t^s- 


^^' 


x"" 


3N 


THE  WHITE  HOLSE 

WASHINGTON 


October  10,  1985 


Dear  Mrs.  Newington; 


I  want  to  take  this  opportunity  to  express  to 
you  my  deep  appreciation  for  the  selfless, 
patriotic  support  you  have  provided  so 
unflinchingly  to  this  Administration  and  to  our 
policies. 

Among  the  most  important  of  our  policies,  of 
course,  is  the  promotion  of  liberty  and 
democracy  abroad.   Your  invaluable  assistance 
for  the  cause  of  freedom,  in  helping  to  educate 
others  and  in  actively  supporting  those  who  so 
much  depend  on  us,  is  a  credit  to  this  great 
nation. 

We  are  grateful  for  your  commitment  to  that 
cause  and  for  your  continuing  support. 

God  bless  you  for  your  steadfastness. 

Sincerely, 


\   ^(SV-vAflL  f  ^i^tjL^-^s. 


Greenwich,  Connecticut  06836 


0191 


Partially  Declassified/ReleascJ  onJbf^89 
under  provisions  ol  E  0   '.?mS 
by  K,  Johnson.  Nalionj!  Soc.  .„  Council 


SS34 


UNCIASSIFI 


468 


;^  V  J^<f'(' 


NJ^TIONAL  SECURITY  COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON.  O  C.    2090« 


BN 


0188 


ONCUSSIFIED 


January    24,    1986 


ni\\/4cY 


Dear  Barbara: 

During  1985,  the  hope  freedom  and  democracy  in  Nicaragua  was  kept 
alive  with  the  help  of  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation 
of  Liberty  and  fine  Americans  such  as  you.   Because  you  cared, 
the  spark  of  liberty  still  glows  in  the  darkness  of  Nicaragua. 

Without  patriots  like  you,  carrying  out  the  President's  policy  of 
support  for  a  democratic  outcome  in  Nicaragua  would  have  been 
even  more  difficult.   Your  efforts  and  those  of  the  National 
Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty  continue  to  play  a 
crucial  role  in  the  democratic  drama  unfolding  in  Nicaragua. 
Your  support  has  been  essential  to  those  who  struggle  against  the 
tyranny  and  oppression  of  the  totalitarian  communist  regime  in 
Managua.   You  have  given  hope  where  there  would  otherwise  be 
despair. 

Last  year  was  a  challenging  time  for  America  and  her  President. 
But,  we  are  headed  in  the  right  direction.   Today,  in  all  of 
Central  America  only  Nicaragua  is  not  a  democracy.   You  can  be 
proud  that  you  have  made  a  crucial  contribution  in  helping  our 
President  in  this  vital  endeavor.   In  the  weeks  ahead,  we  will 
commence  a  renewed  effort  to  make  our  assistance  to  the 
Democratic  Resistance  Forces  even  more  effective.   Once  again 
your  support  will  be  essential. 

All  my  best  for  the  New  Year  and  God  bless  you.  "" 


Sincerely, 


.V.-osocT 


Oliver  L.  North 
Deputy  Director 
Political-Military  Affairs 


»aiiv  BLLlujJifiu(KReleased  on  llPg^&8 
DiKir  nfaiininni  iil  jiO  loooj. 
•<    Jomson.  Natranal  Security  Council 


rs.    Barbar^a— Newington 


^335" 


Jreenwich,    CT      0683< 


UNClASSIFlEi 


469 


FUER2A     DEMOCRATICA      NICARAGOENSE 

BN  0185 


July  11th,  1985 

Mrs.  Barbara  Newington 

^ peiv/»cy> 

reenwTch,  Connecticut  O6836 


Dear  Mrs.  Newington » 

My  trip  to  New  York  was  an  inspiration.   The  Larry  McDonald 
task  force  is  already  forming. 

I  am  grateful  to  Spitz  Channel  for  the  opportunity  to  get 
to  know  you.   Your  support  smd  patriotic  contribution  touches  all 
of  us. 

We  will  not  disappoint  you,  our  countrymen  or  President 
Reagam.  Freedom  will  return  to  Nicaragua  bacause  we  believe  God 
wants  it  there.  God  bless  you. 

Sincere lyt 


"■r-^ 


Adolfo  Calero  Portocarrero 


Partially  Oeclassiried/Reieased  nn   Xtfj  B  %Q 
under  provisions  of  E  0  123S6 
by  K  Johnson,  National  Security  Council 


.^yy. 


UKCUSSIFIED 


470 


_    (i>0. 


FUgBZA     DEMOCRATICA      NICARAGUENSE 


mmmm 


BN 


0186 


October  6,  1985 

Mrs.  Barbara  NeMington 

Dear  Mrs.  Newington: 

I  am  dictating  this  letter  from  our  command  center  and 
have  asked  Mr.  Channell  to  help  get  it  to  you. 

You  are  a  great  lady  and  a  true  friend  of  the  cause  of 
freedom  in  Nicaragua.   Your  help  in  forming  the  Larry 
MacDonald  Brigade  touched  us  all.   Without  Americans 
like  you  we  can  not  succeed. 

We  have  begun  a  major  push  to  unite  the  forces  in  the 
South  with  those  fighting  in  the  North.   You  will  be 
proud  to  know  that  the  Larry  MacDonald  Brigade  is  part 
of  that  effort. 

We  stand  for  Democracy  in  Nicaragua  and  your  assistance 
stands  as  a  shining  example  of  Americans  who  have  sacrificed 
to  hel p  us  . 

God  bless  you  and  we  remain  your  constant  admirers. 

Si  ncerely , 

Adolfo   Calero 


,  Declassified/Released  on  tPrCP  ^ ^ 
under  provisions  of  EO  12356 
by  K  Johnson,  National  Security  Council 


BNtiissro 


471 


STENOGRAPHIC  BONimSS 
UnrcTlMd  mnd  Unedited 
Not  for  Quotation  or 
DapUcatloa 


gmamTB  aveioi 


"■^ 


■UUUVifl  8K8I0B 

Committee  HearingB 
U.S.  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 


W 


.    .V    ^    ^VVXVCW**'    OFFICE  OF  THE  CLERK 
■■'y.-.i^\  '^«i^J*  Oence  of  Official  Bepoitcn 


fUKUTiyi  SB8X01 


472 


DINKEL/mas 


,\J 


EXECUTIVE  SESSION 


JOINT  HEARINGS  ON  THE 
IRAN-CONTRA  INVESTIGATION 

Testimony  of  Oliver  L.  North 

Wednesday,  July  1,  1987 


House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 

and 

Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military 
Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition 

Washington,  D.C. 


473 


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18 
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24 
25 


The  select  committees  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at 
5:10  p.m.,  in  Room  B-352,  Rayburn  House  Office  Building, 
Hon.  Dick  Cheney  (on  behalf  of  the  House  Select  Committee) 
and  Hon.  Daniel  K.  Inouye  (chairman  of  the  Senate  Select 
Committee)  presiding. 


474 


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UNCLASSIHED 


""^Chairman  Inouye.   The  Senate  Conmittee  will  please 
come  to  order. 

In  accordance  with  Committee  Rule  2.1  I  will  entertain 
a  motion  this  hearing  be  closed  to  the  public. 

Mr.  Rudman.   Pursuant  to  Committee  Rule  2.2,  I  move  the 
committee  hearing  be  closed  because  the  matters  to  be 
discussed  include  matters  of  national  security. 

Chairman  Inouye.   I  have  the  following  proxies  which 
will  become  part  of  the  record:   Senator  Sarbanes,  Heflin, 
Boren,  Nunn,  and  my  vote  is  also  aye. 

Mr.  Rudman.   I  also  have  proxies  from  the  following 
Members:   Senator  Hatch,  Cohen,  and  Senator  McClure.   I 
also  vote  aye. 

Chairman  Inouye.   Senator  Mitchell? 

Mr.  Mitchell.   Aye. 

Chairman  Inouye.   Senator  Trible. 

Mr.  Trible.   Aye. 

Chairman  Inouye.   The  vote  is  unanimous  in  favor  of 
closing  this  hearing. 

Mr.  Sullivan.   Mr.  Chairman,  I  might  record  as  well  for 
the  limited  purpose  of  this  hearing,  we  have  no  objection 
to  it  being  in  executive  session.   As  explained  yesterday, 
our  request  to  maintain  open  hearings  still  stands  based 
upon  our  earlier  letter.   But  for  the  purposes  of  today's 
session,  we  agree  to  have  it  closed.  5  if  , ,  ;  *'  ;-■  ^-    -   •,'     !■' 

%l^.  :■«;•. '..-J  iV':y-il  ^ ''''"■ 


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-.,1  ■■•'■-=  ^i 


Chairman  Inouye.   I  have  another  matter  to  bring  up 
while  we  are  waiting. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Cheney.   Mr.  Chairman,  I  move  in  light  of  the 
sensitive  nature  of  the  material  to  be  discussed,  that  we 
meet  in  executive  session. 

Mr.  Jenkins.   Without  objection  from  our  side,  we 
have  sufficient  proxies,  I  think. 

Chairman  Inouye.   Now  you  are  in  executive  session, 
the  Senate  and  the  House. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Cheney.   The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

For  the  sake  of  establishing  a  clear  record  — 
we  lack  a  Member  on  this  side.   Without  a  quorum,  we  can't 
proceed.   Will  somebody  check  and  make  sure  Mr.  Jenkins 
is  on  his  way  back? 

Mr.  Jenkins  is  now  present.   Still  off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Cheney.   Back  on  the  record. 

Colonel  North,  would  you  stand? 

(The  witness  was  sworn  by  Mr.  Cheney.) 

Mr.  Cheney.   Thank  you. 

The  Chair  recognizes  the  counsel  for  the  House  Select 
Comjnittee,  Mr.  Nields. 
l-iiTt'^Mr.  Sullivan.   Excuse  me.   I  think  it  would  be  appropriat' 


476 


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to^KSve  the  Senate  swear  him  as  well. 

Mr.  Cheney.   We  have  only  done  it  once  for  every 
witness . 

Mr.  Sullivan.   Would  you  mind  doing  it? 

(The  witness  was  sworn  by  Chairman  Inouye.) 

Chairman  Inouye.   Thank  you. 

Mr.  Chairman.   The  Chair  recognizes  Mr.  Nields. 

Mr.  Nields.   Colonel  North,  this  is  a  joint  hearing 
of  the  House  and  Senate  Select  Committees  on  Iran.   The 
subject  of  the  question  today  —  which  is  being  conducted 
in  executive  session  —  is  —  the  subject  is  the  knowledge, 
if  any,  of  the  President  on  the  subject  of  the  use  of  the 
proceeds  of  arms  sales  to  Iran  for  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance. 

I  would  ask  you  at  the  outset  whether  you  have  any 
information  on  that  subject? 

Mr.  North.   Mr.  Nields,  I  respectfully  decline  to  answer 
that  question  based  on  my  Fifth  Amendment  rights  against 
self-incrimination. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Colonel  North,  I  hereby  communicate  to 
you  an  order  issued  by  the  United  States  District  Court  for 
the  District  of  Columbia  at  the  request  of  the  House 
Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions 
with  Iran,  providing  that  you  may  not  refuse  to  provide 
any  evidence  to  this  committee  on  the  basis  of  your 
priyijLege  against  self-incrimination  and  providing  further 

I  V.  ii 


477 


I  -i  A  U 


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,  ^^^ 


#OLk^^«® 


thaJtno  evidence  or  other  information  obtained  under  the 
order  or  any  information  directly  or  indirectly  derived 
from  such  evidence  may  be  used  against  you  in  any  criminal 

proceeding. 

Chairman  Inouye.   We  are  hereby  communicating  to  you 
a   similar  order  obtained  by  the  Senate  Select  Committee; 
and  on  behalf  of  this  committee,  we  join  in  the  direction 

to  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Colonel  North,  I  therefore  direct  you  to 
answer  the  questions  put  to  you. 

Mr.  Sullivan.   One  clarification  for  the  record  so 
that  it  is  clear.   We  have  requested  that  all  proceedings 
be  open.   We  are  agreeable  to  this  short  executive  session 
being  closed  but  do  not  waive  our  future  rights. 

Secondly,  the  Colonel  is  here  pursuant  to  the 
compulsion  of  subpoena. 
Thank  you. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Mr.  Nields? 

Mr.  Nields.   For  the  sake  of  convenience  only,  I 
will  be  referring  to  the  use  of  the  proceeds  of  arms  sales 
to  Iran  for  the  support  of  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance  as 
the  diversion  or  a  diversion.   Is  that  understood? 
Mr.  North.   Yes,  it  is. 

Mr.  Nields.   DO  you  have  any  information  with  respect 
^.ii^e  president's  knowledge  of  the  diversion;  and  I'm 


mM 


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'a  ^i  ^^ 
•>ji  .\  -*•* 


BHtmsw 


referring  now  to  his  knowledge  prior  to  November  24,  1986? 

Mr.  North.   Yes.   I  never  personally  discussed  use  of 
the  residuals  or  profits  from  sale  of  weapons  to  Iran  and 
the  assistance  therefor  derived  for  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance 
with  the  President.   I  never  raised  it  with  him  and  he 
never  raised  it  with  me  during  my  tenure  at  the  National 
Security  Council  staff. 

Throughout,  I  assumed  that  he  knew.   1  sought  approval 
by  presenting  these  proposals  to  Admiral  Poindex'ter;  and 
he  subsequently  authorized  me  to  proceed.   I  assumed  that 
Admiral  Poindexter  had  solicited  and  obtained  the  President's 
approval  for  those  actions. 

To  my  recollection,  Admiral  Poindexter  never  told  me 
that  he  met  with  the  President  on  this  specific  issue 
or  that  he  had  discussed  the  use  of  residuals  or  profits 
for  use  by  the  contras  or  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance  with  the 
President  or  that  he  got  the  President's  specific  approval 
for  these  activities;  but  throughout,  I  assumed  that  all 
these  things  had  occurred. 

No  other  person  ever  told  me  that  he  or  she  ever 
discussed  the  use  of  the  residuals  or  profits  from  the  sale 
of  these  arms  to  the  use  of  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance  or 
their  support  with  the  President. 

In  late  November  1986,  two  other  things  occurred  which 
relate  to  this  issue.   On  or  about  Friday,  November  21st, 


I 


479 


*msW 


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25 


I  "asked  Admiral  Poindexter  pointedly,  "Does  the  President 
know?" 

And  he  told  me,  "No,  he  did  not." 

And  on  November  25th,  after  I  had  left  the  White  House 
and  been  reassigned  to  the  Marine  Corps,  a  telephone  call 
from  the  President.   In  the  course  of  that  telephone 
call,  the  President  said  to  me,  "I  just  didn't  know,"  or 
words  to  that  effect.   Those  are  the  facts  as  I  know  them 
or  as  relayed  by  others  to  me  on  this  issue. 

There  is  one  other  matter  which  I  would  raise  or 
should  raise  by  way  of  clarification.   After  a  meeting  in 
the  summer  of  1986,  at  which  we  discussed  the  $100  million 
authorized  and  appropriated  by  the  Congress  but  not  yet 
forwarded  to  the  President,  and  therefore  not  yet 
available  to  the  Resistance,  on  leaving  a  meeting  at  which 
the  President  had  been  present,  I  said  to  Admiral  Poindexter, 
"It  looks,"  —  words  to  the  effect  that  "It  looks  like 
the  Ayatollah  will  have  to  help  the  Resistance  in 
Nicaragua  a  little  bit  longer,"  or  words  to  that  effect. 

I  do  not  believe  that  the  President  overheard  that 
comment.  It  was  not  intended  for  him.  It  was  intended 
for  Admiral  Poindexter. 

Those,  sir,  are  the  facts  as  I  know  them. 

Mr.  Nields.   I  have  a  few  specific  follow-up  questions. 
Colonel  North. 


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25 


BNtussro 


"""You  testified  about  a  conversation  with  the  President 
on  November  25th  in  which  he  said,  "I  just  didn't  know." 
Was  the  diversion  mentioned  during  that  conversation? 

Mr.  North.   The  word  "diversion"  was  not  mentioned. 
I  assumed  from  the  conversation  that  the  President  was 
referring  specifically  to  the  fact  that  he  did  not  know 
about  the  fact  that  funds  generated  as  a  consequence  of  the 
sale  of  arms  materiel  to  Iran  had  been  used  to  support  the 
Nicaraguan  Resistance. 

Mr.  Nields.  But  I  take  it  from  your  testimony  that  that 
was  an  assumption;  that  subject  matter  was  never  specifically 
discussed  by  either  of  you  during  the  conversation? 

Mr.  North.   The  specific  subject  was  not  discussed, 
Mr,  Nields,  but  the  whole  conversation  dealt  with  my 
departure  from  the  NSC.   And  the  case  thereof. 

Mr.  Nields.   Just  so  we  are  clear,  did  either  the 
President  or  you  make  any  reference  during  the  conversation 
to  the  use  of  the  proceeds  of  the  arms  sales  for  the 
Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

Mr.  North.   No. 

Mr.  Nields.   But  you  understood  in  the  context  of  the 
situation  that  the  words  "I  just  didn't  know"  referred 
to  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   It  was  very  clear  to  me  that  what  the 
President  was  referring  to  was  the  fact  that  I  — 

i 


■jr,jM,*Vit^?if|fiJ; 


481 


IINCUSSIFIED 


10 


Admiral  Poindexter  and  I  had  left  or  been  relieved,  reassigned 

as  a  consequence  of  the  fact  that  he  did  not  know  about 

the  use  of  those  funds  to  support  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance, 

Mr.  Nields.   Other  than  that  coversation,  did  you  ever 
personally  discuss  the  diversion  with  the  President? 

Mr.  North.   I  did  not. 


6 

Mr.  Nields.   Were  you  ever  present  when  that  subject 

was  discussed  with  the  President? 


Mr.  North.   I  was  not,  aside  from  that  one  conversation 
I  had  with  the  President  on  the  25th. 

Mr.  Nields.   Has  anyone  ever  told  you  that  the 
President  was  aware  of  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   No. 

Mr.  Nields.   Have  you  ever  discussed  the  subject  of  the 
President's  awareness  of  the  diversion  with  anyone? 

Mr.  North.   I  have  discussed  it  with  Attorney  General 
Meese. 

Mr.  Nields.   When  was  that? 

Mr.  North.   On  the  23rd  of  November,  1986. 

Mr.  Nields.   Prior  to  that  date  had  you  ever  discussed 
that  subject  with  Attorney  General  Meese? 

Mr.  North.   I  had  not. 

Mr.  Nields.   Anyone  else? 

Mr.  North.   Obviously  Admiral  Poindexter. 

Mr.  Nields.   That  was  on  November  the  21st? 


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11 


Mr.  North.   Yes,  and  perhaps  for  a  period  of  time 
thereafter  before  I  — 

Mr.  Nields.   Had  you  ever  discussed  the  subject  of  the 
President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  Admiral 
Poindexter  prior  to  November  21st? 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  discuss  that  subject  with  anyone 
else? 

Mr.  North.   At  any  point  in  time? 

Mr.  Nields.   Let's  limit  it  to  prior  to  November  24th, 
1986. 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  ever  create  any  documents  that 
may  -- 

Mr.  North.   If  I  may,  let  me,  just  to  clarify.   You 
just  said  ever  prior  to  November  24th.   There  was  the  issue 
of  a  discussion  I  had  with  General  Secord  in  which  I 
related  to  him  that  I  had  joked  about  it  with  the  President. 
But  I  have  already  discussed  that. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  tell  General  Secord  that  you  had 
joked  about  the  Ayatollah  funding  the  contras  with  the 
President? 

Mr.  North.   Again  I  may  have  joked  with  him.   I  don't 
deny  that.   I  am   simply  saying  I  don't  recall  that  discussion 
with  him,  but  I  may  well  have  joked  with  him  about  that 


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UNCUSSIRED 


12 


aspect  of  it,  yes, 

Mr.  Nields.   Why  would  you  joke  with  General  Secord 
or  why  would  you  tell  General  Secord  that  you  had  joked 
with  the  President  about  the  diversion  if  it  wasn't  true? 

Mr.  North.   To  keep  him  more  enthusiastically  engaged. 
He  was  tired,  frustrated.   To  keep  him  engaged  in  the 
activity. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  discuss  the  subject  of  the 
President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  anyone  else 
prior  to  November  24,  1986? 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  recall,  no. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  create  and  send  up  the  line,  so 
to  speak,  documents  which  made  reference  to  the  use  of  the 
proceeds  of  Iran  arms  sales  for  the  benefit  of  the 
Nicaraguan  Resistance? 

Mr.  North.   Yes,  I  did. 

Mr.  Nields.   On  how  many  occasions? 

Mr,  North,   My  recollection  is  that  it  would  have 
been  five,  perhaps  six  times. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  what  occasioned  your  writing  these 
documents  and  sending  them  up  the  line? 

Mr.  North.   Each  time  we  had  a  proposal  for  transaction 
from  the  Iranians,  as  a  consequence  of  our  meetings  with 
them,  I  would  prepare  a  description  of  how  the  transaction 
would  take  place,  the  consequences  of  it,  and  send  those 


484 


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WIKSSW 


13 


menios  up  to  Admiral  Poindexter. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  did  these  memos  seek  the  President's 
approval? 

Mr.  North.   My  recollection  is  that  the  memo  would 
have  had  an  approval,  disapproval  recommendation  line  on 
it  asking  for  —  that  the  President  approve  this  activity, 
words  to  that  effect. 

Mr.  Nields.   This  would  be  a  line  where  one  could 
either  check  approve,  or  disapprove? 

Mr.  North.   Admiral  Poindexter  could  indicate  approve 
or  disapprove.   That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nields.   That  is  approved  or  disapproved  by  the 
President? 

Mr.  North.   No.   I  want  to  be  specific.   For  exeunple, 
the  line  —  the  recommendation  line  might  read  that  you 
discuss  the  activity  proposed  above  with  the  President  and 
seek  his  approval.   Then  below  that  there  would  be 
approve,  disapprove,  two  spaces  for  an  initial  or  a  check. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  those  memoranda  —  I  take  it  you  sent 
those  up  the  line,  so  to  speak,  to  Admiral  Poindexter. 

Mr.  North.   It  is  my  recollection  that  I  did,  yes. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  did  they  come  back? 

Mr.  North.   I  cannot  recall  specifically  that  those 
memoranda  came  back  to  me  directly;  but  that  would  not 
have  been  unusual  under  those  circumstances,  that  this  is 


485 


wussw 


14 


a  --"was  a  very  sensitive,  very  closely  compartjnented 
activity,  but  I  always  got  an  approval  from  the  Admiral  either 
verbally  or  otherwise,  proceed  before  the  transaction  took 

place. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  I  take  it  three  of  these  transactions 

did  take  place? 

Mr.  North.   That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nields.   And  you  received  approvals  before  they 

went  forward? 

Mr.  North.   Ves,  I  did. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  any  of  these  memos  come  back? 
Mr.  North.   Again,  I  do  not  recall  specifically  seeing 
the  memos  come  back  to  me  with  the  boxes  checked  or  initialed 

by  the  Admiral. 

Mr.  Nields.   What  is  your  best  recollection  on  that 

subject? 

Mr.  North.   I  simply  don't  recall.   They  may  well  have. 

It  is  entirely  possible  that  they  didn't. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  ever  see  any  other  documents 
either  created  by  you  or  some  other  person  that  made 
reference  to  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   There  were  documents  at  the  Central 
intelligence  Agency,  prepared  by  officers  of  the  Central 
Intelligence  Agency. 

can  I  ask  a  question,  if  I  may?  ^•V^-;^-:-      \'i^'^:--X^L  ■ 


486 


ONCLASSra 


15 


Mr,  Cheney.   Colonel,  if  I  may,  at  this  point  anything 
that  is  classified,  discussed  in  this  setting  would  be 
deleted  before  there  would  ever  be  a  release  of  the 
transcript. 

Mr.  North.   I  was  concerned  about  the  names. 

There  were  memos  prepared  at  the  Central  Intelligence 
Agency  beginning  in  the  late  summer,  early  fall  which 
related  to  information  obtained  by  the  Central  Intelligence 
Agency  reflecting  that  monies  raised  as  a  consequence  of 
these  arms  transactions  were  indeed  being  used  to  support 
the  Nicaraguan  Resistance. 

Mr.  Nields.   Do  you  have  any  reason  or  do  you  have  any 
knowledge  or  information  on  the  subject  whether  those 
memoranda  or  any  of  those  writings  ever  were  brought  to 
the  attention  of  the  President? 

Mr.  North.   I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  —  are  there  any  other  documents 
of  which  you  are  aware  that  made  reference  or  made 
reference  to  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Nields.  Did  you  ever  discuss  the  subject  of  the 
President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  Director  Casey? 

Mr.  North.   I  do  not  recall  addressing  that  issue 
with  the  Director,  no. 
,e        Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  ever  discuss  the  subject  of  the 


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25 


DNCLHSSIflED 


16 


President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  Mr.  McFarlane? 

Mr.  North.   Not  before  the  --  my  recollection  is  that 
the  issue  of  the  residuals  or  profits  being  used  to 
support  the  Nicaraguan  Resistance  as  a  subject  was 
discussed  with  Mr.  McFarlane  during  May  of  1986.   At  that 
time,  we  did  not  raise  the  issue  —  neither  of  us  raised 
the  issue  of  whether  or  not  the  President  had  approved  it. 
I  believe  that  subsequent  to  my  discussion  with  the  Attorney 
General  on  the  23rd  of  November,  I  talked  to  Mr.  McFarlane, 
as  I  did  to  Admiral  Poindexter,  and  told  them  what  I  had 
told  the  Attorney  General .   And  part  of  what  I  told  them 
was  that  the  Attorney  General  had  asked  me  about  the 
President's  knowledge  and  I  told  them  that  I  told  him  I 
had  no  idea  whether  or  not  the  President  knew  about  it. 
That  he  didn't  know  about  it  from  me. 

Mr.  Nields.  Did  you  have  any  other  discussions  with 
Mr.  McFarlane  on  the  subject  of  the  President's  knowledge 
of  the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  have  any  conversations  with 
Mr.  Regan  on  the  subject  of  the  President's  knowledge  of 
the  diversion? 

Mr.  North.   No. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  have  any  discussions  with  Paul 
Thompson  on  the  subject  of  the  President's  knowledge  of  the 

■■■■■■:   ,:  A" ': ^^.j^^lH 


488 


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24 

f. .    .T  C  '. 


UNCussra 


17 


di^Srsion? 

Mr.  North.   I  don't  believe  I  did,  but  it  is  entirely 
possible  that  Mr.  Thompson,  Commander  Thompson,  excuse 
me,  was  present  during  one  of  the  discussions  I  had  with 
the  Admiral  on,  for  example,  the  21st  or  the  24th,  the 
day  before  I  departed  the  NSC . 

Mr.  Nields.   Prior  to  the  21st  of  November,  1986,  did 
you  ever  discuss  the  subject  of  the  President's  knowledge 
of  the  diversion  with  Mr.  Thompson? 

Mr.  North.   I  don't  believe  I  did,  no. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  ever  discuss  the  subject  of  the 
President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  with  Mr.  Earl  or 
anyone  else  on  your  staff? 

Mr.  North.   My  sense  is  that  I  probably  did  on  the  day 
that  I  departed  the  NSC  and  I've  had  my  memory  refreshed  on 
a  discussion  which  I  had  with  him  then  related  to  the 
telephone  call,  but  I  don't  recall  any   other  discussions 
with  Lt.  Colonel  Earl  or  Commander  Coy  or  Ms.  Hall  or 
Ms.  Browne  on  that  issue. 

Mr.  Nields.   Would  you  describe  the  conversation  that 
you  now  do  recall  with  Mr.  Earl  on  that  subject? 

Mr.  North.   Well  —  and  again  my  recollection  is  still 
very  hazy  on  it  but  I  have  been  refreshed  that  I  told 
Commander  —  Lt.  Colonel  Earl  that  the  President  had  called 

me,  related  the  conversation  as  it  had  occurred,  and  told 

-id   -::•  ■•- 


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UHCUSSIFIED 


Corohel  Earl  what  the  President  said.   "I  just  didn't  know,' 
or  words  to  that  effect. 

Mr.  Nields.   Did  you  have  any  conversations  on  the 
subject  of  the  President's  knowledge  of  the  diversion  prior 
to  November  24,  1986  with  anyone  else? 

Mr.  North.   Well,  Admiral  Poindexter,  but  aside  from 
that  — 

Mr.  Nields.   Yes.   We  have  covered  Admiral  Poindexter. 
We  have  covered  Attorney  General  Meese. 

Mr.  North.   Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Nields.   No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Mr.  Liman? 

Mr.  Liman.   No  questions.   Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Mr.  Van  Cleve? 

Mr.  Van  Cleve.   No  questions.   Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Senator  Inouye? 

Chairman  Inouye.   You  better  get  the  designated 
questioners. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Any  further  questions  from  any  member  of 
the  panel? 

Mr.  Mitchell.   No  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Rudman.   No  questions  here,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Trible.   No  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Cheney.   Then  the  session  is  completed.   The 
committee  stands  adjourned.     ^''.-    •   '  , '  «'5.v"„  v;""    ;; 


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The  connnittee  will  reconvene  at  9  a.m.  on  July  7, 
Russell  Senate  Office  Building,  to  take  public  testimony 
from  Colonel  North.   He  is  instructed  to  return  at  that 
time. 

Mr.  North.   Yes,  sir. 

(Whereupon,  at  6:45  p.m.,  the  select  committees 
adjourned,  to  reconvene  at  9:00  a.m.,  on  Tuesday,  July  7, 
1987.) 


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UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  WILLIAM  B.  O'BOYLE 

Washington,  D.C. 
Friday,  May  8,  1987 
Deposition  of  WILLIAM  B.  O'BOYLE,  called  for 
examination  pursuant  to  subpoena,  at  the  Hart  Senate  Office 
Building,  Suite  901,  at  10:30  a.m.,  before  Michael  G. 
Paulus,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  the  District  of 
Columbia,  when  were  present  on  behalf  of  the  respective 
parties: 

THOMAS  FRYMAN,  ESQ. 
Assistant  Majority  Counsel 
KENNETH  R.  BUCK,  ESQ. 
Assistant  Minority  Counsel 
United  States  House  of  Representatives 
Select  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 


-  continued 


^. 


'^^    -'^/ 


ICLASSIFIED 


H.'' 


provMoiu  of  E.O.  12356 
||Wm»,  National  Security  CoundlACE-FEDERAL  REPORTERS.  InC 


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UNCUSSIFIED 


JAMES  KAPLAN,  ESQ. 

Associate  Counsel 

United  States  Senate  Select 
Committee  on  Iran  and  the 
Nicaraguan  Opposition 

BERT  HAMMOND 

On  behalf  of  the  witness: 

GUSTAVE  H.  NEWMAN,  ESQ. 

DEBORAH  A.  SCHWARTZ,  ESQ. 

Gustave  H.  Newman,  P.O. 

641  Lexington  Avenue 

19th  Floor 

New  York,  New  York  10022 


ONCUSSiFlEO 


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CONTENT 

s 

2 

WITNESS 

EXAMINATION 

3 

Will iam 

B.    O'Boyle 

4 

By  Mr. 

Fryman 

4 

5 

By   Mr. 

Kaplan 

87 

6 

By    Mr. 

Buck 

93 

7 

EXHIBIT 

s 

8     j 

O'Boyle 

Deposition 

IDENTIFIED 

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PROCEEDINGS 
Whereupon, 

WILLIAM  B.  O'BOYLE 
was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0   ,   Would  you  state  your  name  for  the  record, 
please? 

A     My  name  is  William  Buchanan  O'Boyle. 
0     Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  O'Boyle? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  New       New 
0     How  long  have  you  lived  in  New  York? 
A     I  have  lived  in  New  York  since  late  1969. 
Q     Where  did  you  obtain  a  college  degree? 
A     Stanford  University. 
0     In  what  year? 
A     1968. 

0     Did  you  attend  any  graduate  school? 
A     Yes. 
0     Where? 
A 


I  attended  New  York  University  and  Columbia 

under  provisions  of  E.O.  1Z356     Ul  fllLnill  11111    1 1 
by  D.  Sirh|D.  National  Security  Council       k  ^Tr.*7f7fVriJ^rir.c     J^r- 


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.ikepaulus  1  '   University. 

2  '       0     What  fields  did  you  study  at  those  universities? 

3  I       A      Including  Stanford? 

4  I        0      Let's  start  with  the  graduate  schools. 
j 

5  i        A      I  studied  drama  performance  studies  at  New  York 

6  I   University,  business  at  Columbia  University.   I  am 

7  I   currently  studying  cinema  studies  at  the  New  York 

8  University. 

9  i       0     Did  you  obtain  a  degree  at  either  of  the 

10  universities  in  New  York? 

11  A     Yes.   A  master  of  arts  from  New  York  University 
1 
1 

12  and  a  master  of  science  from  Columbia  University. 

13  0     What  is  your  occupation  at  the  present  time? 

14  I       A     I  am  independently  wealthy  and  I  own  and  manage 

15  an  oil  and  gas  exploration  firm. 

16  !       0     And  you  manage  your  other  investments? 

17  A     Yes. 

18  0     Did  there  come  a  time  when  you  received  a 

19  solicitation  for  a  contribution  from  a  representative  of 

20  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty? 

21  A     I  was  contacted  by  the  National  Endowment.   I  am 

22  not  quite  sure  to  say  whether  I  received  a  solicitation  or 


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not. 

0     When  was  the  first  contact? 

A      It  was  in  late  March  of  1986. 

0     Who  contacted  you? 

A     It  was  Jane  McLaughlin. 

0     How  did  she  contact  you? 

A     By  telephone. 

0   _  Do  you  know  the  person  that  referred  her  to  you? 

A.     Yes. 

0     Who  was  that? 

A     His  name  is  Searcy  Ferguson. 

0     Who  is  Mr.  Ferguson? 

A     He  is  an  old  acquaintance,  friend  from  Dallas, 
Texas,  which  is  my  home  town. 

0     Did  you  know  in  advance  of  her  call  that  you 
would  be  receiving  a  contact  from  the  National  Endowment, 
or  as  it  is  often  referred  to,  NEPL? 

A     No. 

Q     Can  you  identify  the  date  when  this  first 
contact  occurred? 

A     My  appointment  book  is  currently  in  the  hands  of 
the  special  prosecutor's  office.   We  don't  have  copies 


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UNCUSSIFIED 


yet.   They  are  going  to  supply  us  copies.   But  I  can  tell 
you  approximately.   It  was  approximately  March  26th  to  28th 
of  1986. 

0     In  that  first  telephone  call  what  did 
Ms.  McLaughlin  say  to  you? 

A     She  told  me  that  she  had  gotten  my  name  from 
Mr.  Ferguson  in  Texas.   She  asked  me  if  I  would  like  to 
come  down  to  the  White  House  for  a  briefing  on  the 
political  and  military  situation  in  Nicaragua.   That's  it. 

Q     Did  she  ask  for  a  contribution  in  this  first 
telephone  call? 

A     I  don't  think  so.   No. 

0     Did  she  say  anything  about  the  fund-raising 
efforts  of  her  organization? 

A     I  believe  she  described  her  organization  as  an 
organization  which  supported  the  contras.   I  understood  at 
that  time  that  the  organization  did  raise  money. 
What  was  your  question  again,  please? 

0     Did  she  say  anything  about  the  fund-raising 
efforts  of  the  organization? 

A     I  don't  recall  specifically. 

0     Had  you  heard  of  the  organization  before  this 


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A  No. 

Q  What  did  you  say  in  response  to  Ms.  McLaughlin's 
comments? 

A  When  she  invited  me  to  come  down  to  the  White 


6   I  House,  I  was  interested. 


0     Did  you  say  you  would  come? 
A     Yes. 

0     Did  you  express  any  views  in  this  conversation 
about  the  situation  in  Nicaragua? 

A     I  don't  remember  specifically. 

0     At  that  time,  in  March  of  1986,  what  were  your 

13  j  views  with  respect  to  Nicaragua? 

14  A     I  was  alarmed  at  the  fact  that  the  communists 
had  gained  a  foothold  in  Central  America,  on  the  South 
American  continent. 

0     Did  you  favor  an  active  military  response  to  the 
communist  foothold  that  you  saw  there? 

A     By  the  United  States,  do  you  mean? 

0     Let's  say  by  the  resistance  in  Nicaragua.   Did 
you  favor  an  active  military  response  by  the  resistance 


22 


within  the  country? 


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Yes. 


Did  you  favor  United  States  support  for  that? 
Yes. 

Including  support  of  military  equipment? 
Yes. 

Did  you  receive  any  written  invitation  to  this 
meeting  at  the  White  House? 
A     No. 

0.     So  the  only  invitation  was  the  oral  invitation 
to  come  down  the  day  after  the  telephone  call? 
A     Yes. 

0     What  arrangements  did  she  make  after  you  arrived 
in  Washington?  Where  were  you  to  go?  What  did  she  tell 
you  in  the  phone  call? 

A     As  I  recall,  she  arranged  to  meet  me  at  the 
airport.   I  think  she  also  asked  for  my  social  security 
number  for  clearance  into  the  White  House  area. 
0     Which  airport  did  you  fly  into? 
A     As  I  recall,  it  was  National.   I  came  down  on 
the  shuttle. 

0     She  met  your  plane? 
A     Yes. 


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0     You  had  not  met  her  before;  is  that  correct? 

A     That's  correct. 

0     How  did  you  recognize  her? 

A     I  think  she  told  me  what  she  would  be  wearing. 
She  described  herself  and  told  me  what  she  would  be 
wearing. 

0     How  did  you  travel  into  Washington  from  the 
airport? 

A.     There  was  a  limousine  that  she  arrived  in  and 
brought  me  back  into  Washington. 

0     The  two  of  you  went  into  Washington  in  the 
limousine? 

A     Yes. 

0     Where  did  you  first  go  in  Washington? 

A     To  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel. 

0     Was  this  in  the  morning  or  the  afternoon? 

A     In  the  afternoon. 

0     What  happened  after  you  went  to  the  Hay-Adams 
Hotel? 

A     As  I  recall,  there  were  a  number  of  people  from 
NEPL  and  a  few  other  potential  contributors  there  at  the 
hotel,  and  we  rendezvoused  there  at  the  hotel. 


Ar-c^cncDai     P  £.■.,">'  i  l^RC     iNr 


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0     Were  you  in  a  meeting  room  at  the  hotel? 

A     If  I  recall,  it  was  upstairs.   There  is  a  kind 
of  private  dining  area  on  the  mezzanine  level. 

0     Who  do  you  recall  was  there  from  NEPL? 

A     I  believe  Mr.  Channell  was  there.   Of  course 
Ms.  McLaughlin  was  there.   I 'don't  recall  any  other 
specific  person  that  was  there. 

0     Was  Mr.  Conrad  there? 

A.     I  don't  remember. 

0     Was  Mr.  Littledale  there? 

A     Possibly. 

0     Do  you  know  Mr.  Littledale? 

A     I  have  his  name  noted  in  my  appointment  book, 
but  I  can't  place  the  face.   I  did  meet  a  Mr.  Littledale. 

0     Was  Mr.  Smith  there? 

A     I  don't  know. 

0     Were  there  any  representatives  of  International 
Business  Communications  there? 

A     Yes. 

0     Which  representatives? 

A     I  think  it  was  Mr.  Littledale.   There  was 
another  name  which  I  had  noted  down  in  the  appointment  book 


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;  which  is  now  in  the  hands  of  the  special  prosecutor. 

i 

!       0     Was  Mr.  Miller  there? 

A     I  don't  think  so.   Not  at  that  time. 
;       0     Did  you  believe  Mr.  Littledale  was  an  IBC 
I  employee  or  a  NEPL  employee? 

A     As  I  recall,  there  were  a  couple  of  people  from 
IBC  there.   I  don't  know  what  IBC  was  except  a  consulting 
group.   I  was  told  it  was  a  consulting  group.   Actually,  I 
believed  that  they  were  government  agents. 

Q     Have  you  ever  met  Mr.  Frank  Gomez? 

A     The  name  doesn't  ring  a  bell. 

0     Have  you  ever  met  David  Fischer? 

A     Not  to  my  knowledge. 

0     Have  you  ever  met  a  Jeffrey  Keffer? 

A     Not  to  my  knowledge. 

0     You  say  there  were  some  other  contributors  also 
present  in  the  private  meeting  room  at  the  Hay-Adams  that 
afternoon.   Which  contributors  were  there  that  you  recall? 

A     I  don't  recall  their  names.   There  were  one  or 
two  other  people  there  who  I  understood  were  to  attend  the 
briefing,  but  I  don't  recall  their  names. 

0     What  was  the  totals^zej^^^^  group  in  the 


ras  the  total  s i ze^^^hg 

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2     I  A  It  was   approximately   half  a   dozen   to   ten 


3  ' 

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people.   Around  ten  people. 

0     How  long  did  the  group  remain  at  the  Hay-Adams 
in  the  meeting  room  that  afternoon? 

A     To  my  recollection,  it  was  about  half  an  hour. 
Not  very  long. 

0     Would  you  describe  this  as  a  get-acquainted 
session? 

A     Yes,  and  a  rendezvous  prior  to  going  over  to  the 
Old  Executive  Office  Building. 

0     Did  anyone  make  any  statement  or  speech  to  the 
group? 

A     No. 

0     How  were  you  introduced  to  Mr.  Channell? 

A     I  don't  recall  exactly.   He  was  there.   I  don't 
recall  exactly  what  was  said. 

0     Did  Ms.  McLaughlin  introduce  you  to 
Mr.  Channell? 

A     I  believe  so. 

0     Were  you  introduced  to  the  other  contributors? 


A     Yes. 


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0     I  believe  you  said  that  you  went  from  the 
Hay-Adams  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building. 
A     Yes. 

Did  you  walk  over  in  a  group? 

Yes. 

Did  Mr.  Channell  lead  the  group? 

Yes. 

what  happened  after  you  got  to  the  White  House 


0 

A 

0 

A 

Q 
grounds. 

A     I  am  taking  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building  to 
be  part  of  the  White  House. 

0     Yes. 

A     We  went  through  security  at  the  front  door,  and 
then  we  went  up  to  a  conference  room.   I  don't  recall  the 
room  number,  but  I  believe  it  was  upstairs  in  the  building. 

0     Approximately  what  time  did  you  arrive  there? 

A     It  was  about  five  or  six  in  the  evening. 

0     Did  all  of  the  group  that  was  at  the  Hay-Adams 
go  over  to  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building? 

A     Most  of  it  did.   I  wasn't  keeping  count. 

0     But  it  was  your  sense  that  basically  the  group 
transferred  from  the  Hay-Adams  to  the  OEOB? 


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A     Yes. 

0     What  happened  after  you  arrived  at  the  OEOB? 

A     We  waited  in  the  conference  room  for  a  short 
period  of  time  and  then  Lieutenant  Colonel  North  arrived. 

0     Was  anyone  with  him? 

A     Not  to  my  recollection,  although  he  was  assisted 
at  some  point  by  what  I  took  to  be  an  aide  who  brought  in 
some  materials  or  helped  him  with  the  slide  projector 
machine. 

0     Had  you  met  Colonel  North  before? 

A     No. 

0     Were  you  introduced  to  him  at  this  conference 
room? 

A     Yes. 

0     Was  he  introduced  to  all  of  the  participants? 

A     Let  me  withdraw  my  answer.   I  am  not  sure 
whether  we  were  introduced  or  not.   I  think  he  was 
introduced  to  us,  but  I  am  not  sure  if  we  were  introduced 
to  him.   I  don't  really  recall  that. 

0     Who  introduced  Colonel  North  to  the  group? 

A     I  believe  it  was  either  Mr.  Channell  or 


Ms.  McLaughlin. 


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I 
I 

.ikepaulus  1  ;       Q      Do  you  recall  what  was  said  in  this 

2  introduction? 

3  A     Not  specifically.   No. 

4  0     Can  you  give  me  a  general  sense  of  what  was 

5  j   said? 

6  A     This  was  Lieutenant  Colonel  Oliver  North  who  was 

7  I   with  the  National  Security  Council,  who  was  going  to  give 

8  j   us  a  presentation  on  the  political  and  military  situation 

9  t   in  Nicaragua. 

10  I       Q     Had  you  heard  of  Colonel  North  before  the 

11  I   meeting? 
I 

12  I       A     No.   Ms.  McLaughlin  may  have  mentioned  his  name 
I 

13  I   to  me  on  the  phone  when  she  invited  me  to  come  down.   I 

14  I   think  she  did,  but  I  had  never  met  him  and  I  didn't  know 

15  who  that  was. 

16  0     You  hadn't  read  his  name  in  the  press  before? 

17  A     No. 

18  0     You  weren't  familiar  with  his  name  prior  to  your 

19  conversation  with  Ms.  McLaughlin? 

20  A     That's  right. 

21  0     Approximately  how  long  was  the  introduction  of 
22 


Colonel  North? 


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10  01  01     1 

.ikepaulus  1         A     Only  a  few  seconds. 

I 

2  i       0     And  then  Colonel  North  spoke? 

3  '        A      Yes. 

4  j       0     Approximately  how  long  did  he  speak? 

5  j       A     About  half  an  hour  or  45  minutes. 
I 

6  j       0     Did  anyone  else  speak  other  than  Colonel  North 

7  I  at  this  meeting? 

8  !       A   ,  No. 

9  I       0     You  mentioned  an  aide  that  was  with  Colonel 

i 

10  j  North.   What  did  the  aide  do? 

11  I       A     As  I  recall,  there  was  some  problem  with  the 

12  slide  projecting  machine,  or  perhaps  he  had  brought  the 

13  1  wrong  slides.   I  can't  remember.   There  was  some  initial 

14  I  problem  in  getting  set  up.   As  I  recall,  he  telephoned  an 
1 

15  I  aide  who  came  up  and  assisted  him  in  setting  up  the 

i 

16  presentation.   The  aide  then  left. 

17  0     1  take  it  from  your  answer  that  a  part  of  his 

18  presentation  was  the  showing  of  slides. 

19  A     Yes. 

20  0     Would  you  describe  his  presentation  to  the 

21  group?  What  did  he  say?  What  sort  of  slides  did  he  show? 

22  A     The  basic  theme  of  his  presentation  was  the 


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16 

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19 

20 

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18 


Russian  influence  in  Nicaragua  and  the  fact  that  the 
Nicaraguan  government  was  really  an  arm  of  the  Russians  or 
an  arm  of  an  organized  communist  effort  to  gain  a  further 
foothold  on  the  American  continent. 

He  described,  for  example,  an  airfield  that  had 
been  built,  that  was  built  with  Eastern  Bloc  aid.   It  was 
disguised  as  a  civilian  airfield  but  was  in  fact  a  military 
airfield.   He  indicated  that  that  is  the  airfield  that  the 
Russians  would  use  to  recover  their  Backfire  bombers  in 
case  of  an  atomic  war  with  the  United  States;  given  that 
they  wouldn't  make  it  all  the  way  back  to  Russia,  they 
could  recover  their  bombers  in  Nicaragua. 

I  think  he  indicated  that  there  were  missions 
currently  being  flownout  of  Cuba,  Russian  missions  up  the 
East  Coast  of  the  United  States.   Some  kind  of  large 
Russian  aircraft  that  flies  just  outside  the  12-mile  limit 
every  day,  up  and  back.   There  was  some  kind  of  a  large 
device  on  the  outside.   Nobody  knows  what  is  inside  the 
device,  whether  it's  a  weapon  or  surveillance  equipment  of 
some  kind.   Our  jets  fly  right  along  with  it  and  back 
again.   He  said  this  airfield  would  allow  them  to  fly  the 
same  kind  of  missions  up  the  West  Coast  as  they  are  now 


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likepaul'JS  1 

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13  I 
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I 


19 


flying  up  the  East  Coast- 
He  indicated  that  there  was  a  massive  effort 
underway  to  enlarge  the  harbors  of  Nicaragua  and  that  this 
was  all  being  done  with  Eastern  Bloc  aid  of  one  kind  and 
another. 


He  showed  photographs  of  what  appeared  to  be 
cabinet  level  Nicaraguan  government  officials  involved  in 
dope  smuggling  operations.   He  indicated  that  the 
Nicaraguan  government  activities  were  to  some  extent 
financed  by  involvement  in  the  drug  trade. 

He  talked  about  the  refugee  problem  that  was 
beginning  to  be  experienced  by  the  neighboring  countries 
around  Nicaragua  and  described  the  potential  for  a  massive 
refugee  problem  as  the  communists  began  to  take  over  more 
and  more  in  Central  America;  how  typically  when  a  communist 
government  takes  over  somewhere  between  10  and  20  percent 


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10  01  01 

.iiikepaulus  1  '     of  the  population  leaves  the  country,  and  that  would  mean 

2  I   that  there  would  be  millions  and  millions  of  refugees 

3  i   coming  into  the  United  States  and  other  neighboring  Central 

4  I   American  countries  from  Nicaragua  and  other  nearby 

! 

5  I   countries  as  the  communists  took  over. 
j 

6  i  He  indicted  that  the  military  equipment  that  was 

7  I   being  supplied  to  the  Nicaraguans  by  the  Cubans  and  the 

8  {   Russians  and  the  various  other  people  who  were  supplying 

9  j   them  was  not  merely  defensive  equipment  but  was  offensive 

I 

10  in  nature,  was  the  kind  of  equipment  that  could  be  used  to 

11  expand  past  Nicaragua. 

12  I  I  forget  the  exact  details,  but  I  think  there 
I 

13  j   were  a  couple  of  covert  Nicaraguan  agents  who  were  caught 

14  I   in  a  nearby  country  who  were  disguised  as  Americans.   I 

15  think  they  had  drugs  in  their  car  and  they  were  on  their 

16  way  somewhere  on  a  secret  mission  for  the  Nicaraguan 

17  government;  that  they  had  American  identification  on  them; 

18  and  they  were  made  to  look  like  American  agents  but  they 

19  were  in  fact  Nicaraguan  agents. 

20  As  I  recall,  those  are  the  highlights  of  his 

21  presentation. 

22  Q  What  slides  did  he  show? 


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21 


A     The  one  I  remember  in  particular  was  the 
photograph  of  one  of  the  ministers  of  Nicaragua  involved  in 
the  dope  smuggling  operation  at  the  airport,  involved  with 
a  group  of  people  who  were  loading  drugs  on  an  airplane.   I 
don't  specifically  recall  other  slides.   There  were  a 
number  of  slides  and  maps  and  satellite  photographs. 

0     Did  he  talk  any  about  the  resistance  activities 
in  Nicaragua? 

A     Yes. 

0     What  did  he  say  about  that? 

A     I  don't  recall  the  specifics  of  what  he  said. 
The  substance  of  what  he  said  was  that  they  were  having  a 
difficult  time  because  of  the  intermittent  supply  of  funds 
from  the  United  States. 

0     Did  he  discuss  any  specific  needs  of  the 
resistance  fighters? 

A     I  think  he  described  some  hospital  needs.  As 
far  as  I  recall,  at  that  time  he  didn't  discuss  other 
needs.   As  I  recall,  at  that  time  he  also  described  the 
recent  arrival  in  Nicaragua  of  the  Soviet  HIND  helicopter 
gunships,  which  were  making  life  even  more  difficult  and 
dangerous  for  the  resistance  fighters. 


s.  Inc. 


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.ikepaulus    1 
2 

3  : 

I 
I 

4  I 

I 

5  i 

! 

6  I 

7  I 

i 

8  I 

I 

9 

10 

I 
11  i 

13  j 

14  I 
15 

16  i 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


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0      Did  he  comment  in  any  way  about  a  possible 
response  to  the  HIND  gunships? 

A     Not  at  that  time,  as  far  as  I  recall. 

Q     Were  there  any  questions  from  any  of  the 
contributors? 

A     Yes. 

0     What  questions  do  you  recall? 

A     I  don't  recall  what  the  questions  were. 

0     Did  anyone  ask  "how  can  we  help?"  in  substance? 

A     Not  at  that  time. 

Q     Most  of  Colonel  North's  comments  that  you  have 
described  concern  a  serious  problem  in  Nicaragua  and 
various  aspects  of  the  problem.   What  did  he  comment  in  the 
way  of  a  possible  solution  to  the  problem? 

A     As  I  recall,  there  was  some  talk  about  the 
congressional  vote  on  resuming  aid  to  the  contras.   As  far 
as  I  recall,  he  didn't  propose  a  solution  at  that  time. 

0     Did  Mr.  Channell  make  any  comments  either  during 
Colonel  North's  remarks  or  after  Colonel  North's  remarks 
while  you  were  in  the  conference  room? 

A     Not  that  I  recall. 

0     How  did  the  meeting  conclude? 


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2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

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9 

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13 

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A     After  a  brief  question  period  at  the  end  of  the 
presentation  Colonel  North  left  and  the  rest  of  us  left. 

0     Where  did  you  go? 

A     We  went  back  to  the  Hay-Adams. 

0     Approximately  what  time  was  it  at  this  point? 

A     I  don't  recall  exactly.   I'd  say  between  six  and 
seven  in  the  evening. 

Q     What  happened  after  you  got  back  to  the 
Hay-Adams? 

A     There  was  a  cocktail  party  for  this  group  that  _ 
had  been  to  the  presentation. 

Q     Did  anyone  else  attend  the  cocktail  party? 

A     I  recall  Mr.  Miller  was  there. 

0     Is  that  Richard  Miller? 

A     I  don't  recall  his  first  name.   The  one  who 
recently  pled  guilty  to,  I  think,  conspiracy  charges. 

0     That  is  the  Mr.  Miller  of  International  Business 
Communications,  or  IBC? 

A     Yes . 

Q     Was  the  first  time  you  believe  you  met 
Mr.  Miller  at  the  cocktail  party? 


I  th 


(^  yes 


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•10  01  01     i 
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2  , 

i 

3  i 

4  I 

5  i 

7  : 

8 

9  I 
i 

10  I 

12  i 

14 

I 

15  j 

I 

16  ! 

17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSSinED 


24 


0     Who  introduced  you  to  Mr.  Miller? 

A  I  don't  recall.  It  was  just  a  group  of  people 
and  everyone  was  being  introduced  to  everyone  else.  So  I 
don't  recall  exactly  how  I  was  introduced. 

0     Other  than  Mr.  Miller,  did  anyone  else  attend 
the  cocktail  party  who  had  not  been  at  the  briefing  or  the 
afternoon  meeting  at  the  Hay-Adams? 

A     I  seem  to  remember  a  woman  named  Angela  who 
worked,  for  NEPL. 

Q  Would  that  be  Angela  Davis? 

A     I  dsn't  know  her  last  name. 

There  may  have  been  one  or  two  other  people 
there.   I  don't  recall  specifically. 

Q     How  long  did  the  cocktail  party  continue? 

A     Half  an  hour.   Something  like  that.   Forty-five 
minutes . 

0     You  remember  Mr.  Miller  and  Angela  and  the  group 
that  had  been  there  in  the  afternoon. 

A     Yes. 

0     Anyone  else? 

A     In  my  notes  I  had  the  names  Cliff  Smith  and  Kris 
Littledale,  Spitz  Channell,  Dan  Conrad  written  down.   Those 


.  Inc 


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10  01  01 
.ikepaulus  1     were  all  people  that  I  met.   Again,  I  don't  specifically 

2  I   recall  whether  they  were  all  there  before  the  presentation 

3  '   and  after,  or  whether  maybe  some  had  come  after  and  hadn't 

4  I   been  there  before. 

i 

5  I        0      You  said,  in  your  notes.   Did  you  make 

6  j   contemporaneous  notes  of  the  meeting  that  you  attended  in 

7  Washington  in  March  1986? 

8  j        A     With  Colonel  North,  you  mean? 

9  !       0     Both  with  Colonel  North  and  the  meeting  at  the 

10  Hay-Adams.   You  indicated  your  notes  indicate  that  you  had 

11  met  Mr.  Conrad,  Mr.  Littledale,  and  so  forth. 

12  A     They  weren't  extensive  notes.   I  simply  noted 

13  I   the  names  of  a  couple  people  that  I  had  talked  to,  that  I 

14  wanted  to  remember  in  my  appointment  calendar.   I  didn't 
i 

15  [   make  an  outline  of  what  was  discussed  at  the  meeting  or 
i 

16  anything  like  that. 

17  0     Is  this  a  calendar  that  you  carry  in  your 

18  pocket? 

19  A     Yes. 

20  0     So  when  you  would  meet  people  you  would  note 

21  their  name  in  the  book? 

22  A     Yes.   If  I  wanted  to  remember  their  names,  I 


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•10  01  01 

likepaulus  1    would  note  them  down. 

2  I       0     That  is  the  book  that  you  have  given  to  the 

3  i   independent  counsel? 

4  A     Yes. 

5  0     And  you  don't  have  a  copy  of  that  now? 

6  I       A     Not  now. 

7  I       0     Did  Colonel  North  attend  the  cocktail  party? 

8  1        A      No. 

I 

9  I       0.    What  do  you  recall  were  the  subjects  that  were 

10  discussed  at  the  cocktail  party? 

11  I       A     Of  course  everyone  was  talking  in  one  way  or 
I 

12  i   another  about  the  presentation.   At  a  certain  point  during 
I 

13  I   the  cocktail  party  I  indicated  that  I  wished  that  there  was 

14  some  way  to  supply  arms  to  the  contras. 

15  0     To  whom  did  you  say  that? 

16  A     I  think  it  was  to  either  Cliff  Smith  or  Kris 

17  Littledale.  Without  seeing  a  picture,  I  couldn't  remember 

18  who  it  was  that  I  first  mentioned  it  to,  but  these  are  the 

19  names  that  I  have. 

20  0     Prior  to  this  cocktail  party,  Mr.  O'Boyle,  had 

21  you  given  any  indication  to  Ms.  McLaughlin  or  anyone  else 

22  in  NEPL  that  you  were  prepared  to  make  a  contribution? 


UNCussire 

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8r,io  01  01 

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2 

3 

4 

5  ! 
6 
7 

8  ! 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


wujsife 


27 


A      No. 

0      Did  you  indicate  during  the  cocktail  party  that 
you  were  prepared  to  make  a  contribution? 

A      Yes.   Let  me  rephrase  that.   I  didn't  commit 
myself  at  that  point,  but  I  indicated  that  I  was 
interested. 

0     What  did  you  say  and  to  whom  did  you  say  it? 

A      That  is  what  I  was  just  describing.   My 
indication  to  either  Mr.  Smith  or  Mr.  Littledale  was  that  I 
would  like  to  be  able  to  help  the  contras  by  supplying  arms 
of  some  kind,  and  I  asked  if  there  was  some  way  to  do  that. 

0     Did  you  mention  a  dollar  figure? 

A     A  dollar  figure  was  discussed  but  in  the  context 
of  a  specific  weapon. 

0     What  was  the  dollar  figure? 

A     $20,000. 

0     What  was  the  weapon? 

A     A  Blowpipe  antiaircraft  missile. 

0     Who  mentioned  this  type  of  weapon? 

A     It  was  the  person  that  I  brought  the  subject  up 
with.   In  other  words,  I  said  is  there  something  that  can 
be  done,  is  there  some  way  to  contribute.   I  don't  recall 


ce-Tederal  Reporters,  Inc. 


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'10  01  01 

i 
.ikepaulus  1  ■ 

2  ; 

3  ] 

i 

4  I 

I 
I 

5  : 

6  I 

7  I 

8  ' 

I 

9  I 

10  ] 

11  I 

12  I 

13  I 

14  i 

15 

i 
16  1 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


28 


the  exact  words,  but  I  indicated  a  willingness  to 
contribute  and  a  curiosity  as  to  how  much  was  needed  and 
how  much  these  different  kinds  of  weapons  cost,  and  I  got 
the  information  back  from  this  person  that,  for  example, 
for  $20,000  you  could  buy  a  Blowpipe  antiaircraft  missile. 
That's  the  general  trend  of  the  conversation. 

0     And  you  believe  that  was  with  Mr.  Smith  or 
Mr.  Littledale? 

A     I  think  so,  yes. 

0     Do  you  recall  prior  to  this  cocktail  party  a 
discussion  of  a  contribution  of  $10,000  to  NEPL? 

A     I  received  from  NEPL  at  some  point  their  package 
of  material.   I  don't  recall  when  it  was.   There  may  have 
been  sort  of  a  general  request  in  their  standard  mailing, 
you  might  say,  that  I  am  not  aware  of  at  this  particular 
time.   But  as  far  as  I  remember,  prior  to  this  discussion  I 
have  just  described  there  was  no  discussion  of  a  specific 
amount. 

As  we  are  talking  about  it  it  is  starting  to 
come  back  a  little  bit.   I  seem  to  remember  Ms.  McLaughlin 
saying  something  about  contributors  who  are  willing  to  give 
at  least  $10,000,  something  like  tha^  and  that  I  might 


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.ikepaulus  1   :  fall  into  that  category,  but  I  don't  recall  specifically 
2  I  when  that  was  said  or  exactly  what  was  said. 


3 

I 

4  i 

i 

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6  ' 

7  ' 
I 

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10 
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20 
21 
22 


Q     Your  telephone  conversation  with  Ms.  McLaughlin 
was  the  day  before  the  meeting;  is  that  right? 

A     Right. 

0     You  recall  there  was  at  least  some  discussion  of 
a  $10,000  contribution  in  that  telephone  conversation? 

A     I  remember  something  about  a  discussion  of  a 
$10,000  contribution.   It's  a  very  vague  recollection.   I 
don't  recall  exactly  when  it  was  said. 

0     But  it  was  a  conversation  with  Ms.  McLaughlin? 

A     Again,  this  is  a  hazy  recollection,  but  I  think 
so. 

0     And  it  could  have  been  in  the  telephone 
conversation? 

A     Yes. 

0     Or  it  could  have  been  in  your  meeting  with  her 
in  the  limousine? 

A     Yes.  As  I  recall,  and  this  is  very  indistinct, 
I  think  she  might  have  said  something  along  the  lines  that 
they  were  looking  for  people  who  could  give  at  least 
$10,000,  or  something  like  that.   It  wasn't  so  much  a 


mmm 


RS,  Inc. 


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•^10  01  01  ^'  '^  30 

..likepaulus  1  !  direct  pitch  for  a  specific  contribution;  it  was  more  that 

2  i  they  were  looking  for  a  general  category  of  contributors. 

3  0     Was  this,  then,  the  general  category  that  would 

4  be  invited  to  the  meetings  at  the  White  House? 

5  A      I  think  so.   But  again,  this  is  a  very  hazy 

I 

6  I  recollection  of  a  very  brief  discussion.   So  I'm  not  sure. 

i 

7  I       0     Other  than  your  discussion  at  the  cocktail  party 

8  with  Mr.  Smith  or  Mr.  Littledale  about  the  missile  with  a 
I 

9  I  price  of  $20,000,  did  you  have  any  other  discussions  during 

10  j  the  cocktail  party  with  respect  to  military  support  for  the 

I 

11  I  contras? 
I 

12  j       A     I  must  say,  honestly  I  don't  remember 
I 

13  specifically  during  the  cocktail  party.   The  general  theme, 

i 

14  I  can  say,  was  about  military  support  for  the  contras. 

15  Mainly  whether  Congress  was  going  to  approve  military 

16  support  for  the  contras.   So  that  was  being  talked  about. 

17  0     Did  you  talk  with  Mr.  Channell  during  the 

18  cocktail  party? 

19  A     Yes. 

20  0     What  did  Mr.  Channell  say  that  you  recall? 

21  A     Nothing  that  I  can  recall.   There  were  no 

22  substantive  conversations.   It  was  just  a  cocktail  party 


ceTederal  Reporters,  Inc. 


521 


o-lO  01  01 
..ikepaulus  1 
2 

3  I 
4 

5  j 

6 

7 

8 

9, 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

I 


UNCUSSIFIED 


31 


and  socializing. 

0      How  long  did  the  cocktail  party  continue? 

A      Half  an  hour  or  45  minutes. 

Q     What  happened  after  the  cocktail  party? 

A      I  had  not  originally  been  planning  to  stay  for 
the  evening.   I  was  going  to  go  back  to  New  York  after  this 
presentation.   I  think  it  was  during  the  cocktail  party 
that  Mr.  Channel  pressed  me  to  stay,  and  I  agreed  to  stay 
for  dinner,  which  was  following  the  cocktail  party,  and 
then  overnight  rather  than  rush  to  get  back  to  New  York 
that  evening.   Either  he  or  Jane  McLaughlin  indicated  that 
they  had  gone  ahead  and  made  reservations  for  me  right 
there  at  the  Hay-Adams. 

Q     Do  you  remember  if  this  urging  by  Mr.  Channell 
for  you  to  stay  for  dinner  and  overnight  occurred  after 
your  discussion  with  Mr.  Smith  or  Mr.  Littledale  about  the 
missile? 

A     I  don't  remember  if  it  was  before  or  after. 

0     Did  a  dinner  then  follow  the  cocktail  party? 

A     Yes. 

0     Where  was  that  held? 

A     Right  there  in  the  same  place. 


Ace-Federal  KEPORTERS.  Inc. 


522 


vnmim 


°T10    01    01 

..likepaulus  1  \ 

2     I 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


32 


0     Same  room? 

A     I  can't  remember  whether  it  was  exactly  the  same 
room  or  not,  but  it  was  right  there  in  the  Hay-Adams. 

Q     Were  there  a  number  of  small  tables  in  the  room, 
or  did  everyone  sit  at  one  table? 

A     There  were  a  number  of  small  tables. 

0     How  many  people  were  at  your  table? 

A     As  I  recall,  there  were  six,  including  myself. 
There  may  have  been  eight,  but  I  think  it  was  six. 


0 
A 
0 
A 
people 
0 
A 
0 


Do  you  recall  who  sat  next  to  you? 

Mr.  Miller  sat  next  to  me. 

Did  Mr.  Channell  sit  next  to  you? 

No.   I  don't  recall  the  names  of  the  other 


Did  Ms.  McLaughlin  sit  at  your  table? 

I  don't  think  so. 

How  would  you  describe  the  appearance  of 
Mr.  Miller,  his  height,  hair  color,  and  so  forth? 

A     He's  medium  height,  I  would  say,  between  5-10 
and  6  feet  tall,  blond  hair,  somewhat  strikingly  blond 
hair,  which  is  combed  back.   I  would  say  he  is  in  his  early 
30s,  medium  build,  neither  heavyset  nor  slim. 


<^'-rFDERAL  REPORTERS,  InC. 


523 


UNCUSSIFIED 


10  01  01 

likepaulus  1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

.7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


33 


0     During  the  dinner  or  after  the  dinner  did  anyone 
make  a  speech? 

A     Not  that  I  recall.   After  the  dinner  there  was  a 
presentation.   Not  exactly  a  speech. 

0     Who  made  that  and  what  was  it? 

A     There  were  television  commercials  that  were 
being  produced  by  NEPL  or  funded  by  NEPL,  and  they  were  in 
support  of  the  contras.   A  number  of  these  television 
commercials  were  shown  to  the  group. 

0     Did  Mr.  Channell  give  any  comments  on  the 
commercials? 

A     Someone  did.   I  don't  recall  whether  it  was 
Mr.  Channell  or  Mr.  Miller  or  someone  else  in  that  group. 
But  there  were  some  comments  that  were  made*, 

Q     What  were  the  comments? 

A     As  I  recall,  along  the  lines  of  urging  the 
people  present  to  fund  the  airing  of  these  commercials.   I 
remember  one  particularly  dramatic  fact  was  that  the 
photographer  who  took  some  of  the  footage  for  one  of  the 
commercials  had  been  killed  shortly  after  he  had  taken  the 
footage,  because  it  had  been  taken  inside  Nicaragua  and 
when  he  had  been  discovered  by  the  Nicaraguan  authorities 


.  Inc. 


524 


UNCUSSIFIED 


34 


-•lO  01  01 

.nikepaulus  1    he  had  been  killed. 

2  I       0     How  many  commercials  were  shown? 

3  1       A     I  think  it  was  three  or  four. 

4  j       Q     What  was  the  subject  matter  of  the  commercials 

5  I   that  you  saw? 

6  I       A     As  I  recall,  they  were  different  slants  on 

7  support  of  the  contras  in  one  respect  or  another. 

8  '       0     Were  you  told  the  purpose  of  the  commercials? 

9  1       A     To  drum  up  support  for  the  resumption  of  funding 

10  I   for  the  contras. 

I 

11  [       0     Was  this  to  be  support  in  Congress  for  the 

12  i   resumption  of  funding? 

13  I       A     Grass  roots  support  for  the  support  of  the 

I 

14  i   contras. 

15  I       0     Were  you  told  that  these  commercials  were  going 
! 

16  to  be  directed  to  any  particular  media  markets? 

17  A     I  don't  really  remember  if  that  was  discussed. 

18  Any  particular  places  that  they  were  to  be 

19  shown,  you  mean? 

20  Q     Yes. 

21  A     Not  that  I  remember. 

22  From  my  notes  here,  areas  of  legislators  who 


UNCmSSIHED 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


525 


'10  01  01 
likepaulus  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 

6  ! 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


IINCUSSIFIED 


35 


were  opposed  to  the  contras. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   Just  SO  the  record  is  clear,  they 
are  not  his  notes. 

THE  WITNESS:   My  counsel's  notes. 
I  don't  recall  whether  this  is  an  inference  on 
my  part  or  whether  this  was  actually  said,  but  my 
understanding  was  to  go  to  those  areas  where  there  was  a 
lack  of  support  for  the  contras  and  to  put  these 
commercials  in  there. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0     During  this  dinner  were  contributions  sought  for 
that  purpose? 

A     As  I  recall,  yes. 

0     By  whom? 

A     By  NEPL  as  an  organization.   I  seem  to  remember 
some  printed  material  that  asked  for  a  minimum  contribution 
of  $30,000.   I  don't  recall  if  there  was  a  person  who 
actually  made  that  pitch. 

0     And  this  was  to  be  used,  you  understood,  to  fund 
these  television  commercials  that  were  shown  after  the 


dinner? 


Yes, 


UNtUiSSra 

Ace-Fedfrai  Reporters.  Imc. 


526 


CNMjm 


OSIO  01  01  I                                    "'             36 

...ikepaulus  1  !       0     That  was  the  purpose  of  the  contribution  pitch 

2  i  in  the  printed  material? 

3  i  A     Yes. 

4  I  I  should  say  that  in  my  counsel's  notes  I  have 

5  in  areas  where  there  were  legislators  who  were  not  in 

6  support  of  the  contras,  to  place  the  commercials  there  to 

7  influence  them  to  support  the  contras. 

8  0  Were  there  any  particular  legislators  mentioned 

9  I  or  any  particular  districts  mentioned? 

10  A  Not  that  I  recall. 

11  Let  me  put  that  another  way.   I  think  there  may 

12  have  been  some  mentioned,  but  I  don't  recall  who  they  were. 

13  i  Q     Who  mentioned  them? 

I 

14  A  I  don't  remember. 

15  0  Would  it  be  Mr.  Channell? 

16  A  I  really  don't  remember  which  one  of  the  group 

17  might  have  mentioned  them. 

18  0  During  the  dinner  did  Mr.  Channell  come  to  your 

19  table  and  speak  to  you  at  any  point? 

20  A  Yes. 

21  0  What  did  he  say? 

'      22  A     This  was  near  the  end  of  the  dinner.   I  think  it 


wmwL 


527 


UNCLASSIFIED 


'10  01  01  i  37 

.ikepaulus  1    may  have  been  before  the  presentation  of  the  coiranercials . 

2  j  He  came  over  and  he  said  that  he  understood  that  I  had 

3  offered  to  possibly  make  what  they  considered  a  large 

4  I   contribution  with  the  intent  of  supplying  arms  of  some  kind 

5  to  the  contras.   He  said  that  there  was  a  small  group  of 

I 

6  I   people  in  the  United  States  that  made  this  kind  of 

7  !   contribution.   He  indicated  perhaps  I  might  want  to  join 
j 

8  ^   this  group  or  become  one  of  this  small  group  of  people  that 

9  in  effect  supported  the  President's  desire  to  support  the 

10  I   contras  in  this  way.   He  asked  if  I  would  meet  with  him  and 

11  I   Colonel  North  again  in  the  morning  for  breakfast. 

12  0     What  did  you  say? 

13  A     I  said  I  would  meet  with  them. 

14  i       0     When  he  made  these  comments  to  you  did  he  come 
i 

15  I   to  your  table  and  sit  down  In  an  empty  chair,  or  did  he 
i 

16  I   come  next  to  your  chair  and  stand  and  make  these  comments 

17  to  you?  Physically  what  was  the  arrangement? 

18  A     As  1  recall,  there  was  an  empty  chair.   I  think 

19  it  may  have  been  the  chair  that  Mr.  Mil^r  had  previously 

20  occupied.   Toward  the  end  of  the  dinner  people  were  moving 

21  around  a  little  bit.   He  pulled  the  chair  up  and  slid  over 

22  next  to  me  and  said  this  out  of  earshot  of  anyone  else. 


UNCLASSIFIED 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


528 


sgio  01  01 
..likepaulus  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 

6  i 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSHD 


33 


Q     Did  he  identify  any  of  the  other  contributors 
that  were  in  this  special  group? 

A     Not  at  that  time. 

0     Did  he  later? 

A      Yes. 

0     Who  did  he  identify  later? 

A     He  mentioned  one  of  the  Hunt  brothers  of  Texas, 
the  well  known  oil  millionaire  Hunt  brothers.   I  think  it 
was  Bunker  Hunt.   The  name  Ramsey  was  also  mentioned  in  a 
later  conversation.   I  don't  recall  whether  it  was 
Mr.  Channell  or  Colonel  North  who  mentioned  him.   There  was 
a  couple  who  was  identified  who  had  bought  some  radio 
equipment  for  the  contras,  but  he  didn't  mention  their 
names.   He  didn't  identify  them  specifically. 

0     Did  he  later  identify  the  amount  of 
contributions  from  Mr.  Hunt? 

A     I  seem  to  remember  him  mentioning  a  figure  over 
a  million  dollars. 

0     What  about  Mr.  Ramsey? 

A     I  don't  think  he  mentioned  specific  amounts  by 
Mr.  Ramsey. 

0     Did  you  know  Mr.  Ramsey? 


uussra. 


529 


UNCUSSiriED 


9^10    01    01 

..likepaulus    1 

A 

2     i 

0 

3 

A 

39 


No. 


Did  you  know  Mr.  Hunt? 

Members  of  my  family  know  the  Hunt  family, 
4  I   because  we're  both  from  the  same  town  and  in  some  ways  in 


5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


the  same  business.   I  may  have  met  him  in  the  distant  past, 
but  I  don't  really  know  him. 

0     Going  back  to  the  dinner  at  the  Hay-Adams  after 
the  briefing,  Mr.  Channell  invited  you  to  breakfast  the 
next  morning  with  Colonel  North  and  you  accepted  the 
invitation.   What  occurred  that  evening  after  this,  that 
you  recall? 

A     Nothing.   After  the  presentation  the  NEPL  group 
broke  up.   Everybody  went  their  separate  ways.   I  went  to 
bed  upstairs  in  the  Hay-Adams. 

0     Did  you  meet  the  next  morning  with  Mr.  Channell 
and  Colonel  North? 

A     Yes . 

0     Anyone  else  present? 

A     No. 

0     Where  was  the  meeting? 

A     At  the  Hay-Adams,  in  the  main  dining  room. 

0     What  time  did  you  meet? 


m 


PORTERS,  Inc. 


530 


UNCUSSIFIEO 


no  01  01  40 

..likepaulus  I  '  A     It  was  approximately  eight  in  the  morning. 

2  I        0      How  long  did  the  meeting  continue? 

3  I       A     I  believe  that  Colonel  North  was  there  for  about 

4  I   half  an  hour  and  then  he  left.   As  I  recall,  Mr.  Channell 
I 

1 

5  I   was  there  before  Colonel  North  arrived  and  after  he  left. 

6  j   I  was  with  Mr.  Channell  perhaps  a  total  of  an  hour  to  an 

7  I   hour  and  a  half  and  with  Colonel  North  for  half  an  hour  to 

8  1   45  minutes. 

9  i       0     starting  with  your  meeting  with  Mr.  Channell 
! 

10  before  Colonel  North  arrived,  what  did  Mr.  Channell  say? 

11  A     I  don't  recall  specifically  what  he  said.   My 

12  i   general  recollection  is  that  it  was  something  of  a 

13  .   continuation  of  the  discussion  that  we  had  the  night  before 

14  j   after  dinner,  which  was  that  there  was  this  small  group  of 

15  people  who  supported  the  President's  wish  to  support  the 

16  contras  and  were  giving  money  for  weapons  and  that  I  might 

17  join  that  group. 

18  He  also  indicated  that  he  had  checked  me  out 

19  overnight.   By  that,  I  assume  that  he  meant  that  it  is 

20  possible  using  the  government  computer  system  to  check 

21  somebody  out  pretty  fast.   I  don't  know  whether  this  was  a 

22  fund-raising  ploy  or  whether  this  was  for  real,  but  I 


UNCLASflED 

Ace-Pederal  Reporters. 


Inc 


531 


mmm 


41 


310    01    01 

I 

.iiikepaulus  1  thought  it  was  for  real  at  the  time.   He  said  that  this 

2  ;  group  consisted  mainly  of  reputable  people;  it  wasn't  a 

3  :  group  of  just  anybody;  he  said  there  were  a  lot  of  people 

i 

4  !  who  wanted  to  join  the  group,  perhaps  people  with  criminal 

5  j  records  and  whatever,  but  they  wouldn't  allow  anybody  like 

6  j  that  in  this  group.   I  assumed  by  what  he  said  that  he 

I 

7  I  meant  he  had  checked  me  on  some  kind  of  a  national  security 

8  i  computer  setup  and  found  that  I  checked  out. 

9  I       0     Did  he  explain  the  reason  you  were  going  to  be 

10  meeting  with  Colonel  North? 

11  j       A     I  don't  know  if  he  in  so  many  words  gave  an 
I 

12  j  explanation  for  the  reason.   My  understanding  was  we  were 

13  to  continue  this  discussion  about  the  supply  of  weapons  to 

I 

14  the  contras. 

15  I       0     How  long  was  this  discussion  with  Mr.  Channell 

16  1  before  Colonel  North  arrived? 

17  A     It  was  brief.   I  don't  even  know  whether  you 

18  would  quite  call  it  a  discussion. 

19  0     Five  or  ten  minutes? 

20  A     Something  like  that.   We  were  really  waiting  for 

21  Colonel  North  to  come  and  talking  briefly  in  the  meanwhile. 

22  0     What  hAOPengd  after  Colonel  North  arrived? 


Ace-Federal  Reporters.  Inc. 


532 


UNCLASSIFIED 


10  01  01  i  42 

.ikepaulus  1         A     As  I  recall,  Mr.  Channell  indicated  to  Colonel 

2  i  North  that  I  was  willing  to  provide  funds  for  the  purchase 

3  I   of  weapons  and  Colonel  North  began  to  give  a  detailed 

4  account  of  what  were  the  weapons  needs  of  the  contras  at 

5  that  particular  time. 

6  I  Also,  I  should  say  Colonel  North  indicated  that 

7  i   he  personally  could  not  ask  for  money,  that  he  was  not  part 

8  of  a  fund-raising  effort  himself,  that  he  was  simply  there, 

9  1   as  I  recall,  to  provide  technical  information.   He  made  it 

10  very  clear  that  he  could  not  ask  for  money  because  he  was 

I 

11  I  working  for  the  government. 
! 

12  i       0  .   Do  you  know  what  prompted  that  comment?   Was 

13  I   that  in  response  to  some  comment  you  made  or  Mr.  Channell 

14  i  made? 

15  A     1  don't  think  it  was  in  response  to  a  specific 

16  comment;  it  was  more  in  response  to  the  situation.   Because 

17  there  I  was,  considering  giving  money,  and  there  was 

18  Mr.  Channell  and  Colonel  North  there,  and  he  wanted  to  make 

19  the  relationship  clear  to  me  that  he  was  not  asking  for 

20  money  and  that  he  could  not  ask  for  money  as  a 

21  representative  of  the  United  States  Government. 

22  0     You  say  he  described  the  weapons  needs  of  the 


UNtiASsro 

Ace-Federal  Reporters.  Inc. 


533 


UNCLASSIFIED 


'10   01   01 


43 


..likepaulus    1  contras. 

2  !       A     Yes. 

3  '       0     Did  he  refer  to  any  document? 

4  I       A     As  I  recall,  he  had  a  small  notebook  which  he 

5  !  referred  to  from  time  to  time. 

6  j       0     Did  he  show  you  the  notebook? 

7  ;       A     No.   He  pulled  it  out  and  looked  at  it,  but  he 

8  didn't  show  it  to  me  so  that  I  could  see  what  was  written 

9  in  it, 

10  I       0     What  needs  did  he  identify? 

11  :       A     He  indicated  the  contras  needed  several  million 

12  rounds  of  NATO  ammunition.   I  think  it  was  called  NATO  7 

13  ;   point  something.   It  was  a  description  of  the  kind  of 

14  ammunition.   I  think  at  that  point  he  also  indicated  that 

15  they  needed  another  kind  of  ammunition,  which  was  an 

16  Eastern  Bloc  type  of  ammunition.   He  explained  that  the 

17  contras  often  used  Eastern  Bloc  weapons  because  that  is  the 

18  nature  of  counterinsurgency,  to  use  the  weapons  of  the 

19  group  in  power.   He  indicated  that  they  needed  antiaircraft 

20  missiles  to  shoot  down  the  helicopter  gunships  that  were 

21  being  supplied  by  the  Russians.   And  there  was  some 

I 

22  discussion  about  different  types  of  antiaircraft  missiles. 


cf-Federal  Reporters.  Inc 


534 


'^iV^Ol  01 
..li  kepaulus  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 


UNCUSSIFIED 


44 


The  terms  "Blowpipe"  and  "Stingers"  were  mentioned. 

0     Were  any  costs  mentioned? 

A     Yes.   The  cost  of  the  missiles  were  mentioned. 
The  cost  of  Blowpipe  missiles  was  mentioned  as  S20,000  each 
and  you  had  to  buy  them  in  packs  of  ten.   He  also  talked 
about  a  kind  of  aircraft  that  was  needed,  which  were  these 

7  I  Maule  aircraft. 

8  I       0     What  was  the  purpose  of  the  aircraft? 

9  A     As  I  understood  it,  there  were  two  purposes. 


10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22  i 


One  was  to  resupply  or  to  supply  the  contras  with  whatever 
supplies  they  might  need  by  dropping  the  supplies  out  of 
the  aircraft.   The  other  was  a  kind  of  reconnaissance 
mission  where  they  could  fly  along  and  undertake 
reconnaissance  wot 


Was  a  price  given  for  the  planes? 
Yes.   It  was  $65,000  each. 


535 


iJNCUSSiriEu 


9 

10 

11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


0     What  other  types  of  military  items  did  he 
describe? 

A     He  talked  about  ammunition,  antiaircraft 
missiles,  the  airplane.   As  far  as  I  can  recall,  that's 
about  it. 

How  long  was  Colonel  North  at  the  breakfast? 

About  half  an  hour. 

Then  you  continued  to  meet  with  Mr.  Channell? 


Yes. 


What  happened  after  Colonel  North  left? 

The  substance  of  what  happened  is  that  I  told 
Mr.  Channell  that  I  would  think  all  of  this  over  and  get 
back  to  him  right  away  and  let  him  know  whether  I  wanted  to 
go  ahead  and  make  a  contribution  or  not. 

0     You  said  that  Colonel  North  stated  that  he  could 


51 


wiASsra 


10    01    01  I  lllllJL>nVWlt   B»»»*'  46 

.uikepaulus  1  '   not  request  a  contribution.   Did  Mr.  Channell  request  a 

2  contribution  after  Colonel  North  left? 

3  j       A      I  would  say  that  this  was  more  of  an  offer  on  my 

4  I   part.   I  don't  know  quite  how  you  would  describe  it.   I  had 

5  I   been  the  one  to  say  that  I  was  willing  to  give  money  and 
i 

6  I   Mr.  Channell  indicated,  of  course,  that  he  was  willing  to 

7  I   receive  it.   I  don't  know  quite  whether  you  call  it  an 

8  i   offer  or  a  solicitation. 

9  0     You  indicated  an  interest  in  becoming  a  part  of 

10  the  select  group? 

11  A     Yes. 

I 

12  !  I  am  just  reminded  of  something  here.   At  some 

13  j   point,  and  I  think  it  was  at  that  meeting,  or  it  may  have 

14  been  the  evening  before  —  certain  elements  of  these 

15  conversations,  I  can't  recall  whether  they  took  place  the 

16  morning  after  or  the  night  before  —  but  Mr.  Channell 

17  indicated  to  me  that  if  one  were  to  give  as  much  as 

18  $J00,000  that  President  Reagan  would  meet  with  the  person 

19  who  was  giving  the  money  and  thank  him  for  the 

20  contribution.   The  way  he  put,  as  I  recall,  was  that  he 

21  would  spend  15  minutes  alone  with  this  person,  spend  a  few 

22  minutes  chatting  with  him,  and  by  spending  the  time  with 


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likepaulus  1  him  would  indicate  his  appreciation  for  the  extraordinary 

2  j  contribution  that  this  person  was  making  to  national 

3  !  security. 

4  !  0     Did  he  identify  any  persons  who  made  such  a 

t 

5  contribution  and  had  met  with  the  President? 

6  A  He  indicated  that  there  were  people  who  had  met 

7  j  with  the  President.   I  don't  think  he  named  any  names. 

8  ;  I  also  recall  that  at  some  point  he  mentioned 

9  that  these  meetings,  if  my  recollection  is  correct,  were 

10  not  on  the  record. 

11  0  What  did  you  understand  that  to  mean? 
I 

12  I  A     That  they  were  not  logged  in  on  the  normal 

13  {  appointment  calendars  that  the  President  keeps,  the 

14  I  implication  being  that  this  was  so  secret  that  the 
i 

15  President  wanted  to  keep  it  so  not  everybody  in  the  White 

16  i  House  knew  what  was  going  on. 

17  I  am  also  reminded  that  Mr.  Channell  gave  his 

18  home  address  for  this  contribution. 

19  I  don't  recall  the  specific  words  or  exactly 

20  what  Mr.  Channell  said,  but  the  substance  simply  was  that  I 

21  would  go  home,  think  this  over,  and  then  if  I  were  to  make 

22  a  contribution  for  the  purposes  we  discussed,  I  should  send 


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16  ! 
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\iHimim 


48 


this  to  his  home  address.   He  gave  me  his  home  address. 

0     Mr.  Channell  had  described  to  you  the  select 
group  that  made  contributions  for  military  support.   Did 
you  understand  his  comment  with  respect  to  the  contributors 
who  made  a  $300,000  contribution  and  could  meet  with  the 
President  to  be  a  part  of  this  select  group  that  he  had 
referred  to? 

A     Yes . 

Also,  he  indicated  that  one  could  specify  what 
kind  of  support  he  wanted  to  give.   For  example,  if  you 
felt  uncomfortable  with  the  idea  of  giving  military 
support,  you  could  give  some  kind  of  nonmilitary  support. 
I  think  it  was  in  that  context  that  he  mentioned  a  couple 
that  had  given  radio  equipment.   If  you  wanted  to  give 
military  support,  you  could  do  that. 

0     And  you  told  Mr.  Channell  you  would  consider 
making  a  contribution? 

A     Yes. 

0     Was  that  the  way  the  meeting  ended? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Did  you  go  back  to  New  York  then? 

A     Yes. 


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10  01  01  I  49 

.ikepaulus  1  ;  There  is  something  else.   In  the  course  of 

2  !   discussing  the  weaponry  needs  we  were  discussing  how  much 

3  ]   the  weapons  cost,  and  I  seem  to  remember  that  during  the 

i 

4  j   meeting  with  Mr.  Channell  and  Colonel  North  it  was 

i 

5  j   expressed  to  me  that  two  or  three  million  dollars  worth  of 

6  weapons  would  get  us  through  to  the  point  where  the 

7  1   congressional  money  would  start  to  flow  again. 

8  0     Did  Mr.  Channell  suggest  that  you  contribute 

9  $300,000  so  you  could  meet  with  the  President?* 

10  A     He  didn't  pin  down  the  amount  that  way.   He 

11  indicated  that  a  contribution  of  that  level  would  qualify 
I 

12  I   me,  so  to  speak,  for  a  meeting  with  the  President.   He 
I 

13  didn't  limit  it  to  $300,000.   During  later  discussions,  and 

14  I  can't  recall  exactly  the  point  of  the  discussion,  but  he 

15  I   did  suggest  that  I  give  enough  to  qualify  to  meet  with  the 

16  President  and  he  also  indicated  that  he  would  like  me  to 

17  function  as  a  fund-raiser.   What  he  suggested  was  that  I 

18  give  money  myself  and  agree  to  go  out  and  raise  monay  from 

19  other  people  that  I  might  know  and  meet  with  the  President 

20  in  conjunction  with  doing  this. 

21  0     This  occurred  at  a  later  conversation? 

22  A     I  don't  recall  specifically.   I  think  he  may 


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have  indicated  at  this  time  that  someone  who  gave  as  much 
as  $300,000  could  meet  with  the  President  and  then  in  a 
later  conversation  urged  me  to  bring  my  contribution  up  to 
t+iat  level  and  past  that  level  and  function  as  a 
fund-raiser  myself  and  meet  with  the  President. 
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51 


MR.  FRYMAN:   Back  on  the  record. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  after  the  breakfast  meeting  with 
Colonel  North  that  we  just  discussed  did  you  make  a 
contribution  to  NEPL  for  the  purchase  of  military  equipment 
for  the  contras? 
A     Yes. 

0   .  How  many  days  later  did  you  make  the 
contribution? 

A     It  was  three  or  four  days  later. 
0     Did  you  have  any  further  conversations  with 
Colonel  North  or  Mr.  Channell  between  the  breakfast  meeting 
and  the  time  you  made  the  contribution? 
A     Yes. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   Listen  carefully  to  what  he  said. 
THE  WITNESS:   Could  you  repeat  the  question, 
please? 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
Q  Did  you  have  any  further  discussions  with 

Colonel  North  or  Mr.  Channell  between  the  breakfast  meeting 
that  you  described  and  the  time  you  made  the  contribution 
three  or  four  days  later? 


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52 


MR.  NEWMAN:   The  way  that  question  is  phrased,  I 
think  you  are  making  it  difficult.   I  don't  understand  what 
you  mean  by  made  the  contribution.   The  scenario  is  he 
wrote  the  check  and  went  down  there  without  a  prior 
appointment  and  delivered  the  check. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0     Let's  focus  on  the  writing  of  the  check.   Did 
you  have  any  conversations  with  Colonel  North  or 
Mr.  Channell  between  the  breakfast  meeting  and  the  time  you 
wrote  the  check? 

A     No.   To  my  recollection,  none. 

0     You  stated  that  Mr.  Channell  had  asked  that  you 
send  any  contribution  to  his  residence. 

A     Yes,  via  Federal  Express. 

0     How  did  you  deliver  the  check? 

A     In  person. 

0     To  whom  and  where? 

A     I  came  directly  to  Washington  either  Monday  or 
Tuesday  of  the  next  week  and  hand  delivered  the  check  to 
Mr.  Channell.   I  believe  I  actually  handed  it  to  him  at  the 
Hay-Adams  Hotel. 

0     Had  you  made  a  prior  appointment? 

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53 


No. 


What  was  the  amount  of  the  check? 

$130,000. 

How  did  you  find  Mr.  Channell  when  you  came  to 


Washington  that  day? 

A     I  went  from  the  airport  to  the  NEPL  office  and 
told  the  staff  members  there  that  I  had  something  very 
important  that  I  needed  to  see  Mr.  Channell  about  right 
away.   Shortly  after  that  Jane  McLaughlin  took  me  over  to 
the  Hay-Adams  Hotel.   I  had  dinner  with  Ms.  McLaughlin  and 
then  Mr.  Channell  arrived. 

0     Was  this  at  midday  or  was  this  in  the  evening? 

A     In  the  evening. 

0     Did  you  tell  Ms.  McLaughlin  what  you  had  for 
Mr.  Channell? 

A     As  I  recall,  I  did  not. 

0     Did  you  tell  her  you  had  a  contribution? 

A     I  don't  think  so. 

0     You  say  you  told  her  you  had  something  important 
for  Mr.  Channell? 

A     I  either  said  I  have  something  important  for  him 
or  I  need  to  talk  to  him  about  something  important  and  I 


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■nikepaulus  1  1  need  to  see  him  right  away. 

2  I       0     What  did  she  say  in  response? 

3  ':       A      I  think  it  was  actually  the  staff  members  at  the 


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NEPL  office  that  I  told  this  to,  not  Ms.  McLaughlin.   So 
they  arranged  for  Ms.  McLaughlin  to  come  and  take  me  over 
to  the  Hay-Adams  and  then  they  tracked  down  Mr.  Channell. 

0     Mr.  Channell  joined  you  and  Ms.  McLaughlin  at 
the  Hay-Adams? 

A      Yes . 

0     Did  Ms.  McLaughlin  stay  after  Mr.  Channell 
arrived? 

A     Briefly,  and  then  she  left. 

0     And  then  you  and  Mr.  Channell  had  a  meal 
together;  is  that  correct? 

A     No.   I  had  just  finished  having  a  meal  with 
Ms.  McLaughlin,  and  so  Mr.  Channell  and  I  had  drinks 
together. 

0     During  the  time  you  were  with  Mr.  Channell  what 
did  you  say  to  him  and  what  did  he  say  to  you? 

A     I  gave  him  the  check  and  I  said  this  is  for  the 
purchase  of  the  two  Maule  aircraft,  and  he  was  very  pleased 
and  said  thank  you  very  much.   I  don't  recall  his  exact 


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mmm 


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words,  but  he  was  appreciative.   I  think  at  that  point  he 
discussed  the  possibility  that  I  might  raise  more  money  or 
give  more  money.   I  think  he  went  out  to  call  Colonel  North 
to  come  over,  to  see  if  he  could  get  Colonel  North  to  join 
us. 

Q     Did  Colonel  North  join  you  at  the  Hay-Adams? 

A     Yes. 

Q     How  long  did  Colonel  North  spend  with  you? 

A     About  half  an  hour. 

0     Was  there  discussion  of  your  contribution  with 
Colonel  North? 

A     Yes.   Mr.  Channell  showed  Colonel  North  the 
check.   Colonel  North  again  reviewed  the  further  needs  of 
the  contras. 

0     What  did  Colonel  North  say  after  Mr.  Channell 
showed  him  the  check?   Did  he  express  appreciation  for  the 
check? 

A     I  think  he  just  looked  at  it  and  nodded.   I 
can't  remember  exactly  what  he  said. 

0     But  after  seeing  the  check  he  then  proceeded  to 
describe  further  military  equipment  needs  of  the  contras? 


Yes. 


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likepaulus  1  I       0     Were  these  different  needs  than  he  had  spoken  to 

2  you  about  the  week  before? 

3  A     Essentially  they  were  the  same.   I  think  he 

4  !   indicated  there  were  some  slight  differences.   The  Blowpipe 

5  I  missiles,  I  think,  were  no  longer  available.   One  option 

6  that  I  had  was  to  give  $200,000  to  buy  a  ten-pack  of 

i 

7  j  Blowpipe  missil« 


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essentially  they  were  the  same  needs.   We  discussed 
ammunition,  weapons,  the  same  list  pretty  much  as  he  had 
discussed  before  at  the  breakfast  meeting  the  previous 
Friday. 

0     Was  there  any  suggestion  about  the  size  of  a 
further  contribution  from  you? 

A     As  I  recall,  in  the  course  of  discussing  the 
weapons  needs  costs  were  mentioned,  and  I  got  the  feeling 
that  they  could  use  as  much  as  I  could  give. 

0     Was  there  any  discussion  of  a  meeting  with  the 
President  while  Colonel  North  was  present? 

A     Yes. 

0     What  was  said? 


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8310  02  02 

..likepaulus  1  ,       A     I  think  Channell  again  indicated  that  if  I  were 

2  to  agree  to  go  out  and  either  give  more  money  myself  or 

3  i   function  in  some  kind  of  a  fund-raising  capacity,  or  both, 

4  that  I  could  meet  with  the  President  and  that  he  would 

5  I   express  his  approval  and  appreciation  of  all  of  this,  and  I 

6  I   indicated  that's  not  why  I  was  doing  this,  to  get  a  meeting 

7  j   with  the  President. 

8  1  I  think  I  mentioned  before  that  it  was  mentioned' 

9  that  these  meetings  with  the  President  were  off  the  record 

! 

10  j   or  some  of  them  were  off  the  record. 

I 

11  I       Q     What  did  Colonel  North  say  about  meetings  with 

i 

12  j   the  President? 

13  A     Throughout  my  various  discussions  with  him  I 

14  seem  to  recall  that  he  indicated  a  number  of  times  that  he 

15  I   met  with  the  President  and  was  responsible  for  briefing  him 

16  on  certain  affairs.   I  got  the  impression  that  Colonel 

17  North  met  with  the  President  on  a  fairly  regular  basis. 

18  0     What  was  his  comment  or  response  to 

19  Mr.  Channell' s  remark  that  if  you  contributed  $300,000  you 

20  would  have  the  opportunity  for  a  private  meeting  with  the 

21  President? 

22  A     I  don't  think  he  had  any  particular  response. 


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0     But  he  was  present  when  Mr.  Channell  said  this 
to  you? 

A     Yes.   Again,  I  don't  recall  the  exact  words 
Mr.  Channell  used,  but  I  remember  saying  in  Colonel  North's 
presence  something  about,  well,  I'm  not  so  sure  I  even  want 
to  meet  with  the  President.   Something  along  those  lines. 
Or  that's  not  the  reason  why  I'm  doing  this.   I  remember 
Colonel  North  was  there.   I  don't  recall  exactly  what  it 
was  that  Mr.  Channell  said  to  me,  the  exact  words. 

Q     But  in  substance  did  he  say  that  if  you  gave  a 
donation  of  a  certain  amount,  in  the  range  of  $300,000  or 
more,  that  you  would  have  the  opportunity  to  meet  with  the 
President? 

A     Yes . 

0     Did  Colonel  North  say  anything  about  the 
substance  of  his  briefings  with  the  President? 

A     It  may  not  have  been  at  this  particular  meeting 
that  he  said  this.   I  recall  in  a  general  way  that  Colonel 
North  said  that  he  met  with  the  President  and  briefed  him. 
My  recollection  is  that  it  was  on  a  routine,  regular 
basis.   I  don't  recall  what  the  subject  of  the  briefing 


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0     Did  he  indicate  that  he  reported  to  the 


2  I  President  about  the  contributions  that  had  been  made? 


3 
4 

5 
6  ! 

7 

8 

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17 
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A     No,  not  that  I  recall. 

0     During  this  meeting  with  Colonel  North  at  the 
Hay-Adams  which  you  have  been  describing  you  said  he  again 
reviewed  the  military  needs.   Did  he  take  out  his  notebook 
again? 

A   .  I  think  he  did. 

0     What  else  did  he  say  during  this  meeting? 
A     He  had  talked  previously  about  the  drug 
smuggling  operations  of  the  Sandinistas,  and  I  asked  him  if 
there  was  any  way  that  the  United  States  could  intercept 
any  of  these  large  quantities  of  money  that  were  involved 
in  the  drug  traffic  to  fund  the  contras  with,  and  he  said, 
no,  that  that  was  not  an  option.   He  cited  moral  grounds 
for  that.   He  said  that  if  we  got  involved  in  any  kind  of 
drug  smuggling  operations  in  an  effort  to  fund  the  contras 
we  would  be  undermining  our  moral  position. 

He  did,  by  way  of  anecdote,  tell  some  kind  of  a 
story  about  how  he  had  been  involved  in  some  respect  in 
some  kind  of  a  drug  arrest  or  the  arrest  of  a  drug  dealer 
where  there  were  millions  of  dollars  in  a  suitcase  or  in  a 


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trunk  of  a  car,  by  way  of  illustrating  how  this  could  be 
done,  to  take  the  money  and  use  it  to  buy  arms  with.   But 
he  indicated  that  it  had  been  turned  in  to  the  proper 
authorities. 

0  What  had  been  the  nature  of  his  involvement  in 
this  incident? 

A     I  don't  know.   I  got  the  impression  that  he  was 
somehow  involved  in  a  peripheral  way. 

0   '   Did  he  indicate  when  this  incident  had  occurred? 

A     I  think  he  did,  but  I  don't  recall  exactly  when 
it  was.   My  vague  recollection  is  it  was  in  1985  or  1986. 

0     How  did  the  meeting  with  Colonel  North  conclude 
on  this  occasion? 

A  After  Colonel  North  had  been  present  for  about 
half  an  hour  or  so  he  left.  I  don't  recall  the  exact  bit 
of  conversation  that  preceded  the  closing  of  the  meeting. 

0     In  his  presence  there  was  a  discussion  of  a 
possible  further  contribution  by  you,  was  there  not? 

A     Yes. 

0     And  a  discussion  of  the  size  of  the  contribution 
and  if  it  exceeded  S300,000  you  would  have  the  opportunity 
to  meet  with  the  President? 


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no  02  02 

.iiikepaulus  1  j       A     This  is  Mr.  Channell  talking  now.   I  believe  it 

2  i  was  in  North's  presence.   That  if  I  were  to  give  more  than 

3  j  3300,000  I  could  meet  with  the  President.   It  may  have  been 

4  i  at  a  later  point,  but  I  think  it  was  also  at  that  point 

5  i  that  Channell  indicated  to  me  I  might  also  act  as  a 

6  i  fund-raiser  myself. 

7  I       0     What  happened  after  Colonel  North  left? 

I 

8  i       A     Mr.  Channell  and  I  spent  a  few  more  minutes 

9  I  together  and  then  I  left. 

! 

10  j       0     Did  Mr.  Channell  make  a  further  request  for 

11  I  contributions? 

1 
I 

12  i       A      I  think  the  discussion  that  we  had  been  having 

13  I  all  along  continued,  you  might  say.   I  left  on  the  note 

i 

14  that  I  would  give  all  this  some  further  thought. 

15  0     What  did  you  decide  after  giving  it  further 

16  thought? 

17  A     I  thought  about  this  for  a  few  days  and  then  I 

18  sent  Mr.  Channell  a  Mailgram  which  said  in  effect  I  support 

19  your  efforts  but  I  feel  I  have  gone  as  far  as  I  can  go  and 

20  I  don't  want  to  function  as  a  fund-raiser  myself  and  I 

21  don't  want  to  give  any  more  money. 

22  0     Did  you  consult  with  anyone  else  in  reaching 


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'^10  02  02 

i 

likepaulus  1  !   this  decision? 

2  '       A      I  had  spoken  to  my  wife  after  the  breakfast 

3  '     meeting  with  Mr.  Channell  and  Colonel  North,  the  original 

I 

4  1   breakfast  meeting.   I  had  spoken  to  her  briefly  over  that 

5  weekend.   I  don't  know  whether  you  call  that  a  consultation 

6  I   or  not.   I  told  her  in  a  general  sort  of  way  what  was  going 

7  on. 

8  i       0     Did  you  speak  to  anyone  else? 

i 

9  !        A      No. 

i 

10  I       0     What  about  after  this  second  meeting  with 

11  i   Colonel  North  and  Mr.  Channell? 

12  i       A     Other  than  my  wife,  I  didn't  speak  to  anyone.   I 

13  i   think  my  bookkeeper  drew  up  the  check,  but  she  had  no  idea 

14  i   what  it  was  for,  what  this  was  all  about. 

15  {       0     I  take  it  you  had  no  communications  with  Colonel 

16  North  or  Mr.  Channell  between  the  meeting  you  described  at 

17  j   the  Hay-Adams  and  the  time  you  sent  the  Mailgram  you  just 

18  referred  to. 

19  A     My  best  recollection  is  that  I  didn't.   There 

20  may  have  been  a  phone  call,  but  I  don't  think  so.   My 

21  recollection  is  there  was  no  further  communication. 

22  0      Did  you  have  any  communication  with  Colonel 


H 


RTERS,  Inc. 


553 


UNCLASSra 


•10    02    02  I  63 

'! 

.nikepaulus  1     North  or  Mr.  Channell  after  you  sent  the  Mailgram  that  you 


2 

3 

i 
I 

*     i 

5  ; 

1 

6  ; 

7  : 

8 
9  ; 

10  I 
11 

12  : 

''   I 

14  i 

i 

15  I 

16  I 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


I  have  referred  to? 

A      Yes,  I  did. 

0     What  was  the  next  occasion,  with  either? 

A      I  got  a  call  from  someone  at  NEPL  —  I  don't 
remember  who  it  was,  whether  it  was  Mr.  Channell  or 
possibly  Ms.  McLaughlin  —  indicating  that  they  wanted  to 
have  lunph  with  me.   They  were  coming  up  to  New  York  and 
they  wanted  to  have  lunch  with  me.   This  was  a  couple  weeks 
after  this  meeting  at  the  Hay-Adams.   I  think  it  was  on  the 
18th  of  April  that  they  were  coming  to  New  York,  and  I  in 
fact  did  have  lunch  with  them  on  the  18th  of  April.   I  had 
lunch  with  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad. 


Just  the  three  of  you? 

Yes. 

where  did  you  have  lunch? 

At  the  Union  League  Club  in  New  York. 

What  did  Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  say  at  this 


0 
A 

0 
A 

0 

lunch? 

A     They  indicated  to  me  that  this  entire  process  of 
my  making  a  contribution  had  happened  so  quickly  that  they 
didn't  have  the  opportunity  to  give  me  all  the 


UNCLASSIFIED 

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UNCUSSIFIED 


no  02  02  ;j  64 

mikepaulus  1    presentations  they  wanted  to  give  to  me,  to  show  me  the 

2  J  courtesies  they  wanted  to  show  to  me,  and  would  I  be 

3  !   willing  to  come  down  to  Washington  for  another  meeting  with 

4  '   Colonel  North.   That  was  one  subject  that  was  discussed. 

5  Q     What  others? 

6  I       A     I  at  that  point  indicated  a  concern  about  the 

7  legality  and  confidentiality  of  their  work. 

8  ''  Q     Had  you  consulted  with  anyone  about  the  legality 

9  I   or  confidentiality  of  their  work? 

10  ■       A     I  had  asked  an  agency  which  does  background 
i 

11  I   investigations  to  check  on  Mr.  Channell  for  me,  which  they 

12  undertook  to  do.   This  is  a  copy  of  their  report  right 

j 

13  ]   here.   But  that  didn't  come  in  until  later. 

14  0     That  is  included  in  the  documents  that  you 

15  produced  today;  is  that  correct? 

16  I       A     Yes. 

17  0     Did  you  consult  with  an  attorney  at  this  point? 

18  A     No. 

19  0     Did  Mr.  Channell  or  Mr.  Conrad  make  any  further 

20  requests  for  contributions  from  you  at  this  luncheon? 

21  A     My  understanding  was  the  general  purpose  of 

22  their  visit  was  t*iaihl^ij/ate_me_  as  a  contributor. 


Ace-Federal  Reporters.  Inc. 


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8310  02  02 

.ikepaulus  1 

I 

^  ! 

3 

i 

4  I 
I 

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7  I 

I 

8  i 

9  I 

10  I 

11  I 

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14  i 

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19 
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0     So  it  was  more  general  than  specific? 

A     Yes . 

0     Was  there  any  further  discussion  of  particular 
military  needs  of  the  contras? 

A     I  believe  it  was  at  that  point  that  I  asked  them 
are  the  planes  that  I  bought  flying,  and  they  said  yes, 
they  are. 

0     This  was  with  the  check  you  had  given 
approximately  two  weeks  earlier? 

a'     Yes. 

0     Did  they  say  how  they  knew  that  they  were 
flying? 

A     No.   Although  I  seem  to  remember  a  discussion 
earlier  in  which  Mr.  Channell  indicated,  I  think,  that 
either  he  or  Colonel  North  had  been  in  contact  with  Maule 
Aircraft  in  Georgia  and  had  arranged  to  get  the  aircraft. 

0     You  say  Mr.  Channell  had  indicated  that  earlier? 

A     It  may  have  been  at  the  meeting  at  the 
Hay-Adams,  when  I  gave  the  check  to  Mr.  Channell,  that  he 
indicated  that  he  or  Colonel  North  would  be  in  touch  with 
Maule  Aircraft.   Or  maybe  even  had  been  in  touch  with  Maule 
Aircraft.   And  this  would  be  assuming  that  they  were  going 


Ac 

2O2-347-370O 


IS.  Inc. 

N  ai  ion  w  ide  Coverage  ■  800-  3  36-6Mft 


556 


no   02   02  i 

i 

.nikepaulus    1 

2   ! 

3 

j 

4  ; 

5  j 

6  I 

i 

8  i 

I 

9  I 
i 

10  i 

11  1 
I 

12  1 
I 

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14  I 

I 

15  j 

16  ! 

17 
18 
19 
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ONCUSSIFIED 


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to  get  this  equipment  anyway  and  I  was  just  covering  it  for 
them,  so  to  speak.   I  am  not  quite  sure  whether  their 
getting  the  equipment  depended  on  my  giving  the  check  or 
not . 

0     You  had  not  had  any  conversation  with 
Mr.  Channell  between  the  meal  at  the  Hay-Adams  that  you 
described  and  the  luncheon  at  the  Union  League  Club? 

A     As  far  as  I  recall,  no.   There  was  one  contact, 
I  think,  from  his  office  to  my  office,  and  I  don't  recall 
whether  I  spoke  to  him  personally  or  whether  it  was  through 
the  secretary  where  we  set  up  the  luncheon.   And  I  am  not  ' 
sure  whether  it  was  him  or  Ms.  McLaughlin  or  someone  else 
who  arranged  this. 

0     At  this  luncheon  meeting  in  mid-April  he 
suggested  a  further  meeting  with  Colonel  North? 

A     Yes. 

0     Did  you  have  a  further  meeting  with  Colonel 
North? 

A 

Q 

A 


Yes. 

When  did  that  occur? 

It  was  a  few  days  later.   It  may  have  been  the 


next  day,  but  I  think  it  was  a  few  days  later. 


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'10  02  02 

■iiikepaulus  1  '       0  In  April  of  1986? 

! 

2  j  A  Yes. 

3  I  0  Where  was  it? 

4  !  A  In  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building.   In 

5  I  Colonel  North's  office,  at  the  National  Security  Council 
i 

6  i  office. 

7  ]  0  Who  else  was  present? 

8  !  A  Mr.  Channell  was  there  for  a  brief  period  of 

9  I  time.  , 

10  0  Anyone  else? 

11  A  I  saw  Fawn  Hall,  Colonel  North's  secretary, 

12  although  she  wasn't  at  the  meeting;  she  was  just  outside  at 
I 

13  I  her  desk. 
I 

14  I  0  Anyone  else? 

15  A  No . 

16  0  Channell  was  not  present  for  the  entire  meeting? 

17  A  No. 

18  0  How  long  did  the  meeting  last? 

19  A  Half  an  hour  to  45  minutes. 

20  0  What  did  North  say? 

21  A  We  talked  about  a  number  of  subjects.   While 

22  Channel  was  there  I  believe  we  talked  about  a  humanitarian 


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likepaulus  1  !  aid  program  that  NEPL  was  undertaking,  which  involved 
i 
2  I  supplying  boots  and  military  uniforms  and  various  other 


equipment  like  that  to  the  contras. 

Then  Mr.  Channell  left  and  Colonel  North  and  I 
had  further  discussions.   I  asked  Colonel  North  what  the 


6  !]  general  plan  was  in  Nicaragua:  What's  going  on  here 


7  I 

8  ■ 

9  I 

10  ! 

I 

11  ! 

12  : 

I 

13  i 

14  ; 

I 

15  i 

16  I 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 

22 

I 


anyway?  Why  are  we  giving  them  aid?  what's  going  to 
happen?  ,He  outlined  what  the  general  plan  was. 

Q     What  was  the  general  plan? 

A     First  he  indicated  to  me  that  this  was  very 
secret  information,  that  because  I  was  involved  he  was 
going  to  tell  me.   Basically,  he  said  that  there  were  two 
versions  of  the  same  plan,  one  if  Congress  approved 
continued  funding  of  the  contras  and  one  if  Congress  did 
not  approve  continued  funding  of  the  contras. 

The  basic  plan  was  that  the  contras  would  gather 
their  forces  and  seize  a  certain  part  of  Nicaragua, 
establish  a  provisional  capital  and  a  provisional 
government,  and  the  United  States  would  assist  in  this  by 
blockading  the  country  with  the  Navy,  cutting  off  the 
supplies  coming  in  to  the  Sandinistas  from  Cuba,  would 
recognize  the  contras  as  the  legitimate  government  of 


mm>m 


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•310    02    02 
..likepaulus    1 

2 

I 

3 

I 

4  I 

5  i 

6  I 

7  I 
1 

8  ; 

9  I 
I 

10 

11  i 

12  i 

13  ! 

15  I 

I 

16  I 

17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSSIFIED 


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Nicaragua,  and  the  Sandinistas  would  be  out  and  the  contras 
would  be  in. 

If  Congress  were  to  approve  the  resumption  of 
funding  of  the  contras,  this  would  happen  on  approximately 
an  18-month  time  frame.   If  it  were  not  to  approve  funding 
of  the  contras,  it  would  happen  on  a  much  shorter  time 
frame,  which  was  less  desirable  and  would  be  something  of  a 
desperation  move  on  the  part  of  the  contras. 

I  remember  something  now  which  I  hadn't  recalled 
up  until  now.   I  asked  him  are  we  involved  in  the  beginning 
of  World  War  III  here,  and  we  talked  about  that  a  little 
bit.   He  indicated  that  we  were  not  because  the  Russians 
would  never  be  willing  to  fight  us  for  Nicaragua;  they  have 
enough  problems  of  their  own. 

I  also  indicated  to  him  that  I  felt  uneasy  about 
further  involvement  as  a  civilian,  because  I  didn't  enjoy 
the  protection  of  the  government;  I  wasn't  a  member  of  a 
government  agency  of  any  kind,  and  if  I  were  up  against 
governmental  forces,  I  was  concerned  that  the  KGB,  aside 
from  everyone  else,  would  be  highly  interested  in  these 
activities  of  Colonel  North,  and  if  J  were  out  there  buying 
weapons  as  sort  of  an  independent  agent,  a  civilian,  that  I 


UNCUSSIFIED 

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'10  02  02     i 

likepaulus  1  ' 

2  1 

3  j 

i 

4  I 

5  i 

6  ! 

7  J 

8  i 
I 

9  I 

I 

10  j 

I 

12  I 

13  I 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


70 


was  exposing  myself  to  some  danger  from  hostile  forces,  you 
might  say,  while  at  the  same  time  having  no  training  or  no 
institutional  support.   We  talked  a  little  bit  about  that. 

Then  I  also  indicated  that  if  I  were  Colonel 
North  I  would  be  concerned  that  the  KGB  would  be  interested 
in  his  activities.   We  talked  a  little  bit  about  a 
technique  called,  I  think,  active  measures,  where  the  KGB 
identifies  a  government  operative  who  is  causing  them  a  lot 
of  trouble  and  renders  them  ineffective  somehow.   Colonel 
North  indicated  that  he  was  concerned  that  was  beginning  to 
happen  to  him,  that  there  was  an  article  that  had  appeared 
in  a  Massachusetts  newspaper,  and  it  was  the  kind  of  thing 
the  KGB  might  do  to  try  to.   He  was  involved,  apparently, 
in  trying  to  keep  his  name  out  of  the  papers,  trying  to 
keep  his  picture  out  of  the  papers,  and  he  felt  that  there 
was  some  chance  that  some  of  this  newspaper  leaking  and  so 
forth  that  was  going  on  about  his  activities  were  in  fact 
organized  by  the  KGB.   He  indicated  that  he  was  in  touch 
with  the  FBI  about  that. 

Q     The  press  campaign  that  he  referred  to  is  what 
you  understood  was  meant  by  the  active  measures  that 
related  to  Colonel  North? 


.  Inc. 


561 


UNCUSSIflEO 


'10  02  02 

likepaulus  1  I 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


71 


A     Yes. 

0     Were  you  concerned  about  something  similar  with 
respect  to  you? 

A     In  a  general  way,  yes,  although  I  was  not 
involved  in  any  way  to  the  same  extent  as  Colonel  North. 

0  In  this  overall  plan  that  he  described,  what  was 
to  be  your  role? 

A  My  role  wasn't  really  discussed.  He  was  just 
telling  me  what  I  assumed  was  the  strategy  of  the  United 
States  Government  vis-a-vis  Nicaragua. 

0  Why  did  you  understand  he  was  telling  you  all 
this? 

A  I  felt  that  he  had  accepted  me  as  being  a  member 
of  a  small  group  of  trusted  people  that  was  willing  to  help 
with  this  plan,  or  who  already  had  helped  with  it,  and  then 
as  an  expression  of  this  trust  that  he  was  explaining  to  me 
what  the  general  plan  was. 

0     Did  Colonel  North  request  any  further 
contributions  from  you? 

A     During  the  earlier  meeting,  or  the  earlier  part 
of  the  meeting  when  Mr.  Channel!  was  present,  I  think 
Mr.  Channell  had  indicated  to  me  in  a  general  way  that  they 


Ace-' 


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72 


'10  02  02 

likepaulus  1  i  were  open  for  receiving  contributions  for  this  humanitarian 

2  type  of  aid  that  NEPL  was  involved  in.   But  after  he  left, 

3  i  no,  Colonel  North  didn't  ask  for  any  contributions. 

i 

4  j       0     Did  you  understand  that  NEPL  was  still  open  also 

5  I  for  contributions  for  military  aid? 

6  i       A     That  had  been  my  understanding  from  the 
i 

7  I  beginning,  from  the  earlier  meetings,  but  I  didn't  hear 

8  anything  at  these  later  meetings  that  either  confirmed  or 

9  denied  that. 

10  0     After  your  meeting  with  Colonel  North  did  you 

11  see  Mr.  Channell  that  day? 
! 

12  I       A     I  think  so.   As  I  recall,  Mr.  Channell  came  by 

] 

13  i  and  walked  back  to  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel  with  me.   I  remember 

14  !  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Channel!  about  how  this  was  all 

i 

15  I  part  of  a  larger  plan  on  the  part  of  President  Reagan  to 

16  i  reverse  the  dominoes.   I  am  sure  you  know  what  I  mean  by 

17  !  the  domino  theory.   Start  the  dominoes  going  back  the  other 

18  way.   Nicaragua  was  one  step.   I  think  Afghanistan  was 

19  going  to  be  another  step.   I  think  a  couple  of  African 

20  countries  were  also  mentioned.   I  think  it  was  at  that 

21  point  that  we  had  that  discussion. 

22  I  also  remember  having  a  similar  discussion  at 


rememDer  naving  a  simiia 

UNCUSSIflED 

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10  02  02 
mikepaulus  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 

6  I 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 

12   ; 

13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCLASSIFIED 


73 


the  first  cocktail  party  after  the  first  briefing  with 
Colonel  North.   I  came  up  with  that  idea  myself:  we're 
starting  to  roll  the  dominoes  back  the  other  way.   And  he 
said,  yes,  that's  right,  isn't  it?  That  idea  had  been 
talked  about  before. 

0     Any  discussion  of  further  contributions  with 
Mr.  Channell  after  the  meeting? 

A   ,   He  knew  that  I  had  already  sent  him  that 
Mailgram  saying  I  don't  want  to  give  any  more 
contributions.   The  way  we  left  it  was  if  I  wanted  to  give 
any  more  contributions  I  would  be  in  touch  with  them. 

Q     Have  you  had  any  communication  with  Colonel 
North  since  the  meeting  you  just  described? 

A     Yes . 

0     When? 

A     Colonel  North  wrote  me  a  couple  of  letters.   I 
don't  recall  the  exact  text  of  the  letters,  but  in  effect 
they  thanked  me  for  my  support  and  encouraged  me  to 
continue  my  support. 

0     Have  you  had  any  further  meetings  with  Colonel 


North? 


No. 


A/~r  PV<->PPAi    Rfportfr<;    Ivr 


564 


UNCLASSIFIED 


74 


-^10  02  02 

mikepaulus  1  !       0     Any  telephone  conversations? 

2  i       A     No. 

3  I       0     So  the  only  connnuni cat  ions  would  be  the  letters 

i 

4  ■  that  you  referred  to? 

5  j       A     Yes. 

6  i       0     Have  you  had  any  conununications  with 

7  Mr.  Channell  since  your  talk  with  him  after  the  meeting 

8  I  with  Colonel  North? 

9  i       A     I  was  still  on  their  mailing  list,  of  course,  so 

10  I  I  received  the  usual  stuff  that  they  would  send  out.   Later 

11  I  on  that  year  I  received  an  urgent  request  for,  the  way  they 

12  1  put  it,  the  last  donation  in  regard  to  the  contras  that 

13  I  they  would  ever  ask  for.   This  was  after  Congress  had  voted 

14  !  to  support  the  contras  again.   Meanwhile  there  were  still 

15  I  some  delays  in  terms  of  the  money  trickling  down  from 

16  \  Congress  to  the  contras  themselves,  and  according  to 

17  Channel!  they  urgently  needed  more  supplies.   So  I  made  an 

18  additional  contribution  of  $30,000  later  that  year.   As  I 

19  recall,  that  was  for  what  they  were  calling  humanitarian 

20  aid. 

21  0     After  your  conversation  with  Mr.  Channell 

22  following  the  North  meeting  that  you  described  have  you  had 


UNCLASSIFIED 

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•"10    02    02 

iiiikepaulus    1 

2 

3 

4 

5  I 

6  i 

I 

7  ! 

8 
9 

10 
11 
12 

13  I 

14  I 

i 

"  i 

16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSSIFIED 


75 


any  further  conversations  with  Mr.  Channell  either  in 
person  or  on  the  telephone? 

A     None,  to  my  recollection. 

0     Your  two  contributions  to  NEPL  were  one  for 
$130,000  and  one  for  $30,000.   Other  than  those 
contributions  have  you  made  any  contributions  to  any  entity 
with  respect  to  Nicaragua? 

A     No. 

0     Since  January  1,  1986,  have  you  had  any 
communication  with  President  Reagan? 

A     No.   The  only  exception  that  I  might  want  to  add 
would  be  that  I  can't  recall  if  I  may  have  received  some 
kind  of  routine  political  communication,  such  as 
fund-raising  type  stuff  that  the  Republican  party  would 
send  out  over  President  Reagan's  signature.  Aside  from 
that  sort  of  thing,  none. 

0     Have  you  met  with  President  Reagan  since  January 


1,  1986? 
A 

0 
A 


No. 

Have  you  spoken  with  him  on  the  telephone? 

No.   I  should  say  I  did  meet  with  him  once,  but 


I  believe  that  was  in  1985,  in  connection  with  a  totally 


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.aikepaulus  1  '  different  situation. 

2  j  MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 

3  O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  No.  1  for  identification  a 
I 

4  subpoena  of  the  House  Select  Committee  directed  to 

5  Mr.  O'Boyle,  which  is  dated  March  30,  1987. 


6  1 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


(O'Boyle  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  1  marked 
for  identification.) 
(Document  handed  to  witness.) 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  Deposition  Exhibit  1  is  a  subpoena' 
that  was  served  on  you  in  advance  of  the  deposition  which 
is  similar  to  a  subpoena  that  was  served  on  you  by  the 
Senate  Select  Committee  and  which  calls  for  production  of 
various  documents.   Have  you  produced,  today,  documents  in 
response  to  the  subpoenas  of  the  committees? 
A     Yes. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   So  the  record  is  clear,  Mr.  Fryman, 
we  did  not  produce  any  telephone  toll  records.   We  also  did 
not  produce  his  diary  for  the  reason  previously  stated, 
because  they  are  in  the  possession  of  the  independent 
prosecutor.   We  will  try  to  make  a  search  for  the  toll 


Rs.  Inc. 


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likepaulus  1  ., 
2 
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6  : 

7  I 
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'     I 
'     I 

i 

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1 

13  I 

14  i 

15  I 

16 

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records  and  forward  them  to  you  under  separate  cover. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Let  me  now  mark  as  0 'Boyle 
Deposition  Exhibit  2  for  identification  a  group  of 
documents  which  was  produced  this  morning  by  Mr.  O'Boyle. 
The  entire  group  will  be  Deposition  Exhibit  2. 

(O'Boyle  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  2  marked 
for  identification.) 

MR.  NEWMAN:   Mr.  Fryman,  after  Mr.  O'Boyle  had 
another  chance  to  look  at  the  subpoena,  he  noticed  some 
entities  in  here  that  he  may  have  some  correspondence  from. 
He  will  check  his  records.   If  he  does,  we  will  forward  it 
to  you. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Mr.  Newman,  could  you  identify  for 
the  record  at  the  moment  any  groups  of  documents  that  you 
believe  are  called  for  in  the  subpoena  which  have  not  been 
produced?   You  mentioned  telephone  toll  records  and  you 
mentioned  the  diary.   Is  there  anything  else? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  am  looking  at  Schedule  A  here. 
I  recall  receiving  a  communication  from  Mr.  Channell 
recently,  I  think.   Some  kind  of  committee  on  Afghanistan. 
I  don't  even  know  whether  I  kept  it  or  threw  it  away. 

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no  02  02  1 

mikepaulus  1  !  There  might  be  something  in  here  on  another  Channell 

2  :|  organization  that  I  received  by  way  of  sort  of  a  regular 

3  mailing,  you  might  say,  a  fund-raising  type  of  thing,  but  I 

4  had  no  involvement.   There  might  be  something  in  the  files 

5  somewhere. 

6  j  Any  bank  in  Switzerland.   I  have  a  Swiss  bank 

7  account  which  I  have  had  for  years,  which  has  a  minor 

8  amount  of  money  in  it. 

9  !  MR.  FRYMAN:   With  respect  to  subparagraph  (o), 

10  j   we  are  not  requesting  production  of  all  tax  records  at  this 

I 

11  I   time. 

1 

12  I  THE  WITNESS:   As  far  as  I  know,  the  only 
1 

13  j   possible  exception  to  the  records  we  have  already  produced 

14  j   might  be  under  Schedule  A.   There  might  be  another  one  of 

15  j   the  Channell  organizations. 

16  j  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

17  0     Which  would  be  form  materials  from  another 

18  Channel/  organization;  is  that  correct? 

19  A     Yes.   And  I  am  not  even  sure  I  even  have  those 

20  still  in  my  file.   But  I'll  check. 

21  0     I  also  direct  your  attention  to  Appendix  A. 

22  A     Is  this  do  I  know  any  of  these  people? 


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0     The  subpoena  calls  for  materials  that  have 
anything  to  do  with  these  individuals  or  organizations. 

A     As  far  as  I  know,  I  don't  have  any  of  this 
material  other  than  what  I've  mentioned. 

Q     To  summarize,  the  group  of  documents  that  you 
have  produced  this  morning  includes  everything  called  for 
by  the  subpoena  other  than  your  diary,  telephone  toll 
records,  records  relating  to  a  personal  foreign  bank 
account,  and  some  form  materials  from  another  Channell 
organization;  is  that  correct? 

A     Yes. 

0     And  tax  records,  which  I  said  are  not  called 
for. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   Let  me  explain  one  other  thing  to 
you  on  the  record.   I  am  sure  you  are  going  to  get  hold  of 
a  copy  of  th6  diary  from  the  independent  prosecutor,  and 
you  are  going  to  find  one  corner  of  a  page  that  is  torn 
out,  that  had  some  names  on  it.   That  was  done  prior  to  its 
delivery  to  the  independent  prosecutor.   If  you  want  to  ask 
him  a  question  as  to  how  that  came  about,  you  are  welcome 
to  do  it  so  we  don't  have  to  have  another  trip  down  when 


you  discover  that 


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BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
Q     How  did  it  happen  that  the  corner  of  the  page 
was  torn  out  of  the  diary? 

A     That  is  the  corner  on  which  I  wrote  Oliver 
North's  name.   When  I  realized  the  secret  nature  of  his 
work,  I  tore  it  out  of  my  diary. 

0     What  did  you  do  with  it? 
A     Threw  it  away. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 
O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-A  for  identification  a  check 
for  $130,000,  dated  March  31,  1986. 

(O'Boyle  Deposition 
Exhibit  No.  2-A  marked 
^         for  identification.) 
(Document  handed  to  witness.) 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
Q     Mr.  O'Boyle,  is  that  the  check  that  you  gave  to 
Mr.  Channell  for  the  purchase  of  the  two  Maule  airplanes? 
A     Yes. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 
O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-B  for  identification  a  check 
for  $30,000,  dated  September  3  0.  1986. 


Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


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no    02    02 

.nikepaulus    1  |                                                                               (0 'Boyle   Deposition 

2  I                                                                                     Exhibit    No.    2-B  marked 

for   identification.) 
i 

4  (Document   handed   to  witness.) 

5  I  .BY  MR.    FRYMAN: 

6  0  Mr.  O'Boyle,  would  you  identify  Exhibit  2-B? 

7  A  That's  a  checl<  for  $30,000  which  I  later  gave  to 

8  !  the  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

1  • 

9  0  That  is  in  response  to  the  final  request  for 

10  funds  for  the  contras  that  you  described? 

11  A  Yes. 

12  MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 

13  O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-C  for  identification  a 

14  I  handwritten  note  and  a  phone  memo  slip. 
i 

15  (O'Boyle  Deposition 

16  Exhibit  No.  2-C  marked 

17  for  identification.) 

18  (Document  handed  to  witness.) 

19  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

20  0  Is  that  your  handwriting,  Mr.  O'Boyle? 

21  A  No. 

22  0  Whose  handwriting  is  that? 


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82 


I'm  not  sure.   Someone  in  my  office. 

Was  that  a  note  that  was  given  to  you? 

Yes,    it  was. 

Are  you  looking  at  the  phone  message  at  the 


Yes. 

What  is  the  material  at  the  top? 

It  says  "meet  Dan  Conrad  April  29th  at  the  2  pm 


A 

0 

A 

0 
moment? 

A 

0 

A 
shuttle." 

0     Is  the  material  at  the  top  on  a  separate  piece 
of  paper  from  the  phone  message  at  the  bottom? 

A     I  don't  know. 

(Witness  and  counsel  conferring.) 
MR.  NEWMAN:   We  will  have  to  check  this.   This 
was  Xeroxed  for  us  by  Mr.  0 'Boyle's  office.   We  don't  know 
if  the  secretary  in  doing  it  Xeroxed  two  pieces  of  paper 
together. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0     Do  you  recall  receiving  the  notes  which  are  at 
the  top  of  the  page? 

A     No.   They  look  like  notes  my  secretary  was 
making  of  telephone  communications  back  and  forth.   For 


,  Inc. 


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UNCLASSIFIED 


•  810  02  02  •!                                               83 

.rtikepaulus  1  i  example,  down  here  it  says  "okay  for  a  4  pm  meeting  on 

2  i  Tuesday,  the  29th."   It  looks  like  maybe  they  were 

3  arranging  that  meeting  that  was  held  subsequently  to  my 


4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 


luncheon  at  the  Union  League  Club. 

0     This  is  the  meeting  with  Colonel  North  in  his 
office  that  you  described? 

A     Yes . 

0  There  is  a  date  here  in  these  notes  of  4/29.  Do 
you  believe  that  April  29  was  the  date  of  your  meeting  "with 
Colonel  North? 

A     I  think  so.   I  think  it  was,  but  I  can't  be 
sure.   We  may  be  mixed  up  a  little  bit  on  the  dates.   I 


13  ;|  think  I  have  the  18th  as  the  luncheon,  and  then  some  time 


14 

15 
16 
17 
18 
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later  there  was  the  meeting  in  Colonel  North's  office.   I 
recall  it  as  a  few  days  later;  it  may  have  been  as  much  as 
ten  days  later. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 
0 'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-D  for  identification  a 
Mailgram  dated  April  7,  1986. 

/  (O'Boyle  Deposition 

Exhibit  No.  2-D  marked 


for  identification.) 


UNCIASSIFIEO 


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'10    02    02 

likepaulus    1  (Document   handed   to  witness.) 

2  '  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

3  I       0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  is  that  the  Mailgram  that  you 

4  I   described  earlier  in  your  testimony? 

5  j       A     Yes. 

6  j  MR.  FRYMAN:   I  ask  the  reporter  to  mark  as 

7  !   O'Boyle  Deposition  Exhibit  2-E  for  identification  a  group 

8  j   of  pages  headed  NEPL  Freedom  Fighters  TV  National  Spot 

9  !   Placement,  Second  Flight. 

10  (O'Boyle  Deposition 

11  Exhibit  No.  2-E  marked 

12  ;  for  identification. ) 

I 

13  I  (Document  handed  to  witness.) 

i 

14  I  BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

I 

15  I       0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  where  did  you  receive  that  material 

16  from? 

17  A     It  was  sent  to  me  by  NEPL.   It  may  actually  have 

18  been  conjunction  with  a  video  tape  of  some  of  the 

19  television  commercials  which  they  had  produced. 

20  0     What  did  you  understand  was  the  reason  for 

21  sending  you  that? 

22  A     To  demonstrate  to  me  that  they  were  in  fact 


iM?m. 


575 


P=}10  02  02 
mikepaulus  1 

2 

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I 

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22 


DNCUSSIFIEO 


85 


engaged  in  a  process  of  airing  these  television  commercials 
and  to  enlist  my  support. 

Q     Did  you  make  any  contributions  to  purchase 
television  commercials? 

A     No. 

Q     Mr.  O'Boyle,  I  would  ask  you  to  take  a  minute  to 
review  Deposition  Exhibit  2  and  tell  me  if  these  are  all 
materials  from  your  file  and  if  they  are  records  that  are 
what  they  purport  to  be,  i.e.,  that  they  are  letters  or' 
communications  as  indicated  in  the  particular  document. 

A     These  are  copies  of  my  files,  the  files  that 
have  been  subpoenaed. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Off  the  record. 
(Recess . ) 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Back  on  the  record. 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 

0     Mr.  O'Boyle,  you  mentioned  that  at  your  original 
meeting  at  the  Hay-Adams  you  met  with  a  number  of 
representatives  from  IBC,  International  Business 
Communications,  and  you  thought  that  they  might  be 
government  agents.  What  was  the  basis  for  that  speculation 


on  your  part? 


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A  I  didn't  speak  to  any  of  them  at  great  length, 
but  I  did  speak  to  a  couple  of  them,  and  they  didn't  seem 
like  businessmen  to  me. 

0     Can  you  be  specific? 

A      Not  that  I  quizzed  them  at  great  length,  but  if 
you  meet  someone  of  your  own  profession  and  background  you 
can  tell  whether  they  are  a  lawyer  or  a  doctor  or  they 
aren't,  especially  if  you  are  a  lawyer  or  doctor  yourself. 
These  didn't  appear  to  be  people  that  were  extremely 
experienced  in  the  management  of  companies  or  business 
affairs  or  economics.   It  was  just  a  vague  impression  that 
I  got.   I  don't  know  whether  it  is  conclusive  or  not,  but 
it  is  an  impression  that  I  got  and  it  seemed  to  fit  with 
the  idea  that  perhaps  this  entire  program  was  sponsored 
somehow  by  the  government,  or  the  government  was  involved 
in  this  program. 

0     Was  there  anything  said  by  anyone  at  that 
meeting  that  indicated  that  they  were  government  agents? 

A     No. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   I  have  no  further  questions. 


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87 


EXAMINATION 
BY  MR.  KAPLAN: 

0     I  am  going  to  take  you  back  to  March  and  the 
dinner  at  the  Hay-Adams  Hotel  during  which  Richard  Miller 
sat  next  to  you.   Can  you  describe  from  recollection  any 
conversation  that  you  had  with  Miller  during  that  dinner? 

A     As  I  recall,  it  was  a  fairly  social  kind  of 
conversation  but  with  political  overtones.   I  remember  we 
talked  about  the  desirability  of  the  anticommunist  effort, 
the  Reagan  Administration  in  general,  that  it  was  desirable 
to  eliminate  the  communists  or  get  rid  of  the  communists. 
That  sort  of  thing. 

I  remember  also  talking  to  him  about  that  while 
it  was  desirable  to  get  rid  of  the  communists  we  didn't 
want  to  be  in  the  position  where  we  were  supporting 
horrible  right  wing  dictators  either.   Just  kind  of  a 
political  discussion,  you  might  say. 

Q     Did  Miller  solicit  any  funds  from  you? 

A     No. 

0     Did  you  have  any  contact  with  Miller  after  that 
dinner  at  the  Hay-Adams? 


Ever? 


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10  02  02  ' 
likepaulus  1         0     Ever. 

2  I       A     I  ran  into  him  one  time  in  another  context, 

3  :  completely  different  context.   President  Aquino  from  the 

4  i  Philippines  was  visiting  New  York  and  addressed  the  United 

5  Nations  and  then  stopped  by  and  paid  a  courtesy  call  to  the 

6  !   Asia  Foundation  after  that.   I  was  present  at  this 

7  reception,  having  been  a  supporter  of  the  Asia  Society.   A 

8  brief  speech  and  a  reception  was  given  by  President  Aquino, 

9  and  Miller  was  there.   I  am  not  sure  I  remember  this 

10  correctly,  but  I  think  he  was  billed  as  a  State  Department 

11  ;   protocol  officer.   He  was  there  helping  sort  of  move  the 

12  crowds  past  President  Aquino,  because  we  all  lined  up  to 

13  i   shake  hands  with  President  Aquino.   He  was  standing  right 

14  ;   there,  kind  of  moving  people  past.   This  seem  to  confirm  in 
i 

15  !   my  mind  that  this  guy  really  works  for  the  State 

16  Department;  this  public  relations  thing,  that's  what  they 

17  !   all  say  in  Washington,  right? 

18  0     Do  you  recall  who  billed  him  as  a  State 

19  Department  protocol  person? 

20  A     I  think  it  was  in  the  program  of  President 

21  Aquino's  party.   There  was  a  program  that  listed  who  was  in 

22  I   her  party.   I  am  not  sure  that  that  was  his  title,  but  I 


mmm 

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2 

3 

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10 

11 

12  '. 
13 
14 
15 
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18 
19 
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21 
22 


""miFIB 


89 


think  that's  right.   And  I  said  hello  to  him.   I  said,  ".^h 
we  meet  again."   He  sort  of  recognized  me  and  said  hello. 
Or  I  think  he  recognized  me. 

0     Any  further  contact  with  Miller,  whether  in 
person  or  by  telephone  or  letter  or  otherwise? 

A     No. 

Q     When  were  you  first  told  that  NEPL  was  a  tax 
exempt  organization? 

A     I  don't  recall  the  exact  moment  at  which  I  was 
told  that.   It  was  some  time  in  March  or  April  of  1986. 

0     Would  it  have  been  in  one  of  your  phone 
solicitations  from  Jane  McLaughlin? 

A     It  may  have  been.   I  think  in  this  pile  of 
material  here  there  is  a  501(c)(3)  certification  from  the 
IRS. 

0     Who  would  have  provided  you  with  that 
certification? 

A     NEPL.   They  sent  a  package  of  material  at  some 
point  to  me,  and  their  tax  exempt  status  was  outlined 
there. 

0     Did  anyone  tell  you  that  NEPL  was  a  tax  exempt 
organization,  rather  than  sending  you  the  certification? 


Wl£^m 


Inc 


580 


i/Ntusjm 


oqiO  02  02     1  -"-wBt  11.1/  90 

...ikepaulus  1  i       A     That  was  my  understanding.   I  don't  remember 

2  j  exactly  if  anyone  actually  said  that  or  not. 

3  0     Were  you  told  that  your  contributions  would  be 

4  deductible? 
i 

51       A     I  understood  that  they  would  be. 

6  I       0     How  did  you  arrive  at  that  understanding? 

I 

7  i       A     Because  by  the  time  I  made  the  contribution  it 

8  was  clear  to  me  that  this  was  a  tax  exempt  organization  and 

9  I  that  it  would  be  a  deductible  contribution. 
i         ;. 

10  0     Why  did  you  choose  to  hand  deliver  your  $130,000 

11  contribution  to  Mr.  Channell  rather  than  send  it  Federal 

12  Express  to  his  home? 

13  A     I  was  concerned  about  security.   I  felt  this  was 

I 

14  an  extremely  secret  operation,  and  that  not  only  agencies 

15  of  the  United  States  Government,  but  foreign  agencies, 

16  anybody,  the  press,  the  Democrats,  everybody  would  be 

17  interested  in  this  kind  of  a  thing.   It  was  quite 

18  conceivable  that  the  phones  were  tapped.   So  I  made  no 

19  appointment.   I  just  showed  up. 

20  0     It  was  at  your  own  instance? 

21  A     Yes. 

22  Q     During  your  luncheon  in  mid-April  with 


uiussra.,.. 


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91 


Mr.  Channell  and  Mr.  Conrad  in  New  York,  you  mentioned 
earlier  that  you  stated  to  them  a  concern  that  you  had 
about  the  legality  of  NEPL's  work.   What  was  their 
response? 

A     I  believe  Mr.  Channell  said  don't  worry  about 
it,  this  has  been  set  up  by  lawyers  who  are  very  close  to 
the  Administration.   Or  maybe  it  was  even  White  House 
lawyers.   Something  like  that.   I  forget  the  exact 
arrangement  he  described.   It  goes  into  NEPL,  goes  into 
another  corporation  which  has  a  contract  with  another 
corporation  overseas  and  it  can  never  be  traced.   That  was 
his  response. 

0     Did  he  mention  what  those  other  corporations 
were? 

A     No. 

0     Did  he  mention  more  specifically  from  whom  they 
received  their  legal  advice? 

A     No. 

0     Why  did  you  have  a  background  check  done  into 
NEPL  and  Mr.  Channell? 

A     I  wanted  to  make  sure  that  he  was  legitimate, 
that  he  was  who  he  said  he  was, 


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0     Is  it  routine  for  you  to  have  background  checks 
done  on  people  who  solicit  you  for  money? 

A     Not  always,  but  sometimes.   Business  partners  or 
people  I  might  be  involved  in  business  with  who  I  might 
have  some  concern  about,  or  perhaps  people  who  are  asking 
for  money.   Sometimes  I  do  take  steps  to  check  them  out. 

0     Do  you  recall  when  you  contracted  for  the 
background  check  on  Channell? 

A     There  is  a  letter  here.   I  think  was  early 
April.   Shortly  after  I  made  the  contribution. 

0     Was  there  anything  particular  about  Channell 
that  caused  you  to  have  a  background  check  contracted  for 
him? 

A  The  whole  thing  was  an  unusual  situation,  a 
secret  situation.  I  felt  somewhat  concerned  about  the 
whole  thing.   That's  what  drove  me  to  do  it. 

0     You  mentioned  earlier  in  your  second  meeting 
with  Colonel  North  he  basically  withdrew  the  request  of  the 
need  for  Blowpipes,  saying  that  the  Blowpipes  were  no 
longer  available.   If  my  memory  serves  me  right,  you 
mentioned  that^^^^^^H  was  the  country  to  which  he  had 
referred.   Could  the  country  have  beer 


RS.  InC 


Atf-FeDER-AL 


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A     It  might  have  been. 

0     Does  that  refresh  your  recollection  as  to  what 
country  North  might  have  referred  to? 

A     I  have  been  saying  ^^^^^^^H  but  it  may  have 
I  am  not  quite  clear.   As  I  recall,  it  was  a 
[country.   I  may  be  mistaken.   It  may  have 


been 


MR.  KAPLAN:   I  have  no  further  questions. 
EXAMINATION 

BY  MR.  BUCK: 

You  mentioned  at  the  beginning  of  the  deposition 
a  few  hours  ago  that  you  were  independently  wealthy.   Could 
you  put  sort  of  a  general  figure  on  that  independent 
wealth? 

MR.  NEWMAN:   I  am  not  sure  that  that  is  within 
the  scope  of  your  examination.   I  have  other  problems  with 
that  question  related  to  a  situation  extant  in  New  York, 
and  I  am  going  to  direct  him  not  to  answer.   I  am  going  to 
seek  a  ruling  on  that,  because  I  think  it  is  outside  the 
scope  of  this  examination. 

BY  MR.  BUCK: 
0     Did  Mr.  Channell  have  any  idea  of  your  general 


UNCLASSIFIED 

Ace-Ffdcr.al  Reporters,  inc. 


584 


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wealth? 

A     Before  he  met  me? 

0     Before  he  met  you.   You  mentioned  that 
Mr.  Ferguson  referred  your  name  to  Mr.  Channell. 

A     I  don't  know  whether  he  did  or  not. 

0     There  were  no  indications  to  you  that  he  did 


have? 


No. 


MR.  BUCK:   The  only  reason  I  asked  that  question 
is  because  Mr.  Channell  seemed  to  pursue  Mr.  0 'Boyle. 

MR.  NEWMAN:   I  understand.   I  am  not  finding 
fault,  but  it  tangentially  involves  something  else  we  have 
pending  in  the  city  that  I  am  concerned  about. 

BY  MR.  BUCK: 
Q     Were  you  at  all  suspicious  about  the  expensive 
tastes  of  the  Channell  organization.   You  were  picked  up,  I 
believe,  at  the  airport  by  a  limousine  and  taken  to  the 
Hay-Adams  Hotel.   Did  that  make  you  at  all  suspicious  that 
a  charitable  organization  would  have  tastes  like  that? 

A     I  wondered  a  little  bit  about  it,  but  then  I 
thought  that  this  was  sort  of  a  stylistic  type  thing  that 
Mr.  Channel!  was  adopting  to  cultivate  wealthy  people. 


Inc. 


Ace-Federa 


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0     Did  Colonel  North  ever  ask  you  for  a 
contribution  at  any  point? 

A      No. 

Q      I  take  it  if  he  never  asked  you  for  a 
contribution  he  never  directed  to  what  organization  you 
should  contribute  money. 

A     That's  right.   As  a  matter  of  fact,  he  said  on 
more  than  one  occasion  that  he  could  not  ask  for  money, 
that  he  was  not  there  to  ask  for  money. 

0     Did  you  take  a  charitable  deduction  on  your 
income  taxes  for  the  donations  that  you  made  to  the 
Channell  organizations? 

MR.  NEWMAN:   His  tax  return  for  '86  is  in 
extension. 

BY  MR.  BUCK: 

0     Do  you  plan  on  taking  a  charitable  deduction? 

A     No. 

0     Why  is  it  that  you  will  not  claim  a  deduction? 

A     Upon  advice  of  counsel. 

0     I  think  you  mentioned  before  that  you  were 
assured  the  $130,000  that  you  donated  in  actuality  did 
purchase  two  Maule  airplanes. 


UNWSm 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


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A  Yes. 

0  But   you    received    no   other   evidence   of    that    from 

Mr.    Channell? 

A  That's   correct. 

0  If    I    told   you   that    that    $130,000    never  purchased 

those   two  airplanes,    would   you   be   surprised? 

A  Yes. 

0     You  mentioned  several  stories  that  Colonel  North 
told  you  over  a  period  of  time,  examples  of  Colonel  North 
being  involved  in  capturing  drug  smugglers  and  various 
activities  like  that.   Did  you  have  a  feeling  that  Colonel 
North  was  exaggerating  at  any  point  in  time? 

A     No. 

0     Did  you  feel  that  he  could  tell  a  story?  Not 
necessarily  make  up  the  complete  story,  but  add  to  the 
story  some  way. 

A     No.   I  didn't  feel  he  was  embellishing  the 


story. 


concluded . ) 


MR.  BUCK:   I  have  no  further  questions. 
MR.  FRYMAN:   I  have  no  further  questions. 
MR.  KAPLAN:   No  further  questions. 
(Whereupon  at  1:25  p.m.  the  deposition  was 

ONCLASSIFIED 

Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 


587 


UNCLASSIFIED 


CEl^TIFICATE  OF  JJOTARY  PUBLIC  S  REPORTER 
I,  Michael  G.  Paulus,  the  officer  before  whom  the 
foregoins  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby  certify  that  the 
witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the  foregoing  deposition 
was  duly  ^worn  by  me;  that  the  testimony  of  said  witness  was 
taken  in  shorthand  and  thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by 
me  or  under  my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a  true 
record  of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am 
neither  counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by  any  of  the 
parties  to  the  action  in  which  this  deposition  was  taken; 
and  further,  that  I  am  not  a  relative  or  employee  of  any 
attorney  or  counsel  employed  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor 
financially  or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcome  of  the 
action . 


My  Commission  Expires 
February  29,  1992 


Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


%?^ 


RiriTiLif  v.\  l.p.\oi» 


588 


UNCLASSSrItD 


RODERT  H  MiCHF.L 
L'mtpd  ST.vns  («s(.ki  s^ 


August    IS,    1986 


Mr,   Spitz  Channell,   President 
The  National  Endowment  of  the 

Preservation  of  Liberty 
305  4th  Street.   N.E. 
Washington,   D.   C.   20002 

Dear  Spitz: 

I  just  want  to  thank  you  for  the  contributions  you 
made  to  our  efforts  in  the  House  on  behalf  of  Nicara- 
guan  freedom-fighters. 

Obviously,   no  issue  of  this  high  degree  of  contro- 
versy can  be  won  in  the  House  without  help  from  people 
like  you. 

We  all  appreciate  your  commitment  to  the  cause  of 
freedom. 


RHM:lpj 


irt  H.    Michel 
Republican  Leader 


IIIIIIIHIIM  IK  I  u    lum,!^ 

by  K  Johnson.  National  Security  Council 


•t. 


^HCl^SS\Tlt« 


589 


ȣ'.;-:iV  WHIP 
«U.£S  CCVMirTEE 


UNCLASSJf;£D 


ConarcU£f  of  tfje  Wihitch  ^tatti' 
^)ouit  of  J\eprc£fen(atibea     ' 
HIasfjingfon,  J3C  20515 


July  24.  1986 


Mr.  Spitz  Channell,  President 
The  National  Endowment  for  the 

Preservation  of  Liberty 
305  -  4th  Street,  NE 
Washington,  D.C.  20002 

Dear  Spitz: 

The  reception  on  Monday  night  was  obviously  a  ereac 
thar!o™Hr  /"".'"'^  representative  of  the  various  fo'rce 
that  combined  to  give  us  the  Contra  Aid  victory  on  June  25 

Without  the  efforts  of  the  National  Endowment  for 
the  Preservation  of  Liberty  and  your  related  organizations 
this  victory  would  have  been  very  unllkelv    ^B-niza t ion s , 

VniMro'.r'r^''  •^^'  •  dim:nLo„"'th:j^i3  L°v:iu:bi:^trL" 

and  the  other  Congressional  leaders. 


Again,  thanks  for  your  help  and  I  look  forward  to 
.ur  working  together  in  the  future.   With  warmest  best  wl 


shes  , 


"o"ia:!i  OLiinjjifuj/fieleased  on    Ul-CgfePS 
""  '  "  r'  r  fl   11?ii 

Dv  f\  Joiinson.  National  Secutily  Council 


TL:  sw 


Sincerely    yours , 


^"^^^M^^j 


BNeiASStFiED 


CGV-'";;  C-.  ARr.'EO  SERVICES 
COM'.'  TT£E  C.  SMALL  BUSINESS 


590 


uMCLASS»F;ta 


J^ouit  of  B^epre^entatibed 

8ZIas(t)ington.  1B€  20515 

August    26,     1986 


Mr.    Carl    Russell    Channell 

National    Endowment    For    The    Preservation    of    Liberty 

305    Fourth    Street 

Suite    1000 

Washington,  D.C.  20002 

Dear  Mr.  Channell: 

I  am  writing  to  extend  my  most  sincere  congratulations  to  the 
National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

Over  the  past  8  months,  your  program  entitled,  "Central 
American  Freedom  Program,"  has  contributed  in  a  significant  way  to 
the  progress  we  have  made  in  Nicaragua. 

We  are  involved  not  only  in  a  fight  to  keep  our  hemisphere 
free,  but  also  in  a  battle  for  the  support  of  the  American  public. 
In  both  arenas,  our  opponents  are  shrewd  and  relentless. 

We  must  all  be  alert  to  the  need  for  continued  vigilance.   It 
is  not  enough  that  we  continue  to  seek  the  support  of  our 
countrymen  in  this  important  endeavor.   We  must  labor  to  make  sure 
that  the  way  we  conduct  this  fight  continues  to  be  worthy  of  their 
support.   Any  mistake  that  we  make  will  be  amplified  by  our 
skillfull  adversaries. 

I  pledge  my  continued  efforts  in  this  important  battle  to 
keep  our  hemisphere  free,  and  congratulate  you  again  for  the 
outstanding  work  done  by  your  fine  organization. 


•"iiiulli  Oi.Uujjifed/Released  on  JlF^:^6 
"*'"'  I  III  iiiinn  nl  C  0    IJOCC 
oy  K  Johnson,  National  Security  Council 


Member   of    Corxq/ass 


(^ 


<25  CANNON  OFFICE  8LDC   .WASHINGTON   OC  -iJOJl  2JS-5901  -TOLL  FREE  |0A|  i -SnO-JIJ-SCCT 


591 


ArFROPRiATlCNS  CCI" 


inssfftw 


ton^xtei  of  tf)e  ^niteb  ^tatti 
Jl^ouit  of  i^epresfentatibed 

Hiftiiniiton.  fiC  20515 
Au^st  4,    1986 


Mr.    Spitz  Channel! 

President 

National  Endowment  for  the 

Preservation  of  Liberty 
305  4th   Street,    N.E. 
Washington,   DC.    20002 

Dear  Spitz: 

When  your  Central  American  Freedom  Program  began  to  unfold  it  was  clear 
that  your  organization  had  researched  the  issue  well  and  was  ready  to  help 
our  cause  to  ultimate  victory. 

The  television  messages  that  your  organization  produced  and  the 
excellent  coordination  you  provided  for  Nicaraguan  leaders  was  an  effective 
method  for  educating  the  public.     We  have  come  a  very  long  way  from  the  days 
of  small  margins  of  victory  for  tiny  amounts  of  aid  to  the  Freedom  Fighters. 
Certainly,   without  your  support  the  public  would  have  been  ignorant  of  the 
issues  facing  the  Congress. 

I  want  to  congratulate  you  on  a  first  class  effort  and  to  encourage  you 
to  continue  to  involve  yourself  in  the  foreign  policy  arena  so  that  we  can 
continue  to  win  victories  like  the  one  on  June  25th. 


Siacerely , 


-f^iimii  OalujijilKKl/Released  onJ±^3S6 

mtin  pfoiijiuiu  111  CO   mji 

by  K  Johnson.  Naljonal  Secur.ry  Council 


RLL:jb 


/bOBERT  L.    LIVINGSTON 
Member  of  Congress 


592 


UNCLASSiriED 

NATIONAL  SECURITY  COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON   O  C     2050e 


May  2,  1986 


Dear  Bill: 

Here  is  the  situation  today.   Congressman  Bob  Michel,  Republican 
Leader  of  the  House  of  Representatives,  persuaded  a  majority  of 
the  House  to  vote  overwhelmingly  for  a  bill  which  got  the 
President's  Freedom  Fighter  package  away  from  being  included  as  a 
supplement  to  a  huge  Democrat-sponsored  spending  bill. 

This  spending  bill,  if  passed,  faces  an  almost  certain  veto  by 
President  Reagan.   Michel's  adroit  leadership  has  now  effectively 
saved  the  Freedom  Fighter  aid  bill,  intact,  for  what  we  hope  will 
be  a  final  vote  during  the  week  of  June  9.   He  is  determined  to 
emerge  victorious,  even  if  he  must  doggedly  wear  down  the 
opposition. 

You  are  obviously  supporting  the  President  for  the  long  term  as 
well.   I  want  to  thank  you  so  very  much  for  all  you  are  doing  to 
support  President  Reagan  and  to  help  assure  a  victory  for  freedom 
in  Central  America. 

We  are  entering  a  critical  period  now  in  the  legislative 
struggle.   The  President  is  chipping  away  at  the  opposition  and 
gaining  solid  momentum  for  a  clear  victory  in  the  next  three 
weeks.   This  is  due  in  no  small  way  to  your  support  of  the 
ongoing  Central  American  Freedom  Program  of  the  National 
Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

I  hope  you  will  remain  steadfast  with  the  President  as  he  leads 
this  effort.   I  know  personally  that  he  values  your  help  very 
much.   We  must  continue  to  work  together  for  the  success  of  the 
President's  policy.   It's  been  a  long  struggle  --  we're  almost 
there.   Please  maintain  your  invaluable,  strong  support. 


undef  provisions  ol  E  0,  12356 
by  K.  Johnson,  National  Secunly  Council 


Sincerely, 

Oliver  L.  North 
Deputy  Director, 
Political-Military  Affairs 


Mr.  William  B.  O'Boyle 
630  Fifth  Avenue 
Suite  863 
New  York,  NY   10111 


€^ 


UNCLASStFtEd 


593 


NATIONAL  SECURITY  COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON   OC     20S06 


July  23,  1986 


Dear  Mr.  O'Boyle: 

America  is  now  at  the  verge  of  answering 
Soviets  laid  down  in  Nicaragua.  When  the 
need  of  support  and  sustained  faith  in  th 
helped  to  provide  both.  The  struggle  for 
must  first  be  won  in  the  halls  of  Congres 
dedication  and  resolve  to  stay  with  the  P 
campaign,  neither  victory  would  be  possib 
approves  the  aid,  we  will  finally  be  at  a 
truly  make  a  contribution  to  a  democratic 


the  challenge  the 
President  was  most  in 

is  leadership,  you 
freedom  in  Nicaragua 
Without  your 

resident  in  this  long 

le.   Once  the  Senate 
point  where  we  can 
outcome  in  Nicaragua. 


All  Americans  owe  you  a  great  debt.   As  men  who  have  lived 
through  combat  know,  without  a  sustained  level  of  support,  those 
in  the  front  lines  can  accomplish  nothing.   Your  perseverance  in 
the  cause  of  freedom  and  President  Reagan's  dream  for  a  free 
Nicaragua  were  the  sustaining  measure  that  will  carry  us  that 
last  difficult  mile. 

For  your  patriotism,  courage,  and  dedication,  thank  you. 

Sincerely, 


Oliver  L.  North 
Deputy  Director 
Political-Military  Affairs 


fdiliijll^  Di-lajjilnU/Released  on_!iM6_88 
miiii  lUiiiiiM  it  CO   lOQgS 

by  K  Johnson,  National  Sccunty  Council 


Mr.  William  B.  O'Boyle 

630  Fifth  Avenue,  Suite  863 

New  York,  NY   10111 


UNCLASSIFIED 


594 


GH0LA3S!F:ED 


I^^Declassitiel'Released  on  Itf^tiBi 

under  ofovisions  ol  £  0  12355 
by  K.  Johnson.  National  Secunry  Council 


.^^5> 


iiNCLASSIFSED^  ^ 


yV>OkJV*^-/ 


595 


LNOLASSIFBED 


"Since  the  down  of  the  nuclear 
age,  every  American  President 
has  sought  to  limit  and  end 
the  dangerous  competition 
in  nuclear  arms.  I  have 
no  higher  priority  than 
to  finally  realize 
that  dream . . ." 


NOLASSIFIED  ^ 


596 


597 


iaiiaissiH£D__ 


THE  WHITE  HOLSE 

WASHINGTON 

December  18,  1985 


Dear  Spitz: 

I  want  to  thank  you  for  the  fine  series  of  television 
messai^es  you  broadcast  three  weeks  before  we  left  for 
Geneva.     "Morning  of  Peace"  captured  the  true  spirit  of 
my  dream,  our  Strategic  Defense  Initiative,  a  shield  to 
protect  our  children  and  their  children  from  the  threat 
of  nuclear  war.     I  firmly  believe  that  we  can  achieve 
this  goal  and  end  the  insanity  of  the  arms  race. 

Your  televised  messages  and  the  steadfast  support  in  a 
variety  of  foreign  policy  areas  of  the  American 
Conservative  Trust  means  a  great  deal  to  me.     Please 
keep  up  the  good  work.     With  your  continued  help  I 
know  we  can  succeed  for  the  next  generation,  and  for 
all  the  generations  to  come.     Nancy  Joins  me  in  wishing 
you  and  your  associates  all  the  joys  of  the  Season. 
God  bless  you. 

Sincerely , 


4\<jv«.vAflL  r  ^^^i^.^ 


Mr.  Carl  Russell  Channell 

President 

The  American  Conservative  Trust 

305  Fourth  Street,  N.B. 

Washington,   D.C.     20002 


UNCLASSIFIED 


598 


GNCLASSIF'lED 


The  Historic 
opportunity 
to  Strengtiien 
American 
Security 


STRATEGIC 

DEFENSE 

INITIATIVE 


P 

JL  reside 


.resident  Reagans  Strategic  Defense 
initiative  (SD!)  is  the  most  significant  strategic 
development  in  the  history  of  U.S.  -  Soviet  relations 
since  the  acquisition  of  the  atomic  bomb  by  the 
Soviet  Union,  if  allowed  to  be  fully  developed,  it 
will  greatly  enhance  America's  security.  Equally 
important,  it  will  offer  the  superpowers  a  dramatic 
opportunity  to  establish  a  lasting  peace  by  render- 
ing nuclear  weapons  obsolete. 

The  Congress,  however,  has  been  slow  to 
realize  the  opportunity  inherent  in  a  fully  funded, 
on-time  SDI.  It  has  provided  only  about  60  per- 
cent of  the  President's  funding  request  for  SDI 
research  and  development  in  the  past  three  years 
Thus,  the  program  at  current  funding  levels  will  be 
consciously  delayed  and  drawn  out.  Timing  is 
important.  The  Soviets,  who  began  their  own 
strategic  defense  efforts  nearly  two  decades  ago. 
are  determined  to  deploy  their  own  system  and 
are  accelerating  their  development  of  new  offen- 
sive and  defensive  strategic  systems  while  the 
United  States  lags. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


599 


UNCLASSIFIED 


".  .  .  every 
President-has 
dreamt  of 
leauing  the 
world  a  safer 
place  than  he 
found  it.  I 
pledge  to  you. 
my  goal— and  I 
consider  it  a 
sacred  trust- 
will  be  to  make 
progress 
toward  arms 
reduction  in 
every  one  of 
the  several 
negotiations 
now 
underway." 

President  Reagan  s  Remarks 
to  the  Los  .\ngeles  world 
.\ffairs  Council. 
March  31.1  983 


Soviet  Fear 
of  American 
Space 
Advancement 


ihe 


he  impressive 
enhancement  of  American 
defenses  under  the  Reagan 
Administration  and  the  pro- 
mise of  a  Strategic  Defense 
program  are  fundamentally 
responsible  for  having 
brought  the  Soviets  to  the 
Geneva  summit  last 
November 

Until  last  year  the 
Soviets  had  little  motivation 
to  negotiate  on  nuclear 
weapons  and  other  Issues 
in  fact,  after  the  Reagan 
Administration  had  spent 
months  trying  to  sit  down 
with  them,  the  Soviet 
negotiators  abruptly  walked 
out  of  talks  convened  in 
Geneva  in  i  983  The  much- 
improved  US  defense  pos- 
ture, the  Presidents  March 
1  983  SDl  speech.  Ronald 
Reagan  s  re-election  in 
1  984  and  .\merican 
technological  superiority  in 
space  research  and  explora- 
tion were  compelling  factors 
in  bringing  Moscow  to  the 
conference  table  late  last 
year 

Finally,  the  rise  of  a 
relatively  youthful,  attractive 
Russian  leader.  Gorbachev, 
gave  the  political  leaders  of 
the  Soviet  Union  what  they 
perceived  as  a  strong  boost 


vis-a-vis  the  international 
media  and  world  public       f 
opinion,  .\fter  years  of  frosty 
relations  the  time  had  come 
to  project  a  moderate  pro- 
peace  image  in  order  to 
forestall  American  advances 
and  lull  .^merlcan  allies  into 
strategic  lethargy 

Lagging  in  technology-, 
economic  \  iialiry.  and  so- 
phistication and  pressed  to 
commit  resources  else- 
where, the  Soviet  Union  fears 
the  .American  SDI.  Such  a 
system  and  its  foreign 
policy  power  implications 
will  be  able  to  neutralize  the 
threat  of  the  massive  Sov  let 
nuclear  arsenal. 

Brlefl>'.  a  deplov  ed 
strategic  defense  would  pre- 
vent nearly  all  of  the 
U  S.S  R  s  iCB.Ms  from  reach- 
ing iheir  targets  in  the  United 
States  This  means  that  a 
successful  Sov  let  first  strike 
capabilitv-  would  be 
eliminated  .And  in  the  event 
of  nuclear  war.  the  U.S.. 
although  potentially  hurl, 
could  retaliate  massively 
and  decisively  Retaliation. 
however,  is  not  the  objec- 
tive Rather,  it  is  to  make 
nuclear  weapons  useless 
by  assuring  that  they  would 
never  reach  their  targets 


UNCUSSIF-a 


600 


iNCLASSIFJEO 


enable  to  deliver  a  nuclear 
blow  to  the  united  States, 
the  Soviet  Lnion  would  see 
Its  power  significantly 
reduced 

Inability  to  maintain 
the  credible  (successful  and 
effective)  destructi\e  threat 
of  its  arsenal  necessarily 
weakens  the  SoMei  power 
intimidation  position  visa- 
vis  the  L'niied  States  and  the 
rest  of  the  world.  A  common 
thread  of  Soviet  foreign 
policy  is  to  threaten  to  rain 
down  awesome  nuclear 
destruction  on  nations  allied 
with  the  C  S  which  the 
So\iets  wish  to  influence 
This  IS  naked  nuclear 
intimidation.  Successi^■e 
Soviet  leaders  have  raised 
the  threat  Gorbachev  used 
It  last  December  in  a  letter  to 
the  Greater  London  City 
Council  in  an  ob\ious 


attempt  to  influence  British 
decisions  on  defense  policy 
for  1  986 

A  fully  deployed 
.\merican  Strategic  Defense 
will  present  the  Soviets  with 
a  new  reality,  one  which  will 
require  more  acceptable 
and  necessarily  more 
peaceful  behav  ior  on  the 
part  of  the  Soviet  union  for 
decades  to  come. 

The  Soviet  union 
failed  to  win  concessions  on 
SDl  in  Geneva.  But  it  ex- 
pended tens  of  millions  of 
dollars  in  the  months  lead- 
ing up  to  the  Summit  In 
attempting  to  shape 
European  and  American 
public  opinion  against  SDl. 
So  crucial  is  SDls  failure  to 
Soviet  strategy  that  the 
Russians  ha^  e  continued  to 
use  their  vast  resources  in  a 
propaganda  and  disinfor- 


"The  Soviet  Union  has  military 
superiority  over  the  United  States. 
Henceforth,  the  United  States  ivill 
be  threatened.  It  had  better  get 
used  to  it." 

Marshal  .Nikola/  v  Ogarkou. 
Chief  of  the  Soviet  General  Staff 


mation  struggle  against  the 
Reagan  .\dministration  s 
research  and  development 
program  .^lthough  other 
reasons  have  been  given, 
the  So\iet  delay  in  agreeing 
on  a  summit  in  the  united 
States  is  designed  to  gi\e 
the  Russians  more  time  for 
their  efforts  to  weaken  the 
Presidents  SDl  Also.  the\ 
may  attempt  to  make  it  an 
election  issue  this  fall. 

Funhermore.  Gor- 
bachevs  Januar\  and 
March  proposals,  made  in 
public  speeches  and  not 
presented  officially  to  the 
US.  while  welcome,  are 
more  than  mere  proposals 
They  are  propaganda  effons 
to  project  the  new-  Soviet 
leadership  as  peacemakers, 
as  the  reasonable,  sincere 
opposites  of  a  belligerent 
.\merica  They  seek  to  lull 
European  and  .^merlcan 
public  opinion  into  believing 
that  SDl  IS  no  longer 
necessary,  given  Soviet 
good  faith  and  the  new. 
more  reasonable  leader- 
ship. In  other  words,  the 
Soviets  will  do  with  pro- 
paganda and  soft  sell 
targeted  on  public  opinion 
what  they  cannot  do  at  the 
negotiating  table 


LNCLASSIFl'ED 


601 


[:nclassifif!il 


Evidence  of  such 
efforts  were  the  multi-page 
acl^■ertlsemenls  the  Soviet 
government  placed  on 
March  2  I  in  the  Washington 
Post,  the  Seiv  York  Times. 
the  Los  Angeles  Times  and 
LSA  Today  Costing  nearly 
a  quarter  of  a  million  dollars, 
the  ads  depicted  the 
Russians  as  responding 
defensiv  ely  to  threatened 
nuclear  attack  from  the 
United  States  They  cited 
SDl  as  the  planned 
nuclearization  of  space  and 
an  escalation  of  the  arms 
race 

Bui  Moscovv  has  done 
much  more,  from  funding 
anil- nuclear  movements 
and  organizing  international 
conferences  lo  manipulating 
the  media  in  Geneva  That 
ihey  have  succeeded  is  evi- 
dent in  the  fact  that  the 
majority  of  American  media 
commeniaiors  at  the  time 
indicated  thai  lo  accomplish 
something  at  Geneva  the 
President  had  to  gi\e  con- 
cessions on  SDl  He  did  not, 
however,  give  in  .\nd  his 
steadfastness  illustrates  his 
belief  that  SDl  is  so  critically 
imponani  to  U  S  security 


The  Vast  SoN'ict 
Campaign  to 
Capture 
American 
Public  Support 


Ma 


,ake  no  mistake 
about  it.  The  Soviets 
genuinely  fear  a  completed 
American  Strategic  Defense. 
But  that  fear  does  not  con- 
cern their  territorial  safety. 
Rather,  that  fear  concerns 
their  continued  ability  to  use 
the  threat  of  nuclear 
annihilation  to  intimidate 
and  blackmail  other  nations 
into  submission  or  admis- 
sion of  Soviet  supremacy 

With  dramatic  full-page 
advertisements  in  major 
newspapers,  scores  of 
television  interviews,  books, 
articles,  front  organizations 
and  governmental  pro- 


paganda efforts,  the  So\  lets 
are  spending  millions  of 
dollars  to  prevent  SDl  from 
going  forward  as  the  Presi- 
dent desires,  seuer  have  the 
Soviets  icanted  so  des- 
perately to  block  an 
American  defense  program 
They  understand  well  the 
influence  of  .\merican 
public  opinion  on  govern- 
ment policy. 

Although  recent 
surveys  indicate  that 
Americans  favor  a  workable 
alternative  to  mutual 
assured  destruction  (.vt\Di. 
anti-nuclear  interest  groups 
have  largely  framed  the  SDl 


"The  defense  policy  of  the  United 
States  is  based  on  a  simple 
premise:  The  United  States  does 
not  start  fights.  We  luill  never  be 
an  aggressor  we  maintain  our 
strength  in  order  to  deter  and 
defend  against  aggression— to 
preserve  freedom  and  peace." 

Presidents  Address  to  the 
Sation.  March  23.  I  983 


imXM^'B 


602 


UNCLASSIFIED 


debate  and  have  suc- 
ceeded in  distorting  public 
perceptions  of  what  has 
lamentably  become  well 
known  as   star  wars."  Here 
the  emphasis  Is  ivar—to  the 
delight  of  the  Soviets' 

The  Soviets  are 
bolstered  in  their  effons  by 
those  in  America  who.  for 
many  reasons,  oppose  SDl. 
The  opposition  uses  seven 
key  arguments: 
SDl  will  never  work; 
SDl  means  the  militarization 
of  outer  space: 
SDl  escalates  the  arms  race; 
SDl  research  could  go  on 
IndefiniteK': 
SDl  costs  too  much: 
SDl  is  nuclear; 
SDl  \  iolates  the  ,\ntiBallisilc 
.Missile  Treaty 

These  arguments, 
combined  with  public  and 


legislative  concern  about 
balancing  the  budget, 
resulted  in  congressional 
funding  of  only  60  percent 
of  what  the  President 
requested  for  the  first  stages 
of  SDl  research  and 
development.  Since  that 
time.  Congress  has  passed 
the  Gramm-Rudman- 
Hollings  budget  bill 
However,  the  legislative 
calendar  now  provides  a 
window  to  secure  full  fund- 
ing for  the  Presidents  pack- 
age to  bring  the  program  s 
timetable  up  to  date,  we 
must  use  this  window  of 
opponunity  to  dramatically 
strengthen  Americas  securi- 
ty The  Soviets  are  deter- 
mined to  complete  their 
space  defense  first.  The 
Presidents  dream  must  be 
our  goal— and  now 


"It  is  not  an  impossible  dream 
tliat  we  can  begin  to  reduce 
nuclear  arsenals,  reduce  the  risk 
of  war.  and  build  a  solid 
foundation  for  peace." 

Presidents  Address  to  the 
Sation.  \ovember  1 4.  1  985 


"While  arms 
control  can 
potentially 
play  a  role  in 
enhancing  our 
security  and 
bringing  about 
a  more  stable 
strategic 
relationship, 
what  we  are 
able  and 
willing  to  do 
for  ourselves 
is  far  more 
important:  it 
provides  the 
necessary 
foundation 
on  which 
deterrence  and 
arms  control 
must  rest." 

Paul  H.  Sitze.  Special  .\duisor 
to  the  President  and 
Secretary  of  State  on  Arms 
Control  Matters. 
February  4.  1 986 


nN(^i  assiFPEn 


603 


CiNClilSJSIFBED 


Objectixes 


G 


i\  en  the  high 
moral  imperaiiv  e  of 
Siraiegic  Defense  for  our 
long-term  securit\-  and  pos- 
sible peace,  the  National 
Endowment  for  the  Preser- 
vation of  Libenv  belie\  es 
that  the  current  goal  of 
Strategic  Defense  must  be 
realized  — the  sooner  the  bet- 
ter To  help  educate  and 
inform  Americans  about  the 
nature  of  the  Strategic 
Defense  concept,  the 
Endowment  is  conducting  a 
multi-faceted  public  educa- 
tion and  information  pro- 
gram using  a  combination 
of  media  and  press 
activities  in  order  lo; 


( 1 1  reveal  and  counter 
So\iei  disinformation 
and  other  untruthful 
information; 

i2i  educate  the  public  about 
the  true  significance  and 
role  of  the  Strategic 
Defense  initiative  to 
.\merlca  s  military'  and 
alliance  security; 

i3)  measure,  describe  and 
publicize  public  attitudes 
on  the  Strategic  Defense 
initiative; 

(4)  study  and  report  the 
impact  of  the  public  s 
views  on  the  Strategic 
Defense  initiative  in 
selected  areas  around 
the  country 


"Winston  Churchill  in  negotiating 
with  the  Soviets,  observed  that 
they  respect  only  strength  and 
resolve  in  their  dealings  with 
other  notions.  That's  why  we've 
moved  to  reconstruct  our 
notional  defenses.  We  intend  to 
keep  the  peace,  we  will  also 
keep  our  freedom." 

Presidents  .\ddress  Before  a 
Joint  Session  of  Congress. 
January  26   I  982 


Support  the 

Presidents 

Program 


ihe 


he  .National 
Endowment  for  the  Preser- 
vation of  Libeny  will  begin 
its  program  in  June  and 
will  continue  through 
October  of  this  year  in  this 
manner,  the  program  can 
operate  fully  during  the 
framing  of  the  debate  during 
budget  hearings  and  in  the 
primary  election  c\  cle  in  the 
Spring.  The  timing  will  ma.x- 
imize  its  educational 
possibilities.  Concurrently  it 
will  bring  public  attitudes  to 
bear  on  the  center  of  the 
debate  the  L  S.  Congress 
The  program  will  include 
the  following  acti\  Ities; 

President's  Message 

we  are  producing  a  brief 
\ideo-taped  statement  by 
President  Reagan  in  which 
he  will  restate  his  historic 
statement  of  .March  198  3 
about  the  significance  of 
SDl  In  It.  he  will  e.xplain  his 
"dream'  of  a  world  free  from 
the  threat  of  nuclear  annihila- 
tion which  can  be  achle^ed 
when  SDl  renders  iCBMs 
obsolete  These  \  ideo 
messages  w  ill  be  made 
available  to  groups  and 
individuals  around  the 
country  who  suppon  the 
President  They  will  also  be 
used  by  speakers  and  in 
television  inter\  lews 


UNCLASSIFIED 


604 


Television  Education 

NEPL  IS  preparing  e>  ecaich- 
ing  television  acl\  er- 
tisemenis.  i  5  and  30 
seconds  in  length,  for  place- 
ment in  careiulK  selected, 
imponant  media  markets 
thoughout  the  united  Slates 
These  creatively  crafted 
spots"  will  reduce  the 
many  complexities  of  SDl 
into  meaningful  and  truthful 
concepts  which  will  be 
readily  understood  by  the 
average  citizen  in  so  doing, 
they  will  counter  the  distor- 
ted perceptions  fostered  by 
deliberate  disinformation 
and  the  media  These  televi- 
sion programs  will  be  the 
heart  of  the  overall  cam- 
paign inasmuch  as  they 
ha\ e  proven  so  valuable  in 
other  public  Information 
efforts 

Newspaper  Advenlsments 

Just  as  the  iele\  ision    spots' 
are  to  be  directed  at 
a\  erage  citizens.  .\EPL  also 
is  thinking  of  those  better 
informed  individuals  for 
whom  telev ision  ads  may 
be  too  elementars-  \%'e 
are  preparing,  therefore, 
extensive  newspaper 
advertisements  which  will 
explore  in  greater  depth  the 
fundamental  moralli>'  of  a 
defensive  svsiem    vhich 


spares  lives  Several  hun- 
dred to  a  few  thousand 
words  in  length,  the 
newspaper  messages  will 
detail  the  Soviet  lead  in 
strategic  defense  systems 
and  the  benefits  of  the 
President  s  program. 

Talk  Shows/Interviews 

Similar  to  the  newspaper 
ads.  a  series  of  appear- 
ances on  telev  ision  and 
radio  by  leading  SDl  experts 
will  inform  the  public  of  the 
benefits  to  be  dern.ed  from 
SDl  research.  Panicipants 
will  Include  academics, 
such  as  Or  Edward  Teller, 
defense  specialists,  media 
analvsis  and  others  who 
will  be  fully  briefed  and  able 
to  present  the  case 
articulately  and  persuasive- 
ly The  interviewed  expens 
vs  ill  appear  on  national, 
regional  and  local  telev  ision 
and  radio  interview  shows 

Newspaper  Articles 

.NEPL  will  write  and  encour- 
age others  to  write  signed 
articles  on  SDi  which  will  be 
placed  on  opinion  pages  of 
the  leading  newspapers 
around  the  country  Among 
these  are  the  wall  Street 
Journal,  the  Sew  York 
Tinies.  LS.\  Today,  the 
washiitgton  Post,  the  Los 


HNCl/ISSinED 


"Proceeding 
boldly  with 
these  new 
technologies, 
we  can 
significantly 
reduce  any 
incentive  that 
the  Soviet 
Union  may 
have  to 
threaten  attack 
against  the 
United  States 
or  its  allies. 

Presidents  Address  to  the 
Sation.  March  23.  1  983 


^HcussiFm 


605 


OWCLASSIRFn 


.Ange/es  Times  and  others. 
The  opinion  articles  will  be 
about  800  words  in  length 
and  will  seek  to  point  out 
the  aggressive  nature  of 
Soviet  policies,  the  impact 
of  Soviet  propaganda  on  the 
debate  and  the  wisdom 
of  SDl. 

Television  Documentary 

losing  a  credible,  documen- 
tary style  of  presentation. 
NEPL  is  producing  a  i  5-  to 
30-minute  video  program 
for  television  which 
explores  the  evolution  of 
U.S.-Soviet  competition  and 
the  promise  of  SDi  to 
eliminate  the  threat  of 
nuclear  destruction.  The 
program  ■    ,1  counter  the 
arguments  of  the  nuclear 
freeze  and  the  anti-nuclear 
movements,  while  present- 
ing unassailable, 
morally  unimpeachable 
arguments  in  fa\  or  of  a 
defensive  s>siem  which 
kills  no  one.  The  completed 
video  programs  are  to  be 
given  to  local  television 
stations  for  use  in  their  news 
and  current  e\  ents 
schedules  in  addition,  the 
programs  can  be  used  by 
speakers,  as  background  or 


as  introductions  for 
inier\  lews,  and  by  civic 
groups  for  panel  discussion 
and  other  activities 

Coalition  Building 

NEPL  is  convinced  that  the 
Strategic  Defense  initiative  is 
a  highly  significant,  crucially 
important  program  which  all 
Americans  have  a  moral 
and  patriotic  obligation  to 
understand  and  judge. 
Therefore.  NEPL  will 
aggressively  increase  the 
possible  impact  of  its  pro- 
gram by  making  its  informa- 
tion available  to  as  many 
inidividuals  and  groups  as 
possible.  Individuals  and 
groups  throughout  the  coun- 
try stand  ready  to  assist  in 
this  critical  educational  cam- 
paign, but  they  often  lack 
the  visual  aids  and  written 
materials  to  present  views 
effectively,  we  plan  to  put 
video  programs,  publi- 
cations, issues,  papers  and 
other  information  in  their 
hands.  A  popular 
groundswell  will  be  the 
result,  one  that  will  be  able 
to  counter  effectively  the 
inevitable  propaganda 
barrage  from 
opponents  of  SDl. 


". . .  there  con 
be  no  greater 
good  than  the 
quest  for 
peace  and  no 
finer  purpose 
than  the 
preservation 
of  freedom. " 

Presidents  Address  Before  a 
Joint  Session  of  Congress. 
S'ouember  2 1.  l  985 


tjNCLA$S!F?ED 


606 


UNCLilSSIFiFn 


\  \I  ION  AL  ll.NDOWMli.NT  fOR  THE  PmiSURX  ATION  Ol-  LIBCR  Pi 

The  National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty 
(founded  March  1 984i  is  a  50 1  ia3  organization  which  concen- 
trates its  efforts  on  foreign  policy  issues  relating  to  the  expansion 
of  freedom,  the  support  of  democracy  and  national  security 
problems 

The  Endowment's  philosophy  is  that  in  a  democracy,  public 
policy  IS  most  effectively  influenced  through  a  knowledgeable 
and  informed  electorate  Therefore,  to  achieve  its  goals  the 
Endowment  develops  and  sponsors  public  information  and 
education  programs  to  increase  public  understanding  of 
American  foreign  policy  and  world  e\  ents 

The  central  focus  of  foundation  activities  in  1 985  and  1 986 
has  been  the  violation  of  human  rights  in  Nicaragua  and  the  San- 
dinisia  disinformation  campaign  targeted  on  the  American  public. 
During  the  past  20  months  the  Endowment  sponsored  television 
advertisements  and  a  speakers  program  to  increase  public 
awareness  of  events  in  Central  America. 

The  Endowment  is  also  concerned  about  the  reduction  of 
tension  between  the  superpowers,  believing  that  the  full  deploy- 
ment of  the  Strategic  Defense  initiative  (SDD  will  facilitate  a  lessen- 
ing of  friction  between  the  United  States  and  the  Soviet  union.  In 
.Ma\'  the  Endowment  began  a  comprehensive  multi-media  pro- 
gram to  increase  public  understanding  of  space  defense 

The  .National  Endowment  for  the  Preservation  of  Liberty  is  a 
non-profit  (50 1 -€-3)  organization  wholly  funded  by  contributions 
and  grants  from  the  private  sector  and  not  through  any  govern- 
ment funds. 


Graphic  Designer  George  J  vi< 

Photographer  Michael  Evans  Official  whiie  House  Phoiograpner 

Texi  Carl  Russell  cnanneil 

Francis  D  Cornez 

Richata  R  Miller 


Typesening  Joyce  wnne 
Printer  wesTland  Enierpnses 


^^^fCMSSffe 


607 


608 


UNCLASSIFIED 


"This  is  my  goal  (that  we 
Lvill  be  able  to)  pass  on  to 
our  posterity  f/ie  gift  of 
peace  —  that  and  freedom 
are  the  greatest  gifts  that 
one  generation  can 
bequeath  to  another." 

March  31.  1983 


UNCLASSIFIED 


609 


UNCLASSIFi'ED 


V  jS«r  «^j 


The  Sandinista  Military  Build-up 


Released  by  the  Department  of  State  and  the  Department  of  Defense 

Partially  OecidssitieJ'fie'eased  on  I^^*b6 
uncer  i)fOvi5ir;ri3  oi  t  C    I?356 


by  K  JoiiMion.  Nalior.ai  utjs.i'.i  Council 


P'U.-^i  ■ooirirr\ 


610 


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PUBLIC  REPORT 

OF  THE 

VICE  PRESIDENT'S  TASK  FORCE 

ON  COMBATTING  TERRORISM 


eieased  on  QptA^P^ 


Oy  K  Jonnson,  Naiionai  Security  Council 


FEBRUARY  1986 


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by  K  Johnson,  Nauonai  Secuii.v  Council 


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TRANSCRIPT 
OF  PROCEEDINGS 


ORIGINW. 


CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 


DBPOSITION  OF  DUNCAN  OSBORNE 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Thursday,  April  2,  1987 


Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 

Sitnotype  Repoiifrs 


m>2. 


444  North  Capitol  Street  .          /  -) 

■^                                                      Washmgwn,  DC.  20001  ^^ci  ^Y\  L- 
,  ^^  ^  ^  X.  /p^  7                         (202)347-3700 

nadcr  pravWom  of  LO.  12356                    NationMrideComastl  |||  A|  lAAinrn 

||byD.Slriu>.hUdon«JS««HtyC«0.dl                  800-336-6646     lllurl  fl\\|nr|| 


616 


70    01    01 

yaryhoward    1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


UNCussm 


UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  DUNCAN  OSBORNE 

Washington,  D.C. 
Thursday,  April  2,  1987 
Deposition  of  DUNCAN  OSBORNE,  called  for 
examination  pursuant  to  notice  of  deposition,  at  the 
offices  of  the  Select  Committee,  Room  901,  Hart  Senate 
Office  Building,  at  5:47  a.m.,  before  GARY  S.  HOWARD,  a 
Notary  Public  within  and  for  the  District  of  Columbia,  when 
were  present: 

JAMES  E.  KAPLAN,  Esq. 
Associate  Counsel 

United  States  Senate  Select  Committee  on 
Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  and 
the  Nicaraguan  Opposition 
Room  901,  Senate  Hart  Office  Building 
Washington,  D.C. 


UNCUSSIFIED 

ArF-FrnFRAI    REPORTERS    iNr 


617 


■7  01  01 
Ljdryhoward  1 
2 

3  I 
4 
5 

6  : 

7  ' 

3  ; 

9  i 
10 

11   ; 

12 

13  ' 

14  : 

15  ' 

16  I 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


UNCUSSiriED 


KEN  BUCK,  Esq. 
THOMAS  FRYMAN,  Esq. 

House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions  With  Iran 


UNCLASSIHED 


\     *-»•-      Cr-r^^**     .     »         Dt-I^Z-^OTC 


618 


37  01  01 
-:,dryhowaird  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
3 
9 
10 


11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


UNCUSSIRED 


C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 


WITNESS 

Duncan  Osborne 
by  Mr.  Fryman 


EXAMINATION 


UNCLASSIFIED 


OcDr^oTCDc      Tk 


619 


37    01    01 
jdryhoward    1 
2 


UNCUSSIFIED 


3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 

13  I 

1 

14  i 
15 

16  I 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-M-G-S 
Whereupon, 

DUNCAN  OSBORNE 
was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 
0     Mr.  Osborne,  would  you  state  your  full  name  for 
the  record? 

A     Duncan  Elliott  Osborne. 
Q     And  what  is  your  position? 

A     I'm  an  attorney.   I'm  a  lawyer  with  the  law  firm 
of  Graves,  Dougherty,  Hearon  &  Moody,  in  Austin. 


Q 

A 

Q 

A 
trusts. 

0 

A 
1976. 


undei  provisions  oi  LO.  123iu 
^b)r  O.  Sirfjo,  National  Security  Councl 


And  are  you  a  partner  in  that  firm? 

I'm  a  partner  in  that  firm. 

And  what  is  your  special  area? 

I  specialize  in  the  area  of  wills,  estates  and 

And  how  long  have  you  been  a  partner  in  the  firm? 
I've  been  a  partner  in  the  firm  since  January  of 

For  the  record,  Mr.  Osborne,  prior  to  the 


mm&m.. .. 


620 


UNCLASSIFIED 


37  01  01 

garyhoward  1 

2 

3 

4 

5  I 

6  • 

7  I 
Q  i 

'  \ 

10  I 

11  1 

1 

12  I 

j 

13  ' 

14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


commencement  of  this  deposition,  you  were  given  a  copy  of  a 
subpoena  from  the  House  Select  Committee,  as  well  as  a  copy 
of  a  subpoena  from  the  Senate  Select  Committee. 
Is  that  correct? 

A     That  is  correct. 

Q     And  you've  also  been  provided  with  copies  of  the 
rules  of  the  House  committee  and  the  resolution 
establishing  the  House  committee,  and  comparable  documents 
for  the  Senate  committee. 
Is  that  correct? 

A     That  is  correct. 

Q     Now,  Mr.  Osborne,  you  were  present  during  the 
deposition  of  Mrs.  Glanz  and  you  heard  her  testimony  about 
a  meeting  with  you  on  April  14,  1986,  during  which  time  she 
handed  you  a  list  which  contained  notations  regarding 
certain  types  of  arms. 

Do  you  recall  that  testimony? 

A     Yes,  I  do,  and  that's  correct. 

Q     And  you  did  receive  such  a  list  from  Mrs.  Glanz  on 
that  date? 

A     Yes,  I  did. 

0     What  do  you  recall  that  Mrs.  Glanz  told  you  at 


uMtussra.. .. 


621 


miASSW 


37  01  01 

^dryhoward  1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


that  time? 

A     Mrs.  Glanz  handed  me  a  list  and  said  Mrs.  Garwood 
brought  this  back  from  Washington,  and  she  wants  to  make  a 
contribution  to  help  meet  the  needs  of  the  Contras,  or 
words  to  that  effect. 

Q     Did  you  look  at  the  list? 

A     Yes,  r  did. 

Q     VJhat  do  you  recall  appeared  on  it? 

A     In  pencil,  there  was  a  list  of  armaments.   I 
cannot  recall  specifically  what  the  armaments  were,  but 
they  were  clearly  weapons  of  war,  things  like  anti-aircraft 
missiles,  cartridge  belts,  pistols,  hand  grenades.   And, 
again,  I'm  not  sure  any  of  those  things  specifically  were 
on  the  list,  but  they  were  certainly  things  of  that  nature. 

0     Were  there  dollar  amounts  on  the  list? 

A     I'm  not  sure,  but  I  think  so. 

0     How  large  apiece  of  paper  was  the  list? 

A     The  list  was  about  the  size  of  a  piece  of  small 
notepad  paper,  maybe  four  or  five  inches  long  and  three  or 
four  inches  wide. 

0     v/as  it  on  white  paer? 


Yes,  it  was. 


UNtLASSiflEi) 


622 


UNCUSsm 


37  01  01 
yaryhoward  1       Q     Was  there  any  sort  of  letterhead  on  the  list: 

2  A      I  don't  think  so. 

3  I      0     Now  what  did  you  do  with  the  list  after  Mrs.  Glanz 

4  I   gave  it  to  you? 

5  A      I  put  it  down  on  my  desk. 

6  Q     Were  there  other  materials  on  your  desk? 

7  A      Yes,  there  were. 

8  i      Q     What  types  of  materials? 

9  i      A     There  were  other  files  and  file  folders  and  other 

10  I   pieces  of  paper,  miscellaneous  notes,  correspondence,  legal 

11  '   pads. 

12  '      0     Now,  after  Mrs.  Glanz  handed  you  the  list,  did  you 

13  '   discuss  Mrs.  Garwood's  affairs  with  her  for  a  period  of 

14  j   time? 

15  I     A     Yes,  I  did. 

16  I  •    Q     And  where  was  the  list  when  Mrs.  Glanz  left  your 

17  office? 

18  A     My  recollection  is  that  I  returned  the  list  to 

19  Mrs.  Glanz. 

20  Q     At  that  initial  meeting  with  her? 

21  A      At  that  initial  meeting  with  her,  yes,  sir. 

22  Q      Do  you  recall  saying  anything  to  her  when  you  gave 


UNCliS^Eim 


623 


UNCUSSIFIED 


37  01  01 

ydryhoward  1 

2 

3 

4 

5  I 

6  ! 

I 

7  i 
i 

8  I 

9  j 
I 

10  I 

"  I 
12  I 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


8 


her  the  list? 

A     I  can't  recall  with  any  accuracy  or  specificity 
what  I  said,  but  my  intention  was  to  get  the  list  back  to 
Mrs.  Garwood. 

0     Now,  did  you  have  any  other  discussion  about  the 
list  with  Mrs.  Glanz  in  April  or  May  of  1986? 

A     So,  I  did  not. 

0     Did  you  have  any  discussion  concerning  the  list 
with  Mrs.  Garwood  in  April  or  May  of  1986? 

A     None  whatsoever. 

0     Did  you  have  any  discussion  of  the  list  with 
anyone  else  in  April  or  May  of  1986? 

A     No,  I  don't  believe  I  did. 

0     Before,  according  to  your  recollection,  you 
returned  the  list  to  Mrs.  Glanz,  did  you  make  a  copy  of  the 
list? 

A     No,  I  did  not. 

0     Did  you  have  anyone  else  make  a  copy? 

A     No,  1  did  not. 

Q     Have  you  seen  the  list  since  April  14,  1986? 

A     No,  I  have  not. 

Q     Has  anyone  since  April  14,  1986  indicated  to  you 

U(tCliSSiE&. ,. 


624 


UNCLASSIFIED 


37  01  01 
.jdryhoward  1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 

7  1 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


in  any  way  the  location  of  the  list? 

A     No,  they  have  not.   No  one  has. 

0     Now  you  were  aware  of  Mrs.  Glanz's  testimony  that 
she  left  the  list  with  you  during  your  meeting  on  April 
14th. 

A     That  is  correct.  I'm  aware  of  that  testimony. 

Q     And  that  the  list  was  never  returned  to  her. 

A     That's  what  she  said,  that's  correct. 

0     You're  aware  of  that  testimony? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Now,  have  you  caused  any  search  to  be  made  of  your 
office  for  this  list? 

A     Yes,  I  have. 

0     Would  you  describe  the  nature  of  the  search? 

A     I  keep  fairly  detailed  records  of  the  time  that  I 
expend  for  my  clients.  I  went  back  and  reviewed  my 
timesheets  to  see  what  files  I  was  working  on  in  April  of 
1986,  and  referred  to  files  approximately  a  week  prior  to 
April  14th,  1986,  and  the  week  after  April  14th,  1986.  I 
made  a  list  of  all  of  those  files.   And  then  either  I  or, 
in  some  cases,  other  attorneys  in  my  office  who  have 
primary  responsibility  for  those  files,  searched  each  file 


FRS  fNr 


625 


37  01  01 

ydryhoward  1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


UNCLASSIFIED 


10 


on  a  piece-of-paper  by  piece-of-paper  basis,  looking  Eor 
the  list. 

0     And  what  was  the  result  of  the  search? 

A     That  the  list  was  not  located. 

0     Do  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  that  the  list 
has  been  destroyed? 

A     No.   I  can  only  say  that  both  Mrs.  Glanz  and 
myself  reacted  negatively  to  the  list.   But  I  did  not 
destroy  it  and  I  gave  no  instruction  that  it  should  be 
destroyed. 

Q  VJell,  do  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  that  it 

was  destroyed? 

A     No. 

0     Mr.  Osborne,  it  is  the  House  committee's  position 

that  the  subpoena  served  on  you  imposes  a  continuing 

P 

obligation  with  resect  to  this  list.   In  the  event  that 
A 

the  list  is  discovered,  it  is  our  position  that  you  are 
obligated  to  make  it  available  to  the  staff  of  the  House 
committee.   And  I  believe  that  would  apply  to  the  Senate 
committee  as  well. 

MR.  KAPLAN:  Yes,  that's  correct. 

BY  MR.  FRYMAN: 


wsmm.. 


626 


37  01  01 
ydryhoward  1 


UNCLASSIFIED 


11 


2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 

12  ' 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 


0     Do  you  understand  that? 
A     Yes,  I  understand  that. 

MR.  FRYMAN:  All  right.   I  have  no  further 
questions.   My  colleagues,  Mr.  Kaplan  and  Mr.  Buck,  can  now 
ask  further  questions. 

MR.  KAPLAN:   I  have  no  further  questions.  I 
appreciate  your  cooperation  in  appearing  in  sworn  testimony 
before  the  committees  today. 

THE  WITNESS:  Thank  you. 

MR.  BUCK:  I  also  have  no  further  questions. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Thank  you,  Mr.  Osborne. 

(Signature  not  waived.) 

(Whereupon,  at  6:00  p.m.,  the  taking  of  the 
deposition  was  concluded.) 


Duncan  E.  Osborne 


IINCDISSIFIEO 


627 


UNCUSSIFIED 


12 


I, 


CERTIFICATE  OF  NOTARY  PUBLIC  &  REPORTER 

,  the  officer  before 


Garv  S .  Howard 


whom  the  foregoing  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby 
certify  that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the 
foregoing  deposition  was  duly  sworn  by  me;  that  the 
testimony  of  said  witness  was  taken  in  shorthand  and 
thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by  me  or  under  my 
direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a    true  record  of  the 
testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am  neither  counsel 
for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by  any  of  the  parties  to 
the  action  in  which  this  deposition  was  taken;  and,  further, 
that  I  am  not  a  relative  or  employee  of  any  attorney  or 
counsel  employed  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor  financially 
or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcome  of  the  action. 


Notary  P'uBlic  in  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


My  Commission  Expires   November  14,  1990. 


UNCUSSIFIED 


628 


4:15 


3TEIN 
QUINTERO 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


DNBCASSIFHBlr 
UNCLASSIFIED 


DEPOSITION  OF  ROBERT  OWEN 


Monday,  April  20,  1987 


House  of  Representatives 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms 

Transactions  with  Iran, 
Washington,  D.C. 


The  select  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at 
4:15  p.m.,  in  Room  H-128,  The  Capitol,  W.  Neil  Eggleston 
(deputy  chief  counsel  for  the  committee)  presiding. 
Also  present:   Jack  Taylor,  Investigator,  Select  Committee 
to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  with  Iran;  Richard  J.  Leon, 
Deputy  Counsel,  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms 
with  Iran;  Terry  Smiljanich,  Associate  Counsel,  United 
States  Senate,  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance 
to  Iran;  Thomas  Hylden,  and  Leonard  C.  Greenebaum,  Law  Firm 
of  Sachs,  Greenebaum  6  Taylor,  Counsel  for  Witness. 


^^mtions  of  EO.  m^s^ 


UNCLASSIFIED    HOZS 


629 


10 

11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 


UffiStft^flEi:'!' 


Whereupon,  ROBERT  OWEN,  after  having  been  first 
duly  sworn,  was  called  as  a  witness  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  I  am  Neil  Eggleston,  Deputy  Chief 
Counsel  of  the  House  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 
Arms  Transactions  with  Iran.   The  purpose  of  this  committee 

as  set  forth  in  H.R.  12,  is  to  investigate  various  activities 

a 

including  both  the  Iran  initiative  and  the  activities  of 

various  individuals  in  connection  with  the  activities  in 
Central  America,  particularly  the  Contras  in  Nicaragua 

You  are  present  here  today  pursuant  to  a  subpoena 
which  has  been  issued  by  this  committee  and  that  subpoena 
compelled  you  to  be  here  today 

Let  me  ask  you  two  questions:   First,  pursuant  to 
that  subpoena  and  pursuant  to  the  compulsion  order,  let  me 
ask  you  first,  Mr.  Owen,  do  you  know  a  man  by  the  naune  of 
Oliver  North? 
"•9         A    I  refuse  to  answer  that  on  the  grounds  that  it 

20  might  incriminate  me 

21  Q    Mr.  Owen,  you  have  also  been  provided  with  duplicat s 

22  subpoenas,  one  directed  to  yourself,  one  directed  to  the 

23  Institute  for  Democracy,  Education  and  Assistance,  and  one 

24  directed  to  the  Council  for  Democracy,  Education  and 

25  Assistance.   Let_nie.ask  vounow  prior  to  the  time  that  you 


IM^ili 


630 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 


UNm^ffiffT 


have  been  granted  immunity,  whether  you  have  any  documents 
to  provide  this  committee  pursuant  to  those  three  subpoenas? 

A    Again,  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  that  it 
might  incriminate  me. 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  let  me  advise  you  that  a  U.S.  District 
Court  judge  for  the  District  of  Columbia  has  issued  an  order, 
and  I  am  going  to  read  that  order  to  you,  and  read  that  order 
into  the  record.   I  might  also  add  that  I  have  produced 
and  provided  a  copy  of  this  order  to  your  counsel. 
MR.  GREENEBAUM:   We  have  the  order. 
BY   MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Nevertheless,  just  so  the  record  is  clear,  I  will 
read  it  into  the  record. 

It  is  captioned  in  the  United  States  District 
Court  for  the  District  of  Columbia,  and  the  caption  "House 
Select  Coramittee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions 
with  Iran,  U.S.  House  of  Representatives,  Washington,  D.C., 
20515,  Applicant,  Misc.  No.  87-0104."  There  is  a  stamp 
on  it  indicating  it  was  mailed  March  30,  1987. 

"On  consideration  of  the  application  by  the  House 
Select  Coramittee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions 
with  Iran  and  the  memorandum  of  points  and  authorities,  and 

23  exhibits,  in  support  thereof,  the  Court  finds  that  the  pro- 

24  cedural  requisites  set  forth  in  18   U.S.C  §  6005  for  an 

25  order  of  the  Court  have  beeij^s^tisf i^^  Accordingly,  it  is 


631 


«iij^ 


4 
ORDERED  that  Robert  Owen  may  not  refuse  to  provide  any 


evidence  in  proceedings  before  the  House  Select  Committee 
to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran  on  the 
basis  of  his  privilege  against  self-incrimination,  and  it  is 
FURTHER  ORDERED  that  no  evidence  obtained  under  this  Order 
(or  any  information  directly  or  indirectly  derived  from 
such  evidence)  may  be  used  against  Robert  Owen  in  any 
criminal  case,  except  a  prosecution  for  perjury,  giving  a 

Q 

false  statement,  or  otherwise  failing  to  comply  with  this 

Order. " 

"It  is  FURTHF.R  ORDERED   that  this  order  shall 

become  effective  on  April  19,  1987,  signed  by:  Aubrey  E. 

Robinson,  Jr.,  dated:  March  30,  1987." 

I  also  note  for  the  record  that  today  is  April 

20tK,  so  the  order  is  effective.   The  document  I  just 

read  to  you  has  the  certification  and  the  seal  of  the  U.S 

District  Court  for  the  District  of  Columbia  on  it. 
18  This  order,  by  its  terms,  removes  your  privilege 

1^     against  self-incrimination.   And  in  light  of  this  order 

20  r  direct  you  to  respond  to  the  questions  that  have  been 

21  posed  to  you,  and  other  questions  that  will  be  posed  to  you 

22  And  I  would  also  ask  the  court  reporter  to  direct  you  to 

23  respond  to  these  questions. 

24  (Reporter  directs  witness  to  respond  to  questions  of  counsel. 


25 


UNCLASSIFIED 


632 


10 

11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 


alJgfuPffiwr 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  let  me  first  ask  you  various  questions 
with  regard  to  the  subpoenas  which  have  been  served  on  you. 

First  is  a  subpoena  issued  to  Robert  Owen,  issued 
by  the  House  Select  Committee,  which  is  dated,  I  think  the 
24th  of  February,  1987,  sinb^d  by  Lee  Hamilton,  the  Chairman 
of  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Owen,  do  you  have  any  documents,  now  that  you 


have  been  granted  immunity  ancyou  are  compelled  to  respond 


to  the  questions  that  the  committee  poses  to  you,  let  me 
ask  you  whether  you  have  any  documents  which  are  responsive 
to  the  subpoena? 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   Let  me  respond  for  the 
record. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Certainly. 
MR.  GREENEBAUM:   In  anticipation  of  the 
'      immunity  order  and  the  direction  to  respond,  Mr.  Owen  has 
'"     brought  certain  documents  to  facilitate  as  well  as  supple- 
''     ment  his  testimony,  which  we  would  not  have  produced  but 

20  for  the  immunity  order.   I  want  that  clear  for  the  record. 

21  BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

22  Q    I  take  it  then,  Mr.  Owen,  that  you  do  have 

23  documents  to  produce  in  response  to  that  part  of  the 

24  subpoena? 

25  A    Yes,  I, 


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Q    Could  you  provide  those  to  us  so  that  the  court 
reporter  may  mark  those  documents? 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Court  Reporter,  could  you 
mark  this  as  RO-1,  of  today's  date,  and  if  you  would  just 
mark  the  box  for  this  purpose,  at  a  later  time  we  will  go 
through  the  documents  in  a  more  comprehensive  fashion. 

(The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit 
RO-1  for  identification:) 

COMMITTEE  INSERT 


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^|gf^sS8S' 


BY  MR,  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  you  have  now  provided  various  documents 
in  response  to  the  subpoena  issued  to  you  personally.   Let 
me  ask  you,  do  you  also  have  documents  which  you  are  going  to 
produce  to  the  committee  in  response  to  the  subpoena  com- 
pelling you  to  produce  documents  which  have  been  issued  to 
the  Institute  for  Democracy,  Education  and  Assistance? 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   I  understand,  Mr.  Greenebaum,  the 
comments  that  you  made  about  the  Owen  subpoena  issued 
to  Mr.  Owen  on  behalf  of  the  IDEA;  is  that  correct? 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   That  is  correct. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  do  have  those  documents. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Please  mark  this  RO-2. 
(The  following  document  was  marked  as  Exhibit  RO-2 
for  identification:) 

COMMITTEE  INSERT 


UNCLASSIFIED 


635 


^^0S^ 


8 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  there  was  a  third  subpoena  which  was 
served  on  you  which  is  also  dated  24  February.   It  is 
directed  to  the  Council  for  Democracy,  Education  and 
Assistance.   Do  you  have  any  documents  to  produce  pursuant 
to  that  subpoena? 

A    No,  I  don't.   I  am  no  longer  associated  with  that 
association. 

Q    And  you  have  no  documents  of  that  organization 
under  your  custody  or  control? 

A    No ,  I  don '  t . 

Q    Previous  to  the  time  that  I  read  to  you  the 
immunity  order  and  directed  you  to  respond  and  that 
the  Court  Reporter  directed  you  to  respond,  I  asked  a 
question  about  whether  or  not  you  knew  Oliver  L.  North. 
Now  that  you  have  been  granted  immunity  or  that  the  immunity 
order  has  been  conferred  on  you,  let  me  ask  you  again,  do 
you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of  Oliver  L.  North? 

A    Yes. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   At  this  time,  unless  there  is  an 
objection,  I  will  ask  that  this  deposition  be  adjourned. 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   That  is  satisfactory. 
(Whereupon,  at  4:25  p.m.,  the  deposition  was  adjourned.) 


mmms^ 


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^■:)\Ts-54^^ 


COPY  Na__l— — OF — 6. jCOPIES 


I. 


DEPOSITION  OF  ROBERT  W.  OWEN 


Monday,  May  4,  1987 


Yx^-2. 


U.S.  House  of  Representatives, 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 

Arms  Transactions  with  Iran, 
Washington,-  D.C. 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on. 

under  provisions  o(  E.O,  12356 
by  K  Johnson.  National  Security  Council 


|(Jft-N86 


The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  9:00  a.m.,  in 
Room  H-128,  the  Capitol,  with  W.  Neil  Eggleston  (Deputy  Chief 
of  House  Select  Committee)  presiding. 

Present:   W.  Neil  Eggleston,  Deputy  Chief  Counsel; 
Richard  L.  Leon,  Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel,  on  behalf  of 
the  House  Select  Committee  on  Covert  Arras  Transactions  with 
Iran;  Dee  Benson,  Personal  Representative  to  Senator  Orrin 
Hatch;  Terry  Smiljanich,  Associate  Counsel,  United  States 
Senate  Select  Committee  on  Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran 
and  the  Nicaraguan  Opposition;  and  Richard  H.  Giza,  Subcommittee 
on  Evaluation,  Permanent  Select  Committee  on  Intelligence. 

Also  present:   Leonard  C.  Greenebaum,  Sachs,  Greenebaum  & 


llNCUaSiFJED 


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'    Tayler;  and  Thomas  Hylden,  Attorney  At  Law,  Sachs,  Greenebaum 


&  Tayler,  on  behalf  of  the  deponent. 


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llNffilWfB 


MR.  fiGGLESTON:  Mr.  Owen,  for  the  record,  my  name  is 
Neil  Eggleton,  Deputy  Chief  Counsel  to  the  House  Select 
Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran. 

This  deposition  is  being  conducted  both  by  the  House 
Committee  and  the  Senate  Committee,  and  it  is  in  furtherance  ol 
resolutions  which  establish  both  of  ♦:hose  committees  and  pro- 
vided for  depositions  to  conduct  those  investigations. 

Let  me  say  at  the  outset  thiat  this  deposition  is 
a  continuation  of  a  deposition  which  began  some  days  ago,  at 
which  time  you  were  formally  granted  and  presented  with  an 
immunity  order  which  immunized  statements  and  any  evidence 
derived  from  any  statements  you  may  have  made. 

This  deposition  is  a  continuation  of  that  deposition, 
and  so  it  is  similarly  subject  to  those  same  provisions. 

I  might  also  say  for  the  record  that  moments  ago  you 
were  sworn  in  by  a  notary  public. 

Let  me  also  say  that  this  deposition  is  being 
conducted  in  order  to  provide  some  of  the  information  or  put 
down  some  of  the  information  that  you  have  provided  to  us  in  a 
form  we  have  talked  at  some  length  now  about  various  aspects  ol 
your  involvement  from  1984  through  1986 . 

This  is  certainly  not  intended  to  be  comprehensive. 
I  am  going  to  ask  you  questions  about  various  areas.   I  know 
that  you  have  taken  lots  of  trips  that  you  are  not  going  to  be  J 
testifying  to  today  because  I  am  not  going  to  ask  you  about 
them. 


UNCLASSiFIED 


639 


25 


mtmB 


'  I  am  going  to  ask  you  just  some  things  about  various 

2  conversations,  and  I  know  that  you  have  had  a  number  of 

^  conversations  with  various  people  that  I  am  not  going  to  ask 

*  you  about,  so  I  understand  that  during  the  course  of  this,  you 

5  are  simply  responding  to  my  questions.   You  are  not  saying 

®  everything  you  know  about  your  involvement  in  this  activity 

7  from  1984  to  1986. 

8  MR.  GREENEBAUM:   With  your  permission,  I  would  like 

9  to  elaborate  for  a  moment.   I  think  the  record  should  reflect 
'0  the  immunity  order  and  the  direction  to  testify  came  after  he 
"  asserted  his  constitutional  rights  not  to  testify,  and  while 
^2  I  appreciate  that  you  don't  plan  to  ask  him  aUDOut  all  the 

13  things  he  knows  about,  I  think  the  record  should  also  reflect 

14  that  he  has  been  interviewed  and  that  you  have  already  asked 

15  him  about  those.   It  is  not  just  a  matter  of  his  not  testifying 

16  edjout  things  you  know  he  knows,  but  things  that  he  has  discusse ; 

17  with  you,  and  that  he  has  been  forthcoming  and  complete  in  his 

18  answers. 

19  I  assume  that  the  discussions  are  protected  by  the 

20  immunity  order  as  well  as  the  testimony  based  on  — 

21  MR.  EGGLESTON:   That  is  correct. 

22  i  MR.  GREENEBAUM:   I  guess  that  should  include  the 

23  documents. 

24  MR.  EGGLESTON:   In  addition,  you  provided  Mr.  Owen 
various  documents  subDoenaed  Diiraiiant,a'(i&BKP^  *"*^  organizations 


D 


640 


UKSdfiKEO 


'  with  which  you  were  associated.   Those  documents  were  also 

2  provided  only  after  the  immunity  order  was  granted  on  you,  and 

^  indeed  some  of  the  questioning  today  will  be  based  on  documents 

*  that  you  provided  to  us,  after  the  immunity  order  was  served 

5  upon  you. 

^  WHEREUPON, 

7  RODERT  W.  OWEN 

8  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  duly  sworn,  was 

9  further  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

10  EXAMINATION  BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

11  Q    Mr.  Owen,  could  you  just  tell  me  very  briefly  about 

12  your  educational  background  and  your  work  backgroud  up  until 

13  the  time  you  began  with  Gray  &  Company? 

14  A    I  graduated  from  high  school  from  Moses  Brown  School 

15  in  Providence,  Rhode  Island,  in  1971,  went  to  Philipps  Academy 

16  in  Andover  for  the  next  few  years,  and  then  I  graduated  and 

17  attended  Stanford  University  and  subsequently  graduated  in 

18  1978. 

19  From  1976  —  from  1977,  I  worked  in  St.  Paul  School 

20  in  Concord,  New  Hampshire,  and  from  1977  to  1980,  I  worked  at 

21  the  Brentwood  School  in  Los  Angeles,  California. 

22  In  the  summer  of  1980,  I  made  a  decision  to  go  to 

23  Thailand  to  work  with  the  U.R.  Refugee  Program,  and  I  did  that 

24  in  the  fall  of  1980.   I  returned  to  the  United  States  when  I 

25  heard  my  father  was  terminally  ill  with  cancer  in  late  1980. 


iiNriAi<uEiFn 


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uNcssm 


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1» 
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25 


I  came  to  Washington  seeking  employment  in  1981, 
and  started  in  September  with  the  Senate  Republican  Conference. 
I  worked  there  until  March  of  1982,  where  I  then  went  to 
work  for  Senator  Dan  Quayle  as  Assistant  Press  Secretary  and 
then  moved  into  his  slot  as  Legislative  Assistant  for  Foreign 
Affairs,  and  I  did  that,  working  with  him  until  late  198  3, 
where  I  then  wer.t  to  work  for  Gray  &  Company  in  their  Inter- 
national Division,  and  I  worked  from  there  until  late  1984  and 
from  then  started  my  involvement  with  this  effort. 

Q    Curing  the  period  of  time  that  you  were  at  Gray  & 
Company,  did  you  work  on  a  proposal  relating  to  the  contras? 

A    Yes,  in  the  spring  of  1984,  I  believe  it  was  in 
April,  either  one  of  our  vice  presidents  was  approached  by 
Bosco  Motainorris  or  they  just  met  and  perhaps  the  vice  presi- 
dent asked  that  there  might  be  something  we  could  do  for  them. 
Neal  Livingston,  who  was  then  senior  Vice  President 
at  Gray  t   Company  asked  me  to  follow  up  on  it.   I  had  several 
meetings  with  Bosco  Motamorris,  a  representative.   FDN  and  a 
fellow  by  the  name  of  Alvero  Rizzo. 

But  after  my  first  meeting,  I  went  to  talk  with 
Lieutenant  Oliver  North  of  the  NSC  to  discuss  this  with  him. 
Q    IS  this  the  first  time  you  met  with  Colonel  North? 
A    No.   I  met  the  colonel,  I  believe,  in  July  198  3 
when  I  was  with  Senator  Quayle,  an  Indiana  constituent  named 
John  Holt  had  come  to  our  office  along  with  three  other  people 


11 


uu^,jU>Aiiarn 


rro/?  r\  oo  oo 


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wsmm 


He  had  just  come  in  from  Costa  Rica  and  had  a 
Nicaraguan  with  him  who  had  just  come  in  off  of  fighting  in 
Nicaragua.   I  felt  that  it  was  important  that  they  get  to  see 
as  many  people  as  possible  in  the  United  States  Government  to 
talk  about  what  was  going  on  down  there,  and  one  of  the  meet- 
ings I  had  was  with  Lieutenant  Oliver  North. 

Q    xou  have  indicated  while  you  were  with  Gray  &  Company 
there  was  an  approach  made  about  whether  or  not  Gray  & 
Company  could  do  some  work  for  the  contras  and  I  take  it  that 
resulted  in  some  sort  of  a  report? 

A    After  I  went  to  see  Colonel  North,  I  asked  him 
where  this  was  coming  from,  and  he  said  that  certain  people  had 
suggested  to  the  FDN  that  they  find  representation  in 
Washington,  and  it  was  my  understanding  he  said  that  they  had 
given  him  a  list  of  names  of  companies. 

We  had  several  meetings,  and  out  of  that,  came  a 
proposal  that  Neal  Livingston,  senior  vice  president,  and  i 
worked  on  where  we  suggested  that  possibly  proprietary  compan- 
ies be  set  up. 

This  would  be  outside  of  Gray  &  Company's  involve- 
ment.  This  would  be  in  a  private  effort,  because  at  that  time 
we  knew  the  funding  was  running  low,  and  they  needed  some  way 
to  find  a  bridge  gap  until  congressional  money  would  be 
removed. 

Q    And  what  did  you  do  with  the  document  that  you  and 
Mr.  Livingston  — 


iiNHi  hmm 


643 


msmm 


1  MR.  GREENEBAUMj   I  am  not  sure  he  finished  his 

2  answer. 

3  THE  WITNESS:  I  am  fine.  I  provided  to  Lieutenant 
*  Colonel  Oliver  North  in  there  there  were  several  options.  One 
5  was  going  with  the  proprietary  route  and  the  other  was  setting 
®  up  some  non-profit  organizations  which  could  then  go  out  and 

7  actively  fund  raise  for  humanitarian  goods. 

8  The  proprietaries  would  be  used  to  purchase-  things 

9  that  may  not  be  able  to  be  purchased  inside  the  United  States. 

10  BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

11  Q    By  things,  what  are  you  referring  to? 

12  A    Arms  and  other  military  needs  that  they  may  have. 

13  Q    Did  you  discuss  the  memorandum  with  Colonel  North? 

14  A    Yes,  I  did. 

15  Q    Do  you  remember  approximately  the  time  frame  when 

16  you  provided  the  memorandum  to  Colonel  North? 

17  A    That  probably  was  in  May  of  1984. 

18  Q    Did  you  discuss  the  memorandum  with  Colonel  North? 

19  A    Yes,  I  did. 

20  Q    And  what  was  the  discussion? 
A    Out  of  that,  a  decision  was  made  that  I  would  go 

down     do  a  survey^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|looking 
at  what  their  needs  would  be. 


21 
22 

23 

24  At  that  time,  I  also  suggested  I  take  a 

25  representative  from  a  congressional  office  with  me,  because  I 

mp\  nQQiciirn 


jj 


644 


wmsm 


'  thought  it  would  be  good  that  they  have  a  clear  idea  of  what 

2  was  going  to  be  needed,  in  case  or  when  the  President  submitte 

^  another  request  for  funding  for  them. 

*         '    We  flew  from  Washington  to  Costa  Rica  in  May  of 

^  1986,  and  I  subsequently  stayed  down  there  until  June  5  of 

6  1984.   This  was  1984,  not  1986. 

7  Q    And  while  down  there,  did  you  have  occasion  to  speak 

8  with  people  associated  with  the  FDN? 

9  A    Yes,  I  did. 

10 '       Q    Did  you  discuss  with  them  their  funding  needs? 

11  A    Yes,  I  did.   I  was  told  that  they  would  need  a 

12  minimum  of  $1  million  a  month  to  continue,  and  if  they  were  to 

13  have  the  same  military  resources  such  as  arms  and  other  things 

14  they  would  probably  need  a  million  and  a  half  a  month  and  that 

15  would  potentially  help  them  grow  a  little  bit  as  well. 

16  Q    When  the  trip  was  over,  did  you  speak  to  Colonel 

17  North  about  the  trip  you  were  taking? 

18  A    Yes,  I  did. 

19  Xi  And  did  you  tell  him  about  the  military,  the 

20  financial  needs  that  the  FDN  had  relayed  to  you? 

21  A    Yes.   I  did  at  least  one,  it  not  two,  reports 

22  which  went  over  the  needs,  and  also  the  present  situation 

23  that  was  taking  place  at  the  time  the  Sandinistas  were  involve 

an  of  fensive  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^nd 

25  this  happened  at  the  same  time  that  the  attempted  assassinatio 


645 


URSHlEO 


10 


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of   Eden   Pastora  occurred. 

Q  And  did  you  discuss  with  Colonel  North  the 

requirement  of    $1.5  million,    if  the  contras  were   to  expand 
their   military   capability? 

A  Yes,    I   did. 

Q    You  indicated  that  you  were  down  in  Costa  Rica  at 
the  time  the  bombing  took  place.   What  do  you  know  about  the 
bombing? 

A    I  was  staying  at  John  Hull's  apartment  in  San  Jose, 
and  that  evening  I  had  a  brief  meeting  with  theR^Hat  the  tim< 
It  was  more  of  a  get-togethei 
^^^^^^^^I^^^^^^^H  he  a 

other. 

We  discussed  the  situation  and  also  the  needs  of 
the  South.   We  were  woken  up  that  evening  by  several  Nicarag- 
uans  who  came  to  the  house  and  told  John  that  a  bombing  had 
taken  place,  that  Pastora  was  wounded.   They  didn't  know  when 
whether  he  was  killed  or  not. 

They  subsequently  asked  John  to  go  out  and  help 
bring  in  the  wounded.   1  believe  he  got  in  touch  with  some 
representatives  of  the  United  States  Embassy,  and  the  decision 
was  made  that  he  would  not  go  out  there. 

Previously  that  day,  we  talked  with  members  of  the 
then-Pastora  Air  Force,  a  quasi-Air  Force,  and  they  had  asked 
what  they  should  do  with  their  planes,  because  the  funding  was 


nMm  Aooirirn 


646 


mmmi 


11 


'    being  dropped. 

2 


We  didn't  necessarily  think  it  was  appropriate 
that  they  were  talking  with  us,  but  as  they  asked,  we  suggeste 
they  move  the  planes ^^^^^^^^^^^^^und  they  ended  up  doing 
that. 

Q    Do  you  recall  writing  a  letter  to  Colonel  North 
^    around  July  2,  1984? 

®        A    I  may  have.   I  wrote  a  number  of  them. 
'         Q    There  is  a  reference  in  a  letter  which  we  have  ob- 
tained from  Colonel  ^Jorth's  office.   It  says,  "As  for  the  toys 
we  talked  about,  I  will  be  having  a  meeting  this  week  to  learn 
what  clarifications  are  needed." 

Do  you  recall  what  that  was  a  reference  to? 
'^        A    It  would  have  been  talking  about  arms.   Toys  would 
'5    have  been  arms. 
'6        Q    And  later  in  that  document,  there  is  a  reference 

17  to  an  individual  that  you  were  meeting  with.   Do  you  recall 

18  who  that  individual  was? 

19  A    I  don't  recall  the  individual's  name,  but  he  had 

20  done  work  ir 

21  Q    By  done  work,  what  do  you  mean? 

22  A    I  believe  he  may  —  he  is  an  Anverican  who  may  have 

23  done  some  representation. 

24  Q    And  you  don't  recall  who  it  was? 

25  A    No,  not  right  offhand.   I  think  if  I  think  about  it 

imm  fiocicirn 


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1 

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wissmti 


12 


I  may  be  able  to  come  up  with  it.   It  was  suggested  that  I  get 
together  with  him  because  he  would  potentially  have  access  to 
putting  together  a  deal  for  the  procurement  of  articles  out  of 


letter; 


MR.  SMILJANICH:   Could  you  read  the  date  of  that 

THE  WITNESS:   July  2,  1984. 

MR.  SMILJANICH:   Who  is  it  addressed  to? 

THE  WITNESS:   "Dear  Ollie."   I  was  dumb  enough  to 


sign  it, 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Signed  Rob;  is  that  correct? 

A    Signed  Rob,  yes. 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  did  you  attend  a  meeting  in  August  of  1984 
in  Dallas? 

A    Yes.   I  was  working  out  of  Dallas  as  a  volunteer 
for  the  Reagan  —  for  the  Republican  Convention,  and  Oliver 
North  flew  out  for  a  meeting  of  CNP,  which  is  the  Council  for 
National  Policies.   It  is  a  conservative  non-profit  organiza- 
tion. 

Also  in  attendance  at  that  meeting  were  Adolfo 
Colero  and  General  Jack  Singlaub.   I  met  General  Singlaub  for 
the  first  time  and  it  may  have  been  the  first  time  I  met  with 
Adolfo  Colero;  I  don't  remember. 

Q    Did  the  four  of  you  all  meet  at  the  same  time? 


lIMm  AOOinrn 


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uNeeeFiED 


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1  A    We  met  a  couple  different  times  over  that  period. 

2  I  think  it  was  maybe  two  days. 

3  Q    And  what  were  the  discussions  about  among  your 

4  people? 

5  A    The  discussions  of  fundraising  for  the  FDN,  the  need 

6  to  find  assistance  for  them  so  they  can  get  through  this  bridg 

7  period  until  the  United  States  picked  up  assistance  again. 

8  Q    Was  there  discussion  about  the  need  to  provide 

9  military  equipment  to  the  contras? 
JO        A    I  believe  so. 

J  J        Q    And  that  was  a  discussion  among  yourself,  Colonel 

12  North,  Mr.  Calero,  and  General  Singlaub? 

j3        A    Yes,  I  believe  so. 

j4        Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  late  October  of  198  4 

J5  During  that  time  period,  approximately  October  26  to  the  31st 

j5  of  1984  ,  did  you  take  a  trip 


A    May  I  clarify  one  thing?   It  wasn't  until  late 
August  or  in  August  some  time  that  we  did  submit  a  proposal 
from  Gray  &  Company  to  the  FDN.   Gray  &  Company  made  a  dec i sic 
that  it  did  not  want  to  represent  the  FDN,  and  Adolfo  Calero 
felt  it  was  probably  too  expensive  and  prohibitive  to  do  that 
anyway,  so  he  and  I  had  several  discussions  during  this  period 

From  October    to  October     I  did  go^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
and  while  there  I  did  meet  with  Adolfo  Calero. 

Q    Did  you  have  conversations  with  Calero  about  you 


649 


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mfMB 


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'    working  for  him? 

2  A    Yes,  at  that  time  he  and  I  had  talked  about 

3  possibilities,  and  I  made  an  offer  that  I  would  be  willing  to 
*    leave  Gray  &  Company  and  work  full  time  in  an  effort  to  help 
^    them  in  any  way  that  I  could. 

6  Q    Was  there  any  discussion  with  him  about  how  much  he 

7  would  pay  you  for  that? 

8  A    It  may  have  taken  place  there  or  just  when  we  got 

9  back  in  Washington,  but  a  decision  was  made  that  I  would  be 

10  paid  $2,500  a  month  and  most  of  my  expenses  for  whatever  trave 

11  that  I  incurred. 

12  Q    Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  at  this  time 

13  about  what  it  was  that  you  would  do  for  him? 

14  A    It  was  very  loosely  defined  and  it  was  doing 

15  anything  that  I  could  to  help  them  in  the  cause,  whether  it 

16  be  from  a  public  relation*  effort  to  providing  information 

17  to  keeping  track  of  things  here  in  Washington. 
16        Q    Did  you  also  have  conversations  down  there  with 
t9   Mr.  Calero  and  John  Hull? 

A    Yei,  I  had  been  talking  to  Mr.  Calero  some  time 
about  John  Hull  and  his  ability  or  his  knowledge  of  the  effort 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1  and 
Mr.  Calero  to  Mr.  Hull  at  that  meeting. 

Q    And  were  there  any  financial  _arran^^|^|^discussed 
between  the  two  of  them? 


650 


15 


A    They  discussed  about  Mr.  Calero  providing  Mr.  Hull 
with  funds  to  again  be  a  bridge  gap  for  the  effort  in  the 
South.   These  funds  would  provide  food  and  humanitarian 
goods  for  the  contras  in  the  South. 

Q    And  how  much  money  was  Calero  going  to  give  to  Hull 
in  order  to  help  with  the  humanitarian  assistance  in  the  South 
A    $10,000  a  month. 
®        Q    And  do  you  know  how  long  those  payments  lasted? 
®        A    I  believe  they  lasted  into  September,  possibly 
October  1985. 

Q    And  at  that  time  is  when  — 
'2         A    The  NHAL  funding  came  in. 

'3         Q    The  United  States  Government  humanitarian  assistance 
'*    began? 

15  A    Yes. 

16  Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  mid-November  of  1984 
•7    At  that  time,  did  you  take  a  trip  to  Central  America? 

18  A    Yes,  I  was  still  working  for  Gray  &  Company,  but  I 

19  ;   took  personal  leave.   Colonel  North  had  invited  me  over  to  his 

20  office  and  we  had  several  discussions,  and  he  provided  me  with 

21  pictures  and  also  maps  which  showed  the  gun  emplacements  aroun 

22  the  Augusto  Sandino  Airport  in  Managua,  Nicaragua,  and  he  aske 

23  me  to  take  this  material  down^^^^^^^^^Lind  give  it  to  Adolf 

24  Calero. 

25  Q    Do  you  know  where  Colonel  North  obtained  the  maps? 

*\u(i\  >coicicn 


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A    I  believe  it  was  from  the  CIA,  but  I  am  not  positive 
on  that. 

Q    What  did  Colonel  North  tell  you  about  where  he 
obtained  them,  if  anything? 

A    I  believe  he  may  have  said  he  got  it  from  across  th( 
river. 

Q    Did  he  mention  any  particular  individual's  name? 

A    No. 

Q    Did  he  ever  tell  you  who  it  was  across  the  river  wh 
provided  them  to  you? 

A    No,  not  at  this  time. 

Q    By  across  the  river,  did  you  understand  Langley, 
which  is  the  headquarters  for  the  CIA? 

A    I  Suspected  as  much. 

Q    Was  across  the  river  frequently  the  way  Colonel  Nor 
or  occasionally  the  way  Colonel  North  referred  to  the  CIA? 

A    It  was  either  across  the  river  or  up  the  river. 
It  varied. 

Q    And  what  was  the  purpose  of  taking  the  maps  down  to 
Calero? 

A    At  that  time,  the  information  had  come  in  that  the 
Soviets  had  provided  MI-24  helicopters  to  the  Sandinistas, 
and  they  were  being  put  together  at  the  Sandino  Airport  in 
Managua 


652 


1 

2 
3 

4 

^  ^^^^^^^  The  thought  was  that  the  FDN  could  undertake  a 

®  mission  with  their  push-and-pull  aircraft,  they  had  three  of 

^  them  at  the  time,  to  attack  the  Sandino  Airport  and  try  and 

®  destroy  some  of  the  MIG  24s,  excuse  me,  MI-24s,  before  they 

^  were  put  together  and  just  destroy  them  on  the  ground. 

'0  Q    Do  you  know  whether  such  a  mission  was  every 

"  attempted? 

'2  A    No,  a  decision  was  made  not  to  do  it.   It  would 

'3  have  probably  ended  up  in  a  suicide  mission. 

'4  Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  now  to  mid-February  9 

15  or  10  of  February  1985.   Did  you  take  additional  maps  down,  as 

16  best  you  recall,  take  additional  maps  down  to  Central  America 

17  at  that  time? 

18  A    Yes,  at  that  time  I  had  already  left  Gray  &  Company 

19  and  I  was  working  in  essence  full  time,  and  trying  to  help  the 

20  effort,  and  I  had  a  meeting  with  Colonel  North  and  he  asked  me 

21  to  take  a  trip  down  there  and  ferry  some  maps  and  other  things 

22  for  him. 

23  Q    And  did  you  obtain  maps  from  Colonel  North? 

24  A    Yes.   I  went  over  to  the  White  House  early  one  morn- 

25  ing,  and  to  the  Situation  Room,  and  he  showed  me  the  largest 

nmrn  AOPinrn 


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map  which  I  was  to  take  down,  but  it  was  stapled  or  already 
put  on,  I  guess  you  would  call  it  a  back-up  board  or  Styrofoam 
board. 

It  was  too  large  to  be  able  to  handle,  and  he  made 
a  comment,  well,  that  just  shows  the  incompetence  of  the  CIA. 

Q    Did  he  make  any  telephone  calls  to  anyoody? 

A    He  did.   He  said,  "Look,  why  don't  you  come  back 
this  afternoon  and  I  will  try  and  get  something.   I  will  call 
over  there  and  we  will  try  and  get  a  smaller  version." 

I  went  back,  I  believe  that  afternoon,  and  he  still 
did  not  come  through  with  the  new  version  that  they  wanted  me 
to  take,  and  picked  up  the  phone  again  and  called  over  the 
agency  and  asked  them  where  it  was. 

Q    Do  you  know  who  it  was  he  spoke  to  at  the  agency? 

A    I  believe  it  was| 

Q    Did  you  know^^^^^^^^BVposition  at  that  time? 

A    I  believe  I  knew  that  he  was  Director  of  the  Task 
Force  although  I  am  not  sure. 

Q    The  Central  American  Task  Force? 

A    Yes.   Actually,  at  that  time,  he  may  have  tried  to 
get^^^^^^^^^^^^^Lnd  he  might  not  have  been  available , 
he  may  have  talked  to  one  or  two  other  people  trying  to  get 
the  --  find  out  when  the  material  would  be  ready. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Could  I  have  this  marked  RO-3. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


654 


uiusiyeED 


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CO 


:::::^> 


I 

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(Whereupon,  RO  Exhibit  No.  3  was  marked 
for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Let  me  show  you  what  has  been  marked  RO-3,  which  is 
a  letter  that  begins,  "Dear  Friend." 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   I  am  sorry.   It  says  "My  friend." 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    "My  friend,"  thank  you. 

Based  on  the  contents  of  this  letter,  do  you  have  an 
opinion  about  who  it  was  sent  to  or  who  it  was  addressed  to? 

A    I  believe  it  would  have  been  addressed  to  Adolfo 
Calero  and  the  contents  of  the  letter  shows  that  I  may  have 
taken  it  down  with  me  on  that  February  trip,  because  at  that 
time  on  the  map  were  located  various  Sandinista  positions  and 
also  Lieutenant  Colonel  North  was  talking  about  the  need  for 
the  FDN  to  move  its  location  from^^^^^^^H'here  its  command 
location  was  to  another  locatior 


Q    There  was  handwriting  on  the  draft  which  I  have  just 
shown  you  marked  RO-3.   Do  you  recognize  the  handwriting? 
A    It  looks  like  Colonel  North's. 


655 


uni!U£^& 


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Q    There  is  a  paragraph  at  the  very  bottom  of  the  page 
making  a  reference  to  $20  million  being  deposited  in  the 
usual  account. 

Did  you  know  at  the  time  that  money  was  going  to  be 
deposited,  money  in  that  amount  was  going  to  be  deposited  into 
an  acoount? 

A    No,  but  I  believe  that  Colonel  North  told  me  to 
tell  Adolfo  that  funds  were  coming. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  tell  you  where  the  funds  were 
coming  from? 

A    No,  he  did  not. 

Q    Did  he  tell  you  that  the  funds  would  be  of  this 
magnitude? 

A    No,  he  didn't. 

Q    Are  you  learning  this  now  for  the  first  time? 

A    I  had  seen  that  document  before. 


656 


UNSiKSSntD 


21 


'        Q    On  page  2,  the  last  paragraph,  there  is  a  reference 

2  to  "my  British  friend  and  his  service  for  special  operations." 

*  'do  you  know  to  whom  he  is  referring  when  he  refers 

*  to  the  British  friend? 

5  A    No,  I  don't  know  the  individuals  by  name,  although 

6  on  one  occasion  in  one  of  my  meetings  with  Colonel  North  he 

7  discussed  how  he  did  have  sorre  —  I  should  say  made  reference 

8  to  the  fact  that  he  had  some  British  friends  who  were  doing 

9  some  special  operations  for  him. 

!0        Q    Did  he  tell  you  what  the  special  operations  were? 

11  A    At  that  time,  it  had  been  announced  in  the  newspaper 

12  that  there  had  been  several  explosions  in  downtown  Managua  and 

13  the  Sandinistas  were  trying  to  say  it  was  near  a  hospital  and 

14  they  were  just  minor  explosions,  but  then  he  mentioned  that 

15  some  of  his  friends  had  caused  them,  I  believe  it  was  an  ammu- 

16  nition  dump  to  be  blown  up. 

17  Q    And  he  indicated  to  you  that  his  British  friends  had 

18  done  that? 

19  A    Right. 

20  Q    Who  did  you  understand  the  British  friends  to  be? 

21  Were  they  official  British  military? 

22  A    I  had  no  idea.   I  didn't  pursue  it  with  him. 

23  Q    Was  it  your  understanding  that  — 

24  A    I  believe  at  one  time  he  may  have  said  they  were 
SAS. 


25 


UNCLASSIFIED 


657 


UKI)t<t!SWED 


22 


Q    In  fact,  there  is  a  reference  to  them  in  this 
letter  they  were  SAS;  is  that  correct? 

A    I  believe  so. 

Q    But  it  was  your  understanding  that  they  had  engaged 
in  this  — 

A    In  essence,  they  were  doing  some  contract  work. 

Q    For  Ollie  Ncth? 

A    That  is  my  summation. 

Q  Do  you  recall  when  you  returned  from  this  trip,  as 
best  you  now  recall,  when  you  returned  from  this  trip  with  a 
munitions  list  from  Mr.  Calero? 

A    I  believe  I  may  have,  yes. 

Q    And  I  take  it  there  were  occasions  that  you  do  recall 
returning  from  trips  to  Central  America  with  munitions  list? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  this  may  have  been  one  of  those  occasions? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Assuming  that  you  are  remembering  right  that  this 
was  one  of  those  occasions,  who  did  you  give  the  munitions 
list  to? 

A    Oliver  North. 

Q    And  do  you  recall  anything  about  this  particular 
munitions  list,  what  was  on  it,  what  was  requested? 

A    No,  other  than  it  was  small  arms  ammunition,  and 
at  the  time  the  FDN  was  in  need  of  everything,  mortar  rounds, 


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vmmm 


23 


M-79,  anununition,  and  just  things  that  they  would  need  to 
continue  their  operations. 

Q    Did  you  discuss  the  list  with  Colonel  North? 

A    I  just  gave  it  to  him  and  went  over  it  briefly  with 
him,  that  is,  if  this  was  the  occasion  that  I  brought  them 
back.   There  were  several  times  and  I  just  can't  remember  the 
dates. 

Q    Did  you  also  go  down  to  Costa  Rica  in  late  February 
and  early  March  of  1985? 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  went  down  at  the  request  of  Colonel 
North.   This- was  going  to  be  the  first  meeting  of  all  the 
Nicaraguan  opposition  groups,  and  out  of  this  came  the  San  Jos 
accords  on  March  1,  and  that  was  when  Adolfo  Calero,  Alfonzo 
Robello,  and  Arturo  Cruz  came  together  and  said  they  would  mov 
forward  in  a  united  effort  to  bring  democracy  to  Nicaragua. 

Q    And  did  anyone  else  from  the  United  States  go 
down  there? 

A    Frank  Gomez,  IBC,  International  Business  Communica- 
tion, and  Jo4inathan  Miller  of  the  State  Department  were  also 
there. 

Q    And  while  down  there,  did  you  have  communications 
with  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  kept  him  informed  as  I  heard  things 
so  that  he  would  be  aware  of  it,  and  then  when  he  had  question 
I  know  that  he  got  in  touch  with  the 


659 


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A    Yes.   There  was  a  problem  because  President  Monge 
decided  to  expel  Adolfo  Calero  from  Costa  Rica  before  they 
could  have  their  new  conference,  and  that  was  a  concern  that 
that  would  not  talte  place,  so  you  could  not  get  the  press 
coverage  that  everyone  had  hoped  to  come  out  of  this. 

Q    nid  Colonel  North  relay  instructions  back  to  you 
about  how  to  deal  with  situations  that  came  up  during  the 
course  of  the  conference? 

A    With  some  things,  I  just  kept  in  touch  with  Miller 
and  Gomez  and  also  Adolfo  Calero. 

Q  Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  March  of  198  5. 
Did  there  come  a  time  in  March  of  1985  when  you  provided 
money  tol 

A    Yes. 

Q    Do  you  know  the  circumstances  behind  you  having  to 
provide  him  with  funds? 

A    It  may  have  been  in  March  or  it  might  have  been 
early  April.   I  am  not  sure  which  it 


660 


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Q    And  as  a  result  of  that,  you  provided  him  with 
funds? 

A    On  one  occasion,  I  was  in  Colonel  North's  office 
and  he  provided  me  with  Travelers  Checks  which  he  asked  me 
to  change  into  cash  so  that  I  could  then  turn  around  and  pro- 
vide that  to^^^^^^^^^^fas  a  payment. 

Q    Did  you  see  on  this  occasion  or  other  occasion  where 
he  obtained  the  Travelers  Checks  from? 

A    Yes.   He  pulled  them  out  of,  I  believe  it  was  the 
bottom  drawer  in  his  safe  in  his  office. 

Q    It  was  a  safe  that  was  actually  in  his  office? 

A    Yes,  sir. 

Q    And  on  this  occasion,  or  on  other  occasions,  did 
he  comment  to  you  whose  safe  it  had  been  previously? 

A    Yes.   We  had  a  laugh  because  it  was  the  same  safe 
where  the  thousand  dollars  that  former  National  Security 
Adviser  Dick  Allen  had  kept. 

Q    Do  you  know  where  Colonel  North  obtained  the 
Travelers  Checks  from? 

A    There  was  a  system,  my  understanding  is  there  was  a 
system  set  up  between  him  and  Adolfo  Calero  and  that  Adolfo 
Calero  would  bring  Travelers  Checks  up  to  him  as  needed. 

Q    Did  you  ever  carry  Travelers  Checks  from  Calero  to 
North? 

A    No,  I  did  not,  but  on  occasion  I  did  tell  Adolfo 


661 


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Calero  that  Colonel  North  needed  some  new  funding. 

Q    Was  anyone  else  involved  in  providing  this  money 
to^^^^ 

A    Because  there  was  either  six  or  seven  thousand 
dollars  that  had  to  be  changed  into  dollars  from  Travelers 
Checks,  he  asked  Jonathan  Miller,  who  at  that  time  was  doing 
some  work  with  him,  to  change  part  of  them  into  Travelers 
Checks,  excuse  me,  change  part  of  the  Travelers  Checks  into" 
dollars. 

Q    And  Jonathan  Miller  did  that? 
A    Yes,  he  did. 
Q    Where  did  — 

MS.  BENSON:   Could  I  ask  just  one  question.   Whose 
name  was  on  the  Travelers  Checks? 

THE  WITNESS:   They  were  always  blanks  and  then  we 
would  fill  in  the  names.   In  this  case,  we  had  to  use  our  own 
names  to  cash  them. 

MS.  BENSON:   So  you  would  use  Robert  Owen? 
THE  WITNESS:   I  would  use  Robert  Owen.   Unfortunate  1 
I  wasn't  provided  with  any  false  identification,  or  fortunatel 
as  the  case  may  be. 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Or  fortunately,  yes. 

And  where  did  you  provide  the  money  to 
A    I  set  up  appointments  and  he  came  over  to  my 


yiLAssra 


662 


e 

9 

10 
It 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
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22 
23 
24 
25 


UNSStSSfflED 


27 


Q    Was  Jonathan  Miller  there? 

2  A    No,  he  was  not. 

3  Q    In  or  about  March  of  1985,  did  you  also  provide 
.         money  tc 

-        A    Yes.   I  was  asked  to  meet^^^^^^^^|as  a  matter  of 
g    fact,  I  picked  him  up  outside  the  Old  Executive  Building, 
_    and  we  went  for  a  ride  and  had  a  conversation  and  I  did  provid 

him  with  some  cash  at  that  time.   Actually,  they  may  have  been 
Travelers  Checks;  I  just  can't  remember. 

Q    Do  you  remember  the  approximate  amount  of  money 
that  he  provided  you? 

A  A  couple  thousand  dollars.  I  can't  remember;  maybe 
3,000,  2,000. 

Q    And  where  did  you  obtain  the  money  provided  you? 

A    From  Colonel  North 

Q    Did  you  see  him  on  that  occasion,  if  you  recall, 
take   it  out  of  the  same  safe? 

A  Yes,  he  did.  I  might  add  that  he  kept  very  careful 
records.  Whenever  he  would  take  funds  out,  he  would  write  it 
down  so  that  he  knew  where  his  money  was  going 

Q    Do  you  recall  having  a  conversation  with 
at  the  time  that  you  provided  him  with  the  money  about  addi- 
tional funding  that  may  be  available? 

A    Yes,  it  was  the  hope  at  that  time  —  excuse  me, 
that  all  the  democratic  opposition  could  be  unite 


nMPI  AQQiClFH 


663 


1 

2 
3 
4 
S 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
II 
12 
t3 
14 
15 
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25 


wmm 


28 


There  was  an  effort  that  was  being  undertaken  to 
try  and  bring  all^^^^^^^^^^^^^^together  under  one  umbrell. 
organization  as  had  been  done  with  the  Nicaraguan  opposition 
through  the  San  Jose  Accords,  and  I  was  asked  to  relate  to 

:hat  if  he  was  willing  to  come  together  in  a  unity 
agreement,  he  would  be  provided  with  more  funds  to  help  sus- 
tain his  effort. 

At  this  til 


lis  time  the 

March  or  April  vote  was  coming  up,  and  so  the  thought  was  that 
he  would  be  cible  to  bring  some  more  Members  of  Congress  over 
to  support  the  aid  package. 

Q    But  in  general,  you  indicated  to  him  that  if  he  were 
to  join  the  other  forces,  that  additional  funding  would  be 
available  to  him? 
A    Yes. 

Can  I  just  interrupt? 
(Discussion  off  the  record. ) 


KlASSIFIEn 


664 


20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


OlifamED 


29 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    In  late  March  of  1985,  did  you  take  another  trip 
to  Central  America? 

A     Yes,  I  took  a  tr;i£^^^^^^^^^^^^|where  I  provided 

etween  two  and 

three  thousand  dollars  in  Travelers  Checks,  and  this  was  to 
help         his^^^^^^Hof  £  ice  ^^^^^^^^^H  This      from 
March  20  to  March  24. 
Q    Of  1985? 
A    Of  1985,  yes,  sir. 

Q    And  again  on  this  occasion,  you  obtained  the  • 
Travelers  Checks  from  Colonel  North's  safe? 
A    Yes. 

Or  Colonel  North  obtained  them  from  his  safe? 

Yes. 

And  did  you  provide  them  as  cash  or  as  Travelers 


Q 
A 
Q 

Checks? 
A 

CStecks. 
0 
A 


I  think  in  this  case,  I  provided  it  in  Travelers 


And  again  they  would  have  been  blank? 

They  would  have  been  blank,  yes,  sir.   They  were 
all  drawn  up  to  one  or  two  different  banks  in  Miami. 

0    And  during  the  years  of  this  trip,  the  20th  to  the 
24th  of  March  198  5,  did  you  have  an  occasion  to  observe  a 
plane  at  Mr.  Hull's  farm? 


UNCUSSIHEO 


665 


0 


30 


1  A    Yes,  I  was  visiting  with  Mr.  Hull,  and  he  got  a 

2  radio  call  from  one  of  his  farms  saying  that  a  plane  had  landec 

3  there  and  they  were  trying  to  find  another  airstrip,  but  they 
*        didn't  know  how  to  get  there  and  so  John  Hull  and  myself  and 

5  two  others  flew  up  to  the  airstrip. 

6  The  plane  was,  I  believe,  an  islander  which  at  one 

7  time  had  been  part  of  Pastora's  Air  Force,  and  it  was  flown  by 

8  I  believe,  two  Nicaraguans  and  there  was  also  a  Cuban  on  board 

9  and  they  said  they  were  flying  in  fromi 

10  ^B^H^^Hanc^  that  they  were  trying  to  find  Rene  Corvo,  who 

11  had  set  up  this  delivery  process. 

12  I  did  not  look  in  the  plane  to  see  whether  there  wer< 

13  arms  on  it  or  not,  and  I  did  not  really  ask.   They  did  say  it 

14  was  some  military  supplies  that  they  were  bringing  in. 

15  We  subsequently  took  off  and  Hull  flew  them  to  the 

16  airfield  that  they  were  supposed  to  go  to,  where  the  plane  was 

17  then  unloaded,  but  I  did  not  watch  the  unloading  or  find  out 

18  necessarily  what  was  on  the  plane.   It  was  serendipity  that  I 

19  happened  to  be  there  at  the  same  time. 

20  Q    MR.  EGGLESTON:   Let  me  have  this  marked  RO-4 . 

(Whereupon,  RO  Exhibit  No.  4 

was  marked  for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    This  is  a  memo  to  the  Hammer  from  TC,  subject, 
"Southern  Front."   It  is  a  memorandum  dated  April  1,  198  5,  and 


666 


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e 

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mmms 


31 


it  was  provided  to  the  committees  prusuant  to  the  subpoenas 
that  were  issued  to  you  and  provided  after  the  immunity  order 
was  conveyed  upon  you. 

On  page  2  of  the  document,  there  is  a  reference  to 
various  weapons.   The  document  is  generally  about  the 
Southern  Front  and  the  need  to  augment  the  Southern  Front, 
and  on  page  2,  there  are  references  that  I  have  now  yellowed, 
references  to  providing  weapons. 
A    Yes. 

Part  of  this  comes  from  a  meeting  that  I  attended 
here  in  Washington,  D.C.  It  was  with  three  or  four  members 
of  the  Southern  Front,  headed  by  a  fellow  by  the  name  of 

He  and  his  compatriots  had  come  to  Washington 
in  the  hopes  of  meeting  with  Colonel  North. 

As  the  Colonel  didn't  want  to  meet  with  him,  he 
asked  me  to  meet  with  him.   I  did.   I  had  met 
198  3  when  I  first  visitedB^^H^^^Hso  he  did  know  me. 

On  it  was  a  list  --  excuse  me,  included  in  the  packe 
is  a  paper  that  had  been  put  together  to  help  start  a  new 
Southern  Front,  and  this  I  provided  to  Colonel  North. 
Q    Also  attached  to  this  document  is  a  list  of 
munitions;  is  that  correct? 

A  Yes.  This  list  is  their  current  inventory  that  the; 
had  or  that  they  knew  of.  As  you  can  see,  it  is  not  very  mucf 
47-AKs,  7  FALS,  and  4  M-4s  and  18  SKs . 


I 


ONCUSSIFIE 


667 


I 

2 
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Hd 


32 


Q    And  did  you  provide  this  memorandum  and  its  attach- 
ments to  Colonel  North? 
A    Yes,  I  did. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  did  you  write  a  memorandum  following  a 
trip  in  March  of  1985  to  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes,  I  wrote  one  dated  March  26,  in  which  I  told 

him  about  the  ^"^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 

^^l^^^lknd  discussed  the  problem  with  that,  and  there  seemed 
to  be  no  knowledge  of  people^^^^^^^Habout  this  coming 
in,  and  it  was  being  handled  in  a  haphazard  way,  and  it  seemed 
to  have  been  an  operation  being  run  by  a  Cuban  by  the  name 
of  Rene. 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  mid-April  of  1985. 
Did  you  have  occasion  at  that  time  to  take  another  trip  to 


A    Yes,  on  April  13. 

Q    And  during  the  course  of  that  trip,  did  you  provide 

an  update  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^BIH^^^H 

A    It  was  an  update  of  the  maps.   The  potential 
for  a  Sandinista  offensive  to  take  place,  Colonel  North  was 
concerned  about  that.   The  maps  that  I  carried  showed  the 
prep  locations  of  the  Sandinista  military  around  the  border, 
where  the  potential  offensive  was  going  to  come,  and  there  was 


668 


ix^wriri 


CI'XtVIIlMI 


1 

2 
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33 


a  suggestion  where^^^^^^^^^^^^^^lcould  move  his  troops. 

Q    Had  you  obtained  those  maps  from  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Do  you  know  where  Oliver  North  had  obtained  the 
maps? 

A    No.   I  suspect  it  was  probably  from  the  CIA.   I 
gave  --  when ^^^^^^^^^^1/  I  gave  the  maps 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  generally  to  April  of 
1985.   Do  you  recall  providing  money  to^^^^^^^^^^at  that 
time? 

A    Yes,  it  was  about  that  time  he  was  in  town,  and  I 
provided  some  funds  for  him  for  living  expenses  while  he  was 
here. 

Q    Do  you  recall  approximately  how  much  money  that  was? 

A    It  may  have  just  been  a  few  hundred  dollars.   I 
think  there  was  another  time  that  I  may  have  provided  him  with 
some  $1,200  that  he  was  owed. 

Q    You  think  it  was  not  this  occasion,  though,  in 
April  of  198  5? 

A    It  may  have  been  one  other  time  when  he  was  up  here. 
I  just  don't  remember  when.   I  am  sorry,  let  me  just  go  back. 
I  said  that  I  provided  the  maps  to] 
is  that  right? 
MR.  HYLDEN:   You  saidi 
THE  WITNESS:   It  was 


669 


CfetSI^H) 


34 


CO 


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BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    This  was  a  trip  that  you  had  taken  tol 
A    Right 

Q    Again  the  money  that  you  provided  to 
obtained  that  money,  I  take  it,  from  Colonel  North? 
A    Yes,  I  did. 

Q    in  16  to  19  May  of  1985,  you  again  took  a  trip  to 
is  that  correct?  ^^^^^^^^^^^ 
At  that  time.^^^^^^V^as 
about  some  of  his  people.   He  had  a  number  of  wounded,  so  we 
were  told,  inside  Nicaragua.   He  wanted  to  get  them  out.  Thi: 
was  brought  to  our  attention  b^-*^^^^^^^^^^^^*^  ° 
representative  in  Washington. 

I  had  several  meetings  with  Colonel  North,  and 
Johnathan  Miller  about  how  to  set  up,  in  essence,  an  evacuati 
of  those  people.   It  was  decided  that  I  would  take  funds  down 
to  buy  gasoline.   We  had  arranged  for  a  motor  to  be  purchased 
for  them  down^^^^^^-   They  aire adjMja^  boat . 

And  so  I  went  down,  met  with ^^^^|  Provided 
funds,  and  he  had  already  been  provided  with  an  outboard  moto 

for  their  boat. 

Q    Approximately  how  much  money  did  you  provide  to 

n  this  occasion? 

think  between  funds  and  goods  that  were  purchased 
round  seven  to  eight  thousand  dollars. 


670 


atmt 


teamM^tfi   mei-t    r  iMi 


mmm 


35 


1 

2 

3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
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13 

Idd  ends/#l        ,^ 

md   fls/#la  .. 

16 
17 
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25 


Q    Do  you  recall  in  what  form  you  provided  him  with 
the  money? 

A    I  believe  it  was  in  Travelers  Checks,  and  he  was 
rather  upset  because  it  was  difficult  for  him  to  cash  Travelers 
Checks  i 

Q    Again,  you  obtained  the  Travelers  Checks  from 
Colonel  North? 

A    Right. 

Q    Let  me  show  you  what  I  would  like  to  have  marked 
RO-5. 

(Whereupon,  RO  Exhibit  No.  5 
was  marked  for  identification.) 


yNCUSSIHED 


671 


md    1 
la 


^^»        20 


21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


mmmi 


36 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Let  me  show  what  has  been  marked  as  RO-5  and  ask  you 
whether  this  two-page  document  or  three-page  document,  first 
is  page  1,  in  your  handwriting,  and  secondly,  what  is  the 
document  that  is  attached  to  it? 

A     It  is  my  handwriting.   It  is  a  list  fromj 
land  his  peoole  as  far  as  what  they  needed,  what  they 
felt  they  needed  to  supply  their  men  with  arms  and  uniforms. 

Pages  2  and  3  is  the  list,  runs  everything  from 
boats  to  munitions  to  mortars  to  boots  and  uniforms. 
0    And  you  got  this  list  fromi 

A    Yes.   At  the  time,  we  were  trying  to  develop  a  way 
that  we  could  supply  his  people.   The  thought  was  that  it  woulc 
be  easier  to  supply  his  peopl< 
because  the  travel  time! 

there  was  a  problem  that  exisi 


Q  What  did  you  do  with  the  list? 

A  I  gave  it  to  Colonel  North. 

Q  And  did  you  discuss  it  with  Colonel  North? 

A  I  believe  I  would  have  gone  over  it,  yes. 

0  What  was  your  understanding  that  Colonel  North  would 
do  with  a  list  like  this? 

A  Colonel  North  was  in  essence  at  times  the  quarter- 
master for  the  effort,  and  when  various  equipment  was  needed, 


672 


CO 


md  2 

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•.mum 


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it  would  usually  be  discussed  with  him  or  asked  how  he  could 
supply  the  assistance. 

Q    And  it  was  then  North,  it  was  your  understanding  that 
North  would  figure  out  a  wav  to  provide  the  weapons?  j 

A     Yes.   In  this  case,  I  don't  think  we  ever  did, 
were  able  to  provide  them. 

Q     Do  you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of 

A     Y6 


Did  you,  in  the  spring  of  1985,  provide  money  to 


A    Yes.   At  some  point,  I  believe  it  may  have  been  in 
April,  I  got  a  call  from  Colonel  North  to  come  over  to  his 
office,  where  he  then  provided  me  an  envelope  which  had  funds 
which  he  wanted  me  to  pass  on  to^^^^^^^^^^^H^  who  was 
in  town. 

Q    Did  you  do  so? 

A    Yes,  I  did. 

Q    On  this  occasion  you  provided  it,  you  obtained 
cash  from  Colonel  North? 

A    I  believe  it  may  have  been  a  combination  of  cash 
and  traveler's  checks. 

Q    Did  you  cash  the  traveler's  checks? 

A     No. 

Q    So,  whatever  Colonel  North  gave  you  is  what  you 


673 


CO 


md3 

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provided  tc 

A    That  is  right. 

Q    And  where  did  you  give  the  money  to? 

A    It  was  on  a  rainy  evening,  and  I  stood  outside 
17th  Street,  across  from  the  Old  Executive  Office  Building. 
A  car  pulled  up,  and  the  window  was  rolled  down,  and  I  say 
it  was^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand  provided  him  with  the  funds. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him? 

A    No.   There  was  another  American  who  was  with  him,  whc 
I  recognized  and  just  said  hello  to. 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  early  June  of  1985. 
In  early  June,  did  you  have  occasion  to  have  conversations  wit! 
General  Singlaub? 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  flew  from  Washington  to  Denver  and 
I  drove  up  to  his  home  in  Tabernash.   He  asked  me  to  come  out 
for  a  series  of  meetings  he  was  having,  and  at  that  time  also, 
he  was  putting  the  final  touches  on  the  purchase  of  a  large 
quantity  of  arms  for  the  FDN. 

Q    And  on  whose  instructions  did  you  fly  to  Denver? 

A    It  was  a  combination,  in  talking  with  General 
Singlaub  and  also  talking  with  Colonel  North. 

Q    What  was  your  understanding  about  what  you  were  goin< 
to  do  in  the  meeting  with  General  Singlaub? 

A    It  was  to  sit  in  on  the  meeting  he  was  having  with 
several  people  who  were  coming  to  see  him,  and  then  also  assis 


82-726  0-88-23 


674 


UlliHi&SSIBED 


39 


I 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 

to 
n 

12 
13 
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him  in  any  way  that  I  might  be  able  to. 

Q    And  the  assistance  you  were  providing  was  with  regard 
to  an  arms  transaction? 

A    It  turned  out  that  he  had  to  get  some  finalized 
figures  from  Adolfo  Calero.   At  the  time,  Adolfo  Calero  was 
giving  a  speech  in  San  Francisco,  the  next  day,  so  I  flew  to 
San  Francisco  and  had  a  meeting  with  Adolfo. 

Q    Who  were  the  other  people  that  General  Singlaub  was 
meeting  with  in  his  home? 

A    He  was  meeting  with  Colonel  Bob  Brown  of  Soldier 
of  Fortune  Magazine,  and  several  of  his  compatriots.   I  know 
some  of  the  names  and  some  I  don't  remember  now.   Do  you  want 
the  rest  of  them? 

Q    No,  that  is  okay.   Did  you  then  fly  to  San  Francisco 
and  meet  with  Mr.  Calero? 

A    Yes,  I  did. 

Q    And  the  purpose  of  that  trip  was  to  discuss? 

A    To  go  over  the  final  quantities  of  arms  that  were 
going  to  be  purchased  through  General  Singlaub. 

Q    Did  you  take  a  list  with  you? 

A    I  did  take  a  list,  yes,  sir. 

Q    And  did  you,  in  fact,  meet  with  Calero  and  go  over 
the  list? 

A    Yes.   He  was  in  a  rush.   He  and  I  ended  up  sitting 
in  the  back  seat  of  a  car  that  was  driven  by,  I  believe,  Richar 


675 


mmm 


40 


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2 

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25 


Ainsworth  and  someone  else  was  in  the  front  seat.   I  had  a  yelljc 
legal  pad  with  a  listing  of  all  the  munitions  that  were  going 
to  be  Durchased  on  it,  and  we  went  through  it  one  by  one  to 
see  if  those  were  the  correct  quantities  that  he  wanted. 

Q    And  during  the  course  of  driving  around  in  a  car, 
did  you  have  occasion  to  call  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes,  we  stopped  by  a  pay  phone,  and  I  had  talked  with 
Colonel  North  earlier  in  the  day  and  he  asked  me  to  be  sure 
to  have  Adolf o  call  him.   I  got  out,  placed  the  phone  call, 
talked  to  him  a  few  minutes,  gave  the  phone  to  Adolf o   and 
then  they  had  a  conversation. 

Q    Did  you  call  him  at  the  OEOB? 

A     Yes. 

Q    And  did  you  hear  Calero's  half  of  the  conversation? 

A    He  was  talking  about,  I  believe  he  was  talking  about 
some  new  purchases  that  he  needed  and  some  funding. 

Q    New  purchases  of  what? 

A    Possibly  some  arms.   I  am  not  sure  that  he  mentioned 
the  terra  arms  over  the  phone.   We  had  always  tried  to  talk 
somewhat  in  codes,  so  whoever  was  listening  wouldn't  quite 
be  able  to  understand  it,  but  if  they  had  any  common  sense, 
they  probably  could. 

Q    But  it  was  your  understanding  the  conversation  was 

about  an  arms  requirement? 

A    Parly.   There  were  other  things  that  were  discussed. 
A 


676 


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is^ 

^ 

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Q    After  the  meeting  with  Calero  and  going  over  the 
list,  you  then  communicated  with  General  Singlaub? 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  provided  him  with  the  final  list 
of  what  it  was  that  Adolf o  wanted.   We  had  a  code  worked  out 
that  we  could  do  over  the  phone. 

Q    Do  you  recall  the  approximate  total  value  of  this 
shipment,  of  this  amount  of  arms? 

A    Somewhere  between  5  and  $5.5  million. 

C    And  just  generally  and  quickly,  do  you  remember  what 
was  called  for? 

^^^^^^Hak-47s  .^^^^^^^^Brounds  of  ammunition, 
I  think^^^^^^^^renades .   One  of  the  questions  that  General 
Singlaub  had  was  about  the  purchase  of  some  SA-7s.   He  believed 
he  had  a  good  deal  on  them.   Adolfo  felt  it  would  be  too 
expensive,  and  also  at  this  time,  he  was  trying  to  get  the 
British  Blowpipe. 

Q    Did  you  receive  a  gift,  or  was  a  gift  received 
during  the  course  of  this  trip? 

A    I  brought  a  gift  to  Adolfo  Calero  from  Jack  Singlaub. 
It  was  a  Brazilian  hand  grenade  which  had  been  hollowed  out, 
and  a  Zippo  lighter  had  been  put  in  it. 

One  of  the  scary  things  was  that  I  walked  through 
the  Denver  Airport  and  I  never  set  off  the  alarm. 

Q    After  returning  to  Washington  in  early  June,  after 
this  transaction  involving  General  Singlaub,  did  you  discuss 


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the  deal  with  Colonel  North? 

A  Yes,  I  went  in  and  had  a  meeting  with  him  and  went 
over  the  list.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  provided  him  the  same 
list  that  I  had  gone  over  with  Adolf o  Calero. 

Q    And  so,  it  was  a  list  that  totaled  about  $5.2 
million,  or  between  $5  and  $5.5  million? 

A  Right,  and  a  discussion  took  place  about  the  SA-7s 
and  the  British  Blowpipes  and  so  forth. 

Q    What  was  the  discussion  about  the  SA-7s  and  the 
British  Blowpipes? 

A    At  the  time.  Colonel  North  was  trying  to  get  some 
blowpipes,  or  had  potential  access  to  getting  some  SA-7s 
that  I  thought  he  might  be  able  to  get  at  a  less  expensive 
cost. 

Q    In  mid-June,  about  June  8  of  1985,  did  you  fly  to 
Miami  with  Colonel  North? 

A    No,  I  flew  down  the  day  before.   I  was  asked  to  go 
down  and  rent  several  rooms  at  the  hotel  at  the  airport  of 
Miami  International.   He  was  coming  down  for  a  meeting  with 
Adolfo  Calero,  Alfonso  Robello  and  Arturo  Cruz,  and  I  was 
asked  to  set  up  for  that  meeting,  and  he  flew  in  on  Saturday 
night  around  12:30  p.m.  —  or  a.m.,  excuse  me,  and  then 
I  put  him  on  a  flight  that  left  towards  Atlanta  at  5:00  a.m. 

Q    And  did  a  meeting  take  £lfce_with  Colonel  North  and 
others? 


meeting  take  place  with 

UNCLASSIFIED 


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A    Yes.   There  was  Colonel  North  was  there,  along 
with  Alfonso  Robello,  Arturo  Cruz  and  Adolfo  Calero  and 
Jonathan  Miller  was  also  in  attendance  with  me. 

Q    And  what  was  the  purpose  of  the  meeting?  What  was 
discussed? 

A    The  meeting  was  to  go  forward  in  discussing  the 
unity  amongst  all  the  groups,  in  setting  up  UNO. 
(Discussion  off  the  record.) 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    During  the  course  of  this  trip,  did  you  provide 
any  money  to  any  contras? 

A    I  ended  up  staying  several  days  longer  in  Miami, 
where  I  had  a  series  of  meetings  with  various  representatives 
of  the  Indian  factions.   At  the  time,  we  were  trying  to 
encourage  a  unity  meeting  amongst  the  Indians  in  Miami,  where 
they  would  get  together  and  discuss  a  program,  to  put  together  .  T 
an  assembly,  either^^^^^^^^^^or    the| 
border,  where  they  would  elect  a  new  leadership,  and  I  did 
have  some  funds  that  I  provided  to^^^^^^^^^Bfor  living 
expenses . 

Q    And  how  much  money  was  that? 

A    $2500  to  $3,000,  somewhere  along  there,  I  think. 

Q    And  where  did  you  obtain  that  money? 

A    From  Colonel  North. 

Q    And  in  what  form  did  you  provide  the  money  to; 


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A    Traveler's  checks. 

Q    Did  you  provide  it  in  traveler's  checks? 

A     I  believe  so,  yes.   It  was  also  either  at  that  time 
or  before  that,  I  had  a  meeting  with^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand  one 
of  the  othej^^^^|^n.eaders ,  and  I  placed  a  call  ^°^^^^^^^^| 
^^^Hto  ^^^^^^^^^^^^Hto  try         them  on         terms, 
and  try  to  have^^^^^^^^attend  this  meeting,  and  he 
subsequently  did  come  up  to  Miami  for  the  meetings. 

If  I  may  add,  I  may  have  taken  a  day  trip  down 
later  the  next  week  to  provide  more  funds.   I  don't  remember, 
but  I  don't  think^^^^^^^^had  come  at  that  time,  and  I 
ended  up  going  down  to  provide  some  money  for^^^^^^^^^^H 

Q    Providing  money  to^^^^^^^Hin  a  separate  trip. 

A    Right,  or  money  to^^^^^^Hplus  to  some  of  the 
others,  an  additional  fund,  but  we  were  in  essence  trying 
to  support  them  while  they  were  here  going  through  their 
meetings. 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  late  August  of  1985. 
Did  you  travel  to  Costa  Rica  at  that  time? 

A    Yes,  I  did. 

Q    And  what  was  the  purpose  of  traveling  to  Costa  Rica 
in  late  August? 

A    I  was  asked  to  go  down  on  behalf  of  Colonel  North 
to  meet  withi 


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discuss  the  establishment  of  an  airfield  that  could  be  used 
to  resupply  the  democratic  resistance. 

Q    And  Colonel  North  asked  you  to  take  the  trip? 

A    Yes,  he  did. 

Q    And  who  in  Costa  Rica  did  you  discuss  this  with? 

A    I  was  met  by  cne^^^Kt  the  airport,  and  I 
subsequently  had  some  meetings  with  him,  and  then  I  also  had 
a  meeting,  I  believe,  with  Ambassador  Tambs ,  and  the 
and  I  met  with 

Q    And  the  purpose  was  to  discuss  where  to  obtain,  where 
to  place  the  air  strip? 

A    Yes,  it  was.   There  were  two  openings  at  the  time, 
and  they  had  pretty  much  settledon  one,  and  we  discussed  this 
w  i  t  h^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K  r  r  a  n  g  e  d 
fly  out  the  next  morning  by  helicopter  to  do  a  survey  of  the 
site. 

Q    And  did  you? 

A    Yes,  I  did,  and  I  took  pictures  and  brought  them  back, 

Q    Was  there  discussion  about  using  offshore  accounts  ana 
companies  in  order  to  establish  the  airfield? 

A    Yes,  we  discussed  what  kind  of  cover  operation  could 
be  established,  so  that  we  would  not  draw  too  much  attention. 
The  thought  was  to  set  up  a  Panamanian  company  if  one  didn't 
already  exist,  and  have  the  property  either  purchased  or 
rented  by  several  Americans  who  would  be  establishing  either  an 


681 


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agricultural  testing  center  or  for  some  other  means  to  use  it 

as  a  cover. 

Q    And  did  you  discuss  this  concept  with  Colonel  North: 
A    Upon  my  return,  I  provided  the  pictures  and  providec 

a  memo  to  the  Colonel  on  the  establishment  of  the  airfield. 
Q    And  that  is  the  memorandum  that  you  provided  to  us 

that  is  dated  .;.ugust  25,  1985? 
A    Yes. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  further  dealings  with  this  airfield 
A    I  had  some,  but  a  decision  was  made  at  that  time  to 

take  me  off  the  account.   NHAO  was  about  the  be  formed,  and 

the  thought  was  that  it  would  be  best  to  have  me  become 


Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  late  August  or  earl^ 
September  of  1985.   Did  you  have  a  conversation  with  Colonel 
North  abou^^^^^^Bat  that  time? 

A  There  had  been  a  series  of  discussions  going  on  for 
quite  a  while  about  trying  to  raise  money  f rom^^^^^Bcountrie 
I  was  asked  to  come  in  and  see  him,  and  asked  to  pay  a  visit 


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Q    And  were  you  given  anything  to  take  with  you? 

A    Yes,  I  was  given  an  envelope  which  had  a  foreign 
bank  account  number  on  it. 

Q    Do  you  know  where  the  bank  account  was? 

A    I  believe  it  was  Switzerland. 

Q    And  you  know  this  not  because  you  saw  it  in  the 
envelope,  but  because  Colonel  North  told  you  what  was  in  the 
envelope? 

A    Right. 

Q    And  did  you,  in  fact,  give  it  to  the  representative 
of^^^" 

A    Yes,  I  did.   I  had  a  meeting  with  him,  and  provided 
him  with  that  envelope,  and  thanked  him  very  much  for  whatever 
he  could  do  to  help. 

Q    Who  was  the  individual? 

A    It 

Q 

A 

Q    Did  you  have  a  conversation  with  the  representative? 

A    Yes,  it  was  a  brief  conversation.   We  talked  about 
what  was  in  the  envelope,  and  the  need  for  it,  and  also  how 
much  it  was  appreciated.   I  believe  in  the  conversation,  he  die 


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say  that  he  had  several  conversations  with  Colonel  North,  and 
also  Gaston  Sigur  may  have  come  up. 

Q    Was  the  conversation  about  the  contras? 

A    It  was  in  essence,  and  it  was  also  talking  about 
their  need  and  how  our  government  certainly  would  appreciate 
whatev^er  assistance  they  could  provide. 

Q    What  other  — 

A    I  will  add  that  when  I  did  go,  I  did  say  that  I  was 
not  a  formal  representative  of  the  United  States  Government, 
that  I  was  a  private  individual. 

Q    What  other^^^^^^^^^w:ountries  were  mentioned  as 
being  possible  sources  of  funds  for  the  contras? 

A 

Q    Any  others  that  you  recall? 

A    No.   Subsequently,  I  heard  ^^^^^^^Hwas  one,  too. 

Q    These  are  in  conversations  that  you  had  with  Colonel 
North,  I  take  it,  where  other  countries  were  mentioned? 

A    Yes.   Also,  General  Singlaub  had  been  actively 
trying  to  solicit  assistance. 

Q    Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  September  and  Octobe 
of  1985.   It  is  my  understanding  from  prior  conversations  with 
you  that  you  took  three  trips  to  New  York  in  or  about  that 
time  in  order  to  obtain  money. 

Could  you  just  very  briefly  describe  each  of  those 
three  trips,  on  whose  instructions  you  took  the  trip,  and  the 


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logistics  for  the  trip? 

A    Again,  I  had  several  conversations  with  Oliver  North. 
One  time,  I  was  called  in  and  asked  to  go  to  New  York  to  pick 
up  a  packet  from  him.   He  put  me  on  the  phone  with  Mr.  Copp. 

Q    C-o-p-p? 

A    C-o-p-p.   Who  I  knew  was  General  Secord,  and  he 
gave  me  instructions.   I  few  to  New  York.   I  then  called  Copp 
to  get  the  final  instructions,  and  on  two  occasions,  I  went  to 
a  bank,  and  was  given  a  name  of  a  person  to  go  see,  and  then  I 
was  handed  an  envelope.   Once  I  did  see  them,  I  said  who  I  was 
from. 

Q    When  you  said  where  you  were  from  — 

A    I  believe  I  said  you  are  expecting  me,  I  am  from 
Mr.  Copp.   I  believe  I  used  Mr.  Copp's  name. 

Q    And  on  another  occasion,  you  obtained  money  not  from 
a  bank,  but  from  another  place? 

A    No,  on  Rosh  Hashanah,  which  I  believe  was  September 
16th,  1985,  it  was  a  bank  holiday  in  New  York.   I  flew  to 
New  York,  again  talked  with  General  Secord.   He  gave  me  the 
address  of  a  corner  Chinese  deli  on  the  West  Side,  the  Lower 
West  Side  of  New  York,  a  Chinese  vegetable  stand,  and  I  went  to 


BY  MS.  BENSON: 


ytJciftSSiFe 


Q    You  said  Lower  West  Side? 

A    Yes.   I  went  to  the  location.   I  had  been  given  a 


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name.   I  asked  for  the  person,  and  I  told  them  that  I  had  been 
given  a  name  to  use  by  General  Secord,  and  I  gave  him  that 
name.   It  was  not  Secord.   It  was  something  like  Manny,  but  I 
really  can't  remember. 

The  individual  then  went  behind  the  counter  and 
unrolled  his  pant  leg,  I  believe,  and  pulled  out  a  wad  of 
$100  bills  and  then  asked  me  if  I  wanted  to  count  them.   I 
subsequently  did,  and  there  were  95  $100  bills. 

I  then  flew  back  to  Washington,  went  to  the  Sheraton 
Carlton  Hotel,  where  I  was  to  meet  General  Secord.   I  saw 
him  in  the  bar.   I  went  downstairs  and  used  the  house  phone, 
called  the  bar,  told  him  I  was  there;  he  came  out,  met  me  in 
the  lobby,  and  I  handed  him  the  money  rolled  in  a  newspaper. 

Then  I  did  say,  well,  I  think  he  must  have  taken  his 
5  percent.   I  commented  that  there  was  $9500  there.   I  thought 
I  would  provide  an  even  10,000,  but  he  said  through  the 
currency  restrictions,  he  didn't  want  the  money  to  be  $10,000 
or  higher,  so  that  is  why  it  was  $9500. 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  in  October  of  1984,  you  had  become  employed 
as  a  consultant  to  NHAO;  is  that  correct? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  did  you  become  employed  as  a  consultant  through 
the  foundation  that  you  had  set  up? 

A    Through  an  organization  called  the  Institute  for 


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Democracy,  Education  and  Assistance.   It  was  founded  in 
January  1985  as  a  nonprofit  501(c)(3). 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  in  late  November  of  1985,  did  you  ta)ce  a 
trip  down^^^^^^^^^H,  did  you  not,  with  regard  to  a  humanitari 
^^^^^^^^ 

A    In  November  — 

Q     Of  1985?  ^^^^^^^^ 

A    Of  1985,  November  13,  I  flew  down^^^^^^^^^fto  do 
a  survey  of  the  needs  and  how  things  were  going.   Money  had 
started  to  flow  at  the  time,  so  I  met  with  a  number  of  the 
FDN,  also  with^^^^^^^^^^^^^nd  with| 


Q     I  am  not  going  to  ask  you  any  more  details  about  thai 
trip,  although  you  have  provided  them  to  us  in  prior  meetings 
that  we  have  had.   Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  the 
trip  that  you  took  in  January  of  1986,  the  11th  to  the  18th. 
I  understand  that  at  that  time,  you  took  a  trip  from  New 
Orleans  actually  down  ^'^'^^^^^^^^^B  ^^  that  correct? 

A    Yes.   I  had  met  with  Colonel  North,  and  he  asked  me 
to  accompany  a  flight  that  was  going  down  to^^^^^^H.   At 
the  time,  though,  I  was  working  for  NHAO.   I  still  let  him  knc 
what  I  was  doing,  and  did  some  work  at  his  request,  so  I  had 
to  walk  a  very  fine  line  with  NHAO,  and  Ambassador  Dooling,  bi. 
I  did  fly  to  New  Orleans,  and  then  drove  over  to  Gulf port, 
Mississippi,  where  I  met  with  some  representatives  of  the  Nav 


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who  were  providing  the  Butler  Buildings,  and  then  on  SAT, 
Southern  Air  Transport,  L-lOO  came  in  to  the  air  strip  there. 
We  loaded  on  the  Butler  Buildings  and  we  flew  to 

where  the  buildings  were  unloade 
and  they  were  to  be  used  to  store  at  that  time  potentially 
NHAO  goods,  because^^^^^^^fhad  shut  off  flights,  and  we  had 
a  backlog  of  material  that  had  to  get  down  there. 

Q    You  take  then  an  additional  series  of  flights  or 
trips  down  to  Central  America  in  the  winter  and  spring  of  1986. 
A    Yes. 

Q    And  let  me  just  ask  you  on  one  occasion,  you  became 
involved  with  one  particular  flight  that  had  a  series  of  meetin 
—  or  with  you  and  Chi  Chi  and  Colonel  Steele.   Could  you 
relate  when  that  took  place,  and  information  about  that 
particular  flight? 

A    I  met  with  Colonel  North,  I  believe,  sometime  around 
the  23rd  of  March,  and  during  this  time,  we  were  continuing 
to  try  and  find  ways  to  supply  the  southern  front  with  arms 
inside  Nicaragua,  either  through  air  drop  or  any  other  means. 

A  SAT  flight  was  going  down  from  Dulles  to  Miami, 
and  then  on  to^^^^^^^f  I  went  up  to  Dulles ,  picked  up  the 
SAT  flight.   On  board  was  a  representative  of  Dick  Gadd  and 
myself,  and  flew  to  Miami. 

Where  there,  we  tried  to,  the  pilots  tried  to  get 
equipment  that  could  be  used  for  an  air  drop.   The  idea  was 


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that  medical  goods  would  be  unloaded  atl 

LArms  would  then  be  loaded  up.   The  flight  would  fly 
to^^^^^^^B  where  the  arms  would  be  packaged  for  a  drop,  and 
then  the  following  night,  it  would  be  dropped  to  the  forces 
in  the  south. 

In^^^^^^H,  we  were  greeted  by  Rcunon  Medina  and 
Chi  Chi  Rodriguez. 

Q     Chi  Chi  Contero?^ 

A    Chi  Chi  Contero  and  Felix  Rodriguez.   The  arms  had 
not  been  released  at^^^^^^^Bwhen  we  arrived.   I  went  and 
asked^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bif  he 
and  asked  them  if  they  were  released,  and  if  there  was  some 
follow-up,  because  I  had  been  assured  by  Colonel  North  that 
they  would  be  there  waiting  for  us  to  load. 

He  did,  and  the  reply  came  back  that  the  FDN  hadnot 
released  the  arms. 

BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 
Was  that^^^^^^^^^ 
A    You  mean  ^^^^^^^^^B   ^^  ^^^  neither  one.   It  was 
one  of  their  representatives.   He  did  a  coded  call  into  the 
and  they  tracked  down,  I  believe  they  tracked  down 

)ing  to  move  had  already  come 
ind  they  were 
supposed  to  have  been  moved  over  tc^^^^^^^^Hby  this  time, 
and  to  be  loaded  up,  or  the  FDN  was  going  to  provide  some  of 


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the  arms  and  munitions.   This  did  not  take  place.   We  were  in 
Several  calls  were  made  to  Colonel  North,  also  by 
Steele^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand  a  call 
to  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^o        the  drop  when 
things  didn't  work  out. 

We  went  through  a  series  of  meetings  to  try  and  come 
up  with  a  way  to  get  the  arms.   Finally,  it  was  decided 
to  scrub  the  mission.   They  went  back  to  Florida,  and  I  went 
down  t  ^^ 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  you  had  other  trips  which  you  took  to 
Central  America  throughout  the  summer  of  1986. 
A    Until  June  of  1986. 
Q    Until  June  of  1986? 

A    Right.   My  last  trip  for  NHAO,  I  came  back  on  May  30 
Q    And  let  me  just  direct  your  attention  and  just  cover 
some  things  in  a  summary  fashion. 

Obviously,  these  are  areas  that  you  have  substantial 
additional  information  about,  and  you  have  provided  that  to 
us,  but  almost  by  my  summary,  you  previously  told  us  that  you 
had  conversations  with  Colonel  North  about  the  CIA  purchasing 
the  private  material  that  had  been  used  for  the  private  supply 
operations,  is  that  correct?   You  had  previously  told  us  about 
that. 

A    Yes.   He  had  hoped  that  the  agency  would  pick  up  the 


690 


md2  0 


mmmB 


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private  network  that  had  been  set  up  and  use  that. 

Q    Those  conversations  you  had  with  Colonel  North  were 
in  the  suiraner  of  1986? 

A    Summer  or  early  fall,  and  he  was  rather  upset  because 
the  agency  didn't  want  to  touch  any  of  it.   They  felt  it  was 
tainted,  and  the  people  were  already  exposed,  and  so  they  did 
not  want  to  have  anything  to  do  with  it. 

Q    You  have  also  told  us  that  a  meeting  took  place  betwe^r 
you,  at  least  one,  in  or  about  September  of  1986  with  General 
Secord,  where  he  told  you  a  number  of  things. 

One  of  the  things  that  he  told  you  about  was  the 
decision  in  1985  to  remove  Calero  from  control  of  the  funding, 
and  that  the  funding  control  was  put  in  the  hands  of  Secord 
and  Colonel  North;  is  that  correct? 

A    Yes,  it  is. 

Q    And  did  he  also  tell  you  about  a  meeting  that  had 
taken  place  between  himself  and  Director  Casey? 

A    It  was  either  at  that  meeting  or  another  meeting 
he  talked  about  it,  at  least  one  if  not  several  meetings  he  had 
with  Director  Casey. 

Q    During  the  course  of  the  meeting  between  Secord  and 
Director  Casey,  Secord  had  discussed  with  Director  Casey  the 
situation  in  Nicaragua,  and  also  the  purchasing  of  the  assets 
of  the  airfield;  is  that  correct? 

A    I  believe  so.   I  am  not  sure. 


691 


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Q    You  were  relating  to  us  in  any  event? 

A    Right. 

Q    What  Secord  told  you  about  the  meeting. 

A    Right,  and  it  may  have  been  --  yes. 
BY  MS.  BENSON: 

Q     Yes? 

A    Yes,  as  well  as  I  can  remember.   There  were  things 
we  needed  to  discuss,  I  talked  at  at  least  one  meeting  with 
Director  Casey  about  the  effort. 

Q    Do  you  recall  General  Secord  saying  that  he  had 
spoken  with  Director  Casey  about  the  CIA  purchasing  the 
air  strip  and  the  other  assets  connected  with  the  air  supply 
operation? 

A    I  believe  so.   I  can't  be  100  percent  positive,  but 
I  believe  so. 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    It  is  your  best  recollection  that  in  the  meeting 
that  you  had  with  General  Secord,  General  Secord  had  told  you 
about  this  meeting  with  Casey,  and  you  think  that  is  one  of  the 
things? 

A    It  was  either  in  this  meeting  or  a  meeting  I  had  with 
General  Secord  in  Colonel  North's  office. 

Q    And  when  would  that  have  been  in  relation  to  this? 


Sometime  in  late  1986 


UNCLASSIFIED 


692 


md    22 


yii»o 


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p5 

i/  .■■■*> 


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BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q    Who  was  at  that  meeting? 

A    Secord,  Ollie  and  myself. 
BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  let  me  ask  you  in  the  spring  of  1985, 
at  the  time  that  you  were  providing  the  money  to  the  various 
contra  leaders,  did  you  and  Colonel  North  joke  about  who  was 
going  to  jail  first? 

A    Yes,  we  would  joke  about  that. 

Q    And  did  you  also  joke  with  Jonathan  Miller  about  that|? 

A    Yes,  we  did.   He  thought  we  should  bone  up  on  our 
chess  games  so  that  we  could  play  between  the  bars. 

Q    And  was  this  because  of  the  sort  of  generally 
fertive  and  unseemly  nature  of  distributing  money  on  rainy 
street  corners  outside  the  OEO  Building? 

A    I  would  say  that  mightbe  an   appropriate  statement. 

Q    Was  there  any  specific  discussion  of  the  Boland 
amendment  and  whether  or  not  you  were  violating  the  Boland 
amendment? 

A    It  was  very  questionable.   I  think  everyone  knew  we 
were  walking  a  very  fine  line. 

Q    But  nevertheless,  you  joked  that  you  might  have 
gone  over  the  line  and  might  end  up  in  jail? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Let  me  ask  you,  did  Colonel  North  tell  you  whether  or 


693 


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^ 

^ 

& 


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m. 


56 


not  the  President  of  the  United  States  knew  what  Colonel 
North  was  up  to  in  Central  America? 

A    He  did  not  say  it  in  those  words.   He  did  say, 
I  once  asked  him  about  the  memos  that  I  provided  to  him,  and 
he  said  they  went  across  the  street  to  those  above  him.   He 
did  say,  don't  worry,  what  you  are  doing,  you  are  doing  it  for 
—  is  what  the  President  wants  done,  and  it  is  for  God  and 
Country. 

Q    You  knew  at  that  time  that  the  President  was  meeting 
with  various  private  fund-raisers;  is  that  correct? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  you  knew  that  the  meetings  he  was  having  with 
the  fund-raisers  was  with  regard  to  raising  money  for  the 
contras? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  that  that  money  was  being  funnelled  into  Colonel 

North? 

A    I  knew  that  funds  were  being  pulled  together.   I 
didn't  know  where  it  was  all  being  funnelled.   Are  you  speaking 
about  one  particular  group,  one  particular  fund-raising  group? 

Q    I  wasn't  speaking  about  one  group  in  particular, 
actually.   What  I  was  really  asking  about  is  just  whether  or 
not  you  had  any  conversations  with  Colonel  North  about  whether 
or  not  the  President  knew  about  where  the  money  was  going  to 
go,  and  the  purpose  for  which  the  money  was  going  to  be  raised. 


694 


CO 


;!S 


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^mMB 


59 


A    Actually,  those  conversations  didn't  really  take 
place  between  me  and  Colonel  North. 

0    Did  Colonel  North  tell  you,  as  he  has  told  others, 
that  the  President  knew  what  he  was  doing  with  regard  to 
maintaining  the  operation  in  Central  America? 

A    I  got  that  impression,  yes. 

Q    Did  he  say  things  to  you  that  led  you  to  conclude 
that  the  President  knew? 

A    He  said,  what  you  are  doing  you  are  doing  for  —  I 
can't  exactly  remember  what  the  words  were,  and  I  don't  want 
to  put  words  into  his  mouth,  but  it  was  in  essence,  the  fact 
that  what  we  were  doing  was  for  this  President  and  for  this 
Administration. 

Q    But  knowing  Ollie,  you  didn't  have  any  reason  to 
think  that  he  was  doing  it  completely  on  his  own? 

A    No.   I  once  had  a  conversation  with  him,  as  a  matter 
of  fact,  the  day  that  all  of  this  broke,  and  his  comment 
was,  "You  know,  I  would  never  do  anything  unless  I  was  ordered 
or  I  was  under  order  to  do  it.   I  would  not  do  anything  on 
my  own . " 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Thank  you  very  much. 
MR.  GREENEBAUM:   I  only  want  to  ask  you  one  thing. 
Near  the  end,  you  started  to  give  what  appeared  to  be  a  menu 
of  things  that  this  witness  has  discussed  with  you,  and  I  would 
only  want  the  record  to  reflect  that  you  discussed  many  things 


695 


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^mMB 


60 


which  were  not  in  that  menu.   I  don't  think  you  meant  it  to  be 
all-inclusive. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Mr.  Greenebaum  has  just  indicated 
to  me  that  I  had  listed  various  things,  in  quickly  going  througlh 
the  end  of  the  deposition,  the  various  things  that  Mr.  Owen 
has  told  us  about.   That  list  was  net    intended  to  be  exclusive 
in  any  fashion. 

He  has  also  told  us  about  a  number  of  things  that 
occurred  in  the  sununer  of  1984  to  1986. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  would  just  like  to  add  that  on  severa 
occasions,  Colonel  North  did  tell  me  that  he  would  be  the 
fall  guy  if  things  went  bad. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Thank  you. 


\!Ha^ssro 


696 


TAKE  2     1 

CANTOR:mhl 
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CO 


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(The  deposition  was  moved  to  room  2261  Rayburn  House 
Office  Building) . 

Mr.  LEON:   Back  on  the  record. 

We  have  taken  a  briefing  break  and 
relocated  our  offices. 

Just  to  introduce  myself  for  the  record, 
my  name  is  Richard  Leon,  the  Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel, 
for  the  House  Committee  ,  and  with  me  is  Terry  Smiljanich, 
Counsel  for  the  Senate  Committee. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 
Q     I  would  like  to  pick  up  a  few  areas,  Mr.  Owen, 
that  you  previously  discussed  with  Mr.  Eggelston,  and  go  over 
those  with  you. 

First  of  all,  with  respect  to  the  discussion  that 
came  up  regarding  Ambassador  Duemling,  and  the  fine  line  you 
were  walking,  I  think  you  were  talking  about  your  involvement 
in  the  Suiter  Building? 
A     Right. 

Q     Being  located  intc 
A      Ir   ^^^ 

Q    ^^^^^^^^Bexcuse  me.   Would  you  elaborate  a  little 
bit  with  respect  to  your  comment  about  you  were  walking  a 
fine  line  there? 

A     It  was  Oliver  North's  suggestion  that  I  apply  for 
job  at  NAHO.   When  I  first  went  to  meet  Ambassador  Duemling 
he  didn't  see  that  there  would  be  a  place  for  me.   I  think 


697 


mmms 


62 


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that  he  probably  in  the  beginning,  felt  that  he  was  pressured 
to  hire  me  by  Oliver  North  and  possibly  others.   I  think  in 
the  beginning  also,  he  therefore,  was  very  wary  of  me  and  what 
I  was  doing.   He  looked  upon  me  perhaps  as  Oliver  North's  man 
in  the  inside  who  could  keep  him  informed  as  to  what  was 
going  on. 

Again,  in  tne  very  beginning  he  wasn't  quite  sure 
what  it  was  that  I  was  going  to  do,  and  he  may  have  felt  he 
was  saddled  with  me,  but  he  eventually  —  we  ended  up  having 
a  very  good  working  relationship,  at  least  I  think  so,  and  I 
tried  to  keep  him  as  best  informed  as  I  could. 

There  was  always  some  question  as  to  who  I  really 
worked  for.   During  a  GAO   investigation,  they  asked  me  do 
you  work  for,  you  know,  or  do  vou  work  for  Oliver  North,  or 
do  you  work  for  NAHO.   And  I  said,  I  am  paid  by  the  State 
Department.   I  contract  to  them,  but  the  pNO  people 
are  the  ones  I  am  supposed  to  be  responsible  to.   So,  in 
essence  I  was  sort  of  working  for  three  different  groups  — 
NAHO,  Oliver  North,  and  UNO. 

Q     Did  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  that  the  funds 
that  were  paying  your  salary  came  from  UNO? 

A     No,  I  knew  that  they  were  U.S.  Government  funds 
from  the  State  Department,  part  of  the  $27  million  grant. 

Q     Now,  with  respect  to  the  Butler  Building,  when  you 
said  you  were  walking  a  fine  line,  did  you  consider  your 


698 


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conduct  at  that  time  to  be  potentially  in  violation  of  the 
Boland  amendment? 

A     No,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  the  reason  I  said  that 
about  walking  a  fine  line  with  the  Butler  Building  is  because 
I  knew  about  it  before  Ambassador  Duemling  talked  to  me  about 
it,  so  that  is  he-'.   I  mean,  everyone  was  sort  of  playing 
bames,  and  Colonel  North  didn't  want  Ambassador  Duemling  to 
get  upset  with  me,  so  we  sort  of  had  to  finesse  a  number  of 
things. 

Q     But  you  didn't  consider  your  conduct  in  assisting 
with  those  buildings,  to  be  potentially  in  violation  of  any 
law,  and  in  particular,  the  Boland  amendment? 

A     No.   Specifically  because  the  decision  to  move  the 
Butler  Building  down  there  was  predicated  on  the  fact  that 


Icould  be  a  staging  point  for  air  drops  to  the  FDN  anc 
potentially  the  troops  in  the  south,  and  it  would  be  able  to 
provide  a  way  station.   Obviously,  the  thought  was  humanitaria 
goods  could  be  used  for  it,  but  subsequently,  they  were  used 
for  arms  as  well. 

Q     At  another  point  in  your  testimony  earlier,  you 
were  talking  about  conversations  that  you  had  with  Colonel 
North  and  Mr.  Secord  with  respect  to  the  resupply  operation, 
and  certain  of  its  assets  --  in  particularly  airplanes  and 
the  airstrip.   Do  you  recall  that; 


IINCIASSIFIEC 


699 


23 
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mwsm 


64 

1  A  Yes, 

2  Q     With  regard  to  that,  I  would  like  to  see  if  I 

3  could  clarify  something  for  the  record.   Was  it  your  impressior 

4  that  Colonel  North,  in  1986,  believed  that  those  assets,  the 

5  airplanes  and  the  airstrip,  were  things  that  were  going  to  be 

6  sold  to  the  CIA,  or  just  given  to  the  CIA? 

7  '       A     It  was  my  impression  that  they  probably  were  going 

8  to  be  given.   General  Singlaub  — 
g         Q     Singlaub  or  Secord? 

JO         A     No,  I  am  changing.   Singlaub  is  another  individual 
If    who  I  had  a  number  of  dealings  with  and  the  General  on  one 
12    occasion,  hoped  that  he  would  be   able  to  sell  his  assets, 
j2    or  at  least  get  reimbursed  at  cost,  so  he  could  then  go  use 
those  funds  for  other  efforts  that  he  was  involved  with,  but 
he  was  told  that  that  was  not  oging  to  be  the  case,  that  he 
would  have  to  give  them  over,  and  even  by  his  givingthem, 
there  was  some  question  whether  the  CIA  would  make  use  of 
them. 

Q     Was  it  your  impression  that  General  Secord  believed 
that  those  assets  were  owned  by  the  Contras  or  by  Udall  or 
some  others? 


A     We  never  really  discussed  that,  but  during  several 
22 


conversations  the  thought  was  that  in  essence  they  wanted  — 
my  impression  was  they  wanted  to  give  them  to  the  agency  or 
have  them  pick  up  — 


UNCUSSIRES 


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mmsm 


65 


Q  Who   is   they? 

A     Ollie  —  Colonel  North,  General  Secord.   At  least 
they  wanted  to  have  the  agency  pick  up  the  tab  for  the  cost 
of  fuel,  the  planes  and  the  pilots,  and  the  network  that  had 
been  put  together,  so  that  it  wouldn't  have  to  come  out  of 
funds  that  may  not  exist  any  longer,  or  may  have  run  out  by 
then. 

Q     When  you  say  the  planes,  do  you  mean  the  CIA  would 
purchase  the  planes? 

A     That,  I  don't  know.   I  can't  comment  on  that. 

Q     Can  you  comment  as  to  whether  it  was  your 
impression  that  there  was  any  disagreement  between  North  and 
Secord  as  to  what  should  be  done  with  those  planes? 

A     I  don't  know. 

Q     Did  you  sense  any? 

A     No.   The  only  sense  1  had  was  that  Ollie  wanted 
the  equipment  to  be  used,  seeing  as  they  were  already  in  place 
and  felt  there  was  an  ongoing  operation. 

Q     You  have  mentioned  in  your  prior  testimony 

Did  you  have  any  personal  meetings  or  discussions 

with  ^^^^^ 

A     I  never  had  any  personal  meetings  withl 
but  on  numerous  occasions  when  I  would  be  in  Ollie  North's 
office,  he  would  pick  up  the  phone  and  call 

Q     Were  you  aware  that^^^^^^^^tfwas  a  member  of  the 


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66 

RIG  organization? 

A     Yes,  I  was.   I  knew  that  in  essence  that  the  RIG 
was  Oliver  North,  Elliott  Abrams,  andl 

Q     Did  you  ever  have  any  personal  meetings  or 
discussions  with  Elliott  Abrams? 

A     No,  I  did  not. 

Q     With  respect  to^^^^^^^^^fdid  North  comment  to 
you  from  time  to  time  oi^^^^^^^^^l involvement  in  this? 

A     No.   The  only  conversations  would  be  when  he  had 
phone  calls  with  him  while  I  was  in  the  office,  but  we  did 
not  discuss  his  intimate  knowledge  or  working  relationship, 
although  I  was  under  the  impression  that  everything  Oliver 
North  did,  and  I  will  add  here  most  eveyrthing  that] 
I  d  i  d ,  ^^^^^^^^H  knew 

Q     That  is  more  specifically  what  I  wanted  to  get  to. 
You  dealt  with^^^^^^^^^^^Hextensively? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Was  it  your  impression  that  his  acts  with  respect 
to  this  program,  were  done  with  the  knowledge  and  consent  of 


A     I  believe  that  they  were  at  least  done  with  his 
knowledge.   I  don't  know  whether^^^^^^^^^consented  to  it. 
I  think  one  of  the  things  that  should  be  kept  in  mind  is  that 
the  between^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^fts 

[there  was  an  ongoing  military  effort  and  a  structure 


702 


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mimm 


67 


that  existed.   There  was  no  real  structure  in  the  south,  and 
it  was  an  effort  undertaken  by  a  number  of  people,  including 

land  myself,  and  others,  to  try  and  develop 
the  structure  so  that  there  would  be  something  to  use  in  the 
south  for  a  second  front  against  the  Sandinista  military. 

Q     Did  you  ever  get  the  impression  fromi 
that  he  was  acting  either  outside  the  knowledge  of| 
or  against  the  orders  oi 

A     No.   I  knew  from  conversations  that  there  was  some, 
potentially  some  animosity  betweer 

but  I  did  not  get  the  impression  that  he  was  --  let  me  j us t 
backtrack  and  say  that  the  operation  was  small  enough  so  that 

cnew  what  was  going  on.   I  am  constrained  that  he 
knew  what  was  going  on. 

Q     Did  Ollie  North  ever  give  you  the  impression  in 
either  anything  he  said  or  anything  he  did,  that  he  was  askinc 
to  do  something,  anything,  without  the  knowledge 


A     No,  I  did  not  get  that  idea.   But  in  April  I  did 
take  an  encryption  device  down  to^^^^^^^^^^Hso  that  he 
could  have  his  own  -- 

Q     April  of  what  year? 

A     April  of  1986  —  his  own  secure  communications 
link  directly  with  Oliver  North  so  that  he  wouldn't  have 
to  run  to  the  secure  line  everytime  they  talked. 


703 


mmsM 


68 


1 
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'8 
19 
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25 


Q  The  secure  line  at  the  Embassy? 

A  At  the  Embassy  and  at  Ollie's  office,  yes. 

Q  [)o  you  know  whether  or  not^^^^Hwas  aware  of  that? 

A  That,  I  do  not  know. 

Q  Oo  you  know  if^^^^Hhad  a  similar  such  device? 

A  That,  I  do  not.   My  guess  is  no,  because  Ollie 
just  picked  up  the  secure  line  and  called  him. 

Q  With  respect  to  Ambassador  Tambs ,     did  you  deal 

with  im  directly? 

t 

A     I  first  me  Ambassador  Tambs  in  Oliver  North'^s 

office  before  he  went  down  to  Costa  Rica  to  assume  the 
Ambassadorship.   Ollie  introduced  me  as  one  of  his  people  that 
would  be  traveling  frequently  down  there.   The  Ambassador  said 
any  time  youare  down,  please  stop  in  and  see  me.   So,  on 
most  of  my  trips  down  there,  I  did  go  in  and  visit  him. 
Sometimes  I  would  be  alone,  but  most  of  the  time^^^^^^Bwoulc 
joint  us. 

Q     Was  it  your  impression  that  Ambassador  Tambs  was 
communicating  with  Elliott  Abrams  with  regard  to  his  conduct 
down  there? 

A     I  don't  know  that. 

Q     You  don' t  know? 

A     I  would  imagine,  but  I  don't  know  that  for  sure. 

Q     Did  you  have  any  reason  to  think  that  Eliott 
Abrams  was  unaware  of  Mr.  Tamb's  conduct? 


704 


1 

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UNfflflO 


69 


A     No. 


Q     With  respect  to  Colonel  Steele,  did  you  deal  with 
Colonel  Steele? 

A     The  first  time  I  met  Colonel  Steele  was  with  the 
MIL  Group  commanderj 


I  then  saw  him  again  in  March,  at  the  time  we  had 
gone  down  there  and  were  trying  to  put  together  the  first  drop 
to  the  forces  in  the  south. 

Q     In  March  of  ' 86? 

A     March  of  '86,  yes.   He  was  in  on  several  meetings 
Ihad  with  Chichi  Cotero  and  Felix  Rodriguez. 

Q     You  only  dealt  with  him  twice? 

A     Yes,  I  believe  that  I  was  only  ^"^^^^^H  ^^^n*^ 
three  times  or  four  times. 

Q     How  about  Mr.  Gadd?    Did  you  have  many  dealings 
with  him? 

A     I  had  a  couple  of  lunches  and  maybe  three  or  four 
times  we  had  lunch  together.   I  think  I  was  introduced  by 
phone  to  him  as  Mr.  East,  and  Colonel  North  had  aked  me  to  get 
in  contact  with  Mario  Calero,  and  to  encourage  Mario  Calero 
to  talk  to  Mr.  East  and  also  to  set  up  a  meeting  so  that  Mr. 
East  would  be  the  person  they  would  turn  to  when  flights 


705 


10 


W 


1 

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WVWJl 


70 


started  up  again,  he  would  be  the  contact  officer  for  moving 
the  goods,  and  I  also  mentioned  it  to  the  NAHO  people  that  he 
would  probably  be  a  good  person  to  use.   Subsequently,  I 
learned  his  name  was  Gadd. 

Q     And  Robert  Dutton,  dod  you  deal  with  him? 

A     Never  met  him. 

Q     Never  met  him? 

A     I  don't  believe  so,  no.   I  don't  believe  I  ever  met 
him. 

Q     How  about  Max  Gomez? 

A     I  had  met  Max  initially  in  March  of  1985.   I  was 
introduced  to  him  as  someone  who  could  do  a  number  of  good 
things  down  south.   I  belive  that  it  was  at  that  time  he  was 
trying  to  decide  whether  to  go  to  work  with  the  FDN  or  go  to 
work  in  Salvador,  and  we  discussed  some  of  the  thing  that  he 
would  be  able  to  do  for  the  FDN^^^^^^^Hand  try  to 
up  various  programs  that  were  necessary. 

I  talked  to  Colonel  North  about  him,  and  he  said 
yes,  but  he  thought  he  was  going  to  Salvador.   I  then  met  him 
in  March  when  I  was  down  there,  and  then  again  in  April^^^^H 


Q     Were  you  aware  of  any  conflict  between  Max  and  with 
the  Secord  operation  with  respect  to  the  use  of  planes  and 
the  distribution  of  t^c^s^e^ planes ,  those  assets  to  the  CIA  in 
the  future? 


706 


11 


CO 


Ul^^fiED 


71 


A     No.   The  biggest  conflict  that  I  knew  was,  one, 
there  was  a  meeting  in  August  of  1986. 

Q  Exactly. 

A     When  Colonel  North  was  out  of  town,  but  I  believe 
his  deputy,  Robert  Earl   sat  in  on  it.   Colonel  North  was 
upset  at  the  meeting,  was  upset  about  the  meeting  because  he 
felt  that  — 

Q     Is  that  a  meeting  with  Donald  Gregg? 

A     Yes.   At  the  time,  I  only  knew  there  was  a  meeting 
that  took  place  st   the  White  House,  where  they  had  a  variety 
of  representatives  —  I  believe  some  from  the  Agency,  from  the 
NSC,  the  Vice  President's  office. 

Q     Let  me  back  up.   Were  you  aware  there  were  two 
meetings  —  one  on  August  8  between  Donald  Gregg,  Felix, 
Robert  Earl,  and  then  one  on  August  12,  with  representatives 
the  Ambassador  Corps,  Colonel  Steele,  and  others? 

A     I  knew  that  there  was  at  least  one,  if  not  two 
meetings  had  taken  place,  so  I  wasn't  familiar  with  the  dates. 
I  do  know  that  at  least  one  of  them  there  were  representatives 
from  State  and  the  Agency  that  were  there,  and  Colonel  North 
was  upset.   He  felt  that  Felix  had  been  maligning  the  effort, 
and  also  there  were  I  believe  conversations  that  took  place 
about  what  is  going  to  happen  once  the  military  funding  was 
released  by  Congress. 

Q     Did  Colonel  North  relay  to  you  that  there  was  a 


707 


12 


DH«UitfD 


72 


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disagreement  as  to  who  owned  the  assets  and  whether  or  not 
they  should  be  given  to  the  CIA  or  sold  to  the  CIA? 
A     No,  that  did  not  come  up. 

Q  Were  you  aware  that  Colonel  North  had  a  meeting 
with  Dutton  and  Felix  Rodriguez  in  June  of  '86  in  which  he 
castigated  allegedly  Felix  Rodriguez? 

A     I  knew  that  there  was  a  meeting  when  Colonel  North 
had  flown  down  ^°^|^H|  and  met  with  Felix  and  met  with 
Colonel  Steele,  and  I  believe^^^^^Waccompanied  him 
on  that  meeting,  and  they  had  talked  about  the  assets  and  what 
was  going  on.   I  knew  that  there  were  always  problems  with  it. 
There  were  concerns  of  mismanagement,  there  were  concerns  of 
funds  not  getting  through  on  time.   There  were  concerns  of 
the  quality  of  equipment  and  the  lack  of  coordination. 

Q     Did  you  discuss  with  Colonel  North  the  possibility 
that  the  contras  were  being  ripped  off,  defrauded  by  Secord 
and  other  people  working  down  there  with  Secord? 

A     In  March  of  1986  I  made  a  memo  to  Colonel  North  in 
which  I  discussed  some  concerns  that  people  had  about  the 
possibility  that  General  Secord  was  making  large  profits  out 

of  this. 

Q     This  is  concerns  of  who? 

A     Concerns  on  the  street  that  I  had  heard  from  a 
variety  of  sources,  and  also  at  one  time,  I  am  not  sure  it  was 
at  this  point  or  another  point,  Adolpho  Calero  had  made 


im  mm. 


708 


13 


f>0 


I 

2 

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73 

mention  of  it,  and  at  this  time  in  the  memo,  I  put  in  Tom 
Clines  and  several  others. 

Q     Did  you  see  any  evidence  to  indicate  that  Secord 
was  doing  such  a  thing? 

A     Was  making  money  off  it?  No. 

Q     Have  you  ever  seen  such  efforts? 

A     No. 

Q     Have  you  ever  seen  any  direct  involvement  by  Tom 
Clines  in  any  of  these  activities,  or  Secord  or  his  other 
people? 

A     No.   I  just  knew  that  he  was  involved. 

Q     Do  you  know  if  the  name  Clines  and  the  defrauding 
of  the  contras  came  up  in  the  context  of  the  meeting  with 
Donald  Gregg  in  August  of  '86? 

A     I  don't  know  that  for  a  fact.   I  heard  a  rumor  that 
there  was  some  concern  about  money  being  ripped  off.   I  know 
Felix  Rodriguez  had  a  concern  that  people  were  making  money 
off  of  this  effort. 

Q     Did  Colonel  North  give  you  his  assessment  of  whethe 
such  things  were  happening,  in  his  opinion? 

A     I  believe  it  was  in  that  March  meeting,  where  I 
talked  to  Colonel  North  about  it,  emd  he  said  "I  don't  believe 
that  Secord  is  making  money  off  of  this." 

I  believe  on  one  other  occasions,  when  I  talked, 
he  talked  about  Secord  using  his  own  money  to  set  up  a  variety 


709 


14 


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to 

II 

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WKSiB 


74 


of  proprietaries  that  were  being  used.   At  that  same  meeting 
in  March  I  brought  up  Peter  Maas'  book,  where  the  list  of 


concern  eas  voiced  byl 
It  may  not  have  been  that  meeting,  it  may  have  been  a 
subsequent  meeting,  but  also  the  fact  that  there  were 
allegations  that  monies  were  being  )^de  and  that  the  contras 
were  being  ripped  off. 

Let  me  just  add  that  also  in  that  same  discussion 
I  talked  about  another  group  who  were  saying  that  they  were 
working  for  Secord  and  North,  but  in  essence  had  their  own 
arms  operation  going,  and  they  subsequently  became  known  as 
the  Supermarket  Contras,  but  were  using  as  a  cover,  from  what 
I  had  heard,  Secord  and  North's  names. 

Q     Do  you  know  who  those  people  were? 
A     They  were  connected  with  Rob  Martin.   David  Duncan 
was  one  of  them.   There  is  another  name  --  Alberto  Cappo,  and 

Patrice  Genty. 

Q     You  have  testified  previously  to  handling  money 

on  behalf  of  North? 

A     Right. 

Q     TO  give  to  other  people,  and  you  saw  on  numerous 
occasions  North  in  the  posession  of  money  in  his  vault? 

A     Right. 

Q     In  the  safe: 


ssion  of  money  in  his  vauJ 


710 


15 


1 

2 

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Right. 


iiiffiFe 


75 


Q     Let  me  start  at  the  top  here.   As  to  yourself, 
besides  the  money  you  were  paid  as  salary  for  your  acts  here, 
did  you  ever  perosnally  profit  in  any  way,  shape  or  form,  from 
your  activities  down  there? 

A     While  I  was  working  for  Adolpho  Caler'^,  I  made 
$2500  a  month,  and  whatever  my  travel  expenses  were,  and  I 
provided  an  accounting  to  Adolpho  Calero  --  and  I  would  also 
provide  a  copy  of  that  accounting,  I  would  also  usually  provide 
a  copy  of  the  accounting  to  Oliver  North. 

When  I  would  take  trips  to  New  York  to  get  the 
funds,  I  was  paid  usually  out  of  North's  safe  for  whatever  my 
expenses  were. 

When  I  worked  for  NAHO,  I  was  provided  a  contract 
which  said  the  maximum  I  could  get  would  be  $3650  a  month. 
I  took  $3350,  the  other  $500  I  used  to  help  cover  expenses, 
phone  calls,  things  like  that. 

On  one  occasion,  on  my  wedding,  I  was  given  a 
thousand  dollars  and  that  probeibly  came  from  those  funds.   So 
that  would  be  my  only  profit  perhaps. 

Q     Who  gave  it  to  you? 

A     Oliver  North. 


yNCLASSiFIED 


Q     Did  you  understand  that  that  was  a  gift? 
A     Yes,  it  was  in  essence  I  guess  you  could  say,  a 
bonus  or  whatever,  for  the  work  that  I  was  doing,  but  I  would 


711 


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ijtiffliD 


76 


like  to  add  right  now  that  I  am  in  debt  and  have  no  job,  so 
I  don't  think  I  profited  from  it. 

Q     Do  you  have  any  knowledge  — 

A     And  my  wife  will  certainly  admit  that  I  didn't 

profit  for  it. 

Q     Do  you  have  any  knowledge  about  Colonel  North 
making  any  profit  or  taking  any  money  from  any  of  these  funds 
that  he  was  in  posseion  of  or  distributing  to  anybody? 

A     I  had  heard  on  one  occasion  from  one  source  who  I 
did  not  always  find  reliable  — 

Q     Who  is  that?  

A  fellow  by  the  name  of^^^^^^H  I  brought 
his  name  up  before.   I  did  not  always  think  his  information 
was  reliable.   I  would  find  it  very  difficult  to  believe  that 
Oliver  North  profited  from  it. 

AS  one  person  said,  if  Oliver  North  profited  from 
it  it  just  Shows  there  is  no  Santa  Claus. 

Q     You  have  no  evidence  that  indicates  that? 

A     none  whatsoever. 

Q     And  you  have  seen  nothing  that  indicates  that? 

A     I  had  heard  rumors  that  — 

Q     FromI 

A      FromI 

No,  I  have  no  evidence. 

And  when  did^^^^jtell  you  this  rumor? 


712 


17 


wmmii 


77 


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A     The  spring  of  '86,  I  believe. 

Q     And  how  much  under  his  rumor? 

A     He  didn't  say.   He  didn't  give  any  costs. 
Where  is^^^^^^^^Hnow? 

A     I  don't  know.   Maybe  Florida. 

Q     Do  you  have  any  knowledge,  have  you  seen  any 
evidence  or  do  you  know  of  any  evidence  indicating  that 

[made  any  profit  or  took  any  money  in  relationship  to 
these  activities? 

A     No,  I  have  no  evidence  and  I  would  believe,  as 
with  Oliver  North  that  neither  one  of  them  made  any  money  out 
of  this. 

Q     How  about  Ambassador  Tambs? 

A     I  have  no  evidence  and  I  again  would  believe  that 
they  would  not  make  money  out  of  this.   They  were  U.S. 
Government  employees  who  were  doing  what  they  thought  was 
right. 

Q     How  about  Colonel  Steele? 

A     Again,  I  have  no  evidence. 

0     How  about  Adolfo  Calero? 

A     Again,  there  was  quite  a  bit  of  speculation,  rumor, 
that  he  or  his  brother,  Mario,  were  making  money,  but  I  have 
no  evidence. 

Q     How  about  General  Secord? 

A     Again,  rumors  ran  rife,  and  there  was  speculation 


l!N£L4Mlfn 


713 


18 


IINIM^HD 


78 


Co 


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by  a  number  of  people  that  he  was  making  money  off  of  this. 
They  were  Nicaraguans  who  brought  this  up  to  my  attention. 
There  were  Americans  that  brought  this  up  to  my  attention,  but 
I  have  no  evidence  nor  no  knowledge  that  he  was  making  money 
off  it. 

Q     Now,  with  respect  to  legal  opinions,  early  on  I 
believe  you  testified  as  early  as  ' 85  you  and  Colonel  North 
and  perhaps  Johnathan  Miller,  joked  intermittently  about  who 
would  go  to  jail  first? 

A     Right. 

Q     At  that  point,  or  prior  to  that  point,  had  you 
received  or  sought  any  legal  advance  with  regard  to  your 
conduct  up  to  that  point? 

A  ■    I  did  when  I  set  up  IDEA. 

Q     When  was  that? 

A     That  was  in  January  of  1985,  and  the  fact  was  if 
I  were  to  have  done  things  through  IDEA,  I  was  concernedabout 
the  Foreign  Agents  Registration  Act.   Also  because  I  was  being 
paid  by  Adolfo  Calero  that  I  was  possibly  in  violation  of  that 
but  it  was  also  felt  that  I  shouldn't  register  as  a  foreign 
agent,  because  obviously,  that  would  tip  off  the  press  and 
others,  so  the  decision  was  made  that  I  would  not  file. 

(Off  the  record  discussion) 

MR.  LEON:   Back  on  the  record. 

MR.  GREENBAUM:   For  the  purposes  of  the  record, 


714 


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mmm 


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79 


we  just  want  to  confirm  our  discussion  off  the  record  that 
while  Mr.  Owen  is  prepared  to  be  cooperative,  we  do  not  want 
to  waive  any  attorney-client  privilege  and  we  respectfully 
request  that  any  questions  in  that  area  be  delayed  until  we 
have  time  to  talk  and  consider  it  further. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q     Fine. 

Let  me  ask  you  this,  Mr.  Owen  -- 

MR.  GREENBAUM:   Other  than  what  he  has  already  told 
you. 

BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q      Right. 

Did  Oliver  North  ever  present  you  with  any  copy  of 
any  legal  opinion  that  he  received  with  respect  to  what  he 
was  doing  on  this  program  at  any  point  in  time? 

A     No.   Although  I  had  heard  that  the  lOB,  the 
Intelligence  Oversight  Board,  had  provided  him  with  a  memo 
saying  that  what  he  was  doing  probably  under  the  Boland 
amendment  was  legal,  not  illegal. 

Q     Did  he  mention  the  name  of  who  wrote  it? 

A     I  know  Bret  Sciaroni,  who  was  the  counsel. 

Q     Were  you  familiar  with  any  private  attorneys  who 
Mr.  North  saught  advice  from  with  regard  to  these  areas? 

A     A  conversation  came  up  —  and  I  don't  know  when  it 
was  —  that  they  had  run  this  by  a  private  attorney  and  that 


!lh»*l  AMlcirn 


715 


20 


end  ml 
md    f Is 


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mmMi 


80 


he  had  found  it  was  not  illegal. 

Q     Did  he  say  the  name  of  the  private  attorney? 

A     It  was  probably  Tom  Green. 

Q     Do  you  know  when  that  would  have  teen  that  he  ran 
it  by  him  approximately? 


No,  Id'-  not  know  when  it  was. 

Could  It  have  been  as  early  as  1985? 

Yes. 

If  knew  it  right  from  the  outset  of  your  activities 

Right. 

Did  you  have  any  role  in  the  preparation  of  a 
chronology  of  events  in  the  fall  of  1986? 
A      No. 

Q     November  of  ' 86? 
A     No. 
Q     Has  Oliver  North  asked  you  to  assist  him  in  the 

destruction  of  documents? 
A     No. 
Q     At  the  present  time? 

A     NO.   I  will  say  here  that  it  has  never  really  been 
asked,  but  I  want  to  put  it  on  the  record  that  there  were 
documents  as  things  went  along,  taht  he  did  destroy. 

Q     At  whose  direction? 

A     At  my  own. 

Q     Why  did  you  destroy  them? 

A     I  didn't  want  to  leave  them  hanging  around. 


miASSKO 


716 


md  1 
fls  ml 


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m&m.\i 


81 


Q    Security? 

A    That,  and  then  when  it  was  felt  that  investigations 
were  going  to  take  place,  I  obviously  knew  there  were  some 
that  I  may  have  just  thrown  out,  and  also  when  I  moved,  there 
were  just  a  number  of  papers  that  I  had  lying  around  that 
I  threw  out,  out  as  you  have  with  the  documents  that  I 
provided  you,  obviously  I  did  keep  some  and  chose  not  to  throw 
them  out,  so  that  there  may  have  been  some  documents  that 
I  had  provided  for  Colonel  North  that  are  not  on  record  that 
he  either  kept  or  that  I  kept. 

Q    I  have  an  awful  lot  of  other  questions,  but  in 
deference  to  my  Senate  colleague,  I  think  I  will  just  turn  it 
over  to  him  right  now  and  we  will  discuss  them  at  another 
time,  if  we  have  a  further  deposition  or  another  session. 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Mr.  Owen,  were  there  any  particular  documents  you 
can  recall  that  you  went  out  of  your  way  to  make  sure  were 
destroyed? 

A    There  may  have  been  some  lists  or  copies  of  lists 
of  arms,  things  like  that.   I  don't  think  there  were  any 
memos  to  Oliver.   Actually,  when  I  moved,  as  I  said,  I 
threw  a  number  of  things  out.   Included  in  that  was  the 
memo  that  we  talked  about  proprietaries ,  and  a  memo  from  a 
lawyer  which  was  used  or  which  gave  advice  as  to  how  to 
set  up  laundering  operations,  not  laundering  operations,  but 


717 


md2 

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.1 


82 

I  should  say  movement  of  funds  overseas. 

Q    And  those  you  say  were  thrown  out  just  in  the  process 
of  a  move  as  opposed  to  specifically  trying  to  destroy  them? 

A  No.  I  was  just  going  through  things,  and  what  I 
felt  I  needed  or  wanted  to  keep  around,  and  I  think  it  was 
about  the  time  that  the  investigation  was  breaking  because 
we  moved  about  that  time,  so  it  may  have  been  just  before. 
I  don't  remember  the  time  exactly. 

Q    When  this  whole  controversy  that  we  are  all  here 
about  first  arose,  was  there  ever  occasion  when  because  of 
the  pendency  of  this  controvery,  you  went  through  your 
documents  and  pulled  out  certain  ones  and  destroyed  them? 

A    That  was  about  the  time  that  I  moved,  so  I  must  have 
gone  through  and  gone  through  and  just  said  well,  there  is  no 
reason  to  have  this.   Maybe  there  were  names  on  it  that  I  didn' 
want  if  I  were  ever  subpoenaed  or  documents  subpoenaed  I  didn't 
want  on  the  documents  or  lists  of  munitions  and  things  like 
that,  but  I  can't  —  to  recreate  them,  the  specific  ones  was 
the  proprietary,  the  other  one  from  the  lawyer  regarding  the 
setting  up  of  overseas  bank  accounts. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q    Do  you  know  the  lawyer's  name? 

A    Yes,  his  name  is  Bill  Kasselman.   He  is  a  lawyer  in 
town.   He  probably  has  a  copy. 


UMiV 


718 


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IS 
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mmm 


83 


BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Did  any  of  the  documents  that  you  either  destroyed 
or  got  rid  of  contain  information  concerning  the  involvement 
of  U.S.  Government  officials  in  this  operation  or  various 
operations? 

A    No,  because  by  and  large,  the  only  U.S.  Government 
official  I  had  dealings  with  were  Colonel  North  and  then,  when 
I  was  with  NHAO. 

Q    Tell  us  about  how  it  came  about  that  you  delivered 
these  encryption  devices  to  Central  America,  and  who  you 
delivered  them  to? 

A    I  only  delivered  one,  and  that  was  to 

I  and  Colonel  North  asked  me  to  come  over  and 
take  it  down  for  him,  plus  with  the  month's  encryption. 
There  was  usually  a  cannister,  this  was  a  cannister  for  each 
one  that  would  have  each  day  the  code  would  change,  and  I  took 
that  down  for  the  month. 

I  believe  it  was  through  the  month  of  April.   I  think 
that  possibly  came  out  of  the  botched  flight  at  the  end  of 
March.   I  told  Colonel  North  in  a  memo  that  he  should  set  up 
secure  communications  like  betwee 

land  Washington,  for  the  private  aid  networ 

Q    And  there  was  just  the  one  encryption  device  that 
you  took  down? 

A    Yes,  that  was  the  only  one.   I  knew  that  Gadd  had 
one,  and  certainly  that  Colonel  North  had  one,  and  that  Secord 


719 


md    4 


GO 
CO 


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\!STO^C 


84 


had  one.   I  don't  know  where  the  others  went,  and  I  don't  know 
who  -- 

Q    You  didn't  deliver  it  to  anybody  inl 

A    No.   They  did  not  have  one  at  the  time.   I  think 
I  subsequently  learned  that  Chi  Chi  Contero  took  one  down  or 
had  access  to  one. 

Q    Were  these  KL-4  3s? 

A    TRWs.   I  didn't  know  the  terminology.   I  guess  that  i 
what  they  were. 

Q    Because  of  all  of  the  work  that^^^^^^^^^^^ftiad  to 
do  down  south,  didn't  you  and  others  sometimes  refer  to  him 
as  the  Coramandante  of  the  South? 

A    No,  I  never  did. 

Q    Did  you  hear  other  people  call  him  that? 

A    No,  not  really. 

Q    I  thought  you  told  us  that  last  time  that  he  was 
called  the  Commandante  of  the  South? 

A    No,  I  don't  think.   I  don't  remember  that.   You  can 
go  back  and  check  the  notes,  but  I  don't  remember  that. 

Q    Since  this  controversy  erupted,  have  you  talked  with 
Oliver  North  about  any  of  the  facts  that  you  have  testified 
to  here  today? 

A    No.   I  have  met  with  him  on  two  occasions.   Each 
time,  he  had  his  lawyer  and  I  had  my  lawyer.   I  have  talked 
to  him  on  the  phone  a  couple  of  times,  but  each  time  it  was  jus 


720 


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UNSk&^[D 


85 


for  personal  reasons,  telling  him  my  wife  was  pregnant  and 
other  things,  but  both  at  his  urging  and  my  urging,  I  mean, 
and  at  our  lawyers'  urging,  certainly  we  did  not  want  to  discus 
anything  specific. 

I  talked  to  him  on  the  day  that  all  of  this 
erupted,  and  that  was  the  time  when  he  said,  well,  you  know 
that  I  would  never  have  done  anything  that  would  not  been 
in  essence  ordered  or  sanctioned.   It  was  his  lawyer  who  -- 
I  talked  to  his  lawyer  just  on  those  occasions. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  ever  tell  you  that  he  had 
personally  met  with  the  President  to  discuss  any  of  the 
contra  operations  he  was  involved  with? 

A    He  would  constantly  refer  to  going  across  the  street, 
or  when  I  was  in  there,  he  would  have  meetings  that  he  would 
have  to  go  to  across  the  street,  to  go  over  things  both 
when  Admiral  Poindexter  and  Mr.  McFarlane  were  the 
National  Security  Advisers,  and  those  comments  came  up, 
but  specifically  meeting  with  the  President,  no,  he  never  said 
that  explicitly  to  me. 

Q    Did  he  ever  imply  to  you  that  he  had  met  with  the 
President  and  discussed  with  him  any  of  these  operations? 

A    After  the  shootdown  of  the  C-123,  I  talked  with  him 
about  my  concern  for  Buzz  Sawyer  and  his  family,  and  at  that 
time,  he  recommended,  well,  why  don't  you  write  a  memo  on  it 
to  me,  and  just  talk  a  little  bit  about  Buzz. 


721 


Idd  1/fls  md 


lv!kD^>^^^- 


86 


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I  said  what  are  you  going  to  do  with  it.   He  said, 
"I  just  might  show  it  to  the  President." 

Q    For  what  purpose? 

A    Probably  to  show  the  President  what  a  great  American 
Buzz  Sawyer  was. 

Q    Is  this  the  memorandum  that  you  would  have  prepared 
understanding  this  was  specifically  something  that  the 
President  might  see? 

A    Right,  but  I  will  add  that  due  to  time  constraints 
and  other  things  that  the  memorandvim  never  got  to,  I  don't 
believe  I  ever  gave  it  to  Colonel  North. 

Q    Do  you  still  have  a  copy  of  it? 

A    No. 

Q    Do  you  know  what  happened  to  it? 

A    It  was  on  a  computer  disc  and  the  computer  disc  was 
erased  by  one  of  the  people  in  the  office  by  mistake. 

Q    Did  the  proposed  memorandum  discuss  anything 
beyond  Buzz  Sawyer  as  a  person? 

A    No. 

Q    For  example,  the  types  of  operations  he  was  working 
on? 

A    No,  it  was  just  a  reflection  on  him  as  an 
individual,  and  my  friendship  with  him. 

Q    You  were  asked  some  questions  about  any 
discussions,  anything  Colonel  North  said  aibout  the  President 


IINfiliSSIFIFn 


722 


Idd  2 


mmsm 


87 


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meeting  with  private  fundraisers. 

I  believe  you  said  that  you  had  never  discussed 
that  specific  issue  with  Colonel  North.   Did  you  ever  discuss 
presidential  fundraising  with  anyone  else? 

A    I  knew  that  there  was  an  effort  underway  to  raise 
funds,  and  that  they  were  using  the  White  House  as  a  means  to 
show  that  they  were  sanctioned  by  the  Administration. 

I  also  knew  that  when  they  had  the  Nicaraguan 
Refugee  Fund  Dinner  in  April  of  1985,  that  the  reason  the 
President  came  and  spoke  was  because  of  Oliver  North,  or  it 
seemed  it  was  at  the  urging  of  Oliver  North,  and  that  that 
was  an  effort  to  raise  funds  for  refugees,  and  I  knew  that  the 
National  Endowment  for  Democracy,  Spitz  Channell,  would  hold 
certain  briefings  for  people  when  they  would  come  into  town 
and  they  would  be  briefed  over  at  the  White  House  and  occasion-j 
ally  some  of  them  would  then  go  into  the  President. 

Q    This  was  for  fundraising? 

A    Fundraising. 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  or  not  —  who  told  you  these 
things?  Who  described  these  fundraising  efforts  to  you? 

A    I  don't  want  to  use  the  word  network,  but  the 
group  of  people  who  were  involved  in  it  was  fairly  limited. 


and  I  knew  them. 

Q    Who  was  it? 

A    I  usually  knew  what  was  going  on.   I  guess  I  was 


ONCLASSIFIED 


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'mMii 


albe  to  just  sort  of  through  listening  learn  a  lot  of  things 
that  had  happened. 

I  had  known  Frank  Gomez  and  Richard  Miller.   I  was 
first  introduced  to  them  by  Colonel  North,  I  believe,  in  the 
fall  of  1984,  and  then  I  had  heard  rumors  about  some  meetings 
that  took  place  in  March  of  1984  between  Adolfo  Calero  and 
Spitz  Channell. 

I  knew  that  Dcm  Conrad  and  Channell  were  involved 
in  the  refugee  fund  dinner,  at  least  Dan  Conrad  was,  and  then 
during  the  summer  of  1985,  one  of  the  people  who  was  helping 
me  a  little  bit  by  helping,  he  was  a  student  who  was  just  here 
for  the  summer,  and  I  had  sponsored  him  on  a  trip  down  to 
Central  America,  on  a  couple  of  trips  down  to  Central  America 
for  doing  refugee  reports. 

He  was  asked  by  Spitz  Channell 's  group  to  make 
phone  calls  to  people,  asking  them  to  attend  a -secret  White 
House  briefing  on  the  situation  in  Nicaragua,  where  they  would 
be  briefed  by  Administration  officials.   It  would  cost  them 
$10,000  to  show  up,  and  if  they  couldn't  come  and  they  wanted 
to  send  in  $5,000,  that  that  would  be  fine,  and  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  I  went  to  Colonel  North  and  brought  this  to  his  atten- 
tion. 

I  said,  "Look,  Colonel,  I  think  you  have  got  people 
saying  there  are  going  to  be  secret  briefings.   Although  you 
want  to  give  them  hype,  I  think  if  the  press  ever  got  hold  of 


724 


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mmsm 


89 


it,  it  would  be  a  disaster  to  the  effort." 

Q    Did  you  know  what  the  specific  purpose  of  the 
fundraising  was,  what  was  going  to  be  done  with  the  money? 

A    I  had  heard  that  it  was  a  combination  for  the 
advertisements,  television  advertisements  that  were  being 
undertaken,  and  also  for  a  PR  campaign. 

I  did  not  know  that  funds,  as  I  subsequently 
learned  in  the  newspapers,  that  funds  were  going  to  be  used 
to  purchase  arms. 

Q    You  didn't  know  that?   Nobody  told  you  that? 

A    No. 

Q    Nobody  implied  that? 

A    No.   There  may  not  be  any  correlation,  but  when 
I  was  in  Costa  Rica  in  December  198  5,  I  was  getting  ready  to 
leave ^^^^^^H came  out  to  the  airport,  asked  me  to  —  told 
me  he  had  gotten  a  call  from  Colonel  North  and  Colonel  North 
wanted  me  to  go^^^^^^^^^Hto  work  on  a  toy  project. 

I  subsequently  —  the  flight  for^^^^^^fhad 
already  left.   We  looked  into  chartering  a  flight,  for  me  to 
go  ^o^^^^^^^l  I^  would  have  been  prohibitively  expensive 
to  do  that.   1  didn't  have  the  cash,  and  there  wasn't  any  oth€ 
way  I  could  get  it,  so  I  called  North  and  we  talked  briefly 
over  the  phone,  and  then  we  decided  that  I  would  come  back 
to  the  states. 

He  had  wanted  me  to  go  tc^^^^^^^Bto  meet  with 


725 


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CO 

CD 


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\1HS9S8**'5 


90 


Colonel  Steel,  regarding  a  shipment  of,  1  think 
described  it  as  toys  that  were  coming. 
MR.  LEON:   When  was  this? 
THE  WITNESS:   December  of  1985. 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Coming  in  from  where? 

A    He  didn't  say. 

Q    By  air? 

A    I  believe  so.   That  was  the  impression  that  I  got, 
but  I  surmised  it  was  probably  an  arms  shipment  that  was 
coming  in. 

Q    And  you  just  couldn't  get  a  flight  down  there? 

A    No.   The  thought  was  I  could  fly  to  Miami  and  then 
fly  back  tc^^^^^^^B Then  by  the  time  I  got  to  Miami,  it 
was  teUcen  care  of  in  another  way. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  follow-up  after  that  to  find  out 
what  took  place? 

A    No.   I  think  it  was  probably  that  they  got  Chichi 
Contero  to  handle  it,  but  I  don't  know  for  a  fact. 

Q    But  the  original  call  from  Colonel  North  to  go 
down  there  and  specifically  talk  with  Colonel  Steel  about 
this? 

A    Right.   Again,  the  only  reason  I  bring  it  up  is 
because  toys  have  been  used  in  the  toys  account,  to  talk  abou 
to  help  with  some  toys  that  were  coming  in. 


726 


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15 

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91 

Q    About  how  many  times  did  you  travel  to  Central 
America  officially  on  behalf  of  NAH07 

A    I  would  have  to  go  check  my  records. 

Q  Can  you  give  me  an  approximation  at  this  time?  Five, 
six,  ten? 

A    Ten  or  fifteen  times  maybe. 

Q    And  on  one  or  more  of  those  trips,  is  it  fair  to 
say  that  while  you  were  in  Central  America,  you  were  also 
doing  the  things  that  Colonel  North  wanted  you  to  do  to  assist 
in  various  weapons  shipment,  matters  involving  military 
equipment,  things  such  as  that? 

A    Yes.   There  would  probably  be  a  couple. 

Q    And  on  those  occasions  when  you  did  that,  you  did  no- 
advise  anyone  at  NAHO  that  you  were  also  engaged  in  that 
activity,  did  you? 

A    No,  I  did  not. 
MR.  LEON:   Why? 

THE  WITNESS:   It  was  not  appropriate.   There  was  a 
need  to  know,  and  they  didn't  need  to  know. 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

Q    Back  in  November  of  1984,  involving  those 
helicopters,  you  know  that  matter? 

A    Right. 

Q   ^^^^^^^^^^^^Bthat  you  took  down  there,  those 
were  specif  ically^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hweren '  t 


727 


^.Af^ 


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Q    The  incident  involving^^^^^^^^^^^|in  the  spring 
of  1985  out  by  the  side  of  the  OEOB,  the  individual  who  was 
diring  the  car  was  Peter  Flaherty? 

A    I  believe  so,  yes. 

Q   He  worked  for  Citizens  for  Reagan  at  the  time? 

A    Right.   He  had  sort  of  undertaken  helpingi 

just  being  a  resource  for  them,  and  I  think  his  group 
had  provided  some  funding  for  them,  too,  to  help  them  get 
through. 

Q    Did  you  ever  discuss  this  matter  directly  with  him? 

A     No. 

Q    He  was  just  present  in  the  car? 

A    Yes ,  and  there  may  have  been  one  or  two  people  in 
the  car,  too. 

Q    The  March  1986  matter  involving  the  flight,  the 
equipment  that  was  in^^^^^^^Hhat  was  supposed  to  be  preser 
[o  be  loaded  for  a  drop  for  the  Southern  Force? 

A    Yes. 

Q    When  that  plane  then  flew  empty  tc^^^^^^Htell 
me,  because  I  think  we  went  past  this  pretty  quickly,  who  all 
was  present  at  the  meetings  at^^^^^^Hto  discuss  what  to  do 


728 


CO 

oo 


c^ 


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UNJBOTED 


93 


about  the  situation? 

A    John  Copp,  who  was  Dick  Gadd's  representative, 
I  did  not  know  how  much  he  knew,  and  this,  I  believe,  ma>  have 
been  his  first  trip  down  there,  so  he  was  sort  of,  it  was 
kind  of  ironic,  he  would  be  making  calls  to  Gadd  and  I  would 
be  making  calls  to  North. 

I  knew  he  was  calling  Gadd.   I  don't  think  he  knew 
who  North  was  or  who  I  was  calling.   As  a  matter  of  fact, 
before  he  left,  it  was  during  an  incursion  and  so  I  kept  in 
constant  touch  by  phone  with  North  to  find  out  when  the  intel- 
intelligence  was  such  that  we  should  go,  because  there  was  somi 
thought  that  the  Sandinistas  might  bring  in  helicopters  and 
attac  ^^^ 

Chichi  Cotero  was  at  the  meetings,  myself,  Felix 
Rodreguiz ,  Colonel  Steel,  and  Ramone  Medina. 
Q    Who  was  Steel  calling? 

A    On  one  occasion  we  asked  Steel  if  he  would  call 
I  to  find  out  what  went  wrong. 
I  think  it  came  back  that^^^^^^^^^^Vdidn '  t  want  to  talk  to 
him. 

He  tried  to  call  on  a  secure  line. 
MR.  SMILJANICH:   We  are  going  to  have  to  stop  and 
remember  we  will  reconvene  at  some  other  time. 

MS.  BENSON:   Can  I  ask  just  one  question. 

Going  back  to  the  time  you  were  in  New  York  and  you 


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729 


r 


B 


94 

brought  back  some  money.,  95-100  dollar  bills  to  General 
Secord,  and  you  gave  those  to  him  at  the  Sheraton  Carlton 
Hotel.   Did  he  say  what  he  was  going  to  do  with  the  money? 

A    No,  he  did  not,  and  on  the  other  occasion  when 
I  brought  back  envelopes  to  Colonel  North,  he  didn't  say  what 
he  was  going  to  do  with  them  other  than  he  had  some  —  I  mean 
he  would  use  the  funds  for  his  operations. 

Q    Did  General  Secord  say  anything  about  the  money  when 
you  handed  it  to  him? 

A    No. 

I  just  want  to  add  for  the  record  that  on  several 
occasions  when  I  did  talk  with  Colonel  North  and  his  lawyer, 
that  they  stressed  that  I  should,  when  the  appropriate  time 
came,  cooperate  and  tell  the  truth  because  that  is  what  they 
were  going  to  do  and  they  wanted  to  be  sure  that  I  did  not 
cover  anything  up  or  in  any  way  try  to  save  someone  else, 
including  especially  Colonel  North. 

.   (Whereupon,  at  12:00  noon,  the  taking  of  the 
deposition  was  adjourned,  to  reconvene  at  a  later  date.) 


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CONFIDENTIAL 
UNITED    STATES    SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION  OF  ROBERT  W.  OWEN  (Continued) 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Wednesday,  May  6,  1987 

Deposition  of  ROBERT  W.  OWEN,  called  for  further  exam- 
ination pursuant  to  agreement,  at  the  offices  of  the  Senate 
Select  Committee,  Suite  901,  Hart  Senate  Office  Building,  at 
5:30  p.m.  before  JOEL  BREITNER,  Court  Reporter,  when  were 

present : 

Partially  Declasatied/Released  on  1  ^  vJ  A-N  88 
unoer  orovisions  o(  E  0   12356 
TERRY    SMILJANICH,    ESQ.  by  K  Johnson.  Natonal  Sscunty  Council 

Associate   Counsel 
RICHARD    PARRY,    ESQ. 
Associate  Counsel 
United    States    Senate    Select 

Committee  on  Secret  Military 

Assistance  to  Iran  and  the 

Nicaraguan  Opposition 


RICHARD  J.  LEON,  ESQ. 

Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel 

W.  NEIL  EGGLESTON 

Deputy  Chief  Counsel 

United  States  House  of 
Representatives  Select 
Committee  to  Investigate 
Covert  Arms  Transactions 
With  Iran 


Id^ 


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1     APPEARANCES  (Continued) 
2 


DIANE  DORNAN 
Professional  Staff 
Permanent  Select  Committee 
on  Intelligence 

4  United  States  House 
of  Representatives 

5 

5  LEONARD  C.  GREENEBAUM,  ESQ. 
THOMAS  HYLDEN,  ESQ. 
Sachs,  Greenebaum  &  Tayler 
1140  Connecticut  Avenue,  N.W. 
Washington,  D.  C.   20036 

8  On  behalf  of  the  Deponent. 


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^  CONTENTS 

2  WITNESS  EXAMINATION 

3  Robert  w.  Owen  (Resumed) 

.       by  Mr.  Smiljanich  ^ 

by  Mr.  Leon  *° 

by  Mr.  Smiljanich  ~' 

5  by  Mr.  Leon  ^° 
by  Mr.  Smiljanich  ^" 

6  by  Mr.  Eggleston  |^ 
by  Mr.  Leon 


7      by  Ms.  Dornan 
by  Mr.  Leon 

8 

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1  PROCEEDINGS 

2  MR.  SMILJANICH:   This  is  a  continuation  of 

3  Mr.  Owen's  deposition  that  started  on  Monday.   Mr.  Owen,  for 

4  purposes  of  this  deposition,  it's  a  continuation  so  you  are 

5  still  under  oath.   Do  you  understand  that? 

6  THE  WITNESS:   Yes,  I  understand. 

7  Whereupon, 

8  ROBERT  H.  OMEN 

9  resumed  the  stand  and,  having  been  previously  duly  sworn,  was 

10  examined  and  testified  further  as  follows: 

11  BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

12  Q    I'm  going  to  jump  around  because  all  I'm  trying  to 

13  do  is  fill  in  details  here  and  there  either  I  missed  or  we 

14  didn't  cover. 

15  First  of  all,  do  you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of 

16  Oagobarto  Nunez? 

17  A    Yes. 

16  Q    How  do  you  know  him? 

19  A    I  met  him  several  years  ago.   I  cannot  remember 

20  when.   I  was  introduced  to  him  by,  I  believe,  John  Hull.   He 

21  was  born  in  Cuba.   I  believe  he's  a  naturalized  permanent 

22  citizen  and  living  in  Costa  Rica. 


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1  Q     In  October  of  1986,  did  you  ask  hia  to  do  anything  j 

2  for  you?     «  , 

3  A     He  came  up  to,  I  believe  it  was  in  October  of  *86, 

4  he  cane  up  to  Washington  and  he  aet  with  ae  and  aet  with  a 

Am. 

5  fellow  by  the  name  of  Glenn  Robinet. 

A 

6  Q    Who  is  Glenn  Robinet? 

7  A     Glenn  Robinet  was  an  individual  who  I  was 

8  introduced  to,  probably  in  the  early  suaaer  of  1986.   It  was 

9  my  understanding  that  he  was  responsible  for,  I  guess,  in 

10  soae  way,  security  tor  General  Secord's  organization. 

11  I  was  asked  to  aeet  hia.   I  cannot  reaember  by 

12  who,  but  I  did  ask  Lieutenant  Colonel  North  about  him  and  he 

13  said  he's  a  trustworthy  person  and  you  can  confide  in  hia. 

14  Q    You  aean  Glenn  Robinet? 

15  A     Yes. 

16  Q    Who  introduced  you  to  Glenn  Robinet? 

17  A     I  believe  we  met  in  a  hotel  lobby.   We  did  a  phone 
16  conversation  and  set  up  a  meeting,  but  I  can't  remember 

19  exactly. 

20  Q    How  do  you  know  he  worked  for  General  Secord? 

21  A     He  would  tell  me.   He  told  me  a  couple  of  times 

22  and  also  I  believe  Colonel  North  made  mention  of  it  as  well . 


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Q     Why  did  you  put  Mr.  Nunez  in  touch  with 
Mr.  Robinet? 

A     At  the  tine  Mr.  Robinet  was  doing  some  work  for 
General  Secord,  or  very  interested,  I  should  say,  because  oE 
the  lawsuit  that  was  brought  against  General  Secord  and 
myself  and  28  others. 

Q     You  are  referring  to  the  Avignone-Honey  lawsuit? 

A     Yes.   The  infamous  Avignone-Honey  lawsuit. 

Q    Go  ahead.   Hhat  about  the  lawsuit  did  he  want 
accomplished? 

A     General  Secord,  obviously,  being  one  of  the 
defendants,  was  concerned  about  it.   It  was  more  of  a 
nuisance.   In  the  beginning  we  thought  it  was  more  of  a 
nuisance  suit  than  anything  else. 

Then,  as  it  went  on  and  as  the  judge  continued  to 
accept  amended  complaints,  there  was  a  concern  as  to  how  one 
could  fight  this,  what  we  felt  was,  at  one  time  --  what  we 
still  feel  is  a  disinformation  campaign  that  was  going  on  and 
a  totally  irrelevant  suit. 


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UNCUSSIFIED 


MR.  GREENEBAUM:   Hold  it  one  ainute. 
(Recess . ) 

BY  MR.  5MILJANICH: 
Q     Mr.  Owen,  did  the  discussions  thdt  Mr.  Nunez  and 
Mr.  Robinet  had  that  you  are  faailiar  with  or  knowledgeable 
about  have  anything  to  do  --  did  they  simply  involve  the 
matters  of  defense  of  the  Avignone-Honey  lawsuit? 

A    Yes,  they  did.   They  were  centered  around  that 
because  — 

MR.  HYLDEN;   You've  answered  the  question. 
BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 
Q     Let's  move  on.   Tom  Posey  and  his  organization. 


CMA. 


A     Yes. 

Q    Did,  to  your  knowledge,  did  he  or  his  organization 
have  any  involvement  with  lethal  aid  in  Central  America? 
(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

MR.  SMILJANICH:   Would  you  read  the  question 
please? 

(The  reporter  read  the  record  as  requested.) 

THE  WITNESS:   As  I  believe  I  may  have  testified  to 


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1  earlier,  I  ledrned  through  newspaper  accounts  that  there  were 

2  some  oC  his  own  private  arms  that  he  had  registered,  I 

3  believe,  in  the  United  States,  that  showed  upj 

4  I  do  not  believe  nor  to  ay  knowledge,  he  did  not 

5  have  any  involvenent  in  large  procurements  or  novement  of 

6  arms  outside  the  United  States,  froa  the  United  States 

7!  outside,  to  my  knowledge.   There  may  have  been,  as  I  said, 

8  small  amounts,  miscellaneous  weapons  that  moved  with 

9  individual  people. 

10  BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

11  Q    I.  understand.   Going  back  to  the  pi'oposals  that 

12  Gray  &  Company  and  you  prepared  for  the  FDN? 

13  A    Yes. 

14  Q    There  was  the  one  proposal  that  was  an  official 

15  proposal  from  Gray  &  Company  involving  public  relations, 

16  lobbying  efforts,  things  like  that;  is  that  correct? 

17  A    Yes. 

18  Q    The  other  proposal,  I  want  to  make  sure  I 

19  understand  exactly  what  you've  said  about  those  —  that  other 

20  proposal.   This  was  a  separate  proposal  prepared  by  you  and 

21  Neil  Livingston?  •    ^ ' 

22  A     Right.   It  was  —  Neil  Livingston  and  I  sat  down 


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1  and  talked  about  what  would  go  in  it.   He  was  the  one  that  in 

2  essence  wrote  it  and  I  delivered  it. 

3  Q     Okay.   That  proposal,  you  no  longer  have  a  copy  o£ 

4  that  proposal? 

5  A     No. 

6  Q     And  the  proposal  involved  the  setting  up  of 

7  proprietary  companies? 

8  A    There  were  several  options.   This  was  in  late 

9  April,  early  May.   There  was,  according  to  Colonel  North, 

10  there  was  a  need  to  try  and  find  a  way  to  support  these 

11  people  when  the  funds  did  run  out.   The  proposal  offered 

12  several  options,  one  of  which  was  setting  up  a  group  of 

13  proprietary  companies  which  could  be  used  for  purchasing 

14  goods  overseas,  and  the  other  proposal  was  setting  up 

15  nonprofit  organizations  which  could  be  used  for  independent 

16  fundraising  here  in  the  United  States  for  humanitarian 

17  goods. 

18  As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  turned  out  that  we  did  — 

19  I  did  show  —  I  can't  remember  if  it  was  the  exact  same 

20  proposal  or  another  proposal,  to  representatives  of  the  FDN, 

21  in  which  we  discussed  the  possibility  of  setting  up  a 

22  nonprofit  organization,  and  there  were  two  options  on  that. 


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1  One,  there  were  several  nonprofit  organizations  that  were  in 

2  existence  that  we  had  access  to  and  could  be  used.   Or,  there 

3  was  developing  a  whole  new  nonprofit,  and  also  the  FDN  had 

4  three  organizations  that  might  have  fit  under  that  rubric. 

5  The  FDN  was  concerned  that  we  had  suggested  that 

6  there  be  Americans  on  the  board  to  have  oversight  of  the 

7  distribution  of  funds.   They  wanted  to  be  sure  that  they 

8  wouJd  have  the  responsibility  for  disbursement  of  funds. 

9  They  didn't  want  to  leave  that  in  the  hands  of,  necessarily, 

10  all  Americans. 

11  Q     Did  any  part  of  this  proposal  deal  with  ways  of 

12  obtaining  arms  that  the  FDN  could  use? 

13  A     In  setting  up  a  trading  company,  obviously  there 

14  was  —  one  of  the  ways  that  a  military  force  sustains  itself 

15  and  functions  is  to  have  arms.   So  that  was  —  it  came  up 

16  that  as  a  possibility,  that  the  trading  group  could  be  used 

17  for  purchasing  arms  overseas. 

IB  Q    Do  you  recall  whether  any  aspect  of  this  proposal 

19  dealt  with  the  use  of  foreign  military  sales? 

20  A    No.   There  was  no,  to  my  knowledge  that  I  can 

21  remember,  no  aspect  of  that  involved  at  all. 

22  Q     No  aspect  involving  diversion  of  foreign  military 


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1  sales  in  —  with  regard  to  third  countries  to  the  Contras? 

2  A    No.   None  whatsoever  that  I  can  renenber. 

3  Q    Do  you  Icnow  what  Oliver  North  did  with  this 

4  proposal? 

5  A    He  and  I  had  several  discussions.   I  went  and  did 

6  have  a  neeting,  as  I  said,  with  representatives  o£  the  FDN. 

7  After  that  Meeting  I  went  back  to  Colonel  North  and  told  him 

8  what  his  reactions  were  —  or  what  the  FDN's  reactions  were; 

9  and  I  can't  remember  the  timing  exactly,  but  I  — 

10  subsequently  I  think  I  took  a  trip  down  to  Central  America, 

11  to  the  region,  to  look  at  what  was  going  on. 

12  But,  as  £ar  as  anything  else  coming  out  oE  that 

13  proposal,  as  time  went  on  it  was  decided  just  to  pass  on  it. 

14  He  felt  that  some  money  was  needed  up  front  to  set  up  the 

15  organizations  so  that  they  would  be  in  existence  and  we  would 

16  do  it  legally  and  correctly,  and  we  went  back  and  forth  and 

17  we  were  directed  to  talk  with  a  couple  of  different  people 

18  about  that  and  about  these  organizations.   But,  again,  as  I 

19  said,  nothing  really  came  of  it. 

20  Q    You  mentioned,  and  I  don't  know  if  this  was  on  the 

21  record  or  off  the  record,  a  meeting  in  the  spring  or  summer 

22  of  1986  involving  General  Singiaub  and  Barbara  Studley  in 


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1  which  you  think  she  may  have  met  with  Oliver  North.   Do  you 

2  know  what  !'■  talking  about? 

3  A     I  was  shown  a  docuaent  by  Hr.  Eggleston  at  one 

4  time,  and  he  asked  me  if  I  had  ever  seen  it  and  I  said  it  was 

5  —  I  mean  I  had  gotten  it  from  Barbara  Studley  and  been  asked 

6  to  deliver  it  to  Colonel  North.   Is  this  what  you  are 

7  referring  to? 

8  MR,  SMILJANICH:   Has  that  during  the  deposition? 

9  MR.  EGGLESTON:   Yes,  it  was.   I  think  I  showed  it 

10  to  you  during  the  deposition. 

11  MR.  SMILJANICH:   It  was  on  my  notes  in  a  place 

12  where  it  looked  like  it  wasn't  during  the  deposition. 

13  MR.  EGGLESTON:   I  have  to  say  I  don't  recall  for 

14  certain  whether  it  was. 

15  MR.  LEON:   You  presented  him  with  it.   I  do  recall 

16  it  for  certain.   You  absolutely  presented  it  to  him. 

17  MR.  SMILJANICH:   Off  the  record. 

18  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

19  BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

20  Q    I  don't  happen  to  have  that  document  with  me,  but 

21  what  do  you  recall  about  that  incident? 

22  A     I  was  called  by  Barbara  Studley  to  go  over  to  her 


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1  hoae.   Or  it  may  have  been  General  Singlaub,  maybe  called  me, 

2  to  go  over  and  meet  him  and  Barbara  Studley  at  her  home.   A5 

3  I  said  I  think  this  was  sometime,  perhaps  during  the  summer 

4  of  1986.   She  had  just  moved  into  town,  just  moved  into  her 

5  house.   It  was  warm  out.   They  gave  me  a  copy  oE  a  document 

6  which  they  asked  me  to  deliver  to  Colonel  North.   It 

7  suggested  setting  up,  if  I  remember  correctly  —  I  don't  have 

8  it  in  front  of  me  —  but  setting  up  some  corporations  or 

9  trading  companies  that  would  be  used  to  move  arms  that  would 

10  be  provided  by  the  United  States  to  foreign  countries,  and 

11  they  would  pay,  I  think,  a  higher  price,  knowing  that  those 

12  funds  wauld  be  then  used,  from  the  trading  company,  to  buy 

13  other  arms  to  go  to  insurgencies  around  the  world:   Angola, 

14  Afghanistan,  Nicaragua,  Cambodia,  and  so  forth. 

15  Again,  that  is  just  a  rough  approximation,  without 

16  having  it  in  front  of  me. 

17  Q    And  then,  what,  you  gave  this  document  to  Colonel 

18  North? 

19  A    Yes.   I  set  up  an  appointment  with  Colonel  North. 

20  I  went  in  to  see  him,  talked  with  him,  provided  him  with  the 

21  document.   He  looked  at  it.   His  immediate  reaction  was  that 

22  this  is  not  --  does  not  seem  viable.   How  are  we  going  to  get 


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1  U.S.  corporations  involved  in  sonething  like  this,  ox-  other 

2  corporations?   I  do  remember  that  Israel  was  one  of  the 

3  countries  that  was  going  to  be  a  main  player. 

4  Q     Has  that  the  end  of  it  as  far  as  you  knew? 

5  \  1   believe  I  may  have  talked  to  Barbara  Studley  at 

6  some  future  time.   She  may  have  said  that  she  had  a  meeting 

7  with  Colonel  North  to  discuss  it,  but  I  don't  think  it  went 

8  any  further. 

9  Q     During  the  August  1984  Republican  convention,  you 

10  met  General  Singlaub  and  Mdolfo  Calero  —  at  the  convention? 

11  A    Yes  —  no.   They  were  at  a  meeting  at  the  CNP, 

12  Council  for  National  Policy,  where  Oliver  North  was  speaking 

13  and  also,  I  believe,  he  was  a  member.   I  went  over  and  met 

14  them  there  at  hotel.   As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  think  I  picked 

15  —  I  may  have  picked  up  Colonel  North  at  airport. 

16  Q    Okay.   That  was  going  to  be  my  question.   You 

17  mentioned  Colonel  North  being  there,  but  this  wasn't  at  a 
IB  Republican  convention? 

19  A     No. 

20  Q    This  was  a  meeting  of  the  CNP? 

21  A    Right. 

22  Q     And  the  discussion  concerned  exactly  what? 


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1  A    He  met  off  and  on.   Colonel  North  gave  a  speech. 

2  I  think  it  possibly  was  that  evening. 

3  Let  me  backtrack.   There  was  also  a  dinner  that 

4  took  place.   I  was  not  —  did  not  attend  the  dinner  but  after 

5  the  dinner  they  had  a  reception  in  one  of  the  rooms  upstairs 

6  where  I  believe  Adolfo  Calero  spoke.   There  was  also  a  member 

7  of  CNF  who  was  running  for  Congress  in  California  and  he  also 

8  spoke.   A  series  of  conversations  just  took  place,  sort  of 

9  offhand.   There  wasn't  a  formalized  meeting  with  Colonel 

10  North  and  Adolfo  Calero  and  General  Singlaub  and  so  forth, 

11  during  these  days  that  the  meetings  took  place  —  that  the 

12  CNF  meeting  was  taking  place. 

13  Q    Did  —  I'm  sorry? 

14  A    I  was  just  going  to  say  I  think  there  were 

15  conversations  about  fundraising  for  Adolfo  Calero.   One  of 

16  the  reasons  he  was  there,  I  think  was  he  was  hoping  he  could 

17  raise  some  funds  from  the  CNF  members,  and  he  always  was 

18  invited  as  a  guest.   I  think  that  still  may  be  true. 

19  Q    Did  Colonel  North  and  Adolfo  Calero  discuss 

20  anything  in  regard  to  military  equipment  and  needs? 

21  A    They  may  have  and  think  I  may  have  mentioned  that 

22  earlier.   But  I  don't  remember  specifics. 


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Q  You  have  testified  about  a  tiae  in  which! 


I  believe  you  testified  Oliver  North  said  he  would 
take  care] 

K  Yes. 

Q     You  also  testified  about  one  tiae  in  which  you 
carried  money  — 

A    Yes. 

Q     ^^^^^^^^^Hdo  you  know  beyond  that  whether 
not  Colonel  North  did  anything  to  follow  up  on  his  promise  to 
take  care] 

A     I  never  personally  carried  aoney  again  that  I  can 
remember,  but  I  know  that  Colonel  North  did  set  up  a  means 
where^^^^^^^^^Hwas  receiving  funds  so  that  he  could  stay 
within  the  movement  and  didn't  have  to  worry  about  providing 
for  his  family. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  ever  tell  you  what  he  had  —  how 
he  had  accomplished  this? 

A     No,  not  exactly.   I  heard  that  there  was  a 
possibility  that  some  grants  were  being  put  together  from 


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1  various  organizations  which  might  be  able  to  help] 

2  out.   That's  all  that  I  can  really  reaember. 

3  Q     All  right.   I  believe  you  testified  you  once  gave 

4  money  ^o^^^^^^^^s  that  correct? 

5  A    Yes. 

6  Q    Tell  me  when  was  that? 

7  A    That  was  in  spring  of  1985.   He  was  in  town  and 

8  needed  some  money  for  his  expenses,  hotel  room  and  so  forth. 

9  I  can't  remember  what  it  was.   I  think  there  may  have  been  a 

10  second  time  that  he  was  owed.   The  only  reason  I  remember 

11  this  is  because  one  of  the  documents  I  was  shown,  something 

12  about  him  being  owed  91200,  and  I  remember  there  was 

13  discussions  and  I  think  I  might  have  given  it  to  him.   I  just 

14  can't  remember. 

15  Q    In  the  spring  of  '85  do  you  know  how  much  money  he 

16  was  given  at  that  time? 

17  A    No.   I  don't  think  it  was  —  it  was  probably  just 

18  a  couple  of  hundred  dollars,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  to  take 

19  care  of  hotel  rooms  and  so  forth. 

20  Q    And  on  both  occasions  did  you  get  the  money  from 

21  Colonel  North  in  the  form  of  traveler's  checks? 

22  A    Yes.   Out  of  the  infamous  safe. 


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Q    Okay.   You  have  talked  about  several  matters 
involving  General  Secord,  but  I  don't  have  clear  in  my  mind 
exactly  when  it  was  you  first  met  Secord.   When  was  that? 

A     I  believe  it  was  sometime  in  1986.   I  saw  him  in 
passing.   I  think  sometime  in  '85.   Maybe  on  a  couple  of 
occasions  —  we  never  really  were  formally  introduced.   I 
think  the  first  time  I  was  formally  introduced  to  him  was  in 
Colonel  North's  office. 

Q    Sometime  in  1986? 

A    No,  actually  it  had  to  be  in  '85  because  I  did 
provide  him  with  some  money  at  one  time,  too,  in  1985.   So  it 
might  have  been  the  summer  of  1985? 


Q 
A 
Q 
and  all 
A 
Q 


You  gave  General  Secord  money? 

Yes.   That  was  from  the  trip  to  New  York. 

Oh,  yes,  the  incident  with  the  rolled  up  newspaper 


Right.   Right. 

Okay. 

The  time  in  which  Ollie  North  told  you  that  he  and 
Secord  wanted  to  take  control  of  the  funds  away  from  Adolfo 
Calero  because  they  felt  he  was  not  managing  them  properly, 
when  was  it  that  you  first  heard  this  was  their  feeling? 


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1  A    I  knew  that  a  aeeting  had  taken  place  in  Miaai. 

2  General  Secord  referred  to  it  in  hia  testimony.   I  was  just 

3  --  I  was  not  fully  knowledgeable  about  it  but  I  knew  a 

4  meeting  took  place  between  Adolfo  Calero  and  Colonel  North 

5  and  others.   There  was  rximor,  it  may  have  been  Colonel  North 

6  who  brought  it  up,  I  can't  remember,  about  the  concern  of 

7  Mario  Calero  and  the  impropriety  of  him  purchasing  goods  for 

8  his  work.   I  really  can't  remember  where  I  heard  that.   I 

9  know  General  Secord  again  expressed  that  to  me  in  a  meeting 

10  that  we  had  that  may  have  been  in  September  of  1986. 

11  Q    Again  I  apologize  for  jumping  around.   Back  in 

12  June  of  1984  when  you  traveled  to  Central  America,  and,  among 

13  other  things,  you  had  a  discussion  withj 

14  in  which  they  stated  that  they  needed  about  $1  million  a 

15  month  to  fund  —  to  keep  themselves  alive,  and  they  wanted  to 

16  do  a  little  better  than  that? 

17  A    Right. 

18  Q    In  that  conversation,  I  believe  you  told  us  in  the 

19  interview,  but  I  don't  know  if  it  came  out  in  the  deposition, 
t  h  a  t^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bw  a  s 

21  A     He  came  in  during  a  conversation  that  I  was  having 

22 


with 


and  there  were  others  in  the  room  as 


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1  well.   The  extent  t}f  that  meeting  was  such  that  he  said: 

2  "Look,  we  know  why 'you  are  here  and  we  know  that  you  want  to 

3  help  and  we  certainly  appreciate  any  help  that  you  can 

4  provide."   But  that  was  the  extent.   I  do  not  believe  in  my 

5  menory  that  he  was  the  one  who  said  anything  about  funds.   He 

6  just  wanted  to  let  us  know  that  he  knew  we  were  there  and 

7  they  would  be  appreciative  for  what  we  could  do. 

8  Q    Didn't  you  —  didn't  he  say  something  to  the 

9  effect  that,  at  first,  something  like:   "I'm  not  here"?. 

10  A    Right.   I  mean  he  said  this  is  another  one  of 

11  those  nonmeetings,  in  essence. 

12  Q    You  said  that  when  Calero  hired  you,  one  of  your 

13  duties  was  to  do  things  that  Ollie  North  couldn't  do. 

14  A    Hell,  I  don't  think  that  I  testified  to  that.   My 

15  job  description  was  very  loose  and  it  sort  of  evolved,  just 

16  like  my  work  for  Adolf o  Calero  evolved.   My  doing  things  for 

17  Ollie  North  evolved.   It  was  not,  quote  unquote,  part  of  a 

18  job  description. 

19  Q    But  when  you  first  made  your  arrangements  with 

20  Calero   — 

21  A  Right. 

22  Q  —   did   he   understand   that   you  were  going   to   be 


Arp.FpnPBAi   Rcpodtpd^    Ivir 


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1  doing  a  lot  of  work  for  North  in  connection  with  the  things 

2  that  Ollie  couldn't  do? 

3  A    That  never  came  up.   As  far  as  I  can  remember  that 

4  never  came. 

5  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

6  THE  WITNESS:   I  think  I  can  answer  that 

7  satisfactorily  to  you,  in  that  there  was  a  memo  that  I  wrote 

8  to  Colonel  North.   I  believe  it  was  on  November  4th,  where  I 

9  discussed  my  decision  to  go  with  —  to  leave  Gray  &   Company 

10  and  go  with  Adolf o  Calero  and  work  for  him.   And  I  said  one 

11  of  the  things  in  that  meeting  was  —  and  I  will  obviously  do 

12  whatever  it  is  that  I  can  to  help  you  in  your  effort. 

13  Subsequently  that  was  when,  within  a  week,  I  was  asked  to 

14  take  documents  down  to  Central  America. 

15  BY  HR.  SMILJANICH: 

16  Q    I  see  what  you  are  saying.   Okay. 

17  A    So  I  don't  think  in  that  meeting  we  explicitly 

18  said  that,  but  in  the  meetings  I  had  with  Colonel  North  right 

19  after  that  and  also  in  this  memo  you  have  access  to  where  I 

20  outlined  what  the  potential  was. 

21  Q    So  one  of  the  first  things  you  did  in  connection 

22  with  that  was  take  that  material  down  to  Central  America? 


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1  A    Right. 

2  Q     Okay.   Approxiaately  when  was  it  that  you  were 

3  first  introduced  to  Richard  Gadd? 

4  A     I  was  introduced  to  him  by  phone,  either  in 

5  October  or  early  November.   As  best  as  I  can  recollect. 

6  Q     In  1985? 

7  A     1985.   I  was  first  introduced  to  him  as  Mr.  East. 

8  East  and  West  and  North  and  South  — 

9  Q     Right.   And  who  introduced  you  to  him? 

10  A    I  was  told  by  Colonel  North  to  call  him. 

11  Q    What  did  Colonel  North  say  about  him? 

12  A    He  said,  if  I  can  remember,  again  this  was  a  long 

13  time  ago,  it  was:   "Please  call  this  gentleman  up.   We  want 

14  him  to  take  care  of  the  resupply  for  NHAO,  and  would  you, 

15  after  you  have  a  conversation  with  him,  set  up  a  phone  call 

16  or  make  a  phone  call  to  Mario  Calero  and  suggest  to  Mario 

17  that  he  talk  with  him  and  that  he  would  be  the  person  that 

18  would  best  be  suited  for  handling  the  transportation  of 

19  humanitarian  goods." 

20  Q    Did  you  talk  to  Gadd  before  you  talked  to  Mario 

21  Calero? 

22  A     I  believe  yes,  I  did. 


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1  Q    Hhat  did  he  tell  you? 

2  A    Just  the  same  thing;  that  he  felt  he  would  be  able 

3  to  do  —  provide  the  services  that  they  would  want,  and  we 

4  talked  about  setting  up  ay  calling  Mario  and  then  calling  him 

5  back  to  let  him  know  that  I  called  him  to  set  up  the  —  make 

6  the  introduction. 

7  Q    Did  you,  when  you  called  Mario,  did  you  tell  him 

8  where  or  did  you  drop  any  names  in  connection  with  Dick  Gadd? 

9  A    No.   With  Mario  Calero  you  never  dropped  names. 

10  Q    Why  is  that? 

11  A    He  had  a  propensity  to  talk. 

12  Q    Okay.   You  just  told  him  this  is  coming  from  you? 

13  A     I  said  —  no.  I  said  "Mario,  there's  someone  that 

14  I  know  of  that  I  think  would  be  able  to  handle  your  resupply 

15  needs  for  the  NHAO  goods.   I  hope  you  will  talk  with  him  and 

16  give  him  all  due  consideration  because  he  probably  would  be 

17  the  best  person  for  it." 

18  He  asked:   "Well,  how  do  I  know  that?" 

19  And  I  said  something  to  the  effect  of:   "Well,  he 

20  has  been  highly  recommended  by  a  number  of  friends."   But  I 

21  did  not  use  Colonel  North's  name,  which  I  believe  is  what  you 
22 


are  asking. 


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1  Q     Okay. 

2  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

3  BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

4  Q     Was  there  something  you  wanted  to  add? 

5  A     Oh,  you  guys  tracked  down  some  traveler's  check. 

6  Q    I  don't  need  to  nake  this  an  exhibit  for  the 

7  deposition.   We'll  just  identify  it  with  the  nunbers  that  we 

8  staap  on  all  our  documents. 

9  Let  ae  show  you;  there's  a  whole  stack  here. 

10  A    I'm  impressed  with  you  guys. 

11  Q    A  document  marked  003700,  is  a  copy  of  a 

12  traveler's  check  for  $500.   Is  that  one  of  the  traveler's 

13  checks  you  would  have  negotiated? 

14  A     It's  got  my  signature,  so  obviously  it  would  be. 

15  Q    That's  your  signature? 

16  A     Yes. 

17  Q    Do  you  recall  that  all  the  traveler's  checks  that   | 

i 

18  you  dealt  with  were  these  Visa  traveler's  checks  on  the  Banco 

19  de  Pichincha? 

20  A     No.   They  were  not  all  out  of  that  bank. 

21  Q    Do  you  recall  the  other  banks  they  were  drawn  on? 

22  A     It  was  a  Popular  Bank,  and  I  think  there  was  one 


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1  other  one,  too.   God,  are  those  all  ay  signature? 

2  Q     No. 

3  Let  me  show  you  page  003702;  the  top  signature, 

4  that's  your  signature? 

5  A     Right. 

6  Q    Do  you  recognize  who  this  signature  is? 

7  A     No.   Not  ofehand.   I  wish  I  could  write  like  that; 

8  then  you  guys  couldn't  ask  ae. 

9  Q     Let  ae  show  you  003704;  do  you  have  any  idea  whose 

10  signature  that  is?   Does  it  look  faailiar? 

11  A    No.   You  don't  aind  if  i  look  in  the  back  to  see 

12  what  bank  it  is?   See,  Qviesada  is  a  Costa  Rican  bank  where 

13  John  Hull  has  an  office.   It  doesn't  look  like  his  signature 

14  but,  speculating  — 

15  Q    You  don't  know  that's  John  Hull's  signature? 

16  A    No. 

17  Q     Page  O0370S,  do  you  recognize  that  signature? 

18  A     No. 

19  Q     It's  also  drawn  on  a  Costa  Rican  — 

20  A    It  alaost  looks  like  Goaez,  but  —  I  don't  know. 

21  You  can't  trust  everybody  these  days. 

22  Q     Are  you  familiar  with  Jonathan  Miller's 


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1  signature?   Does  that  look  like  his? 

2  A  It  looks  like  his. 

3  Q  Are  you  familiar  with  — 

4  A  I  have  seen  him  write. 

5  Q  That's  0073708. 

6  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

7  BY  MR.  LEON: 

8  Q  You  said  you  got  a  $1000  bonus  when  you  got 

9  married,  right? 

10  A  Right. 

11  Q  When  did  you  get  married? 

12  A  Why  or  when? 

13  Q  When? 

14  A  If  you  were  going  to  ask  me  why,  I'd  tell  you  now 

15  I  need  somebody  to  support  me. 

16  I  got  married  in  October  of  1986.   October  19th. 

17  Q  Did  you  get  the  money  in  traveler's  checks? 

18  A  Yes. 

19  Q  Hell,  let's  see  if  we  can  locate  those.   Would 

20  they  be  in  there? 

21  MR.  PARRY:   What  was  the  date? 

22  THE  WITNESS:   I  got  married  in  October  of  1986; 


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1  October  19th. 

2  MR.  SMILJANICH:   Are  those  chronological? 

3  HR.  PARRY:   Yes. 

4  THE  HITNESS:   I  don't  reaeaber  whether  that  was 

5  Popular  Bank  or  what  bank  that  was. 

6  MR.  SMILJANICH:   That's  all  I  have.   Thank  you. 

7  MR.  LEON:   Any  questioning? 

8  MR.  EGGLESTON:   No.   I  don't  have  anything  else  I 

9  want  to  do. 

10  (Discussion  o£f  the  record. ) 

11  BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

12  Q    Do  you  know  where  the  Mandalay  Four  Seasons  Hotel 

13  is?   Take  your  tiae. 

14  MR.  HYLDEN:   There's  all  sorts  of  triflings  we 

15  haven't  invoked  yet. 

16  THE  HITNESS:   Mandalay  — 

17  (Laughter.) 

18  MR.  GREENEBAUM:   Off  the  record. 

19  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

20  BY  MR.  SMILJANICH: 

21  Q    Do  you  know  where  it  is? 

22  A     No,  I  don't.   Can  you  tell  ae? 


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1  Q    I  have  no  idea. 

2  A    The  Four  Seasons  chain  is  not  very  big.   Mandalay, 

3  I  would  say,  would  be  in  the  Orient,  Hong  Kong;  it  would  just 

4  be  a  guess. 

5  Q    That's  all  I  have,   Richard? 

6  MR.  LEON:   I  have  a  few.   I  didn't  have  ffluch 

7  chance  to  prepare  for  this,  but  let  ae  give  you  a  few  that 
6  occur  to  ffle. 

9  BY  HR.  LEON: 

10  Q    Diversion,  diversion  of  funds  fro»  Iran  to  Central 

11  America. 

12  You  have  probably  been  asked  it,  but  I  want  to  be 

13  sure  it's  clear  in  ay  mind.   Did  Ollie  ever  share  with  you 

14  the  confidence  that  he  was  either  planning  to  or  had 

15  effectuated  a  diversion  of  funds  froa  Iranian  deals  he  was 

16  working  on? 

17  A    No. 

18  Q    He  never  did? 

19  A     No. 

20  Q    So  you  first  learned  about  it  in  the  newspapers, 

21  so  to  speak? 

22  A     My  tongue  dropped  just  like  everyone  else's  did  on 


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1  November  25,  whatever  the  date  is. 

2  Q    Did  you  in  any  way,  shape,  or  form  help  him  with 

3  respect  to  assisting  in  any  non-Central  Aaerican  matters  and 

4  the  Iranian  — 

5  \    No. 

6  Q    The  Chinese  deli,  or  whatever  it  was,  place,  story 

7  you  told  o£  the  95  $100  bills  that  you  obtained.   That  was  in 

8  October  of  '85  was  it? 

9  A    No,  Septeaber.   I  believe  it  was  September  16th, 

10  Rosh  Hashanah  holiday  because  all  the  banks  were  closed. 

11  Q    Okay.   And  you  were  simply  serving  as  a  messenger? 

12  A    Yes. 

13  Q    You  were  asked  to  go  up  for  the  sole  purpose  of 

14  picking  it  up? 

15  A    Right. 

16  Q    And  getting  it  to  the  General? 

17  A    Right. 

18  Q    Secord? 

19  A    Yes. 

20  Q    And  you  did  do  that? 

21  A    And  I  did. 

22  Q    Did  you  ever  inquire  as  to  why  you  were  being 


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1  asked  to  do  that  as  opposed  to  the  General  just  going  to  the 

2  restaurant  himself  or  whatever  that  place  was? 

3  A    They  didn't  want  to  wait  until  the  banks  were  open 

4  for  the  next  day.   Obviously,  I  guess,  they  needed  the  money 

5  and  he  probably  had  more  important  things  to  do  than  go  see 

6  —  take  a  trip  to  New  York. 

7  Q    Did  Ollie  comment  to  you  about  why  it  was  $9500? 
B  A     No.   The  general  did.   The  General  said  it  was 

9  $9500  so  we  would  stay  under  the  §10,000  limit  for  reporting 

10  of  transfer  of  funds. 

11  Q    Did  he  explain  what  he  meant  by  that? 

12  A    Uhen  I  was  traveling  and  taking  funds  out  of  the 

13  country,  and  if  I  were  ever  bringing  funds  in,  which  I 

14  didn't,  there  is,  I  believe  it's  a  banking  law,  where  any 

15  expenditure  or  movement  of  funds  over  910,000  or  over  must  be 

16  reported  to  the  IRS.   I  believe  that  was  the  reason. 

17  Q    Are  you  talking  about  a  Customs  law? 

18  A    Yes.   But  I  think  he  felt  it  was  true  for  any 

19  movement  of  $10,000  or  more,  so  they  didn't  want  to  take  that 

20  chance. 

21  Q    Did  you  ever  have  any  problems  with  Customs  in  all 

22  of  your  trips  back  and  forth  to  Central  America? 


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1  A     No. 

2  Q     Were  you  aware  of  any  situations  where  Ollie  used 

3  his  influence  as  a  White  House  staffer  to  help  someone  out 

4  with  Customs  problems? 

5  A     Yes. 

6  Q     When  was  that? 

7  A     That  was  in,  I  believe  it  was  the  fall  of  1986.   I 

8  had  a  meeting  with  Mr.  Rosenblatt  of  the  U.S.  Customs 

9  office.   We  were  discussing  something  that  was  not  relevant 

10  to  the  Iran  issue,  or  really  —  the  Contra  issue.   But  he  was 

11  concerned  about  an  investigation  that  was  going  on  regarding 

12  the  — 

13  Q     Who  is  "he"? 

14  A    Mr.  Rosenblatt  was  concerned  about  an 

15  investigation  going  on  regarding  the  Mall  aircraft  which  had 

16  been  purchased  by  General  Secord.   He  asked  me  to  pass  on,  to 

17  Ollie,  if  I  saw  him  or  talked  with  him,  this  concern  about 
10  this  investigation. 

19  He  was  — 

20  Q     Where  was  this  meeting,  by  the  way? 

21  A     It  was  at  the  Customs  building. 

22  Q     Here  in  Washington? 


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1  A    In  Washington. 

2  Q     Who  'asked  you  to  go  there? 

3  A     I  had  had  several  conversations  with  one  of  his 

4  people  in  Colorado  —  excuse  Be  —  yes,  in  Denver. 

5  Q     One  of  Rosenblatt's  people? 

6  A     Yes. 

7  Q    Who  was  that? 

8  A     I  can't  remember  his  name  right  now  --  Gary 

9  something.    , 

10  Q    All  right.   So  go  ahead. 

11  A    This  was  regarding  an  incident  that  took  place  in 

12  Costa  Rica  where  there  was  a  mix  up  between  DEA  informants 

13  and  Customs  informants.   Do  you  want  me  to  go  into  it?   IE 

14  it's  relevant,  fine.   But  — 

15  Q    How  does  it  relate  to  your  activities  in  Central 

16  America? 

17  A     I  got  a  letter  from  John  Hull  in  which  he  outlined 

18  a  fairly  strange  incident  that  occurred  on  his  farm, 

19  September  or  October,  '86.   You  have  a  copy  of  the  letter  in 

20  your  file  somewhere.   Actually  it  may  have  been  —  now  that  T 

21  think  about  it  it  may  have  been  August.   It  probably  was 

22  August,  because  I  did  take  a  trip  down  there  in  late  August. 


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Q  Yea. 

A     I  went  to  Colonel  North  with  this  letter  that  I 
had.   It  was  an  individual  who  was  on  John  Hull's  farm  who 
was  arrested  and  taken  off  of  it.   He,  if  I  reaember 
correctly,  later  told  Hull  that  he  was  working  for  U.S. 
Customs  and  he  was  concerned  that  the  DEA^^^^^Hwas 
tarnished  and  that  they  may  have  been  taking  funds. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I t  was  a  rather  long, 
story  and  not  necessarily  relevant,  but  if  you  want  me  to  go 
over  it  I'll  refresh  my  memory. 

Q  .    I  don't  know  if  I  want  to  go  into  it  in  this  much 
depth  on  the  record  now.   Maybe  at  a  later  time.   Maybe  we 
can  talk  about  it  off  the  record? 

A    But  there  was  a  case  where  Mr.  Rosenblatt  just 
brought  up  the  concern  about  the  investigation  that  was  going 
on.   He  was,  I  think,  upset  that  people  had  not  filed  the 
necessary  paperwork  when  they  took  the  plane  out  of  the 
country. 

Q     What  people  was  he  referring  to  that  he  was 
concerned  about? 

A     It  was  General  Secord. 


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1  Q     Has  General  Secord  aware  of  this? 

2  A     I  don't  know. 

3  Q    As  far  as  you  know? 

4  A     I  don't  know. 

5  Q    Uas  it  ever  finally  resolved? 

6  A     I  don't  know  that. 

7  Q     Did  you  ever  neet  the  president? 

8  A     I  shook  his  hand  a  couple  of  tiaes,  back  in  1983. 

9  Q     How  about  since  you  were  involved  with  Ollie? 

10  A     No. 

11  Q    How  about  the  vice  president? 

12  A     No. 

13  Q    How  about  Mr.  HcFarlane? 

14  A    No. 

15  Q    How  about  Mr.  Poindexter? 

16  A     No. 

17  Q     In  your  dealings  with  Ollie,  initially  during 

18  Mr.  McFarlane's  tenure  as  Natipnai  Security  Adviser,  was  it 

19  your  impression  that  what  Ollie  was  doing  in  the  Central 

20  American  area  was  being  done  with  the  knowledge  and  approval 

21  of  Mr.  McFarlane? 

22  A     I  was  led  to  have  that  impression;  yes. 


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Q    By  things  Ollie  vould  say? 

A     Yes. 

Q    By  any  docuaents  he'd  show  you? 

A    No,  not  by  docuaents  he  would  show  me. 

Q    During  that  time  period,  were  you  under  the 
impression  that  he  had  any  superiors  between  hiaself  and 
Mr.  McFarlane,  at  the  NSC? 

A    I  knew  that  he  had  people  that  he  worked  with  and 
that  he  was  supposed  to  report  to. 

Q    Can  you  think  of  who  they  aight  have  been?   For 
exaaple,  Poindexter?  Has  it  your  iapression  that  Poindexter 
was  his  superior,  between  Ollie  and  Mr.  McFarlane  during  that 
tiae  period? 

A    His  naae  case  up,  but  —  no.   I  think  with  Central 
Aaerica  the  iapression  I  got,  he  was  dealing  directly  with 
Mr.  McFarlane  and  there  was  noone  else. 

Q    And  it  was  your  iapression  that  Mr.  McFarlane  was 
aware  of  what  he  was  doing  and  was  — 

MR.  GREENEBAUM:   You  said  no  one  else  —  you  meant 
no  one  else  in  between? 


THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   No  one  else  in  between,  that  I 


knew  of. 


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1  BY  MR.  LEON: 

2  Q     Okay.   How  about  with  respect  to  after,  say, 

3  Deceaber  of  '85,  when  Mr.  McFarlane  resigned  and 

4  Mr.  Poindexter  took  over.   Has  it  equally  your  impression 

5  fro«  that  point  forward  that  Mr.  Poindexter  was  aware  of  what 

6  Ollie  was  doing  in  Central  America  and  was  in  favor  of  it? 

7  \  Yes.   I  knew  that  in  the  very  beginning  Ollie  made 

8  a  reference  that  there  was  sort  of  rocky  going.   There  were 

9  some  disagreements  as  to  things  that  were  being  done.   He 

10  didn't  talk  about  any  specifics. 

11  MR.  LEON:   Do  you  want  to  go  off  the  record? 

12  MR.  GREENEBAUM:   Yes. 

13  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

14  THE  WITNESS:   Could  you  repeat  the  question, 

15  please? 

16  MR.  LEON:   Sure.   Absolutely. 

17  BY  MR.  LEON: 

18  Q    After  Mr.  McFarlane  resigned,  Mr.  Poindexter  took 

19  over  as  the  head  of  the  NSC.   From  that  point  forward,  was  it 

20  your  impression  that,  with  respect  to  what  Ollie  was  doing  in 

21  Central  America,  and  that  which  you  were  knowledgeable  of  and 

22  involved  in,  is  it  your  impression  that  he  was  aware  of  that 


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1  —  "he"  being  Mr.  Poindexter  —  and  had  approved  it? 

2  A     Yes. 

3  Q    And  did  you  get  that  iapression  froa  anything  — 

4  any  other  means,  other  than  Ollie  giving  you  that  impression? 

5  A     No. 

6  Q    No  documents  that  you  saw? 

7  A    No. 

8  Q    No  meetings  with  Mr.  Poindexter  that  you  attended? 

9  A    No. 

10  Q    And,  as  to  that  time  period,  did  you  have  an 

11  impression  that  Ollie  was  reporting  directly  to 

12  Mr.  Poindexter  as  to  those  things  that  you  were  knowledgeable 

13  of  in  the  Central  America  area? 

14  A    That  was  the  impression  that  I  got;  yes. 

15  Q    Now,  I  think  you  testified  earlier,  when  I  believe 

16  Neil  was  questioning  you,  about  a  meeting  in  summer  of  '86; 

17  between  yourself  and  Ollie  and  General  Secord,  where  the 

18  issue  came  up  of  Calero's  continuing  involvement  in 

19  financing.   Does  that  ring  any  bells? 

20  A    There  was  a  meeting  I  had  with  General  Secord.   It 

21  was  not  with  Ollie.   But  there  was  a  meeting.   I  think  it  may 

22  have  been  one  or  two  times  when  I  met  with  General  Secord  and 


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1  Ollie  at  the  same  time. 

2  Q     With  respect  to  that  meeting,  I  think  you 

3  testified  that  Secord  recounted,  in  that  meeting,  a  meeting 

4  he  had  had  with  the  director  of  the  Central  Intelligence 

5  Agency,  Director  Casey? 

6  A     Right. 

7  Q     Let  me  try  and  focus  you  on  that.   Nhat  is  your 

8  recollection  with  regard  to  what  it  was  that  Secord  described 

9  about  his  meeting  with  Director  Casey? 

10  A    I  think  it  was  a  meeting  where  they  discussed  — 

11  can  we  go  off  the  record  for  a  second? 

12  MR.  SMILJANICH:   Yes. 

13  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

14  THE  HITNBSS:   To  the  best  of  ay  knowledge,  my 

15  recollection  is  that  he  had  had  a  discussion  — 

16  BY  MR.  LEON: 

17  Q    He  being  who? 

18  A    He,  General  Secord,  brought  up  a  discussion  he  had 

19  had  with  Director  Casey  about  the  assets  that  were  presently 

20  in  the  operation,  and  I  think  I  also  heard  from  North  at  one 

21  time.   They  wanted  to  give  them  to  the  agency  and  the  agency 

22  didn't  want  to  take  it. 


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1  I  cannot  remember  whether  it  was  a  discussion  oC 

2  selling  them  or  giving  them.   I  think  it  was  more  giving 

3  them,  to  the  best  oC  my  knowledge. 

4  I  cannot  remember  when  that  was  discussed.   I  know 

5  —  I  believe  in  March,  1986,  there  was  a  meeting  which  I 

6  think  took  place  in  Colonel  North's  office  where  General 

7  Secord  mentioned  a  meeting  with  the  director  and  was  trying 

8  to  get,  possibly  to  ask  for  some  help. 

9  Q    Would  that  help  have  related  to  further 

10  intelligence  with  respect  to  weather  information  and  troop 

11  placement? 

12  A    Right.   That  was  always  a  concern,  especially 

13  among  the  pilots,  when  I  would  talk  with  them,  whether  I  was 

either ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Kthat  they 

15  always  flying  by  the  seat  of  their  pants;  there  were  never 

16  good  prebriefs  and  never  good  intelligence  or  even  weather 

17  information. 

18  Q    Did  General  Secord  relate  to  you  his 

19  dissatisfaction  with  the  amount  and  the  kind  of  intelligence 

20  he  was  getting  from  Mr.  Castilloj 

21  A    No.   The  General,  I  don't  think  I  can  remember 


22     really  relating  something  like  that  regarding 


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2  Q    You  don't  recall? 

3  A    No.   I  don't  recall  that. 

4  Q    Did  you  have  any  occasioni^  during  the  tiae  you 

5  were  dealing  with  Ollie  and  the  Central  Aaerlca  project,  to 

6  review  with  him  intelligence  report«  relating  to  funding  and 

7  supplies  by  Coaaunist  sources  into  Sandinistas? 

8  A    No.   Not  with  —  excuse  ae?   Funding  Coaaunist 

9  supplies  to  the  Sandinistas? 

10  Q    Right. 

11  A    Nothing  other  than  the  inforaation  that  was  being 

12  aade  public.   At  one  tiae  we  talked  about  —  aentioning  soae 

13  new  deliveries  that  were  coaing  in  to  Nicaragua. 

14  Q    Those  had  been  helicopter  deliveries? 

15  A    Yes,  I  believe  so. 

16  And  on  another  occasion  there  was  discussion  that 

17  took  place  regarding  an  operation  that  they  had  hoped  to 

18  aount  which  was  to  sink  a  ship  inside  —  I  believe  it  was  the 

19  Rio  Escondido,  which  would  be  going  up  to  the  Raaa  Road. 

20  Q    Has  it  your  iapression  that  Ollie  was 

21  knowledgeable  and  aware  of  increased  Coaaunist  support  to  the 

22  Sandinistas? 


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1  A    Z  would  think  that  he  would  have  been  aware  of 

2  anything  that  was  going  on  down  there. 

3  Q     How  about  that  specific  type  of  itea? 

4  A    Sure.   Obviously,  when  he  asked  ae  to  take  down 

5  the  things  that  I  took  down  in  Noveaber,  it  certainly  gave 

6  that  iapression. 

7  Q    Did  you  get  the  iapression  that  the  PDN  had 

8  intelligence  sources  that  kept  thea  apprised  of  recent 

9  acquisitions  of  ailitary  hardware  and  support  of  other  kinds 

10  from  either  the  Cubans  or  the  Russians? 

11  A    Adolfo  Calero  used  to  joke  about,  during  the 

12  cutoff  he  would  be  asked  by  people  what  he  was  getting  from 

13  the  agency.   He  would  say  he  got  a  lot  of  questions. 

14  Regarding  that,  I  think  that  one  of  the  tiaes  that 

15  I  took  down  information  to  the  FDN,  there  were  discussions  of 

16  new  BM-21  rocket  launchers  that  were  being  aoved  into  the 

17  area,  and  it  was  just  basic  intelligence  like  that,  so  I 

18  think  they  had  an  idea  of  what  was  coaing  in. 

19  Of  course  they  also  had  a  good  idea  of  when  the 

20  shells  were  coaing  into  the  caaps . 

21  Q    Was  your  life  ever  in  danger? 

22  A     There  were  soae  tiaes  I  aight  have  been  a  little 


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concerned,  but  no,  I  don't  think  ao. 

MR.  GREBNBBAUMi   Don't  be  aodest. 
THB  NITNBSSt   I  think  at  tiaea  actually  I  waa 
probably  sore  endangered  by  the  PDNa  becauae  of  accidenta 
than  I  waa  by  Sandiniataa. 
BY  MR.  LEONi 
Q    Did  you  attend  a  aeeting  in  Miaai  in  July  of  '85 
with  reapect  to  the  eatabliahaent  of  the  aouthern  front? 
A    No. 

Q    Here  you  aware  that  aeeting  waa  going  to  be  held? 
A     I  knew,  either  before  or  after,  a  aeeting  did  take 
place  where  it  waa  diacuaaed.   Throughout  thia  effort  there 
waa  a  need,  there  waa  a  believed  need  to  develop  a  aouthern 
front.   Even  though  Adolfo  Calero  waa  providing  aoae  funda  to 
:o  help  develop  it,  it  waa  juat  enough  to  keep 
people  alive.   There  waan't  any  effort  being  aade  to  increaae 
the  aouthern  front.   And  that  waa  a  concern  that  Colonel 
North  had,  and  that  I  certainly  had,  and  that  othera  had:   If 
you  are  going  to  fight  a  war  you  have  —  really  ahould  have  a 
three-front  war  in  thia  caae,  or  four-front  war.   And  the 
aouthern  front  would  be  very  iaportant  to  that. 

Q     Hith  respect  to  the  San  Jose  accord,  how  involved 


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1  were  you  in  the  negotiations  and  conduct  relating  to  that? 

2  A     Leading  up  to  to  the  San  Jose  accords,  there  had 

3  been  a  nuaber  of  meetings  in  Washington  where  a  prograa  was 

4  trying  to  be  developed  to  bring  aore  positive  public 

5  relations  —  I  should  say  there  was  a  public  relations  effort 

6  being  talked  about,  to  try  and  develop  the  support  inside  the 

7  United  States  and  the  world  for  the  democratic  resistance. 

8  I  think  the  two  documents  you  have  are  two  papers 

9  that  I  did  on  the  public  relations  effort  that  I  thought 

10  should  be  mounted.   As  early  as  January  discussions  were 

11  being  held  of  a  way  to  bring  a  united  front  together. 

12  We  brought  in  the  opposition  groups  from  —  they 

13  were  represented  by  Arturo  Cruz,  Alfonso  Robelo  and  the  FDN, 

14  and  I  went  down  there  more  as  an  observer  to,  if  necessary, 

15  keep  Colonel  North  involved  about  what  was  going  on  and  see 

16  whatever  ways  I  could  be  of  help. 

17  Q    Did  the  State  Department  play  a  role  in  that? 

18  A    Could  you  be  more  specific,  please? 

19  Q    Were  you  aware  of  anyone  from  the  State  Department 

20  who  was  involved  in  the  San  Jose  accord?   The  reaching  of  the 

21  accord?   Negotiations  that  went  into  it? 

22  A     No,  other  than  Jonathan  Miller  was  down  there  just 


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1  to  provide  InCoraatlon  on  it. 

2  Q    Hhat  was  his  position  at  that  tiae,  as  £ar  as  you 

3  knew? 

4  A    He  was  with  the  Latin  —  office  of  Latin  Aaerican 

5  Office  of  Public  Diploaacy,  I  believe,   fiut,  no,  I  think  that 

6  Buch  of  this  was  —  the  Nicaraguans  theaselves,  it  had  been 

7  pounded  into  their  heads  over  and  over  again  that  they  needed 

8  to  have  a  united  front. 

9  Q    What  was  the  relationship  as  far  as  you  could  see 

10  between  Chris  Halker  and  Ollie  witft  regard  to  the  —  Chris 

11  Arcos,  excuse  ae  —  with  regard  to  the  NHAO  prograa? 

12  A    I  knew  that  Chris  knew  Ollie  and  he  aay  have 

13  talked  with  hia  occasionally,  but  Chris  followed  the  chain  of 

14  coaaand,  and  obviously  Aabassador  Duealing  was  his  direct 

15  superior.   I  think,  there  was  a  concern  on  all  of  our  parts 

16  that  the  prograa  was  probably  not  being  run  satisfactorily, 

17  and  also  the  situation  with  ^^^^^^^^^was  very  tenuous 
IB  Chris  had  excellent  relations  with 

19  Q    Here  you  aware  that  Arcos  —  do  you  know  Bill 

20  Halker? 

21  A    I  never  aet  hia.   I  know  who  he  is. 

22  Q    Froa  Mr.  Abraas '  office? 


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A    Right. 

Q    Are  you  aware  that  Areos  and  Walker  used  to  have 
■eetingi  regularly  with  Ollie? 

A    I  knew  they  would  talk  occasionally,  yes. 

Q    I  aean  weekly,  soaetiaes  two  tiaes  a  week? 

A    No. 

Q    Breakfast  aeetings  as  well  as  workday  aeetings? 

A    As  I  said,  I  knew  that  there  were  aeetings  that 
were  taking  place.   I  didn't  know  the  frequency  of  thea. 

Q    Do  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  they  concerned 
anything  besides  the  conducting  of  the  NHAO  prograa? 

A    The  only  other  thing  that  it  possibly  would 
concern  would  be  our  relations.  United  States  relations  with 
[and  possibly  other  countries. 

Q    Did  you  get  the  iapresslon  that  Ollie  dealt  with 
Arcos  as  an  alternative  with  dealing  with  Ouealing? 

A    There  was  a  —  I  think  Aabassador  Duealing  and 
Colonel  North  had  soae  differences  and  so  he  aay  have  felt 
aore  coafortable  working  with  Chris  Arcos. 

Q    Did  you  get  the  iapression  that  Chris  Arcos  was 
taking  soae,  on  a  periodic  basis,  taking  soae  orders  froa 
North  and  he  wasn't  reporting  to  Duealing? 


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1  A     No,  I  didn't  get  that  iapression.   I  think  he 

2  probably  talked  with  Ambassador  Duelling  about  most 

3  everything.   I'm  not  sure  that  Ambassador  Duemling  knew  these 

4  meetings  were  taking  place,  but  I  don't  think  he  was 

5  necessarily  taking  orders  from  Colonel  North. 

6  Q     Did  you  ever  learn  from  Chris  Arcos  or  Ollie  North 

7  or  anyone  else  that  Chris  Arcos  had  been  visited  at  the  State 

8  Department  by  people  in  early  1986,  complaining  about  Gadd, 

9  Secord  and  the  possible  involvement  of  Tom  Cline  in  the 

10  conducting  of  th«ir  NHAO  flights? 

11  A    Yes. 

12  Q     Who  told  you  about  it? 

13  A    Chris  told  me. 

14  Q  Chris    told   you? 

15  A  Yes. 

16  Q  Has   Ollie   present? 

17  A  No. 

18  Q    Why  did  Chris  tell  you? 

19  A    He  knew  that  I  knew  these  people  and  also  knew 

20  that  I  was  close  to  Ollie.   And  these  people  had  come  in  with 

21  a  concern  that  there  was  mismanagement  and  perhaps  money  was 

22  not  being  spent  right.   I  think,  also,  they  had  a  concern 


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1  that  they  weren't  part  of  the  action. 

2  Q  Did  Chris 'express  any  concern  to  you  on  his  part 

3  that  there  were  people  involved  here  in  the  for«  of  Cline's 

4  people  who  might  be  defrauding  the  governaent? 

5  AX  can't  remesber  Cline's  name  being  brought  up, 

6  but  certainly  Gadd,  Secord  and  — 

7  Q    How  about  the  naae  Hilson? 

8  A     No,  I  don't  believe  his  naae  was  brought  up. 

9  Q     Did  Arcos  tell  you  that  these  people  warned  him 

10  that  Ollie  could  get  in  trouble  by  associating  --  having 

11  anything  to  do  with  these  people? 

12  A    yes. 

13  Q     Did  you  provide  hia  with  any  information  to  all  ay 

14  his  fears  in  that  regard? 

15  A    To  allay  Arcos'  fears? 

16  Q    yes. 

17  A    No. 

18  Q     Did  you  give  hia  any  opinion  that  you  didn't  think 

19  anyone  was  being  defrauded? 

20  A     No.   I  just  said  that  —  the  only  thing  I  can 

21  think  I  would  have  said  is  it's  a  problea  that  a  lot  of 

22  people  are  concerned  about. 


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1  Q     But  you  were  on  the  scene? 

2  A     Right.   By  "on  the  scene"  -- 

3  Q     You  were  down  there.   He  wasn't,  Arcos  wasn't. 

4  A     Right.   Right. 

5  Q     Did  you  relay  to  hia  the  impression  that  you 

6  didn't  think  that  the  State  Departaent  was  getting  ripped  off 

7  at  that  point? 

8  A     Yes.   Cline's  naae  really  didn't  cone  up  because 

9  he  wasn't  involved  with  NHAO  that  I  know  of. 

10  There  was  --  there  were  concerns  that  had  been 

11  voiced  to  He  by  Hario  Calero  and  others  about  Gadd  and 

12  certainly  about  General  Secord,  and  1  had  had  a  conversation 

13  with,  I  think  soae  of  the  —  at  least  one  of  the  people  who 

14  had  gone  in  to  see  Arcos,  where  they  voiced  the  same  thing. 

15  It  was  about  this  tiae  that  I  also  wrote  the  aeao 

16  to  Colonel  North  which  was,  I  think  dated,  now,  March  26th, 

17  in  which  I  brought  up  Toa  Cline's  naae  and  General  Secord 's 

18  naaes  and  those  concerns . 

19  Q     And  do  you  have  any  knowledge  as  to  whether  Arcos 

20  discussed  those  concerns  with  Ollie  hiaself? 

21  A     I  would  imagine  he  probably  brought  them  up,  but  I 

22  don't  know  for  sure.   I  never  asked,  or  he  may  have  told  me 


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1  and   I    forgot. 

2  Q    Do  you  have  any  knowledge  whether  Duealing  did? 

3  &    I  think  Aabassador  Ouealing  was  always  suspect  oC 

4  just  about  everything,  and  I  don't  really  know  whether  Chris 

5  really  discussed  it  with  hia  or  not. 

6  Q    I  think  Terry  asked  you  a  question  about  giving 

7  . aoney  to  Robelo  on  one  occasion  —  two  occasions,  I  think 

8  they  were,  for  expenses  when  he  was  here  in  Hashington. 

9  &    Right. 

10  Q    On  those  occasions  when  you  gave  hia  aoney  for 

11  expenses,  on  either  of  those  occasions  was  there  any  question 

12  in  your  aind  as  to  the  propriety  of  giving  aoney  that  was 

13  being  raised  froa  private  individuals  to  help  a  cause  in 

14  Central  Aaerica,  to  having  one  of  their  leaders  stay  here  in 

15  town  at  a  hotel  and  whatever  other  expenses  he  had  here  in 

16  town? 

17  A    I  think  I  can  answer  that  by  a  little  vignette. 
One    the  that^^^^^^^^^^^Bwas  up  in 

19  '85  —  it  wasn't  the  first  tiae  he  had  been  here  but  it  was 

20  right  after,  I  think,  UNO  had  been  fioraed  or  the  San  Jose 

21  accords  had  been  foraed.   He  even  voiced  concerns:   "Should  I 

22  be  staying  at  a  place  such  as  the  Marbury  House?   Does  it 


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1  look  like  it's  too  ritzy?"   Compare  that  with  Calero  who  was 

2  always  staying  at  the  Hay  Adams  or  the  Sheraton  Carlton. 

3  There  was  a  difEerence  in  that,  but  I  think  these  people's 

4  expenses  had  to  be  taken  care  o£,  so  I  didn't  see  any 

5  impropriety  in  that. 

€  I'm  going  to  go  back  to  something  that  we  had 

7  talked  about  that  Tom  had  asked.   I  bring  this  up  because  I 

8  thought  about  what  you  were  asking  regarding  the 

9  Honey-Avignone  issue. 

10  This  is  regardless  of  the  lawsuit,  in  that  there 

11  was  always  a  concern  that  they  may  have  been  agents  of  the 

12  other  side,  if  not  active,  at  least  passive.   And  I  think 

13  that  at  one  point  it  was  brought  up  that  a 

14  counterintelligence  operation  should  be  mounted  against  them 

15  because  of  this  possibility.   But  a  decision  was  made  —  my 

16  understanding  at  the  highest  levels  —  not  to  undertake 

17  that. 

18  BY  MR.  SHILJANICH: 

19  Q     What  do  you  mean  the  highest  levels? 

20  A     From  my  knowledge,  to  mount  a  counterintelligence 

21  program  against  an  American  citizen,  it  has  to  be  agreed  to 

22  by  the  director  of  the  Central  Intelligence  Agency  and  the 


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1  Attorney  General . 

2  Q    W\o   told  you  that  this  decision  had  been  aade  at 

3  the  hi(;hest  levels? 

4  .   .    A     It  was  voiced  to  ae  on  at  least  one  occasion  by,  I 

by  the^^^l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^and 

6  then  the  ambassador  aay  have  said  soaething  to  that  effect. 

7  Q    Aabassador  Taabs? 

8  A    Yes.   It  was  felt  there  was  enough  circumstantial 

9  evidence  that  could  be  undei'taken,  but  perhaps  because  there 

10  were  reporters  or  perhaps  because  they  were  involved  in  a 

11  lawsuit,  the  decision  was  aade  not  to  do  this. 

12  Q    What  was  the  genesis  of  this  idea?   Mho  was  the 

13  genesis  of  the  idea? 

14  A     I  think  it  was  —  I 'a  not  sure  that  I  know  who  the 

15  genesis  of  it  was.   But,  it  was  just  a  concern  and  it  had 

16  been  voiced  by  a  nuaber  of  people  that  they  were  working  for 

17  the  other  side  and  perhaps  providing  either  a  disinforaation 

18  prograa  or  aisinforaation  prograa  or  active  intelligence  to 

19  the  other  side. 

20  HR.  SMILJANICH:   Thank  you. 

21  MR.  LEON:   I  don't  have  anything  aore. 

22  MR.  EGGLESTON:   Are  you  done?   I  have,  now  that  — 


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1  I  just  have  a  real  quick  little  area. 

2  BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

3  Q     In  August  of  1986,  Colonel  North  met  with 

4  representatives  of  the  House  Select  Coaait  on  Intelligence. 

5  A    Yes . 

6  Q     Did  you  know  he  was  going  to  do  that? 

7  A    I  knew  that  a  resolution,  I  believe,  had  been 

8  passed  which  named  specifically  General  Singlaub,  John  Hull, 

9  and  myself. 

10  I  later  learned  that  he  did  meet  with  them  in 

11  August.   I  asked  him  what  he  said  about  his  knowledge  of  me 

12  and  he  said  —  I  told  them  that  yes,  I  knew,  had  met  you  on 

13  occasion,  but  —  I  believe  he  said  you  did  not  work  for  me  or 

14  something  to  that  effect,  but  he  knew  I  was  involved  in 

15  helping  the  resistance.   I  can't  really  remember  what  it  was 

16  that  he  said,  but  he  did  mention  that  he  was  asked  about  me. 

17  Q    Did  he  indicate  to  you  whether  he  had  —  he 

18  believed  he  had  been  truthful  or  untruthful  before  the 

19  Committee  about  his  relationship  with  you? 

20  A    He  didn't  really  say.   It  was  just  in  passing.   He 

21  said:   Yes,  I  was  asked  about  you  and  I  said  yes,  I  met  you 

22  on  a  couple  of  occasions.   He  didn't  go  into  any  great  depth. 


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1  nor  do  I  think  he  went  back  in  his  calendar  to  see  how  aany 

2  times  I  had  been  in  to  see  him. 

3  Q     I  take  it  --  maybe  this  is  conclusory  —  I  take 

4  it,  though,  if  he  had  told  them  he  met  you  on  a  couple  of 

5  occasions,  that  would  have  been  an  independent  estimation  of 

6  how  many  times  he  met  you? 

7  A     Yes.   There  were  times  not  only  on  his  calendar  we 

8  met,  but  there  were  times  we  met  outside  of  the  building  just 

9  so  I  won't  keep  showing  up  on  the  computer  all  the  time. 

10  Q     Did  he  indicate  whether  or  not  he  had  been  asked 

11  about  whether  he  was  involved  with  you  in  supplying  the 

12  Contras? 

13  A     He  didn't  indicate  one  way  or  the  other. 

14  Q     Do  you  remember  anything  else  he  said  to  you 

15  afterwards  about  the  meeting? 

16  A     No.   By  that  time  the  meetings  that  I  would  have 

17  with  him  were  —  usually  few  and  infrequent.   He  was  a  busy 

18  man  and  I  didn't  want  to  take  up  a  lot  of  his  time. 

19  Q     Okay.   In  the  summer  --  well,  let  me  ask  one  more 

20  on  that  line. 

21  Before  he  had  the  meeting  with  the  members,  did  he 

22  talk  to  you  about  how  he  would  respond  to  the  question? 


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1  A     I  brought  it  up  to  hia  once.   I  believe  the 

2  iieasure   was    passed    in   June.       I   can't   remember.       But    I    believe 

3  I  brought  it  up  with  him  once  and  asked  him  how  he  was  going 

4  to  respond  to  it?   He  said:   Well,  I  don't  know.   Maybe  I 

5  won't  have  to  respond  to  it. 

6  Q     But  that's  the  only  question  or  only  conversation 

7  you  recall  with  him  about  how  he  would  respond  to  the 

8  resolution  of  inquiry? 

9  A     Yes.   We  never  talked  about  it,  laid  out  a  plan 

10  what  he  should  say  or  shouldn't  say;  no. 

11  Q    The  summer  of  '85  he  was  —  it  was  a  similar, 

12  although  it  was  not  pursuant  to  a  resolution  of  inquiry, 

13  there  was  a  similar  investigation  into  his  activities.   Did 

14  you  ever  speak  to  him  about  that? 

15  A    Yes.   On  several  occasions  he  had  a  concern  for 

16  these  investigations,  and  I  think  there  was  at  least  two  or 

17  three  times  when  he  felt  that  he  was  going  to,  potentially, 

18  be  out  the  door,  and  leave  the  NHC.   But  he  seemed  to  have 

19  been  a  cat  with  nine  lives  and  continued  to  survive. 

20  Q     Did  he  ever  tell  you  about  about  any  attempts  to 

21  alter   documents? 

22  A  No. 


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1  Q    Or  reaove  docuaents  froa  the  official  systea? 

2  A     No.   The  only  conversation  we  had  about  docuaents 

3  was  the  one  tiae  I  asked  hia  about  what  happened  to  aine?   He 

4  told  ae  they  were  in  a  safe  place;  and  obviously  they  were. 

5  You  have  thea  all. 

6  Q    That's  right.   He  kept  thea  in  his  safes. 

7  I  don't  have  anything. 

8  MR.  LEON:   I  just  want  to  follow  up  a  couple  o£ 

9  questions  on  the  last  point  you  just  aade. 

10  BY  MR.  LEON: 

11  Q    Did  he  recount  to  you  a  aeeting  with  McParlane 

12  with  respect  to  certain  docuaents  that  McFarlane  was  troubled 

13  about,  as  to  his,  Ollie's,  involveaent  in  Central  Aaerica? 

14  Did  he  ever  recount  a  aeeting  to  you  about  that? 

15  A    No,  not  at  this  tiae.   I  don't  reaeaber  that. 
1€           Q     Do  you  recall  hia  ever  telling  you  how  he 

17  explained  to  McFarlane  his  involveaent  with  respect  — 

18  McFarlane 's  difficulties  with  what  he  was  doing? 

19  A    No.   I  was  always  under  the  assuaption  that 

20  Mr.  McFarlane  knew  what  it  was  that  he  was  doing  and  we  were 

21  all  working  under  the  aegis,  although  not  being  U.S. 

22  Governaent  eaployees,  but  at  the  behest  of  the  United  States 


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1  Government.   He  once  likened  it  to  one  of  FDR's 

2  representatives  who  was  a  private  citizen  yet  did  things  in  a 

3  private  way  for  the  president. 

4  Q     Diploaat  without  portfolio? 

5  A     Yes,  not  being  a  representative  of  the  United 

6  States  Governaent. 

7  MR.  EGGLESTON;   I  have  nothing  further. 

8  HR.  SMILJANICH:   No. 

9  HS.  DORNAN:   I  just  have  soae  questions. 

10  BY  MS.  DORNAN: 

11  Q    Could  you  give  us  your  own  assessment  of  both 

12  Secord  and  the  NHAO  operations  in  Central  America? 

13  A    Let  «e  go  with  the  NHAO  operation  first.   I  don't 

14  think  Congress  could  have  put  together  a  worse  package.   On 

15  one  hand,  it's  like  giving  someone  the  keys  to  a  Cadillac  and 

16  then  saying  don't  drive  it,  in  that  there  was  plenty  of 

17  opportunity  with  the  way  it  was  going  to  be  managed  for 

18  sisuse  of  funds. 

19  I  brought  this  up  to  Ambassador  Duemling  and  to 

20  Colonel  North,  because  there  was  no  way  to  verify  the 

21  expenses. 

22  One  of  the  things  that  I  suggested  was  that  you 


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1  put  people  in  Central  Aaerica  or  set  up  bank  accounts,  and 

2  have  someone  down  there  who  would  be  writing  the  checks,  or 

3  have,  in  essence,  bean  counters,  to  ensure  that  the  funds 

4  were  properly  spent  and  not  aisspent.   The  way  it  was 

5  structured  there  was  plenty  of  latitude  for  people  to  ■isuse 

6  it.   And  then  to  have  Congress  turn  around  and  say  the  aoney 

7  was  aisused  is  as  auch  Congress'  fault  as  anyone  else's 

8  fault. 

9  As  far  as  General  Secord,  the  tiaes  I  aet  hia  he 

10  was  always  cordial  and  direct.   I  would  like  to  relay  a  story 

11  that  I  had,  or  a  aeeting  I  had  with  Colonel  North  in  which  I 

12  brought  up  the  concerns  that  had  been  voiced  about  General 

13  Secord  and  Colonel  North's  coaaents  was:   "The  aan  is  a  great 

14  Aaerican.   He's  not  aaking  any  aoney  off  of  this.   He  is 

15  serving  his  country,  and  when  the  story  coaes  out  as  far  as 

16  what  his  coaaitaent  has  been,  I  think  that  he  will  be  looked 

17  upon  as  both  an  honorable  aan  and  a  patriot." 
le  BY  MR.  LEONi 

19  Q    Did  you  ever  see  any  evidence  to  indicate  he  was 

20  Baking  money  on  the  side  or  taking  aoney? 

21  A    No.   There  was  —  I 'a  not  sure  who  was  —  let  ae 

22  rephrase    that. 


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1  Those  involved  in  this  Nicaraguan  operation  seemed 

2  to  enjoy  Machiavellian  politics,  lies,  deceit,  and  scurrilous 

3  rumor,  and  there's  a  nuaber  oC  people  that  spread  those  types 

4  of  ruaors  that  General  Secord,  Oliver  North  and  others  were 

5  aaicing  aoney  out  of  this  operation. 

6  Q    you  never  saw  any  evidence  to  indicate  that? 

7  A    No,  but  plenty  of  people  brought  it  up. 

8  Do  you  want  to  ask  ne  what  I  think  about  the 

9  operation  itself? 

10  MS.  DORNAN:   Yes. 

11  MR.  LEON:   Tfes. 

12  THE  WITNESS :   Save  it  for  the  cables. 

13  MR.  SMILJANICH:   If  there's  no  aore,  then  I  guess 

14  that  concludes  the  deposition. 

15  MR.  EGGLESTON;   I  would  like  to  go  over  sdae  stutJ; 

16  with  hia  but  — 

17  MR.  HYLDEN:   We  are  off  the  record,  then? 

18  MR.  LEON:   He  are  off. 

19  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

20  •  (Whereupon,  at  6:40  p. a.,  the  deposition  was 

21  concluded.) 
22 


m^y^EE), 


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DEPOSITION  OF  ROBERT  OWEN 


Thursday,  October  1,  1987 


U.S.  House  of  Representatives, 

Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 
Arms  Transactions  with  Iran, 

Washington,  D.C. 


The  deposition  convened  at  10:37  a.m.,  in  Room  2154, 
Rayburn  House  0££ice  Building. 

Present:   Ken  Ballen,  Staff  Counsel;  Pam  Naughton, 
Staff  Counsel;  Bob  Bermingheun,  Investigator;  and  Richard  Leon 
Deputy  Minority  Counsel. 

Also  present:   Tom  Hylden,  Sachs,  Greenebaum  &  Tayler, 
on  behalf  of  the  witness. 


Partially  Declassified/Released  on_^_!~A*^  °  ° 
under  provisions  ot  E  0  12356 
by  K  Jotmson.  National  S«cunty  Council 


mmm 


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tINSimiEO 


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Whereupon 

ROBERT  OWEN 
was  called  as  a  witness,  and  after  having  been  first  duly 
sworn,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF  THE  HOUSE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

BY  MR.  BALLEN: 
Q    Mr.  Owen,  you  were  previously  under  subpoena  to 
the  House  Committee  as  well  as  the  Senate  Committee.   Your 
appearance  here  today  is  pursuant  to  that  continuing 
subpoena,  and  you  were  previously  ordered  by  the  Chairman 
of  the  House  Coitmittee,  Lee  Hamilton,  to  testify,  and  he 
communicated  to  you  an  immunity  order  issued  by  the  District 
Court  in  the  District  of  Columbia,  and  all  your  answers 
today  are  under  that  compulsion  and  continuing  immunity 
order. 

This  should  be  our  last  proceeding  under  that. 
MR.  HYLDEN:   With  that  understanding,  he  will 
answer  your  questions. 

BY  MR.  BALLEN: 
Q    As  I  explained  to  your  lawyer  earlier,  I  have  some 
general  areas  to  ask  you  about  that  perhaps  we  didn't  inquire 
into  fully  before,  and  we  are  interested  in  gaining  your 
knowledge  on  those  issues  to  supplement  the  record. 
A    I  will  do  my  best. 


Thank  you. 


wmm 


791 


Mmssm 


1  The  first  area  and/or  person  that  I  would  like  to 

2  ask  you  about  is  John  Hull.   Let  me  ask  you  a  series  of 

3  questions. 

4  When  did  you  first  meet  John  Hull? 

5  A    I  believe  in  June  or  July  198  3  he  came  into  Senator 

6  Quayle ' s  office.   He  was  a  resident  of  Indiana.   He  con- 

7  sidered  Quayle  his  Senator.   He  came  to  discuss  what  was 

3    going  on  in  Central  America,  he  had  with  him  a  Nicaraguan  and 
g    two  other  Americans. 

fQ  While  he  was  in  the  office,  he  started  talking 

]]    about  what  was  going  on.   I  felt  it  was  important  that  others 
f2    listen  to  him  and  set  up  appointments  with  others  on  the 
Hill  and  one  with  Ollie  North. 
Q    When  was  that? 
A    Summer  of  198  3. 

Q    Did  you  accompany  him  to  visit  North?  _^ 

A    Yes,  1  did. 

Q    What  was  in  general  the  topic  of  discussion? 
A    It  was  the  first  time  they  had  met.   I  got  the 
feeling  that  Ollie  must  have  done  background  on  who  he  was 
before.   It  was  a  friendly  gathering  discussing  the  Southern 
Front.   The  Nicaraguan,  a  fellow  by  the  name  of 
did  most  of  the  talking  because  he  had  been  one  of  Eden 
Pastora's  commanders  and  had  just  come  out  of  the  field  the 
past  week. 


MNa^SlcfO 


792 


VHmms 


I 
2  ; 

3 

4  : 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
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Ollie  was  interested  in  knowing  what  the  morale 
of  the  troops  was,  whether  they  were  getting  supplies. 

Q    What  was  his  involvement?   How  did  he  know  this 
information? 

A    How  did  Hull  know  the  information? 
Q     Yes. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   How  did  Hull  know  the  information 
that^^^^^was  conveying? 

THE  WITNESS:   The  Nicaraguan  was  conveying  this. 
John  was  more  —  I  think  Eden  paid  for^^^^^Ktrip  here  and 
wanted  him  to  go  around  and  talk  to  as  many  people  as 
possible. 

John  may  have  talked  about  his  observations,  but  it 
was  nothing  specific  that  I  can  remember, 


793 


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UNCLASSIHED 


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At  that  time,  I  was  with  Gray  &  Company,  a  private 
citizen.   I  had  taken  time  off  from  Gray  &  Company.   We  had 
been  approached  by  the  FDN. 

He  said,  "Why  don't  you  take  a  trip  there,"  and  I 
did. 

Q     From  summer  1984  on,  what  were  your  contacts  with 
John  Hull?   Did  they  continue? 

A    Sure.   Most  every  time  I  was  in  Costa  Rica  I  would 
see  him.   I  would  drive  out  to  his  farm  or  he  would  be  in  town 
and  meet  me . 

In  October,  I  set  up  a  meeting  between  him  and 
Adolfo  Calero  where  it  was  decided  Adolfo  would  provide 
$10,000  a  month  for  humanitarian  assistance. 
Q    What  was  he  to  do  for  that? 
A    Provide  the  troops  food,  medicines  — 
Q    This  would  be  the  Southern  Front? 
A    Yes. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   October  of  what  year?* 
THE  WITNESS:   1984. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   How  long  did  this  payment  of 
$10,000  last? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  think  it  went  through  September  of 
1985.   I  am  not  sure.   Hull  kept  meticulous  records  that  he 
would  pass  on  to  Calero  and  usually  give  me  copies  and 


795 


mmsm 


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occasionally  I  would  give  copies  to  Ollie. 
BY  MR.  BALLEN: 

Q    Did  Hull  perform  any  other  role  of  assistance 
to  the  Southern  Front?   How  did  he  distribute  the  money? 

A    There  was  a  concern  if  money  was  being  given 
directly  to  people,  it  might  end  up  in  pockets.   One  of  his 
people  would  buy  the  food,  the  boots  or  clothing  and  then 
they  would  send  it  up  to  the  border  or  wherever  it  was 
supposed  to  go. 

Q    Was  this  an  operation  that  Colonel  North  had 
approved  of? 

A    Actually,  it  wasn't  until  I  think  after  it 
happened  that  Ollie  even  knew  John  was  getting  $10,000  a 
month  from  Calero. 

At  some  point,  I  told  him  and  he  said  that  was  news 
to  him  because  I  hadn't  talked  to  him  about  it,  and  I  don't 
think  Calero  did  either. 

It  was  decided  between  Calero  and  Hull  and  there 
was  another  Nicaraguar 


796 


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mmsm 


\ 

2  I  So  Hull  kind  of  acted  as  a  coordinator  in  trying 

3  to  help  them  get  the  subsistence. 

4  Q    Was  he  involved  in  any  military  assistance  or 

5  advice  for  the  forces  at  that  time  --  when  I  say  at  that  time, 
g  I  am  talking  October  1984  to  September  1985? 
•J  A    There  was  really  very  little  military  action  going 

a  on  at  the  time.   There  were  five  or  four  people  who  ended  up 

Q  going  down  there,  two  Brits,  a  Frenchman,  and  two  Americans. 
Q    Do  you  recall  their  names? 


A    Steven  Carr,  an  American;  Peter  Glibbery,  British; 
John  Davies,  British;  Claude  MOMbM,  French;  and  Robert 


10 
11 

12 

f3    Thompson 

Hull  was  the  type  of  person  who  attracts  every 
kind  of  conceivable  individual  you  can  imagine.   Somehow  his 
name  is  well  known  in  Costa  Rica. 

Many  people  would  show  up  on  his  farm. 
Q    Where  exactly  is  his  farm? 

A    In  a  town  called  Muella,  about  30  minutes  outside 
of  Quesada  and  roughly  2-1/2  hours  from  San  Jose. 

Q    How  far  is  it  from  the  Nicaraguan  border? 
A    As  the  crow  flies,  maybe  30  kilometers,  maybe 
less.   I  am  not  really  sure.   He  also  managed  other  property 
up  near  the  border,  closer  to  the  border. 

Q     In  any  event,  you  were  saying  he  attracted  these 


liNniMfUEirn 


797 


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people. 


2  A    Hull  was  in  Miami  in  March  of  1985,  I  believe,  and 

3  Glibbery  and  Davies  and  maybe  even  Chafaurd,  I  am  not  sure, 
^    ended  up  flying  down  with  Hull,  and  I  think  Hull  bought 

e    Glibbery 's  ticket  because  he  didn't  have  enough  money, 
g  These  guys  had  been  recommended  to  Hull  by  — 

.    somehow  they  got  connected  with  Bruce  Jones  and  Tom  Posey, 

I  think,  and  I  think  they  had  some  idea  that  they  were  going 
to  be  able  to  be  training  or  provide  some  training  to  the 
resistance.  --" 

They  weren't  military  people,  although  I  think 
Glibbery  and  Davies  ^0   had  some  military  background. 

Eventually  they  ended  up  all  getting  arrested  on  the 
border  and  they  were  not  on  Hull's  property,  they  were  on 
someone  else's  property  at  the  time. 

I  understand  they  had  been  involved  in  at  least 
one  incursion  in  Nicaragua,  soroe-of  them.   They  were  thrown 
in  jail.   I  think  after  about  a  Jear  they  were  let  out  on 
bond  and  1  think  Hull  put  up  the-.money  for  the  bond. 


Davies,  Thompson,  and  Carr  all  went  over  the  border 
to  Panama  and  ended  up  fleeing  the  country.   OH^BI  and 


Glibbery  stood  trial  and  are  presently  serving  five  years  in 
jail  in  Costa  Rica.  -i 

Q    You  say  they  had  planned  —  some  of  them  had 
participated  in  one  incursion  and  they  had  planned  to  engage 


miS^M 


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ilf 


11 

1  in  military  training  and  other  action. 

2  Did  you  talk  to  Colonel  North  about  any  of  this? 

3  A    No.   I  mean  these  guys  —  there  was  no  reason 

4  for  me  to  talk  to  him  about  it.   He  had  too  many  other 

5  things  on  his  mind  and  this  was  something  that  I  don't  think 
e    was  taken  very  seriously  by  any  of  us. 

•J  There  were  guys  who  wanted  to  go  down  — 

g  Q  How  about  Tom  Posey?  You  mentioned  him. 
g         A    I  gave  Ollie  — 

MR.  HYLDEN:   What  about  him? 

BY  MR.  BALLEN: 

What  discussions.,  if  any,  did  you  have  with  Colonel 


13    North  concerning  Tom  Posey? 


A    At  one  point  I  gave  Ollie  a  list  of  the  things  that 
Posey  had  passed  on  to  me  that  he  said  he  had  sent  down  to  the 
FDN,  because  that  is  who  he  was  basically  working  with. 

One  of  the  things  I  ended  up  doing  from  time  to 
time  was  sort  of  keeping  Ollie  informed  about  what  these 
various  soldiers  of  fortune,  if  you  will,  were  doing. 

One  of  the  people  being  Jack  Terrell,  because  there 
was  a  tremendous  concern  about  him,  and  everyone,  Calero, 
Hull,  North,  me  and  others  were  all  concerned  that,  one, 
Posey  kept  talking  about  why  didn't  they  have  trainers  there 
who  were  eventually  going  into  operations,  and  no  one  wanted 
an  American  there  who  was  going  to  get  killed  like  happened 


OtUHASSIflEO 


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UWmFIED 


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f    with  the  two  that  were  on  the  helicopter  that  was  shot  down. 

2  That  would  be  just  unacceptable. 

3  So  I  tried  to  in  some  way  guide  Posey  to  tell  him 

4  you  don't  need  to  send  people  there.   If  you  want  to  send 

5  supplies,  that  is  fine,  but  don't  be  talking  about  sending 
g    a  lot  of  people  there  for  training. 

7  Posey  called  me  to  try  to  keep  me  informed  of  what 

3    he  was  doing.   I  never  told  him  that  I  worked  for  North.   He 
9    knew  that  I  worked  closely  with  Calero.   Posey  was  working 
fQ    by  and  large  with  Mario,  Calero 's  brother,  and  he  kept  trying 
to  find  out  where  CMA  stood  in  all  this,  so  he  used  me  as  a 
sounding  board,  if  you  will. 

I  think  the  first  time  I  met  with  Tom  was 
January  1985  in  Miami  and  then  he  was  up  here  in  Washington. 

Q    What  were  the  circumstances  of  that  meeting  in 
January  1985? 

A    In  Miami? 
Q    Yes. 

A    I  am  not  sure  how  it  ceune  about,  but  there  were 
a  couple  of  meetings.   Some  took  place  at  the  Howard  Johnson's, 
contra  discounts,  near  the  airport  and  there  was  a  meeting 
that  took  place  at  Calero 's  home. 

Tom  Posey  was  there.  Jack  Terrell,  Colonel  Flacko, 
a  fellow  by  the  name  of  Joe  Adams,  I  was  there,  Hull  was 
there,  Calero  was  there,  Frank  Chanis  was  there.   There  may 


mmm 


800 


UNft^fD 


13 


have  been  a  couple  others. 

Q    What  was  the  substance  of  the  discussion? 

A    The  substance  of  it  was  to  try  —  Posey  wanted  to 
find  out  what  he  could  do  with  the  Southern  Front  and  Hull 
was  there  and  Calero  had  chosen  Hull  to  be  in  essence  the 
coordinator. 

We  were  supposed  to  discuss  the  Southern  Front, 


"    but  what  ended  up  happening  was  Jack  Terrell  started  talking 
^    about  arms  and  munitions  that  the  '■■■■  jilmjca  had! 


.they  wanted  to  sell  to  Calero  and 
the  Indians  had  given  Terrell  a  letter  saying  that  he  was 
their  representative. 

So  a  lot  of  the  meeting  was  to  discuss  that  and 
there  were  never  any  substantive  discussions  that  came  out  of 
that  that  I  can  remember. 

Jack  Terrell  said  in  a  newspaper  article  there  was  . 
discussion  of  assassinating  Eden  Pastora  again.   To  my 
knowledge,  that  never  took  place.   That  was  a  pure  lie. 

In  the  meetings  in  the  hotel  in  the  Howard  Johnson's 

20  Posey  kept  trying  to  talk  about  how  they  could  help  the 

21  Southern  Front. 

22  Hull  may  have  finally  said  if  you  want  to  send  some 

23  people  to  look  at  what  is  going  on  down  there,  fine;  I  will  be 

24  happy  to  show  them  around. 

25  EventualLv  I  think  Posey  and  Terrell  may  have  gone 


ilLv  I  think  Posey  and  Te 

Mfmsm 


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1  dovm  to  Costa  Rica,  I  can't  remember,  but  someone  did  go 

2  down.   They  looked  around  and  nothing  substantive  came  of  it. 

3  That  is  how  the  five  guys  ended  up  going  there. 

4  Claude  CMiiid0  had  been  working  with  the  FDN. 

5  Q    From  the  fall  of  1985  until  the  fall  of  1986, 

g    what  activities,  if  any,  did  John  Hull  engage  in  in  support 

y    of  the  Nicaraguan  resistance? 

g        A    Really  very  little.  At  that  time  he  was  working  — 

g    part  of  the  time  I  was  working  with  NHAO.   Usually  when  I 
was  in  Costa  Rica,  I  would  end  up  seeing  him  or  talk  to  him 
on  the  phone,  but  he  didn't  really  help  NHAO  at  all.   He  would 


12    constantly  have  Micaraguans  coming  into  his  farm  asking  for 


help,  Indians  would  come  in  and  ask  for  help,  but  he  didn't 


|.    really  play  any  substantive  role. 


0   Did  h«  play  a  role  in  the  resupply  operation  in 
terms  of  aiding  the  southern  forces? 

A    Not  really,  because  that  was  a  separate  vehicle 
set  up.   He  was  so  tainted  by  then  as  far  as  being  a  public 
figure  that  th«r«  was  no  reason  to  try  and  involve  him  in  it. 

Q    was  that  a  conscious  decision  that  you  had 
discussed  with  Oliver  North  or  not? 

A    No,  it  was  just  common  sense. 

Q    It  was  not  something  that  anyone  decided  or 
discussed? 

A    There  was  really  no  role  for  him  to  play  because 


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Q  He  was   receiving    $10,000   a  month   from  Adolfo   Calero 

from  approximately  October    1984    — 

A  Probably  more   November   or   December. 

Q  Until   the    fall   of    1985    sometime? 

A  Right. 

Q    What  caused  that  to  stop? 

A    One,  Calero  was  running  out  of  money.   NHAO  had 
come  on  to  line  so  there  was  no  reason  to  provide  money  to  do 
things  that  NHAO  was  going  to  do,  so  there  was  no  reason  for 
it  to  continue. 

To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  all  the  money  that 
Hull  got  went  specifically  towards  humanitarian  goods  and 
services.   He  didn't  make  any  money  out  of  this. 

Throughout  this  whole  thing,  he  lost  money  in  every 
way  conceivable. 

Q    So,  in  other  words,  once  NHAO  money  started  coming 
in,  there  was  no  need  for  this  money  being  channeled? 

A    Yes,  plus  Calero  was  running  out  of  money. 

Q    Do  you  know  an  individual  by  the  name  of  Joseph 
Kelso,  aka  Richard  Williams? 

A    No.   I  got  a  letter  from  Hull  in  summer  of  1986, 
which  I  have,  and  it  was  a  very  disjointed  letter.   Before  I 


(llffiUiLWfl 


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iimiimiED 


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f    ever  talked  to  Ollie,  Kelso  had  said  that  he  was  working  for 

2  Customs  out  of  Denver. 

3  Q    How  did  you  learn  this? 

4  A    It  was  in  the  letter.   If  you  have  a  copy  of  the 

5  letter,  I  could  sort  of  explain  it  to  you.   I  ended  up  calling 
g    Customs  in  Denver  and  asking  for  — 

7  MS.  NAUGHTON:   Can  we  start  at  the  beginning? 

g    As  far  as  Kelso,  did  you  first  get  the  letter  from  Hull  or 
g    did  you  first  meet  Mr.  Kelso? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  never  met  Mr.  Kelso. 
MS.  NAUGHTON:   So  the  first  you  heard  of  Kelso  wa-s 
the  letter? 

THE  WITNESS:   Yes. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   Did  he  refer  to  him  as  Keiso  or 
with  another  name? 

THE  WITNESS:   Actually,  there  were  two  names,  and 
I  can't  remember  the  other  name  right  now. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   Does  the  name  Williams  ring  a  bell? 
THE  WITNESS:   Yes,  Richard  Williams. 
MR.  HYLDEN:   Do  you  have  the  letter? 
MR.  BALLEN:   I  don't  have  it. 
MS.  NAUGHTON:   I  do  not. 

THE  WITNESS:   You  have  a  copy  of  the  letter,  though? 
MR.  HYLDEN:   It  was  in  the  documents  that  we  turned 
over  to  you. 


IINClAS^Fn 


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2 

3 

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MR.  LEON:   You  don't  recall  if  it  was  an  exhibit 
at  the  hearing? 

THE  WITNESS:   It  didn't  become  an  exhibit.   We 
probably  have  a  copy  somewhere  if  you  need  it.   It  is  sort  of 
a  long,  involved  story.   I  ended  up  calling  Customs  at 
Denver  — 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   Wait  a  minute.   What  prompted  you 
to  do  that?  What  was  in  the  letter  that  prompted  you  to  do 
that? 

THE  WITNESS:   Hull  was  concerned  —  within  the 
letter,  there  was  a  concern  that  DEA,  the  Drug  Enforcement 
Agency  people^^^^^^^^^^H  were  taking  money  for  looking 
the  other  way  in  narcotics  trafficking.   The  story  — 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

Q    Was  that  Mr.  Hull's  concern? 

A    No,  that  was  Kelso's  concern. 

Q    What  was  Mr.  Hull's  concern  about  Mr.  Kelso 
saying  that? 

A    He  had  this  guy  show  up  at  his  farm.   He  was 
brought  in  by  a  doctor,  someone  that  Hull  knew  and  trusted. 
This  guy  came  in  and  said,  "Look,  I  have  been  told  that  you 
are  the  one  guy  I  should  contact.   There  is  a  real  problem 
here.   I  think  the  DEA  people  are  trying  to  kill  me.   I  am 
convinced  that  they  were  involved  in  narcotics  trafficking 
and  looking  the  other  way.   And  I  don't  know  who  else  to  turn 


UNCUSliED 


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immKB 


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1  to."  While  Kelso  was  there  at  some  point  I  believe  Hull 

2  called,  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  the  civil  guard  or  the 

3  rural  guard  —  I  haven't  read  the  letter  in  a  long  time  — 

4  anyway,  people  from  the  Intelligence  Service  of  the  Government 

5  of  Costa  Rica  showed  up.   Then  a  major  showed  up  and  they 
g    pulled  Kelso  out  of  the  room  where  he  was  sleeping. 

7  All  he  had  on  was  underwear.   Shots  were  fired 

g    and  he  was  taken  away  in  a  car. 

g         Q    Do  you  know  why  Mr.  Hull  called  the  Intelligence 
IQ    Service? 

]f         A    I  think  there  was  concern  on  his  part  as  to  who 
f2    this  guy  was  and  what  was  going  on.   Hull  is  weary  of  people 
talking  about  narcotics  because  people  have  tried  to  label 
him  as  being  involved  in  narcotics  trafficking. 

To  my  knowledge  over  the  four  years  that  I  knew 
him,  there  was  absolutely  no  truth  to  that  whatsoever.   So 
I  think  he  was  concerned. 

The  guy  was  hustled  off.   A  couple  days  later  Hull 
gets  a  call  from  Kelso  saying,  "Meet  me  at  the  airport. 
I  am  about  to  be  thrown  out  of  the  country." 

At  that  time,  I  think  Kelso  tells  him  his  real 
name  is  Williams  or  vice  versa.   He  said  previously  he  had 
been  in  Egypt  and  brought  back  over  to  Costa  Rica.   It  was 
very  bizarre. 

One  of  the  concerns  was  that,  one,  DEA  was  involved 


mtSSMi 


806 


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UNIMSIfltD 


19 


f    with  trafficking  in  drugs,  that  Hull  was  concerned  about 

2  that. 

3  He  was  concerned  cibout  whether  he  was  being  set  up 

4  by  someone.   I  think  those  were  the  two  major  concerns. 

5  So  out  of  curiosity,  I  took  it  upon  myself  before 
S    I  talked  to  North  to  call  Customs  in  Colorado  and  ask  if 

7    Mr.  Kelso  was  there. 

g  A  special  agent  said  he  is  not  here. 

9  MR.  BALLEN:   How  did  you  know  to  call  Customs  in 

Colorado? 

THE  WITNESS:   Because  Kelso  had  told  Hull  he  was 


^2    working  for  Customs  in  Colorado.   It  was  in  the  letter. 


I  hadn't  talked  to  Hull  on  this.   I  just  had  the  letter, 


,^  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON; 


Q    When  you  called,  who  did  you  tell  them  you  were? 

A    I  told  them  I  was  a  private  citizen,  Rob  Owen. 

Q    Is  that  the  first  name  you  used? 

A    I  said  I  was  trying  to  get  in  touch  with  him  on 
behalf  of  Mr.  Hull.   I  used  Hull's  name. 

Q    When  you  used  Hull's  name,  did  you  pretend  to  be 
Mr.  Hull? 

A    I  can't  remember.   Maybe  that  was  the  first  phone 
call.   Then  I  called  him  back  and  said  what  "jiy  fiame  was. 
MR.  BALLEN:   You  called  him  out  of  curiosity? 


mmssm 


807 


22 

23 
24 
25 


nammii 


20 


1  THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   They  have  a  special  agent  who 

2  comes  back  to  Washington  and  I  either  talked  with  him  on  the 

3  phone  or  I  met  him. 

4  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

5  Q    Who  was  that? 

6  A    It  was  not  a  special  agent.   It  was  someone  from 

7  the  U.S.  Attorney's  Office,  a  guy  named  Blackford  or  Black. 
6  Q    You  met  with  him? 

9  A   I  don't  think  I  met  with  him.   I  talked  to  him  on 

10  the  phone. 

11  Q    That  was  after  your  initial  phone  call  to  Customs? 

12  A  Right. 

13  Q    Do  you  recall  how  long  after  that  first  call  to 

14  Customs? 

)5  A    Right. 

jg  Q    Do  you  recall  how  long  after  that  first  call  to 

17  Customs? 

A    Within  a  couple  of  days.   He  was  coming  back  here 
anyway.   The  whole  thing  was  kind  of  screwy. 

MR.  BALLEN:   What  was  the  substance  of  the 


21    conversation? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  must  have  met  the  guy,  maybe  I 


even  gave  him  a  copy  of  the  letter. 

BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q     Mr.  Black? 


"iKOTEO 


808 


m^imm 


21 


1  A    It  is  something  Black.   At  least  I  think  it  is 

2  something  Black. 

3  Q    You  think  you  gave  him  a  copy  of  the  Hull  letter? 

4  A    I  think.   I  don't  remember.   You  would  have  to  get 

5  in  touch  with  him.   This  is  sort  of  an  offshoot  of  all  this. 

6  If  I  could  briefly  say,  eventually  I  went  in  to  talk  to  North 

7  and  gave  him  a  copy  of  the  letter  emd  said  "I  am  concerned 

8  because  I  don't  know  whether  Hull  is  being  set  up,  whether 

9  there  is  a  problem  with  the  DEA  or  what  is  going  on." 

10  He  had  had  within  a  day  or  two  before  that  a  letter 

ft    that  came  across  his  desk  that  was  signed  by,  I  believe  it  . 

12  ^as  the  head  of  presidential  security  for  Costa  Rica,  a  fellow 

13  '^y  the  name  of  —  actually,  it  may  even  have  been  signed  by 

14  Oscar  Arias  —  I  don't  remember  —  but  it  said  that  Mr.  Kelso, 

15  and  he  named  a  Customs  agent  in  New  Orleans,  had  been  involved 
1g    in  stopping  a  potential  assassination  attempt  on  President 

Arias. 

And  the  reason  that  the  name   flashed  across  North 
is  because  this  letter  had  come  across  his  desk  regarding 
Central  America  and  regarding  Costa  Rica,  so  it  flipped  in 
the  back  of  his  mind,  Kelso. 

So  it  was  all  a  bit  bizarre,  and  anyway  I  ended  up 
taking  a  trip  down  to  Costa  Rica.   One  of  the  reasons  there 
was  a  concern,  somehow  —  I  don't  want  to  get  involved  in 
this  because  it  brings  in  Honey  and  Avirgan  — 


UNCUmiED 


809 


mfmm 


22 


^  MR.  HYLDEN:   Why  don't  we  go  off  the  record  and 

2    you  and  I  talk  for  a  second. 
2  [Pause  in  the  proceedings.) 

^  MR.  BALLEN:   Back  on  the  record, 

2  BY  MR.  BALLEN: 

e         Q  Back  to  Mr.  Kelso. 

J  You  testified  that  you  called  out  to  Customs  in 

Denver;  is  that  correct? 
A    Right. 

0    Did  you  ask  whether  or  not  Kelso  was  acting  as  an 
agent,  a  U.S.  agent  for  Customs? 

A    Basically  I  was  . —  I  think  the  call  went  something 
liXe  this. 

MR.  HYLDENi   Before  you  answer  that  question, 
Mr.  Owen,  let  me  ask  you  whether  your  call  to  CustcHos  in 
Colorado  was  part  of  an  investigation  being  performed  by  you 
in  connection  with  the  defense  of  a  civil  suit  pending  against 
you  in  Miami? 

THE  WITNESS:   At  that  time  X  would  have  to  say  no, 
because  I  didn't  know  there  might  have  been  a  connection. 
MR.  HYLDEN:   Then  you  may  ansvrar  the  question. 
THE  WITNESS:   I  said  I  was  trying  to  get  in  touch 
with  Mr.  Kelso,  I  gave  the  name  John  Bull,  that  he  had 
recently  been  in  Costa  Rica.   I  was  trying  to  track  him  down. 
I  think  this  might  have  been  on  a  Friday  and  I  think  the  gist 


»mM!i 


810 


imssm 


23 


.    of  it  was  why  don't  you  call  back  either  tomorrow,  if  it  was 

2  a  Thursday,  or  Monday  —  I  don't  remenvber  the  date. 

3  I  called  back  and  talked  to  a  Customs  special 

4  agent  and  he  was  curious  as  to  how  I  knew  about  Kelso  and 
so  forth. 

e  I  said  that  I  had  a  friend  in  Costa  Rica,  but  this 

•J         time  I  gave  him  my  name,  I  believe.   He  said,  "Well,  we  have 
a    a  U.S.  Attorney  who  is  presently  investigating  Mr.  Kelso, 
a    we  would  like  him  to  talk  with  you." 

At  this  point,  if  memory  serves  me  right,  and  I 
can't  say  explicitly,  I  went  to  Ollie  North  and  talked  with 
12    him  and  gave  him  a  copy  of.  the  letter. 
BY  MR.  BALLEN: 
Q    The  letter  from  John  Hull? 

A    Yes.   I  said  there  is  obviously  something  screwy 
here.   I  am  a  little  concerned  about  it.   Do  you  know  anything 
about  it? 

He  at  that  time  brought  up  a  letter  that  he  had 
received  from  the  Office  of  the  President  of  Costa  Rica 
and  I  think  it  was  under  —  it  may  have  been  under  Alex 
MacNaulty's  signature,  but  on  the  President  Arias  stationery, 
or  it  was  signed  by  President  Oscar  Arias  and  had  MacNaulty's 
name  in  it. 

I  said  this  is  screwy.   I  said  I  eun  concerned. 
I  don't  know  whether  Honey  apd  Avirgan  are  behind  this.   We 


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,  don't  know  where  this  is  going. 

2  I  ended  up  talking  to  a  separate  lawyer  other  than 

3  my  present  counsel  and  the  decision  was  made  that  I  go  down 

4  there  because  of  the  concern  about  the  lawsuit. 

5  Q    When  you  spoke  to  Customs  and  the  U.S.  Attorney  in 
g  Colorado,  did  you  ask  whether  or  not  Kelso  was  an  agent  for 
■J  Customs  or  the  United  States  Government? 

A    I  think  I  probably  did. 


0        Q    What  response? 


A    The  response  was  —  I  can't  remember  what  the 


Ij    response  was.   Eventually  —  no  one  was  sure  whether  he  was  an 


agent  or  he  wasn't  an  agent.   As  I  said,  truth  is  stranger 
than  fiction,  and  this  is  one  of  those  stranger  stories. 

Q    So  you  don't  recall  at  that  time  whether  you  were 
told  ~ 

A    At  that  time.   Eventually  I  learned  that  at  one 
time  he  was. 

Q    Subsequent  to  your  call  to  Customs  in  Colorado, 
did  you  speak  to  any  agent  of  Customs  in  Washington,  D.C.? 

MR.  HYLDEN:   Other  than  in  connection  with 
investigating  the  civil  suit  that  you  were  involved  with. 
THE  WITNESS:   We  are  going  to  run  into  a  brick 
wall. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   Then  we  have  a  brick  wall.   That  is 
all  we  can  do  about  it.   I  don't  want  you  to  testify  about 


UNOA&yNFD 


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nmmm 


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work  you  did  investigating  —  the  investigation  in  connection 
with  the  civil  suit  in  this. 

THE  WITNESS:   Sorry. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   Let's  ask  this  question:   Presuming 
that  such  a  meeting  did  occur  in  Washington,  D.C.  between 
.    yourself  and  officials  or  an  official  of  the  U.S.  Customs, 
_    did  you  explain  to  that  official  that  you  were  investigating 
a  civil  lawsuit? 

MR.  HYLOEN:   Don't  answer  the  question. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  have  to  listen  to  my  counsel. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   Did  you  receive  anything  from 
that  U.S.  Customs  official  regarding  Mr.  Kelso? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  can't  answer. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   What  U.S.  official? 

Would  you  clarify  your  question?  What  Customs 
official  and  when? 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   He  wouldn't  answer  the  question. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   He  has  answered  a  lot  of  questions 
including  questions  about  conversations  with  Customs 
officials  in  Colorado. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   You  mentioned  that  you  called  U.S. 
Customs  in  Colorado  —  this  is  prior  to  consulting  with  an 
attorney. 

THE  WITNESS:   Right. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   What  was  the  name  of  the  Customs 


mmim 


813 


mBm.fi 


26 


J    official  to  whom  you  spoke  in  Denver? 

2  THE  WITNESS:   His  name  is  Gary  —  I  don't  Jcnow 

2         his  last  name. 

4  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

5  Q    Is  it  Hillberry? 

g         A    That  might  be  right. 

J  Q    Did  you  speak  to  anyone  other  them  Mr.  Hillberry 

g    during  that  conversation? 

g         A    I  don't  believe  in  that  first  conversation  that 
I  did. 

Q    And  the  second  conversation  with  Mr.  Hillberry 
.,    took  place  when? 

A  At  a  subsequent  time  within  a  few  days  and  at  that 
time  I  believe  that  Mr.  Black,  and  I  don't  know  —  you,  I  am 
sure,  know  the  name  — 

MR.  HYLDEN:   Can  you  help  him  on  that? 
MS.  NAUGHTON:   It  is  Mr.  Black. 
THE  WITNESS:   I  did  talk  with  him  on  the  phone 
at  some  subsequent  time  within  a  framework  of  a  few  days, 
right . 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   When  you  spoke  to  Mr.  Black,  how 
did  you  identify  yourself? 

THE  WITNESS:   As  Rob  Owen,  private  citizen,  who 
worked  for  a  group  called  the  Institute  on  Terrorism  and 
Subnational  Conflict. 


wmmm 


814 


(fNERSSinEO 


27 


J  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

2  Q    Had  you  in  the  meantime  spoken  to  Colonel  North? 

3  A    I  don't  remember  whether  I  spoke  to  North  before 
^    or  after  that  conversation. 

e        Q    Had  Colonel  North  told  you  that  he  had  spoken  to 
e    anyone  at  Customs? 

•        A    Not  when  I  first  met  him,  because  when  I  first 
o    talked  with  him,  he  didn't  know  anything  about  it. 
a        Q    Subsequent  to  your  conversation  when  you  told  him 

about  it,  do  you  know  whether  or  not  Colonel  North  spoke  to 
anyone  at  Customs? 

A    I  think  at  this  point  is  where  the  concern  that 
involved  the  lawsuit  —  I  think  I  talked  with  a  lawyer  at 
some  point  and  a  decision  was  made  that  this  was  regarding  the 
lawsuit,  that  there  was  some  connection. 

I  don't  know  whether  you  wemt  me  to  answer  that  or 
not. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   I  don't  want  you  to  answer  it.   I  am 
willing  to  talk  to  you  off  the  record  to  see  if  there  is  a  way 
to  get  around  this. 

MR.  BALLEN:   Let's  go  off  the  record. 

[Pause  in  the  proceedings.] 

MR.  BALLEN:   I  will  put  this  on  the  record. 

Since  we  don't  know  where  your  privilege  starts, 
we  are  going  to  ask  the  questions  we  feel  we  have  to  ask. 


IIN£tJm 


nrn 


815 


UNGgSSIFIED 


28 


J    Whenever  you  want  to  assert  the  privilege  that  you  are 

2    claiming,  assert  the  privilege. 

•  THE  WITNESS:   I  just  assert  it  as  attorney-client 

^    privilege;  is  that  right? 

5  MR.  HYLDEN:   I  will  just  instruct  you  not  to 

answer . 

J  MS.  NAUCHTON:   We  want  to  put  the  exact  basis 

_    of  the  privilege  on  the  record.   On  the  record,  we  will  state 
.    that  it  is  not  the  committee's  position  that  we  recognize  the 
privilege,  but  you  may  certainly  assert  the  privilege.  We 
can  go  back  for  a  ruling  on  it. 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON:. 
Q    We  were  at  the  point  —  first  let  me  ask  this  — 
when  you  first  called  Customs  about  Mr.  Kelso,  could  you  give 
us  a  month  and  a  year  of  this  conversation? 

A    1  can't  give  you  a  month  unless  I  have  a  copy  of 
the  letter. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   Let's  go  off  the  record  for  a  moment. 


okay? 

[Pause  in  the  proceedings.] 
MS.  NAUGHTON:   Back  on  the  record. 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q    The  initial  phone  call  again  that  you  made  to 
Customs  in  Colorado,  could  you  give  us  an  approximate  month 
and  year? 


WMSm 


816 


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25 


DNffilSSIHED 


29 


1  A    I  believe  it  may  have  been  August  1986.   You  would 

2  have  to  go  back  and  find  the  letter  and  see  what  the  date  was. 

3  It  could  have  been  somewhere  around  there . 

4  Q    And  do  you  recall  the  first  conversation  you  had 

5  with  Colonel  North  on  this  subject?  Was  that  in  August  of 
1986? 

•J  A    I  believe  so.   It  would  have  been  within  the  next 

a    few  days.   You  can  go  back  and  check  the  records  on  his  entry 
9    log. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  direct  you  or  suggest  that  you 
meet  with  anyone  at  U.S.  Customs  in  Washington,  D.C.? 

A    At  that  initial  meeting,  I  do  not  think  so. 

Q    After  you  spoke  to  Assistant  U.S.  Attorney  Black, 


y.  did  you  then  speak  to  Colonel  North? 


A    I  think  that  I  probably  called  him  up  and  told 
him  that  I  had  talked  with  him. 

Q    Did  you  at  that  time  believe  that  Mr.  Kelso  was  a 
Customs  informant? 

A    I  had  not  made  any  assumptions  one  way  or  the  other 
edjout  Mr,  Kelso  at  that  time. 

Q    At  the  second  conversation  with  Colonel  North 
after  you  spoke  with  Mr.  Black,  did  Colonel  North  then 
suggest  that  you  meet  with  zmyone  from  U.S.  Customs  in 
Washington,  D.C.? 

MR.  HYLDEN:   I  believe  this  was  the  question  that 


mmm 


817 


i/iwmnED 


30 


.    when  you  were  asked  it  last  time  you  said  that  at  this  point 
2    you  had  made  a  connection  in  your  own  mind  with  the  Honey- 
2         Avirgan  suit  and  were  investigating.   If  that  is  so  and  if 
^    that  second  conversation  with  Colonel  North  falls  into  that 

-  time  period,  then  I  instruct  you  not  to  answer  so  there 

e    wouldn't  be  an  argument  of  waiver  of  applicable  privileges. 

-  THE  WITNESS:   The  way  I  would  like  to  do  this, 
_    and  correct  me  if  I  am  wrong,  but  either  at  the  first 

conversation  or  at  the  second  conversation,  to  the  best  of 
my  recollection,  that  I  had  with  Colonel  North,  it  became 
apparent,  or  it  was  considered  that  this  may  have  a  reflection 
on  the  civil  suit  that  has.  been  filed  in  Misuni,  and  therefore, 
that  was  when  the  connection  was  made  and  that  was  when  it  was 
undertaken  as  part  of  the  civil  suit  investigation,  contacting 
a  lawyer. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   That  is  enough.   Don't  answer  that 
question  she  has  just  posed  any  further. 

BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q    This  committee  has  received  testimony  that  you 
met  then  with  the  Assistant  Commissioner  for  Customs, 
Mr.  Hillieua  Rosenblatt.   Is  it  your  testimony  then  that  thirs 
meeting,  your  meeting  with  him,  was  in  connection  with 
investigating  the  civil  private  lawsuit  against  you? 

A    That  was  my  understanding  of  basically  what  that 
meeting  was  about. 


818 


25 


UNfiHtmED 


31 


1  Q    Did  you  tell  Mr.  Rosenblatt  that  that  was  your 

2  purpose  for  being  there? 

3  MR.  HYLDEN:   I  instruct  him  not  to  answer. 

4  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

5  Q    Did  Mr.  Rosenblatt  arrange  for  you  to  receive  any 

6  materials  pursuant,  from  that  visit? 

7  MR.  HYLOEN:   I  instruct  him  not  to  answer.   I  am 

8  going  to  instruct  him  not  to  answer  euiy  questions  within  this 

9  time  period  that  pertains  to  the  privilege . 
10  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

tl        Q    Did  Mr.  Rosenblatt  give  you  any  tape  recordings?  . 

12  MR.  HYLDEN:   I  have  instructed  him  not  to  answer 

13  that  question.   I  will  instruct  him  not  to  amswer  any 

14  questions  about  that  meeting.   You  just  asked  him  another 

15  question  2Q>out  it. 

16  MS.  NAUGHTON:   No,  I  didn't. 

17  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

18  0    Subsequently  to  meeting  with  Mr.  Rosenblatt,  did  you 

19  pick  up  tape  recordings  from  the  Customs  Service  in  Washington, 

20  D.C.? 

21  MR.  HYLDEN:   Objection.   I  instruct  him  not  to 

22  answer . 

23  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

24  0    Subsequent  to  picking  up  tape  recordings,  did  you 
ever  return  them  to  the  Customs  Service? 


Ul1€lWWIf|tU 


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uimsmED 


32 


^  MR.  HYLDEN:   I  instruct  him  not  to  answer 

2  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON 

.        Q    Subsequent  to  the  meeting  with  Mr.  Rosenblatt, 

-  did  you  meet  in  Costa  Rica  with  agents  of  the  Custom  Service? 
5  MR.  HYLDEN:   I  instruct  him  not  to  answer. 
g  Off  the  record 

-  [Discussion  off  the  record.] 
g             MS.  NAUGHTON:   Back  on  the  record. 
Q            Since  the  witness  has  refused  upon  advice  of 

counsel  to  answer  any  further  questions  in  the  Kelso  matter, 
I  have  no  further  questions  and  Mr.  Ballen  may  have  other 
areas  of  inquiry. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   The  record  will  speak  for  itself  as 
to  what  I  have  advised  my  client. 

MR.  BALLEN:   I  have  no  other  questions  on  any 
other  matters,  we  covered  John  Hull  previously.  That  was 
my  major  area  of  inquiry. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   I  have  other  areas. 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q    Do  you  know  Mr.  Spivey? 
A    Yes. 

Q    Could  you  tell  us  where  you  met  him? 
A    In  Washington,  D.C.   I  received  a  phone  call  with 
North,  or  I  was  talking  with  Ollie,  and  he  said,  "There  is  a 
Hollywood  producer  who  is  thinking  about  doing  a  movie  and 


Uimmpn 


820 


wwrare 


33 


'  I  had  given  him  your  name  and  one  other  person's  name, 

2  I  believe  Rich  Miller.   Would  you  talk  with  him?" 

3  Larry  Spivey  came  to  Washington,  D.C.  — 
^        Q    Could  you  give  us  a  tine  frame? 

S  MR.  HYLDEN:   We  have  been  through  this. 

®  THE  WITNESS:   Mr.  Spivey  came  to  Washington  and  I 

7  ended  up  meeting  with  him  on  numerous  occasions.   I  accompanied 

8  him  to  at  least  one  Senator's  office.   I  think  I  may  have 

9  set  up  some  appointments  for  him  with  some  congressional 

10  staff. 

11  He  came  to  my  house  with  his  girlfriend  for  a 

12  party  that  I  was  having. 

13  What  else  would  you  like  to  know? 

14  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

15  Q    When  was  the  last  time  that  you  spoke  to  Mr.  Spivey? 

16  A    Sometime  in  the  late  winter,  maybe  early  spring 

17  of  1985.   Well,  actually,  I  ran  into  him  at  a  —  at  the 

18  Nicaraguan  Refugee  Dinner  in  April  of  1985. 

19  Q    And  that  is  the  last  time  you  recall  speaking 

20  to  him? 

21  A    As  far  as  I  can  remember. 

22  Q    Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  Spivey  had  any 

23  contacts  with  any  agents  of  the  Federal  Bureau  of 

24  Investigation? 

25  A    He  said  that  he  did. 


»"8,S«fflO 


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uiweimo 


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Q    What  did  he  tell  you  eibout  that? 
A    He  said  he  had  met  with  agents  of  the  FBI  in 
Florida  emd  that  the  FBI  had  told  him  that  John  Hull  was 
involved  in  narcotics  trafficking. 

Q    Did  he  give  you  the  name  of  the  agents? 
A    He  may  have,  but  I  have  forgotten. 

Q    Have  you  ever  spoken  to  amy  FBI  agents  stationed  in 
®    Miami,  Florida? 

A    Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q    Did  he  tell  you  how  the  FBI  found  out  this 
information  regarding  the  drug  smuggling? 
A    No. 

Q    What  did  he  tell  you  aUsout  it? 
'*        A    Something  to  the  effect  of  he  knew  that  I  was 
'^    friends  with  John  Hull  euid  I  think  he  said  you  better  beware 
'^    of  Hull.   I  think  he  said  something  like  the  FBI  is  watching 
him  for  drug  trafficking. 

Q    Did  he  mention  whether  or  not  he  had  seen  any  FBI 
reports  of  activities  in  Central  America? 

20  A    I  think  he  may  have  said  that,  yes. 

21  Q    Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  Spivey  communicated 

22  this  information  to  Colonel  North? 

23  A    As  far  as  I  know,  no.   I  don't  know  whether  he  did 

24  or  not.   I  do  remember  that  I  probably  brought  it  up  to 

25  Colonel  North,  because  I  was  concerned. 


wmmm 


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UNtWIED 


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1  Q    Did  you  tell  Colonel  North  about  Mr.  Spivey's 

2  contacts  with  the  FBI? 

3  A    I  may  have.   I  believe  that  I  probably  would  have. 

4  Q    Did  Colonel  North  indicate  to  you  that  he  would 

5  take  any  action  on  this  or  try  to  find  out  more  about  it? 

6  A    If  he  said  £my thing,  he  was  just  trying  to  find 

7  out  if  there  was  any  truth  to  it  or  not  I  think  and  I  am  not 

8  quoting  him  directly,  but  I  think  he  probably  said,  "I  will 

9  try  to  find  out  whether  it  is  accurate." 

10  Q    Did  he  say  how  he  would  find  out? 

11  A     No . 

12  Q    Did  Colonel  Nortli  tell  you  anything  about  any 

13  specific  plans  to  shoot  a  movie  with  Mr.  Spivey  as  producer? 

14  A    I  don't  know  whether  North  did,  but  Spivey 

15  certainly  talked  about  it.   That  is  why  he  was  in  Washington, 

16  he  wanted  to  shoot  a  mini  series  —  not  only  produce  it,  but 

17  be  involved  in  the  actual  ending. 

18  Q    You  mean  the  end  of  the  story  of  the  resistance 

19  in  Nicaragua? 

20  A    Right . 

21  Q    What  was  the  ending  to  be? 

22  A    That  they  would  be  successful. 

23  Q    Was  he  going  to  take  any  action  to  see  that  that 

24  happened? 

25  A    Was  he  going  to  take  any  action  —  he  wanted  to  try 


UimSSIHFD 


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1  and   orchestrate  an  ending. 

2  Q    Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  Spivey  received 

3  any  money  from  the  FBI  at  any  time? 

4  A    You've  got  me. 

5  Q    Do  you  know  if  he  had  any  contacts  with  any 

6  officers  or  assets  of  the  CIA? 

7  A    No.   For  some  reason,  I  think  he  may  have  alluded  to 
6  it,  but  I  never  took  him  seriously. 

9         Q    Did  either  Mr.  Spivey  or  Colonel  North  ever 

10  mention  to  you  any  contact  with  FBI  agents  stationed  in  Los 

11  Angeles? 

12  A    The  only  thing  --  for  some  reason,  I  don't  know 

13  whether  it  was  Los  Angeles  or  where  it  was,  but  for  some 

14  reason,  I  have  in  the  back  of  my  mind,  I  seem  to  recall  that 

15  there  may  have  been  some  mention  that  Ollie  talked  to  someone 

16  about  Spivey  to  find  out  whether  he  was  an  all  right  guy,  if 

17  you  will. 

18  But  I  don't  know  neunes  and  I  don't  really  remember 

19  the  specifics.   It  is  just  a  vague  recollection. 

20  Q    What  did  Colonel  North  tell  you  he  was  told  by 
2t  the  FBI? 

22  MR.  HYLDEN:   He  didn't  say,  I  don't  think,  that  he 

23  knew  Colonel  North  talked  to  the  FBI,  did  you? 

24  THE  WITNESS:   I  said  earlier  I  didn't  think  he  had, 

25  but  I  had  a  vague  recollection  that  he  might  have.   It  would 


scoiiection  that  he  might 

mm0 


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have  been,  I  guess  the  guy  is  air  ffgnW*'l  don't  know.   i 
took  the  lead  from  Ollie  as  to  whether  to  associate  myself 
with  the  guy,  and  told  Ollie  eventually  that  1  thought  he 
was  using  bad  judgment  in  associating  with  him. 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

Q    Why  was  that? 

A    I  didn't  trust  him. 

Q    Why  not? 

A    Can  we  go  off  the  record  for  a  second? 

Q    Why? 

A    I  am  not  going  to  put  this  on  the  record. 
[Discuasion  off  the  record.] 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Admiral  Poindexter 
ever  net  with  Mr.  Spivey? 

A    Z  would  be  highly  surprised.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  Spivey  and  Colonel 
North  ever  met  with  the  producer  David  Holpe? 

A    Z  know  at  some  point  that  David  Wolpe  —  as  a 
■•tter  of  fact,  Z  think  that  there  was  supposed  to  be  a  meet- 
ing sat  up  with  Wolpe  and  Spivey  in  the  White  House  mess  at 
some  point. 

Q    Do  you  know  when  that  was  to  occur? 

A    Maybe  February  or  Jzmuary  1985. 

Q   What  was  the  purpose? 


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A    They  nvay  have  been  discussing  the  possibility  of 
doing  a  film.   Spivey  had  a  variety  of  grand  ideas  and  some  of 
them  seemed  from  a  PR  angle  decent.   Other  ones  seemed  very 
far fete aed. 

Q    If  I  could  take  you  a  little  further  in  time  to 
the  fall  of  1986  when  the  plane  carrying  Hasenfus  crashed, 
do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  Spivey  had  any  contact  with 
Mr.  Hasenfus? 

A    After  the  crash? 

Q    Yes. 

A  All  I  know  is  what  I  read  in  the  paper  emd  that  was 
that  he  was  having  conversations  about  possibly  producing  his 
movie . 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  Mr.  Spivey  bought  up  the 
rights  to  Mr.  Hasenfus'  story? 

A    You  will  have  to  ask  him.   I  only  know  what  I  read 
in  the  paper. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  contacts  with  any  FBI  agents 
that  are  stationed  in  Los  Angeles? 

A    Not  that  I  know  of • 

MR.  BALLEN:   Let  me  interrupt  for  a  second.   You 
asked  for  the  letter.   I  wanted  to  give  you  a  copy  of  that. 

MR.  LEON:   Can  we  have  that  admitted  as  an  exhibit? 
MR.  BALLEN:   All  right,  we  will  have  it  put  in  as 
Exhibit  1. 


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21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


(Owen  Exhibit  No.  1  was  marked  for  identification.] 
MR.  LEON:   Is  this  your  handwriting  at  the  top? 
THE  WITNESS:   No,  it  is  John  Hull's.   if  we  can 
go  back  on  this  —  it  will  clarify  why  he  was  concerned  and 
the  whole  lawsuit  came  into  being,  is  because  there  was  a 


he  has  been  associated  with  the  lawsuit 
and  that  rang  bells,  too. 

That  may  clarify  why  there  was  a  trigger. 
BY  MR.  BALLEN: 
Q    This  committee  Exhibit  No.  1  is  a  copy  of  the 
letter  that  you  turned  over  to  us  previously? 
A    Right. 

Q    And  the  writing  on  the  top  is  John  Hull's? 
A    Right . 

Q    So  this  was  a  letter  from  John  Hull  to  you  in 
approximately  August  1986? 

A    Yes.   I  an  not  sure  whether  this  writing  was  on  the 
original  letter  or  not  or  1  got  a  copy  of  the  letter  and  he 
put  that  on.   I  don't  remember. 

MR.  LEON:   How  about  the  writing  on  the  last  page? 
THE  WITNESS:   I  believe  that  may  have  been  on  the 
letter,  so  maybe  the  original  writing  was  on  the  letter,  too. 
MR.  LEON:   Do  you  remember  who  wrote  that? 
THE  WITNESS:   That  is  Hull. 


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MR.  BALLEN:   At  the  top  of  the  first  page  it  refers 
to  other  documents. 

Do  you  recall  what  those  documents  were? 
THE  WITNESS:   I  think  that  they  were  some  of  the 
depositions  or  quasi-depositions  that  had  been  taken  regardinc 
the  Honey-Avirgan  lawsuit. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   Those  documents  have  also  been  turned 
over  to  the  committee. 

MR.  LEON:   Do  you  know  why  he  wanted  those 
documents  turned  over  to  Senator  Rudman  as  indicated  in  his 
handwriting  at  the  top  of  the  letter? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  believe  he  wanted  it  turned  over 
to  the  Senate  Ethics  Committee  because  I  believe  in  one  of  the 
documents  one  of  the  people  who  were  in  jail  said  they  had  a 
conversation  with  a  representative  of  Senator  Kerry's  office, 
and  Senator  Kerry's  office  had  promised  them  money  and  a  green 
card  if  they  would  come  to  the  United  States  and  testify. 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q    Did  you  speak  to  Mr.  Hull  about  this  letter? 
A    Yes. 

Q    Did  Mr.  Hull  tell  you  anything  about  Tomas 
Castillo's  involvement 


MR.  HYLDEN:   His  involvement  with  what? 


wmssm 


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BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q    With  this  matter? 
A    No. 
Q     None . 

A    Not  when  I  talked  to  him. 

Q    Did  he  specifically  state  to  you  that  he  wasn't 
involved? 

A    It  didn't  come  up. 

Q    The  very  last  page,  the  handwriting  that  says 
"Today  some  locals  that  should  know  told  me"  —  and  then  I 
can't  read  that^^^^^^^^Hdid  plan  to  have  the  gringo  shot 
here. " 

MR.  HYLDEN:   It  is  not  end  quote.   There  is  more 
language  there  that  is  deleted  or  not  contained  on  the  copy 
that  we  have  been  given. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  think  they  have  it  either. 
MR.  HYLDEN:   Maybe  you  don't.   There  is  further 
printing. 

MR.  BALLEN:   Here  is  the  original  and  I  will  show 
it  to  you. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   It  is  dash.   It  looks  like  either  a 
B  or  13U  —  "your  friend  the  old"  and  then  that  can't  be 
read. 

If  you  want  to  read  into  the  record  your  version, 
that  is  all  right. 


«I«»D 


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UNHmED 


42 


MR.  HYLDEN:   It  is  not  a  question  of  anybody's 
version;  it  is  a  question  of  what  the  document  says. 

THE  WITNESS:   Are  you  asking  me  what  did  he  mean 
by  that? 

BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Who  was  the  gringo? 
The  gringo  was  Kelso. 

you  were  told,  was| 
I  believe  he  is  eithei^^ 

don't  know  which. 
Q    Moving  on,  I  would  like  to  ask  you  about  some 
incidents  that  occurred  — 

MR.  LEON:   Let  me  just  ask  a  question  on  this 
letter  before  you  move  on. 

Did  you  get  the  name  of  the  person  from  Senator 
Kerry's  office  that  supposedly  wrote  this? 
THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  think  so. 
MR.  LEON:   Do  you  know  if  it  was  brought  to 
Senator  Rudman's  attention? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  remember.   I  believe  the 
stuff  was  sent  —  actually,  I  don't  know. 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q    Do  you  know  if  it  was  ever  brought  to  the  attention 
of  the  U.S.  Attorney  in  Miami  as  stated  in  the  handwriting? 


I   don't   know. 


IISJOTP) 


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mugm 


43 


1  MR.  HYLDEN:   For  the  record,  the  handwriting  does 

2  not  state  that  it  was  brought  to  the  U.S.  Attorney's 

3  attention. 

4  MS.  NAUGHTON:   Moving  on  to  the  time  period 

5  around,  let's  say,  January  of  1986  and  the  spring  of  1986, 

6  did  you  become  aware  of  an  investigation  being  conducted  by 

7  the  U.S.  Attorney's  Office  out  of  Miami  regarding  targets 

V 

8  such  as  Rene  Cori»o  and  others  who  may  have  been  involved  m 

9  activities  in  Central  America? 

10  THE  WITNESS:   At  some  point  I  did.   I  don't  remember 

11  the  time  frame,  but  I  did  become  aware  of  an  investigation. 

12  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

13  Q    Can  you  tell  me  how  you  became  aware  of  an 

14  investigation? 

15  A    I  think  it  was  through  the  newspaper.   I  am  not 

16  sure. 

17  No,  let  me  back  track.   You  have  a  memo  and  1 

18  testified  to  the  fact  that  at  one  point  when  he  was  in  Costa 

19  Rica ,  I  was  there  at  the  same  time  as  representatives  of  the 

20  U.S.  Attorney's  Office  and  the  FBI  who  were  involved  in  the 

21  investigation. 

22  Q    We  have  received  testimony  that  that  was  March  30 

23  through  April  4.   Would  that  comport  with  your  recollection? 

24  A    Without  being  able  to  look  at  my  notes,  I  would 

25  imagine  it  is. 


^mmm 


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""^  44 


uNeassnEO 


'         Q    When  the  Assistant  U.S.  Attorney  and  FBI  agents  were 

2  in  Costa  Rica,  was  that  the  first  you  had  ever  heard  of  their 

3  investigation? 
A    1  can't  say  specifically  yes  or  no.   i  think  so, 

5    but  I  don't  know. 


Q    From  whom  did  you  hear  about  the  investigation? 
MR.  HYLDEN:   In  Costa  Rica  at  this  point  ~ 
THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  remember.   It  may  have  been 
the  first  time  when  I  was  in  Costa  Rica.   I  may  have  heard 
'0    about  it  before. 
"  BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

'2        Q    I  asked  from  whom. 
'3        A    I  can't  remember  who  it  was  before  and  when  I  was 

in  Costa  Rica,  I  believe  that  it  was  from  Tomas  Castillo. 
'*        Q    What  if  anything  did  Mr.  Castillo  tell  you  about 
t6    the  investigation? 
'^        A    I  am  going  to  throw  something  in  here  —  can  we  go 

18  off  the  record  for  a  second? 

19  [Discussion  off  the  record.] 

20  THE  WITNESS:   I  will  state  that  I  have  read 
Mr.  Castillo's  testimony  and  he  says  that  he  never  talked  to 

22  me  about  it.   There  obviously  is  a  difference  of  opinion. 

23  MR.  LEON:   Difference  of  opinion  or  recollection? 

24  THE  WITNESS:   Difference  of  recollection.   As  I 

25  testified,  I  remember  to  the  best  of  my  recollection  that  he 


ILASSIFJ 

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was  the  one  who  talked  to  roe  about  it. 

MS.  NAUGHTON:   Do  you  recall  preparing  a  memo  to 
Colonel  North  mentioning  this? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  had  mentioned  that  I  did  prepare  a 
memo  that  you  have  a  copy  of. 
BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 

Q    Was  that  based  on  information  received  from 
Mr.  Castillo? 

A    To  the  best  of  my  recollection,  also  from 
conversations  with  John  Hull,  and  I  can't  remember,  but  I  may 
have  had  conversations  with  the  ambassador  about  it. 

Q    What  did  the  ambassador  tell  you  2tbout  it. 
Ambassador  Tambs? 

A    I  would  have  to  read  over  my  testimony  to  see  what  I 
said.   It  has  been  a  long  time  since  then.   I  will  try  to 
recollect  it  as  best  I  can. 

If  I  remember  correctly,  we  did  talk  about  it,  and 
my  recollection  is  that  I  think  %<•  did.   He  just  said  that 
they  were  in  here  <uid  they  were  asking  questions  about  the 
whole  thing. 

Z  can't  remember  whether  at  the  time  Castillo 
was  in  that  meeting  or  not,  but  I  believe  someone  talked  eibout 
that  the  FBI  had  a  chart,  it  had  Ollie  North's  name  at  the 
top  and  my  name  and  then  John  Hull's  name  amd  then  it  had  a 
number  of  Nicaraguans'  names.   It  said  they  were  doing  an 


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investigation,  a  broad-based,  broad-sweeping  investigation 
about  the  Southern  Front. 

Q    Was  it  your  understanding  that  this  chart  was  a 
chart  of  possible  targets  of  the  investigation? 

A    It  was  never  discussed  as  to  targets. 

Q    When  Ambassador  Tambs  told  you  about  the  chart, 
what  did  he  tell  you? 

A    I  remember  the  ambassador  obviously  talked 
to  me  about  it  because  he  said  why  don't  I  getl 


one  of  the  —  I  think  it  was  a  representative  of  the  U.S. 
Attorney's  Office  —  said  what  is  that,  being  that  they  were 
not  necessarily  familiar  with  how  an  embassy  worked. 

So  I  —  as  we  talked,  I  remember  his  expression, 
I  remember  that.   I  must  have  talked  to  Ambassador  Tambs 
about  it. 

Q    Aside  from  sending  the  memo  to  Colonel  North,  did 
you  actually  discuss  this  investigation  with  Colonel  North? 

A    Other  than  —  I  probably  discussed  the  memo  after  I 
gave  it  to  him.   Among  other  things,  I  said  that  if  I  was 
approached  by  the  FBI,  I  would  not  talk.   I  think  I  said  it 
may  be  time  for  me  to  be  bowing  out  at  some  point. 

Q    Did  you  actually  tell  him  that  either  face  to 
face  or  in  telephonic  conversation? 

A    I  can't  remembejT.^  Aie^utf— Aiiyfcalked  about  the 


mms 


834 


19 
20 
2i 
22 


24 

25 


mmsfiiw 


47 


1  memos  and  I  probeibly  would  have  gone  over  briefly  what  I 

2  wrote . 

3  Q    Did  Colonel  North  indicate  he  would  follow  up  and 

4  try  to  monitor  the  investigation? 
A    No. 

g        Q    Did  he  tell  you  what  became  of  the  investigation? 
7        A    No. 

g        Q    After  that  visit  by  the  Assistant  U.S.  Attorney 
g    and  FBI  agents  in  early  April  of  1986,  did  you  hear  anything 
fQ    more  about  the  investigation  from  any  source? 

A    You  mean  until  today? 
12  MR.  HYLDEN:   Other  than  in  the  newspaper? 

,3  MS.  NAUGHTON:   Up  until  November  1986. 

^4  MR.  HYLDEN:   Excluding  newspapers? 

BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q    Excluding  public  media. 
A    Not  to  the  best  of  my  recollection.   I  don't  think 


fg    that  I  talked  with  North  again  ctbout  it.   I  don't  think  —  I 


want  to  emphasize  "think"  because  I  can't  remember.   I  don't 
think  so.   I  may  have  talked  with  some  of  the  other  people 
who  were  potentially  involved.   I  knew  that  it  was  involving 
the  one  flight  out  of  Fort  Lauderdale  that  I  have  testified 


2,    to,  but  nothing  jumps  to  my  mind. 


Q    Do  you  know  how  many  trips  the  Assistant  U.S. 
Attorney  and  the  FBI  agents  took  to  Costa  Rica? 


mmm 


835 


mmnB 


A    I  have  no  idea. 
2        Q    Are  you  just  aware  of  the  one? 

2        A    There  may  have  been  another.   In  the  back  of  my 
.    mind,  maybe  I  think  there  is  another,  but  I  don't  remember 
_    specifically. 

g  Q  Did  you  ever  meet  either  with  the  Assistant  U.S. 
_  Attorney  or  either  of  the  FBI  agents  who  were  accompanying 
the  Assistant  U.S.  Attorney? 

A    I  was  never  introduced  and  to  the  best  of  my 
recollection  never  met  them. 

Q    Did  you  discuss  the  investigation  with  Mr.  Hull? 
A    I  think  that  yes,  we  probably  talked  about  it. 
Q    What  did  he  tell  you  about  the  investigation? 
A    He  just  said  that  he  was  approached  and  —  as  a 
matter  of  fact,  he  and  I  were  coming  back  to  the  States 
together,  I  think,  and  there  was  some  thought  that  we  may 
end  up  bumping  into  each  other  or  be  on  the  same  plane  — 
he  was  going  to  come  back.   I  didn't  want  to  run  into  him. 

Q    Did  Mr.  Hull  tell  you  whether  or  not  he  had  agreed 
to  be  interviewed  by  the  FBI  agents? 

A    I  can't  remember.   I  know  that  they  called  him  up 
to  talk  to  him  and  at  some  point  he  said  I  think  he  had  agreed, 
and  I  think  I  probably  may  have  said,  "John,  you  don't  have  to 
talk  to  them  if  you  don't  want  to."   I  said,  "You  have  to  make 
up  your  own  mind."   I  know  he  also  called  someone  at  the 


UNCIASSP^!? 


836 


VIM14MED 


49 


embassy.   I  said,  "I  imagine  if  you  talk  to  them,  you  better 
have  a  lawyer. " 

Q    Do  you  know  with  whom  he  spoke  at  the  embassy? 

A    I  believe  someone  in  the  counsel's  office. 

Q    Was  it  Mr.  Petulla? 

A    That  would  probably  be  the  person. 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  Hull  spoke  to 
Colonel  North  during  that  time  period? 

A    Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  he  spoke  to  anyone  at  the 
NSC  staff  during  that  period? 

A  I  would  doubt  it.  He  didn't  know  anyone  other  than 
North  and  to  the  best  of  my  recollection,  I  think  he  has  only 
met  North  three  times. 

I  can't  see  John  Hull  calling  up  Ollie  North  on 
the  phone  and  talking  to  him. 

Q    Do  you  know  how  many  times  Mr.  Hull  met  with 
Ambassador  Tambs? 

A    I  don't  believe  he  ever  met  him. 

Q    Ever? 

A    That  is  right. 

Q    Did  you  ever  discuss  it  with  Mr.  Hull? 

A    He  wrote  a  letter  to  Ambassador  Tambs  when  he  first 
arrived  and  eventually  got  a  letter  saying,  "John,  I  would 
love  to  meet  you,  but  it  probably  is  not  a  good  idea." 


UdOASSKIED 


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mmfiB 


50 


Q  Did   the   anbassador  explain  why? 

A         John  was  a   hot   property.      He   is  known,   well  known 
in  Costa   Rica  and   it   had  obviously  come  out   that   he  may  have 
been   a   CIA  asset,    people   said  that   he  was   a   CIA  agent,    so 
they   thought   it    inappropriate. 

MR.    LEON:      You  mean  controversial? 

THE  WITNESS:      Yes;    controversial.      Thank   you. 

BY   MS.    NAUGHTON: 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  ever  discuss  with  you  Executive 
Assistant  Director  of  the  FBI  Buck  Revell? 

A    No.   I  certainly  knew  that  he  knew  him. 

Q    How  did  you  know  that? 

A    It  may  have  come  up  in  a  conversation  or  at  one 
time  it  may  have  been  that  —  there  was  a  discussion  about 
his  working  group  that  would  meet  there.   I  think  on  one 
occasion  we  talked  about  terrorism,  talked  about  the  working 
group  that  would  meet  on  terrorism  and  Buck  Revell  was  part 
of  that  group. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  tell  you  he  received  information 
from  Mr.  Revell  involving  ongoing  criminal  investigations? 

A    Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q    Were  you  aware  of  any  FBI  information  regarding  a 
possible  assassination  plot  by  Mr.  Terrell  against  Ambassador 
Tambs  or  the  President? 

A    I  did  hear  about  that.   That  was  through  Glenn 


mma 


838 


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iffmmo 


51 


Robinette .   1  know  that  Glenn  had  conversations  with  the 
FBI  about  it. 

Q    Would  that  have  been  some  time  in  the  spring  or 
summer  of  1986? 

A    That  sounds  right.   I  don't  remember. 

Q    What  did  Mr.  Robinette  tell  you  about  that? 

A    He  had  been  talking  with  Mr.  Terrell  regarding  — 
a  lot  of  it  was  regarding  the  —  let  me  back  up.   He  was 
trying  to  gain  Mr.  Terrell's  confidence.   He  had  several 
conversations  and  meetings  with  Mr.  Terrell,  and  at  one  point 
he  said  he  had  found  out  some  information,  I  think  he  had  gone 
down  and  talked  with  Ollie  and  Ollie  had  pvit  him  in  touch  with 
the  FBI,  but  conversations  with  Terrell  or  something  along 
those  lines. 

Q    Did  Mr.  Robinette  tell  you  he  had  met  with  the  FBI? 

A    Yes. 

Q    What  did  he  tell  you  about  that? 

A    That  he  had  had  conversations  with  Jack  Terrell. 

Q    Did  he  mention  working  with  the  FBI  in  investigating 
Mr.  Terrell's  activities? 

A    He  was  very  worried  about  working  with  the  FBI. 
He  was  concerned  that  someone  would  turn  around  and  say  that 
Ollie  had  his  own  plumbers  unit  and  he  wanted  to  be  sure  that 
everything  was  documented  that  he  was  not  working  for  North. 

I  think  that  on  one  occasion  the  FBI  was  going  to 
follow  him  to  a  meel 


DliMlED 


839 


UI^^S^ED 


52 


.        Q    Do  you  know  what  came  of  that  cooperation  between 

2  Mr.  Robinette  and  the  FBI? 

3  A    I  don't  think  it  lasted  very  long. 
^        Q    Do  you  know  why  not? 

A     No. 
g        Q    When  did  you  first  meet  Mr.  Robinette? 
y        A    The  summer  of  1986. 

g        Q    Were  you  introduced  by  Colonel  North? 
A    No. 

Q    How  did  you  meet  him? 

A    I  think  it  may  have  been  through  Secord.   I  am  not 
sure.   I  don't  think  anyone  was  there  at  our  initial  meeting, 
that  either  I  was  asked  to  call  him  or  he  called  me  or  some- 
thing like  that.   And  I  think  I  remember  eventually  asking 
Ollie  about  Mr.  Robinette,  and  he  said,  "Don't  worry.   He  is  a 


.g    good  guy. " 

Most  of  my  dealings  with  Mr.  Robinette  were  with 


regard  to  the  lawsuit. 

Q    Were  you  aware  of  Mr.  Robinette 's  involvement  in 
erecting  the  security  fence  for  Colonel  North? 

A    At  some  point  I  became  aware  of  that,  yes. 

Q    What  did  you  become  aware  of? 

A    I  knew  that  he  was  trying  to  help  Ollie  and  Ollie 's 
wife.   Basically  he  was  spending  more  time  with  Ollie 's  wife 
trying  to  reassure  her.   There  was  concern  about  a  possible 


UdCUSSIEIED 


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UNtttSSIflED 


53 


attack  on  the  family,  and  that  was  basically  it. 

Q    Did  you  learn  this  from  Mr.  Robinette  or  from 
Colonel  North  or  from  another  source? 

A    No,  it  was  basically  from  Mr.  Robinette.   I  don't 
think  I  ever  got  into  specifics  with  Colonel  North  about 
Mr.  Robinette  other  than  asking  him  whether  he  was  someone 
that  I  could  trust  and  deal  with,  and  he  said  yes. 

There  may  have  been  occasions  where  we  talked  about 
him,  but  in  generalities. 

Q    Did  Mr.  Robinette  tell  you  who  was  paying  for  the 
fence? 

A    No,  I  don't  think  so,  unless  he  said  Secord  was, 
but  I  don't  remember. 

Q    If  we  can  go  back  to  the  Miami  Neutrality  Act 
investigation  in  the  spring  of  1986,  when  you  wrote  the  memo 
to  Colonel  North,  I  believe  it  was  April  7th,  describing  the 
visit  of  the  Assistant  U.S.  Attorney  and  the  FBI  agents, 
what  was  your  purpose  in  writing  to  Colonel  North  about  that 
event? 

A    To  keep  him  informed. 

Q    Why  did  you  think  he  should  be  informed  of  the 
investigation? 

A    When  his  name  was  brought  up  linking  my  name  and 
saying  that  —  I  think  at  that  point  they  may  have  been  saying 
that  I  was  the  one  taking  $10,000  a  month  from  Colonel  North 


mmm 


841 


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1» 
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VMmflED 


54 


,    down  to  John  Hull,  that  was  not  true  and  that  was  something 

2  he  should  be  aware  of. 

3  Q    Did  he  indicate  to  you  that  any  steps  would  be 
taken  by  anyone  to  see  that  the  investigation  did  not  go  any 


5    further? 


A    None  whatsoever. 

Q    Did  anyone  at  the  U.S.  Embassy  in  Costa  Rica 


g   mention  that  fact? 


A    None  whatsoever. 

MR.  LEON:   Would  that  have  been  consistent  with  his 
personality  as  you  knew  it? 

THE  WITNESS:   Yes. 

MR.  HYLDEN:   Would  what  have  been  consistent? 

THE  WITNESS:   His  not  saying  that  something  was 
going  to  be  done . 

MR.  LEON:   In  other  words,  from  your  experience  in 
dealing  with  Colonel  North,  did  you  have  reason  to  think  that 
he  would  try  to  interfere  with  a  government  investigation  into 
a  matter? 

THE  WITNESS:   No. 

BY  MS.  NAUGHTON: 
Q    i«iat  if  anything  do  you  know  about  Colonel  North's 
calls  to  Customs  and  the  FBI  after  the  Hasenfus  plane  went 

down? 

A    I  don't  think  I  know  anything  about  calls  he  made. 


mmm 


842 


17 


mmmm 


55 


1  I  didn't  have  a  lot  of  contact  with  Ollie  at  that  time,  and  — 

2  I  am  trying  to  think.   Certainly  not  with  the  FBI  and  I  don't 

3  know  whether  he  may  have  come  up  with  a  conversation  with 

4  Customs  or  not. 

5  Q    Do  you  know  anything  eOsout  a  DC-6  that  was  supposedly 

6  loaded  with  narcotics  bound  from  the  United  States  for  Central 

7  America  and  its  being  seized  by  Customs  or  the  DEA? 
0  MR.  HYLDEN:   Do  you  have  a  date? 
9  BY  MS.  NAUGHTONi 

10  Q     1985. 

11  A     No , 

12  Q    Do  you  know  of  any  drug-related  cases  in  which 

13  either  yourself  or  Colonel  North  cooperated  with  either  the 

14  DEA  or  Customs? 

15  A    At  one  time  he  and  I  had  lunch  and  he  talked  about 
]g  a  bust  that  took  place  that  he  was  involved  in.   It  may  have 


been  the  ^■■^^H^B.  --  he  was  involved  in  some  capacity 
lg    with  that  regarding  the  Sandinistas  and  ^H^B's  involvement 
ig    with  them  and  there  may  have  been  another  one. 
20         Q    What  did  Colonel  North  tell  you  about  his 
2  J    involvement? 

22         A    I  don't  know  whether  he  said  what  his  involvement 
22         was,  he  just  talked  edjout  the  case 

Q    What  did  he  tell  you  about  the  case? 

A    All  I  can  remember  is  that  there  was  a  van,  the 


iimAiL^En 


843 


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56 

stuff  came  in,  if  I  remember  correctly  there  was  a  house  trail- 
er or  van  being  driven  that  had  a  flat  tire.   There  was  a 
screwup  somewhere  along  the  line  so  they  ended  up  making  the 
bust  before  they  had  planned  on  doing  it. 

I  forget  what  his  involvement  was  and  it  is  all 
very  faded,  but  there  was  a  conversation  like  that. 

Q    Did  he  mention  any  photographs  being  taken  as  the 
van  was  being  loaded? 

A    He  may  have.   I  don't  remember. 

Q    Did  you  ever  see  any  such  photographs? 

A     No.  ^^^^^^^^^ 

Q  I  want  to  ask  about^H~^^^^^^^^^^When  did 

you  learn   about^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B 

Was   it^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|upposedly 
the   potential  coup  attempt  and  is  he^^^^^^^^E* 

Q     ^^^^^^^|yes- 

A    I  think  I  first  learned  about  it  from  Chris  Arcos. 

Q    Who  is? 

A    Presently  he  is  at  the  White  House  in  Public 
Liaison  for  Central  America.   At  the  time  he  was  at  NHAO  as 
Deputy  Director. 

Q    What  did  he  tell  you  about 

A    He  just  talked  about  the  present  investigation  and 
that  it  was  going  on  in  Miami  regarding  the  coup  attempt  or 
an  assassination  --  I  really  was  rtever  sure  about  it.   I  also 


iiNri&.^:£ii;iEJi 


844 


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mmm 


57 


heard  about   it   from  other   people. 

Q  From  whom? 

A    Colonel  Nester  Peno  and  at  one  point  Ollie  and  I 
may  have  had  a  passing  conversation  about  it. 

Q What  did  Colonel  North  tell  you  about 


A    I  think  his  comments  were  something  to  the  effect 
that  he  was  an  old  man  who  was  getting  used  and  he  felt  that 
he  was  set  up  or  he  was  --  he  was  sort  of  a  pawn. 

Q    A  pawn  of  whose?   Who  was  controlling  him? 

A    He  didn't  really  say.   I  don't  remember. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  ever  tell  you  what  it  was  that 
Idid  to  assist  the  United  States  cause! 

A    No.   He  didn't  --  not  that  I  remember. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  ever  mention  to  you  wanting  to 
go  to  bat  for^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hafter  he  had  been  convicted 
of  plotting  the  assassination? 

A    He  may  have.   I  don't  remember.   I  mean  I  think 
he  felt  that  it  was  an  injustice  that  he  was  convicted,  he 
felt  it  was  wrong  that  he  was  convicted. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  express  a  concern  that 
lad  been  set  up  by  someone? 

A  If  I  remember  correctly,  and  I  don't  know  whether 
this  comes  from  Colonel  North,^^^^^^^^^Hwas  in  one  or  two 
meetings  and  a  1 1^^^^^^^^^^ a i d  was  huh,  huh,  huh.   He  didn' 


TBHk 


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mmfiii 


58 


have  a  lot  to  say  in  the  meeting.   But  he  felt  —  especially 
when  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 
had  written  a  letter  asking  that^^^^^^^^^Bse  granted  a  -- 
I  don't  know  whether  he  was  pardoned  or  whatever. 

Q    Did  you  see  the  letter? 

A     No. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  tell  you  about  it? 

A    I  don't  think  it  was  he  who  told  me  about  it. 
I  think  it  was  someone  else. 

Q    Do  you  recall  who? 

A    I  may  have  read  about  it  in  the  papers  or  it  may 
have  been  Arcos  or  Peno. 

Q    Do  you  know  what  was  done  to  respond  to  the 


A    I  think  there  was  a  screwup  and  the  letter  was  mis- 
placed and  never  got  where  it  was  supposed  to  go. 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  Colonel  North  took  any  steps 
aftei^^^^^^^^^^was  convicted  to  get  him  any  sort  of  leniency 

A    I  don't  know.   I  don't  know  whether  the  letter 
came  before  or  after. 

Q    Had  you  ever  met  with| 

A    No. 

Q    Did  you  ever  communicate  with  him  in  any  way? 

A     No. 

Q    Do  you  know  what  he  is  doing  now? 


UNQMP 


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25 


mmm 


59 


(  A  No. 

2  Q    One  other  area.   There  is  a  man  who  went  by  the 

3  I  name  of  Al  Masioudi  whose  real  name  was  Zadeh  who  claimed  to 

4  be  a  Saudi  prince  who  was  going  to  donate  money  to  the 

5  contras. 

g  Did  you  ever  meet  this  person? 

I 
7         A    No.   The  only  thing  I  know  about  him  is  what  I 

3  heard  in  testimony  or  what  I  heard  during  the  hearings. 

9  r        Q    Were  you  aware  that  Colonel  North  was  working  with 

fQ  two  DBA  agents  named^^^^Hknd^^^^^^Hto  try  to  locate  the 

)f  hostages? 

A    No. 
^3        Q    You  never  met  either  gentleman^ 
,4         A    No. 
^5  MS.  NAUGHTON:   Those  are  all  the  questions  I  have. 

jg  MR.  BERMINGHAM:   I  want  to  cover  two  areas.   One 

17 


involves  the  involvement  of  anti-Castro  Cubans  in  Costa  Rica, 


Renet  Corko. 

BY  MR.  BERMINGHAM: 

Q    Did  you  ever  have  contact  with  Renef  Cor*o? 

A    I  never  met  him. 

Q    Did  you  hear  from  Hull  or  Castillo  anything 
about  this  Cuban  group? 

A     Yes. 

Q    Could  you  tell  us  what  you  found  out  about  them? 


llNGUli^lFe 


847 


UWMSWIED 


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A    There  was  a  concern  that  Rene*  Corfco  was  a  maverick 
He  had  become  very  close  ^°^^^^^^^^^B  There  was  some 
concern  that  he  was  involved  in  narcotics  trafficking. 

There  was  a  move  to  get  him  disassociated  from 

He  also  was  involved  in  bringing  a  couple  of 
fli3ht^-^thi^i^inl985  —  bring  a  couple  of  flights  from 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hthat     the  infamous  plane  that  Hull 
and  I  and  two  others  flew  up  and  met  and  they  were  landing  on 
the  wrong  airfield. 

He  was  involved  in  raising  —  I  think  he  raised  some 
money  in  Miami  to  help  with  the  Southern  Front. 
Q    Did  he  have  a  group  of  men] 

A    He  had  some  Nicaraguans  and  there  may  have  been 
one  or  two  Cubans  with  him.   He  had  a  camp. 
Q    Was  he  supported  by  John  Hull? 
A    I  don't  think  so.   I  think  John  certainly  knew 
about  him,  but  felt  among  others  that  he  was  trouble. 
Q    Was  this  a  C-47  7 

A    No.   This  is  the  Islander.   I  believe  it  was  an 
Islander  that  came  in. 

Q    Do  you  know  if  he  was  in  contact  with  the  CIA 


A    Tomas  Castillo  was  very  concerned  about  Cor^o  as 
well.   He  was  never  to  my  knowledge  involved  with  Castillo. 
We  were  trying  to  find  ways  to  get^^^^^^^^^^Hto  get  rid  o: 


IINCUSSIf, 


■I^ 


848 


\immia 


61 


\         him,  send  him  back  to  Miami. 

2  Q    What  was  the  attitude  of  Colonel  North  with  regard 

3  to  this  Cuban  group  or  any  group  that  was  --  i  assume  it  was 

4  not  under  his  control,  he  had  no  control  over  this  Cuban 

5  group,  right? 

6  A    North? 

7  Q    Yes. 

8  A    He  had  no  control  over  any  group  that  I  know  of. 

9  I  occasionally  mentioned  Ren^  in  the  memos.   It  plainly 

10    mentioned  that  he  was  someone  that  probably  —  that  should  be 
thrown  out ^^^^^^^^^^^H  that  it  was  bad  for  the  whole 

12  operation.  , 

13  Q    That  was  your  opinion? 

14  A    That  was  the  opinion  of  others  as  well. 

15  Q    What  was  North's  attitude? 

16  A    He  had  other  things  to  worry  about.   It  probably 

17  went  in  one  ear  and  out  the  other. 

ig        Q    Did  he  take  any  interest  that  this  man  was 

19  allegedly  involved  in  drug  trafficking? 

20  A    Anytime  that  I  brought  up  drug  trafficking, 
I  think  he  showed  a  concern  of  some  type,  and  oftentimes  he 
would  take  notes.   What  happened  after  that,  I  don't  really 
know. 

Q    He  never  indicated  that  he  reported  this  information 
to  DEA? 


wmm 


849 


UNNJWIED 


62 

A    I  just  assume  that  he  did.   I  think  at  one  time  he 
did  say  that  he  talked  to  his  friend  at  DEA.   Oasgs  was  a 
concern  because  of  what  we  talked  about  earlier  with  Hull, 
because  of  the  poor  reflection  it  would  have  on  the 
resistance . 

My  notes  or  my  memos  to  him  talked  about  narcotics 
and  he  was  concerned  about  it,  again  because  of  the  image 
problem  and  because  it  did  damage. 

Q    In  your  contacts  with  John  Hull  and  with  contra 
leaders,  including  Calero,  what  was  their  attitude  about 
these  stories  about  drug  trafficking? 

A    When  I  talked  to  Calero  about  it,  he  was  concerned. 
He  thought  it  was  bad  for  the  image,  bad  for  the  program. 
Hull  was  constantly  being  targetted,  certainly  in  the  Honey 


1 
2 
3 

4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 

14 

and  Avirgan  suit  that  he  was  involved  in  narcotics  trafficking 
15  • 

and  Rene*  Cor%o  and  others  were  involved. 
16 

17 

16 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


As  I  stated  earlier  in  the  four  years  that  I  have 
known  John  Hull,  I  would  find  it  hard  to  believe  that  he  was 
or  is  involved  in  narcotics. 

Q    Did  you  meet  with  Eden  Pastora? 

A    On  four  or  five  occasions. 

Q    Did  you  know  Carol  Prado? 

A    Yes.   In  one  of  my  memos,  I  said  I  was  concerned 
that  he  was  involved  in  drug  trafficking  out  of  Panama. 

Q    Marcos  Aguado? 


mism 


850 


I 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 

e 

9 

to 

II 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


mmms 


63 


He  was  Pastora's  pilot.   There  was  concern  about 


him. 


Afterl 


April  1984, 


what  happened  to  Pastora's  plames  and  equipment? 

up 
A    A  couple  of  them  ended^going  /t|t  eventually  to  the 

FDN.   He  had  one  or  two  —  I  think  there  was  one  that  crashed 

on  the  Pacific  Coast,  another  was  flown  into  a  mountain  taking 

off^^^^^^^^^^^^Hwith  one        former 

Q  Do  you  know  of  any  support  that  Pastora  and  his 
group  was  receiving  from  the  United  States  Government  via 
CIA  or  North  or  Hulll 

A    No.   There  was  a  conscientious  decision  not  to 
support  Eden  Pastora. 

Q    Have  you  heard  of  Gerardo  Duran? 

A    I  think  he  may  have  been  involved  in  narcotics 
trafficking,  but  I  don't  know  where  that  comes  from.   I  may 
be  slandering  the  man. 

Q    What  about] 

A    I  have  heard  the  neune.   And  I  right  now  can't 
remember  in  what  context. 

Q    He  is  a  Cuban-American  from  Miami  —  does 
that  refresh  your  recollection? 

A    I  don't  know  whether  it  was! 
there  is  another  name,  and  I  don't  know  whether  it  is  the  same 
that  was  involved  in  the  Cuban  movement  against  Castro  and 


UNCLASHED 


851 


UNOMFIED 


64 


also    spent    some   time^^^^^^^^^^f  but    I  don't   know  whether 
it    is   the   Seune  man.      I  csm't   remember  right   now. 

Q    What  about  Carlos  Coronel? 

A    He  is  a  Nicaraguan  who  was  a  Sandinista.   He 
came  over  to  work  with  Pastora  at  one  time  and  he  recently 
went  back  to  Nicar; 


Q    Was  he  utilized  by  North's  network? 

A    Not  at  all. 

Q    He  received  no  funds  as  far  as  you  know? 

A    None . 

Q    Are  you  familiar  with  the  brothers  Octaviano 
Cesar  —  Octaviano  Cesar  and  Alfredo  Cesar? 

A    Yes.   I  first  met  them  in  1984.   I  have  had  no 
meetings  with  them  since  then,  but  I  certainly  know  who  they 
are  and  what  they  do. 

Q    Was  Octaviano  Cesar  a  member  of  any  contra 


UNSIZED 


852 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

II 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

1» 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


65 

organization? 

A    In  198  3  he  was  working  with  a  group  called  Riscate, 
which  basically  meant  rescue  the  revolution,  and  then  he 
worked  with  his  brother  Alfredo  with  BOS. 

Q    Would  you  call  Octaviano  Cesar  a  contra  leader? 

A    No. 

Q    What  about  his  brother  Alfredo?  What  was  his 
background? 

A    Yes,  he  was  a  Sandinista.   He  left  in  1982. 
He  was  a  well-educated  man,  head  of  the  Sandinista  Nicaraguan 
Bank,  and  now  is  one  of  the  directors  of  the  Nicaraguan 
resistance. 

Q    What  contra  organization  was  he  with? 

A    He  started  his  own  called  BOS. 

Q    When  would  that  have  been? 

A    Sometime  in  1984,  I  think. 

Q    Was  he  ever  supported  by  North  funds  or  Calero 
funds? 

A    Not  that  I  know  of,  no.   He  was  supported,  I  believe 
by  the  Socialists  International. 

Q    Do  you  know  of  any  drug  allegations  concerning 
either  of  these  — 

A    I  have  heard  the  allegation  of  Octaviamo  Cesar, 
I  think  it  was  60  Minutes  or  20/20  —  no.  West  57th  Street, 
my  favorite  show,  did  one  of  those. 


««sy» 


853 


UNIJ^WSD 


66 

Q    Did  you  see  the  show? 
J        A    I  think  so. 

«        Q    The  allegation  was  there  that  he  funneled  funds 
.    from  drug  dealers? 
_        A    Right . 

g        Q    Do  you  know  if  North  was  aware  of  these 
_   allegations? 

A    Not  that  I  am  aware  of. 
-        Q    You  never  discussed  it  with  him? 

10      ^   ^°- 

..        Q    Did  you  discuss  it  with  DEA,  any  DEA  agents  or 

.,    CIA  officials? 

J-        A    No.   I  didn't  really  know  about  Octaviano  until 

West  57th  Street. 
14 

j_        Q    In  any  case,  the  allegation  would  have  been  after  the 

,-    CIA  investigation? 
1o 

A    As  far  as  I  know. 

Q    Do  you  know  of  any  information  linking  Alfredo 

Cesar  with  drug  trafficking? 

A    No. 
20 

Q    Is  he  an  independently  wealthy  man? 

A    I  don't  know.   I  think  he  had  some  money.   I 
22 

imagine  now  he  is  getting  assistance . 

Q    Are  you  fauniliar  with  the  name  Humberto  Quinones? 
24 

A  No. 


25 


utmsstdED 


854 


67 


1  MR.  BERMINGHAM:   That  is  all  I  have. 

2  MR.  LEON:   Mr.  Owen,  I  want  to  ask  just  two 

3  questions. 

*  BY  MR.  LEON: 

5        Q    This  letter  that  you  have  in  front  of  you,  a  copy 

^  of  that  you  have  previously  provided  us  — 

7  A    Yes. 

8  Q    Was  it  your  impression  that  these  were 

9  allegations  that  Hull  had  heard  about  and  that  he  was  bringing 
10  them  to  your  attention  — 

"        A    Yes. 

'2        Q    —  in  the  hope  that  you  might  be  able  to  have  them 

13  checked  out? 

'4         A    Yes,  exactly. 

15  Q    So  as  to  the  accuracy  of  what  is  stated  in  this 

16  letter,  there  were  questions  in  your  mind,  in  Hull's  mind, 

17  and  other  minds  as  to  whether  any  of  it  was  accurate  at  all? 

18  A    Yes.   There  was  the  thought  that  he  may  be  another 

19  crazy. 

20  Q         That  who  might  be? 

21  A         Kelso. 

22  Q    You  didn't  have  the  time,  correct  me  if  I  am  wrong, 

23  to  conduct  an  investigation  yourself  into  all  these 

24  allegations? 

25  A    Right. 


0KCU£5U(lFn 


855 


uinA^iffie 


68 


\  Q  Nor   did   you? 

2  A    Right.   I  mean  there  were  major  concerns  that 

3  regarded  the  lawsuit. 

4  Q    And  to  the  extent  that  you  discussed  it  with  Colonel 

5  North,  you  were  bringing  it  to  his  attention  for  his  informa- 

6  tion  in  the  event  that  it  might  have  some  concerns  with 

7  things  that  he  was  working  on  as  a  staff  member  at  the  NSC? 

8  A    Certainly,  and  obviously  if  the  DEA  was  involved 

9  as  the  allegations  were  that  it  was  wrong  and  that  it  should 
^0  be  investigated. 

11  Q    From  your  experience  in  dealing  with  Colonel  North 

12  did  he  in  fact  ever  tolerate  any  activity  on  the  part  of  any 

13  U.S.  Government  officials  in  narcotics  running  in  Central 

14  America? 

15  A    None  whatsoever.   Would  he  have  tolerated  it  from 

16  what  you  can  tell? 

17  A    No. 

18  Q    Would  he  have  tolerated  any  similar  type  conduct 

19  by  leaders  of  contras  or  members  if  he  beceune  aware  of  it? 

20  A    None  whatsoever.   He  would  not  have  condoned  it, 

21  accepted  it  or  approved  it. 

22  MR.  LEON:   Thank  you  very  much.   Unless  you  have 

23  something  you  want  to  offer  in  conclusion,  I  have  no  further 

24  questions. 

25  MR.  HYLDEN:   No,  it  has  been  a  pleasure  to  be  here. 
(Whereupon,  at  12  ^4Jl-p.jig^  Ah|Mi|y  Bition  concluded.) 


iW£iiJW1t' 


856 


nt 


^  jmmn 

^    huS^    -       /^     /   ^f    ^t*^/**^  V^>*»-J     'T^- August. 9/ 8/^ 


3   .V 


-1^ 


A  gringo  age  about  28  to  30,blu«  •/••  heavy  build, 6  ft  tall 
arrived  at  mucllt  being  driven  by  Edgardo  Alpizar.A  dentist  that 
lives  on  the  ather  side  of  the  river  from  John  Hull  . 

The  dentist  being  well  known  to  the  guards  was  permitted  to 
the  main  house  . 


The  dentist 


brought  to  his 


With  an  ongoing  fight  with  the  U.S. A  liberal  leftist 
press, 2C00  c«ws  100.000  citrus  trees, two  teen  age  children  and 
three  dogs  to  warry  aboQt  I  was  not  wild  with  joy  that  these 
people  brought  me  one  more  headache. 

I  did  agree  to  feed  the  boy.  put  hia  under  armed 
guard, listen  to  his  story. In  retrospect  this  was  not  one  of  my 
most  brillant  decissions-the  story  goes  as  fellows. Mane  of  gringo 
on  passport  was  Klchard  Willlans.Hawever  he  said  the  passport  was 

false, his  real  nAiM  is  Joseph  Itebert  Kelso. Sorn  in  Minn.  U.S.A. 
working  out  of  Denver  ColoreJc 
IH^H^HHI^HI^IA^^*^  brought  him  had  told  him  he  would 
safe  here  as  I  cauld  not  be  carrupted  by  drug  money. This  shows 
the  disadvantage  of  •  good  reputation  as  no  one  has  ever  offerd 
me  any  money. How  do  we  know  what  my  price  night  be  7 

The  Richard  Williams  passpoart  that  belonged  to  Joe  Kelso 
did  have  •  foto  of  the  young  man  who  ever  he  is.  showed 
immigration  stamps  for  several  Curttpaan  and  mid  Cast 
Countries. The  story  continues  as  fallows. 

Richard  Willias^j  recieved  a  call  four  weeks  ago  in  Egypt  to 
came  to^Costa  Rica  to  help  one  Brian  Caldwell  who  had  informstion 
that  there  was  to  be  an  attempt  on  the  life  of  Oscar  Arias 
president  of  Costa  Rica. during  his  visit  tq  Colombia. This  info 
along  with  sopporting  tapes  had  been  sent  to  Mr.  Scott  McDaniel."" 
U.S.A.  military  Panama .  Sauthcoir.. Alleged  assarinj^  were  RTTTTnd 
ETA 


857 


[«r«  also  on^BBHI  payroU^^^^H^^hos  «  b«nK  acct  in 
Ar9cnttn«,Pan«ma  and  Miamx  and  •om«  of  tMa  can  b«  checked  with 
JSp«Uln9)who  works   for  U.S.A.customa  N«w  Orltana. 

^>f  U.S.A-D.E.A  haa  mapa  of  coka  lab  locationa  in 

Coatl  Rica  5ut  is  protacting  them,  one  large  lab  located  in 
southern  Nicoya .Another  in  Talamanca  region  Caat  CoaatiOopc 
people  have  killed  the  son  of  one  don  Augusto, heavy  investor  in 
new  Holiday  inn, San  Jose  ,a  fellow  by  the  name  of  Hoppe  has 
contract  on  Augusto  jicrsonaly  so  drug  people  can  use  hotel  to 
launder  money. 

Somewhere  in  the  notes  I  have  the  name  of  ^^H^|  who  is  a 
bad  ass  and  owns  a  house  that  the  U.S.A-0«E. A. people  use  too  live 
in. 

By  this  time  I  am  confused,!  didn't  remember  who  I  was  and 
should  I  be  on  the  side  of  the  killors  or  the  killees.One  gree:. 
passport  showed  a  sad  faced  old  man  and  said  John  Hull  U.S.A. 
citizin.The  other  red  showed  a  handsome  smileing  bastard  and  said 
John  Hull  Costa  Rican. Since  there  was  no  bank  acet  to  be  found  in 
Argentina , Panama  or  Miami  I  soon  loat  intrest  and  called  the 

to  com*  and"  give  an 
expert  opinion^^H  is  a  wise  and  prudent  man  so  he  took  off  to 
seek  advice  from  the  U.S. A. Embassy  people. 

blot  being  knon  for  wisdom  or  prudence. but  having  just  heard 
the  U.S.A.-O.E.A.teas  had  checked  in  their  whit^hat^^^^^eck 
ones, and  remembering  that  my  two  requests  '<'0''^H^^^H|H '°'' 
help  had  resulted  in  nothing  being  done, I  decioe^^t^cal^the 
local  rural  guard  and  the  local  O.I .S-Oept. internal  security. By 
now  Richard  William  was  asleep  in  the  4ueet  cabin  beeing  guarded 
by  aur  personal  guarda 

^^^^■IMH  of  the  rural  guard^^showed  up  with  three 
guards. Then  the  local  OIS  with  two. Il^^l^l  made  a  phone  call  to 
San  Jose  and  was  told  Millia^jfa^^ry  dangerious  and  should  be 
shot  if  he  resi/^d  arrest  .^H^JHH  ^*^^*^  '^^  '^"^  "^'*  guards. 

Now  we  h^A  e  rural  guards  2  O.I.S  with  uxis,3  indians  with 
12  guage  riot  guns. There  is  a  law  in  Costa  Rica  that  the  police 
can  not  coae  on  private  property  and  arrest  people  from  6  p.m.  to 
6a.m. so  we  decided  Williams  should  sleep  until  6a.m. 

land  X  had  a  couple  of  beere  and  went  to  sleep  while 
Margarita, the  maid  and  Sandra  made  coffee  and  sandwiches  for  the 
guards  and  peon  onlookers. 

At  3(30  A^ I  was  awakend  by  a  burst  of  machine  gum  fire, 
shouts, curses, etc, and  went  auteide  to  see  the  gringo  Williams 
come  out  with  his  hands  up  only  to  be  struck  with  a  rifle  butt 
and  knocked  down  and  being  kicked  while  dpwn. There  was  a  big 
argument  going  on  between  the  OIS  and  a  rural  guard 
that  had  come  over  from  San  Jose  to  take  charge. 

The  gringo  was  marched   to  the  main  house  in  his  undrewear 
and  knocl^ed  down  again. At  this  point  Margarita  joined  forces  w^h 
^^e  O.I.S   telling  the  ■■i^|.  that  violence  wasn't  necessary -^^ 
■^^shouted  It  was  better  to  kill   him  than   te  killed. The  indian 


858 


MIKSW 


0/    ^^ 


or  his  ahoutln9  at  their  *p«trona".Thcy  wer«  ttandinq  with  their 
•ar»  up  and  shotgun  safety  off  like  •lateffls  guard  dogs  that  had 
bean  told  to  bit*  a  blaeli  and  ceuldnt  decide  which  one. 

Yours  truly  was  doddering  around  trying  to  establish  peaceful 
relations  bv  saying  there  was  surly  so»e  aiistake, without  telling 
everyone  I  was  the  one  that  made  it. I  could  see  enough  shit, 
blood  and  bad  press  ink  cemeing,to  peint  the  house  with  enough 
left  over  for  the  corral. 

Since  you  are  in  Wash. You  night  cheek  these  things  out^ 
the  D.C. A. people  are  in  the  drug  buisnese  it  should  be  ttot 


le'eontrt'  K 
aiueh  about 


l^lll 
la  w 
youT 


went  thru  th«t 
coke. or  crooks 


Anyway  we  are  so  hepf 
we're  not  enclined  to  worry  too 
todey. 

S.O.r  called   me  today  fro*  Guateaele  wanting  to  co««  get 
action  shots  here  since  the  aid  bill  paaa«dj 

Bey  do  I  ever  get  the  craaies.You  andHH*'*  ^^*  ^"^^  **"* 
friends  I  have  and  sometimes  I  worry  about  yoi 


Sincerely. 


wmm 


859 


<Lf 


■   !\^ 

cC 

CO 


MUSSIRED 


ST; 


August. 17/8/86 


It  is  a  strange  world  in  which,  1  litft  yesterday  at  daybreak 
10  rural  guards, 1  capt.2  majors  came  to  the  farm  protect  ^res. 
Ariasimini5LerjF  of  government-minister  of  transpctation   that  were 
due  to  land  at  muelle  8a.m. 

Soon  we  had  two  choppers  and  three  airplanes  here  with  brass 
galore. The  chopper  put  the  president  in  Quesada.but  we  had  10 
cars  full  of  preisecurity  D.I.S  -press  people  etc, one  Col.  head 
of  Costa  Rica  air  force  anither  Col. head  of  rural  guard  north  zone 
one-It  Col. several  majors  a.',d  room  full  of  captain*. 

The  maid  was  off  for  mothers  day  so  Sandra, Johnny  and 
Margarita  spent  all  day  mekeing  sandwiches, coffee, etc. This  was 
very  good  for  Margarita/"  indegestion.when  she  awoke  and  saw  all 
the  hungry  people  she  shit. 

At  first  the  press  people  got  n«  to  one  side  and  said  they 
would  not  print  that  they  were  on  the  farm, the  wanted  to  protect 
me,  from  what, they  didn't  say.. 


/'A^  Cub    —  ^    Since  I  didi^^reanT^^TiS^T^^^l  would  like  to  start  a  J^/r, 

Tf  y^tf     wamt   t>    sta^t  a  wAS/ff^/iroN    chapter 

^^ .    /iL^Affi     Has      poun      Cc/^^M re^s     ^^^p  -     T£  f-*— 

Blcmdie    —     WHAT    Dc£i      A^uAJfa     D^     A/a^y  ^-^ 

Av6-    /p  - 


860 


And  now  the  b««t  n«w«  of  allt 

^  I  N«xa.  w««k,   •Stk  In  aeeaaa/effBOM  will  >i'"Hpotltj4'7\  th«  uiual 

p  /\«c/oW.     WhilaVhit  ■QStrb*  httthuidcdyar*  fully  ylt  shtald  adlov 

^  }\\id  td  brl/9«  th«  \«p  baieWMB  now Vad  when  th«  >■•<•  is  taK«n  and 
— .r        yh«   f^ftd*  ar«  turnk4.^ag«ln.        ^"^  y"^''^^^      ^-^        /\^ 


mmm 


861 


wmsm 


So  t^at  w#  ^.iv*  i   pl*n,  :  prapost  the  !olIowir.c  steps  as  ^.^rres: 
pricrity: 

~yp  fcrces  in  th«  p.ortharn  part  of  Sicaraqu*  r.««<i  tc  fct  d-.scersj 
sc  -'".a-  •■•■ev  af  not  ciuqht  in  th«  iirastorr  as  th»  S«r.ciir.i'itn 
s.nt«nc . 


^_^_^^_^^_^^^^^  If  th«  htqh  ground  can  >>•  J^ju*rda<i.  »s«.. 
thos«  who  narbor  in  thoi«  araaa  will  b€  «af>. 


Maanwhila.  th«  force*  and  volunt««rt  who  hav«  arrlvdj 
^^can  b«  outfitted,  provid«d  with  aom*  training,  an^ 


'If  a  ragular  rtaupply  program  ca- 

t€  €stabl.:.sh€d  ifW^WTT^TTT^*  dapositad  naxt  w««'<,  u«  car 
start  a  regular  logiitic*  program  of  ona  flight  every  10- '.5  days 
and  the  steady  movement  of  auppliea  and  ammunition  to  the  forvaid 
tases. 

Most  important  i*  saving  the  force  from  what  I  believe  will  te  i 
serious  effort  to  destroy  it  in  the  next  few  weeks,  while  *  <r.cw 
it  hurts  to  hide,  now  it  the  ttm«  to  do  it.  While  they  are 
hiding,  the  man  who  it  carrying  thit  mettage  can  start  the 
regular  resupply  procetc.   I  believe  it  would  be  wite  to  dedicate 
as  much  as  S9-10M  for  nothing  but  logistics.  To  coordinate  a 
na'or  effort  such  at  thit,  I  strongly  urge  that  you  bring  abcar. 
a  logistics  export  who  it  both  Unowledgeable  ard  trusty,   .he 
courier  should  be  able  to  help  with  thit. 


^^^^TimTn^hM  h*rd  at  they  phate  down 

in  fruttration  fre«  tkeir  current  op*'**^*""  •"^^'"t'fiC'  ** 
teleeted  ttratefie  targets  with  your  enhanced  capability. 

Thit  new  money  will  provide  greet  ""iJ^i^L^r/lJ^Sr  •"^"^•^ 
to  date,   t  would  urge  you  to  m*ke  «••?;•<*•  «;j|jrj?'  "^can 
Britith  friend  and  hit  tervlcet  for  to«:lAJ.jeperatlont^  l   can 
produce  him  at  the  end  of  ^hlt_monthJ 


862 


wmm 


Ycu  and  I  both  reeeor. i_^^_txiA.  value  ar.d  Iin^itatior.s . 

cur  Conqrtas  art  aware J^^^^^^^^M^B^^^^MM^^^l 

IB^mi^BHBHHIHB^HIHH^^^^^^^H^T^^^ccuTd  be 
deves^at  :..-.g  lo  our  f  orthcomin^caBpWg^to  restore  the  fundi.-.!;. 
I  will  find  out  how  much  h«  is  getting  and  let  you  know,  but  i'. 
seems  as  though  something  should  b«  set  aside  for  this  purpose. 


Request  you  advise  me  soonest  regarding  the  depos^^^n^destroy 
this  letter  after  reading.   The  map  can  be  passed^|^^^  with 
rTiy  best  wishes.   Please  do  net  in  any  way  malce  anyone  aware  of 
the  deposit.   Too  much  is  becoming  Icrown  by  too  many  people.   >.■« 
r.eed  to  make  sure  that  this  new  financing  does  not  become  Itnown. 
The  Congress  must  believe  that  there  continues  to  be  an  urgent 
need  for  funding. 

Warm  regards, 
Steelhammer 


UNGLA^IFfEi! 


863 


TO: 


The  Hammer 


mmm 


■n 


pril  1,    1985 


FROM:  T.C^ 

SUBJECT:   southern  Front 

The  following  paper  discusses  a  series  of  meetings  the  author  has  had 
over  the  last  several  weeks  concerning  the  future  of  the  Southern  Front. 
These  meetings  took  place  in  the  South  and  in  Washington.   The  most 
recent  ones  were  held  on  Friday  and  Saturday,  March  29  and  10  in 
Washington. 

Proiect  for  Reconstruction 

The  Project  was  conceived  by  seven  people.   They  are: 

Partially  DecM'isified/Released  onAHjEsJiSP' 
under  provisions  ol  E.O  12365 
by  K  Johnson.  National  Security  Council 


The  meeting  was  originally  proposed  and  setup  by 

About  four  months  ago  some  six  of  the  seven  came  to  Washington, at 
the  urging  of  Nat  Henry,  to  meet  with  Senator  Helms.   They  gave  the 
Senator  the  attached  paper  and  discussed  their  idea  but  they  never 
heard  another  thing  from  the  Senator  or  his  staff.   Out  of  desperation 
they  came  one  more  time  hoping  to  meet  with  the  Hammer. 

I   had  metmH^I  during  the   sunvner  of   1983  when  I   visitec 

He  recognizecnTie  and  was  glad  the  meeting  was  with  someone  he  knew. 
All  three  realized  the  reasons  for  the  meeting  with  me  instead  of 
with  the  powers  that  be. 

The  concerns  of  these  people  and  who  they  represent  are  valid.   They 
include: 

•  Lack  of  leadership  in  the  south 

•  An  alternative  to  Pastora 

•  Lack  of  coordination  between  several  small  groups 
now  operating 

•  The  need  for  a  new  organization  to  mount  operations 

In  essence,  these  people  are  offering  their  services  to  structure  and 
organize  a  new  southern  front. 


They  say  they  represent|_ 

of  some  43  men  under  the  commanc 

camp  which  is  under  the  command  of  the 

This    las^cMip   is   actually  under   the   day  to  d| 

named^^^^^H  but   overall    is   undewttlAaUMA  of  J 


which  now  consists 
and  ahother 
people, 
a  Nicaraguan 


864 


Southern  Front 
April  1,  1985 
Page  2 


mi&m 


Before  comiing  to  Washington,  they  said  they  had  met  with^^^^^^Band 
had  talked  with  the  Cubans  in  Miami  who  are  working  the  otne^^ffip. 
The  former  is  true,  but  they  did  not  come  representing  the  Cubans 
or  the  other  camp. 


They  believe  the  time  is  right  to  begin  establishing  a  new  structure. 
There  are  many  people  who  are  financially  on  their  last  legs  and  if 
this  does  not  cotne  through  they  will  have  to  abandon  the  fight,  so 
they  are  in  hopes  something  will  work  out. 

Obviously,  they  hoped  for  an  answer  in  the  near  future.   I  put  them 
off  and  said  I  or  someone  will  get  back  to  them  in  the  next  two  to 
three  weeks. 

They  believe  they  are  capable,  have  the  leadership  and  the  knowledge 
necessary  to  undertake  this  effort.   Although  they  will  operate  in 
the  south,  they  will  stay  away  from  Pastora  and  not  infringe  on  his 
territory.   They  will  work  closer  to  the  Pacific.   It  was  stressed  they 
would  work  in  concert  with  the  North. 


UNCUSSIRFn 


865 


Southern  Front 
April  1,  1985 
Page  3 


One  last  corment  that  they  made  and  has  been  made  by  others:  some 
of  Pastora's  field  commanders  are  ready  to  join  any  side  which  will 
provide  them  with  food  and  medicines.   They  have  not  been  resupplied 
in  at  least  8  months.   In  fact,  several  of  his  commanders  want  to 
leave  and  actually  aren't  controlled  by  Pastora,  he  just  talks  with 
thetn  over  the  radio.  These  include  according  tol 


Others  who  will  leav 
between  them  have 


UPDATE 


-PRIL   9,    1985 


Sparkplug  has  decided  to  go  with 
commander  of  the  South.   There  wi 
which  will  have  supervisory  capacity 
made  up  of 


as  the  military 
military  council 
will  be 


!has  broken  down  the  camp  that  was  under  hin 
hus  spread  the  menaroun^^ll«  is  waiting  tor  •quipntcin 
start  coming  in  ^^^^^tK/j/^^^M  ^'o^^^   i-s  good  and  the  men  will 
start  working  in  smal^teani^^^^^ 


The  concern  about  ^^m^^ is  that  he  drinks  a  fair  amount  and  may 
surround  himself  with  people  who  are  in  the  war  not  only  to  fight, 
but  to  make  money.   People  who  are  questionable  because  of  past 
indiscresti ons 


82-726  0-88-29 


866 


southern  Front 
April  9.  1985 
Page  4 


UNCIASSIHED 


These  are  just  some  of  the  people  Sparkplug  and  others  should  be  wary 
about. 

Whatever  structure  is  established  for  the  South,  tight  control 

must  be  kept  on  the  money  and  resources.   In  the  past  it  has  been 

too  easy  to  sell  goods  and  too  many  people  have  learned  how  to 

make  a  good  living  off  of  the  war.  Money  and  equipment  must  be  accoxint- 

ed  for  and  when  there  are  differences,  examples  should  be  made. 


Posey  has  an  individual  willing  to  outright  donate  between  70,000 
and  80,000  lbs.  of  medical  supplies  to  the  effort.  It  is  a  wide 
assortment  of  goods  and  someone  will  have  to  look  at  it  to  see 
what  is  good  and  what  isn't.  It  is  now  located  in  South  Carolina. 

The  material  can  be  shipped  as  far  as  Alabama  by  the  individual  who 
is  going  to  donate  it,  but  it  has  got  to  get  from  ;^labama  to  New 
Orleans. 

Flako  is  back  in  business.  He  has  established  himself  in  New  Orleans 
and  is  working  on  some  new  scams.  He  is  staying  at  the  Providence 
Hotel.  It  is  time  someone  paid  him  a  visit  and  told  him  to  go  back 
to  the  hole  he  comes  from. 


oNaissifiEo 


867 


UNCIASSIHEO 


ANALYSIS,      CONCLUSIONS,      AND     RECCh?4SNI)ATI0NS 

FROM     TEE     KILIT.'J.Y     COKVISSION 

REG/JiDING     THE     PROJECT     PO?.     THE     RECONSTRUCTION     0? 

THE     SOUTHERN     PHOKT 


I.  INTRODDCTION 

■II.  GENERAL  SITUATION  OP  PIECES  INTOLVEB 

III.  COKCLOSIONS 

IV.  KECCr»'EN!)ATICNS 

V.  PIKAL 


•U'f 


868 


UNCIASSIHED 


I.   lOTBODOCTIOH 


With  the  utmost  conviction,  we  consider  that  the  conception  of  the  mili- 
tary struggle  in  Nicara^a  must  be  covered  by  two  big  projects s   TEE 

NORTHiaiN  PROJECT  kllD     THS  SOUTHiiiN  PROJECT. 

However,  the  strategy  to  carry  out  these  two  big  projects  complsoenta- 
rily,  has  had  great  obstacles.  It  is  a  reality  that  for  the  public 
opinion  both  projects  are  antagonic.  Ve  are  facing  today  the  worst 
moment;  even  the  Southern  Front  lacks  profound  contradictions  that 
polarize  it  among  them  and  they  strange  it  from  the  desired  equili- 
brium with  the  Northern  Front  to  reach  a  complete  coordination  that 
is  indlepenspble  to  carry  out  a  truly  articulate  struggle  in  Nicaragua 
that  will  permit  us  to  comply  with  the  first  phase  of  directed  coordi- 
nation, indispensable  step  so  that  together  with  the  military  triumph 
it  may  geminate  THE  STABILITY  OF  THS  lOTUSE  POWER. 

Due  to  diverse  reasons,  the  Northern  Front  has  managed  the  consolidation 
of  a  structure  that  (allows  et  a  medium  term  to  comply  with  the  purpose 
of  its  design.  It  has  the  profeseionalization  and  the  discipline  ne- 
cessary to  start  to  play  its  role  as  NORTHERN  PROJECT  and  is  ready 
to  comply  with  it  as  compensation  for  the  SOUTHERN  one. 

The  SOUTHERN  FRONT,  in  the  present  circumstances,  has  not  been  able 
to  even  comply  with  the  local  design  of  military  struggle  and  it  could 
even  leas  be  in  conditions  of  being  a  factor  of  cop.plementary  balance 
for  the  NORTHihN  FRCOT,  in  order  for  it  to  be  the  adequate  counter- 
weight, the  so  necessary  Bower  eqvilibriua  for  the  stability  of  the 


869 


-  2  - 


future  triumph. 


UNOJfiSire 


This  Bituation  places  us  before  the  URCSKT  NECESSITY  of  putting  or- 
der in  the  SOUTH  in  order  to  inmediately  start  to  comply  with  the 
local  t?8k  of  struggling.  We  must  adequately  structure  it  to  deve- 
lop the  role  corresponding  to  it  as  necessary  balance  with  regards 
to  the  NDRTHERM  IBONT. 

We  have  to  reach  a  scenery  in  which  the  NDRTHERM  and  S0UTH2RN 
projects  become  complementary  to  each  other  and  we  can  thus  comply 
with  the  first  stage  of  strategic  design  that  we  consider  as  the 
moat  feasible  both  militarily  and  politically. 

Ve  consider  that  location  conditions,  as  well  as  the  persons  basica- 
lly forming  the  NORTHERM  project,  even  though  politically  end  progra- 
matically  they  are  still  far  from  perfect,  have  been  effective  stra- 
tegically, with  their  peimission  of  constitution  with  the  characteris- 
tics prograouaed  in  order  to  comply  with  its  role  as  part  of  a  more 
complex  whole.  Thus,  we  are  not  going  to  take  care  of  the  NORTH 
right  now  since  we  consider  that  we  have  time  to  make  certain  changes 
and  improvements  while  obtaining  its  complementation  with  the  SOUTH. 

The  intent  of  an  irregular  operation  having  characteristics  of  hetero- 
dox struggle  and  design,  prevented  because  of  its  audacity  and  little 
tangibility,  adequate  following  of  the  SOnTKERN  oper?tion  which  ia 
out  of  the  control  of  the  most  acute  analysts.  Due  to  the  lack  of 


UNClASSra 


870 


-  5  - 


UNCUSSIFIED 


certain  behavior  and  computable  situations  pattern,  we  were  obliged  to 
deposit  all  our  efforts  in  luck  or  in  the  best  case  to  trust.  In  this 
situation,  almost  experimental,  obviously  everything  overflowed  its 
trench,  and  what  we  have  managed  are  disorganized  pieces  of  a  puzzle 
that  new  har.ds  must  organize  taking  advantage  of  the  experience  accumu- 
lated. The  pieces  are  there.  Nothing  is  new.  We  only  have  to  follow 
the  indications  of  the  experience  accumulated  on  orieration  and  persons. 

The  location  conditions  of  the  SOUTHERN  project  are  much  more  complex 
and  out  of  control  that  may  permit  an  operation  coherently  directed, 
but  with  more  emphasis,  due  to  the  characteristics  of  the  inein  leaders. 
The  legitimacy  and  trajectory  of  these  leaders  allowed  them  in  time 
such  an  Independence  that  even  the  forming  of  such  a  heterodoxous  ope- 
ration resulted  in  the  project  itself  taking  a  course  of  ups  and  downs 
and  incoherences  that  obliged  even  its  programmers  to  make  certain 
stops  to  review  the  convenience  of  the  operation. 

The  degree  of  crisis,  especially  with  its  main  leader,  led  to  an  almost 
complete  break  between  the  main  leaders  and  the  programmers. 

It  seems  that  the  procrammers  arrived  at  the  definite  conclusion  that 
the  risks  to  which  the  global  operation  was  being  submitted  were  so 
iranense,  that  it  was  preferable  to  dispense  with  the  project's  "indis- 
pensability",  rather  than  to  continue  risking  time  running  against  the 
clock.  Such  a  decision  was  hard  not  only  for  the  mein  leader,  but  it 
also  debilitated  greatly  th»  secondary  actors,  the  entire  SOUTH,  and 
even  the  global  project. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


871 


-  4  - 


WMB 


Having  to  fac*  this  type  of  situation,  left  people  armed  ?nd  dispersed 
in  the  mountains,  without  any  resources,  with  resentments  because  they 
felt  abandoned  by  their  allies,  with  enpty  stonacha,  and  what  is  more 
serious,  without  having  cle?.r  in  their  minds  WHO  their  enemy  really 
is.  Conditions  allowed,  unfortunately,  that  secondary  actors  were 
presented  as  responsible  for  such  a  tragedy  and  without  authority  nor 
resources  to  face  it.  Even  so,  there  wore  people  who  faced  it,  and 
these  are  the  ones  who  today  ar-  proposing  restructuring  and  regene- 
ration of  the  SOUTHEHN  front. 


lifmsim 


872 


-  5  - 


IINCWSJIflEO 


II.  CBK?RAL  SITUATION  OF  POPCES  INVOLVED 

A.  F.S.L.N.  kSKED     FORCES 

The  organlz&tiona  coBprislnc  th^  Armed  Forcer  of  the  "Prent2  Sandi- 
nlsta  de  Ll'ber?ci6n  Nacioncl"  hare  develoTsed  under  the  direction 
of  eonsultents  from  various  coomuniet  countriea,  but  it  h<u  been 
Cub?n  militsrlea  and  teehnlci^.na  the  ones  who  have  assxaned  the 
preparation  and  indoctrination  of  the  combatsnts,  as  well  as  ca- 
rried out  the  war's  atrategy. 

The  important  orgf-nizationa  and  units  are  aa  followat 

-  The  Intematlonalista 

-  The  E.P.S.  (EJercito  Popular  Sandiniata  -  Popular  Sandinlat  Army) 

-  The  Populer  Filitisa 

-  The  Porcea  of  the  Ministry  of  the  Interior: 

-  Stste  Security 

-  Urb2ne  Sandinlat  Police 

-  Frontier  Guard  Police 

-  Patriotic  Military  Service,  and 

-  Unita  supporting  conib?t  that  deaerve  special  conslderationt 

-  Air  Force 

-  Armored  Force 

-  Artillery 

-  Coaet  Guard 


-  APPRO XDl-TE     NOT'.BER     OF     EFPECTTIVES: 
ONE  HUNDRED     TWENTY     THOUSAND    MEN 


IINCWSXIFIEO 


873 


-  6 


UNCWssm 


B.  TRIENDIY  PORCSSt  THE  P.D.K.   (NORTHERN  FRONT) 

Constituted  at  the  end  of  19811  it  developed  during  the  first  two 
years  a  eporadle  frontier  war  with  no  slgniflc?jit  accovnllshnentB. 
In  1984,  It  Bt?rted  a  deep  end  on  stant  vexation  cpwpalgn  against 
Nicaragua's  Northern  Departments,  thus  obliging  the  P. S.L.N,  to 
engage  great  quantities  of  human  and  logistic  resources. 

Even  if  it  has  been  this  orgF.nization  the  one  that  has  carried  the 
war's  continuity  and  weight,  it  has  not  been  able  to  politically 
capltElize  the  efforts  of  its  combatants,  due  to  the  negative 
shadow  that  has  been  projected  over  its  bodies  of  greater  hierar- 
chy for  some  reason  or  another. 

AFFROXIM.*.TE  NUMBER  OF  CCMBATANTS: 

PROM  EIGHT  TO  TEN  THOUSAND  KtSN. 

THE  SOUTHERN  FRONT i 

Formed  in  April  1982,  this  group  awakened  at  the  beginning  a  series 
of  expectations  and  hopes,  because  of  the  prestige  of  its  leaders 
and  inteimedlPte  bodies,  which  are  mostly  ex-combat?nts  a^inst 
the  Somoza  regime  and  old  Sandlnlsts  with  a  clear  democratic  orien- 
tation. 

The  meslanlc  character  of  its  most  relevant  le-der  Commander  Eden 


iiNcwno 


874 


-  7  - 


UNCussra 


PMtor»  Gomel,  Its  personalist  conception  of  the  milit-ry  strategy, 
of  Its  policies  and  administration,  added  to  the  pemanent  negative 
of  accepting  all  types  of  proposals  for  coordination  with  the  North- 
em  Front,  incited  the  grsdual  desertion  of  its  most  c?pfble  colla- 
borators, and  it  ended  up  dividing  the  Southern  Front's  original 
project. 

Once  this  crisis  was  incited  within  the  original  AHDS,  Commander 
Pastora  continued  commltin^  errors  continuously  in  the  c?rrying 
out  of  his  own  project,  errors  which  led  him  to   completely  lose 
the  support  of  the  intem?.tion^l  community  and  to  reduce  almost 
to  extinction  his  men's  fighting  cspaclty. 

At  the  present  time,  there  are  between  fo\>r  and  five  thousrud  men 
who  are  suffering  all  sorts  of  penuries,  scarcities,  and  calami- 
ties in  the  Southern  Zelaya  area,  and  are  exposed  to  a  fruitless 
sacrifice  as  a  result  of  any  offensive  opsrsitiona  on  the  part  of 
the  F.S.L.N.. 


ifumim 


875 


-  8  - 


III .     CONCLUSIONS 


i' 


>*iiMSIfltu 


A.  The  evolution  of  NICAS^.GUA'b  case,  ixslitical  events  and  the  not  too 
clear  attitude  of  the  North  American  Government  In  the  conversationB 
of  Manzanlllo,  lead  us  to  conclude  that  at  the  present  time  there 
are  two  possible  solutions  in  our  allies'  computers: 

1.  N2G0TIATI0N,- with  the  Sandinlst  Front  through  the  "Terceristas" 
.  presently  in  power,  which  in  our  opinion  would  only  secure  the 

communist  and  totalitary  dictatorship,  since  the  reel  "Terceris- 
tas", with  clear,  democr?.tlc  ideals  are  living  in  exile  since 
they  were  betrayed  just  like  all  nicer-guans  who  fought  against 
Soffloza's  family  dictatorship. 

2.  RADICAL  ELIKIKVTION  OF  THE  SANDINIST  FRONT  through  a  mili- 
tary operation  which  would  have  F.Q.N,  as  the  spear's  edge  and 
which  would  count  with  the  ssupport  of  the  Central  American 
countries  that  are  being  directly  threatened  by  the  Intrinsic 
expansioniam  of  Nicaragua's  Marxist-Lenninist  Revolution. 

This  operation,  which  would  need  approval  from  the  Organization 
of  American  States  and  of  the  Western  World's  International  So- 
cial-Democratic, Christlan-Denocratic,  and  Liberal  organizations, 
would  also  need  internal  supports  that  could  make  more  tolerable 
a  consolidation  period  that  would  virtually  rest  in  a  military 
intervention.  Ve  arc  glimpsing  to  perform  this  role  the  F.D.N. 's 
sectors  less  comritted  with  Somocism,  leaders  from  the  "histori- 


ONcussra 


876 


-  9  - 


UNCLASSra 


cal  parallels"  that  still  drsam  with  old  positions  and  ths  South- 
em  Front's  elements  that  accept  the  necessary  conditions. 

As  complementary  frame  to  the  entire  project,  that  apparently  counts 
with  the  United  Stp.tea  bipartidist  approval,  would  be  the  element 
we  call  THE  FUTURS'S  DiJlOCR'TIC  RESiHVE,  that  is  synthetically 
represented  by  persons  of  undisputable  prestige,  both  inside  and 
outside  Hicaragua,  and  which  will  be  called  to  participate  in  a 
third  stage,  as  promoters  for  the  restitution  of  a  legitimately 
constituted  government. 

This  commission  considers  the  eli-nination  of  the  SOUTH£KN  UtOKT 
a  mistake  and  esteems  that  the  existence  of  a  Southern  Kllitary 
Force  is  indispensable  not  only  for  a  f?8ter  fall  of  Managua's 
regime,  but  also  to  guarantee  the  Nicaraguan  people  an  orderly 
transition  smd  without  violent  revenge.  This  guarantee  will  come 
from  those  men  who,  with  a  clean  and  fighting  trayectory  0.gainst 
both  dictatorships,  will  provide  the  present  combatants  with  a 
real  alternative  in  the  face  of  the  confusion  in  which  they  are 
presently  caught. 

B.   The  comparative  analysis  of  the  Forces  in  conflict  clearly  reveals 
a  substantial  advantage  on  the  psrt  of  the  F.S.L.N., especially  in 
as  far  as  men,  offensive  capacity  of  its  supporting  anas  and  espe- 
cially in  the  illimited  logistic  capacity  that  its  allies  in  the 
Communist  orbit  have  at  their  disposal. 


iiNCUJSIflfO 


877 


-  10  - 


UNCLASSIFIED 


However,  we  must  take  into  consideration  that  no  tyranr.y  has  been 
able  to  subdue  with  bayonets  the  people  who  have  decided  to  be  free 
and  in  the  case  of  NICARAGDA,  the  gera  of  insurrection  is  now  clear- 
ly visibls. 

Misery  and  re?.l  hunger,  as  the  product  of  an  incapable  administr"-- 
tlon,  repressions,  and  continuous  violation  of  human  rights  have 
conformed  a  pre-insurrectional  climate,  that  can  well  become  a  gene- 
ralized uprising,   IF  A  COMPACT  EXILE  intelligently  directed 
offers  a  real  position  of  change  to  the  Mic^raguan  people. 

C.   After  three  years,  it  h?.s  been  denonstrated  that  Eden  Fastora  is  not 
only  not  capable  of  agglutinating,  but  is  on  the  contrary  a  "Soli- 
tary Wolf"  that  destroys  whatever  means  organisation  and  unity. 

B.   After  three  years  it  has  been  demonstrated  that  the  F.C.K.  in  the 
North,  in  spite  of  great  legitimpte  sacrifice  of  its  combatants, 
due  to  its  past,  does  not  acquire  "legitia?.cy"  before  the  world, 
which  is  the  factor  that  is  indispensable  for  the  stability  that 
Micrxegua's  future  requires. 

E.   It  is  then  with  real  urgency  t*-at  all  elements  having  true  prestige 
must  "Join  hands"  due  to  the  investiture  that  their  trajectory  gives 
them,  in  order  to  be  able  to  realize  the  unity^  unity  which  at  the 
present  tiae  is  being  obstaculized  by  the  fear  of  the  two  groups 
rivalizing  for  hepemony,  thus  prrducinr  the  oproeite  effect. 


uNcussm 


878 


mmm 


This  car.  orly  be  neutr?lized  by  =  rew  -oliticpl-military  ingredient, 
that  Just  like  the  one  ve  ?re  rr-TVsains-,  ol-'ces  in  evidence  what  In 
our  opinion  conatiti'tss  maybe  the  last  real,  lepitirate,  fnd  rccep- 
table  rossibillty:  th?t  it  be  us,  nic-irscu'ns,  the  ones  to  decide 
our  future. 


IV     recow-j;m;;  TICKS 


To  mflint?in  -nd  technify  the  Southern  ''illtPry  Force,   which  chotild 
ouer^te  in  totfl  coordination  with  the  P.D.N,   in  the  Northern  Front, 
and  eliininste,    once  and  for  all,    all    rroj-cts   of  T-?rallel   forces  in 
the   8?in2  region. 

To  this  effect,    our  alli'is  must  make   a  definite  decision  that  can  be 
sup-'.-rized  ps  follows': 

Revitcllre  Pt  the   Tesent  rr'>P'>nt  th"  F.P.S.   from   Its  vorFt  crisis, 
or  confom  a  different   structure  with  the  exlstir^?  politlc<'l-<iiili- 
tsry  troops  9r.d  militia  rrofession^-lB  "ho  h=v^   indicated  their 
willinsnera  to  incorrorote  themselves  to  ?  cle^r  and  coherent  -pro- 
ject. 

In  our  opinion,   Cor<r?nder  Ppstora's  retreat   from  tho  erred  struffrle 
will  rot  C9use  a  rower  void,    sine?   it  h^s  been  hie   nresence  what 
h?9  m?intpined  until  tod=v  .-   "-rm-ner^t  vol-*  of  real  loader-hl''. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


879 


UNCLASSIFIED 


We  consid3r  that  the  Southern  Mllit?ry  Forces'  main  niF;i'>n  should 
be  thst  of  cresting  snail  unite  with  sufficient  irobillty  and  fifht- 
ing  capacity  to  le?.d   the  war  towards  the  Pacific  cities.     Tot'l  nu"'- 
ber,   <T"s  re'iuired,   prdo-^rative  norms  will  be  discur^ed  once     all 
there  recrmrendationr.  ?re  e-^TOvsd. 


COKCLUSIOK 

Most  of  the  -ecibers  of  this  Corirision  heve  8tru£'rled  pj=inet  P.S.L.N.'s 
totalit?ry  dictatorship  fron  the  r>orent  it  betreyed  th"   ideels  &nd  as- 
crifices  of  our  f'i-JRr'rufn  brothers. 

We  have  backed  co^b't  zni  the  nrsitions  rdorted  by  C->'-'^''nd=r  P'stor'^ 
until  we  thought  these  v;ere  ori  =  r.tc<*   tovsric  "ic=r-ri.!* 'e  liberation. 
However,    i-  th"  free  ';f  th-   ,*\\.-.ctur9  ve  are  in  of  deciding  betvreen 
Kicrrgu'  =nd  Conr=.nder  Psrtor?,   ve  hevr  -!?de  the  decision  which  co- 
rresrondr  to  seneible  in.->r  vith  ids<>ls  of    ?-.ThI0TISt1. 

V'e  cleprly  e?t:-.bli8h  th?t  '•■e  h^'ve  not  su^-orted  nor  s'-on=or:d  sny 
ty-e  of  rr prccheffr'nt  with  th"  S-ii^inlst  Front.     ''=  h=ve  not  aprrc- 
ved,    'ith-r,   tri-e  o"  the  rart  "f  ''eleg-trs   t-  h've  c?rv--8-tion9 
with  f-e  S-ndj-lst  Pr^rt   ir.  'ica--- -,'». 


WUSXIflffl 


880 


ONCLASSIHED 


0\ir  final  twasition  in  this  •stru?"!'!  conti'Tii.'-?   t?  >■»»  -if  Bui-ortirf 
th?  iBibitiouf  drcflr?  of  our  i^eotile  of  Ttroli"*?  Hic+.-t-rohjp?,   '.'hPt- 
ev=r  f-^iT"  i-'aoloy->'  ic.    and  before  becominr  ppsouerrder  for  a  new 
And  norc  p-lnfur  version  of  Pif's  B^y,   we  d<»clrre  before   the   free 
cnuntrlea  of  the  world  Vr^t  V9  r^^-rve  the  rirht  of  t'.eci'linj  on 
our  ovTi  f-e   future  of  '^"r  Cwntry. 


Novei!ber  20,    1984,   S--n  Jose,   Cost^  Ric" 


nHmm 


881 


BNCUSaflfi) 


UNCLASSIFIED 


882 


^' 


883 

llNCLASSiriCD  ^'""^ 

TRANSCRIPT  Hs,c^^^ 
OF  PROCEEDINGS 

CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 

dttlGblS^EIkL 

DEPOSITION  OF  RICHARD  M.  PSNA 

a 

■    TO 

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Washington,    D.    C.  sg  g    -: 

■P  or  ?i 

Sf  "^  '  - 

Monday,    May   4,    1987  4f  .H    ; 


Ace-Federal  Reporters,  Inc. 

Sletiotype  Reporters 

444  North  Capitol  Street 

Washington,  DC.  20001 

(202)  347-3700 


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-CO^'ET 


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UNCLASSIFIED 

UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON 

SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE  TO 

IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 


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DEPOSITION  OF  RICHARD  M.  PENA 

•  Washington,  D.  C. 

Monday,  May  4,  1987 

Deposition  of  RICHARD  M.  PENA,  called  for  examination 
pursuant  to  subpoena,  at  the  offices  of  the  Senate  Select 
Committee,  Suite  901,  Hart  Senate  Office  Building,  at  10:25 
a.m.  before  WENDY  S.  COX,  a  Notary  Public  within  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia,  when  were  present: 


W.  THOMAS  McGOUGH,  JR.,  ESQ. 

Associate  Special  Counsel 

United  States  Senate  Select 
Committee  on  Secret  Military 
Assistance  to  Iran  and  the 
Nicaraguan  Opposition 

THOMAS  FRYMAN,  ESQ. 
Staff  Counsel 
KENNETH  R.  BUCK,  ESQ. 
Assistant  Minority  Counsel 
United  States  House  of 

Representatives  Select 

Committee  to  Investigate 

Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran 


JOSEPH  B.  TOMPKINS,  JR.,  ESQ 
Sidley  &  Austin 
Washington,  D.  C.   20006 
On  behalf  of  the  Deponent 


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CONTENTS 


WITNESS 

Richard  M.  Pena 

by  Mr.  McGough 
by  Mr.  Tompkins 


E  X  H  IB  ITS 


PENA  DEPOSITION  NUMBER 

Exhibit  1  • 

Exhibit  2 

Exhibit  3 

Exhibit  4 

Exhibit  5 

Exhibit  6 

Exhibit  7 

Exhibit  8 

Exhibit  9 

Exhibit  10 

Exhibit  11 

Exhibit  12 

Exhibit  13 

Exhibit  14 

Exhibit  15 


Exhibit  16 
Exhibit  17 


UNCUSSIFIED 

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EXAMINATION 


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2  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   For  the  record,  this  is  the 

3  deposition  of  Richard  Pena,  pursuant  to  a  subpoena  issued  by 

4  the  Senate  Select  Committee  on  the  Iran-Contra  matter.   We 

5  are  present  here  today  jointly  with  the  representatives  of 

6  the  House  Select  Committee.   I  am  Tom  McGough.   I  am  the 

7  associate  counsel  with  the  Senate  Select  Committee.   Ken  Buck 

8  and  Tom  Fryman  are  with  the  House  Select  Committee.   Before 

9  we  put  the  witness  under  oath,  Mr.  Tompkins,  do  you  have 

10  anything  that  you  want  to  put  on  the  record? 

11  MR.  TOMPKINS:   Yes,  just  a  few  preliminary 

12  matters.   I  just  want  to  make  it  clear  for  the  record  that 

13  Mr.  Pena  is  here  to  cooperate  with  the  investigation,  but 

14  that  by  appearing  here  today  he  is  not  waiving  any  legal 

15  rights  or  privileges  he  may  have  with  respect  to  this  or  any 

16  other  investigation  or  legal  proceeding. 

17  The  second  point  is,  I  understand  we  will  have  a 

18  chance  to  review  the  transcript  of  today,  which  we  will  do. 

19  We  would  like  to  have  a  request  on  the  record  that  we  receive 

20  a  copy  of  the  transcript.  My  understanding  is  that  the 

21  Committee,  at  least  the  Senate  Committee,  has  a  policy  at 

22  this  point  of  not  releasing  the  transcript.  We  want  to  have 


'INCUSSIfM;: 


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.:uri;y  C 


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wm\m 


a  request  outstanding  to  get  the  transcript,  should  that 
policy  change. 

The  third  thing  is,  I  would  like  for  one  of  the 
counsel  to  state  on  the  record  the  nature  of  the 
confidentiality  of  this  deposition,  and  how  the  transcript 
will  be  protected  from  public  disclosure. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  can  take  care  of  that  for  the 
Senate  Committee  and  perhaps  defer  to  Tom  on  the  House.   The 
Senate  rules  provide  that  the  transcript  of  this  deposition 
and  the  documents  submitted  in  accordance  with  the  subpoenas 
are  maintained  as  confidential  Committee  records .   They  are 
maintained  in  files  marked  "Committee  sensitive."  They  will 
not  be  revealed  outside  the  context  of  the  Committee  absent  a 
majority  vote  of  the  Committee  itself.  Neither  the 
transcript  nor  information  contained  in  the  transcript. 

MR.  FRYMAN:   Under  the  House  rules,  the 
transcripts  of  the  deposition  and  materials  produced  in 
response  to  the  subpoena  are  treated  as  confidential 
materials,  and  they  are  not  publicly  available. 

I  would  also  note  for  the  record  that  there  has 
been  a  House  subpoena  also  served,  and  the  witness  is 
appearing  here  today  pursuant  to  the  House  subpoena  as  well 


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1  as  the  Senate  subpoena. 

2  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   With  that  in  mind,  Mr.  Pena,  I  am 

3  going  to  ask  you  some  questions  after  we  put  you  under  oath. 

4  If  at  any  point  you  don't  understand  a  question  or  you  want 

5  I   some  clarification,  just  stop  me  and  I  will  try  to  make  it  as 

6  clear  for  you  as  I  can. 

7  MR.  TOMPKINS:   Before  you  do  that,  can  I  ask  one 

8  other  question. 

9  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Sure. 

10  MR.  TOMPKINS:   Am  I  right,  when  you  tuMi  finished  'J^ 

11  your  questioning,  if  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Pena  some 

12  questions,  I  will  be  able  to  do  that? 

13  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Yes,  you  may,  that's  fine. 

14  MR.  TOMPKINS:   Thank  you. 

15  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Actually,  I  will  finish  my 

16  questions.  Ken  and  Tom  may  have  some  questions.   If  you  have 

17  anything  you  would  like  to  clarify,  please  feel  free.   Would 

18  the  reporter  please  swear  the  witness,  please. 

1 9  Whereupon , 

20  RICHARD  PENA 

21  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  first  been  duly  sworn, 

22  was  exiunined  and  testified  as  follows: 


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1  EXAMINATION 

2  I  BY   MR.    MC   GOUGH: 

3  Q    Mr.  Pens,  I  am  going  to  show  you  what  has  been 

4  ]  marked  as  Deposition  Exhibit  1.   I  will  provide  a  copy  to  you 

5  '  and  your  counsel.   It's  a  subpoena  from  the  Senate  Select 

6  Committee  requiring  your  appearance  on  May  4,  10:00  a.m.,  has 

7  attached  to  it  a  list  of  documents  or  a  list  of  documents 

8  I  which  we  request  that  you  bring. 

9  (Pena  Exhibit  1  identified.) 

10  MR.  HC  GOUGH:   As  I  understand  it,  I  believe, 

11  Mr.  Tompkins,  I  believe  you  accepted  service  of  this  subpoena 

12  for  Mr.  Pena.   I  an  not  sure  exactly  how  it  was  served. 

13  MR.  TOMPKINS:   That's  correct. 

14  I  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let  the  record  reflect  that  last 

15  week  we  received  via  Mr.  Tompkins  documents  in  compliance 

16  with  this  subpoena,  as  well  as  in  compliance  with  an  earlier 

17  subpoena  issued  to  Cassidy  &  Associates,  custodian  of  record, 

18  which  I  will  have  marked  as  Deposition  Exhibit  2. 

19  (Pena  Exhibit  2  identified.) 

20  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

21  Q    Mr.  Pena,  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  have  you 

22  produced  to  the  Committee  the  documents  responsive  to  this 


UNCUSSIFIED 

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subpoena  in  accordance  with  the  letter  from  Mr.  Tompkins  to 
the  Committee  that  accompanied  the  documents? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Could  you  tell  me  your  educational  background, 
please. 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 


B.A.,  Pan  American  University. 
I  am  sorry,  what  university? 

B.A.,  Pan  American  University,  Edinburg,  Texas. 
What  year  was  that? 

'78.   Attended  graduate  school  at  American 
University  from  1980  through  1984. 

Q    What  did  you  study  at  American? 
A    I  was  working  on  a  Ph.D.  in  international 
business. 

Q    Were  you  a  full-time  student  or  were  you  also 
employed? 

A    Part-time  student. 

Q    Where  were  you  employed,  let's  begin  1978,  where 
were  you  employed  — 

A    I  was  en  iiiiemt)luj|iueii»  in  '78,  worked  for  my 

i 
family.   I  came  to  Washington  in  1979,  went  to  work  for  the    j 

I 
House  of  Representatives,  the  doorkeeper's  office.   I  went  to  I 


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work  for  the  sergeant  at  arms  office  in  March  —  April  of 
1980,  and  worked  for  the  foreign  affairs  Coiranittee  August  of 
'82  through  October  of  '85. 

Q    Where  were  you  employed  after  October  of  '85? 

A    Cassidy  &  Associates. 

Q    What  is  Cassidy  &  Associates? 

A    It's  a  government  relations  consulting  firm. 

Q    Where  are  its  offices? 

A    655  15th  Street  Northwest,  Suite  1100,  Washington, 


D.C. 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 

A 

Q    What  is  your  official  position  with  Cassidy  & 
Associates? 

A    I  am  an  associat*. 

Q    Can  you  give  me  just  general  description  of  your 


What  is  your  business  telephone  number? 
347-0773,  area  code  is  202. 
What  is  your  home  address? 

Your  date  of  birth? 


Tour  Social  Security  Number. 


.  Inc. 


892 


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1  job,  your  work  for  them? 

2  A    We  are  a  government  relations  consulting  firm,  a 

3  lobbying  firm. 

4  Q    Do  you  specialize  in  any  particular  areas  for 

5  '  Cassidy  &  Associates? 

6  j        A    Foreign  aid,  foreign  policy,  international  trade. 

7  Q    How  many  associates  are  there  at  Cassidy  & 

8  Associates? 

9  A    There  are  seven  of  us  —  eight  of  us  maybe  — 

10  yes. 

11  Q    Gerry  Cassidy,  is  that  the  Cassidy  of  Cassidy  & 

12  associates? 

13  A    Yes. 

14  Q    Mr.  Pena,  I  want  to  direct  your  attention  to 

15  approximately  early  1986,  and  ask  you  if  at  or  about  that 

16  time  you  came  into  contact  or  had  any  contact  with  Richard 

17  Miller  of  International  Business  Communications? 

18  A    Tes . 

19  Q    How  long  have  you  known  Mr.  Miller? 

20  A    I  am  not  certain.   I  met  him  when  I  worked  on  the 

21  Hill.   Could  have  been  sometime  in  1984. 

22  Q    When  you  met  him,  was  he  then  affiliated  with 


llitASpD 

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1  International  Business  Cononunications? 

2  A  Yes. 

3  Q    Did  there  come  a  time  when  Mr.  Miller  —  when  you 

4  began  to  explore  the  possibility  of  working  with  Mr.  Miller 

5  in  a  government  consulting  role,  that  is  a  role,  a  lobbying 

6  role  or  a  public  relations  role,  when  Cassidy  &  Associates 

7  began  to  explore  that  possibility,  I  should  say? 

8  A    When? 

9  Q    Yes . 

10  A    It  was  late  January  or  early  February,  1986. 

11  Q    Can  you  tell  me  how  that  opportunity  presented 

12  itself  or  how  that  cane  about? 

13  A    He  called  me  and  asked  me  if  I  would  be  interested 

14  I  in  representing  a  group,  I  didn't  remember  if  he  gave  me  the 

15  group's  name  or  not,  who  would  be  working  for  the  $100 

16  million  aid  to  the  democratic  resistance  forces. 

17  Q    Did  you  follow  up  on  that? 

18  A    Yea. 

19  Q    Did  you  ultimately  find  out  who  that  group  was 

20  that  was  working  on  that  aid  package? 

21  A    Yes. 

22  Q         Who  was  that? 


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1  A    National  Endowment  for  Preservation  of  Liberty. 

2  1         Q    In  the  course  of  following  up  on  that,  did  you 

3  come  into  contact  with  a  man  by  the  name  of  Carl  Channell? 

4  A     Yes . 

5  Q    Can  you  tell  me  who  at  Cassidy  &  Associates  was 

6  involved  in  the  contacts  with  them.  National  Endowment  for 

7  the  Preservation  of  Liberty? 

8  A    For  the  lobbying  in  $100  million  in  aid? 

9  Q    Yes,  that's  right. 

10  A    Myself  and  Gerry  Cassidy. 

11  Q    What  did  Miller  or  Channell  or  NEPL  ask  you  to  do 

12  or  propose  to  do? 

13  A    They  asked  me  to  assist  them  in  securing  the  $100 

14  million  in  aid  by  lobbying  the  Congress. 

15  Q    Did  Cassidy  &  Associates  ultimately  consummate  an 

16  agreement  with  them  to  assist  in  that  regard? 

17  A    No. 

18  Q    Pardon  me? 

19  A    No . 

20  Q    Why  not? 

21  A    We  didn't  come  to  an  agreement  on  what  had  to  be 

22  done,  on  the  terms  of  how  we  felt  the  contract  that  we  would 


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1  ask  them  to  be  signed  with  us  should  be  fashioned. 

2  Q    Can  you  recall  what  the  disagreement  over  terms 

3  was? 

4  A    I  mentioned  the  fee  was  one,  and  who  would  develop 

5  the  correct  strategy  for  the  ultimate  SlOO  —  developmental 

6  strategy  for  the  $100  million.   Those  two  issues. 

7  Q    When  did  the  negotiations  cease? 

8  A    March,  April,  sometime  in  there. 

9  Q    Did  you  continue  to  have  contact  with  Mr.  Miller 

10  after  that  time? 

11  A    Yes. 

12  Q    Do  you  see  Mr.  Miller  purely  on  a  professional 

13  basis,  or  do  you  also  see  him  on  a  social  basis  as  well? 

14  A    Well,  it's  hard  to  differentiate,  because  I  have 

15  seen  him  at  receptions  that  we  have  been  invited  to.   I  don't 

16  know  if  you  consider  that  social  or  not.   But  I  dealt  with 

17  him  on  a  profesaional  basis,  mainly. 

18  Q    Did  there  come  a  time  when  you  proposed  or 

19  contacted  or  spoke  to  Mr.  Millar  about  the  possibility  of  one 

20  of  your  clients  providing  armaments  to  the  democratic 

21  resistance  forces  in  Nicaragua? 

22  A    Yes. 


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Q    Could  you  tell  me  how  that  came  about? 

MR.  TOMPKINS:  Just  for  clarification,  the 
question  was  one  of  your  clients,  meaning  a  client  of 
Mr.  Pena? 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:  Granted  there's  an  ambiguity  in 
there.  We  can  follow  up  on  that.  If  we  can  identify  the 
client,  we  will  ask  him  who  the  client  was. 

MR.  TOMPKINS:  The  problem  is  I  am  not  sure  it  was 
a  client.  It  was  a  firm,  but  he  can  clarify  that  if  you  give 
him  a  chance. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   All  right,  sure. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
Q    Can  you  tell  me  how  that  came  about? 
A    What,  what  Joe  just  talked  about  or  — 
Q    How  the  proposal  that  you  made  to  Miller  came 
about . 

A    We  were  at  a  reception  for  the  democratic 
resistance  forces,  I  think  right  after  they  had  —  during  the 
time  or  right  after  they  had  received  the  $100  million  vote 
in  the  House,  which  is  the  most  critical  vote.   It  had  not 
been  appropriated  —  it  would  have  been  appropriated  in  the 
CR,  and  in  a  conversation  that  I  had  with  him  at  that 


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1  reception,  I  talked  to  him  about  the  possibility  of  having 

2  the  democratic  resistance  forces  purchase  military  hardware. 

3  Q    Why  did  you  talk  to  Miller  about  that? 

4  A     I  felt  that  what  I  had  seen  of  Miller,  in  working 

5  with  the  group,  he  seemed  to  have  had  a  very  good  working 

6  !   relationship  with  them. 

7  Q    With  whom? 

8  A    With  the  democratic  resistance  forces. 

9  Q    Had  you  ever  discussed  with  Mr.  Miller,  prior  to 

10  that  reception,  where  the  Contras  were  purchasing  their 

11  weapons  or  how  they  were  purchasing  their  weapons? 

12  A    No. 

13  Q    Did  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  that  his 

14  contact  with  the  Contras  was  anything  more  than  a  public 

15  relations  contact? 

16  A    Not  at  that  time. 

17  Q    Did  you  come  to  an  understanding  —  did  you  come 

18  to  a  different  understanding  at  a  later  time? 

19  A    After  I  read  it  in  the  newspaper. 

20  Q    Tell  me  as  best  you  can  recollect  how  the 

21  conversation  between  you  and  Mr.  Miller  proceeded  at  that 

22  reception. 


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1  A    I  had  mentioned  to  him  that  $70  million  o£  aid, 

2  military  aid,  would  go  very  quickly,  would  be  quickly 

3  consumed,  if  it  was  purchased  at  U.S.  military  rates,  and 

4  that  there  were  other  suppliers  who  could  supply  the  same 

5  I  type  of  equipment  that  was  needed  for  much  less . 

6  Q    What  did  he  say? 

7  A    He  was  very  interested  in  it.   He  asked  me  to 

8  follow  up,  that  he  wanted  to  talk  about  it.   He  would  let  me 

9  know  if  something  could  be  done. 

10  Q    All  right.   How  did  you  leave  it  at  that 

11  reception?  Who  was  to  do  what? 

12  A    I  think  he  called  me  back  and  asked  for  a  letter 

13  to  be  sent  with  names  and  telexes  and  a  list  of  what  was 

14  available. 

15  Q    Did  you,  in  fact,  send  them  the  letter? 

16  A    Yes. 

17  Q    Between  the  time  you  first  broached  this  with 

18  Mr.  Miller  at  the  reception,  and  the  time  you  ultimately  sent 

19  that  letter,  you  have  identified  a  telephone  call  from 

20  Mr.  Miller.  Did  you  have  any  ~  to  the  best  of  your 

21  recollection,  did  you  have  any  other  conversations  or 

22  correspondence  with  him  regarding  that  deal? 


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A    We  may  have  talked  about  it  once  after  I  sent  him 
the  letter,  in  conjunction  with  other  things  we  were  talking 
about.   As  a  follow-up,  that  I  mentioned,  I  asked  about  it. 
I  never  heard  anything  else  from  him. 

Q    What  was  your  understanding  of  what  Mr.  Miller 
would  do  with  the  information  provided  to  him? 

A    He  told  me  that  he  would  talk  to  the  right  people 
in  the  administration. 

Q    Are  those  his  words? 

A    No,  I  am  paraphrasing.   He  said  he  would  discuss 
this  issue  with  the  people  in  administration  who  were 
involved,  and  the  logistics  of  the  military  assistance 
program  for  the  Contras . 

Q    Did  he  specify  those  people  any  further? 

A    No. 

Q    Did  he  indicate  how  he  should  be  compensated  for 
that? 

A    There  was  —  the  letter  I  sent,  there  was  a  spread 
on  what  the  manufacturers  would  charge  for  the  material,  and 
what  we  would  earn  on  it. 

Q    You  say  "what  we."   "We"  is  whom? 

A    Myself  and  Richard  Miller. 


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Q    Let  me  go  back  and  clarify  a  point  Mr.  Tompkins 
raised  earlier.   In  pursuing  this  transaction  with 
Mr.  Miller,  were  you  acting  as  an  employee  of  Cassidy  & 
Associates  or  were  you  acting  in  your  personal  capacity? 

A    I  would  have  to  say  that  I  saw  a  business 
opportunity  that  was  related  to  a  group  of  people  that  I  had 
known  in  Chile  and  in  Uruguay.   That  if  I  would  have  been 
helpful  to  them  in  bringing  them  business,  it  would  be 
helpful  for  me  in  the  future  to  do  other  work  for  them.   I 
was  working  on  this  with  the  Chileans  and  Uriguayans,  by 
myself,  and  what  I  know  of  them,  and  the  personal 
relationship  I  have  with  both  groups . 

Q    I  guess  my  question  is,  I  am  trying  to  break  down 
—  there  would  be  a  commission  on  these  sales,  is  that  fair 
to  say? 

A    Sure,  it  was  a  business  proposition. 

Q    Would  the  commission  be  payable  —  would  any  part 
of  that  commission  be  payable  to  Cassidy  &  Associates,  or 
would  the  commission  — 

A    No. 

Q    No  portion  of  it  would  have  been  payable? 

A    It  would  have  been  paid  to  me. 


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1  Q    Was  there  an  understanding  with  Mr.  Miller  that  a 

2  !   part  of  that  commission  would  be  shared  with  him? 

3  A     Yes. 

4  Q    How  did  that  understanding  come  about? 

5  A    He  asked  me  for  it.   We  discussed  the  possibility 

6  of  supplying  military  hardware.   He  asked  me  who,  how,  if 

7  these  people  were  credible  and  if  there  was  a  commission. 

8  Q    I  just  want  the  record  to  be  clear.   Was  he  the 

9  first  person  to  raise  the  possibility  of  a  commission  to  him 

10  for  the  sales?   If  you  recall. 

11  MR.  TOMPKINS:   That  question  is  kind  of 

12  ambiguous. 

13  THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  understand. 

14  i  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let  me  see  if  I  can  clarify  it. 

15  MR.  TOMPKINS:   Restate  it. 

16  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Yes. 

17  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

18  Q    I  think  the  implication  from  the  series  of 

19  questions  before  that  was  that  Mr.  Miller  initiated  the  idea 

20  of  him,  Mr.  Miller,  receiving  a  commission  for  his 

21  activities.   I  just  want  —  I  want  to  see  if  you  can 

22  recollect  that,  I  want  that  to  be  clear  in  the  record.   If 


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1  not,  then,  it  ought  to  be  qualified. 

2  Do  you  know  who  initiated  the  idea  of  Mr.  Miller 

3  I  receiving  conunission  for  the  services  he  might  render? 

4  MR.  TOMPKINS:   The  question  goes  (asjto^ between    3573 

5  !  Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Pena,  who  initiated  the  idea  of  a 

6  commission  for  Miller? 

7  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Correct,  that's  right. 

8  THE  WITNESS:   What  I  remember  of  the  conversation, 

9  at  the  reception,  was  that  this  could  be  arranged  with  a 

10  weapons  manufacturer,  and  from  that  there  was,  obviously 

11  there  was  going  to  be  a  commission  involved. 

12  Now,  I  think  it  was  obvious  to  both  of  us  that 

13  there  was  a  commission,  and  that  he  would  want  a  part  of  it. 

14  If  that's  what  you  are  asking  me. 

15  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

16  Q    That's  pretty  much  what  I  ena   asking.   I  just  want 

17  to  specify  whether  you  have  a  specific  recollection  that  he 

18  initiated  the  idea  of  a  commission  or  not. 

19  A    I  can't  remember  if  he  initiated  it.   But  I  think, 

20  again,  that  it  was  something,  that  there  was  a  business 

21  proposition,  where  profit  was  the  motive,  and  that  he  wanted 

22  to  share  in  the  profit. 


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1  Q     Did  he  indicate  at  some  time  to  you  what  corporate 

2  entity  he  wanted  to  act  through  in  order  to  consummate  this 

3  sale? 

4  A    Yes .   He  gave  me  a  name  of  a  group  that  was  an 

5  offshore  group. 

6  Q    Did  you  find  that  unusual? 

7  MR.  TOMPKINS:   What  unusual?   I  just  wanted 

8  clarification  about  what  the  question  went  to,  what  was 

9  unusual.   If  you  could  restate  it. 

10  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Sure. 

11  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

12  Q    My  question  is,  did  you  find  it  unusual  that  he 

13  wanted  you  to  put  the  deal  through  an  offshore  group? 

14  I        A    I  may  at  the  time,  I  don't  remember. 

15  Q    Did  you  ask  him  anything  about  the  entity  he  gave 

16  you? 

17  A    I  am  sure  I  did.   I  probably  asked  him,  who  is 

18  this.   I  don't  remember  exactly  what  I  asked  him. 

19  Q    Did  he  ask  you  not  to  use  his  name  or 

20  International  Business  Communications'  name? 

21  A    Again,  I  don't  remember.   He  may  have,  but  I  don't 
22 


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Q    What,  if  anything,  happened  as  a  result  of  your 
contact  with  Mr.  Miller  and  this  proposal?  What  happened  to 
the  proposal  ultimately? 

A    Nothing . 

Q    Did  you  ever  follow  up  with  Mr.  Miller  about  that 
proposal  after  you  sent  him  the  list? 

A    As  I  mentioned  earlier,  I  did.   When  I  talked  to 
him  on  the  telephone  about  something,  I  asked  him  where  we 
were  at  with  the  proposal. 

Q    What  did  he  say,  if  you  recall? 

A    He  was  looking  into  it  —  he  didn't  say  no.   I 
don ' t  remember  exactly  what  he  said . 

Q    After  that  one  attempt  to  follow  up,  did  you 
follow  up  again  with  it? 

A    I  may  have.   I  may  have,  because  we  talked  on  the 
telephone.   I  may  have  asked  him.   I  may  have  asked  him 
several  times,  but  I  don't  remember.   I  mean,  I  talked  to  him 
on  the  phone  several  times. 

Q    Have  you  had  any  —  did  you  have  any  other 
occasions  to  communicate  on  a  professional  level  with 
Mr.  Miller  other  than  the  NEPL  proposal  and  this  proposal  to 
sell  arras  or  to  sell  arms  to  the  Contras?   I  mean,  do  you 


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1  have  any  other  deals  or  business  relations  with  him? 

2  A    We  discussed,  with  the  National  Endowment  for 

3  Preservation  of  Liberty,  an  SDI  project.   We  discussed  with 

4  IBC  a  foreign  aid  project  for  international  banks. 

5  We  may  have  had  a  discussion  wi>»h  the  government 

6  of  Panama,  again  related  to  foreign  aid. 

7  Q    Let's  see  if  we  can  put  a  time  frame  on  any  of 

8  these.   The  SDI  discussions,  do  you  recall  when  that  would 

9  have  been? 
i 

10  I         A    That  would  have  been  through  National  Endowment 

11  for  Preservation  of  Liberty,  would  have  been  some  time  after 

12  we  talked  to  them  about  the  resistance  group.   I  don't 

13  remember;  March,  April. 

14  Q    All  right. 

15  A    Then,  after  that,  it  was  IBC  with  the  banks,  that 

16  would  have  been  auimner,  fall,  and  then  the  discussion  with 

17  Panama  would  have  been  late  fall,  early  winter,  '86. 

18  Q    First  of  all,  let's  identify  the  entities  that 

19  were  going  to  supply  the  arms,  according  to  your  proposal. 

20  You  mentioned  Chile.   What  was  the  name  of  the  company  in 

21  Chile? 

22  A         Industries  Cardoen. 


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1  Q    Might  have  to  spell  that  for  the  reporter.   And 

2  the  other  company  was  what? 

3  A    Monte-Paz  in  Uruguay. 

4  MR.  TOMPKINS:   Did  the  question  go  to  entities 

5  I  that  were  going  to  supply  weapons,  did  you  say? 

6  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   If  I  did,  what  I  want  to  do  is 

7  restate  it  to  include  the  companies  involved  in  the 

8  transaction  proposed  to  Mr.  Miller.   I  think  that's  probably 

9  I  a  little  more  accurate. 

10  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

11  Q    To  your  knowledge,  did  either  Cardoen  or  Monte-Paz 

12  actually  sell  any  materials  to  the  Contras? 

13  A     No. 

14  Q    Mr.  Pena,  let  me  take  you  through  some  of  the 

15  documents  that  have  been  supplied  to  us  pursuant  to  the 

16  subpoena.   Some  of  them,  as  you  know,  are  in  Spanish.   I  am 

17  going  to  ask  you,  if  you  could,  to  give  us  some 

18  translations.   But  some  are  also  in  English,  which  we  ought 

19  to  be  able  to  do  fairly  expeditiously.   Let's  have  this 

20  marked  as  Deposition  Exhibit  3. 

21  (Pena  Exhibit  3  identified.) 
22 


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1  BY   MR.    MC   GOUGH: 

2  Q    Do  you  recognize  this  exhibit? 

3  A    Yes . 

4  Q    What  is  it? 

5  A     It's  a  memo  to  Gerry  Cassidy  from  my  legislative 

6  assistant,  letting  him  know  that  I  was  in  Chile,  talking  to 

7  ■  Cardoen  about  the  development  of  their  attack  helicopter  for 

8  Third  World  use. 

9  Q    How  long  have  you  had  a  relationship  with  Cardoen 

10  in  reference  to  this?   I  mean,  if  this  memorandum  helps  you 

11  place  the  date? 

12  A    I  met  the  Cardoen  people  who  run  Cardoen  socially 

13  several  years  ago,  I  guess  in  '84  somewhere,  I  was  playing 

14  I  polo  in  Chile,  and  met  them  at  that  time. 

15  Q    When  did  you  first  approach  them  about  engaging  in 

16  a  business  transaction? 

17  A    Probably  April  16.   In  April  of  '86,  when  I  was  in 

18  Chile. 

19  Q    So  this  memorandum  appears  to  be  written  at 

20  approximately  the  time  that  you  first  began  business  dealings 

21  with  Cardoen? 

22  A    Yes. 


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1  Q    I  notice  there  that  it  refers  to  helicopters. 

2  A    Yes . 

3  Q    Your  ultimate  proposal  to  Mr.  Miller  involved 

4  other  armaments,  other  than  helicopters.   Can  you  tell  me 

5  when  you  began  to  discuss  with  Cardoen  the  possibility  of 

6  supplying  small  arms  or  that  sort  of  thing  to  the  Contras? 

7  A    That's  two  different  things. 

8  MR.  TOMPKINS:   May  we  go  off  the  record? 

9  '  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Yes. 

10  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

11  THE  WITNESS:   Let  me  see  if  I  can  put  this  in  the 

12  correct  context.   This  is  a  separate  issue  from  the  small 

13  arms. 

14  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

15  Q    I  understand  that.   I  guess  «^at  I  am  saying  is 

16  what  I  want  to  get  is  the  evolution  of  the  relationship. 

17  A    Let  me  give  you  an  idea  of  what  Cardoen  is. 

18  Q    All  right. 

19  A    Cardoen  is  major  weapons  producer.  Third  World 

20  weapons  producer.   It  is  currently  developing  an  attack 

21  helicopter  for  the  Third  World.   I  had  talked  to  them  about 

22  the  development  of  this  helicopter  for  use  in  Central 


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1  America,  which  they  were  very  aware  of.   They  knew  that  it 

2  was  going  to  be  impossible  to  spend  research  and  development 

3  I   funds  on  that  helicopter  and  then  sell  it  to  Central  American 

4  countries,  African  countries.  Middle  Eastern  countries,  and 

5  be  able  to  recoup  their  expense.   So  they  asked  me  if  there 

6  was  a  way  to  have  the  U.S.  military  establishment  purchase 

7  the  helicopter  for  the  Army  for  then  use  in  the  military 

8  i   assistance  program  or  the  FMS  program,  which  is  foreign 

9  military  sales.   That's  what  this  was  about. 

10  Q    All  right. 

11  A    At  the  same  time,  Cardoen  is  a  major  —  probably 

12  the  second  largest  producer  of  cluster  bombs,  hand  grenades, 

13  Claymore  mines.   It  produces  tanks,  wheel  tanks,  on-track 

14  tanks,  wheel  tanks,  produces  some  small  ammunitions  for  5.56 

15  and  7.62  rounds. 

16  Q    Going  back  to  my  question,  was  it  on  this  initial 

17  trip  to  Chile  that  you  discussed  with  Cardoen  not  only  the 

18  helicopter  deal  but  also  the  provision  of  smaller  arms  —  of 

19  the  other  types  of  armaments? 

20  A    No. 

21  Q    How  did  that  evolve? 

22  A    During  the  summer  of  '86,  when  the  authorization 


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1  and  the  Intelligence  Act  was  passed,  and  the  $100  million  was 

2  available,  after  that  I  sent  Luis  Soimners  a  telex  asking  him 

3  what  he  thought  of  their  ability  to  supply  military  weapons 

4  for  the  democratic  resistance  forces. 

5  Q    Who  is  Mr.  Sommers? 

6  A    He  is  their  marketing  manager,  international 

7  marketing  manager. 

8  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  have  this  marked  as  Exhibit 

9  2,  if  we  do  —  I  am  sorry,  Exhibit  4. 

10  (Pena  Exhibit  4  identified.) 

11  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGHi 

12  Q    I  apologize  for  the  copy,  but  it's  pretty  accurate 

13  from  the  copy  we. received.   This  appears  to  be  a  telex  dated 

14  on  or  about  June  9  of  '86  from  you  to  Mr.  Sommers;  is  that 

15  fair  to  say? 

16  A    Uh-huh. 

17  Q    Can  you  tell  me,  this  is  the  one  that  we  have  not 

18  been  able  to  read  with  any  certainty,  but  can  you  tell  me 

19  what  this  regarded? 

20  A    That  telex  is  in  reaction  to  this,  that  when  the 

21  Cardoen  people  and  I  started  discussions,  I  said  I  would  look 

22  into  the  MAP  and  FMS  programs  to  see  if  there  was  an 


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opportunity  to  develop  a  strategy  that  could  be  implemented 
in  Congress  for  the  authorization  of  appropriations  of  funds 
for  the  purchase  of  Third  World  attack  helicopters  as  they 
were  developing. 

Q    Might  be  a  little  bit  time-consuming,  but  I  think 
it's  worth  doing.   Could  you  give  us  a  translation  of  each  of 
the  three  paragraphs? 

A     I  can't  read  it.   It's  basically  saying  thank  you 
very  much  for  the  meeting  we  had.   Second  paragraph  is 
basically  looking  into  the  defense  —  our  U.S.  military 
defense  groups  to  see  what  is  competitive  in  helicopters;  and 
the  third  paragraph  is  Cardoen  could  probably  be  a  supplier 
of  Third  World  military  hardvtare  if  we  could  develop  the 
strategy  for  that  end. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   This  is  Exhibit  5. 

(Pena  Exhibit  5  identified.) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGHt 

Q         Could  you  identify  trtiat  has  been  marked  as 
Deposition  Exhibit  5,  please. 

A    It's  another  telex  to  Luis  Sommers  from  myself 
informing  him  that  the  House  of  Representatives  had  approved 
the  $100  million  in  aid  to  the  democratic  resistance  forces, 


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1  of  which  $70  million  would  be  used  for  military  assistance. 

2  Q    It  includes  certain  priorities,  does  it  not,  as 

3  to  — 

4  A    What,  at  that  time,  was  considered  priorities  by 

5  I  the  administration. 

6  Q    What  were  those  priorities? 

7  A    Shoulder-fired  missiles,  RPG-7,  grenade  launchers, 

8  rifles,  grenades,  radios. 

9  Q    What  was  your  source  for  the  administration's 

10  priorities  regarding  armaments? 

11  A    The  Washington  Post  and  the  New  York  Times. 

12  Q    At  the  time  you  drafted  this  telex,  had  you  had 

13  any  direct  contact  with  the  Contras  or  with  Mr.  Miller 

14  regarding  this  issue? 

15  A    It  was  all  in  the  same  time  frame.   I  don't 

16  remember  exact  dates,  but  it  could  have  been  parallel,  could 

17  have  been  a  couple  of  days  after. 

18  Q    Did  you  discuss  these  priorities  with  Mr.  Miller? 

19  A    What  do  you  mean? 

20  Q    The  telex  refers  to  priority  items  from  the  — 

21  according  to  the  administration.   You  indicated  you  got  that 

22  information  from  the  Washington  Post  or  the  New  York  Times. 


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1  Did  you  discuss  those  priorities  or  did  Mr.  Miller 

2  give  you  any  inforroation  regarding  those  priorities? 

3  A    Mr.  Miller  didn't  give  me  any  information  on 

4  military  hardware. 

5  Q    The  next  paragraph  refers,  I  believe,  to  some 

6  concern  about  the  direct  involvement  of  the  Department  of 

7  Defense  — 

8  A    Yes . 

9  Q    — in  the  administration  of  the  program. 

10  A    Yes. 

11  Q    What  was  your  source  for  that  information? 

12  A    When  I  worked  on  the  Hill,  the  Department  of 

13  Defense  was  always  concerned  about  their  role  in  the 

14  democratic  resistance  forces  program,  that  comes  from  me. 

15  Q    Would  you  give  us  a  translation  of  —  there  is 

16  paragraph  number  2,  please. 

17  A    He  probably  asked  me  for  something  in  Chile  that  I 

18  had  not  been  able  to  get  him  the  information. 

19  Q    Can  you  give  us  a  translation  of  that? 

20  A    That's  what  it  is. 

21  MR.  TOMPKINS:   I  think  he  would  like  just  a 

22  paraphrase. 


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1  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

2  Q    Yes,  could  you  give  me  a  little  more. 

3  A    I  said  " I  am  sorry  I  haven't  had  the  opportunity 

4  to  send  you  the  information  regarding  our  conversation  in 

5  •       Chile.   I  have  been  out  of  town  and  I  have  been  unable  to 

6  prepare  an  analysis  as  you  wanted,  but  I  will  try  to  do  it 

7  sometime  in  the  near  future." 

8  Q    That  would  refer  up  to  item  2  in  the  caption; 

9  would  it  not? 

10  A    Item  2. 

11  Q    If  you  look  up  in  the  "re"  at  the  very  top. 

12  A    Right. 

13  Q    What  is  the  translation  of  that  item? 

14  A    "Information  regarding  defense." 

15  Q    So  whatever  the  conversation  was  that  you  had  with 

16  Mr.  Sommers  — 

17  A    It  would  probably  have  to  do  with  the  MAP  and  FMS 

18  programs  and  how  to  develop  the  strategy  for  their  attack 

19  helicopter. 

20  Q    The  third  paragraph  refers,  does  it  not,  to  a 

21  meeting  with  Bell  Helicopters? 

22  A    Yes. 


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1  Q    What  was  the  purpose  of  that  meeting? 

2  A    Bell  Helicopters  is  very  interested  in  what 

3  I  Cardoen  is  doing.   They  wanted  to  know  what  I  had  found  out, 

4  I  what  Cardoen  was  doing  on  their  attack  helicopter. 

5  Q    Just  so  the  record  is  clear,  if  you  look  at  the 

6  second  page,  I  believe- that  telex  was  delivered  on  or  about 

7  July  10  of  '86;  is  that  right? 

i 

8  A    Uh-huh. 

9  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  mark  this  as  the  next 

10  exhibit. 

11  (Pena  Exhibit  6  identified.) 

12  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

13  Q    Looking  at  Deposition  Exhibit  6,  Mr.  Pena,  do  you 

14  I  recognize  this  telex? 

15  A    It's  a  telex  from  Luis  Sommers  to  me. 

16  Q    It's  dated  July  11,  1986,  I  believe? 

17  A    It's  July  14,  1986. 

18  Q    I  was  looking  at  the  —  maybe  two  dates  on  it. 

19  A    I  am  looking  at  July  14  — 

20  Q         I  am   looking  at  the  one  below  your  name  on  the 

21  telex,  July  14,  1986.   Could  you  give  us  a  translation  of 

22  that  telex,  please. 


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1  A    He  said,  "Even  though  it's  difficult  now  for  you, 

2  it's  not  impossible  to  try  to  put  some  of  our  products  within 

3  the  SlOO  million  that  are  part  of  the  defense  for  the 

4  anti-Sandinista  group.   Even  though  it's  a  small  quantity,  it 

5  I  would  help  us  in  our  future  business  negotiations .   When  you 

6  have  time  to  give  me  the  memo,  I  would  appreciate  having  it. 

7  We  continue  to  want  to  work  together  on  this  issue.   We  are 

8  very  interested  with  the  Bell  Helicopter  meeting,  and  we 

9  would  lilce  to  know  more  about  it." 

10  Q    If  I  could  just  refer  to  it  for  a  moment,  the  memo 

11  refers  to,  or  paragraph  1  opens  up,  something  to  the  effect 

12  of  while  difficult  or  while  there  may  be  some  difficulty, 

13  it's  not  impossible  for  you.   What  did  you  understand  that  to 

14  refer  to? 

15  A    It's  not  impossible  to  get  their  products 

16  purchased  by  the  democratic  resistance  forces. 

17  Q    What  was  he  referring  to  regarding  the  difficulty? 

18  A    I  imagine  he  felt  that  it  was  going  to  be 

19  difficult. 

20  Q    Had  you  discussed  any  obstacles  with  him  that  you 

21  can  recall? 

22  A    You  have  to  realize  also  that  this  man  is  a  man 


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1  who  deals  with  military  hardware  every  day,  and  he  knows  how 

2  i   difficult  it  is  to  try  to  sell  military  hardware  when  a 

3  government  is  involved  in  giving  their  own  products  to  a 

4  group.   That  means  your  prices  have  to  be  lower,  there's  a 

5  lot  of  competition  involved. 

6  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  mark  this  Exhibit  7. 

7  (Pena  Exhibit  7  identified.) 

8  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

9  Q    This  is  a  telex,  is  it  not,  dated  July  23,  1986, 

10  from  you  to  Mr.  Sommers,  responding  to  his  telex  of  July  147 

11  A    No.   Well,  I  don't  think  it's  a  response  to  his 

12  telex.   The' telex  says  that  I  Just  had  a  meeting  with  a  group 

13  that  was  interested  in  purchasing  military  hardware  from 

14  I   Cardoen. 

15  Q    Does  it  say  you  just  had  or  are  about  to  have  a 

16  meeting  with  him? 

17  .     A    I  Just  had. 

18  Q    That  is  the  first  sentence.  What  is  the  balance 

19  of  the  telex  there? 

20  A    I  asked  him  for  a  list  as  soon  as  possible. 

21  Q    A  list  of  what? 

22  A    Of  military  hardware  they  had  available  and  the 


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1  price. 

2  Q     What  is  the  group  that  is  referred  to  here  with 

3  whom  —  to  what  meeting  does  that  refer? 

4  A     It  would  probably  be  that  I  had  the  discussion 

5  I  with  Rich  Miller,  which  is  as  best  as  I  can  remember. 

6  1         Q    So  if  that  is,  in  fact,  the  reference  you  were 

7  making,  the  meeting  would  have  taken  place  sometime  prior  to 

8  July  23  of  '86? 

9  A    It  could  have  been  taken  place  that  day. 

10  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Would  you  mark  this  as  Exhibit  8. 

11  (Pena  Exhibit  8  identified.) 

12  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

13  Q    Could  you  identify  what  has  been  marked  as  Exhibit 

14  8,  please. 

15  A    It's  a  memo  from  me,  to  Adolpho  Calero  and  Bosco 

16  Mateunoros. 

17  Q    It's  a  price  list  of  — 

18  A    Military  hardware  that  was  available  from 

19  Cardoen. 

20  Q    Had  you  ever  met,  up  to  this  point,  Mr.  Calero  or 

21  Matamoros? 

22  A  Yes. 


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Q    In  what  context? 

A    What  do  you  mean  what  context? 

Q    How  had  you  met  them? 

A    I  met  Calero  when  I  was  in  Nicaragua,  I  don't 
remember,  '82,  when  he  was  still  the  head  of  Coca-Cola  in 
Nicaragua.   I  met  Bosco  Matamoros  right  after  that  time, 
probably,  in  that  summer  of  '82. 

Q    Did  you  present  this  list  directly  to  them? 

A    I  gave  the  list  to  Bosco  to  give  it  to  Adolpho. 

Q    Would  you  have  done  that  on  or  about  August  12? 

A    Probably  that  same  day. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  discussions  with  Mr.  Matamoros 
about  the  list? 

A    Sure . 

Q    What  I  want  to  know  is  how  this  came  about.   We 
have  talked  about  how  you  dealt  with  Mr.  Miller,  but  how  did 
it  come  about? 

A    Again,  it  was  a  business  deal.   It  was  an 
opportunity,  and  I  probably  felt  that  I  wasn't  getting  much 
response  from  IBC  and  Mr.  Miller,  and  I  watrt  to  Bosco 
Matamoros  and  Calero  to  see  if  they  had  heard  anything  about 
this  opportunity. 


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1  Q    Could  you  have  presented  this  to  Mr.  Calero  and 

2  Mr.  Matamoros  simultaneously  --  could  you  have  presented  it 

3  to  Mr.  Calero  and  Mr.  Matamoros  simultaneously  to  the  time 

4  you  presented  it  to  Mr.  Miller? 

5  A    No.   I  gave  it  to  them  after  —  after  Rich  Miller 

6  asked  me  to  send  it  to  World  Counselors,  or  whatever.   I 

7  I  think  that  was  it. 

8  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Mark  Exhibit  9,  please. 

9  (Pena  Exhibit  9  identified.) 

10  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

11  Q    I  will  show  you  what  has  been  marked  as  Exhibit  9, 

12  a  letter  dated  August  15,  1986,  to  World  Affairs  Counselors, 

13  Inc.,  from  Richard  Pena.   Attached  is  a  price  list 

14  substantively  identical  to  the  price  list  attached  to  or 

15  reflected  on  Exhibit  8. 

16  Now,  is  this  Exhibit  9  the  letter  that  you  sent  to 

17  Mr.  Miller  proposing  that  transaction? 

18  A    Yes,  it  is. 

19  Q    I  believe  it's  dated  August  15,  1986;  is  that 

20  right? 

21  A    That's  correct. 

22  Q    Which  would  be  three  days  after  the  memorandum  to 


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Mr.  Calero  and  Mr.  Matamoros  dated  August  12,  1986;  is  that 
right? 

A    That ' s  correct . 

Q    Can  you  explain,  perhaps,  why  the  letter  to 
Mr.  Miller  is  dated  after  the  memo  to  Mr.  Calero  and 
Mr.  Matamoros? 

A    It  may  have  taken  me  a  couple  of  days  to  write  the 
letter,  I  don't  know. 


right? 


To  write  which  letter? 

To  write  this  letter. 

That  is  Exhibit  9,  the  August  15  letter;  is  that 


7es. 


A 

Q    I  believe  you  said  earlier  that  you  presented  the 
list  to  Mr.  Calero  and  Mr.  Matamoros,  only  after  you  had 
presented  the  deal  to  Richard  Miller? 

A    Yes.   I  talked,  if  you  recall,  I  talked  to  Miller 
about  this  at  a  reception.   Then  I  took  days  to  get 

w 

X  everything  put  together.   So  Mr.  Miller  knew  about  this 
N  before  I  imilieii  nil  Calero  and  Bosco  Matamoros.   That's  what 
I  aro  referring  to. 

Q    Do  you  know  if  you  provided  Mr.  Miller  with  this 


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1  information,  that  is  the  information  reflected  in  the  August 

2  15  letter,  prior  to  August  15? 

3  A    I  don't  recall  that  I  did.   We  may  have  talked 

4  about  it  by  telephone.   But  I  don't  recall  that  I  did. 

5  Q    Now,  this  letter  is  addressed  —  that  is,  Exhibit 

6  9  is  addressed  to  World  Affairs  Counselors  in  Georgetown, 

7  Grand  Cayman  Island.   Did  you,  in  fact,  mail  this  to  the 

8  Grand  Caymans? 

9  A    I  don't  remember.   I  may  have  mailed  it,  and  I  may 

10  have  sent  it  over  by  messenger  to  Rich  Miller. 

11  Q    I  notice  on  there  that  Mr.  Miller  is  not  reflected 

12  as  an  addressee  on  the  letter. 

13  A    That's  correct. 

14  Q    Was  that  at  his  request  or  was  that  your  own? 

15  A    I  imagine  it  was  at  his  request  if  I  sent  it  to 

16  "Dear  Sirs. " 

17  Q    It  reflects  in  the  last  paragraph,  "in  accordance 

18  with  our  previous  discussions,'  and  that's  a  plural  word. 

19  Would  that  have  been  a  discussion  at  the  party  and  the 

20  reception  —  over  the  telephone,  as  best  you  can  imagine? 

21  A    I  would  imagine. 

22  Q    It  says,  in  accordance  with  those  previous 


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1  I  discussions,  we  anticipate  that  any  commissions  from  the  sale 

2  of  the  product  will  be  divided  equally  among  the  corporations 

3  involved  in  the  placement  of  that  product. 

4  Do  you  recall  now  discussing  commissions  with 

5  1  Mr.  Miller  in  either  of  those  conversations?   Does  that 

6  refresh  your  recollection.   Does  that  give  you  any  more 

7  specificity  on  your  discussions  of  commissions  with  him? 

8  A    No,  we  discussed  that.   Again,  as  I  told  you,  we 

9  I  discussed  that  as  part  of  our  discussion  at  the  reception. 

I 

10  Q    Do  you  recall,  was  the  division  of  commissions  to 

11  be  50/50,  or  do  you  recall  if  you  got  to  that  point? 

12  A    We  would  split  them  equally.   So  I  guess  that 

13  -would  have  been  50/50.   I  do  not  recall  saying  50  percent. 

14  Q    You  refer  to  corporations,  plural,  one  of  those 

15  corporations  obviously  would  have  been  World  Affairs 

16  Counselors,  Inc.;  is  that  a  fair  statement? 

17  A    I  would  imagine. 

18  Q    Do  you  know  what  the  other  corporation  or 

19  corporations  would  have  been? 

20  A    Well,  Cardoen  and  Monte-Paz.   Cardoen  and 

21  Monte-Paz  has  to  be  paid. 

22  Q    Would  they  be  paid  a  commission  or  would  they  be 


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1  j  paid   — 

2  :  A  No. 

I 

I 

3  i         Q    You  are  saying  here,  I  don't  want  to  confuse  you. 

4  i  You  are  saying  that  your  commissions  are  going  to  be  split 

5  i  equally  among  corporations.   I  want  to  deteirmine  what 

6  !  corporations  were  dividing  the  commissions. 

7  I         A    Well,  I  have  no  idea.   I  don't  know  whether  I 

8  i  wanted  to  make  it  sound  right  the  way  I  drafted  the  letter. 

9  I  I  really  don't  recall. 
i 

10  I         Q    Did  you  keep  a  copy  of  this  letter? 

11  j        A    No,  I  didn't. 

12  !         Q    Why  not? 

13  A    Well,  bad  staff  work.   It  got  lost  either  in  the 

14  I  machine  or  we  didn't  keep  it  in  the  file. 

15  Q    Did  you  or  anyone  at  Cassidy  &  Associates  make  a 

16  I  conscious  decision  not  to  keep  a  copy  of  this? 

17  A    No.   That  was  my  fault. 

18  MR.  TOMPKINS:   Just  so  your  question  and  answer  is 

19  clear,  the  fact  is  that  this  letter  was  not  in  the  files  of 

20  Cassidy  &  Associates  or  Mr.  Pena  when  we  looked  for  documents 

21  responsive  to  the  subpoena.   But  that's  not  to  say  that  the 

22  document  wasn't  there  for  some  period  of  time  before  it  was 


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1  destroyed  or  whatever.   The  implication  of  your  question  is 

2  that  somebody  may  have  destroyed  it  immediately  or  didn't 

3  keep  a  copy  at  the  time,  but  that's  not\my  understanding  is    jjfr^ 

4  that  that  is  not  necessarily  the  case. 

5  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That's  what  I  am  trying  to  clear 

6  !  up.   It's  not  an  implication  as  to  whether  that  occurred,  was 

7  I  there  a  conscious  decision  made  to  not  keep  a  copy  or 

8  eliminate  the  copy.   So  the  answer  to  the  question  is  no  on 

9  that,  I  think. 

10  MR.  TOMPKINS:   The  answer  to  the  question  is  no. 

11  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGHi 

12  Q    Let  me  ask  the  question  again.   Was  there  a 

13  conscious  decision  made  by  anyone,  to  your  knowledge,  not  to 

14  I  keep  a  copy  of  this  letter  or  to  destroy  any  copies  existing? 

15  A    No. 

16  Q    Mr.  Pena,  do  you  have  a  personal  corporation 

17  through  which  you  do  business  or  otherwise? 

18  A    No. 

19  Q    Let  me  line  Exhibit  9  up  against  Exhibit  8.   It 

20  would  appear,  correct  me  if  I  am  wrong,  that  on  August  12  you 

21  submitted  a  price  list  directly  to  Calero  and  Matamoros .   On 

22  August  15  you  submitted  a  price  list  to  Mr.  Miller. 


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1  If  I  am  again  correct,  you  were  proposing  the  idea 

2  of  submitting  it  to  Kr.  Miller  was  to  have  the  Contras 

3  purchase  those  arms;  is  that  correct? 

4  A     Yes. 

5  1         Q    On  August  15,  you  were  promising  Mr.  Miller  half 

6  of  any  commission  on  arms  sold  to  the  Contras;  is  that  also 

7  correct? 

8  A    Correct. 

9  Q    How  were  you  going  to  be  able  to  determine  whether 

10  any  sales  from  the  Contras  resulted  from  your  letter  of 

11  August  15  to  Mr.  Miller  or  from  your  memorandum  of  August  12 

12  directly  to  Mr.  Calero  and  Mr.  Matamoros? 

13  A    I  was  expecting  to  hear  back  from  Rich  Miller  if 

14  there  was  going  to  be  any  interest  in  this,  and  to  Calero,  he 

15  would  have  also  gotten  back  to  me  and  told  me  if  there  was 

16  interest  in  it.   So  I  would  have  been  able  to  know  who  was 

17  ctoing  to  be  involved. 

18  Q    In  other  words,  Mr.  Miller  was  to  act  as  a  conduit 

19  for  the  return  information  as  well.   That  is,  an  order  or 

20  something.   Let's  say  there  was  an  order  for  eight  cluster 

21  bombs.   Did  you  envision  that  order  as  coming  back  to  you 

22  through  Mr.  Miller? 


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1  A    No,  no,  not  the  order.   I  would  imagine  they  would 

2  I   have  gotten  back  to  me  if  they  were  interested.   The  way  the 

3  letter  is  written  is  they  were  going  to  —  Monte-Paz  and 

4  Cardoen,  the  persons  who  to  contact,  but  I  know  people  in 

5  !   both  places. 

6  Q    I  guess  my  question  —  perhaps  it's  just  confusion 

7  on  my  part.   But  normally,  when  you  are  dealing  —  let's  move 

8  out  of  the  arms  area .   But  when  one  deals  with  a 

9  manufacturing  representative  or  something  like  that,  where  a 

10  commission  is  payable  for  placement  of  an  order,  it  would  be 

11  unusual  for  the  manufacturer  to  contact  the  customer  directly 

12  and  propose  a  sale,  because  that  would  bypass  the 

13  manufacturer's  rep.   It  appears  to  me  you  have  offered 

14  Mr.  Miller  a  commission  and  then  also  contacted  the  ultimate 

15  purchaser  directly  in  a  way  that  might  at  least  confuse  who 

16  was  entitled  to  a  commission  and  who  wasn't.   Did  you  think 

17  about  that  at  all  when  you  did  this? 

18  A    No.   It  was,  again,  a  business  proposition.   I  was 

19  trying  to  get  to  the  people  who  were  involved  in  this,  and  I 

20  contacted  both  groups. 

21  Q    At  that  time,  did  you  have  any  understanding  how 

22  the  commission  would  be  calculated  or  how  it  would  be  paid? 


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1  A    We  hadn't  even  gotten  to  that  point.   What  I 

2  wanted  to  do  was  to  get  to  see  if  they  were  going  to  be 

3  interested,  and  to  contact  Monte-Paz  and  Cardoen. 

4  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  have  this  marked  as  Exhibit 

5  I  10. 
1 

6  (Pena  Exhibit  10  identified.) 

7  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

8  Q    Can  you  tell  me  what  this  is,  Exhibit  10,  that 

9  is. 

10  A    This  is  a  telex  that  I  sent  to  Luis  Sommers 

11  regarding  what  I  had  offered  to  World  Counselors,  Rich  Miller 

12  and  Adolpho  Calero  and  Bosco  Hatamoros. 

13  Q    It  would  have  gone  out  approximately  August  20  of 

14  '86,  is  that  the  date  at  the  bottom? 

15  A    Yea. 

16  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  have  this  marked  as  Exhibit 

17  11. 

18  (Pena  Exhibit  11  identified.) 

19  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

20  Q    I  have  just  handed  you  what  has  been  marked  as 

21  Exhibit  11.   Could  you  tell  me  what  that  is. 

22  A    It's  a  telex  from  Luis  Sommers  to  me  telling  me 


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that  he  received  the  telex  I  had  sent  him,  and  the  prices  on 
it,  mentioned  that  the  price  is  maybe  a  little  bit  high,  but 
it's  still  possible  to  sell  them,  and  he  feared  that  that  was 
where  the  commissions  would  come  from. 

Q    Let's  take  it  sentence  by  sentence.   Could  you 
translate  the  first  sentence  for  me,  please. 

A    He  says  he  is  interested  in  knowing  what  our 
progress  and  possibilities  are  with  the  conversations  with 
the  people  in  Washington. 

Q    I  believe  it's  the  "interested  party  in 
Washington"? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Is  that  a  fair  paraphrase?   All  right.   Let's 
translate  the  next  two  sentences,  please. 

A    He  says  we  have  the  prices  clear  that  you  have 
quoted,  even  though  they  are  somewhat  high,  they  could  work 
like  that.   There's  no  doubt  that  the  margins  give  a 
possibility  for  whatever  commissions  are  needed. 

Q    Is  the  word  "commissions"? 

A    No,  it's  not  —  "nadios"  for  them  is 
"commission."   Do  you  speak  Spanish? 

Q    I  don't,  but  is  the  word  "pago  extraordinario"  — 


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I  don't,  but  is  that  a  commission  or  a  bribe  or  a  grease 
payment? 

A    No,  to  me,  pago  extraordinario  to  me  wn»  the 
commission*  from  the  price  that  came  from  here.   I  never  got 
anything  from  Sommers  asking  me  for  a  psMR  or  a  grease 


payment,  as  you  stated. 

Q    So  that  was  you  that  understood  that  word  to  refer 
to  commissions? 
A    Yes. 

Q    Next  two  sentences? 

A    It  says  we  ask  you  to  keep  us  informed,  we  are 
prepared  to  demonstrate  or  send  technical  information  if 
necessary. 

Q    And  the  date  of  that  telex  would  be  September  9  -- 
September  4 . 
September  4  — 

I  have  a  4  September  '86  on  the  bottom. 
All  right,  I  was  looking  at  the  top,  where  it  says 
2  September  '86.   But  at  least  somewhere  in  that  2nd,  3rd  or 
4th  of  September. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  have  this  marked  as  Exhibit 
12. 


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1  (Pena  Exhibit  12  identified.) 

2  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

3  Q    All  right.   You  have  been  handed  what  has  been 

4  marked  as  Exhibit  12.   Could  you  identify  it,  please.   Can 

5  1  you  tell  me  what  Exhibit  12  is. 

6  A     It's  a  memo  from  me  to  Gerry  Cassidy  on  potential 

7  clients  that  I  was  working  on. 

8  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Could  you  mark  this  as  Exhibit  12. 

J 

9  I  think  the  one  you  mark  has  notes  on  it,  so  I  will  scratch 

10  it  out. 

11  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

12  Q    If  you  would  turn  to  the  second  and  third  page, 

13  second  page  first,  but  it  spilled  over  to  the  third  page  of 

14  I  that  memorandum.   There  is  a  reference  to  attempting  to 

15  broker  some  of  Cardoen's  products  for  use  by  Adolpho  Calero. 

16  A    That's  correct. 

17  Q    That  is  the  transaction  that  you  were  proposing 

18  with  Mr.  Miller? 

19  A    And  Adolpho  Calero. 

20  Q    It  says  you  have  also  discussed  assisting  them  ii^. 

!  '" 

21  the  potential  joint  ventures  or  cow«ab  production  agreements. 

22  A    That's  correct. 


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Q    Could  you  elaborate  on  those? 

A    Here  we  go  back  again  to  one  issue  and  another 
issue,  cotgmm^   production  and  development  of  helicopters  for 
the  program.   They  want  to  take  it  out  of  Chile,  go  to 
Africa,  go  to  the  Middle  East,  is  what  I  was  referring  to 
there . 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  mark  this  as  Exhibit  13. 

(Pena  Exhibit  13  identified.) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

Q    I  have  put  a  red  circle  around  a  date  on  that  one, 
but  you  can  ignore  that. 

This  is  a  telex  delivered,  at  the  bottom, 
September  19,  1986,  from  you  to  Mr.  Sommers,  is  it  not? 

A    That ' s  correct . 

Q    Could  you  give  us  a  translation  of  this  telex  as 
well? 

A    I  had  returned  from  Central  America,  I  told  him  in 
Central  America  I  had  met  people  who  I  had  talked  about  in 
April  who  would  be  interested  in  establishing  a  military 
weapons  complex.   I  told  him  that  I  would  be  back  probably  in 
about  three  weeks.   I  would  let  him  know  what  the  outcome  of 
that  trip  was.   The  next  paragraph  is  that  "with  respect  to 


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the  possibility  of  selling  your  products  to  the  government  of 
the  United  States,  I  think  it's  a  real  possibility,  and  it's 
part  of  the  discussion  I  have  had  in  Central  America." 

Q    Let's  back  up  for  a  minute.   It's  part  of  the 
discussions  that  you  had  in  Central  America? 
A    Yes. 

I  didn't  catch  the  last  portion. 

"It's  related  to  the  discussions  I  had  in  Central 


Q 
A 

America . 
Q 
A 


All  right.   What  is  the  next  paragraph? 

"I  expect  to  be  in  Chile  in  November  and  I  would 
like  to  meet  with  you  and  Cardoen  during  that  time." 

Q    The  third  paragraph  referring  to  weapon  sales  to 
the  United  States,  is  that  the  same  deal  or  a  different  deal? 

A    Here  we  go  back  again  to  the  development  of  an 
attack  helicopter  for  Third  World  possibilities. 

Q    Does  this  telex  refer  to  the  Calero  deal? 

A     No. 

Q    Were  you  talking  on  the  telephone  with  Mr.  Sommers 
at  all? 

A    I  imagine  I  talked  to  him.   I  talked  to  him  two, 
three  times  a  month  on  the  telephone. 


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Q    Did  you  discuss  with  him  the  possibility  or  the 
progress  of  your  proposal  with  Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Calero? 

A    More  than  likely  he  asked  me  where  we  were  at,  and 
I  told  him  I  had  no  information,  because  I  didn't  get  any 
feedback  from  the  other  guy. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  have  some  handwritten  notes  that 
were  produced  in  discovery.   Some  of  them  are  legible,  some 
of  them  are  almost  illegible.   I  am  going  to  have  them  marked 
and  ask  you  if  you  can  identify  either  handwriting  and  also 
some  of  the  references,  if  you  would. 

(Pena  Exhibit  14  identified.) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

Q    I  have  shown  you  what  has  been  marked  as 
Deposition  Exhibit  14.   Do  you  recognize  the  handwriting  on 
that  exhibit? 

A    Gerry  Cassidy's. 

Q    It  has  a  date  of  November  12,  1986,  in  the  upper 
left-hand  corner. 

A    Yes . 

Q    Do  you  recall  a  meeting  at  or  about  that  time  to 
which  these  notes  refer? 

A    Yes.   Could  have  been  a  meeting  with  Rich  Miller, 


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could  have  been  a  meeting  with  Gerry  and  I .   I  am  not  -- 
Q    Yes.   Do  you  know  what  the  meeting  was  about? 
A    It  was  regarding  Panama  —  you  asked  me  what  other 
relations  I  had  with  IBC  and  Rich  Miller  regarding  Panama. 
Panama  was  looking  for  foreign  aid.   They  were  getting  their 
foreign  aid  cut  off,  and  Rich  Miller  had  asked  us  —  had 
asked  me  about  what  could  be  done.   Then  we  set  up  a  meeting 
with  Gerry,  so  we  had  come  in  and  discussed  it. 

MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Let's  mark  this  as  Exhibit  15. 

(Pena  Exhibit  15  identified.) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
Q    I  apologize  for  the  quality  of  the  copies,  but  it 
really  is  about  the  best  we  can  do  with  what  we  have  got.   Do 
you  recognize  the  handwriting  on  Exhibit  15? 
A    Is  that  Tom  — 

MR.  TOMPKINS  I   I  don't  know. 
THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  know. 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
Q    Is  it  your  handwriting? 
A    No. 
Q    Doing  the  best  you  can,  reading  it,  do  you  know  to 


what  it  refers? 


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1  A    Well,  it  says  "11/25/86,  meeting  with  Kevin 

2  Hopkins . " 

3  Q    Who  is  Kevin  Hopkins? 

4  A    He  worked  with  or  for  IBC  regarding  the  proposals 

5  I  had  mentioned  earlier,  foreign  aid,  in  conjunction  with  the 

6  debt  crisis  in  the  international  banks . 

7  Q    There  is  reference  at  the  bottom  about  a  50/50 

8  split.   Do  you  know  what  that  refers  to? 

9  A    We  had  had  a  long  discussion  about  how  we  were 

10  going  to  prepare  ourselves  to  go  to  the  banks  and  all  the 

11  material  that  we  needed  to  produce,  so  you  can  go  with 

12  strategy  to  propose  to  the  banks.   We  had  talked  about  how  we 

13  were  going  to  split  the  workload. 

14  Q    You  don't  know  offhand  whose  handwriting  this 

15  might  be? 

16  A    Mo. 

17  Q    Both  in  —  let's  cover  the  next  exhibit  as  well, 

18  then  I  will  put  a  request  on  the  record. 

19  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Mark  that  Exhibit  16. 

20  (Pena  Exhibit  16  identified.) 

21  BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 

22  Q    Looking  at  Exhibit  16,  do  you  recognize  the 


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1  handwriting  on  that  piece  of  paper? 

2  A     No. 

3  Q    Can  you  state  that  it  is  not  yours' 

4  A    No,  it's  not  mine. 

5  j         Q    Do  you  recognize  any  of  the  substance  on  the 

6  j  note?   Does  it  mean  anything  to  you? 

7  I         A    No. 

8  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Mr.  Tompkins,  with  regard  to 

9  Exhibits  14  and  15,  what  I  would  like  to  ask  is  that  we  be 

10  provided  access  to  the  originals.   Also,  rather  than  issue  a 

11  broad  gauge  subpoena,  if  you  could  attempt  to  determine  and 

12  send  me  a  letter  as  to  who  the  author  of  these  two  notes  is, 

13  we  can  probably  take  care  of  it  that  way. 

■14  I  MR.  TOMPKINS:   I  think  so,  you  said  14  and  15.   I 

15  think  you  mean  15  and  16. 

16  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Yes,  15  and  16.   14  has  been 

17  identified  as  Mr.  Cassidy's  handwriting,  and  that's  entirely 

18  legible. 

19  MR.  TC»1PKINS:   W«  will  undertake  to  see  if  we  have 

20  the  originals.   I  am  not  sure  we  do.   Also  undertake  to  find 

21  out  whose  writing  that  is.   I  will  give  you  the  answers  to 

22  both  of  those  as  soon  as  we  can. 


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MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That  would  be  fine.   If  you  could 
just  put  that  in  a  letter  to  me,  that  would  be  acceptable. 
Let's  mark  this  as  Exhibit  17. 

(Pena  Exhibit  17  identified.) 
BY  MR.  MC  GOUGH: 
Q    I  am  showing  you  what  has  been  marked  as  Exhibit 
17,  Mr.  Pena,  which  appears  to  be  a  memorandum  in  Spanish 
dated  April  7,  1986.   Take  a  moment  to  review  it,  I  an  not 
going  to  ask  you  to  translate  the  whole  thing.   We  would  be 
here  for  the  rest  of  the  afternoon.  My  question  for  you  is 
going  to  be,  can  you  summarize  for  me  what  it  is. 
^       A    Let  me  give  you  the  summary  of  this .   Bosco 
Matamoros  gave  me  this  whUi  a  meeting  that  Bob  Leiken  had 
with  FDN  commanders  in  a  foreign  country,  what  they  wanted  to 
do  with  their  struggle  for  freedom.  We  can  go  even  further 
to  say  that  this  is  something  political  that  the  FDN  did, 
Bosco  wanted  me  to  read,  because  they  were  concerned  about 
Leiken,  who  was  not  supporting  the  FDN,  Calero  and  company. 
Q    Who's  Leiken,  for  the  record? 

A    He  is  a  Ph.D.  who  was  a  Sandinista  supporter  and 
decided  to  quit  supporting  the  Sandinista  supporters  and  got 
involved  in  the  UNO  group.  United  Nicaraguan  Opposition 


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group.   As  far  as  I  know,  he  is  a  friend  of  the  United 
Nicaraguan  Opposition.   The  other  people  who  are  involved  in 
it  are  not  Adolpho  Calero  and  Bosco  Matamoros. 

Q    Can  you  give  me,  for  the  record,  a  general  sujtunary 
of  the  substance  of  this? 

A    To  be  honest  with  you,  I  didn't  read  it  when  he 
gave  it  to  me.   They  were  concerned  that  Leiken  was  not 
supporting  the  FDN  side  of  it.   That's  what  I  was  told. 

Q    Why  did  Mr.  Matamoros  give  this  to  you? 

A    He  usually  shares  the  political  memorandums, 
writings  that  they  have,  the  FDN  has,  on  what  they  are  doing, 
and  how  they  are  continuing  along  in  their  struggle  to  return 
to  Nicaragua.   This  was  in  the  newspaper,  I  think,  or  maybe 
not  in  the  newspaper,  maybe  Leiken 's  trip  was  in  the 
newspaper.   He  disagreed,  Matamoros  disagreed  with  the 
reporting  in  the  newspaper  about  what  Leiken  had  said . 

Q    What  do  you  know  in  reference  to  the  April  7  date 
on  it,  when  you  might  have  received  this? 

A    Could  have  been  that  day.   It  could  have  been 
later.   I  don't  remember.   Bosco  comes  to  the  office  when  he 
wants  to  -- 

Q    Comes  to  your  office? 


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1  A    Comes  to  my  office.   He  calls  me  on  the  telephone, 

2  comes  by  to  see  me. 

3  Q    Would  Mr.  Matamoros '  contacts  with  you  in  this 

4  j  regard  have  been  fairly  steady  through  1986? 

5  j         A    Regarding  political  matters? 

6  I        Q    Political  matters.   Did  you  have  a  lot  of  contact 
I 

7  I  with  Mr.  Matamoros? 

8  A    Sure.   I  talked  to  him  on  the  telephone. 

9  Q   ' Can  you  give  me  an  idea  of  the  frequency? 

10  A    Sometimes  twice  a  week,  sometimes  three  times  a 

11  month.   It  would  depend  what  was  going  on,  what  activity  they 

12  were  carrying  out. 

13  Q    Did  you  discuss  this  matter  with  Mr.  Miller,  to 

14  the  best  of  your  recollection? 

15  A    This? 

16  Q    Yes. 

17  A    I  didn't  even  read  it.   I  had  no  reason  to  discuss 

18  it  with  Miller. 

19  Q    Given  your  fairly  regular  contact  with  Matamoros, 

20  why  did  you  think  it  was  advisable  or  necessary  to  involve 

21  Mr.  Miller  in  the  military  hardware  deal? 

22  A    Can  I  suppose  for  a  minute,  instead  of  giving 


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you  -- 

Q    As  long  as  you  ultimately  get  to  an  answer,  you 
can  suppose. 

A    Due  to  my  background,  working  on  the  Hill,  seeing 
these  people  with  whom  I  worked  on  the  Hill,  I  had  a  regular 
contact  with  them,  with  Bosco  Matamoros  and  with  Adolpho 
Calero.   When  Rich  Miller  joined  the  group  9^ supporting  the 


freedom  fighters,,  I  noticed  that  not  only  Bosco  Mateunoros  but 


olpho  Calero,  everybody  else  that  was  involved,  was  more 


directed  to  the  National  'Endowment  for  Preservation  of 


Rich  Miller,  and  I  guess  Spitz  Channell; 
and  I  saw  that  at  a  couple  of  receptions  that  I  went  to,  and 
realized  that  there  may  be  something  there  that  I  hadn't  been 
able  to  get  to,  and  that's  what  gave  me  the  idea  of 
mentioning  the  possibility  of  having  weapons  that  were 
produced  in  Chile  purchased  by  the  resistance  forces  at  a 
better  price,  after  seeing  that  interaction. 

Q    You  say  there  may  have  been  something  there  that 
you  hadn't  noticed  before,  or  something  of  that  type.   Can 
you  be  a  little  more  specific?  What  was  it  about 
Mr.  Miller's  relationship  with  Adolpho  Calero  and  the  FDN 
that  gave  you  the  idea  of  presenting  him  with  a  military 


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hardware  -- 

A    Number  one,  it  wasn't  only  for  Calero  and  the 
FDN .   The  other  two,  in  newspaper  terms,  were  much  more 
moderate  than  Adolpho  Calero.   He  seemed  to  have  the  whole 
group  together  at  the  same  time.   Observing  that  gave  me  the 
idea  again  — I  supposed  this,  I  didn't  know  this  — that  there 
was  something  I  was  missing  that  I  could  not  offer  Adolpho 
Calero  or  the  rest  of  the  group. 

Q    Do  you  know  what  that  "something"  you  were  missing 
was? 

A    No,  I  don't.   I  didn't  have  any  idea.   That's  why 
when  I  mentioned  it  to  Rich  Miller,  I  wanted  to  see  if  he 
would  be  interested.   He  obviously  was. 

Q    Did  he  seem  surprised  that  you  had  broached  that 
possibility  with  him? 

A    I  don't  recall.   I  don't  recall  if  there  was 
surprise,  alarm  or  anything  else.   But  you  have  to  recall, 
now,  that  at  that  time  in  Washington,  in  the  newspapers,  the 
major  issue  that  was  going  on  was  the  need  for  military 
hardware  for  that  group.   So  when  people  discussed  the 
democratic  resistance  forces,  they  discussed  it  in  the 
context  of  if  they  were  going  to  be  able  to  survive  due  to 


*i%i 


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the  lack  of  military  hardware. 

Q    All  right.   Other  than  the  proposal  to  work  with 
NEPL  on  the  projects  you  have  identified.  Central  America  and 
SDI,  have  you  had  any  other  contact  with  Spitz  Channell? 

A    Just  on  —  when  Rich  Miller  brought  him  for  the 
lobbying  of  the  $100  million  and  for  SDI. 

Q    When  was  the  last  time  you  spoke  with  Mr.  Channell 
or  anyone  holding  themselves  out  to  be  a  representative  of 
Mr.  Channell? 

A    He  called  me  either  mid  ^  late  December.   I     '  >  > 
returned  from  a  trip,  I  was  only  in  Washington  for  a  few 
days,  and  he  may  have  called  me  in  January,  I  don't 
remember . 

Q    What  was  the  purpose  of  those  calls? 

A    He  was  asking  me  what  was  the  fallout,  what  was 
going  on,  on  the  Hill,  about  all  that  was  revealed  about  the 
investigation  into  the  Iran-Contra  dealings. 

Q    What  did  you  tell  him? 

A    I  told  him  I  had  been  out  of  the  country  for  about 
a  month,  and  that  I  was  just  beginning  to  read  about 
everything  that  had  happened. 

Q    To  your  knowledge,  was  Mr.  Channell  aware  that  you 


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had  made  the  Cardoen  proposal  to  Mr.   Miller? 

A     I  didn't  talk  to  him  about  it. 

Q    Mr.  Channell  never  mentioned  that  to  you? 

A    Never  mentioned  it  to  me.   Again,  I  didn't  talk  to 
him  every  day. 

Q    I  understand.   Have  you  ever  had  any  personal 
contact  with  Oliver  North? 

A    Met  him  one  time  many  years  ago  at  an  OAS 
reception, ' for  about  two  seconds.  We  shook  hands. 

Q 

A     No. 


Other  thart? 


Q    Did  Mr.  Miller  ever  discuss  with  you  any  contacts 
he  might  haveXwith  Oliver  North? 

A    He  discussed  contacts  that  he  had  with  the 
administration,  but  he  never  —  he  may  have  mentioned  it,  but 
he  also  mentioned  Shultz's  name,  and  the  rest  of  the  people 
in  the  administration. 

Q    How  many  contacts  have  you  had  with  Mr.  Miller, 
say,  since  January  1  of  this  year? 

A    I  may  have  talked  to  him  once  or  twice  on  the 
telephone. 

Q    When  was  the  most  recent  conversation? 


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1  A    That  was  in  January. 

2  Q    Haven't  spoken  to  him  since  January? 

3  A    He  hasn't  called. 

4  Q    Have  you  spoken  to  anyone  holding  themselves  out 

5  as  a  representative  or  an  attorney  for  Mr.  Miller? 

6  A    No. 

7  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  think  that's  all  I  have. 

8  MR .  FRYMAN :   I  have  no  questions . 

9  MR.  BUCK:   I  have  no  questions. 

10  MR.  TOMPKINS:   May  we  have  a  brief  recess. 

11  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   Sure. 

12  (Recess . ) 

13  MR.  TOMPKINS:   I  just  need  to  ask  him  a  few 

14  questions. 

15  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   All  right. 

16  EXAMINATION 

17  BY  MR.  TOMPKINS: 

18  Q    We  are  back  on  the  record.   I  would  just  like  to 

19  ask  Mr.  Pena  a  few  questions  to  clarify  the  record. 

20  Mr.  Pena,  am  I  correct  that  neither  Richard  Miller  nor  any 

21  organization  that  he  was  involved  with  are  now  or  ever  have 

22  been  clients  of  Cassidy  &  Associates? 


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1  A    That's  correct. 

2  Q    Am  I  also  correct  that  neither  Mr.  Channell  nor 

3  any  organization  that  he  was  involved  in  or  affiliated  with 

4  are  now  or  ever  have  been  clients  of  Cassidy  6  Associates? 

5  A    That's  correct. 

6  Q    And  am  I  also  correct  that  the  firms  you  have  been 

7  discussing  today,  including  Cardcen,  Monte-Paz  —  well,  that 

8  those  two  firms  are  not  and  never  have  been  clients  of 

9  Cassidy  &  Associates? 

10  A    That's  correct. 

11  MR.  TOMPKINS:   I  think  those  are  the  only 

12  questions  I  needed  to  ask  Mr.  Pena. 

13  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   All  right. 

14  MR.  TOMPKINS:   I  would  like  to,  though,  ask  on  the 

15  record  your  intentions,  if  you  have  any,  of  whether  any  part 

16  of  this  transcript  or  any  of  these  documents  may  become  part 

17  of  the  public  record. 

18  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   I  don't  know,  and  that's  the  short 

19  answer.  The  matters  all  become  part  of  the  Committee  record, 

20  and  obviously  we  are  starting  the  public  hearings  tomorrow, 

21  and  there  will  ultimately  be  a  report  written  and  promulgated 

22  by  the  Committee. 


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1  At  that  time,  at  each  step  along  the  way,  the 

2  Conunittee  will  make  decisions  as  to  what  portions  of  the 

3  record  will  be  made  public  and  what  portions  won't.   Those 

4  are  made,  I  believe,  if  I  read  the  rules  correctly,  by  a 

5  majority  vote  of  the  Committee.   That's  about  all  I  can  tell 

6  you. 

7  It's  a  matter  that  is  really  out  of  my  hands.   We 

8  compile  the  record,  and  the  Committee  decides  what  it  wants 

9  to  do  with  it. 

10  MR.  TOMPKINS:   I  understand  that.   In  the  letter 

11  that  we  sent  accompanying  the  documents,  we  had  a  request 

12  that  if  there  is  any  intention  to  use  any  of  the  documents  or 

13  this  transcript  as  part  of  the  public  record,  we  would  like 

14  to  be  notified  48  hours  in  advance,  aa  I  would  like  to       vJtfl.c 

15  restate  that  request  in  the  record.  I 

16  MR.  MC  GOUGH:   That's  fine.   It's  on  the  record. 

17  For  the  record,  let^  me  say,  as  far  as  signature  goes,  as 

18  soon  as  the  transcript  is  available,  I  will  notify  you, 

19  Mr.  Tompkins,  and  you  and  Mr.  Pena  can  come  down  and  look  at 

20  the  transcript.   I  have  already  told  you  that  we  will  take 

21  your  request  for  a  copy  of  the  transcript  under  advisement. 

22  I  will  notify  you  of  the  Committee's  position  on  that 


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1  shortly. 

2  MR.  TOMPKINS:   That's  fine.   Thank  you. 

3  MR .  MC  GOUGH :   Thank  you  very  much ,  Mr .  Pena . 

4  THE  WITNESS:   You  are  welcome. 

5  I  (Whereupon,  at  12:03  p.m.,  the  deposition  was 

6  concluded. ) 
7 
8 


9  RICHARD  PENA 

10 
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CERTIPICATB   OP    WOTAHY    PUBClgH"fePORTER 

66 

I.   WENDY  S.  COX _,   the   officer   before   whom 

the  foregoing  deposition  was  taken,  do  hereby_certify 
that  the  witness  whose  testimony  appears  in  the 
foregoing  deposition  was  duly  sworn  by  me;  that 
the  testimony  of  said  witness  was  taken  in  shorthand 
and  thereafter  reduced  to  typewriting  by  me  or  under 
my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a  true  record 
of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am 
neither  counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by 
any  of  the  parties  to  the  action  in  which  this 
deposition  was  taken;  and,  further,  that  I  am  not 
a  relative  or  employee  of  any  attorney  or  counsel 
employed  by  the  parties  hereto,  nor  financially 
or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcome  of  this  action. 


Notary  Public'ln  and  for  the 
District  of  Columbia 


My  Commission  Expires  NOVEMBER  14,  1987 


nftmim 


950 


UNCO^ 


tenograpnic  Irani 
HEARINGS 
Before  the 


HSITS«iki^ 


SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON  SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTAHCE 
TO  IRAN  AND  TBE  NICARAGUAR  OPPOSITION 

ffBL  NO.  ..'■■  ,  OF i:...-XOWi 

UNITED  STATES  SENATE 


DKPOSITIOR  or  THOMAS  R.  PICESRIIG 
Wednesday,  July  15,  1987 


ACFSC^i  ^=CF"r.G 


(202)    623-9300     rnpy  no" 
20    ?    STilEST,    M.W. 


lA 


•OF /..CO  pipe 


951 


wmm 


1  DEPOSITIOW  OF  THOMAS  R.  PICKEHIMg 

2  Wadnaaday,  July  15,  1987 

3  Unitad  Stataa  Sanata 

4  Salact  Coaalttaa  on  Sacrat 

5  Military  Aaaiatanca  to  Irem 

6  and  tha  Nicaraguan  Oppoaition 

7  Naahlngton,  D.  C. 

8  Dapoaition  of  THOMAS  R.  PZCXERIN6,  callad  aa  a 

9  vitnaaa  by  cotinaal  for  tha  Salact  Comittaa,  at  tha 

10  officaa  of  tha  Salact  CosBittaa,  Rooa  SH-901,  Hart  Sanata 

11  Of flea  Building,  Naahington,  0.  C,  coaBancing  at  8:08 

12  a.m.,  tha  vitnaaa  having  baan  duly  avom  by  MICHAL  ANN 

13  SCHAFER,  a  Notary  Public  in  and  for  tha  Diatrict  of 

14  Columbia,  and  tha  taatioony  baing  taJcan  down  by  Stenonask 

15  by  MICHAL  ANN  SCHAFER  and  tranacribad  undar  har 

16  direction.  ^ 


meiASHD 


952 


Mmm 


1  APPEAItANCES: 

2  On  b«balf  of  th«  S«nat«  S«l«ct  Coaaitt**  on  Secret 

3  Military  Aasistanc*  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan 

4  Opposition: 

5  TERRY  SMIUANICH,    ESQ. 

6  On  behalf  of  the  House  Select  Cooaittee  to 

7  Investigate  Covert  Araa  Transactions  with  Iran: 

8  THOMAS  FRYMAN,  ESQ. 


953 


immm 


1  COMTBWTS 

2  EXAMIMATTOM  OH  BBHALF  OP 

3  WITNESS  SZam  HOUSE 

4  Tboaas  R.  Pickering 

5  By  Mr.  Smlljanlch  4 


UNCuissra 


954 


mmm 


1  PRQCggPIHGS 

2  Wh«r«upon, 

3  THOMAS  R.  PICKERING, 

4  callad  as  a  vitnaas  by  cotinsal  on  bahalf  of  tha  Sanata 

5  Salact  Comnlttaa  and  having  baan  duly  svom  by  tha  Notary 

6  Public,  was  axaainad  and  tastiflad  as  follows: 

7  EXAKINATION 

8  BY  MR.  SMILJANICB: 

9  Q    Mr.  Aabassador,  stata  your  naaa  for  tha 

10  racord. 

11  A    My  namm   is  Thoaas  R.  Pickaring. 

12  Q    And  you  ara  eurrantly  tha  Unitad  Stataa 

13  Anbassador  to  tha  Govamaant  of  Israal? 

14  A    To  tha  Stata  of  Israal. 

15  Q    Tha  Stata  of  Israal.  Mr.  Ambassador,  you  have 

16  had  a  dlstlnguishad  caraar.  You  ara  a  caraar  Foraign 

17  Sarvica  Officar;  is  that  corract? 

18  A    That's  corract. 

19  Q    And  you  sarvad  as  Exacutiva  Sacratary  of  State 

20  and  also  as  Special  Assistant  to  tha  Sacratary  of  State 

21  in  tha  early  '70s? 

22  A    That's  correct. 

23  Q    Was  that  to  Secretary  of  Stata  Henry 

24  Kissinger? 

25  A    Both  to  William  Rogers  and  Henry  Kissinger 


mmm 


955 


UNCUSSIFm 


1  froa  July  1973  until  January  of  1974.   It  was  a  short 

2  p«riod. 

3  Q    And  you'v*  also  ssrvsd  as  Aobassador  to 

4  Jordan,  Nigeria,  El  Salvador  and  Zsraal? 

5  A    That's  corrsct. 

6  Q    What  wars  th«  inclusiv*  dates  of  your 

7  aabassadorshlp  in  El  Salvador? 

8  A    I  was  Ambassador  in  El  Salvador  froa  Sapteaber 

9  1983  until  ald-Juns  1985  —  aarly  S«pt«ab«r,  to  ths  best 

10  of  ay  recollection. 

11  Q    Who  was  yoxir  predecessor  in  El  Salvador? 

12  A    Dean  Hinton. 

13  Q    And  your  successor? 

14  A    Edward  Corr. 

15  Q    I  think  it's  Edwin. 

16  A    Edwin  Corr,  correct. 

17  Q    And  you  went  froa  there  to  Israel;  is  that 

18  right? 

19  A    That's  correct. 

20  Q    Was  there  any  hiatus  in-between? 

21  A    Only  the  tiae  required  for  confiraation.   I 

22  left  El  Salvador  in  aid-June  and  I  was  in  Israel  by  the 

23  end  of  July. 

24  Q    Who  was  your  predecessor  in  Israel? 

25  A    Saauel  Lewis. 


UNewiffi 


956 


IHJJUSSIflflr" 


1  Q    At  SOB*  point  during  your  tanur*  In  El 

2  Salvador  a  aan  by  th«  naa«  of  Fallx  Rodriguez  caa«  to 

3  your  attention;  is  that  correct? 

4  A    That's  correct. 

5  Q    How  did  he  first  coae  to  your  attention? 

6  A    Z  believe  that  Z  received  information  —  and 

7  I'B  not  exactly  sure  whether  it  was  by  phone  call  or  by 

8  cable,  or  both  — •  froa  Don  Gregg,  vho  was  the  National 

9  Security  Advisor  in  Vice  President  Bush's  office  that 

10  they  would  like  to  have  urn   talk  with  hla. 

11  g    Did  Mr.  aregg  explain  what  background  he  or 

12  the  Vice  President  had  with  Mr.  Rodriguez? 

13  A    I 'a  not  sure  whether  it  was  Mr.  Gregg  directly 

14  or  through  a  message  or  through  sxibsequent  conversations 

15  or  through  a  message  from  General  Gorman  that  he  had 

16  previously  been  associated  with  the  CIA  in  Vietnam,  that 

17  he  had  developed  some  tactical  operations  with  the  use  of 

18  helicopters,  and  that  his  advice  and  opinions  could  be 

19  useful  to  the  Salvadoran  Air  Force. 

20  ^      Q    We've  got  a  group  of  documents  here  that  will 

21  help  refresh  your  recollection  on  some  of  these  events 

22  that  took  place  some  time  ago.   First  let  me  show  you  a 

23  cover  memo  from  Colonel  Steele  to  you  dated  1  February 

24  85,  together  with  a  typewritten  ~  it  looks  like  it  was 

25  taken  from  a  cable.   Take  a  moment  and  read  that  and  let 


oNerara 


957 


10 

1] 

12 
13 

14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


mm 


ma 


mm   aak  you  sob*  questions  about  it. 
(Psuss.) 

A    This  possibly,  although  ay  rscollsction  is  a 
littla  hazy,  is  a  draft  prepared  for  ■•  to  rsviav  and 
sign.   It  could  possibly  b«  th«  asssags  that  actually 
want.   I'm  not  certain.   It  would  depend  upon  where  you 
got  this  typed  copy.  This  is  copy  that  looks  like  it's 
prepared  in  outgoing  form. 

Q    That's  one  of  ay  first  questions.  Obviously 
this  is  not  in  the  fora  of  the  typical  cable,  state 
Oepartaent  cable.  This  was  contained  in  the  docuaents 
that  we  had  received  froa,  I  believe  — 

A    Froa  the  eabassy  in  El  Salvador,  froa  their 
files? 

Q    I  believe  froa  their  files. 

A    This  possibly  is  a  copy  prepared  by  the 
coaaander  of  the  Mil 


"^    So  we  don't  have  a  copy  of  any  original  cable 
sent.  You  don't  know  whether  or  not  that  was  ever  — 


yimmtFe 


958 


IWWSIflED 


8 


1  A    I  don't  althar.   Hy  iaprassion  la,  from  th« 

2  b««t  of  ay  racollaction,  that  tha  aaaaaga  vaa  actually 

3  sant,  but  I  can't  tall  you  for  cartaln. 

4  Q    Now  bafora  va  go  on,  In  hara  rafaranca  is  aada 

5  to  tha  fact  that  Mr.  Rodrlguaz  has  high  laval  contacts  at 

6  tha  Hhita  Housa.   That  would  b«  Mr.  Gragg,  right? 

7  A    Corract. 

8  Q    It  says  Dapartaant  of  Stata.   Do  you  hava  any 

9  racollaction? 

10  A    No.   I  think  it  possibly  rafars  to  tha  fact 

11  that  va  nay  hava  had  inforaation  or  suspactad  that  Mr. 

12  Gragg  may  hava  also  aantionad  tha  quastion  to  Tony  Motlay 

13  or  somaona  on  his  staff,  but  I  can't  tall  you.   You'd 

14  hava  to  asX  them. 

15  Q    Okay.   Thank  you.   Nov  I  then  hava,  in  the 

16  form  of  an  actual  cahlB,   dated  February  12,  1985,  for 

17  Craig  Johnstone  from  you,  although  tha  text  of  the  cable 

18  —  I ' 11  give  you  a  moment  to  read  it  —  the  text  of  the 

19  cable  is  actually  a  message  you  received  from  General 

20  Gorman  on  February  8.   Take  a  moment  and  look  at  that. 

21  (Pause.) 

22  A    I  faintly  recall.   This  was  part  of  my 

23  practice  of  making  sure  that  the  Department  of  State  was 

24  aware  of  back  channels  to  other  agencies,  and  so  this 

25  went  in  a  special  channel.   You  have  it  blocked  out. 


limSStflffl 


959 


mmsm 


Q        Th«  Stat*  D«partB«nt  blackad  it  out. 

A    For  specif ic  raasons. 

Q    Nov  l«t  ■•  r«f«r  to  portions  of  this  cabls  and 
than  ask  soas  questions  about  it.   First  of  all,  is  it 
corract  that  th*  s\ibstanca  of  ths  cabls  is  inforaation 
you  vara  racaiving  froa  Ganaral  Goraan  — 

A    That's  corract. 

Q    —  rathar  than  inforaation  you  had  yoursalf? 

A    That's  corract. 

Q    And  tha  aassaga  froa  Ganaral  Goraan  says; 
"Sub j act"  —  tha  sub j act  baing  Falix  Bodriguas  —  "has 
baan  put  into  play  by  Ollia  Worth  and,  vhila  vail 
acquaintad,  doas  not  hava  highar  backing.  Ollia  assuras 
sa  that  ha  vill  pass  vord  to  Rodriguaz  to  gat  in  touch 
with  aa  bafora  ha  goas  any  furthar." 

Than,  if  Z  can  skip  a  fav  things  hara,  it 
says,  Ganaral  Goraan  discussas  in  tha  cabla  about  a 
dacision  as  to  vhathar  ha  aight  ba  usaful  to  El  Salvador 
air  forca  oparations.   Than  it  says:   "But  Ollia  assuras 
||»  that  his  intant  was  to  focus  Rodriguaz  on  f orcas 
•parating  alsavhara  in  Cantral  Aaarica  and  that  nothing 
aora  than  consulting  with"  —  and  thara's  a  naaa  blackad 
out,  but  Z  baliava  that'sj 

A    Possibly 

Q    —  "was  contaaplatad. 


960 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


^    Oo«s  this  proapt  any  further  r«coll«ctlon  trcn 
you  about  any  tlas  that  you  undaratood  Rodrlguaz  had  with 
Ollvar  North  or  tha  fact  that  hia  Blaalon  in  Cantral 
Aaarlca  sight  hava  aoaathlng  Bora  to  do  than  aiaply 
Intaractlng  with  tha  El  Salvador  air  forca? 

A    No.  Quit a  tha  contrary,  tha  bast  of  By 
racollactlon  vas  that  our  total  Intaraat  in  hlB  vas 
focuaad  on  Bl  Salvador.   Xn  our  prior  convarsationa  Z 
raaaabarad,  only  aftar  you  racallad,  thia  vaa  a  aurpriaa 
to  Ba.   Z  hadn't  any  raal  focus,  as  Z  told  you,  on  his 
oparations  elaavhara.  Tha  aaaaaga  ia  vary  claar.   I 
obvioualy  raad  it  bafora  I  aant  it.   Obviotialy  Z  abaorbad 
It.   But,  as  Z  told  you,  it  vaan't  of  apacific  intaraat 
to  aa  bacausa  forcas  oparating  alaatrtiara  in  Cantral 
Aaarica  bliaafully  vara  not  ay  problaa. 

g    You  had  a  full  plata  in  El  Salvador? 

A    Yaa. 

Q    Do  you  hava  any  racollaction  of  what  you 
ondaratood  to  ba  "forcaa  oparating  alaavhara  in  Cantral 
Aaarica"? 

A    No.   X  didn't.   Z  Bust  say  Z  don't  think  Z 
focuaad  on  it.   Z  praauaad  it  could  hava  baan  aithar 

forcaa,  but  Z  don't  think  it  avar  rang 


961 


\jt«(SfckS8«FftB 


11 


1  «ny  b«lls  or  •v^r  v«nt  any  f\irth«r  in  ay  thinking  on  th« 

2  subjact.  That's  juat  apaculation  aftar  tha  fact  —  tha 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1  f  orcas 

4  Q    Tha  last  santanca  of  tha  masaaga  froa  Ganaral 

5  Gorman  aaya:   "Ollia  rogarad  and  said  that  Rodriguaz  can 

6  ba  Buch  aora  usaful  In  othar  placas  vhara  aid  and  advlca 

7  ia  auch  scarcar."  Did  you  avar  discuss  this  aattar,  to 

8  your  racollaction,  diractly  with  Liautanant  Colonal 

9  Horth? 

10  A    No.   I  don't  think  so.  My  contacts  vith 

11  Liautanant  Colonal  North  vara  also  blissfully  vary  scares 

12  and  far  batvaan,  and  I  don't  raaaabar  his  avar  raising 

13  this  sub j act  vith  aa  or  our  discussing  it.   It's  not 

14  iapossibla  that  ay  racollaction  could  ba  rafrashad,  but 

15  it  rings  no  balls  at  tha  praaant  tiaa. 

16  Q    Do  you  knov  vhathar  or  not  you  avar  discussed 

17  vith  Ganaral  Goraan  vhat  ha  vas  rafarring  to  vhan  ha 

18  talkad  about  "f orcas  alsavhara  in  Cantral  Aaarica"  or 

19  Rodriguaz  baing  usaful  in  othar  placas? 

20  A    Not  spacifically.   But,  as  Z  said,  thara  vera 

21  a  liaitad  niiabar  of  candidates  for  that  particular 

22  subject. 

23  Q    Nov,  than,  let  aa  shov  you  tha  naxt-to-last 

24  series  of  aessages  on  this  subject,  emd  this  looks  to  be 

25  a  Defense  Department  cable  dated_]^ebruary  14,  1985,  from 
TOP 


82-726  0-88-32 


962 


\jStH6^ 


12 


1  a«n«ral  Goraan  to  you  and  Colonal  St««l«.  TaX*  a  moa«nt 

2  to  look  at  it. 

3  (Pauso.) 

4  A    Okay.   Z  raaaabar  gattlng  this. 

5  Q    Nov  1st  ■•  ■••  vfaat  ay  quaationa  ar«.   In  this 

6  aaasaga  it  appaars  that  Ganaral  GorBan  gata  a  littla  aora 

7  apacific  about  Mr.  Rodriguas'  othar  concams  in  tha 

8  ragion,  and  ha  aays  —  and  lat  aa  raad  tha  aantanca: 

9  "Rodriguas*  priaary  coaaitaant  to  tha  ragion  la  in 
^^^^^Hvhara  ha  wants  to  aaaiat  tha  FON"  —  FDH 

11  aaaning  tha  Nicaraguan  Daaocratic  Forca. 

12  A    Tha  contraa. 

13  Q    "I  told  hia  that  tha  FDN  daaarvad  hia 

14  priority."  Backing  up  a  littla  bit,  it  aaya  that  Ganaral 

15  Goraan  had  juat  aat  with  Falix  Rodriguas  and  that  ha  was 
^^^^^^^^^^Hfroa  Miaai,  that  ha  was  oparating  as  a 

17  privata  citizan,  but  hia  acguaintancaahip  with  tha  Vica 

18  Praaidant  is  raal  anough,  going  back  to  tha  lattar'a  days 

19  as  DCI.  As  a  aattar  of  fact,  Z  think  it  txims  out  that 

20  ffialix  Rodriguaz  and  Don  Gragg  ara  vary  good  frianda, 

21  parsonal  frianda,  I  think  froa  Viatnaa. 

22  Again,  I  guaaa  ay  only  quaation  is,  doaa 

23  looking  at  thia  proapt  any  furthar  racollaction  of 

24  discussing  with  anyona  Falix  Rodriguas'  rola  aa  parhaps 

25  his  praaanca  having  to  do  vit^^aiating  tha  contraa  in 


963 


iwei^siffiD 


13 


1  any  way? 

2  A    NO,  it  doaan't,  raally.  I  think  tha 

3  aaauaptlon  Z  bad,  aa  Z  racall,  at  tha  tiaa  and  cartalnly 

4  hava  nov  la  that  vhatavar  ha  votild  b«  doing  for  tha  FDM 

5  would  ba  ralatad  to  hia  praaanca  in^^^^^^^^^H  not  in 

6  El  Salvador,  and  that  whan  ha  vaa  daaling  in  El  Salvador 
ha  would  ba  daaling  with^^^^^^^^^^^Hand  tha  TOAL 

8  oparation  and  advica  to  tha  Salvadoran  air  forca  on 

9  affactiva  waya  to  conduct  thoaa  Icinda  of  activitiaa. 

10  Q    What  doaa  PRAL  maan? 

11  A    It 'a  a  long-ranga  patrol  group. 

12  Q    Tha  laat  thing  I  naad  to  ahov  you  — 

13  A    It 'a  Spaniah.   Z  think  it 'a  Patrioa 

14  Raconnaiaimianto  al  Conaalargo,  which  aaana  long-ranga 

15  patrol  group. 

16  Q    Lat  aa  ahov  you  tha  laat  docuaant  Z  hava  hara, 

17  which  again  looka  to  ba  parhapa  a  draft  of  a  cabla,  but 

18  taika  a  moaant  to  look  at  it. 

19  (Pauaa.) 

20  A    Z  raaaabar  thia.   Thia  waa  tha  and  raault  of 

21  aar  diacuaaiona  with  Falix,  laying  out  hia  plan  of 

22  oparation,  and  baaically  ia  tha  aajor  iapact  of  Falix  on 

23  ma  in  taraa  of  racollaction  ia  containad  in  that  maasaga. 

24  Q    In  othar  worda,  thia  aaaaaga  daacribaa  aona 

25  spacific  idaaa  ha  baa  about  cartain  tactica  that  can  ba 


964 


4^ 


used  to  counter  guerrilla  tactics  and  that  was 
understanding  of  what  ha  was  doing  in  El  Salvador? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Now  in  connection  with  those  activities  he 
operated  —  first  of  all,  he  worked  very  closely  with 


\intussw 


965 


PICKERIN.ASC 


KNMSfftfD 


^    Were  you  AUare ,  up  to  the  time  you  left  in 
June  of  '85,  of  any  activities  engaged  in  by  Mr. 
Rodriguez  that  went  beyond  these  counterinsurgency  — 
this  counterinsurgency  work  with  the  El  Salvador  air 
force? 

A    No,  I  wasn't. 

Q    He,  in  connection  with  this  work,  was  granted 
certain  privileges  at  the  Embassy;  isn't  that  correct? 

A    After  the  fact  —  I  think  that's  right  —  I 
became  aware  of  the  fact  that  the  Mil  Group  gave  him 
support  of  some  kind,  I  gather  parallel  to  what  we  would 
give  civilian  contractors,  although  he  was  not  a 
contractor  to  us  and  was  a  no-cost,  apparently, 
contractor  to  the  Salvadoran  air  force. 
Do,  if  I  understand 


>/, 


■^ 


iJNSUSSIFIfJ 


966 


15 


1  Certain  category  of  atandard  privllagaa  that  ar«  given  to 

2  contractors  who  hava  an  official  relationship  with  tha 

3  U.S.  Govamaant,  and  ha  was  givan  aiailar? 

4  A    I  don't  know  for  a  fact  exactly  what  ha  was 

5  given  except  for  what  we  talked  about  in  our  secure 

6  telephone  conversation  sobs  aonths  ago,  and  I  think 

7  Colonel  Steele  would  probeUsly  be  tha  bast  source  for  what 

8  privileges  he  was  given.  As  of  tha  tiaa  you  and  I  spoke, 

9  I  didn't  have  any  recollection  that  ha  was  givan  any 

10  privileges  —  whether  it  was  access  to  tha  coaaissary,  a 

11  radio  or  car,  or  use  of  a  car. 

12  Noraally  wa  were  fairly  broad-alnded  with 

13  people  in  teras  of  being  involved  in  our  radio  net  in 

14  order  to  provide  thea  the  security  support.   That 

15  included  things  like  the  school  where  we  had  children  and 

16  other  non-govemaental  entities.   Beyond  that,  Z  just 

17  don't  know  what  he  was  given,  and  if  he  were  given  those 

18  kinds  of  things  I  think  there  aay  have  been  soae  slight 

19  discordant  noises  with  our  own  approach  to  the  thing. 

20  But  it  was  soaething  that  never  ceune  to  oy 

21  attention  and  soaething  I  don't  recollect. 

22  Q    Now,  when  you  left  El  Salvador  did  you  have  a 

23  session  with  the  new  Aabassador,  Aabassador  Corr,  to  sort 

24  of  brief  hia  Into  the  role? 

25  A    Yes,  I  did.   He  had  one,  I  think,  long  dinner 


ifflssffis 


967 


msMm 


16 


1  •••■ion  bar*  in  Washington  at  which  v*  dlscu^^«d  a  lot  of 

2  i^^u^^  and  v«  v^r^  In  contact  by  phon«  and  by  Bastings  In 

3  th«  Stat*  D«partB«nt. 

4  Q    Do  you  racall  vhathar  or  not  Falix  Rodriguez 

5  was  a  big  anough  or  laportant  anough  auto j act  that  It 

6  would  hava  coma  up  in  your  brlaflng  with  Mr.  Corr? 

7  A    Z  baliava  Z  did,  but  «y  racollaction  la  a 

8  little  hazy,  and  Bd'a  r«collaction  on  that  would  ba 

9  aithar  a  croas-ch«ck  or  a  danlal,  but  to  tha  baat  of  ay 

10  knowladga  Z  baliava  it  caaa  up  not  aa  •  cantral  focua 

11  i^^u^  but  ••  aiaply,  h«y,  h^ra  la  aoaathing  you  ought  to 

12  Xnow  about.  Thia  i^  trtiat  ha  haa  baan  doing.  Thia  !•  By 

13  understanding  of  what  h«  haa  dona. 

14  At  that  point  hia  operation  or  th^  operation 

15  which  he  advised  had  had  ••veral  real  euccee^a^  and,  as  a 

16  ra^ult,  Z  had  acre  them  juet  a  kind  of  passing  interest 

17  in  what  was  going  on. 

18  Q    And  you  don't  recall  that  any  of  your 

19  discussions  with  Ambassador  Corr  would  have  had  any 

20  aaiition  of  any  activities  beyond  his  counter insurgency 

21  imrk?  Let  ne  add  to  that,  by  the  way,  that  Aabassador 

22  Corr  has  been  interviewed  and  deposed  and  he  has  no 

23  recollection  of  such  a  subject  coaing  up. 

24  A    No.   Z  would  say  I  would  be  aost  surprised  if 

25  it  did.   My  recollection  is  it  did  not.   Z  was  just  not 


968 


MbMED 


17 


1  i«rolng  in  on  any  such  aap«ct  of  hla  activity,  daaplta 

2  th«  avldanca,  obviously,  to  tha  contrary.  Although  that 

3  avidanca  indicatad  to  aa  tha  primary  aarly  intaraat  In 

4  his  prasanca,  ay  aanaa  vaa  that  hia  praaanca  in  El 

5  Salvador  continuad  to  ba  focusad  axclusivaly  on  tha 

6  Bias ion  va  had  outlinad. 

7  Q    Wall,  to  b«  fair,  I  think  obviously  vhan  va 

8  hava  a  dapoaition  lika  thia  va  focua  in  on  tvo  or  thraa 

9  docuaanta  lika  thia,  but  if  you  atac)cad  up  all  tha 

10  paparvork  you  lookad  at  aa  an  Aabaaaador  Z'a  aura  it 

11  trould  go  pratty  high. 

12  A    Z*B  aura  you  undaratand. 

13  Q    In  1984  Congraaa  cut  off  all  funding, 

14  appropriationa  availabla  to  assist  tha  Nicaraguan 

15  raaiatanca.   Whan  thia  varaion  of  tha  Boland  Aaandaant 

16  vas  anactad  into  lav  in  1984,  do  you  racall  vhat  spacific 

17  affact  that  lav  had  on  your  activitiaa  aa  Aabaaaador  or 

18  tha  vork  of  tha  paopla  in  your  aabaaay? 

19      A    To  tha  baat  of  ay  racollaction  I  spoka  with 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  It      hava  baan  soaatiaa  naar  the 

21  ^iB^o^lSB^^^nGn't  raaambar.  Whan  vaa  thia  Boland 

22  Aaandmant? 

23  Q    I  baliava  it  czma  into  affect  October  of  '84. 

24  A    Sonatina  around  than,  and  raised  vith  hin  an 

25  operation  on  which  I  had  been  briefed] 

TOP 


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At  that 
told^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  that  it  was 
ay  ballaf  that  ha  had  to  taralnata  thoaa  oparatlons  and  I 
aakad  hia  what  Instructions  ha  had  froa  Washington. 
Ha  said  Indaad  ha  had  instructions  froa 
Washington,  that  tha  oparation  had  b«an  winding  down,  emd 
that  ha  had  than,  during  ay  first  or  in  subsaquant 
convarsations,  ha  inforaad  aa  that  avarything  that  had 
baan  tha  proparty  of  tha  Agancy  had  baan  trar^farrad  and 
that  tha  Agancy  was  no  longar  in  any  way  at  all  involvad 
in  supply  activitiasj 

[to  tha  bast  of  ay 
that  ha  fait  that  thay  wara  in  coaplata  obsarvation  of 
tha  Boland  Aaandmant  as  a  rasult  of  thosa  actions. 
Was  ^^^^^^H  did  you 
A    Yas. 

Q    Di^^^^^^^Htall  you  to  whoa  thay  had 
transfarrad  this  aquipaant  or  assats? 
A    I  baliava  if  ha  didn't 


Q    Did  you  hava  any  discussion  prior  to  laaving 
El  Salvador  of  tha  rola  of  privata  banafactors  in 
supplying  tha  contras? 


DNSKSmfi 


970 


UNSmWD 


19 


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25 


A    Z  was  g«n«rally  avar*  of  th«  fact  that  private 
b«n«f actors  vara.  I'm  not  sura  vhat  you  aaan  did  Z  hava 
any  discussion.  Did  I  hava  any  discussion  with  anybody? 
Did  I  have  any  discussion  vithi 

Q    niat's  a  fair  question.   Let's  start  wit 

In  discussing  the  transition  froa  fxinding 

to  no  funding  for  the  Kicaraguan  resistance,  did  you  have 

any  discussion  with^^^^^^^^^^^^|  about  trtxat  role 

private  benefactors  would  have? 

A    Z  did  not,  and,  to  the  best  of  ay  knowledge, 
/ 
be  did  not  raise  the  stibject.  Subsequently  with  respect 

to  private  benefactors  to  Salvadoran  military  forces  Z 

expressed  my  desire  that  the  role  of  the  military  group 

be  extremely  cautious,  that  they  should  not  engage 

themselves  in  direct  support  for  these  individuals  ,1 


And  Z  can't  really  recall  whether  at  any  point 
during  my  tenure  the  issue  of  private  benefactors 
operating  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hother 
actually  came  up  and  whether  we  had  any  similar 
conversations.  But  the  standing  instructions  with 
respect  to  El  Salvador  were  so  clear  and  limited.   Zn  my 
discussions  Z  thought  of  the  Boland  Amendment  and  our 
involvement,  plus  all  the  publicity,  was  so  self-evident 
3Ei 


971 


mmm       *" 


20 

1  that  no  on*  would  angag*  in  that  kind  of  activity  cither 

2  without  latting  b«  know  or,  altamativaly,  without  using 

3  thair  good  sansa  about  obaying  tha  law. 

4  Q    Wara  you  avar  aakad  by  anyona  to  facilitate  in 

5  any  way  or  assist,  do  any  favors  for  any  private 

6  benefactors  groups  that  would  be  supplying  the  contras 

7  during  that  tiae? 

8  A    The  only  tiae,  the  only  issue  that  coaes  to  ay 

9  recollection  was  the  one  that  we  have  discussed  of  the 

10  docuaent  which  listed  the  donation,  which  Z  was  asked  by 

11  an  individual  to  pass  that  docuaent  on.   Possibly  Ollle 

12  caae  to  ay  alnd  or  it  caae  to  his  alnd.   I 'a  not  certain 

13  which. 

14  Q    Let  me  put  that  aside  for  a  second;  I  want  to 

15  ask  you  about  that.   But  beyond  that  docvunent  — 

16  A    Beyond  that  I  have  no  clear  recollection  of 

17  any  such  circumstance. 

18  Q    Then  let's  go  ahead  and  talk  about  that 

19  particular  aatter  involving  this  docuaent.   As  I 

20  understand  it,  the  last  time  we  talked  to  you,  you  had 

21  ~'  difficulty  putting  a  specific  tiae  fraae  on  it,  but  it 

22  happened  shortly  before  you  actually  left  for  Washington 

23  for  consultations,  and  you  gave  us,  at  ay  request,  and 

24  you  promptly  assisted  us,  you  sent  a  cable  that  was  for 

25  us  of  dates  fj^   which  you  were  In  Washington. 


972 


\mmm 


21 


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25 


A    I  think  th«  Boat  llkaly  tla«  would  probably 
bava  baan  In  Oacasbar  o£  '84,  but  it  could  bava  baan  in 
March  or  April  of  '85.  To  pinpoint  that,  bava  you  avar 
tha^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Kraport? 
MR.  SMILJANICR:   Off  tha  racord. 
(A  diacuaaion  vaa  bald  off  tha  racord.) 
MR.  SMZUAMICH:   On  tha  racord. 
BY  MR.  SMIUAlflCH:   (Raauminq) 
Q    Ifby  don't  you  go  ahaad  and  tall  ua,  than, 
axactly  «rtiat  you  can  racall  about  aomaona  coaing  to  you 
and  aaking  you  to  do  aoaathing? 
A    Soaatima  during  that 


■a  to  Ba  and  aaid  that  ha  had  baan 
contact  ad  by  a  group  ^^^^^^^^H  who  vara  angagad 
althar  in  aoliciting  or  racaivlng  aaaistanca  for  tha 
centraa,  that  that  group  had  infomation  about  a  donation 
and  viahad  to  affact  dalivary. 

Thara  waa  a  problaB  about  i^ara  dalivary  could 
ba  affactad  and  thay  wimtad  to  hava  a  docunant 
transmitted,  to  tha  beat  of  my  knovladga,  to  tha  contras' 


973 


1 

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25 


laskad  If  I  would  pass  this  docuaant 
on.   Z  said  Z  would  pass  tha  docuaant  on,  and  aithar  ha 
suggaatad  or  Z  thought  ot   0111a.   At  that  point  Z  had 
haard  anough  ruaors  of  Cilia's  activitlaa  in  connactlon 
with  privata  support  for  tha  eontras  that  Z  thought  ha 
would  ba  a  usaful  addrass.   Z  thinX  that  it  was 
spacifically  askad,  as  Z  racall,  that  aayba  tha  docuaant  . 
should  go  to  Calaro  and  that  Cilia  was  tha  only  parson  Z 
Icnaw  who  had  a  contact  with  Calaro. 

Zn  any  avant,  Z  told  hia  that  Z  would  ba  glad 
to  pass  it  on,  that  Z  was  going  to  ba  in  contact  soon.   I 
caaa  to  Washington,  callad  Cilia  on  tha  phona.  Ha 
ratumad  ay  call.   Z  said  Z  had  a  docuaant  that  ha  would 
undarstand  tha  purposa  of  but  that  tha  paopla  who  had 
givan  it  to  as  wantad  it  passad  on  to  Calaro.  Ha  said  ha 
would  do  so,  and  Z  think  Z  sant  it  to  hia  by  a  aassanger 
ia  a  saalad  anvalopa  to  his  offica  at  tha  Whita  Housa. 

Ha  latar  told  aa  ha  had  racaivad  it,  callad  ma 
back  and  thankad  aa  for  passing  it  on,  and  said  ha  would 
ansura  it  would  gat  to  its  dastination.  Tha  dooiaant 
containad  a  list  of  ailitary  aquipaant  which,  to  tha  bast 
of  ay  Icnowladga,  purportad  to  ba  avail«ibla  for  support  of 


ijNttjmw 


974 


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23 


thm   contra*,  I  think  cither  froa  a  prlvata  aourc*  or  a 
foralgn  govamaantal  aourca.  That  was  not  raally  clear 
In  ay  alnd,  although,  as  I  told  you,  tha  listing  of 
natarial  lad  na  to  guass  froa  tha  way  in  which  it  waa 
dascribad,  tha  noaanclatura  usad,  that  it  was  possibly  a 
j^^^^^^^^H  source  of  support  for  tha 

It  contained  a  fairly  significant  listing  of 
stuff,  soaething  that  I  think  you  could  judge  would  be 
available  to  support  4,000  or  9,000  aan,  not  juat  a 
coapany  or  so. 


Whether  it  identified! 
I  don't  know,   z  don't  recall.   But  the  listing  was 
indeed,  I  think  froa  the  basis  of  having  read  the  two,  an 
identical  list  to  the  one  that  Z  had  passed  on. 

Q    How  Buch  tiae  elapsed  between  when  you  got 
this  docuaent  to  Colonel  North  and  when  you  saw  the 
intelligence? 

A    Z  would  say  within  a  week  or  two.  That  was 
one  of  the  reasons  why  Z  didn't  do  as  Z  normally  would 
have  done,  to  the  best  of  ay  knowledge,  inforaed  the 
Departaent,  because  Z  was  about  to  do  it  when  Z  saw  this 
document.   Z  said,  well,  they  already  have  that 


m,o^' 


975 


uimm 


24 


inforaatlon;  X  don't  n««d  to  div«  Into  It. 

Q    Do  you  racall  wh«thT  or  not  thia  docuaant  or 
your  conversations  vltl^^^^^^^^^^^^|  Indicatsd  in  any 
way  vhsthar  this  was  going  to  b«  a  sals  of  vsapons  or  a 
donation  of  vsapons? 

A    To  tha  bast  of  ay  rscollsction,  it  appaarad  to 
b«  a  donation,  althou^  it  aay  havs  had  two  parts.   It 
■ay  havs  bsan  a  sals  by  ths  supplisr  against  a  donation 
to  pay  for  it  by  soas  othsr  privats  seorcs.   it  kind  of 

10  sticks  in  ay  mind  that  it  vas  soasthing  Ilka  that.  So 

11  thars  may  havs  bssn  aors  partiss  than  just  kind  of  a 

12  donor  supplisr. 

13  Q    Lst  as  undsrstand  that.   Z  understand  you 

14  don't  havs  a  clsar  rscollsction  of  this. 

15  A    Z  don't,  no. 

16  Q    But  what  you'rs  saying  is  it  could  possibly 

17  havs  baan  a  sals  of  tha  squipasnt,  but  bassd  upon  a 

18  donation,  tha  aonias  coaing  froa  privata  donations  rathar 

19  than  froa  out  of  tha  pockats  of  tha  contras. 

20  A    Yas.  And  it's  possibls  that  tha  donor  or 

21  dmors  vara  locatad  in  tha  saas  country  as  ths  ssllsrs. 

22  In  othsr  words,  it  vas  a  closad  dsal.   Tha  aonsy  aay  not 

23  havs  coas  froa  ths  govsmaant  or  tha  aanufacturar.  Monay 

24  aay  hava  coaa  froa  othar  supplisrs  or  froa  othsr  sourcas 

25  vithin  tha  country,  and  that  tha  tvo  caas  togsthsr  to  tha 


976 


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25 


wMsra 


25 


••crlb«  who  this  group 


centra*. 
Q 

A    B«  said  that  th«y  v«r«  a  group  of  paopl*  who 
war*  aupportars  of  tha  contraa.   I  had  tha  lapraaalon 
that  it  alght  hava  involvad  only  Nlcaraguana  or  It  night 
hava  involvad  Nicaraguana  uid^^^^^^^^K    Ha  nay  hava 
avan  aantionad  nanaa  which  at  tha  tiaa  rang  balls,  but  it 
doasn't  stick  in  ay  haad. 

Q    Thay  vara  waapons? 

A    A  coabination  of  waapcna  and  aupport 
aquipaant , 


Taka  a  aonant  and  think.  Do  you  racall 
anything  alsa  that  sight  halp  ua  idantify  it  if  va  aver 
saa  it? 

A    No.   I  said  to  you  bafora  that  tha 
idantification  of  tha^^^^^that  wars  balng  provided  was 
ona  of  tha  things  that  lad  aa  to  baliava  thay  wara 
poasibly^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^and   can't      you 
exactly  why 

Lranga  a  ball.   I  had,  during  a  previous  part  of  ny 
career,  been  engaged  in  the  long  discusaions  leading  up 


977 


looinr 


1  ^^^^^ 

2  Q    Old  th«  docmant  or  did  your  discuaslona  vlth^ 

^^^^^^^^^^^^Hgiv*  you  any  inforaatlon  wb«r«  th« 

4  aatarlal  was  currently  located? 

5  K         Y«a.   I  had  th«  laprasslon  that  th«  aatarlal 

6  was  located  aoa*  distance  and  that  they  were 

7  conteaplatlng  sea  delivery,  and  that  they  had  discussed 

8  or  asked  about  whether  ports  in  countries  like^^^^^^H 
^^^^^^^^^Hcould  be  used  to  land  the  equipaent  in  order 

10  to  transfer  it  to  the  contras.  That  was  one  of  the 

11  things  they  wanted  the  dociment  passed  to  the  contra 

12  directorate  or  leadership  in  order  to  try  to  determine. 

13  Q    Now  it  sounds  froa  your  general  description  of 

14  these  events  that  there  didn't  seea  to  be  any  urgent 

15  immediacy  to  transmitting  this  infomation,  because  it 

16  sounds  as  though,  well,  you  were  going  to  Washington  soon 

17  and  then  when  you  got  there  you  had  it  delivered  to 

18  Colonel  North  rather  than  as  soon  as  getting  it  nobody 

19  asked  you  to  pick  up  the  telephone  and  call  right  away. 

20  A    No. 

21  Q    Do  you  recall  that  there  was  any  sense  of  tine 

22  that  could  pass? 

23  A    Z  recall  there  was  a  kind  of  aediua  sense  of 

24  urgency,  but  not  such  that  people  wanted  ne  to  put  it  in 

2  5  cables  or  to  pick  up  the  phone  and  call  somebody  about 

'VA 


WM 


978 


UNCutssm 


27 


1  it.   I  think  it  also  eaa«  to  ■•  at  •  tia«  that  Z  was 

2  about  to  go  to  Washington,  so  v«  vara  talking  in  taras  of 

3  days  and  vaaks,  not  hours. 

4  Q    Nov  why  would  it  not  b«  your  noraal  practica, 

5  what  Z  would  assuaa  would  ba  your  normal  practica,  to 
tako  this  inforaation  fr(»^^^^^^^^^Hand  put  it 

7  into  a  cabla  that  day  and  transalt  it  on  to  Washington 

8  for  dalivary  to  Colonal  North,  saying  would  you  plaasa 

9  pass  tha  following  aassaga  to  Colonal  North? 

10  A    Wall,  first  Z  was  not  sura  to  whoa  it  should 

11  ba  passad.  Sacondly,  Z  was  not,  until  Z  considarsd  it 

12  furthar.  Thirdly,  it  was  not  th«  kind  of  thing  that  Z 
1.3  would  noraally  put  in  a  cabla. 

14  Q    Why  is  that? 

15  A    Z  think  bacausa  it  involvad  a  sansitiva 

16  privata  oparation  and  not  a  public  ona. 

17  . Q    Now  you  don't  racall  whathar  or  not  it  was 

^^^^^^^^^^^Bwho  spacifically  askad  you  to  ralay  this 

19  to  Colonal  North  or  whathar  Colonal  North  was  soaabody 

20  yea  suggastad? 

21  A    Z  cannot  racall.   Z'a  raally  sorry.  Ha  aay 

22  bava  said  only  can  you  pass  this  on  to  soaabody  %rtio  is  in 

23  touch  with  that  group  and  Z  thought  of  Ollia,  or  it  is 

24  possibla  ha  caaa  up  with  Ollia's  naaa.   Z  just  do  not 

25  know. 


UNcmm 


979 


mmm 


28 


1  Q    Now,  what  Colonel  North  has  to  say  about 

2  things  has  b««n  such  In  ths  nsws  latsly.   If  you  can 

3  subtract  all  that  fron  your  sind  —  I  don't  )cnow  If 

4  you'vs  b««n  kasplng  up  with  It,  but  If  you  could  describe 

5  for  Be  what  general  impression  you  had  of  what  Colonel 

6  North  was  doing,  what  his  activities  were  back  then  that 

7  would  have  led  you  to  believe  that  he  sight  be  the  person 

8  to  contact. 

9  A    Sure.   The  only  general  iapression  Z  had  then 

10  —  and  Z  have  not  really  kept  up  with  what's  been  going 

11  on  except  peripherally  —  was  that  one  way  or  another  Z 

12  had  heard,  and  Z  can't  tell  you  where  —  it  nay  have  been 

13  froa  the  southern  comnand;  it  may  have  been  from  the 

14  military  group  commander;  it  may  have  just  been  on  the 

15  rumor  circuit  from  somebody  else  —  that  Ollie  was 

16  actively  engaged  in  either  supporting  or  encouraging 

17  private  support,  and  perhaps  foreign  government  support, 

18  for  the  contras  in  the  absence  of  being  able   to  support 

19  them  directly  under  the  Boland  Amendment,  and  that 

20  somewhere  along  the  line  Z  had  the  impression  that  people 

21  believed  this  was  a  legal  activity  on  the  part  of  the 

22  NSC. 

23  Those  two  things  stick  in  my  mind,  and  that's 

24  the  reason,  if  Z  suggested  Ollie,  that's  the  reason  why 

25  Ollie 's  name  came  up  in  my  head. 


mmsm 


980 


IWCUSSffl 


29 


1  Q    Now,  on  th«  subject  of  th«  legality  of  third 

2  country  solicitation  during  thla  time  perlo<^,  this  would 

3  have  been  when  Tony  Motley  was  Assistant  Secretary;  Is 

4  that  right? 

5  A    That's  correct. 

6  Q    Ambassador  Motley  has  told  us  that  It  was  his 

7  belief  during  that  time  frame  that  third  country 

8  solicitation  was  not  something  that  the  State  Department 

9  should  certainly  do  unless  specifically  authorized  In 

10  legislation,  and  that  It  was  his  general  impression  that 

11  It  was  the  belief  with  the  people  he  dealt  with  at  his 

12  level  that  maybe  the  NSC  could  engage  in  this  activity, 

13  but  prob2Lbly  not,  and  it's  something  people  should  stay 

14  away  from. 

15  Do  you  know  where  you  got  a  general  sense  that 

16  perhaps  this  was  something  that  the  NSC  could  engage  in? 

17  A    I  don't  really  know  and  can't  pinpoint  it. 

18  The  only  thing  I  can  say  is  that  somewhere  in  my  head  at 

19  that  period  I  had  heard  this  view  expressed. 

20  Q    You  don't  remember  from  whom? 

21  A    Z  really  cannot;  I'm  sorry. 

22  Q    Do  you  recall  whether  you  had  any  information, 
2  3  rumors,  hints,  anything  like  that,  as  to  any  specific 

2  4  third  countries  that  might  have  been  solicited  or 

25  actually  made  contributions  on  behalf  of  the  contras? 


mmms 


981 


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25 


DNCiiSiii) 


30 


No.  This  pl«c«  of  papar,  In  what  appeared  to 
iaay  also  have  stssoBSd  froa  ruaors  that I 
[may  hav*  b««n  involved.   Soaewhere  in  ay  head 
iticks.   Beyond  that,  there  were  ruaors  of I 
support,  not  generally  known  but  widely  enough,  and 
whether  they  were  out  of  the  press  or  other  places,  I 

know.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^H^H^I  but  Z'a 

But,  you  know,  they  were  in  a  very  kind  of  no 
substantiation  basis. 

Q    When  you  discussed  this  with  Colonel  North  did 
you  discuss  it  with  hia  on  the  telephone? 

A    Telephone;  Z  did  not  aeet  hia. 

Q    Did  he  give  you  any  indication  that  he  was 
expecting  this  information  in  any  way? 

A    No,  he  did  not. 

Q    Did  he  say  emything  to  you  about  where  it 
aight  be  coaing  froa? 

A    No.  He  just  thanked  ae  for  passing  it  on.  He 
said  he  understood  what  it  was  and  he  would  take  care  of 
it. 

Q    And,  as  you  understood  it,  what  he  was  saying 
he  would  do  would  be  to  pass  this  on  to  Adolfo  Calero? 

A    I  understand,  yes. 

Q    And  did  you  hear  back  froa  Colonel  North  that 
he  had  in  fact  done  so? 


UNibtSSIflED 


982 


uNcussm 


31 


1  A    I  h«ard  back  froa  hla  that  h«  had  racalvad  It, 

2  and  X  think  althar  heard  back  in  that  ccnvaraatlon, 

3  bacaus*  thar*  vara  two,  that  h«  had  paasad  It  alraady  or 

4  would  soon  do  so. 

5  Q    To  Mr.  Calaro? 

6  A    Right,  Mr.  Calaro  and/ or  collaaguas.   Ha  was 

7  not  spacific  in  tha  quastion  of  whathar  it  got  to  Calaro 

8  through  intaraadiarias  or  anything  alsa.   It  was  just 

9  navar  raisad. 

10  Q    Did  ha  aantion  tha  naaa  of  Robart  Owan  to  you 

11  in  any  of  your  discussions? 

12  A    I  navar  haard  of  Robart  Owan. 

13  Q    First  of  all,  this  was  a  physical  docunant 

14  that  you  took  back  with  you  from  El  Salvador? 

15  A    That's  corract,  a  typawrittan  physical 

16  docunant . 

17  Q    That  you  got  fron| 

18  A    Froa] 

19  Q    Now,  did  this  docuaant  indicata  or  did  you 

20  bava  any  iaprassion  of  an  ovarall  dollar  valua? 

21  A    My  iaprassion  was  that  thara  may  wall  hava 

22  baan  a  dollar  valua  attachad  or^^^^^^K  discussed 

23  dollar  valua,  which  was  in  tha  aillions,  not  in  tha 

24  hundreds  of  thousands. 

25  Q    When  you  say  aillions,  can  you  be  any  acre 


wmms 


983 


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25 


UNCussra 


4MI 


32 


•p«cl£ic? 

A    Low  allllons.  Ilk*  on«-flgur«  Billiona  —  lov 
on«-flgur«  ■llllons. 

Q    You  mean  Ilk*  $1  ■llllon  or  $2  Billion,  not 
$30  Billion  or  $40  Billion? 

A    On«,  two,  thr««,  four,  £lv«,  not  30,  40,  50. 

Q    And  than  ahortly  tharaaftai 
paaaad  your  daak  that  had  tha  aaaa  listing? 

A    Right.  This  caBa  in  tha  forB  of  a| 
raport,  what  va 

Q    And  you  haard  nothing  Bora  about  it? 

A    Nothing  aora  aftar  that. 

Q    Oid^^^^^^^^avar  discuss  it  with  you  any 
furthar  aftar  that? 

Co  tha  bast  of  by  knowladga,  no. 

If  ha  hadn't  sought  aa  out, 
I  probably  wouldn't  hava  saan  bia  in  tha  natura  of  ay 
noraal  aocial  contacts.   It's  not  iapossibla  that  wa  aat 
again,  but  I  don't  racall  any  furthar  discussion. 
Possibly  I  saw  hia  and  said,  wall,  wa  paaaad  that  on. 

Q    And  during  this  antira  tiaa  fraaa  thara's  no 
cabla  traffic  that  would  hava  baan  ganaratad  by  you  to 
raflact  any  of  this? 

A    No. 


UNCIISMD 


984 


UIWSKP 


33 


X 

2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


Q    Nov,  let's  go  on  to  an  area  you  just  touchsd 
upon  a  BOBsnt  ago.   During  your  tsnurs  as  AMbassador  in 
El  Salvador  thsra  was  an  oparatlon  —  and  this  is  a 
classified  dsposition  —  thsra  was  am  operation  — 

A    Z  hops  it  is. 

Q    It  is.   In  fact,  it  will  b«  classified  at  Top 
Secret/ Codeword . 

There  was  an  operation  referred  to  as 


985 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


UNcussiV' 

to  El  Salvador,  did  you  hav*  any  Icnovladg*  of  or 
connection  vlth  that  operation? 

k        Nona  vhataoavar. 

Q    So  you  didn't  avan  )cnov  about  it? 

A     NC 


34 


Q    And  your  briafing  on  tha  aubjact,  than,  waa 
all  aftar  tha  fact? 
A    Corract. 

Who  briafad  vou  on  it? 


986 


UNCLASSIHEO 


JJ^aJ/sD        /J 


mmm 


987 


1 

2 
3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


uNcyi^n 


4 


39 


unldl*  gossip,  I'll  talk 


Q    w«  don't  n««d  to  trad*  in  just  Idls  gossip  or 
ruaors. 

A    If  you  havs  i 
about  It. 

Q    Arm   thsrs  any  of  thass  that  you  would  place 
any  grsatsr  crsdancs  on  than  othars?  Lst's  put  It  that 
way. 

A    No. 


988 


UNCUSSinED 


'JlUSSiflEI 


989 


uimssiBff**" 


41 


A    Th«  aua  total  of  what  I  think  la  tha  bard 
information  and  aaai-bard  Inforaation  la  containad  in  a 
nuabar  of  cablaa  which  Z  aant  to  tha  Stata  Oapartaant 


1 1  would  aay  thcaa 
ara  auch  aora  authoritativa  than  ay  currant  racollaction, 
probably  a  bit  aora  inforaativa,  aa  to  what  thay  aaid  to 
aa  and  %rhat  Z  aaid  to  thaa. 

0    And  what  tiaa  fraaa  ara  thaaa  cablaa? 

A    Thoaa  would  all  b«  peat-Novaabar  1986,  poat- 
publie  ravalation. 

Q    Shortly  tharaaftar? 

A    A  aariaa  coaing  froa  Movaabar,  Oacaabar, 
January,  Pabruary,  March,  p^rhapa  April. 

Q    Now,  whan  you  arrivad  in  Zaraal  aa  Aabaaaador 
in  July  of  1985,  thia  waa  juat  alaoat  tha  vary  baginning 
of  tha  whola  aariaa  of  avanta  involving  aras  aalaa  to 
Iran,  first  by  Zaraal  and  than  diractly  by  tha  Unitad 
Stataa.   Zt  probably  would  ba  aiaplaat  if  Z  could  just 
aak  you  to  giva  aa,  in  an  ovarall  fora,  what  inforaation 
eaaa  to  your  attantion  as  this  sariaa  of  avants  wara 
unfolding. 

Z  undaratand  that  you  ara  not  a  participant  in 
thaa  and  you  wara  not  involvad  in  it. 

A    No,  Z  was  axcludad. 


mmm 


990 


1 

2 
3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


\(H8a&S*5® 


42 


Q    Obviously  things  would  crop  up  that  would  b«  a 
clu*  or  giva  soaa  indication  that  soaathing  was 
happening . 

A    Sonawhara  in  that  pariod  tha  Israali 
nawspapars  printad  a  atory  about  Oava  Kiacha  having  aet  a 
high  laval  Aaarican  NSC  parsonality  in  London.   Kiacha 
wouldn't  adait  anything  about  it  and  daniad  tha  story  to 
tha  prass.   Thay  didn't  tall  aa  or  wouldn't  tall  aa 
anything  about  it. 

In  Saptaabar  of  1985,  tha  Israali  praas  and 
tha  world  prass  carriad  a  story  about  an  airerag^that 
laft  Iran,|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■and  procaaded  to 
land  in  Israal  at  Ban  Gurion  airport  for  rapairs.   Then 
wa  had  inforaation  that  it  laft  Ban  Gurion  and  went  to 
loaeplaca  reaota,  and  than  aayba  latar  to 


But  wa  askad  for  inforaation  on  it  through 
Agancy  channels  and  ware  told  they  had  nothing  to  add  and 
don't  ask  any  acre. 

Q    This  was  tha  DC-8? 

A    Tha  DC-8,  correct,  a  U.S.  chartered  aircraft. 
Later  on  —  and  I  can't  put  a  tiae  on  it  —  I  had 
inforaation  that  Ollie  had  been  in  Israel.   That  is 
possibly  as  lata  as  tha  May  Tehran  thing  in  '86.   And 


DNttJSSIFIED 


991 


1 

2 
3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


\m0Lt&si® 


43 


Olli*  had  aslcsd  ■•  for  h«lp  at  on*  «taq«  with  an  Aaarican 
of  L«ban«a« 


km   a  raault  of  0111a '•  raquaat  Z  apoka  to 
Prima  Mlniatar  Paraa'  ataff  and  aakad  thaa  if  they  would 
facilitata  thia  guy 'a  antry  — >  that  ia,  not  bounca  hla 
around  at  tha  airport. 

Q    Excuaa  aa.  Nhan  traa  that? 
A    Hall,  Z  can't  tall  you  apacifically.   Could 
hava  baan  apring  or  auaaar  of  '86.   Subaaquantly,  bafora 
thia  thing  brolca,  Z  had  a  call  froa^^^^^^^^Hon  tha 
phona  juat  aaying  ha  waa  in  to%m.   Ha  waa  in  Jaruaalan.  Z 
waa  in  Tal  Aviv.  Ha  waa,  Z  think,  croaaing  tha  bridga  to 
Jordan,  but  Z'm  not  cartain.   And  wa  triad  to  arrimga  to 
gat  togathar  but  oxir  schadulaa  wouldn't  work. 

Ha  Z'a^^^^^^^^H  Z 

know  who  you  ara  and  Z'd  lika  to  hava  a  chance  to  chat. 
Z  think  ha  waa  aakad  to  ba  in  touch  with  ma  in  case 
anything  happanad  to  him.   But  that  waa  all. 

But  tha  focua  of  this  waa  al] 
loot  oriented  toward  other  aspacta  of  this" 
activity.   Z  think  that's  pretty  much  aort  of  what  bits 


BNCDOTH) 


992 


1 

2 
3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


|)NEyiS«D 


44 


and  pl«c«a  I  plclc«d  up,  just  tb«  tlnlaat  traces  of 
activity  going  on. 

Q    So,  going  back  to  Novsabsr  of  1985,  you  bad  no 
Icnovlsdgs  or  information  of  any  kind  that  Israel  was 
engaged  in  the  sale  of  HAWK  sissilas  to  Iran? 

A    Ho.   I'll  tell  you  one  other  piece  of 
inforaation  that  was  given  to  ■•  was  a  f r«w  hour^before 
Benjaain  Heir  was  I  was  told^^^^^^^^^^^B 

I^^^^^^^^^^^^^Khat    was  going  to  be  released  and 
that  Secretary  of  State  Shultx  was  fully  inforaed^^^^^H 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^^^^^^^^Hbe^^ 
wanted  se  to  know. 

Q    Did  he  indicate  that  Israel  had  anything  to  do 
with  the  fact  of  the  release? 

A    He  did  not.   His  statement  to  me  could  have 
come  from  just  good  intelligence  as  well  as  participation 
in  any  activity. 

Q    So  you  didn't  assume  from  the  fact  that  you 
were  getting  it  from  him  that  there  was  some  Israeli  role 
in  this? 

A    I  did  not,  no.   In  fact,  the  implication  was 


There's  been  testimony  that  in  connection  with 


ufitmiFe 


993 


UNCUSSIEIED 


45 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


th«  Nov«ab«r  shlpacnt  of  HAWK  aissll**  Israel  was  going 
to  b«  looking  to  th«  United  Stataa  for  raplanlshaant  of 
ita  supply.   Separata  and  apart  froa  thinking  this  had 
zmything  to  do  with  hostagas,  do  you  recall  any 
discussions  or  indications  froa  the  Israelis  during  that 
tiae  fraae  or  shortly  thereafter  that  they  were  going  to 
be  asking  for  soae  additional  security  assistance  in  the 
way  of  HAWK  aissiles? 

A    Hone  in  the  tiae  fraae  you  have  talked  about. 


A    After  the  fact,  after  the  whole  thing  became 
public. 

Q    And  you  were  completely  unaware  of  the  May 
Tehran  trip  itself? 

A    Except  that  I  had  this  possible  reflection  of 
Ollie's  presence  in  Israel  around  or  eUsout  that  time, 
which  I  then  later  connected  back  possibly  to  the  May 


UNCtftSStFIED 


994 


uNMsra 


46 


1  Tehran  vlalt. 

2  Q    Old  you  hav*  any  discussions  with  Morth  vhsn 

3  h*  was  in  Zsraal? 

4  A    Absolutsly  not.   I  asan,  h«  want  out  of  his 

5  way  to  make  carta in  nobody  knav. 

6  Q    Did  you  know  at  that  tiaa  or  vara  you  asked  to 

7  facilitate  in  any  way  the  presence  of  General  Secord  and 

8  his  group? 

9  A    No. 

10  Q         Who  reaained  in  Tel  Aviv  irtiile  the  party  vent 

11  on  to  Tehran? 

12  A  No. 

13  Q    And  certainly  you  had  no  indications  from  Mr. 

14  HcFarlane  that  he  was  passing  through  or  in  the  region? 

15  A    No. 

16  Q    Then  the  events  that  took  place  in  August, 

17  September,  October  of  '86  having  to  do  with  the  further 

18  sale  of  TOW  missiles  that  led  to  Jacobson's  release,  you 

19  had  no  contemporaneous  information? 

20  A    No.   The  only  thing  ve  were  aware  of  was  these 

21  numerous  stories  of  Danish  ship  deliveries  which  were 

22  appearing  in  the  press  around  about  that  time. 

23  Q    Is  there  anything  else  you  can  think  of  to  add 

24  about  anything  that  came  to  your  attention  that  has 

25  anything  to  do  with  the  developing  Iran  arms  transaction? 


msmrn 


995 


10 


19 


UNdASSn 


47 


1  A    Not  in  a  before-the-fact  ■ansa. 

2  MR.  SMILJANZCH:   Thoaa  ara  all  tha  quaatlons  I 

3  hava.  Mr.  fryaan  aay  hava  aoaa. 

4  MR.  FRYMAN:   I  hava  no  quaatlona. 

5  MR.  SMILJANICH:   OJcay.   That  will  complete  the 

6  dapoaition,  air.   I  want  to  thank  you  for  making  yourself 

7  availeOsla  to  both  Conaittees.  He  appreciate  your 

8  information  and  va  will  hava  a  tranacript  prepared  of 

9  this. 
(Whereupon,  at  9:11  a. a.,  the  taking  of  tha 

11  Inatant  dapoaition  ceased.) 

12  

13  Signature  of  the  witness 

14  Subscribed  and  Sworn  to  before  ae  this  day  of 

15  ,  1987. 

16 


17  Notary  Public 

18  My  Coaaission  Expires:   ^ 


mmm 


996 


UNCIASSIHED 


CERTIFICATE  OF  REPORTER 

I,  mCRAL  ANN  SCHAFER,  th«  officer  b«for«  whom  the  foregoing 
deposition  was  taken,  to  hereby  certify  that  the  witness 
whose  testimony  appears  in  the  foregoing  deposition  was  duly 
sworn  by  me;  that  the  testiaony  of  said  witness  was  taken  by 
me  to  the  best  of  my  ability  and  thereafter  reduced  to 
typewriting  under  my  direction;  that  said  deposition  is  a 
true  record  of  the  testimony  given  by  said  witness;  that  I  am 
neither  counsel  for,  related  to,  nor  employed  by  any  of  the 
parties  to  the  action  in  which  this  deposition  was  taken«  and 
further  that  X  am  not  a  relative  or  employee  of  any  attorney 
or  counsel  employed  by  the  parties  thereto,  nor  financially 
or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcome  of  the  action. 


TnuhaiCLAri 


'  Public 


Notary 
in  and  for  the  District  of  Columbia 


My  Commission  Expires:   February  28,  1990 


997 


16 


18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
5 


■iUilPJ  APfllTirn. 


1     DINKEL  ^ 

MILTON  ''^''i  Oelh-r^ 


3 

4  DEPOSITION  OF  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER 

5  Saturday,  May  2,  1987 


6  United  States  Senate, 
Select  Committee  to  Investigate  Covert 

7  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran, 
Washington,  D.  C. 

8 

9 

10 

11  The  Committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  9:05  a.m.,  in 

12  Room  901,  Hart  Senate  Offioe  Building,  Arthur  Liman 

13  presiding. 

14  On  behalf  of  the  Senate  Select  Committee:   Arthur  L. 


15     Liman. 


On  behalf  of  the  House  Select  Committee:   John  Nields 


17     and  George  Van  Cleve. 


On  behalf  of  the  witness:   Richard  W.  Beckler  and 
Joseph  T.  Small,  Jr.,  Fulbright  &  Jaworski,  1150  Connecticut 
Avenue,  N.W.,  Washington,  D.  C.   20036. 

Also  present:   Senator  Rudman,  Representative  Stokes, 
and  Representative  Courter. 


mm  »<»?»icitrt 


998 


10 

11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


IMCUISSIFIIir 


CONTENTS 


DEPOSITION  OF:  PAGE 

JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER, 

By  Mr.  Liman  4 

102 
105 
118 

By  Mr.  Nields  98 

104 


®      By  Mr.  Van  Cleve  230 

9 


EXHIBITS 


POINDEXTER  EXHIBIT  No.: 

PAGE 

1 

9 

2 

14 

3 

16 

4 

18 

5 

IC 

6 

19 

7 

20 

8 

31 

9 

46 

10 

82 

11 

93 

12 

105 

13 

143 

14 

164 

15 

164 

16 

176 

18 

199 

19 

204 

20 

205 

21 

207 

22 

208 

23 

,  214 

iiMM  Acoinirn 


999 


11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


mmm 


1  MR.  LIMAN:   Why  don't  we  go  on  the  record. 

2  MR.  RODMAN:   We  will  go  on  the  record. 

3  This  is  a  proceeding  before  the  United  States 

4  Senate  and  the  United  States  House  of  Representatives, 

5  the  Select  Committees  representing  both  bodies;  represented 
g    here  in  the  Senate  by  myself,  Warren  Rudman  of  New 

7    Hampshire. 

g  MR.  STOKES:   Louis  Stokes  of  Ohio. 

9  MR.  COURTER:   Congressman  Jim  Courter  from 

IQ    New  Jersey  from  the  House. 

MR.  RUDMAN:   I  think  what  we  will  do  at  this 
time  is  I  will  administer  the  oath  to  you  for  this 
proceeding  and  then  we  will  go  through  a  couple  of 
procedural  matters,  and  then  the  two  Congressmen  and  I, 
under  our  previous  agreement,  intend  to  leave. 

Would  you  please  stand  and  raise  your  right 


hand? 


{Witness  sworn.) 

MR.  RUDMAN:   Thank  you,  Admiral 

Arthur? 


iiMOi  ACCiEirn 


1000 


41AIAI JLCCIUUL 


1  Whereupon, 

2  ADMIRAL  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER 

3  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 

4  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

5  EXAMINATION  BY  COUNSEL  FOR 

6  THE  SENATE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

7  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

8  Q    Admiral,  have  you  received  a  subpoena  from  the 

9  Senate  for  the  production  of  certain  records? 

10  A    I  have,  sir. 

11  Q    Do  you  have  any  of  those  records  with  you? 

12  A    Yes. 

13  Q    Would  you  produce  them? 

14  A    I  have  them  with  me,  but  at  this  point,  I  decline 

15  to  turn  them  over  based  on  my  constitutional  rights  under 
1g    the  Fifth  Amendment. 

17  MR.  RUDMAN:   Admiral  Poindexter,  in  this 

1g    proceeding,  the  United  States  Congress,  the  Senate  and 
ig    House  committees,  have  applied  to  the  United  States  District 
Court  for  an  order  granting  you  limited  use  immunity  to 
compel  your  testimony  before  this  proceeding  this  morning. 
I  will  hand  you  a  copy  of  this  order,  which  I  believe  your 
counsel  have  both  read,  and  it  will  be  incorporated  into 
the  record  at  this  time.  .' 

(The  order  follows:) 

icommitUMIJJrJI  CCIC1EIL__ 


1001 


UNiDISSIRBr 


MR.  BECKLER:   Is  there  an  order  from  the  House? 

MR.  RUDMAN:   This  order  was  — 

MR.  LIMAN:   The  questions,  the  production  at  this 
point  will  be  to  the  Senate.   The  House  is  bringing  over 
its  copy,  which  has  been  signed  this  morning  by  Judge 
Robinson. 

MR.  BECKLER:   You  mean  before  we  start  the 
questions  -- 

MR.  LIMAN:   Before  the  House  puts  any  questions 
to  you,  you  will  have  their  order  and  their  direction. 
There  is  an  order.   They  can  give  you  the  same  direction 
and  you  will  have  the  order  before  you  respond  to  any 
questions  from  the  House. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Are  they  coming  over  here 
imminently? 

MR.  LIMAN:   They  are  coming  over  imminently. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Would  you  produce  the  records? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Yes.   Let  me  just  make  a  statement 
here,  Arthur. 

We  are  turning  —  Admiral  Poindexter  is  turning 
over  these  records  to  you  by  previous  agreement  with  your 
committee,  one  of  our  committee's  counsels,  Mr.  Belnick. 
We  told  him  we  would  be  carrying  this  material  over.   There 
were  several  boxes  of  other  material,  not  necessarily 


iiMPi  AQQinrn 


1002 


iHNSIiiSSIflEB' 


1  relevant,  but  which  are  available  for  your  inspection  at 

2  any  time. 

3  MR.  LIMAN:   Fine.   You  understand  you  are  being  — 

4  you  are  producing  these  under  the  direction  that  has  been 

5  given  by  both  the  Senate  and  the  House  pursuant  to  the 

6  order  of  limited  use  immunity? 

7  MR.  BECKLER:   Yes.   We  are  producing  these 

8  pursuant  to  the  order  of  use  immunity. 

9  MR.  LIMAN:   I  want  to  put  a  question. 

10  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

11  Q    Admiral,  are  you  familiar  with  any  of  the  sources 

12  of  funding  for  the  contras  after  the  Boland  Amendment  was 

13  adopted  in  October  of  1984? 

^4         A    Mr.  Liman,  I  respectfully  decline  to  answer  that 
15    under  the  —  my  constitutional  privileges. 
^g  MR.  RUDMAN:   Admiral,  under  the  order  that  has 

17    been  produced  for  compelling  your  testimony  under  a  grant 
13    of  limited  use  immunity  by  the  United  States  District  Court 
ig    obtained  by  both  the  United  States  Senate  and  the  United 
States  House  of  Representatives,  I  direct  you  on  behalf 
of  the  Senate  to  answer  that  question. 
THE  WITNESS:   Yes,  sir. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    You  understand,  sir,  that  you  are  goim^  —  you 
are  being  directed  to  answer  all  questions  that  are 

liMPi  nooiricn 


1003 


mmm 


responsive  to  our  inquiry? 

Would  you  give  him  that  direction,  Senator? 

MR.  RUD>iAN:   I  would  simply  state  that  I  would 
now  direct  you  at  this  time  to  answer  all  questions  put  to 
you  by  counsel  during  the  course  of  this  proceeding  pursuant 
to  that  order. 

MR.  LIMAN:   So,  for  the  purpose  of  this  proceeding, 
you  will  be  deemed  to  have  asserted  your  constitutional 
right  to  all  questions  and  to  have  received  the  same 
direction  from  Senator  Rudman  and  from  the  House. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  would  state  for  the  record,  not 
only  pursuant  to  an  order  of  immunity  but  pursuant  to  a 
subpoena  calling  for  our  appearance  here  this  morning, 
issued  both  by  the  House  and  the  Senate. 

MR.  RUDMAN:   I  believe  that  before  proceeding, 
in  order  to  keep  the  record  perfectly  clear,  that 
Congressman  Stokes  and  Congressman  Courter  join  me  in 
directing  youf  answer  on  behalf  of  the  House  of  Represen- 
tatives and  the  appropriate  order  which  has  been  signed  and 
will  be  produced  this  morning. 

I  believe,  pursuant  to  the  agreement,  unless 
Congressman  Courter  or  Congressman  Stokes  have  any 
comments  to  make,  under  agreement  with  counsel  and  the 
Independent  Counsel,  I  think  Members  of  Congress.' are  now 
going  to  withdraw. 

v.uMPiACCincn 


1004 


HtWU^W 


1  MR.  COURTER:   Before  we  withdraw,  i  would  just 

2  like  to  say  that  I  have  been  here  as  a  Member  of  the  House 

3  of  Representatives  and  duly  appointed,  and  I  concur  in  the 

4  representations  about  the  fact  that  the  House  is  similarly 

5  situated  as  the  Senate  and  we  have  the  same  understanding 

6  with  regard  to  all  of  the  proceedings,  and  our  order  will 

7  be  here  forthwith. 

8  MR.  BECKLER:   Thank  you. 

g  MR.  STOKES:   I  would  concur  in  the  remarks  made 

10  by  my  colleague,  Mr.  Courter . 

11  MR.  BECKLER:   Thank  you,  Mr.  Congressman. 

12  MR.  RUDMAN:   Thank  you.  Admiral. 

13  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

14  (Senator  Rudman,  Mr.  Stokes  and  Mr.  Courter 
withdrew  from  the  room. ) 

MR.  NIELDS:   Admiral  Poindexter,  I  am  presenting 
you  with  the  order  of  immunity  issued  by  the  court  today, 
pursuant  to  which  the  House  will  compel  your  testimony 
under  immunity. 

MR.  LIMAN:   He's  already  received  directions  to 
answer  from  the  Members. 

MR.  NIELDS:   I  understand.   I  met  them  on  the 
way  out. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Can  we  mark  as  Exhibit,  PoAndexter 
Exhibit  1  a  group  of  handwritten  notes  that  were  just 

»M^I  AQCICICn         


1005 


10 

11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


1  produced  by  Admiral  Poindexter. 

2  They  begin  with  Bates  numbers  that  start  with 

3  1  and  end  at  41. 

4  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  1  was 

5  marked  for  identification.) 

6  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

7  Q    Can  you  identify  what  Poindexter  Exhibit  1 

8  represents? 

9  A    Yes,  I  can.   They  are  copies  of  pages,  pertinent 
pages  out  of  a  £ive-by-seven  loose-leaf  book  that  I  used 
to  keep  my  personal  working  notes.   It  covers  the  time 
period  of  roughly  September,  '85,  through  April,  '86. 

This  was  a  notebook  that  I  carried  in  my 
briefcase  and  in  my  files  that  are  left  in  the  White  House, 
you  should  have  access  to  previous  pages  out  of  that  note- 
book. 

When  I  first  came  to  the  White  House,  I  started 
keeping  notes  on  steno  pads.   Sometime  --  I  forget  what 
year  it  was  --  I  changed  over  to  this  black  notebook.   I 
kept  notes  in  it  until  April  of  '86.   In  April  of  '86,  my 
deputy  became  ill  with  cancer.   I  found  that  I  was  so  busy 
that  I  quit  keeping  notes  with  the  exception  of  a  yellow 
pad,  and  those  pages  from  that  yellow  pad  that  I  would  have 
used  to  brief  the  President  on  should  be  in  my  files  in 
the  White  House. 


iiMHt  hf^mm 


1006 


tlNSUMI^ 


10 


1  Q  So   that   — 

2  A    When  I  left  the  White  House  in  early  December,  '86, 

3  the  black  notebook  was  in  my  briefcase.   That's  why  I  happen 

4  to  have  these. 

5  Q    So  that  the  Exhibit  1  represents  all  of  the  notes 

6  that  you  have  in  your  possession  responsive  to  our  subpoena? 

7  A    All  of  the  handwritten  notes.   The  other  material 

8  you  have  there  is  the  other  material  I  have  that's  related. 

9  But  this  represents  all  of  my  handwritten  notes 

10  from  my  work  book. 

11  MR.  BECKLER:   For  the  record,  so  it  is  clear,  of 

12  course,  those  notes  have  been  redacted.   Material  that  is 

13  not  responsive  to  the  subpoena  have  been  redacted  out. 
■J4  MR.  LIMAN:   Did  you  do  the  redaction? 

15  MR.  BECKLER:   Myself,  Joe  Small,  and  two  other 

16  members  of  our  law  firm  did  the  redaction.   As  we  made 

17  clear,  John,  for  your  benefit,  before  you  came  in,  that 

18  material  —  the  unredacted  portion,  if  you  will,  could  be 

19  made  available  for  inspection  by  some  appropriate  security 

20  officer,  whenever  you  want  to  do  it,  as  well  as,  once 

21  again  for  your  benefit,  John,  memorabilia-type  material. 

22  THE  WITNESS:   As  you  can  tell,  my  notes  in  my 

23  personal  notebook  are  very  cryptic,  often,  and  they  were 

24  meant  at  the  time  as  reminders  to  do  things  rather  than  as 

25  a  record  of  what  happened. 

iiiiAi  «Aoirer!!t 


1007 


HtUiSift 


11 


1  BY    MR.    LIMAN: 

2  Q    Did  you  in  the  period  that  you  were  deputy  to 

3  Mr.  .McFarlane  take,  notes  at  the  morning  briefings  with  the 

4  President? 

5  A     I  would,  and  in  fact,  some  of  the  notes  that  are 
5    in  here  would  fall  in  that  category  of  comments  that  I  had 
7    written  down;  but  I  did  not  in  those  morning  briefings  with 
g    the  President,  I  generally  did  not  take  long,  detailed 

g    notes.   They  were  more  topics  covered  or  questions  that  were 
1Q     asked  that  needed  to  be  followed  up  on. 
.i^         Q    What  was  the  purpose  of  taking  the  notes? 

A    Just  simply  to  —  if  we  wanted,  to  check  back  in 
the  future  to  see  if  the  President  had  been  briefed  on 
some  particular  item  or  more  often  than  not,  it  was  an 
action  list  for  me  of  things  to  follow  up  on.   If  the 
President  would  ask  some  question  or  the  Vice  President  or 
Don  Regan,  and  who  was  often  there  would  ask  a  question. 

Q    Were  the  notes  intended  by  you  to  memorialize 
decisions  that  the  President  made? 

A    No. 

Q    Or  action  that  was  taken? 

A    Generally  —  if  we  were  going  to  present  the 
President  with  a  decision  at  the  9:30  meeting,  we  would 
have  a  separate  paper  and  a  memo  associated  with  .that 
particular  issue  which  would  be  presented  to  him.'  So  his 


mn  jipoinrn 


1008 


iiHffUraiulBlb 


12 


1  decisions  on  most  issues  were  handled  by  paper,  often 

2  presented  and  discussed  at  the  9:30  meeting. 

3  Q    How  did  you  decide  what  you  would  record  in  the 

4  notes  and  what  you  wouldn't? 

5  A    It  was  a  judgment  call.   It  would  depend  on  how 

6  much  I  was  participating  in  the  discussion.   I  frankly 

7  find  it  difficult  to  participate  in  a  discussion  and  take 

8  notes;  and  later  on  when  I  became  National  Security  Adviser, 

9  what  I  would  do  is  before  the  9:30,  I  would  make  up  an 

10  agenda  of  items  that  I  wanted  to  discuss  with  him  and  then 

11  actually  during  the  meeting,  I  took  very  few  notes. 

12  Q    Did  you  ever  destroy  any  of  the  notes  that  you 

13  took  of  the  meetings  with  the  President? 

•^4         A    To  the  best  of  my  recollection  --  I  suppose  it's 
15    conceivable  at  some  point,  but  not  related  to  your  area  of 
1g    inquiry.   There  should  be  --  again  in  the  files  in  the 
17     White  House  or  the  NSC,  meetings  --  not  so  much  9:30 
Ig    meetings,  which  again  was  an  informal  time,  but  at  NSC  or 
•jQ    NSPG  meetings,  if  I  took  any  notes,  those  should  be  in  the 

files  that  are  left  in  the  White  House. 

MR.  BECKLER:   To  State  for  the  record,  if  I  may, 

the  Admiral,  of  course,  has  not  had  access  to  all  his 

records  since  he  left  the  White  House. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 


Q    Admiral,  were  there  occasions  in  the  morning 

in^ini  Aooirirn 


1009 


1 


25 


itdfili^llElffi' 


13 


briefings  when  you  chose  not  to  make  notes  because  the 

2  subject  was  one  of  particular  sensitivity? 

3  A    Yes.   That  is  certainly  the  case. 
Q    Give  me  examples  of  a  topic  that  you  would  not 

want  to  put  in  your  own  notes. 

A    Well  —  let  me  go  back  a  moment.   Generally  I 
f  felt  that  any  time  we  put  anything  on  paper,  even  if  they 

8  were  personal  notes,  that  it  increased  the  risk  of  leakage; 

9  and  during  the  period  of  time  that  I  was  in  the  White  House 

10  from  1981  to  —  through  1986,  the  administration  was 

11  damaged  very  many  times  by  leaks.   We  considered  leaks  a 

12  major  problem.   To  avoid  them,  my  general  policy  was  to 

13  commit  as  little  to  paper  as  possible.   I  think  the  staff 

14  understood  that  and  I  generally  followed  that  practice. 

15  Every  time  we  put  something  on  paper,  invariably  it  leaked 

16  out. 

17  Q    Where  did  you  keep  your  notes? 

18  A    In  my  office.   I  had  a  two-drawer  safe  in  my 

19  office.   Then  I  had  a  safe  at  home  and  so  my  notes  would 

20  either  be  in  my  office  safe  or  in  my  briefcase  or  in  the 

21  safe  at  home. 

22  Q    I  am  going  to  mark  as  the  next  exhibit  —  and  I 

23  will  staple  them.   I  will  ask  you,  are  they,  are  there 

24  three  pages  here  all  part  of  the  same  document,  or  is  it 
the  first  two?   Then  I  will  mark  it. 

imol  Aooirirn 


1010 


UNftJI^ffilT 


14 


1  A    They  are  all  part  of  the  same  document. 

2  MR.  LIMAN:   I  will  mark  as  Poindexter  2  three 

3  pages  which  bear  the  Bates  No.  42  through  44.   The  first 

4  page  is  headed  "Operation  Home  Port  Code  Sheet." 

5  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  2  was 

6  marked  for  identification.) 

7  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

8  Q    Can  you  tell  us  what  Exhibit  2  represents? 

9  A    Yes.   These  are  copies  of  I  believe  two 

10    three-by-five  cards.   One  three-by-five  card  has  material 
•)•)    on  both  sides.   It  is  an  operational  code  that  Colonel  North 

12  gave  me  that  he  would  use  if  --  when  he  was  traveling 

13  overseas  or  had  to  talk  to  me  over  a  nonfsecure  line  about 

14  sensitive  projects  he  was  working  on.   This  is  primarily 

15  related  to  the  Iranian  project. 

1g         Q    Is  that  what  Project  Home  Port  stands  for? 

17         A    I  frankly  had  forgotten  that  Colonel  North 
was  -- 

Q    That  is  a  North  word? 

A    That  is  a  North  word.   I  didn't  give  it  that 
name.   If  he  had  called  me  --  actually,  in  reality,  I  never 
use  it.   I  carried  it  in  my  briefcase  in  case  I  was  some- 
times out  of  the  office,  at  home  or  some  place,  and  he 
called  and  wanted  to  talk  about  a  sensitive  issue  over  a 
nonfsecure  line. 


IIMPI  Accincn 


1011 


■{jNtLl^lfmr 


15 


'         Q    Who  wrote  Sampson  Secord? 
2         A     I  did. 
3 


Q    Did  you  think  of  Secord  as  Sampson? 
A    No,  not  really.   As  I  recall,  I  wrote  that  at 
some  point,  because  as  I  look  down  the  list,  I  see  Secord 's 

6  name  isn't  there.   What  are  you  calling  him?   Colonel  North 

7  told  me  Sampson. 

8  Q    Do  you  recall  when  it  was  that  this  was  prepared? 

9  A    Oh,  boy.   I  really  don't  recall,  Mr.  Liman.   It 

10  would  have  been  probably  sometime  in  '86. 

11  Q    Was  — 

"12         A    I  frankly  don't  recall. 

"'3         Q    Was  it  also  used  to  communicate  on  matters 

14  relating  to  the  contras? 

15  A    That's  why  I  was  studying  it  a  moment  ago.   I 

16  frankly  had  forgotten  whether  there  was  anything  contra- 

17  related  on  it. 

18  Colonel  North  did  have  a  —  he  did  use  similar 

19  operational  codes  for  his  efforts  with  the  contras. 

20  Q    Did  you  have  one? 

21  A    I  don't  recall  having  one  of  those.   I  possibly 

22  could  have  at  some  point,  but  I  —  if  such  a  thing  existed, 

23  it  would  either  be  with  material  I  left  at  the  White  House 

24  or  it  could  have  been  destroyed  some  previous  tifne.   I  did 

25  not  have  anything  like  that  when  I  left  the  White  House. 


nq   like  that  when  I  left  ■ 

IIMni  AOPirirn 


1012 


17 
18 
19 


VNtLiMI9r 


16 


1  Q    This  does  not  appear  to  me  to  have  any  of  the  names 

2  of  the  Central  American  countries. 

3  A    In  Colonel  North's  coordination  of  the  Central 

4  American  effort,  he  was  in  contact  with  the  democratic 

5  resistance  leadership,  often  over  nonfsecure  telephone  lines. 

6  I  believe  he  used  a  similar  type  operational  code. 

7  MR.  BECKLER:   May  I  have  a  second,  counsel? 

8  THE  WITNESS:   Back  to  one  of  your  earlier  questions 

9  about  destroying  personal  notes  related  to  thisjj  when  I 

10  left  the  White  House  in  early  December,  I  had  with  me  a 

11  copy  of  this  exhibit  right  here  that  you  are  going  to  get 

12  to.   Maybe  I  ought  to  explain  it  when  we  get  to  that. 

13  MR.  BECKLER:   You  can  explain  it  now. 

14  MR.  LIMAN:   Why  don't  we  put  it  as  exhibit  --  is 

15  this  the  document  you  just  pointed  to? 
1g  THE  WITNESS:   Yes. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Mark  this  as  Poindexter  Exhibit  3. 
(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  3  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
2Q  MR.  SMALL:   Would  you  note  the  pagination  on 

21     it  for  the  record?   It  is  pages  53  through  — 

MR.  LIMAN:   Go  off  the  record  a  moment,  please. 
(Discussion  off  the  record.) 
MR.  SMALL:   We  can  go  back  on  the  recosd. 


It  would  be  pages  53  through  75. 

UiJIILlPOiririi_ 


1013 


3 


'UMrU^Uig^ 


1  THE  WITNESS:   To  finish  up  the  point  I  wanted  to 

2  make  going  back  to  one  of  your  earlier  questions.  Exhibit 
3  —  when  I  left  the  White  House  in  early  December,  I  had 

4  a  copy  of  what  we  have  now  —  you  have  now  marked  Exhibit  3. 

5  I  had  that  when  I  retained  my  attorneys  and  started  —  i  am 

6  sure  we  will  get  into  the  chronology  more  later.   I  had 

7  never  had  an  opportunity  to  go  thoroughly  through  the 

8  chronology  before  I  left  the  White  House.   In  going  through 

9  it,  in  talking  to  my  attorneys,  I  made  some  marginal  notes 

10  on  the  copy  that  I  had  in  discussion  with  my  attorneys. 

11  At  some  point  in  the  early  weeks  of  December,  in 

12  discussions  with  my  attorneys,  it  was  decided  that  it  would 

13  be  better  to  return  that  document  to  the  White  House  and  ask 

14  the  White  House  to  transmit  to  me  formally  these  documents. 

15  That  resulted  in  this  — 

16  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

17  Q    In  the  December  5,  1986,  letter? 

18  Mark  that  as  Exhibit  4 . 

19  A    When  I  returned  the  copy  of  the  chronology, 

20  Exhibit  3,  to  the  White  House,  I  asked  that  it  be  destroyed. 

21  I  assumed  that  it  was,  but  I  don't  know  that  for  a  fact. 

22  Q    Did  you  ask  it  to  be  destroyed  because  it  had 

23  notes  of  conversations  or  reflecting  your  discussions  with 

24  your  attorneys?  * 

25  A    Exactly,  sir. 

_lliini  Aonirirn 


1014 


IKKltKlfilHk' 


18 


(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  4  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Exhibit  4  is  a  document  addressed  to  Peter 
Wallison,  counsel  to  the  President,  from  Paul  Thompson, 
and  it  reflects  a  request  that  you  made. 

Is  this  the  request  that  you  are  talking  about? 
A    That  is  correct. 

Q    And  if  we  marked  as  Exhibit  5  --  that  is  a 
chronology  that  has  Bates  No.  50  through  52. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  5  was 
m\arked  for  identification.) 
THE  WITNESS:   Mr.  Liman,  on  Exhibit  5,  you 
have  a  --  this  is  a  copy  of  the  document  that  I  have.   The 
document  --  the  copy  that  I  have  still  in  my  possession 
has  some  notes  between  some  of  these  lines  that  I  took  in 
discussions  with  my  attorneys  in  working  on  the  situation 
and  those  lines  have  not  been  reproduced  here. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    So  those  were  redacted  by  you? 

MR.  HECKLER:   Those  were  redacted  by  us,  notes 
taken  during  the  course  of  discussions  with  his  counsel  in 
preparing  for  testimony  here  and  elsewhere. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Is  Exhibit  5  one  of  the  documents  you  got  as  a 

jiAiCLifoincn 


1015 


VawJj^ifMr 


19 


1  result  of  your  request  to  the  NSC  to  return  a  chronology 

2  to  you? 

3  A    That's  correct. 

4  Q    So  my  understanding  is  correct,  you  made  the 

5  request  for  chronologies  and  other  material  that  is 

6  reflected  in  the  Poindexter  Exhibit  4,  and  in  response  to 

7  that  you  received  Poindexter  Exhibit  3;  am  I  correct? 

8  A    Correct. 

9  Q    You  received  Poindexter  Exhibit  5? 

10  A    Correct. 

11  Q    And  you  also  received  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Casey? 

12  A    That's  correct. 

13  Q    And  we  will  mark  that  as  Exhibit  6. 

14  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  6  was 

15  marked  for  identification.) 
IS                BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

17  Q    Did  you  also  receive  the  letter  from  Chairman 

18  Hamilton  of  November  25,  1986,  in  response  to  your  request 

19  to  Commander  Thompson? 

20  A    That's  correct.   I  would  like  to  point  out  one 

21  thing.   The  letter  says  enclosed  is  a  transcript.   I  did 

22  not  get  a  copy  of  that  transcript. 

23  Q    What  you  got  were  the  questions  that  are 

24  reflected  here?  ' 
oc         A    Right.          _  _    

.. .  iiNniAwiEim 


1016 


wlfLlsGdHBk' 


20 


1  Q    Mark  that  as  Exhibit  7. 

2  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  7  was 

3  marked  for  identification.) 

4  MR.  LIMAN:   I  am  sorry  to  take  the  time,  but  I 

5  think  so  we  understand  your  notes  and  it  may  facilitate 

6  understanding  others  that  may  still  be  in  the  file,  I  would 

7  like  to  just  go  over  Exhibit  1  with  you  for  a  moment. 

8  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

9  Q    If  I  look  at  the  page  that  has  the  Bates  No.  1, 

10  it  is  dated  9/5/85,  and  has  on  the  top  of  it  ODSM.   What 

11  does  that  stand  for? 

12  A    ODSM  means  Office  Directors'  Staff  Meeting. 

13  Every  working  day  I  had  a  --  and  before  me,  Mr.  McFarlane, 

14  before  him  Judge  Clark,  we  started  in  about  1983  to  have  an 

15  NSC  staff  meeting  every  morning  at  7:30  in  the  Situation 

16  Room.   It  was  called  the  Office  Directors'  Staff  Meeting. 

17  It  was  not  the  entire  NSC  staff,  but  a  senior  person  from 

18  each  of  the  offices. 

19  Q    This  represents  a  note  that  you  made  on  the  date 

20  that  is  put  on  top,  9/5/85? 

21  A    That's  correct.   They  would  either  be  notes  that 

22  I  made  during  the  staff  meeting  or  notes  that  I  made  just 

23  prior  to  the  staff  meeting  to  remind  me  to  ask  a  particular 

# 

24  question.  * 

25  Q    The  square  block  beside  the  note  means  that  it  is 


1017 


MASStflgt 


1  some  sort  of  action  item,  and  when  it  is  X'ed  out,  it  means 

2  the  action  item  was  done,  or  in  some  cases,  it  could  mean 

3  it  was  OBE,  overtaJten  by  events. 

4  Q    Let  me  look  at  3,  Bates  No.  3.   That  reflects  a 

5  note  taken  on  September  25,  1985? 

6  A    That's  a  peculiar  one. 

7  Q    It's  placed  in  the  book  next  to  a  note  that  is 

8  dated  9/23/85  and  one  dated  9/12/85.   So  I  assume  it  is 

9  1985? 

10  A    It  would  be  1985. 

11  Q    What  does  it  reflect? 

12  A    It  reflects  that  in  a  meeting  with  the  President 

13  on  the  25th  of  September,  1985,  I  made  a  note  to  myself 

14  that  the  Vice  President  at  that  point  was  unaware  that  the 

15  President  planned  to  meet  with  some  hostage  families  on 

16  Friday  of  that  week,  and  the  note  was  a  note  to  myself  to 

17  remind  me  to  tell  the  Vice  President  about  it  after  the 

18  meeting  was  finished.   It's  not  X'ed  out.   So  I  can't  be 

19  sure  I  told  him. 

20  Q    If  you  had  put  an  X  out,  that  would  mean  that 

21  you  had  fulfilled  the  purpose  of  the  reminder? 
A    That's  correct. 
Q.    I  take  it  that  the  note  which  is  --  bears  the 

Bates  No.  4  reflects  your  meeting  with  the  President  on 
that  date? 


iiiiaM!f>^irirn 


1018 


21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


tmtumffi^ 


22 


1  A    That's  correct. 

2  Q    I  just  want  to  go  through  and  see  if  I  understand 

3  them. 

4  If  I  look  at  Nos.  7  and  8,  No.  7  just  has  the 

5  ODSM  letters  on  it  and  a  date  11/15/85;  and  on  the  next  page, 

6  there's  just  a  reference  to  a  memo  to  Bud^^^^^^^^Hwhat 

7  does  that  mean? 

g         A    What  that  means  is  that  I  wasn't  entirely 

9  consistent  in  dating  things  as  they  happened,  and  as  I  went 

10  through  the  notebook  with  my  attorneys  to  decide  what  was 

11  relevant  to  the  subpoenn,  in  order  to  put  a  note  in  a  time^ 

12  frame,  the  next  previous  entry  that  had  a  date  on  it  was 

13  included  here  for  you  to  indicate  the  approximate  time_^rame 

14  that  the  note  in  question  was  taken. 

15  Q    Let  me  see  if  I  understand  it.   So  007,  which 
1g  ]ust  has  ODSM,  is  a  redacted  page  of  a  meeting  of  that 
17  group  on  November  15,  1985? 

A    Correct. 

Q    It  was  redacted  to  eliminate  entries  that  were 


2Q     not  called  for  by  our  subpoena? 


A    Correct. 

Q    Then  the  next  page,  which  is  8,  was  a  page  which 
had  no  date  on  it;  is  that  correct? 
A    That's  correct. 
Q    So  you  included  the  prior  paqe  so  that  we  would 


1019 


lUNiliSSIilS' 


23 


1  have  a  time  context  when  we  looked  at  008,  which  is  Tiemoed 

2  Bud^^^^^^^His 

3  A    That's  correct. 

^  MR.  BECKLER:   The  only  amendment  I  have  to  make 

5  is  that  it  may  be  008  is  not  the  next  page. 

6  MR.  LIMAN:   I  understand. 

7  MR.  BECKLER:   It's  the  next  relevant  entry  to 

8  the  subpoena.   When  we  went  back  to  pick  up  the  nearest 

9  previous  date. 

10  MR.  LIMAN:   So  if,  for  example,  there  were  three 

11  pages  before  008,  but  they  didn't  have  a  date  on  them  — 

12  MR.  BECKLER:   Or  relevant  entry. 

13  MR.  LIMAN:   Or  relevant  entry,  they  wouldn't  be 

14  included.   What  you  did  was  go  back  in  time  to  the  entry 

15  that  had  a  date  and  that's  what  you  included? 

16  MR.  BECKLER:   That's  correct. 

17  THE  WITNESS:   That's  correct. 

18  MR.  NIELDS:   May  I  inquire? 

19  Did  you  also  include  the  next  succeeding  date? 

20  MR.  BECKLER:   I  don't  believe  so. 

21  MR.  SMALL:   Not  unless  it  included  relevant 

22  information. 

23  MR.  NIELDS:   Then  I  need  to  ask  this  question: 

24  Was  there  an  entry  for  every  date  or  almost  every  date? 


25 


THE  WITNESS:   That's  a  subjective  judgment. 

llMPiAcpincn 


1020 


'UdSlASStPIB)^ 


24 


1  At  this  point,  without  going  through  the  notebook,  but  I 

2  would  say  that  most  working  days,  Monday  through  Friday, 

3  when  we  had  the  ODSMs ,  the  ODSM  was  the  thing  that  I  most 

4  likely  made  some  sort  of  entry  on  each  day;  but  some  days 

5  I  would  forget  to  bring  my  notebook  down  and  it  would  be 

6  on  a  loose  piece  of  paper,  I  might  make  some  notes. 

7  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

8  Q    In  general,  there  were  daily  notes  for  the  week 

9  days;  is  that  a  fair  statement? 

10  A    That's  correct. 

11  Q    When  you  looked  at  the  dates  that  precede  the 

12  notes  that  you  have  here,  they  are  --  in  your  opinion  -- 

13  in  close  proximity  to  the  note  that  you  have  undated? 

14  A    That's  correct. 

15  MR.  NIELDS:   Would  it  be  true  in  your  judgment 
1g     on  most  occasions  --  well,  let's  just  take  Nos .  007  and 

17     008  of  Exhibit  1.   I  take  it  it  would  be  your  best  judgment 
13     that  the  note  on  page  007  related  to  the  15th  of  November? 
ig  THE  WITNESS:   The  way  I  would  explain  it, 

20    Mr.  Nields,  is  that  the  note  on  page  8  was  shortly  either 
2<     on  the  15th  or  shortly  within  a  day  or  two  after  the 
15th. 

MR.  NIELDS:   Could  you  make  available  to  us 
the  redacted  page  with  the  next  succeeding  date  written 
on  it?  • 


UMCLASSIHEIL 


1021 


HtHLASSW^ 


25 


1  MR.    BECKLER:       Yes. 

2  THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  have  any  problem  with  that. 

3  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

4  Q    Admiral,  when  it  says  on  008  "memo  to  BudI 

5  ^^^^^^^|can  you  tell  by  looking  at  that  whether  that  means 

6  a  PROF  memo? 

7  A    My  best  recollection,  placing  this  in  the  time 

8  frame  of  the  15th  of  November,  is  that  Bud  was  in  Geneva. 

9  McFarlane  was  in  Geneva  with  the  President  at  the  Gorbachev 

10  summit.   I  probably  wrote  this  note  as  a  reminder  to  task 

11  Colonel  North  to  prepare  a  memorandum  for  Mr.  McFarlane  on 

12 

13   ^^^^^^^^^The  X  means  I  told  Colonel  North  to  do  it. 

■J4         Q    If  I  look  at  Bates  No.  10,  there  is  no  date  on 

15  that.   But  I  see  there  was  an  entry  that  was  relevant  on 

16  11/25/85;  is  that  correct? 

17  A    Correct. 
Q    So  there  would  not  have  been  another  date  with  — 

between  that  11/25/85  and  the  undated  entry  which  is 
No .  10? 

A    That's  correct. 

May  I  volunteer  something  here? 

Q    I  am  looking  at  11.   Right. 

A    In  terms  of  understanding  my  notebooks-',  senior 
staff  meeting  wa*rt|J|Vtinflt^at  Don  Regan  had  at  0800 


iiKiirMm 


1022 


22 

23 

24 
25 


INfiU^lffiBr 


26 


1  every  weekday;  and  sometimes  I  took  notes  at  that  meeting 

2  if  there  was  something  in  our  area  being  discussed. 

3  Q    What  is_ —  on  12/5/85,  I  see  DOM.   What  does  that 

4  mean? 

5  A    At  some  point  -- 

6  Q    That  is  No.  12. 

7  A    That  is  the  same  meeting,  the  senior  staff 

8  meeting.   At  some  point  apparently  in  that  general  tirne^ 

9  frame,  the  senior  staff  meeting  was  changed  to  daily 

10  operations  meeting. 

11  Q    On  12  --  following  that  12/5,  there's  something, 

12  "meeting  with  President,  Iran  finding."   Am  I  correct? 

13  A    That  is  correct. 

14  Q    That  would  mean  since  this  one  has  no  date, 
•J5     that  it  followed  in  very  close  proximity  to  December  5, 
16     1985? 

•J7         A    Yes,  sir.   That's  correct. 

1g         Q    I  want  to  come  back  to  this  in  some  more  detail. 

19  A    I  understand. 

20  Q    That  will  be  later. 

21  Can  you  tell  me  now  what  it  means? 
A    That  means  that  this  was  the  —  probably  the 

day  after  the  President  named  me  to  succeed  Mr.  McFarlane 
as  the  National  Security  Adviser.   The  President  announced 
that,  I  believe,  on  the  4th  of  December,  '85. 


ilNHI  A<:<(IFIFn 


1023 


IRltSSIHS' 


27 


1  So  on  the  5th,  it  would  probably  have  been  the 

2  first  day  that  I  was  directly  responsible  for  the  9:30 

3  meeting  with  the  President. 

4  The  note  here  —  the  redacted  note  —  is  a  list 

5  of  items  that  I  planned  to  discuss  with  the  President  at 

6  the  9:30  meeting,  and  one  of  the  items  that  I  wanted  to 

7  discuss  with  him  was  the  Iran  finding.   There  are  several 

8  other  entries  that  are  unrelated  to  your  subpoena  on  that 

9  day.   The  asterisk  meant  that  it  was  something  —  an  item 

10  I  wanted  to  be  sure,  although  not  the  first  item  on  the 

11  list,  it  was  the  one  I  —  it  was  —  I  wanted  to  be  certain 

12  that  I  covered  it.   I  can't  be  sure  that  I  talked  to  him 

13  about  it,  because  of  the  fact  that  I  don't  have  any  other 

14  entry  there. 

15  I  am  confident  that  most  likely  I  did  discuss 

1g    the  —  a  finding  on  the  Iranian  project  with  the  President 
^7    and  it  was  probably  on  the  5th  of  December. 
1g         Q    I'm  going  to  want  to  go  into  more  detail  about 
^a    that.   I  hope  you  have  a  good  recollection  on  it. 
A    I'll  try. 

MR.  BECKLER:   May  I  interrupt  and  ask  you  a 
question? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Yes. 

MR.  BECKLER:   In  terms  of  the  transcrij>t,  are 
you  going  to  make  it  available  to  us?   The  reason'I  asked. 


1024 


WmSIHEfiT 


28 


1  you  make  it  a  lot  easier  on  me. 

2  MR.  LIMAN:   I  am  going  to  seal  it  for  the  time 

3  being  just  so  we  don't  get  it  out.   At  some  point,  I  will 

4  take  that  request  seriously. 

5  I  am  not  trying  to  play  games.   I  do  generally 

6  let  counsel  come  and  inspect  the  transcript  and  the  witness, 

7  obviously. 

8  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

9  Q    On  20,  it  says  "Talk  to  the  President."   Does 

10  this  mean  the  briefing? 

11  A    No.   This  note  is  a  little  bit  different.   You 

12  want  me  to  explain  what  that  note  is? 

13  Q    Yes. 

14  A    On  --  well,  the  holiday  season,  Christmas  season, 

15  of  1985,  the  President  was  in  Santa  Barbara  on  his  ranch. 

16  ^y  —  ^^  ^  recall,  my  deputy  was  out  there  with  him  at  the 

17  time.   I  was  back  in  Washington,  in  order  to  have  some 

1g  time  to  think  about  how  I  was  going  to  run  the  office  and 

ig  having  just  taken  over  as  National  Security  Adviser. 
20  The  page  20  that  is  headed  with  the  inscription 

2-\  "Talk  to  the  President,"  is  a  list  —  it's  a  relatively 

22  long  list  of  items  that  I  made  up  probably  on  the  way  to 
the  West  Coast  on  an  aircraft  of  things  that  I  needed  to 
talk  to  the  President  about  in  the  next  few  daya.   One  of 
the  items  that  I  wanted  to  talk  to  him  about  was  An    Israeli 

iiMpimiEifn 


1025 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


tlNftMlEB^ 


29 


proposal  that  had  been  made  to  me  by  Amiram  Nir,  the 
special  assistant  to  Prime  Minister  Peres/  on  terrorism. 
Nir  had  come  to  see  me  on  the  2nd  of  January.   Those  notes 
that  you  have  there  are  the  notes  of  items  that  Nir 
covered  in  his  conversation  with  me  and  that  I  wanted  to 
cover  with  the  President. 

Q    Let  me  ask  you  on  one  item  here,  it  says  "covert 
finding."   This  is  on  22.   "Already  pregnant  for  500." 
Okay.   Do  you  want  to  tell  us  what  that  means?   Save  my 
friend  here  a  question. 

A    What  that  means  is  I  wanted  to  discuss  with  the 
President  a  refinement  of  an  early  version  of  the  finding 
and  I  wanted  to  --  as  we  will  get  to,  I  am  sure,  the 
finding  went  through  several  versions.   I  was  never  happy 
with  the  earlier  version,  and  I  wanted  to  get  a  broader 
finding  in  which  we  clearly  laid  out  all  of  our  objectives. 

Q    Admiral,  was  the  earlier  finding  signed? 

A    It  was  signed. 

Q    It  was  signed? 

A    It  was  signed. 

Q    Thank  you. 

A    Already  pregnant  for  500  means  that  we  had 
already  —  at  this  point,  let  me  say  agreed  or  acquiesced 
to  the  shipment  of,  at  that  point,  we  thought  it«was  500 
TOWS.   As  it  turn^.Qut^  it  was  probably  508  TOWs  in 


82-726  0-88-34 


1026 


Mmm 


30 


1  August  and  September  of  1985. 

2  Q    But  I  take  it  —  and  I  don't  want  to  put  words  in 

3  your  mouth,  and  I  know  you  will  not  hesitate  to  tell  me 

4  I  am  wrong.   "Already  pregnant  for  500,"  what  that  means  is 

5  you  had  already  approved  the  500  sale.   Here  Nir  was 

6  proposing  a  much  larger  sale,  and  that's  what  the  reference 

7  was? 

8  A    That's  correct. 

9  Q    And  we  will  cover  this  chronologically  as  we  go. 

10  Is  23  part  of  this  same  note?   No.   This  says  Saturday, 

11  January  4  . 

12  A    Yes.   In  fact,  this  note  is  a  very  puzzling 

13  one.   I  am  not,  without  access  to  other  records,  I'm  not 

14  really  able  to  explain  what  that  means.   But  this  was  -- 

15  this  is  actually  on  a  separate  page.   It  is  unrelated  to  -- 

16  Q    It  says  interaction  with  hostages? 

17  A    Yes.   I  rather  think  what  it  was  —  and  again, 

18  I'd  have  to  go  back,  but  at  that  point,  we  were  working 

19  on  some  —  I  can't  think  of  the  right  word  —  sanctions 

20  against  Libya,  because  of  their  involvement  in  terrorist 

21  activity. 

22  The  note  "interaction  with  hostages,"  at  the  time 

23  we  were  worried  about  what  impact  our  sanctions  on  Libya 

24  might  have  on  the  hostages.  » 

25  Q    If  you  don't  mind,  I  would  really  like  to  go 


iiNni  ACQinrn 


1027 


mmw 


31 


and  start  a  little  earlier. 

MR.  NIELDS:   That's  fine. 
BY  MP.  LIMAN: 
Q    One  other  document  I  did  not  mark  —  would  you 
mark  as  Exhibit  8  the  final  group  of  papers  that  the 

6  Admiral  produced  which  bear  the  Bates  No.  46  through  49. 

7  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  8  was 

8  marked  for  identification.) 

9  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

10  Q    What  is  Poindexter  8? 

11  A    It  is  a  copy  of  a  printed  version  of  a  PROF 

12  note  I  sent  Mr.  McFarlane  on  the  23rd  of  November,  1984. 

13  Q    Why  did  you  happen  to  have  it  with  you? 
'14         A    Because  I  had  it  with,  what  I  call,  my  memora- 

15  bilia.   It  was  a  note  to  Mr.  McFarlane  at  the  --  after  the 

16  Presidential  election  in  November  of  1984  in  which  I  was 

17  describing  to  Mr.  McFarlane  my  views  on  how  we  generally 

18  ought  to  proceed  in  the  next  term. 

19  And  at  that  point,  both  Mr.  McFarlane  and  I  were 

20  individually  considering  whether  we  would  offer  to  &ay  on 

21  into  the  next  term  with  the  President.   Those  are  some 

22  personal  views  of  mine  to  him. 

23  I  kept  them  because,  frankly,  I  was  proud  of  my 

24  analysis  as  to  why  I  thought  we  both  ought  to  stjy  and 

25  how  we  ought  to  proceed. 

•^  ilKIPIACCICICn 


1028 


14 


UNeBtSSfflHF' 


32 


1  Q    And  there  was  some  rather  trenchant  criticism 

2  of  some  cabinet  officers  there? 

3  A    There  is.   It  is  obviously  a  very  sensitive 

4  memo  I  would  not  like  to  see  made  public. 

5  Q    I  take  it  that  is  one  of  the  reasons  that  you 

6  kept  it  as  a  personal  paper? 

7  A    That's  correct. 

8  Q    Is  it  fair  to  say  that  when  you  and  Mr.  McFarlane 

9  were  discussing  whether  you  could,  you  should  stay  on,  one 

10  of  the  factors  was  the  conflict  within  the  cabinet? 

11  A    That's  correct. 

12  Q    And  it  was  a  matter  that  was  bothering  both  of 

13  you? 
A    That's  correct. 

•)5         Q    Which  brings  us  to  how  the  NSC  ended  up  with  such 
Ig    Rrief  as  it  had  in  the  contra  matter. 

^j  Admiral  Poindexter,  do  you  recall  that  in  the 

.^Q  fall  of  1983,  Congress  appropriated  524  million  for  aid 

to  the  contras? 

A    Yes.   I  don't  remember  that  precise  date,  but 
I  do  recall  that  they  did  appropriate  some  money. 

Q    I  will  represent  to  you  it  was  S24  million. 
A     Fine. 

Q    Do  you  have  a  recollection  at  all.  Admiral,  that 
it  wis  known  the  $24  million  would  not  last  the  wfiole  year 

j^MMAccincn 


1029 


20 
21 
22 


24 
25 


'll(iiilitSSIS& 


33 


1  and  the  administration  would  have  to  go  back  for  more 

2  money? 

3-         A    Well,  I  don't  recall  specifically  remembering 

4  that,  but  let  me  just  say  in  general,  we  had  a  constant 

5  battle  with  the  Congress  in  getting  funds  that  we  thought 

6  were  required  in  order  to  bring  about  a  resolution  of  the 

7  situation  in  Nicaragua.   The  President's  policy  was  to 

8  prevent  the  consolidation  of  a  communist  government  on  the 

9  mainland  of  the  Americas  and  to  do  that,  we  thought  the 

10  most  effective  way  of  doing  it  was  to  support  the  democratic 

11  resistance  down  there,  commonly  called  the  contras. 

12  We  wanted  to  be  able  to  provide  them  all  sorts 

13  of  assistance,  including  military  assistance.   I  can't 

14  recall  right  now  whether  the  $24  million  is  what  we  asked 

15  for.   I  rather  think  we  probably  asked  for  more. 
'fg         Q    You  always  do. 

A    Yes.   Or  at  least  if  we  didn't  ask  for  more, 
we  wanted  to  ask  for  more  but  thought  that  the  traffic 


•^g    would  only  bear  $24  million. 


Q    Do  you  remember.  Admiral,  that  at  some  time 
in  the  --  in  1984,  in  the  winter  of  1984,  you  became  aware 
that  the  amount  that  had  been  appropriated  for  the  contras 
Id  be  running  out  in  around  May  or  June? 


23    would  be  running 


MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Excuse  me.   So  the  record  is 
clear,  you  said  the^  winter.   I  think  you  meant  the  spring. 


1030 


UMIMW' 


34 


1  MR.  LIMAN:   I  think  they  did  it  in  the  winter. 

2  THE  WITNESS:   You  are  talking  January,  February, 

3  '84? 

4  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

5  Q    Yes,  that  you  received  information  the  funding 

6  was  not  going  to  last  through  the  year? 

7  A    I  won't  refute  that,  but  I  frankly  can't 

8  remember. 

9  Q    You  need  the  documents  to  refresh  yourself? 

10  A    Yes. 

11  Q    Do  you  remember  -- 

12  A    We  no  doubt  did,  because  --  I'm  not  sparring 

13  with  you.   I  simply  can't  remember  that  time  frame  very 

14  well. 

15  But  we  were  concerned  very  early  on  that  we 
1g  didn't  have  really  enough  money  to  provide  the  kind  of 
17  assistance  that  we  thought  was  necessary. 

1g         Q    Who  is  we? 

ig         A    Well,  I  think  it  was  Mr.  McFarlane,  it's  me, 

2Q  it's  Colonel  North  who  is  working  the  issue.   Probably 

21  the  President,  Secretary  of  Defense.   I'm  not  sure  in  that 

22  timejirame  I  could  speak  for  the  Secretary  of  State.   But 

23  Director  Casey  probably  felt  that  way.   Generally  the 
o^  Executive  Branch  of  Government  felt  that  we  didn.' t  have 


gc     enough  money  to  do  what  was  needed. 


1031 


m. 


\\i'V\Utt 


1  Q    Did  you  participate  in  meetings  of  the  Legisla- 

2  tive  Strategy  Group  at  the  NSC? 

3  A    Sometimes.   But  the  —  the  Legislative  Strategy 

4  Group  was  not  an  NSC  organization. 

5  Q    A  White  House  organization? 

6  A    It's  a  White  House  organization.   Originally 

7  set  up  by  the  —  the  concept  was  set  up  by  Jim  Baker  when 

8  he  was  Chief  of  Staff.   The  membership  was  somewhat  movable 

9  in  that  it  was  always  the  Chief  of  Staff,  the  Assistant 

10  to  the  President  for  Legislative  Affairs.   If  it  was  a 

11  piece  of  legislation  that  we  were  working  on  that  involved 

12  national  security,  then  the  National  Security  Adviser  was 

13  there.   Once  in  a  while,  the  responsible  cabinet  officers 

14  would  be  there. 

•J5         Q    Were  there  any  — 

^g         A    In  addition  to  the  Legislative  Strategy  Group, 

of  course,  we  --  the  NSC  staff  did  their  homework  prior  to 
these  meetings.   So  we  would  have  some  internal  meetings 

•J9     of  our  own. 

2Q         Q    Were  there  discussions  of  how  to  make  up  whatever 
shortfall  there  would  be  in  contra  financing? 

A    There  probably  were,  but  let  me  put  this  into 
context.   Until  —  well,  from  October  of  '83  until  January 
of  'Se",  I  was  the  Deputy  National  Security  Adviser. 
Although  we  didn't  --  Mr.  McFarlane  and  I  didn't  have  a 


IINniA<!<!li:irn 


1032 


wusstpur 


36 


1  formal  —  and  by  that  I  mean  spelled  out  in  some  sort  of 

2  paper,  our  division  of  responsibilities,  but  generally  my 

3  responsibilities  were  in  the  area  of  chairing  various 

4  interagency  groups  such  as  the  Crisis  Preplanning  Group, 

5  the  Terrorist  Incident  Working  Group,  later  on  when  we 

6  established  the  Planning  and  Coordination  Group.   These 

7  were  all  interagency  groups  that  consisted  of  membership 

8  from  all  of  the  departments  and  agencies  involved  in 

9  national  security  at  the  deputy  or  under  secretary  level 
■\Q  of  Government. 

11  I,  as  deputy,  also  handled  most  of  the  routine 

12  paperwork,  only  referring  to  Mr.  McFarlane  those  issues 

13  that  had  to  go  to  the  President  or  to  Congress.   He 

•J4    handled  all  of  the  congressional  activity  for  the  while  he 
15    was  the  National  Security  Adviser.   A  lot  of  these  meetings 
1g    of  the  Legislative  Strategy  Group  on  the  question  of  the 
A-y  legislation  for  the  contras ,  I  did  not  participate  in 

.ja     directly.   And  so  thevinformation  I  have  is  based  on 
reports  and  — 

Q    Even  secondhand,  what  were  you  told  as  to  how 
you  were  going  to  make  up  the  shortfall? 

A    In  the  time  frame  you  are  asking  about,  I  can't 
be  any  more  specific. 

Q    Let's  broaden  the  time  frame.   From  th^  time  that 
the  contra  funding  was  running  out  in  1984  until  $100  million 

HMPi  Accincn 


1033 


VNA^IDSfir 


37 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


was  appropriated  by  Congress  in  1986,  what  were  the  discus- 
sions that  you  were  aware  of  as  to  how  to  make  up  the  short- 
fall? 

A  Thinking  back  over  that  time  period  within  the 
past  few  months,  and  trying  to  reconstruct  in  my  mind  what 
happened,  my  first  recollection  is  that  at  some  point  in 
1984  --  frankly,  when  I  try  to  think  back  on  it,  I  can't 
recall  whether  it  was  '84  or  '85,  but  it  was  probably  in 
'84  --  Mr.  McFarlane  told  me  thai 

i^as  willing  to  provide  --  I  believe  the 
figure  was  S25  million  over  a  period  of  time. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let  me  interrupt  on  that  point. 
The  purpose  of  this  closed  session,  the  Admiral  has  no 
problem  giving  that  sort  of  information  to  you.   When  we 
get  to  an  open  public  session,  you  may  have  to  have  a 
discussion  about  that,  because  it  is  still  the  position  of 
the  Admiral  --  and  I  am  --  that  certain  matters,  though 
public,  though  they  have  been  made  public,  take  on  a 
different  context  when  they  are  announced  publicly. 

MR.  LIMAN:   The  issue  of  the  contributions  that 
were  made  by  different  states  is  one  that  we  are  discussing 
with  the  relevant  authorities  in  terms  of  the  public 
disclosure  issue.   This  is  a  closed  session.   Let's 
proceed.  / 

THE  WITNESS:   Could  I  just  add  one  point? 

IIMOI  ACCiCICn 


1034 


massm 


38 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


in   thepi 


BY   MR.    LIMAN: 

Q  Right. 

A    My  concern  is  it  seems  to  me  there  is  a  difference 
with  --  between  speculation  in  the  press  or  even  reports 
that,  for  instance, ^^^^^^^^^Hcontributed 
money.   There  is  a  difference  between  that  kind  of  disclo- 
sure and  having  me  — 

Q    Make  an  official  confirmation? 

A    —  make  an  official  confirmation. 

Q    You  are  not  going  to  be  one  of  the  first 
witnesses.   This  issue  will  be  resolved  before  we  get  there. 

A    Good . 

Q    Go  ahead. 

A    I  tried  to  recall  that  conversation  with 
Mr.  McFarlane  more  precisely.   That's  really  all  I  can 
recall . 

Q    Were  you  present  at  any  briefing  with  the 
President  where  Mr.  McFarlane  communicated  that  information? 

A    I  may  have  been,  but  I  don't  remember  that. 
I  tried  to  recall.   It  is  certainly  my  impression  at  this 
point  in  time  that  I  was  always  operating  under  the 
assumption  that  Mr.  McFarlane  had  briefed  the  President 
[contribution. 
Now,  with  regard  to  the  question  as  tq  whether 
it  was  solicited  or  whether  he  offej^^it,  I  unfortunately 


UNCI  i!^\ 


1035 


mmm 


39 


1  can't  resolve  that  in  my  own  mind. 

2  Q    You  weren't  present? 

3  A     I  was  not  present  for  the  meeting. 

4  Q    Were  you  asked  to  --  ever,  to  solicit  any  funds 

5  from  any  third  countries? 

6  A     In  early  1986,  I  had  several  discussions  with 

7  Director  Casey  and  Secretary  Shultz  about  identifying 

8  third  countries  that  might  be  willing  to  contribute  funds 

9  to  the  support  of  the  democratic  resistance.   Out  of  those 

10  discussions  came  the  decision  that  the  Secretary  of  State 

11  made  to  approach  the  Sultan  of  Brunei.   So  although  --  I 

12  don't  think  I  could  say  that  anybody  ever  asked  me  or 

13  told  me  to  solicit  funds  from  a  third  country,  but  I  was 

14  certainly  involved  in  discussions  about  doing  that;  and, 

15  in  fact,  I  instigated  or  encouraged  the  review  as  to  what 
•)g  were  the  various  possibilities  in  early  1986. 

17         Q    What  were  the  various  possibilities  of  getting 

Ig  funding? 

^g         A    That's  right.   From  third  countries.   We  consi- 

2Q  dered  a  whole  range  of  countries. 

Q    You  cons  ide red  ^^^^^^^^^^^ 

A  ^^^^^^^^^^^|was       We  thought  about  -- 

Q 

A  ^^^^^^^^  We         about^^^^^^^^^^B  We 
thought  about  Israel.   We  thought  about  South  American 


1036 


DML 


___  40 

1  countries. 

2  Generally,  we  covered  to  some  degree  most  of  our 

3  allies  around  the  world  in  thinking  about  who  might  be 

4  willing  to  contribute. 

5  Q    Who  were  the  we? 

6  A    Well,  as  I  said,  I  had  discussions  with  Director 

7  Casey  about  it;  also  with  Secretary  Shultz;  Elliott  Abrams 

8  called  me  at  one  point  and  said  that  they  were  pretty  well 

9  settled  on  Brunei  as  a  good  possibility. 

10  Secretary  Shultz  was  going  on  a  trip  out  to 

11  Southeast  Asia  in  that  time^frame  and  the  question  was 

12  whether  or  not  --  the  question  that  Elliott  Abrams  and 

13  the  Secretary  were  working  on  at  the  time  was  whether  the 

14  Secretary  should  approach  the  Sultan  of  Brunei.   It  was 

15  my  understanding  that  he  had  decided  to  do  that,  as  I 

15  recall,  and  this  may  be  since  I  left  the  White  House  and 

17  have  read  about  it  in  the  paper  or  someplace.   My  under- 

18  standing  is  that  Secretary  Shultz  didn't,  but  that  the 

19  State  Department  directed  our  ambassador  to  Brunei  to  ask 

20  the  Sultan  at  some  point  after  that. 

21  Q    At  the  time  — 

22  A    Just  to  follow  more  on  Brunei,  the  conversation 

23  that  I  can  recall  with  Secretary  Abrams  was  when  he  called 

24  to  tell  me  that  they  had  pretty  well  settled  on, Brunei, 
he  asked  if  the  Sultan  agreed,  how  do  we  get  the  faoney  to 

iiNni  h^mm 


25 


1037 


m. 


rilllil'iM 


uoinLi 

1  the  democratic  resistance;  and  I  asked  that  he  talk  to 

2  Colonel  North  about  those  details. 

3  Q  Can  you  tell  me  -- 

4  A  Now,  one  more  point. 

5  Q  Fine. 

6  A  I  think  --  at  least  my  impression  at  this 

7  point  is  that  the  subject  of  third  country  support  was 

8  probably  discussed  during  that  time  period  in  a  restricted 

9  IG,  which  was  the  interagency  organization  that  was  set 

10  up  probably  '81  or  '82  to  manage  the  U.S.  Government's 

11  program  in  Central  America. 

12  Q  Were  you  on  that  RIG? 

13  A  No.   I  was  not  on  that  IG. 

14  Q  Who  was  on  that  RIG? 

15  A  Initially  —  well.  Colonel  North  would  be  my 

16  straightforward  answer,  but  I  am  not  certain  whether  he 

17  started  out  when  the  RIG  was  first  step  up  in  the  early 

18  years  or  not.   Certainly  at  some  point  in  '82  or  '83, 

19  Colonel  North  became  the  NSC  representative  on  the 

20  restricted  IG. 
Q    To  whom  did  Colonel  North  report  on  the  activities 

there? 

A  Colonel  North's  position  was  in  the  —  wasn't 
this  way  in  the  very  beginning,  but  at  some  point,  in  -- 
after  Bill  Clark  took  over  in  '82,  we  formed  an  office 

iiMDi  jLCCicirn 


1038 


HdtlftKISDr 


1  called  the  Political  Military  Affairs  Directorate.   Colonel 

2  North  was  one  of  thebfficers  in  that  directorate.   it  was 

3  designed  to  have  a  group  of  political^military  experts 

4  that  would  operate  as  a  member  of  a  team  on  the  --  most  all 

5  issues  that  the  NSC  staff  addressed  were  handled  by  a  group 

6  of  people  from  the  NSC  staff,  a  representative  from  the 

7  regional  office,  a  representative  from  the  Political 

8  Military  Affairs  Office,  if  there  was  any  military  aspect 
g  to  the  office,  and  usually  a  representative  from  the 

10  Public  Diplomat  Office,  maybe  the  Intelligence  Office 
A 

11  if  it  was  an  intelligence  or  covert  action. 

12  But  we  may  have  --  there  may  have  been  other 

13  NSC  members  attend  those  restricted  IG  meetings,  but  the 

14  way  I  looked  at  it,  I  looked  to  Colonel  North  |ras  being 

15  our  representative  over  there. 

1g  The  original  head  of  the  Political  Military 

17    Affairs  Directorate  was  Mr.  Don  Fortier  when  I  was  deputy. 
ig    Eventually  he  moved  up  to  be  my  deputy  when  I  became  the 
National  Security  Adviser.   We  operated  for  a  period  of 
time  in  '86  without  a  head  of  the  Political  Military 
Affairs  Office. 


Eventually,  at  some  point  in  '86,  I  made 

Mr.  Howard  Teicher  the  head  of  the  Military  Affairs 

\ 
Directtjrate.   So  technically,  that  was  the  chain  of 

command.   We  had  Colonel  North  in  the  Political  Military 


UMCl  &55IF1FJL 


1039 


M.|)^)fiBr 


43 


1  Affairs  Directorate.   There  was  a  head  of  that  most  of  the 

2  time.   Then  above  him  you  had  the  deputy  and  then  the 

3  National  Security  Adviser.   But  as  I  am  sure  it  has  been 

4  obvious  to  you.  Colonel  North  worked  on  a  lot  of  very 

5  sensitive  projects.   On  Central  America,  when  Mr.  McFarlane 

6  was  there,  Colonel  North  reported  really  directly  to  him, 

7  keeping  me  generally  informed  of  what  he  was  working  on  and 

8  when  I  became  National  Security  Adviser,  I  had  the  same 

9  sort  of  arrangement  and  it  was  understood  by  the  inter- 

10  vening  people  in  the  chain  of  command  that  Colonel  North 

11  had  direct  access  to  the  National  Security  Adviser. 

12  Q    That  brings  me  to  a  question.   Do  you  recall 

13  that  you  gave  Colonel  North  a  code  word  that  he  could  use 

14  to  communicate  directly  with  you? 

•jg         A    It  is  a  poor  choice  of  words. 

1g         Q    It  was  "blank  check"? 

17         A    "Private  blank  check." 

13         Q    What  occasioned  you  — 

19         A    What  does  it  mean? 

Q    No.   What  occasioned  you  to  give  him  that? 
A    One  of  my  first  responsibilities  when  I  first 
came  to  the  NSC  staff  as  military  assistant  to  Richard 
Allen  when  he  was  the  National  Security  Adviser  was  to 
bring  the  NSC  staff  into  the  modern  technological  age. 
When  I  came,  we  didn't  have  any  computers.   I  thirtk  there 


t* «  -,  . 


MCI  hRSMSL 


1040 


ittomffip 


44 


1  were  one  or  two  raag-card  typewriters  on  the  entire  staff. 

2  So  eventually,  to  make  a  long  story  short,  we  installed  this 

3  professional  office  system  which  is  --  it  is  an  IBM  product. 

4  Eventually  practically  every  staff  member  on  the  NSC  staff 

5  had  a  terminal.   The  terminals  were  connected  up  to  a 

6  mainframe  operated  by  the  White  House  Communications  Agency. 

7  Each  staff  member  had  the  ability  to  send  and  receive 

8  electronic  messages. 

9  One  of  the  reasons  we  put  that  in  was  that  I 

10  found  that  we  were  wasting  a  terrible  amount  of  time 

11  playing  telephone  tag  trying  to  communicate  on  the  staff. 

12  It  was  a  secure  system.   Eventually  we  installed  a  facility 

13  that  while  we  were  on  the  road  traveling,  we  had  portable 

14  terminals  that  would  hook  into  that  system.   So  it  didn't 
•)5    make  a  difference  whether  I  was  in  my  office  or  at  home  or 
1g    on  the  road  someplace;  I  could  always  come  back  into  the 
17    main  computer  and  send  and  receive  messages  to  the  staff. 
ig  In  1985,  I  believe,  when  we  —  we  had  operated 
ig    with  the  system  for  the  first  couple  of  years  in  a  rather 

20  limited  way.   Once  we  began  to  give  everybody  terminals 

21  in  the  front  office,  we  realized  that  we  would  --  if  we 

weren't  careful,  we  would  be  inundated  with  messages.   So 

we  put  some  software  restrictions  into  the  system  so  that 

Mr.  McTFarlane  and  I  could  send  out  messages  to  anybody  on 

the  staff  directly  and  these  messages  would  go  ditectly  to 


nm  assiEiEi 


1041 


mmm 


45 


1  the  staff  member  and  nobody  else,  unless  we  copied  them, 

2  would  have  access  to  those  notes. 

3  The  reverse  was  not  true.   Every  staff  member 

4  could  not  reply  or  send  a  message,  originate  a  message 

5  directly  to  Mr.  McFarlane  or  to  me.   We  provided  the 

6  administrators  of  this  system  a  list  of  people  that  could 

7  reply  directly.   They  were  generally  the  senior  people 

8  on  the  staff.   Everybody  else's  messages  would  go  —  would 

9  be  iiHnL  L'liLilin.l  by  the  executive  secretary  and  his  deputy. 
10     They  would  either  take  action  on  them  or  forward  the  notes 
W  on  to  Mr.  McFarlane  and/or  me.   And  then  we  would  reply. 

12  Now,  if  we  sent  a  staff  member  a  note  directly, 

13  the  system  was  designed  in  such  a  way  that  the  staff  member 

14  could  reply  directly  and  that  note  would  not  be  idftt^rifttptsd 

15  by  the  executive  secretary.  This  procedure  was  not  greeted 
1g  with  great  enthusiasm  by  the  staff  because  everybody  wanted 
yj  to  have  direct  access.   And  so  Colonel  North  was  working 

^g    on  some  very  sensitive  issues  for  us,  terrorism,  hostages, 
.^g    Central  America,  the  Iranian  project  eventually.   So 

rather  than  change  my  direction  as  to  who  could  communi- 
cate back,  the  way  I  got  around  the  system  that  I  installed, 
was  responsible  for  installing,  was  to  send  Colonel  North 
a  PROF'S  note.   The  subject  was  "Private  Blank  Check." 
I  said".  If  you  want  to  respond  directly  to  me  or,  if  you 
want  to  send  me  a  note  directly  and  nobody  else  cSn  see  it, 

imp!  «s<jiFiFn 


1042 


tflM^lflyr 


46 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


then  respond  to  this  note.   So  he  kept  that  note  in  his 
system.   When  he  wanted  to  reply  directly,  he  sent  it. 
MR.  LIMAN:   Mark  as  the  next  exhibit  a  PROF 
note  from  the  Admiral  to  Colonel  North  dated  August  31,  1985. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  9  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
THE  WITNESS:   That  is  the  note  I  just  described. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    What  occasioned  you  on  August  31,  1985,  to  give 
Colonel  North  this  direct  access  to  you?   Why  on  that  date? 
A    I  can't  be  certain. 

Q    Was  it  the  Central  American  affairs  that  did  it? 
A    It  could  be  a  --  it  could  be  that.   It  could  be 
hostage  negotiatior 

I  But  I  rather  think  that  what  precipitated 
it  was  that  that  was  probably  the  time^ frame  in  which  we 
instituted  this  software  control  in  the  system  that  would 
have  his  messages  intercepted.   That  probably  is  more 
related  to  the  time~irame  than  any  other  particular  event. 
Q    Do  you  recall  that  in  August  of  1985,  there  had 
been  some  inquiries  from  the  Hill  about  Colonel  North's 
activities  on  behalf  of  the  contras? 

A    Yes.   I  do  recall  that  in  1985  there  were 
inquiries  from  Michael  Barnes  of  Maryland  and  Le^  Hamilton 
of  Indiana,  who  was  Chairman  of  the  House  Intelligence 


iiMniAQwrirn 


1043 


23 
24 
25 


URI^HW 


47 


1  Committee  at  that  time. 

2  Q    Was  giving  Colonel  North  this  direct  access 

3  related  in  any  way  to  the  inquiries  that  you  had  been 

4  getting  from  the  Hill  about  his  activities? 

5  A    Well,  indirectly,  yes. 

6  Q    How? 

7  A    It  is  related  in  that  we  --  I  felt,  and  I  think 

8  Mr.  McFarlane  felt  the  same  way,  that  what  Colonel  North 

9  was  doing  in  terms  of  supporting  the  democratic  resistance 

10  was  within  the  letter  of  the  law  at  the  time,  although 

11  obviously  very  sensitive,  very  controversial.   We  wanted 

12  to  avoid  more  restrictive  legislation,  and  so  any  activity 

13  that  he  would  have  been  involved  with  on  Central  America, 

14  we  wanted  to  keep  very  highly  compartmented . 

•(5  So  that  very  likely  played  a  role  in  my  deciding 

16  to  do  that.   Whether  those  particular  letters  that  you  are 

17  referring  to  precipitated  that  note,  I  would  doubt  it. 

18  But  generally,  the  concerns  that  we  had  about  keeping 

19  compartmentalized  and  keeping  very  closely  held  Colonel 

20  North's  activities  would  have  been  an  obvious  factor  in  it. 
2^  Q  Did  you  discuss  with  Mr.  McFarlane  the  fact  that 
22  you  were  giving  North  this  direct  access? 


A    I  don't  believe  I  did. 

q"   Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Colonel  Nor^h  had 
that  kind  of  code-word  direct  access  to  Mr.  McFarlane? 


1044 


23 


DNSLASStR^ 


43 


1  A    I  don't  know,  but  I  would  doubt  it  because  I  don't 

2  think  Mr.  McFarlane  understood  how  the  system  worked  in  that 

3  level  of  detail. 

4  Q    Did  you  give  such  a  --  if  I  can  use  it  --  a 

5  code  word  to  anybody  else  on  the  staff? 

6  A    I  don't  recall  giving  a  code  word  like  that  to 

7  anybody  else.   However,  there  was  one  other  staff  member 

8  who  worked  in  the  counterintelligence  area  who  often  replied 

9  to  me  or  --  by  reply,  I  mean  he  actually  replied  to  one  of 

10  my  PROF'S  notes.   He  was  originating  information  that  was 

11  coming  to  me.   It  was  coming  directly,  using  the  same 

12  technique. 

13  Q    Had  he  done  that  earlier? 

14  A    Had  he  done  it  earlier? 

15  Q     Is  that  where  you  got  the  idea  from? 

16  A    No.   No.   It's  just  that  I  knew  how  the  system 

17  worked.   I  am  kind  of  a  computer  buff. 

18  Q    Who  was  the  other  staff  member? 

19  A    His  name  is  David  Majors. 

20  Q    Okay. 

21  A    His  notes  were  completely  unrelated  to  your 

22  issue,  but  in  the  counterintelligence  area. 
Q    Tell  me,  in  August,  1985,  as  you  best  recall  it, 


without  getting  into  detail,  what  were  the  issuefe  that 


24     without  getting 


25     North  was  working  on? 

IIMPI  ACCICICn 


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p4iUAl  i^AlfaiTR.. 


49 


1  A     In  August  of  '85?   He  was  working  on  the  Central 

2  America  issue,  keeping  the  contras  supported.   He  was  working 

3  on  the  Vice  President's  task  force  on  countering  terrorism. 

4  He  was  working  on  the  hostage  issue.   He  was  working  in 

5  August  of  1985  —  I  don't  think  he  was  working  on  the 

6  Iranian  project  in  August  of  '85.   I  don't  think  he  came 

7  into  that  until  November  of  '85. 

8  Q    Is  there  a  priority  among  these  matters  that  he 

9  was  working  on  that  you  characterize? 

10  A    Well,  I  would  certainly  have  considered  the  most 

11  important  thing  he  was  working  on  Central  Amarica.   I  don't 

12  recall  we  actually  prioritized  it. 

13  Q    A  moment  ago  you  said  he  was  working  on  keeping 

14  the  contras  --  if  we  can  call  the  resistance  forces  contras 

15  without  it  being  intended  to  have  any  pe]orative  meaning, 


because  it  doesn't  for  me,  I  think  it  would  be  simpler. 

A    I  understand. 

Q  You  said  a  moment  ago  he  was  working  on  keeping 
the  contras  supported.  What  does  that  mean?  What  was  he 
doing,  as  you  understood  it? 

A    Let  me  go  back  to  the  reference  I  made  earlier 
to^^^^^^^Hcontribution.   I  believe  --  his  involvement 
in  keeping  the  contras  supported  may  have  started  before 
that,  but  as  near  as  I  can  recall,  that  was  kind  of  the 
initiating  action  that  brought  Colonel  North  so  heavily 

llMoi  Kooinrn 


1046 


■jiMpj  APjPirirn. 


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into  this  area. 

After  Mr.  McFarlane  told  me  that 
was  willing  to  provide  funds,  Colonel  North  had  been  working 
Central  America.   I  believe  that  Mr.  McFarlane  asked,  or 
directed  Colonel  North  to  oversee  this  transfer  of  funds 
f rom^^^^^^^^^Hto  the  contras;  and  by  oversee,  I  mean  keep 
track  that  the  money  indeed  did  get  transferred,  keep  track 
of  how  the  money  was  being  spent,  what  the  logistics 
status  of  the  democratic  resistance  was,  you  know,  what 
sort  of  arms  did  they  need,  what  sort  of  arms  were  they 
getting.   I  don't  know  at  this  point  at  what  time  Dick 
Secord  entered  the  picture;  but  it  could  have  been  in  the 
same  general  time  frame. 

The  contras  didn't  have  a  good  logistics  organi- 
zation.  Of  course,  as  long  as  the  CIA'was  primarily 
responsible  for  managing  the  program,  they  did  that.   They 
managed  the  logistics  system;  but  once  the  Boland  Amendment 
passed  and  the  CIA  had  to  get  out  of  that  business,  in 
effect,  my  view  of  the  situation  was  that  Colonel  North 
took  over  primary  responsibility  for  making  sure  that  that 
logistics  system  functioned. 

Q    If  you  can  continue,  including  the  role  of 
Secord,  I  would  like  you  to.   Why  don't  you  just  do  it 
without  the  questions.   Just  tell  us. 

A     I  will.   There's  ]ust  an  awful  lot  of  material 

mini  AAAirirn 


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Ml^W 


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here. 

Q    Just  keep  going. 

Why  don't  you,  in  your  own  words,  tell  us  the 
story  of  what  happened,  as  you  recall  it  and  see  it,  in 
the  whole  contra  matter. 

A    All  right.   When  we  were  confronted  with  the 
problem  of  carrying  out  the  President's  policy,  which, 
frankly,  I  personally  endorsed.   I  have  always  thought  the 
President  was  right.   ^ut  with  the  restrictions  that  were 
placed  on  us  by  the  various  versions  of  the  Boland  Amend- 
ment, we  tried  to  figure  out  a  way  to  keep  the  contras 
alive  as  a  viable  force  until  we  could  eventually  win 
the  legislative  battle.   And  I  am  sure,  as  you  know,  the 
history  of  the  legislative  battle  weril/back  and  forth 
several  iterations. 

At  some  point,  we  did  get,  from  the  Intelligence 
Oversight  Board,  an  opinion  that  the  more  restrictive 
version  of  the  Boland  Amendment  didn't  apply  to  the  NSC 
staff.   This  is  in  the  Tower  Commission  Report.   There 
was  the  cav)|fat  that  possibly  Colonel  North,  because  he 
was  a  detailee  from  the  Defense  Department,  might  be 
prohibited;  but,  frankly,  I  thought  —  and  I  think 
Mr.  McFarlane  felt  —  that  that  was  a  debatable  point. 
Very  frankly,  we  were  willing  to  take  some  risks  in  order 
to  keep  the  conti;^.4l^^e  ,.a^  L  saidu-lihtil  we  could 


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eventually  win  the  legislative  battle. 

So,  for  all  intents  and  purposes,  Colonel  North 
largely  took  over  the  --  much  of  the  activity  that  CIA     /— n 
had  been  doing  prior  to  their  being  prohibited  from  carryin'gy 
activity  because  of  the  Boland  Amendment . 

When  I  say  "carrying  out  all  activity,"  obviously, 
one  person       do  everything  that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H;iA 
people  were  doing. 

One  other  point  here;  I  think  this  is  important. 
I  don't  mean  to  be  pejorative  or  critical  of  Colonel  North, 
because  I  have  the  highest  regard  for  him.   But  Colonel 
North  did  have  a  tendency  to  be  a  little  bit  expansive 
in  describing  things.   As  you  read  through  the  PROF's  notes, 
he  uses  the  word  "our"  and  "we."   I  am  not  trying  to 
distance  myself  from  that,  but  I  think  you  are  going  to 
need  to  be  very  careful,  if  I  can  offer  advice,  in 
analyzing  exactly  what  he  did  or  what  somebody  else  was 
doing  and  he  was  reporting  it  as  we  and  our.   At  least, 
that's  the  filter  that  I  used  as  I  read  Colonel  North's 
reports . 

But  in  '84  or  '85  --  I  am  s-ure  it  was  '84,  but 
again,  I  can't  place  the  time  exactly  --  but  we  looked  at 
what  sort  of  ways  that  we  could  support  the  democratic 
resistance  through  nonappropriated  funds.   By  that,  I  mean 
funds  from  private  parties,  from  third  countries.   I  can't 


JIMIEL 


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recall  specifically  conversations  with  the  President. 
Possibly,  in  earlier  time~^raines ,  prior  to  September  of  '85, 
where  my  notes  that  I  have  ]ust  given  you  this  morning 
cover  the  time  period,  conceivably  in  my  older  notes  there 
may  be  references  there  that  could  shed  some  light  on 
when  issues  were  specifically  discussed  with  the  President. 

But  let  me  ]ust  say  that  the  President,  I've 
always  felt  was  generally  aware  of  the  fact  that  the  contras 
were  receiving  private  sources  of  funds  and  funds  from 
third  countries. 

On^^^^^^^^^^^Kl    have  told  you  how  that  came 
about.   We  were  obviously  --  Mr.  McFarlane  and  I  were, 
as  I  said  earlier,  very  sensitive  to  the  fact  that  the 
specifics  of  how  the  democratic  --  the  contras  were  being 
supported,  not  become  widely  known.   We  kept  the  issue 
highly  compartmented . 

At  one  point,  Mr.  McFarlane  told  me  that 
General  Vessey,  the  Chairman  of  the  JCS ,  called  him  one 
day  and  indicated  to  him  in  some  way  that  he  was  aware 
that^^^^^^^^Hhad  provided  S25  million.   Frankly, 
Mr.  McFarlane  and  I  were  surprised  that  General  Vessey 
knew  that.   We  speculated  as  to  how  he  might  know  that. 
Again,  not  because  we  thought  it  was^^^^^g^^^v^^ecause 
we  knew  it  was  sensitive, 


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we  knew  their  sensitivity  if  it  leaked  out  that  they  were 
helping  with  Central  Americi 


So  we  were  very  sensitive  to  that.   I  did,  after 
Mr.  McFarlane  told  me  that,  I  had  the  occasion  to  meet 
witi^^^^^^^^^^^^^l  He  invited  me  to  to  his 

residence  one  evening  to  talk  generally  about  the  Middle 
East.   I  met  with  him  out  there  at  his  residence.   In  that 
conversation,  I  indicated  to  him  --  and  this  was  the  first 
time  that  I  had  talked  tc^^^^^^^^^^^Habout  the 
contribution  to  Central  America.   In  fact,  when  I  raised 
It,  he  wasn't  aware  that  I  knew;  but  I  told  him  about  the 
conversation  that  General  Vessey  had  had  with  Mr.  McFarlane 
and  I  posed  the  question  as  to  how  General  Vessey  knew 
about  it.   He  indicated  that  it  had  happened  inadvertently. 
He  had  told  him,  but  he  assumed  General  Vessey  knew  about 
it. 

So  going  back  to  one  of  your  earlier  questions, 
I  did  talk  tc^^^^^^^^^^^Hout  at  his  residence  on  that 
occasion.   I  believe  --  well,  that  may  not  have  been  the 
only  time  that  I  talked  to  him  about  it. 


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the  strength  of  the  President  in  this  country  was  very 
important  to  their  security  and  even  though  they  might  not 
always  agree  with  us,  that  it  was  important  that  at  least 
publicly,  that  they  be  very  supportiv 


So  in  addition  to  the  third  country  issue  --  and 
originally,     was  onl^r^^^^^^^^^^^Hxhere      other 
countries  involved  which  I  will  get  to. 

At  some  point  in  this  early  time  period,  when  we 
were  faced  with  how  to  support  them,  there  was  a  concerted 
effort  on  the  NSC  staff  and  in  other  offices  in  the  White 
House  such  as  -the  Office  of  Public  Liaison,  Pat  Buchanan's 
Communications  Office,  the  —  probably  the  Legislative 
Affairs  Office  would  have  been  involved  in  some  of  the 
discussions  about  how  to  energize  private  support  in  the 
United  States  for  the  contras.   This- was  how  to  get  the 
information  about  what  was  happening  in  Nicaragua  out  to  the 
American  people,  get  private  groups  organized  to  contribute 
funds . 

I,  fr'^v  V^w  -  "IC  D  '  L  !I£  '^y  ^?JlA.t— we  really  made 


1052 


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any  big  distinction  about  how  the  funds  would  be  used, 
whether  they  would  be  used  for  military  assistance  or 
humanitarian  aid.   I  wasn't  directly  involved  in  many  of 
those  early  discussions  that  took  place;  but  in  terms  of 
hearing  reports  and  secondhand  information,  my  recollection 
at  this  point  is  not  strong  that  we  made  a  real  distinction 
between  how  the  assistance  from  private  sources  would  be 
used . 

The  President's  view  in  general  was  that  private 
support  to  the  contras  was  an  appropriate  thing.   I  can 
recall  conversations  with  him  in  which  he  recalled  the 
other  times  in  the  history  of  the  United  States  when  private 
individuals  had  supported  foreign  conflicts  before  the 
U.S.  Government  would  get  involved.   I  can  recall  he  would 
recall  the  Lincoln  Brigade,  the  Lafayette  Escadrille  and 
other  examples  of  where  private  American  citizens  provided 
support  for  a  foreign  conflict.   He  felt  that  that  was 
entirely  appropriate. 

So  we  worked  on  in  that  time  period  a  general 
plan-  on  how  to  energize  the  private  sector.   Various  events 
were  planned  and  set  up  where  you  would  have  private  groups 
come  into  the  White  House.  The  Office  of  Public  Liaison 
usually  set  these  up.   They  would  be  briefed  by  a  series 
of  administration  spokesmen  and  members  of  the  N'SC  staff 
would  often  participate.   Colonel  North  would  tal1<  to  these 


.H^||^ilunfv^luiPT> 


1053 


.     groups  sometimes.   Constantine  Menges,  who  worked  in  the 
2    NSC  Regional  Affairs  Office,  would  talk  to  them.   We  would 
-    get  speakers  from  the  State  Department,  the  Defense  Depart- 
.  ment,  generally  speaking,  that  were  expert  in  the  Latin 

American  area. 

At  one  point  we  planned  and  executed  the 
President's  participation  in  a  dinner  for  one  of  the  outside 
organizations  that  was  working  to  provide  support  to  the 
democratic  resistance. 

Then  Colonel  North  often  would  go  out  and  speak 
to  assemblages  of  people  that  were  pulled  together;  and  as 
I  generally  understand  --  I  never  participated  in  one  of 
those  groups  ]ust  simply  because  my  whole  time  on  the  NSC 
staff/  I  have  tried  to  maintain  a  low  profile  and  also 
the  press  of  other  business. 

To  put  all  this  in  context,  of  course,  and  I 
am  sure  you  are  aware,  I  was  working  on  hundreds  of  other 
issues.   This  was  an  important  part  of  the  President's 
priorities,  but  not  the  only  one.   But  anyway,  the  best 
I  can  explain  what  would  happen  in  these  outside  private 
groups  is  that,  for  instance,  with  Colonel  North's  involve- 
ment, is  that  a  group  would  be  assembled  by  a  private 
organization  of  some  kind.   He  would  go  speak  to  them 
in  terms  of  what  was  happening  in  Nicaragua,  who  the 
contras  were,  what  their  objectives  were,  and  generally 


wissra. 


1054 


%  -i '-, 


58 


1  try  to  develop  support  and  --  at  least  as  reported  by 

2  Colonel  North  to  me  --  I  don't  believe  he  ever  directly 

3  solicited,  but  he  would  leave  the  podium  and  then  the 

4  organizers  of  the  private  organization  would  do  whatever 

5  soliciting  took  place. 

6  Now,  since  I  have  never  attended  any  of  those, 

7  I  can't  be  sure,  but  I  think  Colonel  North,  you  will  find, 

8  hopefully  at  some  point,  is  a  very  honest,  straightforward 

9  person.   So  I  don't  have  any  reason  to  question  what  he 

10  told  me. 

11  We  were  always  on  the  lookout  for  private  or 

12  third-party  contributions.   At  one  point,  General  Singlaub 

13  made  a  trip  to  Asia  and  I  frankly  am  not  certain  of  the 

14  origins  of  that  trip,  but  as  a  result  of  his  trip  out  there 

15  I  can  recall  that  Colonel  North  reported  to  Mr.  McFarlane 

16  '3nd  to  me  that  a  representative  of  th^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hhad 

17  approached  Colonel  North  and  asked  the  question  as  to 

18  whether  General  Singlaub  was  out  there  representing  the 

19  U.S.  Government  or  whether  this  was  a  private  effort,  and 

20  did  the  United  States  want^^^^^^^to  do  anything. 

21  The  answer  that  Mr.  McFarlane  approved  Colonel 

22  North's  passing  back  to^^^^^^Brepresentative  was  a  very 

23  carefully  crafted  answer.   It  was  something  to  the  effect 

24  that  General  Singlaub  was  out  there  as  a  private  U.S. 

25  citizen  and  with  JS^La/^.to  ^^^L"^  question  as  to  whether 


1055 


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the  U.S.  Government  wanted  them  to  support  the  contras, 
that  --  the  answer  to  that  was  that^^^^^Hclearly  under- 
stands the  President's  policies  with  regard  to  Nicaragua 
and  the  Sandinista  government  and  the  democratic  resistance; 
end  of  response. 

At  either  about  the  same  time  or  shortly  there- 
after that,  I  believe  Colonel  North  also  reported  that  a 

o f  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H,  as 
Singlaub's  trip  out  there,  came  and  asked  a  similar 
question.   Colonel  North  was  authorized  to  pass  backJ 

essentially  the  seune  answer. 

Let  me  also,  to  put  this  in  perspective,  we  were 
not  completely  naive  about  this  in  that  on  the  one  hand, 
we  wanted  to  get  support  for  the  democratic  resistance, 
but  we  didn't  want  to  become  obligated  to  a  third  country, 
and  they  could  then  use  that  as  leverage.   So  our  general 
position  was  if  they  wanted  to  contribute,  fine;  but  we 
weren't  going  to  directly  put  the  arm  on  them  to  do  that. 

Now,  other  sources  of  funding,  at  one  point  -- 
and  I  believe  it  was  sometime  in  1985  --  Colonel  North 
came  to  me  and  reported  that  there  was  a  Saudi  businessman 
who  claimed  to  be  a  Prince  and  he  wanted  to  contribute 
some  funds  to  the  democratic  resistance;  and  I  don't  recall 
the  exact  circumstances,  because,  you  know,  this.' was  a 
passing  comment,  but  my  recollection  is  that  the  Saudi 


1056 


ntftJISSfFEB'^ 


1  businessman  either  --  something  to  do  with  a  green  card, 

2  either  he  had  a  green  card  or  --  and  it  was  expiring  or  he 

3  wanted  to  get  a  green  card  or  something.   He  wanted  some 

4  help  in  getting  that. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  We        --  I 

6  recognize  the  name.   But  on  that  incident,  I  told  Colonel 

7  North  to  check  out  who  the  man  was  and  if  we  could  be  of 

8  assistance  on  the  green  card  and  the  guy  checked  out,  to  go 

9  ahead  and  see  if  we  could  help.   I  don't  recall  getting  a 

10  report  after  that  as  to  what  finally  transpired  until  I 

11  read  that  recently  in  the  paper. 

12  General  Secord,  obviously,  plays  a  very  big 

13  part  in  this.  I'm  very  fuzzy  on  the  origination  of  that. 

14  As  the  Tower  Commission  Report  points  out,  I  think  probably 

15  Colonel  North  met  General  Secord  when  we  were  back  in  1981, 

16  when  Colonel  North  first  Ccime  to  the  NSC  staff  and  we  were 

17  working  the  AWACS  issue  for  Saudi  Arabia.   But  as  --  when  we 

18  reached  the  point  that  the  CIA  was  restricted  as  to  what 

19  they  could  do  in  terms  of  supporting  the  contras  and  because 

20  the  contras  didn't  have  a  —  any  sort  of  logistics  organi- 

21  zation  of  their  own.  Colonel  North,  to  carry  out  his 

22  general  responsibilities,  had  to  figure  out  a  way  to 

23  privately  arrange  a  logistics  organization. 

24  I  don't  recall  being  involved  in  the  decision 
5c  to  use  General  Secord,  but  when  I  learned  of  it,  I  had  no 

iiMoi  AQQiripn 


1057 


DNKASSnES^ 


1  problem  with  it.   I  was  an  admirer  of  General  Secord's, 

2  thought  he  was  a  very  competent,  capable  officer,  and  also 

3  didn't  see  any  problem  with  it  because  he  was  doing  this 

4  as  a  private  individual. 

5  I  would  suppose  with  hindsight/  that  he  probably 

6  became  involved  when^^^^^^^^H money  began  to  flow  to  the 

7  democratic  resistance  and  the  problem  arose  as  to  how  to  -- 

8  for  the  democratic  resistance  to  use  that  money  to  obtain 

9  arms  and  ammunition  and  the  other  supplies  and  stuff  that 
10     they  needed.   I  am  sure  Colonel  North  will  have  a  better 

■)■)     recollection  of  the  exact  details  there.   Bvit  I  understand 

12  from  the  reports  that  Colonel  North  made  to  me  that 

13  generally  the  way  it  worked  is  that  General  Secord  either 

14  had  or  set  up  several  companies  that  essentially  ran  the 

15  logistics  organization  for  the  democratic  resistance 

1g     going  all  the  way  from  procuring  arms  from  third  countries 
17     with  funds  that  were  available  from  whatever  source, 
.|g    private  or  third  party,  and  then  transporting  those  arms 
ig    and  supplies  from  their  third-country  location  to  the 
Central  America  area,  including  direct  parachute  drops 
into  contra  units  that  were  in  Nicaragua.   That's  a 
pretty  -- 

Q    An  overview? 

A    An  overview  of  early  years. 

When  we  got  into  the  S27  million  of  humanitarian 


e  got  into  tne  i^i    miiiic 


1058 


utimiir 


62 


''  aid  and  the  setj^ip  of  the  Nicaraguan  Humanitarian  Affairs 

2  Office,  we,  of  course,  agreed  to  that  compromise  with  the 

3  Hill.   In  fact",  with  hindsight,  I  think  we  made  a  tactical 
*  error  in  agreeing  to  that  kind  of  limited  support,  because 

5  frankly  that  limited  support  wasn't  going  to  do  it.   And 

6  the  restrictions  that  were  placed  on  us  in  administering 

7  that  humanitarian  assistance,  the  restrictions  being  that 

8  only  the  State  Department  --  we  couldn't  involve  the  CIA 

9  and  Defense  Department  people  in  it.   There  was  a  terrible 

10  problem  of  how  to  get  those  humanitarian  supplies  in  to  the 

11  contras ,  especially  those  that  were  in-country. 

12  So  I'm  not  certain  of  this,  but  I  think  Dick 

13  Secord  probably  got  involved  and  probably  using  Colonel 

14  North  as  liaison  with  the  Humanitarian  Affairs  Office, 

15  when  the  Humanitarian  Affairs  Office  couldn't  get  stuff 

16  delivered  any  other  way.   I  wouldn't  doubt  but  what  you 

17  will  find  that  General  Secord  was  involved  in  transporting 

18  some  of  that  humanitarian  aid  down  there  as  well,  using 

19  the  same  logistics  system  that  he  had  set  up  for  the 

20  private  third-country  aid  that  was  going  down  there. 

21  Colonel  North  kept  very  close  contact  with  the 

22  contra  leadership,  not  only  in  terms  of  their  logistics 

23  but  also  in  terms  of  getting  organized  as  a  more  effective 

24  political  entity.   He  met  with  the  democratic  le&dership 

25  often  and  I  think  was  largely  responsible  for  getting  them 

IlilAI  JinAirirn 


1059 


ffffJRET 


1  to  organize  the  United  Nicaraguan  Opposition  Organization, 

2  getting  them  to  focus  on  what  their  objectives  were.   The 

3  leaders,  Adolf o  Calero,  Arturo  Cruz,  and  Adolf o  Robelo  -- 

4  and  sometimes  you  will  see  in  my  notes  a  shorthand  AAA,  and 

5  that  refers  to  those  three  leaders.   He  maintained  very 

6  close  contact  with  them.   Colonel  North  maintained  close 

7  contact  with  Secord. 

8  So  my  view  of  the  operation  was  that  Colonel 

9  North  was  the  switching  point  that  made  the  whole  system 

10  work.   You  know,  what  he  got  involved  with  directly  or 

11  somebody  else  did  is  a  little  fuzzy  in  my  mind,  but  clearly 

12  I  viewed  Ollie  as  the  kingpin  to  the  Central  America 

13  opposition  once  the  CIA  was  restricted. 

14  Q    How  much  did  the  President  know  of  this? 

15  A    Well,  that's  a  little  hard  to  tell  for  me.   I 
1g  think  the  President  was  clearly  aware  that  Colonel  North 

17  was  the  primary  staff  officer  on  the  NSC  for  the  democratic 

•)3  resistance. 

19  Colonel  North  would  have  participated  in  probably 

20  several  meetings  with  the  President.   Certainly  when  the 

21  AAA  ccime  up  to  meet  with  the  President,  Colonel  North  would 

22  be  in  those  meetings.   He  would  be  in  any  NSC  and  maybe  some 
of  the  NSPG  meetings  that  were  held  on  Central  America,  so 
the  President  would  see  his  face  on  any  event  associated 
with  Central  America. 


1060 


MUSSfffflT 


1  Colonel  North  would  —  once  in  a  while  --  would  go 

2  up  to  the  9:30  meetings  if  he  had  something  to  report  about 

3  Central  America. 

4  The  President  is  not  a  man  for  great  detail, 

5  which  I  think  everybody  is  aware.   It  wasn't  a  matter  we 

6  would  brief  him  in  great  detail  on,  where  all  the  funds  were 

7  coming  from  or  exactly  —  although  there  is  one  note  in 

8  there.   Right  after  I  took  over  as  --  after  the  President 

9  named  me,  but  in  December  of  '85,  Mr.  McFarlane  was  still 

10  technically  the  National  Security  Adviser.   We  deemed  --  by 

11  we,  I  mean  the  NSC  staff  recommended  to  me,  I  agreed,  and 

12  the  President  agreed  that  I  should  make  a  quick  trip  to 

13  Central  America.   So  on  --  it  was  around  the  9th  or  10th 

14  of  December,  I  flew  down  to  Panama  one  night  and  the  next 

15  day  flew  back  up  through  Panama,  Costa  Rica,  El  Salvador, 

16  Honduras,  Guatemala,  and  then  gave  the  President  a  debriefing 

17  of  that  the  following  day.   The  note  of  that  debriefing  is 

18  in  the  material  I  provided  to  you  today. 

19  In  that  note,  I  did  give  him  a  rather  thorough 

20  briefing  of  the  situation  in  Central  America.   In  each 

21  country,  I  met  with  our  people  in-country,  the  ambassadors 

22  and  their  staffs,  and  with  the  military  leadership,  and  in 

23  some  of  the  countries,  I  met  with  the  political  leadership. 

24  It  was  a  very  quick  trip,  but  we  felt, /we  thought 

25  that  it  was  very  important  that  with  the  change  ift  the 


1061 


tMWI./^W' 


65 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


National  Security  Adviser,  that  the  Central  American 
countries  understand  we  weren't  changing  any  of  our  policies 
in  Central  America. 


As  a  result  of  that,  from  those 


there,  you  will  see  that  I  did  brief  the  President  on  that 
level  of  detail. 

We  would  keep  the  President  up  to  date  on 
roughly  how  many  democratic  resistance  we  thought  were 
in-country,  in  Nicaragua,  how  many  were  irH^^^^^Hthe 
general  activity  level.   But  the  general  broad  view  of  the 
situation  down  there. 

Q    When  you  just  referred  --  and  I  don't  want  to 
break  up  your  stream  of  consciousness,  you  are  talking  about 

the  page    where  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 

real  estate. 

A    That's  what  that  refers  to. 


iiMpi  AcciriFn 


1062 


BNtt/BSfllBT 


1  Q    That's  when  you  told  the  President  about  the  fact 

2  that^^^^^^^^^^^^^»ad  agreed  to  make  available  the 

3  airstrip  for  the  Secord  operation? 

4  A    That's  correct.   I  don't  recall  now  whether  I 

5  actually  mentioned  General  Secord 's  name  to  the  President 

6  or  not,  but  it  would  have  been  described  to  him  as  the 

7  private  effort  to  support  the  democratic  resistance. 

8  Mentioning  that  point  reminds  me  --  the  only  time 

9  I  can  recall  mentioning  General  Secord  to  the  President 
10    was  sometime  in  '86.   It  would  have  been  when  we  were 

■]1     talking  about  the  Iranian  project.   I  recall  saying  some- 

12  thing  to  the  effect  that  General  Secord  is  a  real  patriot. 

13  It's  too  bad  we  can't  recognize  all  that  he  has  done.   So 

14  the  President  should  be  aware  of  the  name,  but  the  President 

15  probably  would  not  be  aware  of  exactly  who  General  Secord 
1g    was  or  exactly  what  he  was  doing. 

17  MR.  NIELDS:   Are  you  saying  then  that  he  would 

not  have  known  that  General  Secord 's  name  was  associated 
with  the  contras? 

THE  WITNESS:   The  contras?   I  doubt  if  he  would 
be  aware  of  that.   It  is  possible  that  Mr.  McFarlane  in 
the  early  days  or  in  '86  --  I  would  have  mentioned  his  name 
in  connection  with  the  contras,  but  I  can't  recall  that. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    When  you  referred  to  General  Secord  as  A   great 


uttciissm 


1063 


M^ffffflT 


67 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


patriot  to  the  President,  you  were  referring  to  his  activities 
on  the  Iranian  initiative? 

A    Specifically. 

Q    Why  don't  you  keep  going. 

A  Okay.  In  the  --  well,  see,  kind  of  trying  to  keep 
this  in  chronological  order.  There  was  always  a  lot  of 
speculation  as  to  what  Colonel  North's  involvement  was, 
speculation  in  the  press.  Obviously  a  lot  of  telephone 
conversations  took  place  over  the  years  over  non^secure 
telephone  lines.  That  was  bother 


[knowing  what  a  controversial  issue  it  was  in 
the  United  States,  it  would  be  to  their  advantage  to  expose 
that  if  they  could  figure  that  out. 

We  surmised  that  a  lot  of  the  information  that 
was  leaking  out  was  disinformation,  some  of  it  prompted  by 
partial  truths. 


1064 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


mti 


:;iMii[.iM 


luuii  iLir 


63 


I  remember  at  the  time  cautioning  Colonel  North 
about  minimizing  his  telephone  calls,  not  talking  in  plain 
language,  and  it  may  very  well  have  been  that  my  discussions 
with  him  about  that  prompted  the  --  his  use  of  the  opera- 
tional cc 


In  the  fall  of  1985,  we  were  able  to  get  in  the 
legislation  at  the  time  some  relief  from  some  of  the 
restrictions.   In  fact,  that  was  a  turning  point  and  why 
I  openly  discussed  with  director  Casey  and  Secretary  Shultz, 
as  I  related  before,  efforts  to  identify  third  countries, 
because  we  felt  that  the  way  the  legislation  was  changed, 
that  the  State  Department  and  the  CIA  could  get  involved 
ir.  at  least  identifying  third-country  support. 

Also  in  early  1986,  we  were  anticipating  the 
expiration  of  the  S27  million  in  humanitarian  aid  and  it 
was  going  to  expire,  I  guess,  the  end  of  Marcn.   And  as 
I  recall,  there  was  a  provision  in  the  legislation  that 
the  President  at  that  point  could  come  up  and  request 
additional  assistance.   So  we  were  working  on  the  legis- 
lative plan  to  come  up  to  the  Congress  in  the  early  spring 
of  1986  to  ask  for  $100  million  to  include  military  assis- 
tance.  We  spent  a  lot  of  effort  on  that  legislative  plan, 
including  a  public  diplomaJfe  plan  to  try  to  go  With  it  to 
explain  the  President's  policy  again  to  the  Amerifcan  public. 


iiNPi  Accinrn 


1065 


HKftJfiSWHF 


69 


1  We  also  knew  at  that-time  that  even  if  --  well,  we 

2  were  rather  confident  we  could  win  the  vote  in  both  the 

3  House  and  the  Senate  at  that  point.   I  had  also  decided 

4  that  I  wasn't  going  to  compromise.   Either  we  were  going 

5  to  get  what  we  were  asking  for  this  time  or  we  wouldn't 

6  accept  anything  less  than  what  we  wanted.   As  it  turned  out, 

7  we  got  what  we  wanted.   At  least,  we  got  fairly  early  on, 

8  we  got  a  vote  in  the  House  and  we  got  a  vote  in  the  Senate; 

9  but  then,  due  to  the  legislative  process  up  on  the  Hill, 

10  and  I  think  it  was  primarily  the  House  leadership  resisted 

11  takmng  the  issue  to  conference,  and  so  we  didn't  actually 

12  get  the  SlOO  million  until  the  Continuing  Resolution  in 

13  October  of  '86. 

14  But  going  back  to  the  beginning  of  '86,  and 

15  I  am  keeping  my  comments  now  primarily  in  the  Central 

16  America  area,  the  obvious  connection  comes  in  about  this 

17  point.   After  the  Presidential  Finding  was  signed  on  17 

18  January,  and  we  were  proceeding  ahead  with  the  Iranian 

19  project,  at  some  point  Colonel  North  came  to  see  me.   My 
best  recollection  is  it  was  probably  in  February.   It  could 
have  been  after  that,  but  I  believe  it  was  in  February. 
He  came  into  my  office.   He  would  have  been  the  only 
person  there,  and  gave  me  a  status  report  on  the  Iranian 


24     project,  and  as  I  said,  we  had  been  working  on  the  legis- 
lative plan,  but  Ml «Sgii^Xh|t^||^w«| dicing  to  run  out  of 


25 


n«TOrafn° 


1066 


DMH/tSSHffi^ 


70 


1  money  before  we  could  get  the  SlOO  million  and  the  Sandinistas 

2  were  being  supplied  a  large  amount  of  Soviet  equipment.   We 

3  were  especially  concerned  about  the  HIND  helicopters 

4  because  they  are  so  effective  in  that  kind  of  —  that 

5  insurgency  because  of  their  mobility.   We  were  frankly 

6  concerned  about  the  abilities  of  the  contras  to  survive 

7  until  we  could  get  the  $100  million. 

8  Colonel  North  was  not  only  working  the  Iranian 

9  project,  but  he  was  also,  obviously,  as  I  have  told  you, 

10  working  Central  America.   After  he  finished  his  briefing 

11  on  the  status  report  of  the  Iranian  project,  he  said, 

12  "Admiral,"  or  words  to  this  effect,  "I  think  I  figured  out 

13  a  way  to  provide  some  funds  to  the  contras  out  of  the 

14  Iranian  project." 

15  My  impression  at  this  point  of  the  conversation 

16  was  that  it  was  clear  to  me  that  these  were  third>country 

17  or  private-party  funds  that  would  result  from  the  arms 

18  sale  to  the  Iranians  and  he  said,  "I  would  like  to  proceed 
ig  ahead  with  it."   I  said,  "Well,  let  me  think  about  it  for 
20  a  few  minutes." 

2\  I  thought  about  it.   I  felt  that  it  was  in  terms 

22  of   supporting  and  implementing  the  President's  policy,  that 

23  it  was  entirely  consistent. 

9^  The  President  really  never  changed  his.'  policy 


with  regard  to  supporting  the  contras  since  the  early 

mini  «c»(?pii!icn 


1067 


IM^lfiBr 


71 


1  decision  back  in  1981.   It  seemed  that  this  method  of 

2  financing  was  completely  consistent  with  what  we  had  been 

3  doing  in  terms  of  private  parties  and  third  countries. 

4  I  knew  that  it  would  be  a  controversial  issue. 

5  I  had  at  that  point  worked  with  the  President  for  about 

6  five-and-a-half  years,  and  for  three  of  those  five-and-a-half 

7  years,  very  directly,  meeting  with  him  many  times  a  day, 

8  often  spending  hours  every  day  with  him. 

g  So  I  not  only  clearly  understood  his  policy, 

10  but  I  also  thought  I  understood  the  way  he  thought  about 

11  issues. 

12  I  felt  that  I  had  the  authority  to  approve 

13  Colonel  North's  request.   I  also  felt  that  it  was,  as  I 

14  said,  consistent  with  the  President's  policy,  and  that  if 

15  I  asked  him,  I  felt  confident  that  he  would  approve  it. 

1g  But  because  it  was  controversial,  and  I  obviously 

knew  that  it  would  cause  a  ruckus  if  it  were  exposed,  I 
decided  to  insulate  the  President  from  the  decision  and 
give  him  some  deniability ;  and  so  I  decided  --  I  told 
Colonel  North  in  that  meeting,  after  thinking  about  it 
for  several  minutes,  to  go  ahead  and  proceed  ahead  with 
it,  that  it  was  a  method  of  essentially  providing  bridge 
financing  to  the  democratic  resistance  until  we  could  get 
the  legislation  passed,  and  I  decided  at  that  point  not 
to  tell  the  President. 


lUUMA^cinrn 


1068 


BNJBSSiflEIF' 


72 


1  I  didn't  tell  Colonel  North  that  I  was  not  going 

2  to  tell  the  President,  so  I  don't  believe  --  you  know,  the 

3  President  and  I  would  be  the  only  ones  that  can  --  that  know 

4  the  answer  to  that  question,  because  I  have  met  with  the 

5  President  privately.   I  recognize  that  it  would  be  a  lot 

6  easier  on  me  now  if  I  had  told  him,  but  honestly,  the  facts 

7  are  I  did  not  tell  him. 

8  Q    You  didn't  tell  him  then  or  at  any  other  time? 

9  A    Or  at  any  other  time  until  the  25th  of  November. 

10  Q    That's  the  first  time  you  told  the  President? 

11  A    That's  the  first  time  I  told  the  President. 

12  Q    You  say  you  realize  it  would  be  a  lot  easier 

13  on  youjf  if  you  told  the  President.   Would  you  explain  what 

14  you  mean? 

15  A    What  I  mean  is  that  I  think  that  he  would  --  if 

16  I  had  told  him  at  the  time,  and  this  was  part  of  my  thinking 

17  process  at  the  time,  was  that  I  was  very  confident  if  I 

18  had  told  him  about  it  and  asked  his  permission  to  do  it,  he 

19  would  probably  have  agreed. 

20  Q    All  right. 

21  A    It  would  now  be,  you  know,  his  responsibility 

22  rather  than  mine . 

23  Q    Let's  just  follow  that  through.   You  realize  if 

24  the  Independent  Counsel  considers  that  the  decision  to  use 

25  money  from  the  arms  sales  for  the  contras  to  be  a  crime, 

iiMmiCQicicn 


1069 


14 


20 
21 
22 

23 
24 
25 


tlN6LiM)9^ 


73 


1  that  you  have  now  said  that  you  made  the  decision  without  any 

2  express  authority  from  your  Commander  in  Chief? 

3  A     That's  correct. 

4  Q    And  you  realize  that  you  have  therefore  deprived 

5  yourself  of  the  defense  that  you  discussed  it  with  the 

6  President  and  that  the  President  approved  this? 

7  A    I  understand  that  very  well,  Mr.  Liman. 

8  Q    And  I  want  to  be  sure,  because  this  is  obviously 

9  a  question  that  is  on  the  minds  of  a  number  of  people.   And 

10  '^'^   not  trying  to  take  away  legal  defenses  in  terms  of 

11  your  apparent  authority,  Mr.  Beckler.   I  see  you  are  ready 

12  to  jump  in.   You  realize  that  this  is  an  important  issue 

13  in  the  investigation. 
You  are  an  Admiral;  correct? 

15         A    Correct. 

^g         Q    The  President  is  your  Commander  in  Chief? 

^j  A    Correct. 

^a         Q    Are  there  some  things  that  in  order  to  protect 

ig  the  Commander  in  Chief  you  would  lie  about? 


A    No.   At  this  point,  there,  are  not.   I  do  feel  — 
well,  let  me  put  it  this  w^. 

I  always  felt  as  the  National  Security  Adviser  — 
and  this  goes  back  to  —  well,  I  had  two  commissions. 
I  thinic  it  is  important  that  that  be  understood.^  I  had 
a  commission  not  only  as  a  naval  officer,  as  a  flight 

IIMOI  AQQIFIFJl 


1070 


Wlft^BffffiF 


1  officer,  an  Admiral  in  the  Navy;  but  I  also  had  a  commission 

2  as  assistant  to  the  President.   I  always  tried  to  keep  those 

3  two  positions  in  "my  mind  at  least  separate.   That's  frankly 

4  one  of  the  reasons  I  haven't  appeared  in  uniform.   I  think 

5  this  is  a  political  issue.   I  was  essentially  in  a  political 

6  position.   I  was  still  covered  by  the  Hatch  Act,  but  I 

7  haven't  been  out  involved  in  partisan  political  activity. 

8  And  I  felt  that  as  an  assistant  to  the  President, 

9  I  had  the  authority  to  make  those  kinds  of  decisions.   It 

10  was  a  judgment  call.   It  was,  you  know  —  clearly  it  was 

11  an  important  decision.   But,  as  I  said,  I  always  felt  that 

12  it  was  completely  consistent  with  other  methods  of  fina.icing 

13  the  contras  and  --  but  obviously  knew  that  it  would  be 

14  controversial. 

15  Q    Where  did  you  think  the  money  was  coming  from? 

16  MR.  NIELDS:   Wait  a  minute.   Did  you  get  an 

17  answer  to  your  question.   You  may  have,  but  I  am  not  sure. 

18  I  think  he  asked  you  whether  there  were  items,  you  are  an 

19  Admiral  — 

20  THE  WITNESS:  That  I  would  lie  about  now? 
2^  MR.  NIELDS:  To  protect  your  Commander  in 
22  Chief? 

9^  THE  WITNESS:   I  recognize  I  have  immunity  now 


24     with  the  exception  of  perjury  or  making  a  false 's^tatement . 


25 


What  I  am  telling  vqx^ai^  fi^JkbifWl^M^  facts  to  the  b*-^"^ 


iiU(iriiO(flCirn 


1071 


tHfUMtilr 


75 


1  of  my  knowledge  and  so  at  this  point,  even  to  protect  the 

2  President,  I  would  not  lie  about  it. 

3  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

4  Q     Did  you  — 

5  A    But  the  point  I  wanted  to  make  is  that  the  way 

6  I  viewed  my  position  as  assistant  to  the  President  at  the 

7  time  was  that  one  of  my  responsibilities  was  to  protect 

8  the  President;  and  I  felt  that  I  was  protecting  him  in 

9  this  regard  by  not  talking  to  him  about  it,  because  I  felt 

10  confident  that  he  felt  so  strongly  about  the  support  of  the 

11  democratic  resistance  and  preventing  the  consolidation 

12  of  that  communist  government,  that  he  would  have  approved 

13  It. 

14  Q    Did  you  participate  in  the  preparation  of 

15  inaccurate  chronologies  in  order  to  protect  the  President? 
15         A    No.   I  did  not.   The  chronology  was  prepared 

17     at  ray  direction.   I  read  in  the  Tower  Report  that  Don  Regan 
•)8     thinks  that  he  requested  it.   He  may  have  at  some  point  ,j 
•jg     but  when  we  came  back  from  California  in  early  November  of 
20     1986,  and  I  saw  that  it  was  going  to  be  a  problem,  and 

because  we  had  minimized  the  written  record  at  my  direction, 
on  the  whole  Iranian  project,  because  of  the  danger  that  I 
saw  of  leakage  to  a  very  sensitive  project  here  that 
involved  human  lives,  the  possible  opening  to  the  Iranian 
government,  which  would  have  clearly  mixed  reviews,  it  was 


i.would  have  clearly  mixe 


1072 


VNtli^llilttr 


76 


1  important  that  we  prevent  leakage  and  premature  exposure 

2  of  it.   But  once  the  information  began  to  leak  out  of  the 

3  Middle  East,  due  to  the  factional  infighting  in  Iran,  I 

4  realized  that  we  needed  a  source  document  in  the  White 

5  House  that  laid  out  as  best  we  could  precisely  what  had 

6  happened. 

7  So  my  direction  to  Colonel  North  was  to  prepare 

8  a  chronology  that  was  an  accurate  reflection  of  what 

9  happened. 

10  Now,  both  he  and  I  were  at  a  disadvantage  of  not 

11  being  directly  involved  in  the  first  few  months  of  the 

12  Iranian  project,  starting  from  the  time  period  in  July 

13  of  1985  through  November.   So  I  asked  him  to  contact 

14  Mr.  McFarlane  and  try  to  get  from  him  his  best  recollection 

15  of  the  first  few  months  of  the  project. 

1g  And  when  I  tasked  Colonel  North  to  prepare  the 

17  chronology,  either  at  that  time  or  within  a  day  or  two 

18  later,  I  made  it  clear  to  Colonel  North  that  the  chrono- 

19  logy  should  be  factual  and  lay  out  what  happened  with 

20  the  exception  of  the  contra  —  the  transfer  of  funds  to 

21  the  contras,  which  I  viewed  at  that  point  as  a  separate, 

22  although  obviously  related,  but  as  a  separate  issue. 
That  was  never  intended  to  be  in  there.   The  chronology 
was  prepared  not  to  be  a  public  document.   It  wa$  still 
classified.   It  went  through  several  iterations. 


mn  AQCinni 


1073 


18 


20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


Wlttil^tfiBr 


77 


1  You  know,  if  you  recall  the  time  period,  we  were 

2  being  beaten  about  the  head  and  shoulders  in  the  press  and 

3  we  didn't  have  many  written  records.   I  frankly  don't 

4  believe  that  Colonel  North  recalled  that  he  had  the  -- 

5  that  he  had  saved  the  PROF's  notes.   My  personal  policy 

6  was  that  about  once  a  month,  I  erased  all  of  my  PROF's 

7  notes  because  I  always  considered  the  PROF  system  as  a 

8  working  document  system,  not  part  of  the  official  record, 

9  and  routinely  about  once  a  month  went  in  there  and  erased 

10  it.   I  assumed  other  people  were  doing  the  same  thing. 

11  So  preparing  the  chronology  was  not  an  easy 

12  task. 

13  Q    Admiral,  the  chronology  put  forward  the  notion 
■^^  that  oil-drilling  equipment  was  shipped  in  November, 

didn't  it? 

A    That  what? 


^j  MR.  NIELDS:   Oil-drilling  equipment. 


BY  MR.  LIMAN: 


■^Q  Q    That  oil-drilling  equipment  was  shipped  in 


November;  correct? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    You  knew  that  it  was  Hawks;  correct? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q*    For  whose  protection  was  that  cover  stgry  put 
in  the  chronology? 


iiNpi  AfifiinFn 


1074 


UNSU^IGBr 


78 


1  A    Well,  let  me  make  one  main  point.   That  is  that 

2  I  never  felt  that  the  chronology  was  a  finished  document 

3  during  the  whole  time.   In  fact,  I  had  not  had  an  oppor- 

4  tunity  to  thoroughly  read  the  chronology  before  I  left 

5  the  White  House. 

6  Now,  the  issue  —  we  thought  and  the  President 

7  thought  that  he  could  remember  what  had  happened  on  the 

8  early  shipments  in  August  and  September  of  1985.   And, 

9  in  fact,  in  press  backgrounders  that  I  gave  during  that 

10  time  period,  in  one  of  the  press  backgrounders,  I  indicated 

11  that  there  had  been  one  prior  shipment  that  we  had  acquiesced 

12  to;  but,  frankly,  when  I  gave  that  press  backgrounder,  for 

13  example,  I  could  not  --  we  are  talking  about  events  that 

14  happened  a  year  before.   I  had  not  been  directly  involved 

15  in  setting  them  up. 

16  My  memory  of  that  time  period  was  very  fuzzy. 

17  But  the  week  of  17  November,  as  we  were  preparing  to 

18  brief  the  Hill  in  more  detail  on  what  had  happened,  it 

19  became  clear  that  Mr.  McFarlane's  recollection  as  to  what 

20  had  happened  in  November  of  1985  was  different  from 

21  '  Secretary  Shultz '  recollection. 

22  So  on  Thursday  the  20th  of  November,  Ed  Meese  -- 

23  I  asked  Ed  Meese  to  join  Director  Casey  and  I  as  we  sat 

24  down  to  go  over  our  respective  briefings  of  the  two 

25  Intelligence  Committees  the  following  day,  on  Friday. 

\mn  Acoicicn 


1075 


79 


1  At  that  point,  we  realized  that  we  didn't  have 

2  all  the  facts  on  what  had  happened  in  November  of  198  5. 

3  It  was  clear  to  me  that  it  wasn't  --  at  that  point,  it  was 

4  clear  to  me  that  it  wasn't  oil-drilling  equipment  but  we 

5  frankly  --  I  did  not  have  it  at  my  fingertips  at  that  point, 

6  all  the  facts. 

7  So  in  the  meeting,  we  decided  that  the  following 

8  day,  on  Friday,  that  Director  Casey  and  I  would  both  say 

9  that  there  had  been  some  shipments  by  the  Israelis  in 

10  November  of  '85.   We  still  weren't  clear  on  all  the  facts 

11  and  we  were  still  investigating  that.   So  that  part  of  the 

12  chronology  was  not  used. 

13  Q  That's  really  not  what  I  am  getting  at.  Admiral. 
■]4  Admiral,  you  pride  yourself  on  the  fact  that  you 
15     have  a  relatively  good  memory;  is  that  fair  to  say? 

.|g         A    Fair.   I  can't  remember  specifics  sometimes. 

Q    But  you  were  personally  involved  in  some  aspects 
of  that  Israeli  Hawk  shipment;  is  that  correct? 

A    Right.   That's  correct. 

Q    And  that  — 

A    At  least  from  the  standpoint  of  —  well,  it 
would  be  helpful  probably  at  this  point  for  me  to  go 
over  — 

Q    Let  me  just  ask.   You  were  told  in  Novamber 
that  the  Israelis  were  shipping  Hawks ;  am  I  correct? 


1076 


wnW.A5imTCif 


80 

tlT 

1  MR.  NIELDS:   Get  the  right  year. 

2  MR.  LIMAN:   November  of  '85? 

3  THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   With  hindsight,  as  I  can 

4  explain  to  you  in  a  little  bit,  I  was  aware  in  November 

5  of  '85  that  Hawks  were  being  shipped. 

6  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

7  Q    And  that  was  not  an  everyday  occurrence  in  terms 

8  of  your  responsibilities?   That  the  Israelis  would  send 

9  Hawks  to  Iran? 

10  A    Well,  that's  certainly  true. 

11  Q    Are  you  saying  that  in  November  of  '86,  you  had 

12  forgotten  it? 

13  A    That  is  the  honest  fact.   I  could  not  remember  -- 

14  I  mean  a  lot  of  water  had  passed  over  the  dam  since  then. 
-)5  I  had  been  heavily  involved  in  working  on  other  issues, 

■)g  arms  control,  U.S. -Soviet  relations.   I  could  not  remember 

■^j  what  had  happened  in  November  of  '85. 

'jg  In  November  of  '85,  as  I  pointed  out  earlier, 

ig  we  had  the  Geneva  summit.   Mr.  McFarlane  was  in  Geneva 

20  with  the  President.   I  was  holding  down  the  office  back 

21  here.   One  day  I  recall  getting  a  call  from  Commander 

22  Thompson  who  was  with  Mr.  McFarlane  at  the  time  and  saying 

23  something  to  the  effect  that  Mr.  McFarlane  had  called 

24  Colonel  North  and  asked  him  to  help  with  an  Israeli 

5-  aircraft  problem.   And,  as  I  recall.  Commander  Thtsmpson 


„JNfiASSIflFJl. 


1077 


BKftilSSfFfjT 


81 


1  was  talking  on  a  nonj^ecured  line  so  it  was  a  very  cryptic 

2  conversation.   I  had  —  after  that,  I  asked  Colonel  North 

3  to  come  over  to  find  out  what  it  was  and  part  of  this  that 

4  I  am  recalling  to  you  now  was  based  on  a  refreshing  of  my 

5  memory  by  Colonel  North  in  November  of  '86,  a  year  later. 

6  But  because  he  had  a  —  he  had  one  of  his  note- 

7  books  in  which  he  —  an  old  notebook  in  which  he  was 

8  briefing  me  on  a  conversation  that  he  had  had  with  me  in 

9  November  of  '85.   From  that  conversation  —  from  his 

10  debriefing  November  of  '86  of  the  conversation  in  November 

11  of  '8  5,  a  year  previous,  it  was  clear  that  we  knew  that 

12  there  were  Hawk  missiles  in  that  shipment.   But  when  I  did 

13  the  press  backgrounder,  and  when  the  early  version  of  the 

14  chronology  was  prepared,  I  frankly  could  not  remember  what 

15  had  happened  in  November  of  '8  5;  but,  as  I  said,  on  that 
15  Thursday,  prior  to  Director  Casey  and  I  talking  to  the 

17  Hill,  it  was  clear  that  --  see,  because  at  that  point 

18  Mr.  McFarlane  was  saying  that  we  didn't  know  weapons  were 

19  aboard.   At  that  point,  I  think  that  I  knew  that  we  did 

20  have  weapons  aboard,  and  Secretary  Shultz  —  his  recollection 

21  of  the  conversation  was  that  we  knew.   So  because  neither 

22  Colonel  North  and  I  had  been  directly  involved  in  the 

23  events  of  early  November,  '85,  and  exactly  what  was  known 
2^  ahead  of  time.  Director  Casey  and  I  decided  that  .'the  best 


25 


1078 


WElftSSIPiF 


82 


1  day  was  simply  to  say  that  we  knew  there  had  been  a  shipment 

2  in  November  of  '85  but  we  were  still  trying  to  collect 

3  all  the  facts  on  it. 
^         Q    Are  you  -- 

5  A    So  it  was  at  that  point  I  knew  that  the  oil 

6  drilling  part  in  the  chronology  was  not  correct,  but  again 

7  the  chronology  at  that  point  was  not  intended  to  be  a 

8  finished  document  and  it  certainly  wasn't  intended  to  be 

9  a  public  document. 

10  So  at  least  as  far  as  I  am  concerned,  Mr.  Liman, 

11  there  was  no  effort  on  my  part  to  create  a  fictitious 

12  story  in  that  chronology  with  that  particular  entry. 

13  MR.  BECKLER:   It  might  be  helpful  if  we  clarified 

14  the  chronology,  in  other  words,  the  date  of  the  chronology. 

15  The  only  chronology  in  evidence  right  now  is  that  dated 

16  November  20,  1986.   That  obviously  talks  about  18  Kawk 

17  missiles  to  Iran^^^^^^^^^^Hon  November  25. 

18  MR.  LIMAN:   We  are  talking  about  the  earlier 

19  one.   Admiral  Poindexter  knows  what  I  was  referring  to. 

20  Can  you  mark  as  the  next  exhibit  a  PROF  note 

21  dated  November  20,  1985,  to  the  Admiral  from  Colonel 

22  North. 

23  -  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  10  was 

24  marked  for  identification.) 


1079 


25 


iMKU^tSHIr 


83 


1  chronology  which  Mr.  Beckler  just  referred  to,  which  has 

2  been  marked  as  an  exhibit,  states  on  page  6  that  at  the 

3  time  of  the  shipment  we  were  assured  that  the  Israelis 

4  were  going  to  try  oil-drilling  parts  as  an  incentive  and 

5  the  reference  to  18  Hawk  missiles  comes  in  a  paragraph 

6  that  begins,  "In  January,  we  learned  the  Israelis  had 

7  learned  the  proprietary  aircraft  to  transport  18  Hawk 

8  missiles." 

9  MR.  BECKLER:   No.   There  is  an  11/20/86 

10  chronology. 

11  MR.  NIELDS:   That's  the  one  I  am  reading  from. 

12  MR.  BECKLER:   The  numbered  portion  which  I 

13  think  —  there  is  a  chronology  of  events.   Do  you  see  this 

14  portion? 

15  MR.  NIELDS:   Let's  get  the  number. 

16  MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   I  think  you  are  reading  from 

17  a  different  document,  Mr.  Beckler.   What's  the  Bates 

18  number? 

19  MR.  BECKLER:   00050. 
MR.  NIELDS:   Mine  is  00053,  which  has  been 

marked  as  an  exhibit.   I  was  reading  from  page  6. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Excuse  me.   This  is  exhibit  — 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 


24         Q    Would  you  look  — 


MR,  BECKLER:   Wait  a  minute.   Wait  a  minute. 


:kleR:   Wait  a  minute,   w 

IINPI  Acoitirn 


1080 


VRftil^fHffl^ 


84 


1  Exhibit  No.  5.   No .  5 . 

2  MR.  NIELDS:   That's  the  one  I  was  reading  from, 

3  the  historical  chronology? 

4  MR.  BECKLER:   No.   Chronology  of  events. 

5  MR.  NIELDS:   I  was  referring  to  the  document 

6  marked  11/20/86,  2000,  historical  chronology. 

7  MR,  BECKLER:   I  was  referring  to  the  chronology 

8  of  events. 

9  MR.  NIELDS:   Which  is  dated  a  half  an  hour 

10  earlier. 

11  MR.  BECKLER:   Correct.   1930. 

12  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

13  Q    Did  you  receive  this  PROF  note? 

14  A    I  probably  did.   Frankly,  it  is  so  long  ago 

15  I  can't  remember.   I  assume  that  I  did. 

16  Q    Am  I  correct  that  it  states  --  starts  by  saying 

17  the  Israelis  will  deliver  eight  modified  --  eight  mod  -- 

18  A    Eighty. 

19  Q    Eighty  mod  — 

20  A    Modified  Hawk_s. 

21  Q  ^^^^^^^^^H^^  noon  on  Friday,  November  22. 

22  These  80  will  be  loaded  aboard  three  chartered  aircraft 

23  owned  _by  a  proprietary  which  will  take  off  at  two-hour 

24  intervals  for  Tabriz;  correct?  *  ^ 

25  A  Right. 


UNCI  hmm 


1081 


wmsim 


1  Q    Then  it  goes  on  to  say,  in  the  third  paragraph, 

2  "replenishment  arrangements  are  being  made  through  the 

3  Ministry  of  Defense  purchasing  office  in  New  York  City. 

4  There  is,  to  say  the  least,  considerable  anxiety  that  we 

5  will  somehow  delay  on  their  plan  to  purchase  120  of  these 

6  weapons  in  the  next  few  days.   I  am  awaiting  your  instruc- 

7  tions.   I  have  told  their  agent  that  we  will  sell  them 

8  120  items  at  a  price  they  can  meet.   I  further  told  them 

9  that  we  will  make  no  effort  to  move  on  their  purchase"  -- 

10  what  does  LOA  mean?   LOA  request? 

11  A    Letter  of  agreement. 

12  Q    --  "letter  of  agreement  request  until  we  have 

13  all  five  American  citizens  safely  delivered.   In  short, 

14  the  pressure  is  on  them." 

15  This  is  not  the  ordinary  message  that  you 
15  would  receive?   That's  fair,  isn't  that,  to  say? 

17  A    Well,  it  certainly  is  not  an  ordinary  message. 

18  Q     In  two  aspects.   Didn't  this  message,  first, 

19  the  hope  that  you  would  get  the  hostages  back? 

20  A    Yes. 

21  Q    Yes? 

22  A    Yes. 

23  Q    And  the  hostage  matter  wasKsome  concern  to  the 

24  President? 

25  A    A  great  deal  of  concern. 


1082 


WH 


li^ill',ii\^ 


__  86 

»uuTn0 

1  Q    And  it  also  involved  shipping  Havfis^  to  Iran; 

2  is  that  correct? 

3  A    That's  correct. 

4  Q    And  we  had  been  trying  to  discourage  other 

5  governments  from  shipping  arms  to  Iran;  is  that  right? 

6  A    That's  correct. 

7  Q    And  so  here  you  are  getting  a  PROF  note  from 

8  North  telling  you  that  we  were  not  only  facilitating  the 

9  shipment  of  these  Hawks  to  Iran  by  Israel,  but  we  were 

10  going  to  replenish  the  Israeli  stocks;  is  that  right? 

11  A    That's  correct. 

12  Q    And  are  you  --  just  let  me  make  it  clear.   Are 

13  you  saying  that  in  November  of  1986,  that  you  thought  that 

14  what  was  in  the  shipment  to  Iran  were  oil-drilling  parts? 

15  A    What  I  am  saying,  Mr.  Liman,  is  that  up  until  -- 

16  I  did  not  have  access  to  this  PROF'S  note  in  November  of 

17  1986.   As  I  said,  my  policy  was  to  erase  my  PROF's  notes 

18  about  once  a  month.   What  I  am  saying  is  that  in  the 

19  early  weeks  of  November  of  1986,  I  could  not  recall  what 

20  had  happened  in  November  of  1985. 

21  Again,  you  know,  part  of  the  reason  for  that, 

22  I  am  sure,  is  that  I  was  not  involved  with  the  decisions 

23  with  the  Israelis  at  that  point.   I  was  not  involved  in 

24  discussing  the  matter  with  the  President.   I  had'tpissed 

25  a  major  NSPG  meeting  in  August  of  1985,  because  I  had  been 


:ing  in  August  or  i^oa,  d 


1083 


'UiKU^fflHIr 


1  on  leave  during  --  during  an  important  NSPG  meeting  that 

2  discussed  this  issue. 

3  So  even. though  acting  in  Mr.  McFarlane's  stead, 

4  while  Colonel  North  and  I  were  back  here,  I  did  get 

5  involved  in  November  of  1985.   In  the  early  weeks  of 

6  November  of  1986,  I  could  not  remember  this  series  of 

7  events. 

8  Q    So  you  are  saying  that  this  left  no  imprint 

9  on  your  memory? 

10  A    No.   Clearly  it  was  part  of  the  Iranian  project. 

11  I  obviously  was  very  familiar  with  the  Iranian  project 

12  from  December  of  1985  on;  but  those  first  few  months  of 

13  I  the  Iranian  project  did  not  leave  an  indelible  image  on 

14  my  memory  as  to  what  happened. 

15  Now,  as  the  days  of  November  of  1986  wore  on, 

16  and  Colonel  North  did  go  back  at  one  point  and  dig  out 

17  one  of  his  old  notebooks  and  read  to  me  some  briefing  notes 

18  that  he  had  used,  we  did  not  pull  up,  for  instance,  this 

19  old  PROF'S  note  in  November  of  1986.   As  I  said,  I  doubt 

20  seriously  if  Colonel  North  realized  that  all  of  his  PROF's 

21  notes  were  still  saved. 

22  Q    But  I  am  not  asking  you  about  PROF  notes  in  terms 

23  of  what  you  pulled  out.   I  £un  asking  you  about  your  memory. 

24  Because  even  if  this  PROF  note  didn't  exist,  the.' question 

25  is  whether  this  was  an  unusual  enough  event  in  your  career 

imm  Accincn 


1084 


VNCLimiffli' 


accurate . 


^  that  It  would  have  left  some  imprint  on  your  mind  in 

2  1986? 

3  A    You  know,  it  clearly  didn't.   I  must  say  that 
^  the  statement  about  the  oil-drilling  equipment  also 
5  didn't  ring  any  bells,  and  I  doubt/ seriously  if  that 
6 

7  The  chronology,  as  I  said,  went  through  several 

8  iterations.   The  first  version  of  the  chronology  I  can 

9  recall  getting  at  about  30  minutes  before  I  was  to  be 

10  down  in  the  situation  room  with  the  President  to  brief 

11  the  congressional  leadership  on  the  general  outlines  of 

12  the  program;  and  I  did  not  have  ti::ie  to  read  that  version 

13  of  the  chronology  before  that  briefing. 

14  With  the  press  of  other  events,  as  things  went 

15  on,  I  never  had  a  chance  to  sit  down  and  go  through  this 

16  until  that  Thursday  that  Ed  Meese  and  Bill  Casey  and  I  met 

17  to  discuss  the  briefings  to  the  congressional  committees 

18  the  following  day. 

19  And  at  that  point,  I  realized  that  the  chronology 

20  was  very  delinquent  in  that  area.   I  frankly  was  annoyed 

21  about  it,  because  I  had  not  only  told  Colonel  North  to 

22  work  with  Mr.  McFarlane  on  figuring- out  what  had  happened 

23  in  198_5,  but  I  had  made  it  a  point  of  inviting  Bud  down 

24  to  a  lunch  in  the  White  House  at  which  Dr.  Keel,'  my 

25  deputy  at  the  tir«««iaJk-in_oa  tJie  lunch.   The  whole  purpose 


Tiiffl(*ni°^<ff« 


1085 


24 
25 


M^BflBF 


1  of  the  lunch  was  to  ask  Bud  to  prepare  a  memorandum  for 

2  record  that  would  have  covered  the  first  few  months  of  the 

3  pro;ect  m  1985. 

4  For  one  reason  or  another.  Bud  had  declined  to 

5  do  that.   He  didn't  tell  me  he  wouldn't  do  it.   But,  as  a 

6  matter  of  fact,  he  didn't  do  it.   I  felt  very  inadequate 

7  in  terms  of  laying  out  what  the  facts  were  during  July, 

8  August,  September,  October  and  November  of  1985. 

9  Q     Admiral,  even  after  the  shipment  of  Hawks  took 

10  place  -- 

11  A     Right. 

12  Q    --  did  you  not  get  reports  from  Colonel  North 

13  in  1985  and  in  1986  that  the  Iranians  were  unhappy  with 

14  the  Hawks  they  received? 

15  A    Absolutely. 

15         Q     So  that  this  shipment  had  not  only  run  into 

17  logistics  problem  ^"^^^^^^|  ^^^   ^^'^   ended  up  creating 

18  a  problem  in  Iran;  correct? 

19  A    Absolutely.   In  fact  —  maybe  I  haven't  made 

20  myself  very  clear  here.   But  in  November  of  1986,  I  was 

21  aware  that  Hawk  missiles  had  been  shipped  by  the 

99  Israelis  to  Iran  in  November  of  1985.   But  what  we  were 


23     trying  to  lay  out  in  the  chronology  was  the  sequence 


of  events  that  happened.   I  wasn't  sure  in  the  'first  few 
weeks  of  November £rf, 3^16  that  indeed  we  were  aware  when 


Ifliili^rA^cincff 


1086 


tWHJ^tPmr 


90 


1  the  shipment  was  being  planned  that  they  contained  H^wks . 

2  As  my  recollection  improved  during  November  of  '86,  and 

3  especially  after  Colonel  North  had  pulled  out  one  of  his 
^  old  notebooks,  it  was  clear  that  in  November  of  '85,  that 

5  we  knew  well  ahead  of  time  that  there  were  Hawk  missiles 

6  aboard.   But,  you  know,  it  was  --  I  guess  this  isn't  a 

7  very  good  excuse,  but  November  of  1986  was  a  very  confusing 

8  time  for  us. 

9  Q    Was  there  any  effort  in  November  of  1986  to  put 

10  out  a  cover  story? 

11  A    Not  as  far  as  I  was  concerned,  Mr.  Liman. 

12  Q    Whether  it  was  to  protect  the  lives  of  the 

13  hostages  or  protect  anything  else,  was  there  any  desire 

14  that  you  expressed  to  anyone  to  put  out  a  covery  story? 

15  A    There  was  no  effort  to  mislead  anybody  that  I 

16  endorsed  or  initiated  in  November  of  1986.   Now,  there 

17  was  concern  about  the  hostages.   There  was  a  concern  on 

18  my  part  of  the  damage  that  the  revelation  of  this  was 

19  going  to  do  in  terms  of  the  possibility  of  preserving 

20  the  channel  that  we  had  developed  to  the  Iranian  government; 

21  and  so  during  the  first  few  weeks,  the  President's  press 

22  conference,  and  the  speech  that  he  made  on  national 

23  television,  yes,  there  was  an  effort  there  not  to  lay  out 

24  all  the  details.   We  wanted  to  --  especially  dur»ing  --  the 
OR  point  of  the  speech  which  I  recall  came  first,  we  wanted  to 

iiMPi  ACQincn 


1087 


mmm 


91 


withhold  the  fact  that  --  of  Israel's  direct  involvement 
and  to  put  out  frankly  as  little  information  as  we  could 
in  those  early  days  of  November. 

Yes.   That  was  clearly  an  effort,  because  we 
were  concerned  about  the  safety  of  the  hostages  and  I  was 
concerned  about  preserving  that  channel  to  the  Iranians. 
In  fact,  as  November  wore  on,  we  continued  to 
maintain  contact  with  the  Iranians  even  as  late  as  after 
the  President's  press  conference.   We  were  nurturing  that 
along,  hoping  to  manage  it  in  such  a  way  that  we  wouldn't 
completely  damage  the  channel.   And  so  there  was  a  concern 
on  our  part  at  least  in  terms  of  public  statements  of 
laying  out  all  the  facts;  and  so  to  that  extent,  yes,  we 
were  withholding  information.   But  there  was  never  any 
effort  on  my  part  to  mislead  or  deceive  anybody. 

You  know,  you  or  somebody  else  could  interpret 
withholding  information  as  misleading,  but  --  I  guess 
that's  a  judgment  call. 

Q    I  was  putting  — 

A    I  don't  view  it  that  way. 

Q    I  was  addressing  myself  to  representing  our 
knowledge  as  being  —  that  the  shipment  involved  oil- 
drillijng  equipment  when  it  involved  Hawks .   That  is  what 
I  was  addressing  myself  to. 

A    I  frankly,  think,  you  know  —  I  know  that  I 


YitiifiVrd6"irii:h 


1088 


'UNEIi^lfiS' 


'  didn't  provide  any  direction  to  do  that,  to  create  a 

^  fictitious  story  there.   Looking  back  on  it,  I  think,  as 

^  best  I  can  speculate  what  Colonel  North  was  trying  to  do  in 

^  the  chronology  was  initially  to  lay  out  the  situation  as 

5  it  happened.   I  don't  know.   I  haven't  talked  to  Ollie. 
*         Q    Since  when? 

7  A    Since  --  we  had  a  lunch  with  -- 

8  MR.  SMALL:   Well  -- 

9  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

10  Q    Have  you  talked  to  him  alone,  without  your 

11  counsel  being  present? 

12  A    I  have  not. 

13  Q    Since  when? 

14  A    Since  the  day  that  I  left  --  let  me  ]ust  be 

15  sure  I  am  absolutely  right  here. 

16  The  best  of  my  recollection,  the  last  time  I 

17  talked  to  Ollie  alone  or  in  private  was  by  telephone  on 

18  the  25th  of  November. 

19  Q    Admiral,  if  you  look  at  this  exhibit  that  is 

20  in  front  of  you,  it  has  an  update.   Look  at  the  paragraph 

21  that  says  "Update  as  of  1810."   RCM  is  who?   Mr.  McFarlane. 

22  the  first  page.   I  am  sorry.   I  apologize  and  I  will  — 

23  A"    Update  as  of  0920. 

24  Q    Before  I  turn  to  that,  let  me  just  make,' sure 

25  I  covered  soiriekt^hinJllMpi  'ilv^^^riPf|i'°'^  ^^^®  *^° 


1089 


wtssiRgr 


93 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


leave , 


Let  me  go  back  to  this  matter  of  using  the 
funds  from  the  arms  sales. 

MR.  NIELDS:   Don't  go  back.   Stay  with  this. 
I  have  a  few  things  I  want  to  ask. 

.MR.  LIMAN:   I  would  like  to  mark  as  the  next 
exhibit,  No.  11,  a  two-page  PROF  note  that  bears  our  Bates 
No.  N-28626  from  Colonel  North  to  you. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  11  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
.MR.  LIMAN:   Take  your  time  in  reading  it. 
THE  WITNESS:   Okay. 
BY  MR.  LI.MAN: 
Q    You  recognize  that  as  another  PROF  note  you 
received  from  North? 

A    I  don't,  again,  at  this  point  recall  receiving 
It  m  time,  but  it  looks  like  I  did  receive  it  and  I 
probably  did. 

Q    It  describes  the  efforts  that  General  Secord 
was  making  to  get  this  flight  through;  right? 
A    Right. 

Q    If  you  look  down  on  the  update  as  of  1810,  it 
"J^obert  McFarlane  contacted^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Kt 
1 7  30  .|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|has  agreed  to  have  aircraft 
TA  land^^^^^^^^P  mM^lfcs^^ft^^ll*H*l%has  arranged 


Jf^WfltClHEtt 


1090 


ixMi/^n' 


94 


1  for  a  proprietary  to  work  for  Secord.   ^opp"  --  just  in 

2  case  you  didn't  know  his  code  name  --  "popp  will  charter 

3  two  707s  in  the  name  of  Lake  Resources,  our  Swiss  company. 

4  A    Again  I  think  that  is  an  example  of  Colonel 

5  North's  expansiveness . 

6  Q    Okay.   I  wanted  to  ask  you  about  this. 

7  A    Yes. 

8  Q    Had  you  ever  heard  of  Lake  Resources  before? 

9  A    At  this  time,  I  have  trouble  answering  that. 

10  This  would  have  been  my  first  indication  that  a  company 

11  called  Lake  Resources  was  what  Dick  Secord  was  using  or 

12  not. 

13  Q    Did  you  ever  ask  North  what  he  meant  by  "our 

14  Swiss  company"? 

15  A    Well,  I  tried  to  put  those  kinds  of  comments 
■)5  of  Colonel  North's  in  perspective  earlier.   I  frankly  -- 
17  in  notes  from  Ollie  North  that  have  "our"  and  "my"  in  it, 
■)Q  I  tended  to  discount,   you  know,  what  that  means.   That 

•jg  clearly  at  this  point,  I  would  —  at  the  time  I  would 

2Q  have  interpreted  that  to  mean  Dick  Secord 's  company.  Lake 

21  Resources. 

22  Ollie  had  a  very  close  working  relationship 

23  with  Dick  Secord.   I  see  why  he  would  call  it  "our." 

24  I  always  felt  that  technically  it  was  Dick  Secord 's 

25  company. 


\\m  m\m 


1091 


-iifilttSMEfr 


95 


1  Q    Let  me  put  it  to  you  this  way.   When  he  refers 

2  here  to  a  proprietary,  what  did  you  understand  the  proprie- 

3  tary  to  be ,  a  CIA  proprietary? 

4  A    A  CIA  proprietary. 

5  Q    A  CIA  proprietary  means  that  it's  a  company 

6  the  CIA  owns  but  it's  held  .ei*|(b^  as  being  something  owned 

7  by  the  CIA? 

8  A    They  conduct  business  and  have  aircraft 
g    available  to  perform  CIA  missions  when  needed. 

•jg         Q    Did  you  have  an  understanding  that  Colonel 
•)1     North  was  creating  proprietaries  for  the  NSC? 

A    That  was  not  the  way  I  looked  at  it.   I  can 
understand  how  you  would  consider  it  that  way,  but  I  did 
not  --  I  never  thought  of  Lake  Resources  as  an  NSC 
proprietary.   I  can  understand  how  you  would  conclude 
that. 

Q    From  reading  this? 

A    From  reading  that,  exactly. 

Q    And  if  you  look  at  the  update  -- 

A    I  don't  recall  ever  talking  to  Colonel  North 
or  anybody,  for  that  matter,  you  know,  using  the  terms 
an  NSC  proprietary.   That  kind  of  comparison  just  simply 
didn't- cross  my  mind. 

Q    So  who  did  you  think  owned  Lake?       , 


1092 


24 
25 


BNBti^ffe' 


96 


1  Q    If  you  look  —  why  did  you  think  that? 

2  A    Based  on  reports  Colonel  North  had  given  me. 

3  Q    What  did  he  say? 

4  A     I  can't  recall  the  first  time  that  I  became 

5  aware  of  Lake  Resources.  This  could  very  well  have  been 

6  the  first  time. 

7  I  don't  recall  questioning  Colonel  North  as  to 

8  exactly  what  the  company  structures  were  or  who  the  owners 

9  were.   I  clearly  knew  that  Lake  Resources  was  involved  in 

10  supporting  the  contras  in  Central  America. 

11  I  also  knew  they  were  involved  in  the  Iranian 

12  project,  because  when  we  were  working  on  the  finding  that 

13  resulted  in  the  17  January  finding,  it  was  clear  to  me 

14  that  Bill  Casey  was  going  to  use  a  private  agent  as  the 

15  method  of  selling  the  arms  to  the  Iranians  and  I  can't 

16  recall  recommending  to  Director  Casey  that  he  use  General 

17  Secord.   I  was  aware  that  he  was  going  to  use  General 

18  Secord.   But  as  far  as  I  was  concerned,  that  was  his 

19  decision.   I  certainly  endorsed  it. 

20  As  I  told  you  before,  I  had  great  respect  for 

21  General  Secord.   He  had  demonstrated  over  the  months 

22  prior  to  that  his  effectiveness  in  carrying  out  the 

23  support  of  the  contras. 


Q    Now,  if  you  look  at  the  next  update,  it.'s  on 

c 

the  second  page  of  this,  it  says,  "Advise  ^opp  of  lack 

..   iiiim  Aooinrf) 


1093 


BNftimEiT 


97 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


of"  --  what  does  ?U  mean  there? 
MR.  NIELDS:  Pick  up. 
BY  MR.'  LIMAN: 

Q     "Pick  up  aircraft.   He  has  advised  we  can  use 
one  of  our  Lake  Resource  aircraft  which  was 
to  pick  up  a  load  of  ammunition  for  UNO.   He  will  have 
the  aircraft  repainted  tonight  and  put  into  service  not 
later  than  noon  Saturday  so  that  we  can  at  least  get  this 
thing  moving.   So  help  me,  I  have  never  seen  anything 
so  screwed  up  in  my  life.   We  meet  with  Calero  tonight 
to  advise  the  ammunition  will  be  several  days  late  in 
arriving. " 

Do  you  recall  that  at  all? 

A    I  recall  it  now.   Of  course,  being  refreshed 
by  this  note  and  I  believe  this  one  is  in  the  Tower 
Commission  Report. 

But  again,  in  the  first  few  weeks  of  November 
of  1986,  I  simply  did  not  remember  this  detail. 

Q    Did  you  remember  — 

A    Now  I  remembered  that  Mr.  McFarlane  was  in 
Geneva  and  that  Ollie  had  worked  on  an  aircraft  problem. 
I  recall  that  Dick  Secord  was  involved,  and  the  reason 
that  be  was  involved  is  that,  as  Ollie  points  out  in 
this  note,  that  he  was  --  Secord  was  at  the  time! 
[working  on  a  shipment  to  the  contras .   Very 


3n  a  shipment  to  tne  cont 

iiMAi  ifioirirn 


1094 


**^«^«    ■  ^  -^  ■  Til  1  ■ 

iNfti^inEBr 


98 


^  frankly,  in  November  of  1985,  both  Colonel  North  and  I  felt 

2  that  this  whole  operation  was  screwed  up. 

3  Q    What  operation? 

*         A    The  Iranian  business;  and  that's  one  of  the 

5  reasons  that  in  December  of  1985,  when  I  took  over,  I 

6  wanted  to  get  the  whole  thing  on  a  much  more  organized 

7  basis.   I  wanted  to  get  the  CIA  formally  involved  because 

8  of  their  expertise  in  logistics;  and  I  wanted  to  get  the 

9  thing  on  paper  as  to  what  our  objectives  were  and  exactly 

10  what  the  President  approved,  because  in  November  of  '85, 

11  I  was  very  confused  as  to  what  had  been  approved  and  what 

12  hadn't  been  approved  and  frankly  thought  that  it  had  been 

13  run  in  a  very  slipshod  manner. 

14  EXAMINATION  BY  COUNSEL  FOR 

15  THE  HOUSE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

16  BY  MR.  NIELDS: 

17  Q    Isn't  it  true  this  Hawk  shipment  was  a  gigantic 

18  snafu? 

19  A    Yes,  it  was. 

20  Q    It  was  the  Israeli's  snafu,  principally; 

21  isn't  that  right? 

22  A    Yes.   I  basically  think  Schwimmer  was  not 

23  handling  it  very  well  at  all.   What  I  started  to  say 

24  earlier  was  that  at  some  point  after  my  meeting  with  Nir 

25  in  early  January  of  '86  —  and  I  don't  recall  that  Hawks 


1095 


mttASSiFIBi' 


99 


1  came  up  in  that  meeting,  but  either  at  that  meeting  or 

2  after  that  meeting,  it  became  clear  to  me  the  facts  that 

3  you  were  reciting  earlier,  that  the  Israelis  shipped  the 

4  wrong  thing.   They  didn't  —  did  not  ship  what  the  Iranians 

5  wanted;  and  furthermore,  the  missiles  that  were  shipped  had 

6  Israeli  markings  on  them,  which  just  simply  infuriated  the 

7  people  in  Iran  that  offloaded  it. 

8  Generally,  you  know,  we  thought  it  was  a  dumb 

9  idea.   Number  one,  we  --  it  wasn't  clear  to  us  that  the 

10  Iranians  needed  H^^  missiles.   We  thought  they  had  a 

11  lot  of  Hawk  missiles  left  from  the  Shah's  days.   As  it 

12  turned  out  from  one  of  the  conversations  that  Colonel 

13  North  reported  to  me  of  having  with  the  Iranians, 
apparently  what  they  wanted  them  for  was  that  they  reported 
to  us  that  there  had  been  Soviet  overflights  of  the  northern 
part  of  Iran,  and  they  were  at  very  high  altitude. 

The  reason  that  one  —  one  of  the  reasons  that 
we  got  them  off  of  asking  for  Hawks  was  that  we  explained 
to  them  that  even  our  improved  version  of  the  Hawks  would 
not  handle  the  kind  of  target  that  they  were  talking  of. 
If  they  wanted  to  go  after  the  Soviet  aircraft,  the  H^wk 
wasn't  going  to  solve  their  problem. 

Q-    The  Israelis  also  screwed  up  the  transportation 
of  these  Hawks?  / 

I        A    They  did.   It  was  very  screwed  up. 

25 1  iiiiAi  ioriirirn 


1096 


22 
23 
24 
25 


100 


1  Q    You  were  aware  of  the  screw-up  on  the  transpor- 

2  tation  and  the  type  of  weapons  shipped  and  the  fact  they 

3  had  the  Israeli  markings  on  them  at  the  time? 

4  A    At  the  time,  that's  correct. 

5  Q     It  was  --  that  formed  a  principal  reason,  did 

6  it  not,  for  your  decision  or  our  Government's  decision 

7  to  take  control  over  the  operation  away  from  the  Israelis? 

8  A    Well,  that  was  part  of  it.   That's  not  the  total 

9  reason,  Mr.  Nields. 

•JO  Q  That   is  one   factor? 

■)•)         A    That  IS  cne  factor.   There  is  another  factor, 

12  which  I  can  get  to. 

13  Q    We  will  get  to  that  later,  I  am  sure. 
The  point  is  here  that  this  whole  business 

with  the  Hawks  made  a  distinct  impression  on  your  mind 
at  the  time? 

A    At  the  time.   It  certainly  did. 

Q     In  one  of  these  PROF  memos  there  is  a  reference 
to  the  immediate  need  of  the  Israelis  for  replenishment 
of  the  Hawk  missiles? 


14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 

20 

21         A    Right. 


Q  Do  you  know  Colonel  Powell,  Colin  Powell? 

A.  General  Powell? 

A  General  Powell.   Excuse  me.  , 

A  Yes,  I  do.   He  was  at  the  time  --  November  of 

iiiini  looinrn 


1097 


WIttiWffBF 


101 


'85  --  he  would  have  been  military  assistant  to  the 
Secretary  of  Defense.   So  I  dealt  with  him  quite  frequently 
over  the  years  prior  to  my  being  National  Security 
Adviser . 

Q    Did  you  contact  him  around  the  middle  of 
November,  1985,  in  order  to  find  out  if  we  could  replenish 
Hawks? 

A    I  have  a  vague  recollection  of  doing  that. 
There  were  several  discussions.   As  far  as  I  knew  at  the 
time,  I  think  he  and  the  Secretary  of  Defense  were  the 
only  ones  in  the  Defense  Department  that  I  knew  of  that 
were  aware  of  anything  about  the  Iranian  project  that 
Mr.  McFarlane  had  started  with  the  President's  agreement. 
MR.  LIMAN:   How  did  you  know  that? 
THE  WITNESS:   Well,  I  guess  I  probably  assumed 
it.   I  knew  that  Secretary  Weinberger  had  been  in  on 
meetings  on  the  subject  of  what  the  Iranians  wanted  to  do, 
and  I  guess  I  assumed  that  he  had  probably  told  Colin 
Powell,  because  my  experience  up  until  that  time  would 
have  been  that  Colin  Powell  knew  essentially  everything 
that  Secretary  Weinberger  knew.   It  may  have  been  a  false 
assumption. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Do  you  actually  have  a  recollection 
as  you  sit  here  today,  now,  of  talking  to  Colin  Powell 
about  the  replacements? 


UNCIMSIFIED 


1098 


IIHUl/HHIIllODl 


1  THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  have  a  distinct  recollection 

2  of  a  telephone  conversation  during  that  time  frame.   But  I 

3  do  recall  at  some  point  in  the  process  talking  to  General 
^  Powell  about  replacements  for  the  Israelis. 

5  BY  MR.  NIELDS: 

6  Q    Hawks? 

7  A    Hawks. 

8  MR.  LIMAN:   If  you  were  talking  about  replace- 

9  ments  for  the  Israeli  Hawks,  would  I  be  correct  that  that 

10  would  have  meant  that  that  conversation  took  place  at  a 

11  time  when  the  --  when  it  was  contemplated  that  the  Israelis 

12  would  be  shipping  those  Hawks  to  Iran?   Because  after 

13  the  --  this  debacle,  the  Hawks  were  going  to  be  returned 

14  to  the  Israelis. 

15  THE  WITNESS:   But  we  didn't  know  that,  Mr.  Liman. 

16  At  the  time  that  things  were  happening  in  November  of  '85, 

17  we  frankly  didn't  know  how  screwed  up  it  was.   We  didn't 

18  know  they  had  shipped  the  wrong  thing.  We  didn't  know  that 

19  the  Iranians  had  refused  it. 

20  EXAMINATION  BY  COUNSEL  FOR 

21  THE  SENATE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

22  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

23  Q-    When  do  you  fix  the  time  that  you  knew  that 

24  the  Israelis  would  not  need  a  replacement  for  Hawjts? 
pe         A    Probably  not  until  sometime  early  in  1986. 

25  iiiiAi  aooirim^ 


1099 


20 
21 
22 


24 
25 


VNOU^IflEffr 


103 


1  Q     You  fix  it  with  when  Nir  is  in  the  picture,  or 

2  before?   Nir  comes  in  in  the  beginning  of  January. 

3  A     I  would  .place  it  after  that.   Because  I  see, 

^  I  believe  my  notes  —  maybe  I  could  review  that  one  exhibit 

5  I  believe  my  notes  with  Nir  refer  to  the  TOWs ,  but  I  don't 

6  believe  it  refers  to  the  Hajiks . 

7  You  see,  the  other  interesting  thing  is,  I  know 

8  it  maybe  sounds  unbelievable  that  I  couldn't  remember  in 

9  early  '86,  but  even  —  see,  if  you  go  back  to  my  notes  in 

10  briefing  the  President,  I  noted  here  that  we  talked  -- 

11  Q    What  date  are  you  looking  at?   What  number? 

12  MR.  BECKLER:   Bates  No.  >9   on  Exhibit  No.  1. 

13  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

14  Q    All  right. 

15  A    I  don't  think  we  say  anything  there  about 

16  Hawks. 

17  Q    This  is  the  January  2,  '86? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  Q    Doesn't  mention  Hawks. 
A    It  does  mention  the  TOWs;  and  so  I  can't  — 

you  know,  obviously  something  about  the  Ha^s  did  not 
leave  the  kind  of  indelible  impression  on  my  mind  that 


23    you  think  it  did. 


MR.  NIELDS:   Was  there  an  original  ide^  it 
would  be  a  larger  number  of  Haifks,  500 ,  4  00? 


r  number  of  Ha»xs,  3^^^ 

luioi  Acoicicn 


1100 


MiMm^ 


104 


1  THE  WITNESS:   I  believe  so,  but  as  to  when  I 

2  have  most  recently  become  aware  of  that,  I  would  have  to 

3  go  back  through  this  stuff  and  see. 

4  I  think  somewhere  in  the  Tower  Commission  Report 

5  there  is  a  reference. 

6  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

7  Q    Are  you  just  reciting  what  is  in  the  Tower 

8  Commission  Report  or  did  that  refresh  your  recollection? 

9  A    No.   It  really  doesn't  refresh  my  recollection. 

10  Q     I  don't  want  you  to  simply  give  us  back  what 

11  is  in  the  Tower  Commission  Report. 

12  A     Yes. 

13  MR.  NIELDS:   You  said  earlier  you  were  very 

14  dissatisfied  at  sometime  during  the  week  of  the  17  of 

15  November,  1986,  with  the  chronology? 

16  THE  WITNESS:   Yes. 

17  EXAMINATION  BY  COUNSEL  FOR 
13  THE  HOUSE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

19  BY  MR.  NIELDS: 

20  Q    At  what  point  did  you  become  dissatisfied  on 

21  this  point? 

22  A    Again  we  were  trying  to  recall  what  happened 

23  in  '85.   I  really  became  dissatisfied  when  I  learned  that 

24  Secfretary  Shultz '  recollection  of  the  events  o^  November, 

25  "86,  disagreed  with  Mr.  McFarlane's. 


UNCLASSMD 


1101 


14 


16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


105 


1  MR.  NIELDS:   Go  ahead. 

2  EXAMINATION  BY  COUNSEL  FOR 

3  THE  SENATE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

4  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

5  Q    Let  me  just  ask  you  --  I  would  like  to  have 

6  marked  as  the  next  exhibit  a  letter  dated  November  26, 

7  1985,  from  Director  Casey  to  you.   It's  a  memorandum  with 

8  an  attachment. 

g  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  12  was 

^0  marked  for  identification.) 

t1  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

•J2  Q    Would  you  look  at  Poindexter  No.  12? 

13  A    Yes. 

Q    You  testified  earlier  that  the  President  signed 


a  finding  in  December;  is  that  the  finding  he  signed? 


15     a  finding 


A    To  the  best  of  my  recollection,  it  is. 

Q    Do  you  recall  when  he  signed  it? 

A    I  don't  recall  the  precise  date. 

Q    What  do  you  recall  about  this  event? 

A    Based  on  my  notes,  apparently  I  discussed  that 
with  the  President  on  the  —  is  it  the  5th  or  6th?  I  think 
it's  the  5th. 

Q^    Right. 

A         Which   I   think   is  on  a  Monday,    I  belie\fe, 


Mifr'Kiii^ieitA" 


MR.    SMALL: --Qtf -the -recora^-a^flflnd. 


1102 


ilttfti^lfflr 


106 


1  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

2  THE  WITNESS:   May  we  step  outside  for  a  second? 

3  MR.  LIMAN:   Sure. 

4  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

5  THE  WITNESS:   To  continue  my  answer,  on  about 

6  the  5th  of  December,  I  believe  that  I  discussed  the  first 

7  version  of  the  finding  with  the  President.   Director  Casey's 

8  memo  is  dated  the  26th  of  November.   That  would  have  been 

9  just  before  Thanksgiving.   I  don't  recall  exactly  what  day 

10  I  got  that,  but  because  I  didn't  discuss  it  with  the 

11  President  until  the  5th,  chances  are  --  of  course,  I  guess 

12  the  reason  I  didn't  was  that  the  President  was  in  California 

13  for  Thanksgiving.   Mr.  McFarlane  was  with  him  out  there. 

14  It  was  the  period  Bud  decided  to  resign  on  about  the  30th. 

15  So  when  the  President  got  back,  we  were  in  a 

16  great  state  of  flux.   So  I  probably  didn't  get  around  to 

17  discussing  it  with  the  President  until  about  the. 5th  of 

18  December. 

19  I  don't  know  when  it  actually  arrived  in  my 

20  office.   There  may  be  some  record  of  that. 

21  MR.  NIELDS:   Was  the  President  in  California 

22  at  that  time? 

23  -    THE  WITNESS:   On  the  5th?   Beginning  of  that 

24  period?  Yes.   He  --  I  forget  when  he  went  out  there. 
oc  He  went  out  for  Thanksgiving.   So  he  was  --  he  had  just 


1103 


107 


1  returned  from  Geneva  from  the  meeting  with  Gorbachev. 

2  As  I  recall,  Mr.  McFarlane  had  gone  directly  out 

3  there.   He  had  remained  behind  in  Europe  in  order  to  conduct 
^  some  briefings  of  heads  of  state  after  the  Geneva  summit. 

5  I  believe  he  went  directly  from  Europe  to  California.   At 

6  least,  that  is  my  recollection. 

7  Anyway,  apparently  I  discussed  that  with  the 

8  President  on  about  the  5th  of  December.   The  President  — 

9  and  I  probably  —  I  can't  —  I  frankly  recall  this  brief 

10  cover  note.   I  probably  did  not  discuss  that  with  the 

11  President.   It's  really  nonsubstantive. 

12  When  I  would  meet  with  the  President  on  issues 

13  like  this,  I  would  give  him  a  copy  of  the  paper  and  I 

14  would  also  give  --  or  I  would  give  him  the  original  and 

15  give  a  copy  to,  if  the  Vice  President  were  there,  Don  Regan 

16  were  there,  I  would  give  them  a  copy  of  it.   We  would 

17  discuss  the  issue. 

18  The  President  agreed  with  this  and  he  signed 

19  it.   I  frankly  was  not  happy  with  it  because  it  was  a 

20  very  narrow  finding.   It  did  not,  in  my  view,  completely 

21  lay  out  all  of  our  objectives.   It  was  before  we  had 

22  had  —  we  had  the  meeting  on  7  December  over  in  the 

23  residerce. 

f 

24  Again,  I  was  just  getting  fully  involve^  in 


the  origins  of  the  Israeli  proposal.   I  hadn't  had  much 


1104 


luitt/^iflaT 


108 


1  of  an  opportunity  to  directly  discuss  the  issue  with  the 

2  Secretary  of  State  or  the  Secretary  of  Defense;  but  the 

3  CIA  was  anxious  to  get  this  signed,  as  indicated  by 

^  Director  Casey's  note  to  me,  and  so  I  wanted  to  find  out 

5  if  the  President  was  in  general  agreement  with  it.   He 

6  was.   In  fact,  he  signed  it. 

7  But  because  I  didn't  think  the  finding  was 

8  adequate,  and  also  I  hadn't  had  an  opportunity  to  talk  to 

9  the  Attorney  General  about  it,  and  it  was  our  policy  on 

10  any  covert  action  finding  the  Attorney  General  was  to 

11  clear  off  on  it,  so  this  finding  was  signed. 

12  Now,  the  reason  that  the  Tower  Commission  Report 

13  didn't  have  the  complete  record  is  that  the  --  the  signed 

14  version  of  the  document  does  not  exist,  because  I  destroyed 

15  it. 

16  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

17  Q    When  did  you  destroy  it? 

18  A    I  destroyed  it,  to  the  best  of  my  recollection, 

19  the  early  evening  of  November  21st,  1986. 

20  Q    Why? 

21  A    When  —  going  back  to  the  meeting  with  Ed 

22  Meese  and  Bill  Casey  on  Thursday  the  20th,  when  it  became 

23  clear  that  there  was  a  disagreement  over  the  recollection 

24  of  the  events  of  November,  '85,  Ed  Meese  asked  to_/meet 
oc  with  the  President  on  the  followina  day,  on  Friday  the 

^*i iiiiAi  lAoirirh 


1105 


'IKWLil^lfl^ 


109 


1  21st.   Ed  called  sometime  in  the  morning  of  the  21st  and 

2  indicated  that  he  wanted  to  come  over  and  see  the  President. 

3  He  may  have  given  some  indication  of  that  on  Thursday 

4  when  we  were  meeting,  talking  about  the  briefings  to  the 

5  congressional  committees  the  following  day. 

6  But  anyway,  he  said  that  he  wanted  to  come  over 

7  to  see  the  President  at  11:30  and  he  would  like  for  Don 

8  and  I  to  attend  the  meeting  --  Don  Regan  --  to  attend  the 

9  meeting  with  him.   We  did.   He  told  the  President,  to  the 

10  best  of  my  recollection,  that  there  was  a  disagreement 

11  about  the  facts,  especially  of  the  early  phases  of  the 

12  Iranian  project,  and  he  wanted  the  President's  permission 

13  to  look  into  the  facts  and  the  President  said  fine. 

14  Early  afternoon  on  the  21st,  the  Attorney  General 

15  called  me  and  said,  "In  following  up  on  our  discussion  with 

16  the  President  this  morning,"  he  said,  "I  would  like  to  be 

17  able  to  send  over  a  couple  of  my  people  to  look  at  the  files 
•)8  and  records  that  you  have  and  could  you  have  somebody  pull 

19  them  together  and  I'll  have  my  people  get  in  touch  with 

20  Commander  Thompson,"  who  was  my  military  assistant,  also 

21  the  General  Counsel  for  the  NSC,  and  the  primary  liaison 

22  with  the  Attorney  General's  front  office. 

23  -    So  immediately  after  the  telephone  call  from 

24  the  Attorney  General,  I  called  Commander  Thompson,' on  the 
9e  intercom  and  told  hHA#MMt  ^'Uki^ttrdPfii'^^"^'^^^  '  ^  request 


mrwf^^dCfrff 


1106 


INOUSSffi^r 


110 


1  and  I  asked  him  to  take  responsibility  for  pulling  the 

2  material  together. 

3  After  I  finished  talking  to  him,  I  called  Colonel 

4  North,  told  him  the  same  thing.   I  wanted  him  to  clearly 

5  understand  the  directions  that  I  had  provided  to  Commander 

6  Thompson  about  pulling  the  material  together.   He  said 

7  that  he  would  do  that. 

8  Then  later  in  the  afternoon  —  well,  the  events 

9  of  that  day  are  important  to  you,  and  earlier  in  the  day  — 

10  and  I  don't  recall  what  time  it  was,  but  that  was  the  day 

11  that  Colonel  North  came  in  and  —  with  his  old  notebook. 

12  He  kept  notes  in  these  half  steno  pads.   He  came  in  with 

13  a  notebook  that  covered  the  tim^^rame  back  in  November,  '85, 

14  and  went  through  the  notes  of  what  he  had  told  me  in 

■J5  November  of  '85  that  indicated  that  we  clearly  knew  that 

^g  Hawk  missiles  were  aboard  that  aircraft.   His  notes  did 

^7  not  shed  any  light  on  whether  the  President  had  approved  it 

^Q  ahead  of  time  or  after  the  fact. 

^g  In  that  conversation  with  Colonel  North,  I  don't 

2Q  recall  exactly  what  he  said,  but  I  had  the  distinct 

2^  impression  that  he  was  going  to  destroy  that  spiral  note- 

22  book  when  he  left  the  office.   I  didn't  tell  him  to 

23  destroy  it,  but  I  also  didn't  tell  him  not  to  destroy  it. 

24  It  was  completely  consistent  with  my  view  that  wosking 


25 


notes  and  PROF ' s  notes  and  that  sort  of  thing  were  not 

iiAiMki  iiiAirirfi 


1107 


"illULii^lS^ 


111 


1  something  that  we  had  to  retain. 

2  At  this  point,  we  frankly  viewed  the  issues  as  a 

3  political  issue,  or  I  did  anyway.   The  big  —  the  uncertainty 

4  in  my  mind  was  exactly  what  happened  in  November  of  '85. 

5  That's  what  we  were  trying  to  figure  out.   When  later  in 

6  the  afternoon  --  it  was  probably  early  evening.  Commander 

7  Thompson  came  into  my  office.   Because  we  had  handled  the 

8  17  January  finding  outside  of  our  normal  channels,  it  would 

9  normally  have  been  handled  through  our  Intelligence  Office 

e  I 

10  headed  up  by  Mr.  DeGraffenrsed;   but  even  though  I  set  that 

11  system  up  or  was  largely  responsible  for  it,  I  deliberately 

12  in  this  case  had  decided  not  to  use  our  formal  syste.Ti.   I 

13  wanted  to  generally  have  the  responsible  cabinet  officers 
•<4  involved.   Again,  I  wanted  to  limit  knowledge  of  the  exact 
«  details  as  much  as  possible  so  they  only  knew  what  they 

Ig    needed  to  know  to  carry  out  their  part  of  it. 

So  we  —  I  clearly  accept  responsibility  for 
deviating  in  our  standard  procedures.   But  anyway,  I  had 
given  at  some  point  earlier  in  the  year  the  17  January 
finding  to  Commander  Thompson  to  hold  in  one  of  the  safes 
in  our  outer  office.   So  he  was  in  the  process  of  going 
through  what  we  had  in  the  immediate  office  for  Ed  Meese's 
people_to  look  at.   When  he  called,  I  frankly  thought  there 
were  very  few  records  because  of  my  penchant  and  all  of 


the  cautions  that  I  hai  provided  earner  about  not  putting 


1108 


UNSU^If^ 


1  anything  in  writing.   I  doubt  if  there  was  much.   I  certainly 

2  didn't  believe,  as  I  said,  at  that  point  that  PROF's  notes 

3  existed. 

4  Anyway,  when  Commander  Thompson  came  in  with 

5  this  envelope,  the  17  January  finding  was  in  it  as  well 

6  as  an  earlier  version.   There  were  in  total,  starting  with 

7  this  version,  there  were  three  versions  the  President  signed. 

8  There  was  this  one  — 

9  Q    The  January  6th? 

10  A    One  in  early  January  and  the  one  on  the  17th  of 

11  January. 

12  Now,  I  always  viewed  that  as  one  finding.   In 

13  other  words,  we  went  through  several  iterations.   The  final 

14  product  was  17  January.   It  was  the  only  version  of  the 

15  finding  that  I  felt  was  operative  and  when  Commander 

16  Thompson  started  going  through  the  stuff  that  was  in  the 

17  envelope,  there  was  the  17  January  finding,  my  cover  memo 

18  to  the  President  with  the  17  January  finding.   There  was 

19  the  earlier  draft  in  which  there  had  been,  from  the  5th 

20  of  January,  in  which  a  couple  words  had  changed  to  the 

21  17  January  finding.   And  there  was  this  original  finding. 
There  were  two  or  three  copies  of  PROF's  notes  kind  of  like 
this  that  addressed  -- 

Q    Kind  of  --  you  are  pointing  to  the  exhibits 
we  have  been  over? 


iiNniAi^i^iFiFn 


1109 


VNtL/^tHfilr 


113 


1  A    That's  right.   They  were  printed  versions  of 

2  PROF'S  notes  from  Colonel  North  to  me  that  covered  various 

3  aspects  of  the  Iranian  plan  in  1986.   And  Commander  Thompson 

4  said  something  to  the  effect  that  --  well,  I  don't  want  to 

5  put  words  in  his  mouth. 
Q    The  substance  of  what  you  recall? 

7  A    The  substance  of  it  was  that  the  first  version  of 

8  the  finding  is  going  to  be  embarrassing. 

9  Q    So  what  did  you  do? 

10  A    I  said,  "Let  me  take  a  look  at  it."   I  did.   It 

11  put  the  thing  in  perspective.   We  were  being  put  about  the 

12  head  and  shoulders  in  the  press  that  this  was  an  arms-for- 

13  hostages  deal. 

14  The  first  version  of  the  finding  was  prepared 

15  unilaterally  by  the  CIA,  by  people  that  really  didn't 

16  understand  what  our  overall  objectives  were.   They  had 

17  written  it  in  a  very  narrow  way,  frankly  to/colloquially  -- 

18  can  we  go  off  the  record? 

19  Well,  they  wanted  some  protection. 
MR.  NIELDS:   Use  initials. 
THE  WITNESS:   CYA. 
MR.  NIELDS:   There  you  go; 
THE  WITNESS:   Over  the  involvement  of  their 

proprietary  in  19  --  November  of  '85.  / 

But  anywav.  sittina  there  on  mj^esk,  Commander 


1110 


iWKU^tSllr 


114 


1  Thompson  is  m  front  of  the  desk,  my  thinking  is  that  if 

2  this  gets  out  and  if  anything  left  my  office,  I  didn't  have 

3  any  assurance  that  it  wouldn't  get  out. 

4  I  decided  that  it  would  be  politically  embar- 

5  rassing  to  the  President  at  this  point  because  it  would 

6  substantiate  what  was  being  alleged,  that  this  was  strictly 

7  an  arms-for-hostages  deal,  which  truly  it  was  not  intended 

8  to  be;  and  so  I  decided  to  destroy  it.   So  I  tore  it  up 

9  and  put  it  into  my  waste  container  behind  my  desk. 

10  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

11  Q     In  front  of  Commander  Thompson? 

12  A    To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  he  was  there. 

13  Yes.   And  the  —  the  two  or  three  PROF's  notes 

14  that  were  in  the  package,  I  also  destroyed  at  that  time. 

•(5         Q    Admiral,  did  you  understand  that  North  was  going 
1g     to  get  rid  of  his  spiral  notebook  for  the  same  reason, 
because  it  would  be  politically  embarrassing  to  the 
President? 

A    Well,  I  guess  that  —  I  frankly  -- 
Q    Why  did  you?   I  don't  want  to  put  words  in 
your  mouth.   Why  did  you  think  North  was  going  to  get  rid 
of  it? 

A.    To  understand  our  frame  of  mind  at  the  time, 
as  I  said,  the  administration  had  been  very  conc'e^ned  about 
leaks.   An  awful  lot.of  sensitive inffiaBition  had  leaked 


iii^fffmii^irn 


nil 


HNftil^tiBr 


115 


1  out  over  the  years. 

2  Generally,  most  leaks  in  my  opinion  occur 

3  because  of  --  and  I  don't  want  to  —  I  think  all  branches 
^  of  Government  are  involved  in  leaks,  the  Executive  Branch 

5  as  much  as  any.   Generally,  leaks  occur  because  people 

6  disagree  with  policy  and  they  leak  information  out  to 

7  preclude  some  particular  policy  option.   So  my  general  view 

8  was  not  to  keep  paper  around.   I  thought  that  working  notes, 

9  PROF'S  notes  were  working  documents  that  we  didn't  have  to 

10  keep.   In  my  view,  the  less  we  kept  around,  the  better. 

11  At  that  point,  it  was  still  being  viewed  in  my 

12  view  anyway,  as  a  political  issue  over  the  Iranian  arms 

13  missions. 

14  Q    Did  you  communicate  that  point  of  view  to 

15  North? 

16  A    I  certainly  did  over  the  months.   I  don't  recall 

17  specifically  telling  him  that  in  November  of  1986,  but  that 

18  would  be  his  clear  view. 

19  Q    Did  you  tell  him  at  the  time  he  left  your  office 

20  with  his  spiral  notebook  words  and  substance  to  the  effect 

21  that  that  book  is  going  to  be  embarrassing? 

22  A    I  did  not  say  that  to  him.-   In  fact,  I  didn't  — 

23  acquiesced  to  his  destruction  —  of  what  I  thought  was  to 
be  the  destruction  of  the  notebook  by  simply  not'  gaymg 


24 

25     anything. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


1112 


lifliM^ 


116 


1  Q    What  was  in,  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge, 

2  recollection,  those  PROF'S  notes  that  you  ripped  up  or 

3  destroyed  at  the  same  time  that  you  destroyed  the  i(|((isigned 
^  finding? 

5  A    I  can't  be  certain,  but  I  would  be  almost  sure 

6  that  they  were  copies  of  some  of  the  stuff  that  is  printed 

7  in  the  Tower  commission  Report.   I  don't  recall  that  it 

8  had  any  additional  information. 

9  Q    Did  they  refer  to  what  has  been  called  the 

10  diversion? 

11  A    No.   To  my  knowledge,  until  Sunday,  Sunday  night, 

12  the  23rd,  I  didn't  think  there  was  anything  in  writing 

13  any  place  on  the  transfer  of  funds  to  the  contras. 

14  Q    Had  you  not  remembered  --  remembered  that 

15  memorandum? 

16  A    I  did  not  remember  that  memo. 

17  Q    Had  you  ever  seen  any  memorandum  that  referred 

18  to  this? 

19  A    Nothing,   with  hindsight  now  going  back  through 

20  the  Tower  Commission  Report,  there  were  oblique  references. 

21  I  didn't  remember  those. 

22  Q    The  oblique  references  in  the  PROF  notes  that 

23  we  have  $6  million  available? 

24  A    Right.  .' 

".'i..;"iiaftinb!iiittnir"  °" 


1113 


UNU/^W 


117 


'  I  can  get  you  lunch  up  here. 

2  (Discussion  off  the  record.) 

^  (Whereupon,  at  12:45  p.m.,  the  deposition 

*    recessed,  to  reconvene  at  2:00  p.m.,  this  same  day. 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
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21 
22 
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25 


mp\  imm 


1114 


7 
8 

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118 


1  AFTERNOON  SESSION 

2  (1:50  p.m. ) 
2              MR.  LIMAN:   Let's  go  back  on  the  record. 

.    Whereupon, 

4 

JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER 

was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having  been  previously  duly 
6 

sworn,  was  examined  further  and  testified  as  followsi 
EXAMINATION  BY  COUNSEL  FOR 
THE  SENATE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Do  you  recall  the  meeting  with  the  President 
and  others  on  December  7,  1986? 
A    Yes,  I  do. 
Q    You  were  present: 
A    Yes. 
Q    Why  don't  you  just  tell  us  what  you  recall? 

MR.  SMALL:   Excuse  me,  Arthur,  did  you  say  '86? 
MR.  LIMAN:   '85. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  was  referring  to  '85. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    December  7,  1985. 

A    Again,  to  put  this  in  perspective,  this  was  just 
a  few  days  after  the  President  had  named  me  to  succeed 
Mr.  McFarlane.   As  I  recall.  Colonel  North  was  in   London 
at  the  time  or  he  was  about  to  leave  to^go  to  London  to 


B  was  about  to  leave  to^g 


1115 


WUWflp' 


119 


1  meet  with  Ghorbanifar  and  some  Israelis  who  were  involved 

2  in  the  meeting.   I  can't  remember  exactly  who  they  were. 

3  But  we  were  concerned  from  the  beginning  with  the  Israeli 

4  channel  because  we  hadn't  had  any  direct  contact  with  it. 

5  I  can't  recall  at  the  time  whether  we  knew  the 

6  man's  name  was  Ghorbanifar  or  not;  but  the  President 

7  generally  at  least  as  reported  to  me  by  Mr.  McFarlane 

8  earlier  was  in  favor  of  pursuing  the  Israeli  idea,  at  least 

9  as  far  as  trying  to  get  a  channel  functioning  into  the 

10  Iranian  government  so  that  we  would  have  an  influence  on 

11  the  --  what  we  saw  as  the  upcoming  succession  there,  as 

12  Khomeini  passed  away  or  --  through  some  other  event,  the 

13  government  changed. 

14  We  were  most  anxious  to  keep  the  --  Iran  out  of 

15  Soviet  hands.   Our  general  assessment  of  the  situation  in 
1g     that  part  of  the  world  was  that  the  Soviets  were  trying 

desperately  to  get  through  to  the  Indian  Ocean,  a  warm- 
water  port.   It  has  been  historically  an  objective  of 
the  Soviet  Union.   So  Iran  was  a  vulnerability  to  us  in 
that  regard. 

I  don't  want  to  minimize  the  President's  concerns 
about  the  hostages.   He  was  very  concerned  about  the 
hostages,  was  from  the  beginning.   We  worked  hard  and 
diligently  to  figure  out  how  to  get  the  hostages  Ipack  one 
way  or  the  other. 


MRIMim 


1116 


iHittJ^lfiBT 


120 


1  So  the  President  saw  this  as  a  way  of  getting 

2  the  hostages  back,  as  a  possible  way.   So  he  generally  felt 

3  that  we  ought  to  at  least  pursue  the  Iranian  suggestions. 

4  But  in  order  to  make  a  decision  on  whether  to  do 

5  that  or  not,  we  felt  that  it  was  important  that  Mr. 

6  McFarlane  meet  with  the  Iranian  contact  and  come  back  with 

7  a  personal  assessment  as  to  what  he  thought. 

8  So  there  had  been  meetings  with  cabinet  officials 
g    and  the  President  prior  to  that  time;  but,  as  I  told  you, 

10  I  wasn't  involved  in  most  of  those. 

11  The  August  meeting,  the  first  time  to  my  know- 

12  ledge  that  the  President  —  or  Mr.  McFarlane  talked  to 

13  the  President,  when  the  President  was  out  of  the  hospital 

14  either  just  before  or  after  an  operation.   The  Chief  of 

15  Staff,  Don  Regan  had  gone  out  to  the  hospital.   I  hadn't 
1g    participated  in  that. 

17  Since  I  was  taking  over  as  National  Security 

1g    Adviser,  I  think  I  am  the  one  that  encouraged  we  have  a 
19    meeting  over  in  the  residence  on  7  December.   It  was  a 
2Q     Saturday.   In  fact,  I  approached  that  meeting  thinking 
21     that  I  was  probably  going  to  lead  the  discussion,  because 
Mr.  McFarlane 's  general  view  at  that  point,  even  though 
he  technically  was  the  National  Security  Adviser,  he  was 
sort  of  phasing  out  and  I  was  handling  all  the  ijeetings 
with  the  President  at  9:30.   But  at  the  last  minute,  I 


iimni  h^mffi 


1117 


VNttiHSff}^ 


121 


1  learned  Mr.  McFarlane  planned  to  go.   So  he  did  go  to  the 

2  meeting,  too.   In  fact,  he  led  the  discussion. 

3  Ahead  of  time,  I  talked  to  Secretary  Shultz, 

4  Secretary  Weinberger,  and  Director  Casey  about  the  general 

5  nature  of  the  meeting,  what  the  general  subject  was. 

6  Secretary  Shultz  and  Secretary  Weinberger  said  they  would 

7  be  there.   Director  Casey  said  he  was  going  to  be  out  of 

8  town.   He  was  aware  of  the  proposals  and  he  supported  them. 

9  In  fact,  to  my  recollection,  he  said  I  had  his  proxy  in 

10  terms  of  telling  the  President  that.   He  asked  if  John 

11  McMahon,  the  Deputy  Director  of  Central  Intelligence,  could 

12  attend  in  his  stead.   I  said  that  would  be  fine. 

13  I  can't  recall  whether  I  talked  to  the  Vice 

14  President  or  not.   Probably  did,  but  I  just  can't  remember 

15  that.   The  Vice  President  was  not  there.   Apparently  he 

16  was  out  of  town.   Certainly  if  he  had  been  in  town,  he 

17  would  have  been  invited  and  probably  there. 

18  So  we  convened  on  Saturday  morning,  the  7th  of 

19  December,  over  in  the  living  room  of  the  residence;  and 

20  it  was  the  President,  Secretary  of  State,  Secretary  of 

21  Defense,  the  Chief  of  Staff,  John  McMahon,  the  Deputy 

22  Director  of  Central  Intelligence,  Mr.  McFarlane,  and  me. 

23  Normally,  I  would  keep  notes  at  such  a  meeting, 

24  but  again  this  was  such  a  sensitive  area  that  I  ^^.d  not 
9e  by  my  z'ecollectiofl^^BnM  JK|f  ipifeffinceivably  could 


iii9nri&fr<!iFirn 


1118 


21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


JWfil/^ffir 


122 


1  have  written  a  few  things  on  a  yellow  legal  pad,  but 

2  subsequently  destroyed  them  at  the  time,  not  recently. 

3  Because  I  couldn't  find  --  I  can't  find  --  there  may  be 

4  conceivably  a  paper  somewhere  in  the  White  House,  but  I 

5  rather  doubt  it.   Because,  again,  we  considered  --  I  tend 

6  to  make  a  distinction  between  formal  NSC  meetings  or 

7  NSPG  meetings,  at  which  we  would  invariably  prepare  a 

8  memorandum  for  record  of  the  meeting,  including  the  notes 

9  of  whoever  the  notetaker  was. 

10  I  don't  like  taking  detailed  notes  like  that. 

11  Usually,  even  when  I  was  deputy,  I  arranged  for  somebody 

12  else  to  be  there  as  the  actual  notetaker. 

13  You  should  find,  although  it  is  probably  not 

14  in  this  area,  but  there  should  be  in  the  NSC  or  White 

15  House  files  some  handwritten  notes  from  NSPG  meetings  that 
15  I  made. 

17  But  I  don't  think  you  will  find  anything  on 

18  this  subject,  because  I  purposely  didn't  take  notes  on  it. 
•jg  Mr.  McFarlane  started  the  discussion  and  reviewed 
20  in  "~  at  least  as  best  I  can  recall,  in  general  terms  his 


contacts  with  the  Israelis.   I  frankly  can't  recall  much 
discussion,  if  any,  of  the  earlier  TOW  shipments  or  Hawk 
shipments  which  is  kind  of  interesting.   I  really  can't 
recall  that.   It  is  conceivable  that  it  wouldn ' t' come  up, 
because  the  meeting  was.  priiaaEJ.lviaf9CW*ed  on  the  future; 


-^ '"  °"  iMftVKtitfru' 


1119 


UlWfi 


ET 


123 


what  were  we  going  to  do  at  this  point. 

Mr.  McFarlane  went  through  all  the  strategic 
reasons  why  Iran  Was  important  to  us.   He  went  through 
reasons  that  he  thought  the  Israelis  were  interested  in 
doing  this;  and  all  the  Israeli  reasons  are  not  necessarily 
the  same  as  ours. 


1120 


UNMSSKO 


/^y-  /Q.L 


JJJJ 


xm^  ^^^'^ 


1121 


1 

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25 


iimmm 


ET 


127 


Usually  on  a  controversial  issue,  where  there 
wasn't  pretty  good  agreement,  he  wouldn't  take  a  decision 
in  the  meeting.   So  the  meeting  broke  up. 

Later  in  the  day  --  and  I  am  not  certain  about 
this  --  the  President  could  have  called  me,  but  I  rather 
think  he  called  Mr.  McFarlane.   My  schedule  would  shed  some 
light'  on  this.   I  think  I  had  a  lunch  down  in  the  Situation 
Room  after  the  meeting  with  Secretary  Shultz .   I  think 
Mr.  McFarlane  was  still  up  in  his  eld  office.   My 
recollection  is  after  my  meeting  with  Secretary  Shultz, 
I  went  and  asked  Mr.  McFarlane  if  the  President  had  called. 
.My  recollection  is  that  he  said  that  he  had  and  that  he 
had  agreed  that  --  as  I  knew  he  would  --  that  .Mr.  McFarlane 
go  to  London. 

Q     I  am  going  to  just  skip  ahead  to  the  milestones. 
Did  Mr.  McFarlane  report  to  you  when  he  returned? 

A    From  — 

Q    London? 

A    Yes.   Well,  actually  he  flew  out  to  London 
on  a  Saturday.   I  think  he  came  back  on  a  Sunday,^  late. 
I  got  a  debrief,  I  think,  first  from  Colonel  North,  or 


iiMDi  Aooinrn 


1122 


UMM  toourirn 
WHR'SBlniM' 


128 


1  maybe  Mr.  McFarlane,  one  or  the  other,  because  Mr.  McFarlane 

2  still  had  his  PROF's  terminal  in  his  quarters.   He  may  have 

3  replied  directly  to  me;  but  anyway,  I  believe  I  gave  the 

4  President  a  brief  debrief  the  following  Monday  morning. 

5  Q    Do  you  remember  what  McFarlane 's  point  of  view 

6  was? 

7  A    Yes.   But  then  Mr.  McFarlane  came  in  to  my  9:30 

8  meeting  on  Tuesday,  the  10th,  I  believe. 

9  Q    Why  don't  you  tell  us  the  substance  of  what 

10  Mr.  McFarlane  reported  to  the  President  and  to  you. 

11  A    The  substance  was  that  he  was  very  uneasy  with 

12  the  Iranian  interlocutor,  Ghorbanifar,  and  was  pretty 

13  pessimistic,  I  guess  is  the  fair  way  to  describe  it, 

14  based  on  my  recollection,  that  we  should  proceed  ahead 

15  with  it.   At  least  unless  we  could  get  a  better  channel 

16  into  the  Iranian  government.   I  think  that's  the  substance 

17  of  his  recommendation. 

18  Q    At  that  point  was  there  any  plan  to  continue 

19  operating  through  the  Ghorbanifar  channel? 

20  A    The  President  really  wasn't  ready  to  give  up 

21  at  that  point. 

22  Q    Did  you  get  a  report  from  North  that  if  you 

23  abandoned  this,  the  hostages  might  be  killed? 

24  A    That's  conceivable.   That  was  often  Colonel 
oe  North's  view,  that^ th^hpstageA  yaff^l^ risk . 


mMx^^fm 


1123 


'UtKl/Milf 


129 


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25 


Q    Were  you  concerned  that  having  started  on  the 
process,  that  you  were  now  becoming  hostage  to  the  process 
Itself? 

A    Well,  a  little  bit.   I  think  you  can  tell  that 
from  my  notes  where  I  say  we  are  already  pregnant  for  500. 
That  was  part  of  it. 

But  the  President  clearly,  his  primary  concern, 
was  the  hostages.   I  don't  mean  to  imply  that  he  wasn't 
considering  the  strategic  importance  of  an  opening  to  Iran, 
because  that  was  indeed  considered.   But  he  was  very 
concerned  about  getting  the  hostages  back.   He  did  not 
view  this,  as  he  had  said  --  and  he  made  this  speech  many 
times  in  my  presence,  that  he  did  not  consider  this  an 
arms-f or-hostage  deal  because  the  arms  weren't  going  to 
the  people  that  held  the  hostages. 

Q    He  would  say  that  --  drew  the  distinction 
between  giving  the  arms  to  the  hostage-holders  and  giving 
them  to  Iran? 

A    That's  exactly  right.  That's  a  fine  line. 
But  he  was  drawing  it. 

Q    He  also  at  that  meeting  drew  a  line,  didn't  he, 
between  selling  arms  directly  to  Iran  and  letting  Israel 
sell  them? 

A    Yes,  he  did.   He  did  make  a  —  later  v^e  had  to 
fall  off  of  that.   I  can  tell  you  why. 

IIMPI  ACCinrn 


1124 


1KKLA^1& 


130 


'         Q    We  will  come  to  that.   But  on  the  same  subject 

2  of  the  hostages,  is  it  fair  to  say  that  concern  about  the 

^  hostages  led  to  the  DEA  project  earlier  in  the  year  in 

^  1985? 

5  A    Oh,  absolutely. 

6  Q    That  was  approved  by  the  President? 

7  A    Yes. 

8  Q    And  approved  by  the  Attorney  General? 

9  A    Yes. 

^0         Q     In  connection  with  that  project  — 

"         A    Now,  you  need  --  I  need  to  be  a  little  careful 

12  there.   I  am  not  sure  that  the  Attorney  General  had  general 

13  knowledge  of  that  project  and  had  authorized  the  DEA  people 

14  to  work  with  us. 

15  Q    Was  there  any  consideration  given  in  connection 

16  with  that  project  to  getting  a  finding? 

17  A    No.   Well,  now  wait  a  minute.   There  may  be  -- 

18  we  may  —  I  forget  exactly  the  rationale  on  that.   There 

19  may  very  well  be  a  general  enough  finding  to  cover  that 

20  particular  -- 

21  Q    Was  there  a  rationale  or  was  it  that  it  just 

22  wasn't  thought  of?   You  can  think  of  something  and  decide 

23  you  don't  need  it,  or  you  can  just  not  think  of  it.   What 

24  was  it  in  that  case?  » 


tlUMiSMtff 


25  A  I   did   nfl^t^^^  i'WMl^iWWf ^"'^^'^9   °"   ^^^ 


1125 


'WMii^m' 


131 


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25 


DEA  business.   It  was  part  of  our  general  effort. 

Since  the  first  hostage  --  after  the  first 
hostage  was  taken,  we  really  had  a  very  concerted  effort 
to  locate  the  hostages 


Our  problem  was  lack  of  intelligence,  a  timely  and  accurate 
intelligence  . 

Q    There  was  even  a  discussion  about  the  possibility 
of  ransoming  them,  wasn't  there? 

A    Yes,  using  -- 

Q     Private  money? 

A    Well,  ransoming.   I  wouldn't  describe  it  that 
way . 

Q    Well,  if  you  bribe 

lyou  can  call  it  a  bribe. 

A     Right. 

Q    Or  you  can  say  —  you  can  call  it  ransom  too? 

A    Right. 

Q    This  tended  to  be  considered  a  bribe  rather 

than  ransom? 

A    That's  exactly  right. 

Q    You  felt  better  when  you  called  it  that? 
A    That's  right^ 
MR.  BECi 

...5  i*  cxi.nni  p,,,., 


1126 


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UNElASSIffg^ 


132 


MR.  LIMAN:   I  think  the  Admiral  and  I  understood 
each  other  on  that.   It  is  not  a  particularly  central 
issue . 

THE  WITNESS:   But  we  did  not  talk  in  terms  of 
ransom.   We  talked  in  terms  of  bri    __ 

lor  bribing^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bin  order    let  us 
get  them  out. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     The  — 

MR.  BECKLER:   Off  the  record. 

THE  WITNESS:   To  follow  up  on  one  more  point 
here,  m  the  business  of  national  security  and  foreign 
policy,  we  often  have  to  draw  very  fine  lines.   You  know, 
the  Daniloff  case  is  another  example. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    This  wasn't,  of  course,  the  only  thing  that  was 
happening  in  December  of  1985? 
A     No. 

Q    Not  to  suggest  the  only  other  thing  was  the 
contras,  I  would  like  for  you  to  look  at  your  notes  on 
page  16.   You  have  already  discussed  the  reference  t 
^^^^^^^^^^1  Th i s  is  the  briefing  with  the  President  at 


9:30  in  the  mornin 


IIMnuCQIFIFn 


1127 


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VNfilMFifflr 


133 


Also,  would  you  read  the  references  there  to 
your  meeting  in| 
A 


These  notes  are  just  to  debrief  the  President 
on  those  two  points. 

Q    Did  you  offer  either  of  those  countries  any 
assistance? 


assistance  to  them  was  not  contingent  upon  their  helping. 
I  did  not  make  that  point.   In  each  year  in  our  foreign 
assistance  program,  we  do  have  money  to  support  tt)e 
surrounding  countries. 


iiNRfA^<;inrn 


1128 


WHiS^fflit' 


134 


1  Q    Admiral,  there  came  a  time  when  you  were  visited 

2  by  Mr.  Nir? 

3  A    Right.  • 

4  Q    Do  you  remember  when  that  was? 

5  A    Yes . 

6  Q    When  was  that? 

7  A    It  was  January  2nd,  at  least  according  to  my 

8  notes.   That  was  1986. 

9  Q    Did  you  take  notes  while  you  were  meeting  with 

10  him? 

11  A    No.   I  think  that's  impolite  when  meeting  with 

12  foreign  officials  to  take  extensive  notes.   Those  notes 

13  will  represent  my  recollections  of  the  meeting  shortly 

14  thereafter,  probably  on  the  aircraft  on  the  way  to 

15  California. 

16  Q    Using  the  notes  if  you  have  to  to  refresh  your 

17  recollection,  just  give  us  the  substance  of  what  transpired 

18  at  the  meeting  with  Nir.   You  don't  have  to  go  into  every 

19  little  detail. 

20  A    All  right.   He  started  off  by  --  I  don't  think 

21  this  was  my  first  meeting  with  Nir.   I  had  met  with  him 

22  some  months  or  years  earlier  when  he  was  in  the  --  it  was 

23  apparently  just  after  Peres  had  appointed  him  his  special 

24  adviser  on  counterterrorism;  and  I  had  agreed  to'  ijieet 

25  with  --  my  i^€collaa1u.ca^As^a^luciajam{^ied  a  session  of  the 


iiwi»rifi»^imir 


1129 


1 

2 
3 
4 
5 

6 

7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


umsst^i^ 


135 


Terrorist  Incident  Working  Group,  which  was  our  interagency 
group  for  combatting  terrorism. 

Nir  had  been  invited  to  attend  ]ust  so  everybody 
could  meet  him.   So  I  had  met  with  him  briefly  then  ]ust 
on  the  general  subject  of  terrorism. 

This  would  have  been  probably  the  second  time 
that  I  ever  saw  the  man.   He  indicated  to  me  that  Prime 
Minister  Peres  had  sent  him,  that  there  were  few  people 
in  the  Israeli  government  that  was  aware  he  was  coming 
to  the  United  States  to  make  this  proposal. 

He  indicated  that  Rabin  and  the  Defense  Minister 
and  both  Peres  and  Rabin's  military  aides  were  aware.   He 
was  clearly  trying  to  make  a  point  to  me  that  they  were  -- 
the  Israelis  were  handling  this  in  a  very  compartmentalized 
way . 

He  indicated  that  the  reason  --  one  of  the 
reasons  that  the  Israelis  had  gotten  involved  in  this 
channel  to  Iran  wasi 


So  obviously  this  was  the  first  time  that  that 
had  come  to  my  attention.   It  helped  explain  a  little  bit 
in  my  mind  probably  why  the  Israelis  were  so  interested  in 


iiMOi  Aooirim 


1130 


VttSU^iBr 


136 


1  What  he  didn't  say,  but  what  I  knew,  is  that 

2  their  general  —  in  fact,  he  may  have  said  this.   He  said 

3  that  their  point  of  view,  the  Iran-Iraq  war  as  a  stalemate 
^  was  not  all  that  bad.   It  kept  the  Iraqis  engaged  and  kept 

5  them  away  from  more  antagonistic  moves  against  Israel. 

6  He  also  said  that  they  certainly  agree  with  us 

7  that  we  had  to  keep  the  Soviet  Union  out  of  Iran. 

8  We  talked  about  the  hostage  problem.   At  that 

9  point,  not  only  did  we  have  the  American  hostages,  there 

10  were  a  few  French  and  British,  as  I  recall,  and  there  were 

11  some  Israeli  hostages,  some  Israeli  soldiers  that  had  been 

12  taken  in  Lebanon.   They  were  interested  in  getting  them 

13  back  as  well. 

14  We  talked  a  lot  about  the  strategic  importance 

15  of  Iran  and  we  agreed  that  we  did  have  some  coincidence 

16  of  interest  here.   He  indicated  that  Prime  Minister  Peres 

17  wanted  to  help  the  United  States  and  they  were  willing  to 

18  take  some  risks  in  providing  that  help. 

19  We  went  through  a  proposed  plan  which  would  be 

20  unilateral,  the  U.S.  not  directly  involved  other  than 

21  replacing  the  arms  afterwards. 

22  Q    Did  he  say  this  would  be  deniable  by  the  United 

23  States? 

24  A    We  discussed  how  to  handle  the  issue  o*f^  a  public 

25  exposure  of  it.   Qne.Q^ion  that  we  discussed  was  that  the 


One  QPiion  that  we  discui 


1131 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


ilNftmifflr 


137 


U.S.  3ust  simply  deny  it  and  for  awhile,  that  was  a  working 
hypothesis,  but  frankly  -- 

Q    Wasn't  very  plausible? 

A    Wasn't  very  plausible. 

Q     All  right. 

A    So  I  never  really  took  that  part  of  the  plan 
seriously.   There  was  concern  on  the  part  of  some  members 
within  the  administration  that  --  I  guess  the  Vice  President 
would  probably  fall  in  this  category  --  that  one  of  his 
concerns,  although  he  was  supportive  of  the,  of  what  the 
President  wanted  to  do  and  he  thought  we  ought  to  go  ahead 
with 


Now,  the  one  --  so  far  in  the  meeting  with  Nir 
there  wasn't  anything  particularly  new  that  hadn't  been 
covered  earlier  by  the  Israelis.   But  the  Israelis  had 
gotten  word,  I  think  at  this  point,  of  --  well,  they  had 
been  in  the  London  meetings  with  Mr.  McFarlane;  and  they 
knew  that  meeting  had  not  gone  very  well.   They  knew  I 
had  just  taken  over.   They  obviously  wanted  to  push  ahead 
with  It,  I  am  sure  for  their  own  selfish  reasons;  but  I 
think  there  was  also  a  genuine  desire  on  the  part  of  Peres 
to  help  the  President.   He  knew  the  President  was  concerned 
about  hostages  a: 


1132 


(INCUSSIFe 


^"^  '"i^  *.»-^  _  -^ 


^*^ 


iillAS^iFiEii 


1133 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


Q  Did  he   ask  you   about   the   replacement  of   the 

500-odt}   TOWS    that    the    Israelis   previously    shipped? 
A  Yes,    he  did. 

Q  What   w 


iim^fmirjrH 


1134 


UNIUSfilPIST 


140 


A    At  that  point,  and  again  this  is  an  indication 
of  my  lack  of  knowledge  of  what  happened  in  the  early 
months,  I  did  not  realize  at  that  point  that  there  was 
any  U.S.  agreement  to  replace  those  508  TOWs .   When  Nir 
raised  it  in  that  meeting,  as  I  recall,  it  was  the  first 
indication  that  I  had  that  they  expected  those  508  TOWs 
to  be  replaced. 

Q    Did  he  say  he  expected  them  to  be  replaced  for 
nothing? 

A    No.   No.   No.   They  wanted  to  buy  them. 

Q    Was  there  an  issue  of  what  the  price  would  be? 

A    I  believe  there  was.   I'm  not  sure  that  came  up 
in  the  meeting.   I  have  really  --  you  know,  I  have  not 
gotten  involved  in  that  level  of  detail  in  terms  of  what 
these  things  cost. 

Q    Did  it  later  come  up?   Why  don't  you  just  take 
us  through  what  the  dispute  was,  if  any,  with  Israel  on 
what  they  should  pay  for  the  TOWs? 

19  A    As  near  as  I  can  tell,  when  it  came  time  to  -- 

20  well,  after  the  January  meeting,  when  it  came  clear  that 

21  they  expected  to  buy  replacement  TOWs  from  us,  the  question 

22  was,  what  kind  of  TOWs  do  they  want  to  buy  and  what  was 

23  the  cost  going  to  be.   And  as  I  —  I  vaguely  recall  that 

24  one  of  the  concerns  was  that  they  had  sold  the  Iranians 

25  an  older  version  nll#il-ft'tvr»rina4VkB«'MyL  "h —  the  Israelis 


iiMPwijimi" 


1135 


18 


20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


MMffiBr 


141 


1  through  their  purchasing  agent  in  New  York  had  tried  to 

2  check  on  the  availability  of  the  older  version  because  the 

3  Israelis  apparently  didn't  have  enough  money  to  pay  for 

4  the  newer  version  out  of  what  they  had  gotten  from  the 

5  Iranians  or  what  the  Israeli  government  had  gotten,  they 

6  started  checking  on  the  old  TOWs . 

7  Immediately  the  question  arose  as  to  why  were 

8  they  asking  for  old  TOWs  instead  of  the  newer,  improved 
g  version.   So  their  purchasing  agent,  being  a  very  quick- 

10  witted  guy,  immediately  stopped  asking  questions. 

11  Then  I  vaguely  remember  other  conversations 

12  with  Colonel  North  at  the  time  in  trying  to  figure  out  how 

13  the  Israelis  would  have  enough  money  to  buy  the  508  TOWs 

14  with  the  money  that  they  said  was  available. 

15  We  also,  I  think,  somewhere  along  the  line  in 
1g  about  that  time  frame  learned  that  the  Israeli  businessmen 
17  that  had  been  involved  were  making  considerable  profit, 


and  Nir  seemed  to  be  unaware  of  it  and  said  that  Peres  was 


ig    unaware  of  it.   We  never  did  pursue  that  very  much. 


Q    Admiral  -- 

A    But  then  I  know  that  there  were  several 
discussions  between  Colonel  North  and  the  logistics 
people  out  at  CIA  and  the  people  at  Defense  with  what  to 
sell  the  replacements  to  Israel  for;  and  there  was  an 
issue  of  whetherllMAI^^^^AIPinV^'^  version  or 


iiMfriM00r 


1136 


wimm 


142 


1  the  newer  version. 

2  At  one  point,  Colonel  North,  I  recall,  made  the 

3  argument  to  me  in  one  of  his  debrief ings  that  the  U.S. 

4  Army  had  TOWs  whose  shelf  life  was  running  out  and  he 

5  didn't  really  understand  why  Defense  couldn't  sell  those  at 

6  a  lower  price,  because  otherwise,  in  a  few  months  or  years, 

7  the  TOWs  would  be  useless  and  they  wouldn't  get  any  money 

8  for  them. 

9  But  now  what  I  am  reporting  to  you  is  what 

10  Colonel  North  reported  to  me  in  terms  of  the  actual 

11  decision  with  CIA  and  the  Defense  Department;  I  didn't 

12  get  directly  involved  in  that. 

13  Q    Admiral,  was  there  a  plan  ultimately  for  the 

14  Israelis  to  pay  for  the  TOWs  in  part  out  of  the  proceeds 

15  of  the  new  missile  sales  to  Iran?  Was  that  presented  to 

16  you? 

17  A    I  don't  recall  that. 

'fg         Q    Let  me  just  move  on.   We  will  have  more 

19  opportunity  to  take  testimony  and  to  talk  before  your 

20  public  testimony  takes  place.   I  would  like  to  hit  some 

21  highlights. 

22  You  talked  about  the  finding  that  was  signed 

23  by  the. President  in  early  January,  1986. 

24  Would  you  make  this  as  the  next  exhibit? 


25 


DNCLAS<;iFIFn 


1137 


ttlOU^lSS^ 


143 


1  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  13  was 

2  marked  for  identification.) 

3  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

4  Q     I  will  show  you  a  copy  of  a  finding  dated 

5  January  6,  1986,  bearing  what  appears  to  be  the  signature 

6  of  the  President.   I  should  tell  you  there  is  a  handwritten 

7  note  "and  third  parties"  that  was  inserted  by  Stanley 

8  Sporkin  when  this  was  rewritten  on  January  17. 

9  A     I  remember  it  well.   That  was  added. 

10         Q    Was  this  the  finding  signed  by  the  President 

H  in  early  January? 

12  A    Yes. 

13  Q    You  read  the  Tower  Board  said  he  signed  it  by 
■J4  mistake? 

15         A    I  can't  necessarily  disagree  with  that.   I  can't 

■jg  remember  the  exact  conversation  with  the  President. 

17  As  I  think  I  have  said  earlier  today,  the 

•]8  President  did  have  a  tendency  if  you  put  a  piece  of  paper 

19  in  front  of  him,  if  he  agreed  with  it,  he  signed  it. 

2Q  Whether  when  I  presented  this  to  him  in  early  January 

21  of  '86,  whether  it  was  for  final  signing  or  just  to  discuss 

22  with  him  the  direction  that  we  were  going,  it  would  be 

23  hard  for  me  to  say  at  this  point. 

5.  Q    Do  you  remember  that  subsequent  to  January  6th, 


,tjiirfrjicf(*ii?iifH^ 


January  7th,  you  ^i^^flAttf^ej^  Sl^Stiiiimii^^^   group? 


1138 


iKKlJt^lPIg^ 


144 


1  A     That's  right. 

2  Q    At  that  time  that  they  were  meeting  —  this  time 

3  It  was  Meese  and  Secretary  Shultz  and  Secretary  Weinberger 

4  and  yourself. 

5  A    And  the  Vice  President. 

6  Q    And  the  Vice  President. 

7  A    And  Don  Regan. 

8  Q    And  Don  Regan. 

9  Do  you  remember  whether  you  were  aware  that 

10  the  President  had  already  signed  the  finding? 

11  A    I  am  sure  we  were. 

12  Q    Who  is  we?   You  and  the  President? 

13  A    Let  me  see. 

14  Q    Who  was  aware  the  President  had  already  signed 

15  it? 

16  A    I  think  that  no  doubt  --  well,  on  the  6th  of 

17  January,  you  would  have  to  check  the  diary  to  see  who  was 

18  present  at  the  9:30.   I  would  have  covered  this  with  the 

19  President  at  the  9:30  meeting  on  the  6th.   I  don't 

20  remember  who  was  there,  but  I  would  guess  Don  Regan  and 

21  the  Vice  President  were  also  there. 

22  But  on  the  --  the  reason  for  having  the  meeting 

23  on  the  7th  was  that  the  President  clearly  recalled  the 

24  last  meeting  at  which  Secretary  Shultz  and  Secretary 

25  Weinberger  were  tKere  and,  in  fact,  had  made  very  strong 


Kere  and,  in  fact,  had  m< 

uM^iiccinrn 


1139 


145 


1  cases  as  to  why  we  should  not  proceed.   I  don't  recall  at 

2  this  point  whether  it  was  my  suggestion  to  the  President 

3  or  whether  he  decided  that  we  ought  to  have  one  more 

4  informal  NSPG  meeting. 

5  What  I  started  to  say  earlier  and  never  quite 

6  got  it  out,  I  don't  think,  we  made  a  distinction.   These 

7  meetings  were  really  characterized  as  a  meeting  of  National 

8  Security  Advisers  to  the  President  in  a  broad  sense  rather 

9  than  calling  them  an  NSC  or  NSPG  meetings. 

10  Anyway,  I  am  certain  on  the  6th  when  the 

11  President  signed  what  I  consider  to  be  a  preliminary 

12  version  of  the  finding,  that  also  on  that  day  we  agreed 

13  to  have  a  meeting  the  following  day  to  discuss  that; 

14  and  so  I 'm  convinced  that  I  would  have  known  on  the  7th 

15  that  the  President  signed  this  on  the  6th,  and  the  President 

16  remembered,  and  probably  Don  Regan  and  the  Vice  President 

17  if  they  had  been  at  the  9:30  the  previous  day. 

18  But  the  meeting  on  the  7th  was  set  up  as  one  final 

19  Review  of  the  situation.   It  also  --  it  was  at  that  point 

20  I  was  concerned  that  we  had  not  had  the  Attorney  General 

21  formally  into  it.   I  had  talked  informally  with  the 

22  Attorney  General.   Either  Stanley  Sporkin  or  Ollie  North 

23  had  ta-lked  to  the  Attorney  General.   So  I  knew  the  Attorney 

24  General's  position,  I  thought.   And  indeed,  I  did. 


1140 


HHHA^ISIt 


146 


1  Shultz  and  Secretary  Weinberger  had  raised  the  legality 

2  question;  and  if  the  President  said  what  you  implied  he 

3  did,  I  am  sure  that's  why  he  commented  that  way.   But  -- 

4  and  after  that  7  December  meeting,  I  had  told  Colonel 

5  North  to  work  with  Mr.  Sporkin  on  a  new  finding  and  also 

6  get  the  Attorney  General  into  the  act  so  we  could  settle 

7  this  question  as  to  whether  there  was  a  legal  problem  or 

8  not  a  legal  problem. 

9  At  some  point  between  the  7th  of  December  and 

10  the  7th  of  January,  it  was  reported  to  me  by  Colonel  North 

11  that  indeed  the  Attorney  General  did  not  have  a  problem 

12  with  it,  that  earlier  in  the  administration  -- 

13  Q    The  French  Smith  opinion? 

14  A     Yes. 

15  Q    All  right.   We  can  always  come  back  to  that  at 

16  some  other  point. 

17  A    All  right. 

18  So  one  of  the  reasons  for  having  the  meeting 

19  on  the  7th  of  January  was  to  give  the  Attorney  General 

20  an  opportunity  to  tell  the  President  that  directly. 

21  Q    Did  he  tell  him  that? 

22  A    I  believe  he  did  tell  him  that. 

23  Q    And  in  substance,  what  he  said  was  if  you  act 

24  pursuant  to  a  finding  —  , 

25  A    Under  th*« M*ti<Viai  ie5ii£ity_Act  — 


1141 


147 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


Q  --    that    that    supersedes    the   Arms    Export   Control 

Act? 

A    Control  Act,  that's  correct. 

Q    That  was  based  on  the  same  reasoning  as  French 
Smith  used  in  his  earlier  opinion? 

A    Actually,  to  be  accurate,  it  was  what  Smith 
was  doing  was  that  he  was  agreeing  with  an  analysis  that 
had  been  done  by  the  legal  adviser  to  the  State  Department, 
Davis  Robinson. 

Q     Now  --  go  ahead. 

A    I  was  going  to  say,  between  the  6th  of  January 
and  the  17th  of  January,  we  continued  to  work  the  finding. 

Q    On  the  meeting  that  you  had  on  the  7th,  what  was 
the  line-up  in  terms  of  who  was  in  favor  and  who  was 
against? 

A    I  think  everybody  in  the  meeting  on  the  7th  of 
January  was  in  favor  of  doing  it  except  the  Secretary  of 
State  and  the  Secretary  of  Defense.   That  is  my  best 
recollection. 

Q    That  must  have  been  a  rare  moment  for  you  to 
have  both  of  them  in  agreement? 


C, 


<Ja 


Q*        It  was  my   statement.  ^ 

MR.    BECKLER:      I   thought  he   said  everybo,dy  was 
in   favor   of    it  AlftlCllhd  fl«<AatMM^  Defense   and   State. 


0 


ifwniucwnrft 


1142 


WMl/^tPIBr 


148 


1  THE  WITNESS:   They  were  in  agreement  together. 

2  MR.  BECKLER:   Oh,  I  see.   I  see. 

3  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

*         Q    Let's  go  on  to  the  reworking  of  the  finding, 

5  because  it  wasn't  just  a  reworking  of  the  finding,  it  was 

6  a  reworking  of  the  transaction,  wasn't  it,  the  structure 

7  of  it? 

8  A    Yes. 

9  Q    On  the  6th,  and  I  am  trying  to  move  it  along 

10  so  we  can  get  out  of  here  today  and  have,  as  I  said, 

11  another  opportunity.   But  on  --  at  the  time  that  you  were 

12  talking  to  the  group  on  the  7th,  you  were  still  talking 

13  about  a  sale  by  the  Israelis  with  the  United  States 

14  replenishing  their  stocks? 

15  A    That's  correct. 

16  Q    What  happened  between  the  --  that  meeting  on 

17  the  7th  and  the  January  16th  finding? 

18  A    Seventeenth  finding. 

19  Q    January  17th  finding.   I  am  sorry. 

20  A    Let  me  clarify  one  point  that  I  agreed  with 

21  you  on,  though.   At  least  that  was  my  understanding  of 

22  what  we  were  talking  about.   We  were  talking  about  --  I  am 

23  not  at  all  sure  it  was  the  Attorney  General's  understanding 

24  at  that  point. 

25  Q  At   leas 


liMr»rAWf» 


1143 


ittittil^ffiffr 


149 


''         A    As  I  understood  it  at  the  time,  we  were  still 

2  talking  about  Israel  providing  —  selling  the  arms  to  Iran 

3  and  the  U.S.  allowing  the  Israelis  to  purchase  replacement 

4  arms  from  the  United  States. 

5  Q    That  had  been  the  Nir  proposal? 

6  A    That  had  been  the  Nir  proposal. 

7  Q    What  happened  in  the  restructuring?   How  did 

8  it  come  about? 

9  A    I  don't  recall  everything  that  happened  between 

10  the  7th  of  January  and  the  16th,  but  we  were  still  working 

11  on  the  finding  and  making  sure  that  —  and  the  meeting 

12  on  the  7th,  I  don't  recall.   I  probably  did  not  say  in 

13  the  meeting  that  the  President  had  signed  the  finding, 

14  a  _finding  the  day  before. 

15  Q    Was  there  a  reason  you  didn't  say  it? 

16  A    I  frankly  —  again,  and  that's  why  I  think 

17  that,  you  know,  it's  probably  accurate  to  say  the  President 

18  inadvertently  signed  this  the  day  before,  because  I  hadn't 

19  really  had  a  chance  to  sit  down  and  show  the  finding  to 

20  the  cabinet  officers  involved. 

21  Q    So  you  wanted  to  give  them  an  opportunity  to  be 

22  heard,  not  tell  them  that  you  are  just  here  to  talk  about 

23  something  which  has  happened? 

24  A    That's  right.   That's  right. 

25  Q    The  President  could  have  changed  his  mind? 


TtttLriiccincn 


1144 


15 


VNOU^tiBr 


150 


1  A    Could  have,  but  I  didn't  think  he  was  going  to. 

2  Q    In  any  event,  no  action  had  been  taken  on  the 

3  finding  at  that  point? 

4  A    That's  correct. 

5  Q    Let's  go  on  to  why  things  got  changed. 

g         A    On  the  16th  of  January,  I  invited  the  Secretary  of 
7    State,  the  Secretary  of  Defense,  the  DCI ,  and  the  Attorney 
g    General   to  a  meeting  in  my  office  to  discuss  the  finding, 
g    and  it  was  --  the  timing  of  it  was  somewhat  impromptu. 
•)Q    They  had  all  been,  I  think  except  maybe  one  of  them,  in 
•d     the  White  House  for  another  function.   I  asked  them  to 
•)2    drop  by  my  office  afterwards.   They  did. 

•j3  I  must  say  that  I  am  not  certain  about  Secretary 

•j^     Shultz,  but  before  Director  Casey  was  hospitalized  -- 
before  I  left  the  White  House,  he  and  I  both  recalled 
.g     vaguely  that  Secretary  Shultz  was  there  at  the  beginning 
..y     of  the  meeting. 

Secretary  Shultz  had  another  engagement.  This 
was  in  the  late  afternoon  or  early  evening;  but  anyway. 
Secretary  Shultz  knew  at  the  time  at  least  what  we  were 
going  to  discuss  and  when  he  found  out  what  it  was,  he 
said,  "Look,  you  know  my  position  on  this.  I've  got  to 
go  to  _this  other  meeting,"  or  function.  So  he  was  only 
there  a  few  minutes. 

Later  h^  iiAl  A^itf^  Jji#^^&^s  unaware  there 


iiNnrii^«n 


1145 


mmm 


151 


^  was  a  finding,  but  I  always  viewed  that  he  knew  there  was 

2  a  finding.   I  don't  believe  he  ever  saw  it,  but  he  knew 

3  that  there  was  a  finding,  and  frankly  he  had  an  opportunity 
^  to  participate  in  the  drafting  of  it.   But  Secretary 

5  Weinberger  and  Director  Casey  and  the  Attorney  General  and 

6  I  sat  down.   Stanley  Sporkin  was  also  there.   I  can't 

7  remember  whether  Colonel  North  was  there;  he  probably 

8  came  in  at  some  time.   I  know  --  I  don't  know  if  he  was 

9  there  at  the  beginning. 

10  Thompson  was  coming  in  and  out  of  the  room 

11  during  our  discussions.   I  think  we  asked  him  a  question 

12  about  the  Arms  Export  Control  Act  and  he  went  to  get 

13  references. 

14  At  that  meeting  on  the  16th  was  the  first  I 

15  learned  that  what  the  Attorney  General  thought  we  ought 

16  to  do  was  go  direct  from  the  U.S.  to  Israel  rather  than  -- 

17  Q    U.S.  to  Iran? 

18  A    Excuse  me.   U.S.  to  Iran,  rather  than  Israel 

19  to  Iran,  and  then  the  U.S.  to  Israel.   As  I  recall,  his 

20  rationale  was  that  if  —  he  reiterated  again  that  he  was 

21  in  agreement  with  the  William  French  Smith  determination 

22  earlier,  but  that  if  we  were  going  to  do  this  under  the 

23  National  Security  Act,  then  the  CIA  would  be  purchasing 

24  the  material  from  the  Defense  Department  under  the  Economy 
Act  and  under  thci|i<tAl^tiqnFA t^rit^^'^  ^^   "°  reporting 


25 


tiMnrmtsiHPn 


1146 


mmm 


152 


1  requirements  required  to  the  Congress,  whereas  if  the 

2  Israelis  had  taken  weapons  from  their  stock  and  sold  them 

3  to  Iran,  those  weapons  that  they  were  selling  them  would 

4  have  been  transferred  to  Israel  under  the  Arms  Export 

5  Control  Act  and,  therefore,  technically  there  would  be  a 

6  reporting  requirement  for  the  third-country  transfer  of 

7  those  arms.   And  the  way  tc  make  it  clean  --  and,  of  course, 

8  I  wasn't  so  much  worried  about  those  details,  but  I  saw 

9  this  was  a  way  that  we  could  have  more  direct  control  of 

10  the  operation,  because,  frankly,  we  were  uneasy  with  what 

11  Schwimmer  and  Nimrod'  had  been  doing,  and  I  just  felt  that 

12  we  had  more  control  over  the  whole  thing  and  make  sure  we 

13  didn't  go  through  another  screw-up  as  in  November. 

14  A  lot  of  this  recollection  now  I  have  thought 

15  about  the  issue  for  a  long  time,  over  the  past  few  weeks, 

16  months.   And  so  I  readily  agreed  to  it.   Secretary 

17  Weinberger  and  Director  Casey  agreed  to  it,  and  the  change 

18  here  is  really  not  related  to  that  issue. 

19  I  think  the  way  —  it  turned  out  that  the 

20  Attorney  General  had  seen  this  finding,  the  one  that  was 

21  signed  on  the  6th  January  earlier.  I  don't  think  at  the 

22  time  I  realized  that;  but  as  I  understand  it,  the  way 

23  this  was  originally  written  on  the  6th,  it  would  have 

24  allowed  us  to  go  direct.  / 
Q    But  was  a  decision  made  that  you  would  go  direct 


25 


1147 


24 
25 


IliSl-J^BijjiSr 


153 


1  or  through  an  agent? 

2  A    Well  --  oh,  direct  or  through  an  agent? 

3  Q    Yes.   As  opposed  to  Israel. 

4  A    There  was  a  discussion  in  the  16  January  meeting 

5  as  to  how  Director  Casey  would  implement  this  finding 

6  once  it  was  finally  cleared  off  on. 

7  Q    What  was  — 

8  A    It  was  my  understanding  at  the  time  that  he 

9  was  going  to  use  a  private  agent. 

10  Q    Was  it  your  understanding  he  was  going  to  use 

11  Secord? 

12  A    No.   I  do  not  recall  on  the  16th  that  Secord 's 

13  name  specifically  came  up. 

14  Q    Let  me  see  if  there  are  things  that  may  refresh 

15  you. 

16  First,  did  you  meet  General  Secord  in  January 
■J7  prior  to  the  January  17  finding  to  discuss  Iran? 

18         A    I'm  not  certain.   I  may  have.   I  really  don't 

■jg  know.   I  met  with  General  Secord  I  guess  my  whole  time 

20  in  the  White  House  maybe  three  or  four  times. 

21  Q    What  do  you  recall  talking  to  him  about? 

22  A    One,  it  seems  to  me  it  was  either  just  before 

23  or  just  after  the  trip  to  Tehran. 


Q    Okay.   When  else  do  you  recall  meeting ^with  him? 
A    I  am  ju||«tj:i|djagta  remember. 


niffr(r«e>rinFh 


1148 


UHft/I^SSr 


154 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


Q    Did  you  ever  meet  with  him  to  talk  about  the 
contras? 

A     It's  conceivable  that  I  did.   it  wouldn't  have 
been  to  any  level  of  detail.   It  would  have  been  to  thank 
him  for  his  efforts  rather  than  going  into  any  details. 

It  seems  to  me  he  came  in  on  a  Saturday  morning 
at  some  point,  but  I  can't  recall  whether  that  was  related 
to  Central  America  or  to  the  Iranian  project. 

Q    Do  you  remember  when  it  was? 

A     I'm  sorry.   I  just  can't. 

Q     I  apologize.   I  do  not  have  your  schedule  here. 
I  could  have  brought  it.   I  wanted  to  move  more  into 
other  things. 

A    I  met  with  him  a  few  times.   It  was  mainly  what 
I  would  categorize  as  hand  holding.   In  other  words,  in 
my  view.  General  Secord  was  making  a  significant  sacrifice 

Q    What  was  that  based  on? 

A    That  was  based  on  the  fact  --  well,  for  instance, 
I  can  recall  a  discussic 


I  "You  know, 

Dick  is  losing  a  lot  of  money  in  that  he's  not  having  time 
to  attend  to  his  other  business, 


1149 


IIMil^ffiB^ 


155 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 

19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 

25 


Colonel  North  was  always  telling  me  that  he 
thought  Dick  was  losing  money. 

Q    There  c«une  a  point  -- 

A    So  -- 

Q    I  am  sorry. 

A    I  was  going  to  add,  so  one  of  the  ob]ectives 
in  meeting  with  Dick  the  few  times  I  did  was  to  thank  him 
and  indicate  to  him  that  we  appreciated  his  efforts. 

Q    Did  there  come  a  point  when  you  learned  that 
the  Secord  company  was  going  to  be  used  as  a  vehicle  in 
the  Iranian  arms  transaction? 

A    Yes.   At  some  point  that  became  obvious  to  me; 
but  frankly,  I  left  it  up  to  --  you  know,  I'm  not  trying 
to  back  off  from  anything  here,  but  I  really  always  did 
view  the  implementation  of  the  finding  as  Bill  Casey's 
responsibility,  and  I  wanted  it  to  be  --  I  wanted  the 
project  run  the  way  he  wanted  to  run  it.   If  we  wanted  to 
continue  to  use  Ollie  North  on  my  staff  as  a  significant 
player,  that  was  fine;  and  Bill  chose  to  run  it  that  way. 
I  agreed  with  him. 

Q    Did  you  -- 

A    I  left  the  decision  about  who  should  be  the 
agent  up  to  Bill.  , 


Did  t 


niHMSlM 


•alized  that 


1150 


«t«£LilKlflift' 


156 


1  there  was  a  differential  between  the  price  at  which  the 

2  CIA  was  paying  for  these  missiles  and  the  price  that  the 

3  Iranians  were  paying? 

4  A    Yes.   As  I  said  earlier,  when  Colonel  North 

5  came  into  me  initially,  which  I  think  was  in  February,  it 

6  was  clear  from  that  discussion  at  least  in  general  terms 

7  that  the  way  they  would  --  the  way  Colonel  North  had  proposed 

8  that  it  be  done, that  these  funds  could  become  available, 

9  would  be  by  overcharging  the  Iranians  for  the  arms. 

10  Q    Did  you  know  what  the  amount  of  the  profit  was? 

11  A    -I  didn't  know  that.   I  may  have  known  in  general 

12  magnitude,  but  -- 

13  Q    Did  you  know,  for  example,  that  the  Iranians  were 

14  paying  around  510,000  a  TOW? 

15  A    I  remember  hearing  that  figure. 

15         Q     I  could  show  you  PROF  notes  that  show  it. 

17         A    Yes. 

13         Q    Were  you  told  that  the  Defense  Department  was 

19  getting  about  $3500  a  TOW? 

20  A    Yes,  I  knew  about  that. 

21  Q    So  if  I  subtracted  one  from  the  other,  I  come 

22  up  with^6500  and  multiply  it  times  1000,  it's  S6.5  million; 

23  right?   Is  my  arithmetic  right? 

24  A    Yes. 

25  Q    Who  did  j^q]^  ,tJ^Vk_was^oing_to^  be  getting  that 


1151 


25 


tmtGASStRffiT 


_^  157 

1  profit? 

2  A    That  profit  would  go  into  one  of  the  accounts 

3  that  General  Secord  had  that  he  would  then  use  to  purchase 

4  arms  to  support  the  democratic  resistance. 

5  Q    Who  told  you  that? 

6  A    Colonel  North. 

7  Q    So  that  you  believed  that  whatever  the  profit 

8  was  on  all  of  these  transactions  would  go  to  the  contras? 

9  A    Well,  yes.   There  were  --  there  would  be  admini- 

10  strative  costs  in  terms  of  chartering  aircraft. 

11  Q  But   that's   expenses. 

12  A  Yes. 

13  Q    But  the  profit  itself  — 

14  A    I  was  --  in  fact,  thekssue  never  came  up.   I 

15  certainly  never  assumed  that  anybody  would  make  a  personal 
15    profit  out  of  the  — 

■J7         Q    When  you  say  you  never  assumed,  did  someone 
'^3     tell  you  that  Secord  isn't  going  to  make  a  profit  out  of 

it? 

A    I  don't  recall  a  conversation  in  which  that  was 
2'j     specifically  said,  but  the  reason  that  I  said  what  I  did 
22     earlier  was  that  my  frame  of  mind,  I  mean  the  atmosphere 

at  the  time,  was  that  Dick  was  losing  money,  not  making 


23 

24     money . 


Q    Who  told  vou  he  was  losing  money? 


»iMm 


1152 


HtKL/^M' 


158 


1  A    Colonel  North. 

2  Q    So  what  you  had  was  that  you  had  some  information 

3  about  what  the  prices  were  that  indicated  that  there  should 

4  be  a  substantial  profit,  or  a  high  profit? 

5  A    Yes.   Several  million  dollars  was  the  way  I 

6  thought  about  it. 

7  Q    Well,  how  did  you  get  from  a  differential  of 

8  nSOO  a  TOW  to  —  a  differential  between  S3500  a  TOW  cost 

9  and  $10,000  selling  price  to  just  several  million  dollars? 

10  A    Because  there  were  --  you  are  going  back  to 

11  Nir's  proposal.   We  were  talking  in  terms  of  several 

12  thousand  TOWs . 

13  Q    If  there  were  several  thousand  TOWs,  then  for 

14  each  TOW,  you  have  a  $6500  gross  profit? 

15  A    Right. 

1g  Q    And  for  1000  TOWs,  you  have  $6.5  million  gross 

17  profit? 

18  A    Right. 

19  Q    I  don't  know  what  figure  you  were  using  in 

20  your  mind  for  expenses,  but  it  couldn't  be  -- 

21  A    No.   I  said  -- 

22  Q    —  that  much. 

23  A    The  point  I  was  trying  to  make,  maybe  I  didn't 

24  make  myself  clear,  it  was  clear  to  me  that  if  all  this 

oe  worked  as  planned,  there  would  be  several  million  dollars 

(IMPUCCIPIcn 


1153 


25 


rUUAl  JLCUUCICII. 

IjplSlftsSfREn' 


159 


ice , 


''  go  to  the  support  of  the  democratic  resistance. 

2         Q    My  question  is,  what  would  happen  to  the 

^  difference? 

^         A    I  didn't  know  there  would  be  a  differenc 

5  Q    You  thought  whatever  profit  there  was  was  going 

6  to  the  contras? 

7  A    That's  right. 

8  Q    The  reason  you  thought  that  was  because  that's 

9  what  North  was  telling  you? 

10  A    Yes.   And  I  don't  have  any  reason  to  doubt 

11  that.      I   hope   that's   the  way   it  happened. 

12  Q    You  would  rather,  even  with  all  the  criticism 

13  that  has  occurred,  you  would  rather  have  the  money  go  to 

14  the  contras  than  into  someone's  pocket? 

15  A    Absolutely. 

16  Q    Why  is  that? 

17  A    Beg  your  pardon? 

18  Q    Why  is  that? 

19  A    Well,  that  was  the  objective.   At  the  time  — 

20  Q    Your  lawyer  might  prefer  it  to  go  the  other 

21  way. 

22  A    Nobody  thought  in  terms  of  illegalities.   We 

23  thought  that  —  I  thought  I  was  carrying  out,  you  know,  the 

24  President's  objective.   As  I  said  earlier,  we  kn'ew  it 
would  be  controvef  iMi^Asufc  Jiifiklifid  Ji[^  one  of  doing  what 


iiUfifi^^iriPi) 


1154 


VJWI 


M\l:\\i\ 


160 


1 
2 
3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


we   thought  was    in  the   best   long-term  interests  of   the 
United   States. 

Q  Admiral',    you   said   before   that   the    --    that   you 

saw  this   as   consistent  with  getting  money   from  private 
donors  or   third  countries? 

A  Correct . 

Q    If  it  were  from  private  donors,  it  would  be 
from  Secord?  Who  was  it  that  was  giving  you  the  money? 

A    From  Iran?   From  the  Iranian  project? 

Q    Yes. 

A    Secord  or  whoever  the  private  agent  was. 

Q    Did  you  think  of  it  in  terms  of  the  fact  that 
the  Ayatollah  was  at  least  indirectly  paying  for  the 
contras? 

A    We  thought  about  it  that  way. 

Q    Who  is  we? 

A    Colonel  North  and  I . 

Q    Did  you  find  that  ironic? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Was  not  that  something  that  you  attempted  to 
share  with  the  President  of  the  United  States? 

A    No. 

Q    You  never  had  any  temptation  to  say  to  the 
President  that  we  got  the  Ayatollah  to  pay  for  the 


contras; 


UNCLASIIIFIFn 


1155 


VNtimttr 


161 


1  A     Mr .  Liman,  that's  not  my  style  to  —  I  really  am 

2  a  very  low-profile  person.   I  don't  feel  that  I  need  a  lot 

3  of  acknowledgement  in  order  to  get  any  sort  of  psychic 

4  income.   I  knew  that  it  -- 

5  Q    I  am  talking  about  psychic  income  for  the 

6  President,  not  for  you. 

7  A     I  know  that.   I  knew  it  would  be  controversial. 

8  I  thought  the  best  way  to  protect  the  President  on  the 

9  issue  and  at  the  same  time  make  possible  his  policy  objec- 

10  tives  was  not  to  tell  him  about  it.   I  really  didn't. 

11  I  only  talked  to  Colonel  North  about  --  he  is 

12  the  only  person  I  have  ever  talked  to  about  it  until 

13  Monday  the  24th  of  November  when  Ed  Meese  came  to  see  me, 

14  and  then  on  the  25th,  in  the  meeting  with  the  President. 

15  Q    You  also  then  later  talked  to  the  FBI  about 

16  It,  too? 

17  A    No.   I  don't  believe  I  did.   My  only  contact 
■\Q           with  the  FBI  was  they  --  as  I  told  you  earlier,  I  had  a 
19     safe  out  at  my  house  and  sometime  --  in  fact,  I  think  it 

was  the  Friday  just  before  I  retained  my  attorneys.   They 
wanted  to  come  out,  two  of  their  agents  came  out  to  the 
House  with  one  of  the  NSC  staff  administrative  people  to 
collect  the  contents  of  my  safe.   The  only  thing»that  was 
in  the  safe  was  a  —  my  portable  computer  terminal,  PROF ' s 
terminal.   I  did  ncmy|||4^^|^()se 


1156 


VNftMtSBr 


162 


1  Q  Admiral    -- 

2  A    But  I  don't  think  I  have  ever  said  anything  to 

3  the  FBI  about  the- transfer  of  funds. 

4  Q    Admiral,  did  you  ever  tell  the  President  of  the 

5  United  States  that  Iran  was  giving  any  money  to  the 
g    contras? 

7         A    I  have  no  recollection  of  that. 

3         Q    Did  you  ever  tell  any  third  person  that  you  had 

g    told  that  to  the  President? 

10  A    No.   I  have  read  the  press  reports.   I  have  not 

11  knowingly  told  anybody  since  I  left  the  White  House  except 

12  my  attorneys  and  my  wife. 

13  Q    You  knowingly  told  them  about  what? 
A    Knowingly  said  that  I  had  talked  to  the 

President.   I  assume  you  are  talking  --  maybe  it's  the 
wrong  assumption.   I  assume  you  are  talking  about  the 
press  reports  that  I  was  going  to  testify  that  -- 

Q    The  press  reports  that  said  that  you  had  talked 
to  the  President  twice. 

A    I  don't  know  where  that  comes  from.   I  have 
not  told  anybody  that,  you  know. 

Q    You  never  told  anybody,  including  your  wife, 
that,  I  take  it? 

A     Told  --  ' 


HffiLlSlFlFIl 


1157 


23 


25 


VttKf^tftffir 


163 


1  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

2  Q    Told  your  wife  that  you  told  the  President  on 

3  two  occasions? 

4  A     No. 

5  Q    As  far  as  you  are  concerned,  that's  a  falsehood? 

6  A    That's  a  falsehood.   I  don't  want  to  think  ill 

7  of  people.   But  it  is  conceivable  I  said  something  that 

8  caused  somebody  to  interpret  something  I  said  that  way. 

9  I  don't  think  I  have  even  said  that. 

10  Q    What  could  you  have  said  that  was  truthful 

11  that  would  have  led  to  that  interpretation? 

12  A    I  have  no  idea. 

13  Q    Did  you  ever  say  that  to  Admiral  -Mer«row? 

14  A     No .   Admiral  MetiJJw  was  -- 

15  Q    He  died  in  December. 

15  A    Yes.   But  he  was  out  of  the  country  --  I  forget 

17  when  he  went  to  Naples.   It  was  before  --  in  fact,  I 

18  J^S*f*t  talked  to  Admiral  Mao^w  since  he  left  the 

19  United  States. 

20  Q    After  you  left  office,  did  you  have  conversations 

21  with  Mr.  McMahon,  the  Staff  Director  of  the  Senate 

22  Intelligence  Committee? 


A    The  last  time  that  I  saw  Mr.  McMahon,  and  I 


24     think  the  only  time 

MR.  BECli:A^6Aiirtf:%^W^v^l^^fice? 


iffiinrsmM' 


1158 


UnlAilfiStfiGBr 


164 


1  THE  WITNESS:   Since  leaving  office  —  was  he 

2  attended  the  meeting  that  I  had  with  Senator  Durenberger 

3  and  Senator  Leahy  on  Friday  the  21st  of  November. 

4  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

5  Q    So  the  answer  is  you  never  told  him  anything 

6  to  that  effect? 

7  A    No. 

8  Q    When  he  was  called  to  testify. 

9  A    Oh ,  that's  right.   That  weekend  in  December. 

10  I  forget. 

11  Q    When  you  were  called  to  testify  then? 

12  A     Right. 

13  MR.  LIMAN:   Mark  as  the  next  exhibit  the 

14  memorandum  that  accompanied  the  finding  for  the  President 

15  and  the  finding  itself.   It's  a  memorandum  dated  January  17, 

16  1986. 

17  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  14  was 

18  marked  for  identification.) 

19  MR.  LIMAN:   Mark  as  the  next  exhibit  the 

20  notes  of  Admiral  Poindexter 's  of  January  17,  1986. 

21  (Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  15  was 

marked  for  identification.) 

MR.  LIMAN:   You  can  also  look  at  Poindexter  15. 
THE  WITNESS:   This  must  be  out  of  the'--  this 
must  be  out  of  the  9:30  file, 


ilNClASSIHED 


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UNCI  m 


MR.  BECKLER:   Referring  to  exhibit  — 
THE  WITNESS:   Fifteen. 

MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Is  that  your  handwriting? 
THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   It  is  my  printing. 
MR.  BECKLER:   Do  you  have  another  copy  of  that? 
MR.  LIMAN:   Yes.   Here  you  go. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     Israel  to  Iran  reporting  problem,  new  plan, 
submit  determination  of  vice  500.   What  does  that  mean? 
A    We  are  talking  about  1000  TOWs  vice  500  TOWs . 
Q    Downside  meant  you  discussed  the  downside  of  it? 
A    Right. 

Q    New  Jinding  meant  you  told  --  right  under  it  -- 
you  told  the  President  that  the  Attorney  General,  Meese, 
and  the  DCI  had  approved? 

A    The  finding,  that's  right.   Shultz  and 
Weinberger  -- 

Q    Still  recommending  against  it? 
A    That's  correct. 

Q    If  you  look  at  the  —  is  it  Exhibit  16,  the 
memorandum  dated  January  17,  1986? 
A    That's  Exhibit  14. 

Q    Exhibit  14.   Who  prepared  that  for  yo6, 
ral,  do  you  recall? 

T  atn  almost  certain  Colonel  North  did.   In  fact 


FIFfl 


1160 


HNStASSlHIBT 


166 


1  yes.   Page  3,  it  indicates  it's  prepared  by  Oliver  L.  North. 

2  Q     If  I  look  at  page  3,  it  says  R.R.  per  J. P. 

3  understands  the  recommendation.   Why  did  you  do  it  that 

4  way? 

5  A    Because  that's  the  way  I  often  did  issues  where 

6  I  discussed  them  verbally  with  the  President.   As  I  recall, 

7  that  day  when  I  met  with  the  President,  with  the  final 

8  version  of  the  operative  finding,  because  it  was  so 

9  sensitive,  I  did  not  make  any  usual  copies  of  it  to  hand 

10  out  to  the  Vice  President  and  the  Chief  of  Staff  but  instead 

11  kept  the  cover  memo  in  my  hands  and  probably  read  the  cover 

12  memo  to  the  President  and  just  gave  him  the  finding  that 

13  was  attached. 

14  In  a  case  where  I  did  that,  maybe  you  will 

15  find  others  in  the  record  where  a  similar  thing  happens  -- 

16  Q    Where  it  says  "1000,  17  January  '86,"  is  that 

17  your  handwriting?   Page  3? 

18  A    Yes.   That's  10  hundred.   In  other  words  -- 

19  Q    That's  the  hour? 

20  A    That ■ s  the  hour . 

21  Q    Would  you  look  at  page  1.   It  says,  "We  have 

22  researched  the  legal  problems  of  Israel  selling  U.S.- 

23  manufactured  arms  to  Iran.   Because  of  the  requirement  in 

24  U.S.  law  for  recipients  of  U.S.  arms  to  notify  the  U.S. 
Government  of  transfers  to  third  countries,  I  do  not 


25 


ransfers  to  third  cpuntr: 

iiiim  Aooicicn 


1161 


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mmsiiHifrT 


16- 


1  recommend  that  you  agree  with  the  specific  details  of  the 

2  Israeli  plan.   However,  there  is  another  possibility. 

3  Someti.Tie  ago.  Attorney  General  William  French  Smith  deter- 

4  mined  that  under  an  appropriate  finding,  you  could  authorize 

5  the  CIA  to  sell  arms  to  countries  outside  of  the  provisions 

6  of  the  laws  and  reporting  requirements  for  foreign  military 

7  sales.   The  objectives  of  the  Israeli  plan  could  be  met 

8  if  the  CIA,  using  an  authorized  agent,  as  necessary, 

9  purchased  arms  from  the  Department  of  Defense  under  the 
10  Economy  Act  and  then  transferred  them  to  Iran  directly 
■)■]  after  receiving  appropriate  payment  from  Iran." 
12         A    That's  correct. 
•^2         Q    What  did  "appropriate  payment"  mean? 


A    It  meant  whatever  —  in  the  context  of  this 
memo,  it  meant  whatever  the  price  was  that  we  would  have 
to  charge  the  Isrelis  for  replacements.   In  other  words, 
the  point  that  was  being  made  there  is  that  if  Israelis  -- 
as  happened  earlier,  if  they  sent  them  older  versions  of 
the  TOW  missile,  that  they  had  better  collect  enough  to 
buy  the  improved  version  because  what  we  would  want  to 
sell  the  Israelis  in  return  was  the  improved  version,  and 
so  the  appropriate  payment  is  exactly  what  it  means. 

(^  I  gathered  what  this  was  talking  about  was  a  sale 

by  the  CIA  of  arms? 

A  Oh,    I    a%^  yiit   i°'^11SVW«ii?®    y°"^    point. 


mn  tmc\tfL 


1162 


BNttH^iP^ 


168 


1  I  understand  the  point  you  are  driving  at  here,  too,  I 

2  guess. 

3  MR.  BECKLER:   Just  answer  the  question.   What 

4  does  "appropriate  payment"  mean,  if  you  know? 

5  THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  know. 

6  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

7  Q    Was  it  contemplated  when  you  sent  this  memorandum 

8  that  the  middleman  would  make  a  profit? 

9  A    That  was  certainly  not  my  understanding. 

10  Q    At  the  time  you  sent  this  memorandum,  was  it 

11  contemplated  that  there  would  be  funds  generated  to  be 

12  used  for  the  contras? 

13  A    That  was  not  my  understanding. 

14  Q    So  at  the  time  you  presented  this  verbally  to 

15  the  President  of  the  United  States,  you  were  not  talking 

16  about  generating  funds  for  the  contras? 

17  A     No. 

13         Q    And  you  were  not  talking  about  generating  a 

19  profit  for  a  middleman? 

20  A    That's  correct. 
Q    When  did  that  come  into  the  picture? 
A    As  I  told  you,  to  the  best  of  my  recollection, 

it  wa*  in  February  when  Colonel  North  came  to  me  and  said 
that  he  had  figured  out  a  way  to  provide  additional 


25     support,  he  thought,  to  the  contr 


missm 


1163 


vNKimffl^ 


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Q    Admiral,  did  it  not  occur  to  you  at  that  time  that 
if  there  was  going  to  be  a  spread  between  what  you  were 
getting  from  the  Iranians  and  what  you  were  paying  to  the 
CIA  or  Defense  Department,  that  that  was  money  that  might 
appropriately  belong  to  the  United  States  of  America? 

A    That  thought  never  crossed  my  mind. 
MR.  BECKLER:   At  what  time? 
THE  WITNESS:   At  that  time. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    When  Colonel  North  reported  this? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    You  talked  earlier  about  the  fact  that  you  had 
obtained  a  legal  opinion  or  the  NSC  has  a  legal  opinion 
that  it  wasn't  covered  by  Boland;  do  you  recall  that? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Who  asked  for  that  opinion? 

A    From  the  10^? 

Q     Yes. 

A    I  don't  recall  specifically.   There  was  quite 
a  bit  of  discussion  at  the  time  with  —  we  actually  — 
there  were  three  lawyers  on  the  staff  at  the  time.  Bob 
Kimmet,  who  was  the  executive  secretary  at  the  time,  and 
Bob  Pearson,  his  deputy,  and  Commander  Thompson,  the 
General  Counsel,  and  there  were  several  discussio^fts  by 
my  recollection  of  th^-auestion  of  whether  the  Boland 


^•^ir^iriri^ 


1164 


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20 
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VNfili^KBr 


170 


1  Amendment  really  covered  the  NSC  staff;  and  as  to  who  asked 

2  the  I0»,  I  don't  know  the  answer  to  that. 

3  Q    Did  you  see  the  opinion  that  was  issued? 

4  A    I  don't  recall  actually  seeing  it,  but  I  recall 

5  being  aware  of  its  contents. 

6  Q    Who  made  you  aware  of  the  contents? 

7  A    I  don't  recall. 
9         Q    Did  you  seek  any  advice,  sir,  from  the  Attorney 
9  General  on  that  subject; 

10  A     I  did  not. 

11  Q    Or  from  the  President's  counsel? 

12  A    I  did  not. 

13  Q    You  have  talked  about  the  fact  that  you  were 

14  you  realized  when  Colonel  North  told  you  that  money  could 
be  funneled  to  the  contras  that  it  could  create  a  ruckus 

.(g  or  some  political  embarrassment;  you  remember  that? 
^■j  A     Right. 

..g         Q    That  was  one  of  the  reasons  that  you  did  not 

.|g  report  this  to  the  President? 


A    That's  correct. 

Q    Did  you  not  have  some  reservations  a^out  whether 
you  ought  to  take  that  kind  of  risk? 

A"    Well,  now  that's  a  hard  thing  to  reconstruct, 
what  happened  over  a  year  ago  and  exactly  all  my  thinking. 


25     ^  -^-^  ^^  --  "=^y-  MfHiyKlStEHpn  "  "'' 


J 


1165 


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25. 


I  don ■ t  know . 

Q    Was  the  situation  with  the  contras  so  desperate 
at  that  point? 

A     It  was  pretty  grim.   It  was. 

Q 


Q    Admiral,  were  there  --  are  there  any  other 
occasions  during  your  tenure  as  either  the  National 
Security  Adviser  or  the  deputy  where  you  made  a  conscious 
decision  to  approve  some  activity  but  not  report  it  to 
the  President  because  it  would  create  potential  embarrass- 
ment for  him? 

A     I  don't  think  there  was  anything  else, of  this 
magnitude.   This  was  clearly  the  biggest  decision,  of 
this  kind. 


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UUII ILU 


The  President's  span  of  control,  of  course,  was 
much  broader  than  mine.   He  had  a  limited  amount  of  time 
to  focus  -- 

Q    This  would  have  taken  five  minutes  to  tell  him, 
sir. 

A    The  point  I  want  to  make,  though,  is  --  and 
I  am  not  trying  to  say  this  was  not  an  insigificant 
decision.   I  was  making  judgment  calls  every  day  as  to  what 


to 


A 


the  President  on  or  not.   This  was  certainly 


an  out-of-the-ordinary  kind  of  decision;  but,  you  know, 
I  was  used  to  quickly  evaluating  the  facts  and  making 
a  decision  as  to  whether  to  beXfcrvo  or  not 

This  one  I  felt  confident  that  it  was  consistent 
with  his  policies  and  I  thought  that  --  and  still  do  feel 
that  --  I  had  the  authority  to  do  it. 

Q    Did  you  tell  Oliver  North  that  you  had  reported 
this  to  the  President? 

A    No,  I  did  not  tell  him  that,  to  my  recollection. 

Q    Did  you  tell  anyone  else  prior  to  the  time 
that  this  broke  in  November,  the  Monday  when  you  were  -- 
discussed  this  with  the  Attorney  General,  did  you  tell 
anyone  else  what  North  had  told  you  about  the  funneling  of 
the  proceeds  to  Iran? 


A    No.   I  told  nobody  else. 

Q    Did  you  discuss  it  with  Casey 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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A     I  did  not  discuss  it  with  Casey. 

Q     Why  was  that? 

A    Fran)«ly,  I  did  not  want  to  discuss  that  or 
directly  discuss  with  him  Colonel  North's  activities  with 
regard  to  supporting  the  contras . 

Q    Why? 

A    Because  I  didn't  want  to  --  Director  Casey  -- 
I'll  be  very  frank  here  --  as  well  as  the  other  cabinet 
officers,  having  to  testify  on  the  Hill,  I  did  not  want 
to  put  him  or  anybody  else  in  a  position  of  being  evasive 
m  terms  of  answering  questions. 

Q    Do  you  remember  any  instance  where  Director 
Casey  told  you  that  Oliver  North  was  indiscren^'  in  front 
of^^^^^Bnd  had  talked  about  where  you  were  getting  the 
money  for  the  contras? 

A    That  rings  a  bell. 

Q     I'll  show  you  a  document. 

A    Yes.   I  forgot  all  about  that.   I'm  trying  to 
remember  -- 

Q    And  you  reported  it  to  Mr.  McFarlane? 

A    Yes.   There  is  a  vague  recollection  of  --  but 
I  can't  remember  what  the  circumstances  were. 

Q    Was  there  really  a  point  of  view  that  ,you  had 
that  you  should  not  share  the  information  about  what  the 
NSC  was  doing  to  keeg  ,yif  ^gn^r^  aoinq  with  the  other 


1168 


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UMeUfffiWHF 


174 


1  cabinet  officers?   That's  correct? 

2  A    That's  correct. 

3  Q    Did  you  notice  on  their  part  a  point  of  view 

4  that  they  shouldn't  ask  too  many  questions? 

5  A    That's  exactly  right. 

6  Q    Was  it  ever  said  in  those  words,  did  anyone 

7  say  "we  just  don't  want  to  know"? 

8  A    It's  possible.   I  don't  recall  a  specific 

9  incident  where  somebody  said  that. 

10  What  I  was  going  to  add  is  that  not  only  do  I 

11  think  that  by  and  large  that  was  the  view  of  the  cabinet 

j 

12  officers  and  a  lot  of  other  people  in  Government,  but  I 

13  also  think  that  was  the  view  of  many  people  in  Congress. 

14  Q    What  do  you  base  that  on? 

•)g         A    Well,  I  base  that  on  the  fact  that  in  August 
Ig    or  sometime  in  late  '86,  a  resolution  was  introduced  on 
■ij  the  floor  of  the  House  to  require  the  President  to  provide 

documentation  on  the  NSC  activities,  and  it  was  referred 
to  three  of  the  committees  of  the  House,  and  the  House 
Armed  Services  Committee  voted  it  out  with  a  negative 


2<     report. 


By  that  time,  it  was  relatively  common  knowledge 
that  --  there  was  a  lot  of  speculation  that  Col9nel  North 
was  involved,  but  you  know  all  of  that  put  together  told 
me  that  people  didn't  want  to  '*"°^-IIrJP|  AOOirirft 


1169 


VNftil^nBr 


175 


1  My  attorneys  have  reminded  me  of  --  that 

2  Secretary  Shultz  did  take  that  kind  of  view  and  expressed 

3  it  to  me  of  really  not  wanting  to  know  the  details  on 

4  the  Iranian  project. 

5  Q    Saying  to  you  what  and  when? 

6  A    Well,  it  would  have  been  sometime  in  the  -- 

7  probably  the  spring  of  '86.   Secretary  Shultz  and  Secretary 

8  Weinberger  and  Director  Casey  and  I  periodically  had  what 

9  we  called  a  family  group  lunch  and  there  ought  to  be  in 

10  my  files  a  folder  —  I  thought  there  was  a  folder  in  which 

11  there  may  be  some  notes  from  those  family  group  lunches; 

12  but  I  used  at  least  one  of  those  occasions  to  give  them 

13  an  update  on  the  Iranian  project  and  it  was  either  during 

14  the  lunch  or  after  the  lunch,  by  my  recollection,  that 

15  Secretary  Shultz  said,  "Look,  you  know  my  feeling  on  this. 
•J6  I  don't  think  we  ought  to  be  doing  it.   Just  don't  bother 

17  me  with  details,"  or  something  like  that,  "on  stuff  I 

18  don't  need  to  know." 

19  MR.  BECKLER:   Arthur,  how  about  a  five-minute 

20  pause? 

21  MR.  LIMAN:   Sure. 

22  (Recess. ) 
MR.  LIMAN:   Mark  as  the  next  exhibit  a  memorandum 

undated  but  bearing  our  Bates  Nos .  N-7514  to  7522. 


iiNniA<;f;iFiFn 


1170 


'iWCLJttSlg^ 


176 


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7 

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9 

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19 

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25 


(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  16  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
MR.  LIMAN:   While  we  are  at  it,  mark  a  PROF 
note  of  April  3,  1986. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  17  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
MR.  LIMAN:   That  is  April  7. 
MR.  BECKLER:   At  the  top  it  says  April  3. 
MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   We  are  referring  to  the  actual 
date,  which  I  think  is  the  7th. 

THE  WITNESS:   This  is  a  very  strange  document. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Have  you  seen  this  document  before? 
A    Well,  that  is  my  handwriting  on  the  cover 
sheet,  but  I  don't  think  all  these  pages  are  related. 

Q  Well,  this  is  the  way  it  was  given  to  us  after 
being  taken  by  the  FBI.  I  believe,  Admiral,  that  a  copy 
of  this  was  in  your  file. 

A    Well,  as  I  said,  that's  my  handwriting  at  the 
top,  with  instructions  to  my  outer  office. 
Let  me  finish  looking  at  it. 
Q    Tell  me  what  is  strange  about  it.   It  reads 
from  one  --  pages  1  through  page  5,  and  it  refer,s  -- 
A    But  you  see  -- 
Q    —  to  the  terms  of  reference. 


IINCLtSSlFIED 


1171 


vwnt/i^ffm^ 


''         A    But  I  think  --  oh,  okay.   I  see  what  it  is. 

2  Q     It  asks  that  the  President  approve  the  terms  of 

3  reference  and  then  the  terms  of  reference  follow. 

^         A    When  I  first  started  reading  it,  I  thought  it 

5  was  an  early  draft  of  the  chronology,  but  it  isn't  that. 

6  Q    No,  it  isn't. 

7  A    Okay.   I  see  what  it  is. 

8  Q    Okay.   Do  you  recall  seeing  this  document? 

9  A    Yes.   I  recall  seeing  it,  but  the  time  that  I 

10  recall  seeing  it  is  --  well,  until  I  saw  this  -- 

11  Q    This  being  your  handwriting? 

12  A    My  handwriting  here. 

13  You  see,  I  am  not  sure  --  I  think  what  this  is, 

14  as  I  told  you  earlier,  on  Sunday,  the  23rd  of  November, 

15  Colonel  North  called  me  --  maybe  I  didn't  say  this  yet. 

16  Colonel  North  called  me  at  home  on  Sunday  the  2  3rd  after 

17  he  had  finished  meeting  with  the  Attorney  General  most 

18  of  the  day;  and  I  was  getting  ready  to  sit  down  and  eat 

19  dinner.   I  think  it  was  on  a  non|-secure  line. 

20  Colonel  North  said,  "Admiral,  I  spent  all  day 

21  with  the  Attorney  General,  and  his  people  turned  up  a 

22  memo  orv  the  contra  connection  to  the  Iranian  project." 

23  He  saiH,  "I've  explained  everything  to  the  Attorney 

24  General."   I  can't  remember  my  exact  reaction,  but  at 

25  that  point  I  was  getting  pretty  tired 


UNCLA!;!;iHFn 


1172 


IXKLIt^lSHIr 


178 


1  But  anyway,  I  said,  "Well,  I'll  see  you  in  the 

2  office  tomorrow." 

3  He  came-  into  the  office  on  Monday,  explained 

4  that  the  Attorney  General's  people  had  found  a  memo  and  -- 

5  in  his  safe  which  revealed  the  contra  connection.   I 

6  believe  I  probably  said  something  to  the  effect  at  the 

7  time  I  was  surprised  there  was  anything  in  writing  on  it. 

8  I  said,  "I  don't  remember  the  memo  that  you  are  referring 

9  to.   Send  me  a  copy  of  it." 

10  Later  in  the  day,  either  --  well,  it  would  have 

11  been  Monday  the  24th,  I  guess  --  later  that  day,  he 

12  apparently  sent  a  copy  over  and  the  first  time  I  recall 

13  seeing  this  together  was  the  following  morning  on  the 

14  25th.   After  I  had  breakfast,  after  seeing  the  Attorney 

15  General  early  in  the  morning,  and  also  talking  to  Don 

16  Regan,  Commander  Thompson  came  in.   I  said,  "Did  Ollie 

17  ever  send  over  that  memo?"   He  brought  what  I  believe  -- 

18  this  is  a  copy  of  what  he  brought  in  at  that  time. 

19  I  think  the  timing  on  this  note  on  the  top  was 

20  sometime  that  last  week  in  November. 

21  Q    You  mean  the  note  that  you  wrote  "keep  this 

22  together  for  me.   Iran.   J. P."   You-  believe  you  wrote 

23  that  when  you  were  given  the  copy  in  November? 

24  A    That's  right.  , 

25  Q    But  did  you  see  this  at  oj^sbguX  the  time  it 


tiWfMlMlfft 


1173 


(Nft|l^tt&r 


179 


1  was  written? 

2  A    I  may  have.   I  did  not  recall  it.   I  don't  recall 

3  it  now. 

4  Q    When  you  look  at  it,  there's  a  reference  to  "the 

5  residual  funds  from  this  transaction  are  allocated  as 

6  follows."   It  says,  "$2  million  to  purchase  the  replace- 

7  ment  TOWs,"  and  then  says  "$12  million  will  be  used  to 

8  purchase  critically  needed  supplies  for  the  Nicaraguan 

9  democratic  resistance  forces." 

10  A     Right. 

11  Q    Does  that  refresh  your  recollection  that  you 

12  saw  this  memo  at  the  time? 

13  A    No,  it  doesn't. 

•J4         Q    Were  you  given  that  information  orally? 
15         A    I  think  --  you  know,  I  have  tried  to  speculate 
15    and  recall  whether  I  had  seen  this  before.   My  supposition 
17     IS  that  this  is  probably  the  memorandum  that  Colonel 
13    North  used  to  brief  me  on  the  Iranian  project  and  that  he 
19    had  come  up  with  a  plan  that  would  transfer  funds  to  the 
contras . 

Q    Let  me  ask  you  this,  Admiral:   When  you  briefed 

the  President  on  a  January  17th  finding,  you  were  talking 

about  a  sale  by  the  CIA  to  Iran  without  any  profit  to  the 

agent;  that's  what  you  were  talking  about,  correcp? 

A  ThcK'^  correct , 


IINP.I  h^m^n 


1174 


UNSLi^lHfflr 


180 


1  Q    Now  you  are  being  told  by  Colonel  North  that 

2  the  transaction  is  going  to  end  up  generating  as  much  as 

3  S12  million  for  the  contras;  correct? 

4  A    That's  correct. 

5  Q    Did  you  not  think  that  it  was  a  matter  of 

6  sufficient  importance  that  the  President  of  the  United 

7  States  should  make  the  decision? 

8  A    No,  I  didn't. 

9  Q    Vou  recognize  that  if  this  became  public,  the 

10  fact  that  the  money  was  being  funneled,  it  would  cause 

11  enormous  embarrassment  to  his  administration;  correct? 

12  A    I  think  that's  probably  one  thing  that  I  under- 

13  estimated. 

•J4         Q    Well,  did  you  not  realize  that  it  could  at  the 

15  very  least  cause  problems  with  Congress  in  terms  of  funding? 

1g         A    I  didn't  think  those  were  insurmountable.   I 

17  knew  it  would  cause  problems.  That  is  clearly  why  I  decided 

18  not  to  tell  him. 

19  Q    But  by  not  telling  the  President,  you  preempted 

20  a  decision  from  him;  is  that  correct? 

2)  A    I  didn't  view  it  that  way,  Mr.  Liman.   I  viewed 

22  it  as  the  important  objective  here  was  to  keep  the 

23  democratic  forces,  the  contras,  alive,  until  we  got  the 

24  legislation  changed. 

«-  As  I  said  earlier,  we  were  very  confident, 


1175 


"Wtussiffir 


181 


1  including  myself,  that  we  could  get  the  legislation  in 

2  1986.   But  It  was  going  to  take  time.   We  simply  —  they 

3  didn't  have  the  funds  to  last  that  long. 

4  Q    Who  told  you  they  didn't  have  the  funds  to  last 

5  that  long? 

6  A    Colonel  North.   That  was  also,  I  think,  supported 

7  by  the  general  view  of  the  restricted  IG  and  the  CIA  that 

8  were  keeping  track  of  it  from  an  intelligence  point  of 

9  view. 

10         Q    Admiral,  were  you  not  told  that  the  NHAO 

■)•]     organization  couldn't  even  spend  the  money  that  had  been 

12  appropriated  for  it? 

13  A    No.   I  was  not  told. 

14  Q    Did  you  ever  meet  Mr.  Duemling? 

15  A    Duemling.   I  met  with  Duemling  very  early  on 
1g    when  the  NHAO  was  established.   Secretary  Shultz ,  as  I 
17     recall,  had  kind  of  a  kick-off  organizational  meeting 
ig    with  all  of  the  interagency  players  that  were  involved 

19  and  I  attended  that,  but  didn't  attend  that  level.   He 

20  did  not  chair  it  again.   So  I  didn't  attend  any  more  of 
2*  those  meetings. 

I  can't  recall  —  I  could  have  had  some  tele- 
phone conversations  with  Duemling,  but  my  staff  .'dealt 
with  him  and  I  didn't. 

Q    I  marked  as  the  iicxt  exhibit 


IINHI  A<;!;iFIEl) 


1176 


HNttWIfflr 


182 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


A    I  don't  think,  by  the  way  --  excuse  me.   I  don't 
think  that  --  if  that  is  the  case,  I'd  be  very  surprised; 
in  fact,  I  thought  just  the  opposite  was  the  case,  that 
NHAO  was  going  to  run  out  of  money  at  the  end  of  March. 
There  would  still  be  material  in  the  pipeline. 

Q    You  didn't  know  he  had  to  make  block  gran^  in 
order  to  get  rid  of  the  money  by  the  time  that  ^^gi^gress 
had  put  the  deadline  on? 

A     I  don't  recall  being  aware  of  that. 

Q    Admiral,  did  you  ever  see  any  other  versions 
of  this  memorandum,  referring  to  the  use  of  the  proceeds 
of  the  arms  sales  for  Iran? 

A    I  do  not  recall  seeing  any  other  versions  of 
it. 

Q    Any  other  writings  referring  to  it? 

A    Writings? 

Q     Other  than  that  PROF  note  on  the  6  million? 

A    I  simply  don't  recall. 

Q    Did  you  ever  — 

A     In  fact,  my  operating  assumption  was  that 
there  wasn't  anything  in  writing  on  it,  because  I  told 
Colonel  North  repeatedly  not  to  put  anything  in  writing 
on  the  transfer  of  funds  to  the  contras  and  not  to  talk 


to  anybody  about  it. 

Q    Transfer  of  funds  from  whom? 


UNCUSSIFIED 


1177 


tlNftmSr 


183 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 


UNCLASS  FIED: 


A    From  the  Iranian  project  to  the  democratic 
resistance,  to  the  contras. 

Q    How  many  --  you  said  you  told  him  repeatedly? 

A  I  told  him  several  times.  I  was  surprised  to 
learn  —  and  I  forget  exactly  when  I  learned  it  —  that 
he  said  something  to  Mr.  McFarlane  on  the  way  back  from 
Tehran.  I  would  have  advised  him  or  told  him  not  to  do 
that  if  I  knew  he  was  planning  on  it. 

Q    Why? 

A    Because,  again,  I  didn't  want  anybody  else 
responsible  for  it. 

Q    You  were  willing  to  take  the  rap  yourself? 

A    I  was  willing  to  take  the  responsibility  for 
my  decision.   I  thought  it  was  important  to  the  President 
and  I  thought  it  was  important  to  the  long-term  interests 
of  the  United  States. 

MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Admiral,  did  it  ever  occur  to 
you  that  because  you  didn't  tell  the  President  about  the 
fact  that  the  Iranians  were  about  to  be  overcharged,  you 
might  prejudice  the  possibility  of  future  relationships 
between  the  United  States  and  Iran? 

THE  WITNESS:   That  was  not  really  part  of  my 
calculus,  I  guess.   We  thought  --  I  think,  trying  to 

struct  again  my  frame  of  mind  at  the  time,  by  that 
,  when  Colonel  North  raised  this  with  me,  we  knew 


1178 


l)NI«t$$lflE»T 


184 


1  that  the  Iranians  were  being  overcharged  prior  to  U.S. 

2  involvement.   The  Iranians  were,  in  my  assessment,  were 

3  aware  that  they  were  having  to  pay  premium  prices,  and 

4  its  long-term  impact  on  U.S. -Iranian  relations  was  pretty 

5  low  on  my  concern. 

6  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

7  Q    Did  North  tell  you  the  mechanics  by  which  this 

8  money  would  be  channeled? 

g         A    Not  when  he  first  raised  it. 
10         Q    At  any  time? 
•)•)         A    At  some  point  after  that,  I  think  I  became  aware 

12  that  at  least  in  general  terms,  that  money  was  --  the  money 

13  was  going  from  the  Iranians  to  the  Israelis,  thence  to  an 

14  account  that  Secord  had  control  of,  and  then  a  portion  of 

15  that  would  go  to  a  CIA  account,  which  the  CIA  would  then 
15     use  to  pay  the  Defense  Department.   I  had  a  general 

17    understanding  of  that. 

Q    And  the  balance? 

A    The  balance  would  be  used  to  support  the 
contras . 

Q    You  understood  — 

A    Now,  I  did  not  know,  for  example,  that  Khashoggi 
was  involved  in  the  bridge  financing,  so  to  speak. 

Q    Did  you  know  that  Secord  was  privy  to  the  fact 
the  money  would  be  used  for  the  contras?! 


1INCUSSIHED 


1179 


BNftMPT 


185 


1  A    Oh,  that  Secord  was  privy  to  that? 

2  Q    Yes. 

3  A    Yes.   Absolutely.   In  fact,  I  thought  Dick  was 

4  engineering  this. 

5  Q    Why  did  you  think  that? 

6  A    Because  of  what  Colonel  North  told  me. 

7  Q    What  did  he  say  about  that? 

8  A    I  can't  remember  exact  conversations.   But 

9  I  certainly  --  you  know,  I  leftToffice  with  that  assump- 

10  tion. 

11  Q    When  you  left  office,  did  you  believe  that  all 

12  of  the  profits  of  this  transaction  had  been  channeled 

13  to  the  contras? 

14  A    That's  correct.   I  didn't  have  any  reason  to 

15  believe  otherwise. 

■J5         Q    Am  I  correct  that  it  would  come  as  a  surprise 

•]7  to  you  if  a  substantial  portion  of  that  money  was  in 

18  effect  profit? 

19  A    You  mean  personal  profit? 

20  Q    Or  profit  to  the  Lake  enterprise? 

21  A    That  would  be  surprising. 

22  Q    Would  it  be  surprising  in  part  because  you  were 

23  told  T-  I  think  you  testified  to  this  from  time  to  time 

24  that  Secord  was  losing  money,  and  needed  money? 
-jc         A    It  would  still  be  surprising. 


IINHI  A.<;!;iFIFIl 


1180 


HttStA^iEBr 


186 


1  Q    North  told  you  that  Secord  wasn't  making  money 

2  out  of  this? 

3  A     I  don't  recall  that  Colonel  North  specifically 

4  told  me  that.   I  do  recall  conversations  in  which  he  said 

5  that  he  felt  that  Dick  was  losing  money. 

6  Q    That's  the  same. 

7  A     Yes. 

8  Q    Did  he  tell  you  that  he  was  in  debt  as  a  result 

9  of  this? 

10  A    I  don't  believe  so. 

11  Q    Did  he  ever  ask  you  to  intervene  with  Director 

12  Casey  to  persuade  Casey  once  the  CIA  came  back  in  to  buy 

13  the  assets  that  the  Secord  group  had? 

14  A    That's  correct.   But  that  was  -- 

15  Q    Wait.   Your  lawyer  -- 

16  MR.  BECKLER:   I  just  had  an  observation  to  make. 

17  Maybe  it's  total  linguistics.   It's  possible  that  Secord 

18  could  be  losing  money  and  making  money  on  this,  but  still 

19  losing  money. 

20  MR.  LIMAN:   Richard,  that's  possible.   I'm  not 

21  trying  to,  you  know,  get  him  to  that  kind  of  linguistics 

22  thing.   I  am  trying  to  get  the  Admiral's  memory  of  this. 

23  *    There  are  documents  which  he  will  have  an 

24  opportunity  to  look  at.   But  we  are  going  to  try#to  finish 

25  without  much  more  ado. 


1181 


IWSLftSStfi^ 


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19 

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24 

25 


THE  WITNESS:   Yes.   I  remember  that  incident. 
As  I  recall,  it  was  presented  to  me  from  the  standpoint 
that  --  all  during  the  latter  part  of  1986,  once  we  got 
the  two  votes  through  the  House  and  the  Senate,  and  we 
kept  pushing  to  get  the  conference  report  out  and  get  the 
appropriation,  but  we  were  preparing 


'and  Colonel  North's  point  to  me,  as  I  recall,  was 
that  It's  ridiculous  to  have  this  logistics  apparatus  set 
up,  functioning  well,  and  the  CIA  not  pick  it  up  and  go 
off  and  re-establish  and  set  up  their  own;  time  will  be 
lost  that  we  can  ill  afford.   It  would  be  a  terrible  waste 
of  those  assets. 

So  he  asked  me  to  talk  to  Director  Casey.   He 
said  the  lower-level  people  at  the  CIA  didn't  want  to  touch 
It  because  of  their  fear  that  they  would  somehow  be 
contaminated  by  that;  and  as  I  recall,  I  agreed  to  talk  to 
Director  Casey. 

I  don't  remember  —  I  don't  believe  I  actually 
talked  to  Bill  about  it,  but  I  think  I  did  talk  to  Bob 
Gates. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Were  you  asked  to  talk  to  him  about  buying  them, 
buying  the  assets? 

A    I  believe  so.   I  believe  sol 


UNCUSSIFIED 


1182 


Mt^ffiBr 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

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11 

12 

13 

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16 

17 

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19 

20 

21 

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23 

24 


Q    Do  you  remember  what  price  was  put  on  them? 

A    I  don't  remember  that. 

Q    You  did  talk  to  Gates? 

A    I  believe  I  did  talk  to  Gates.   And  I  went  over 
the  arguments  about  why  it  would  be  useful  to  do  that;  and 
Bob  said,  "Let  me  check  into  it,"  or  something  like  that. 

Q     If  you  look  at  Exhibit  17,  which  we  believe  was 
written  --  it's  a  PROF  note  to  you  about  the  same  time 
as  Exhibit  16,  would  you  examine  it  and  if  you  examine 
It,  you  will  notice  it  says,  "Per  request  of  J.M.P.,  have 
prepared  a  paper  for  our  boss  which  lays  out  arrangements." 

Can  you  tell  me,  sir,  whether  that  refers  to  the 
paper  about  the  use  of  the  proceeds  of  the  arms  sales  for 
the  contras? 

A    I  don't  know. 

Q    Did  you  ever  ask  Colonel  North  to  prepare  a 
paper  for  the  President  in  which  you  —  in  which  he 
described  the  amount  of  money  that  was  going  to  be 
available  to  the  contras  from  the  arms  sale? 

A    No.   I  did  not. 

Q    Did  you  ever  destroy  any  papers  reflecting  the 
use  of  any  of  the  nxfureeds  of  Ai^k.  aTW  f<^e  for  the 
contras? 

A    As  I  said,  Mr.  Liman,  earlier,  you  know',  I  did 
not  recall  seeing  this  memo.   To  my  knowledge,  there  wasn't 


mtmrn 


1183 


iltttl^tSttr 


189 


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2 

3 

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6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

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24 


anything  in  writing  on  this. 

Q    Did  you  destroy  any  paper  reflecting  the  use 
of  proceeds  for  the  contras? 

A    I  did  not.   Not  knowingly. 

Q    Do  you  recall  any  piece  of  paper  other  than 
the  ones  we  have  talked  about,  the  S6  million  one  and  this 
memorandum  that  refer  to  that  subject? 

A    Sometime  in  October  of  1986,  it  was  after  the 
aircraft  with  Hasenfus  aboard  was  shot  down,  I  recall  having 
a  couple  of  conversations  that  may  or  may  not  be  pertinent. 
One  was  with  Colonel  North  in  which  he  came  into  my  office 
to  report  on  the  details  of  the  shoot-down  of  the  aircraft. 
He  reported  to  me  there  had  been  a  lot  of  identifying 
information  aboard  the  aircraft.   I  told  him  I  was  very 
displeased  with  that.   I  didn't  think  it  was  very  profes- 
sional, that  these  guys  needed  to  shape  up  in  terms  of 
maintaining  deniability  of  the  operation  and  carrying 
identifying  information  aboard  the  aircraft  was  just  not 
acceptable. 

I  don't  recall  the  conversation  precisely,  but 
I  conceivably  could  have  said  something  to  him  about  his 
records. 

Then  later,  by  my  best  recollection  -f 

Q    Said  something  _to_him_about_getting  rid,  of  his 
..  .„^^^^-} 


mething  to  him  about  gett 

IIN^LimiEU 


1184 


VNftil^tEDr 


190 


''         A    I  could  have.   I  don't  recall  specifically  doing 

2  that,  but  my  mood  at  the  time  was  one  of  annoyance,  and  I 

3  do  specifically  recall  talking  to  him  about  the  information 
^  that  was  aboard  the  aircraft. 

5  But,  you  know.  Colonel  North  would  have  had  a 

6  clear  view  that  I  didn't  want  anything  in  writing  on  the 

7  support  to  the  contras . 

8  Later  --  and  I  believe  it  was  the  same  month  — 

9  Mr.  DeGraf fenreid,  the  special  assistant  to  the  President 

10  for  intelligence  affairs,  came  in  to  see  me  and  to  indicate 

11  his  concern  for  Colonel  North's  exposure  on  Central 

12  America.   At  that  time  there  were  a  lot  of  stories  in  the 

13  newspaper.   He  wanted  to  know  if  I  recalled  that  there  were 

14  several  memorandum  in  System  4 ,  which  was  our  paperwork 

15  system,  to  keep  track  of  intelligence  matters  and  other 

16  sensitive  issues  on  Central  America  that  would  be  very 

17  damaging  to  the  administration,  that  talked  about  details 

18  of  supporting  the  contras. 

19  I  told  him  I  didn't  recall  the  memos  specifically, 

20  but  I  did  recall  back  in  early  '84  or  '85  that  Colonel 

21  North  had  sent  some  memos  to  Mr.  McFarlane  and  laid  out  the 

22  status  of  funding  for  the  contras  and  the  status  of 

23  logistics,  but  it  had  been  months  or  maybe  even  years 

24  since  I  had  seen  those  memos  and  I  didn't  really  recall 

25  exactly  what  was  in  them. 


Hissra 


1185 


KNOUSSIFSBT 


191 


1  The  clear  intent  of  Mr.  DeGraf fenreid's  visit 

2  was  to  figure  out  a  way  to  get  rid  of  those  memos,  and 

3  I  told  him  that  I  couldn't  —  as  I  said,  I  couldn't 

4  remember  what  was  in  them,  but  go  talk  to  Colonel  North 

5  and  see  what  you  could  work  out,  or  %rords  to  that  effect. 

6  Q    When  was  that? 

7  A    That  was  probably  sometiine  in  October,  as  near 

8  as  I  can  tell. 

9  Q    Before  the  Iranian  thing  became  public? 

10  A    Yes. 

11  Q         After  Hasenfus? 

12  A    After  Hasenfus  was  shot  down.  As  near  as  I  can 

13  place  it. 

14  What  I  assuned  had  set  Mr.  DcGraffenreid  off 

15  were  all  the  stories  appearing  in  the  paper  at  the  time. 
10        Q    Oe  you  recall  —  Z  am  sorry.  Go  ahead. 

^j  A    I  guess  that's  really  the  end.   I  think  Z  have 

10  answered  your  question. 

19      Q   y... 

Do  you  recall  that  in  August  of  '85,  when  the 
congressional  cosnittees  made  inquiries  of  the  NSC  about 
these  activities,  that  a  file  search  was  done  then?  Were 
23    you  aware  of  that? 

A    I  am  not  aware  of  that.  , 

Q    Were  you  aware  at  that  time  of  any  effort  to 


IINRIASSIEIEL 


1186 


15 
16 
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DNKASSIPIES'^ 


192 


1  get  rid  of  documents  that  were  embarrassing? 

2  A    No.   I  don't  recall  that. 

3  Q    Were  you  involved  in  the  formulation  of  the 

4  replies  to  the  congressional  committees  about  North? 

5  A    I  was  not.   In  fact,  I  don't  think  I  have  seen 

6  those  letters  other  than  the  extracts  that  are  in  the 

7  Tower  Commission  Report. 

8  MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   v«fhat  about  the  period  during  the 
g    resolution  of  inquiry,  which  is  1986?   Were  you  involved 

•]0    in  a  document  search  at  that  time? 

THE  WITNESS:   Not  a  document  search. 

MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   How  about  a  document  review? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  believe  so.   But  --  the 


^^     1986  activities  came  to  my  attention  when  Chairman 


Hamilton  sent  me  a  letter  in  which  he  wanted  to  --  he 
wanted  me  to  make  Colonel  North  available  to  talk  to  the 
House  Intelligence  Committee.   I  was  aware  that  the  letters 
had  come  in  the  previous  year. 

Mr.  McFarlane  had  worked  those  letters  personally. 
He  had  come  up  to  the  Hill  and  had  several  meetings  up 
here. 

In  discussing  --  and  for  some  reason,  not 
particularly  deliberately,  I  had  just  never  gotten  around 
to  reading  the  replies  of  the  letters  that  he  sfent.   In 
discussing  with  Commander  Thomoson  and  —  well,  it  was 

^  '^4AiAi  ionicini____ 


1187 


DNIL/tSSIfiF 


193 


1  primarily  Cominander  Thompson,  I  guess.   i  think  it  was  at 

2  that  point  I  asked  him  if  he  had  copies  of  the  letters  that 

3  Bud  had  --  Mr.  McF.arlane  had  sent  to  the  Hill  the  previous 

4  year.   He  said  he  did.   I  said,  "Well,  I  probably  want  to 

5  look  at  those." 

6  As  It  turned  out,  I  never  did  get  around  to 

7  looking  at  them. 

8  We  did  have  a  conversation  at  that  point  about 
g    the  letters  that  Mr.  McFarlane  had  sent  up  and  I  can't 

1Q     remember  whether  Commander  Thompson  read  from  the  letters 

11  or  ]ust  told  me  approximately  what  he  said;  but  at  the 

12  time,  I  remember  at  least  thinking  that  that  was  —  you 

13  know,  I  would  not  have  done  it  that  way.   The  statements 

14  that  I  have  since  reviewed  in  the  Tower  Commission  Report 

15  are,  m  my  opinion,  much  too  broad,  and  I  went,  half  said 
1g     it  that  way;  and  so  in  talking  to  my  legislative  people 
■^j  and  the  White  House  legislative  people  about  responding 

to  Chairman  Hamilton's  request,  I  decided  rather  than  to 
answer  his  letter,  that  I  would  call  him,  which  I  did. 
By  the  time  I  called  him,  I  think  the  House 
Armed  Services  Committee  had  already  voted  on  the  resolu- 
tion and  they  had  voted  it  down.   Chairman  Hamilton  said 
to  me  that  technically  he  didn't,  with  one  committee  having 
voted  it  down,  that  he  really  didn't  have  to  do  anything 
more;  but,  on  the  other  hand,  he  thought  that  in  order  to 


1188 


18 


tXKlA^lfiHt 


194 


1  satisfy  the  members  of  his  committee,  it  would  be  very 

2  useful  if  they  had  an  opportunity  to  meet  with  Colonel  North 

3  and  he  went  on  to  say  that  he  really  didn't  intend  to  push 

4  this,  but  he  thought  that  such  a  meeting  would  help  clear 

5  the  air. 
So  we  talked  about  the  mode  of  such  a  meeting, 

7  and  I  asked  if  they  would  be  willing  to  come  down  to  the 

8  Situation  Room  for  an  informal  meeting  with  Colonel  North, 

9  that  he  understood  that  our  general  —  the  administration's 

10  general  policy  was  not  to  make  members  of  the  N'SC  staff 

11  available  for  hearings.   He  said,  yes,  he  understood  that. 

12  He  thought  that  would  probably  be  an  acceptable  arrange- 

13  ment.   I  said,  "Well,  let  me  talk  to  Colonel  North  and  our 

14  legislative  people  and  I  will  get  back  to  you." 

15  I  called  Colonel  North  and  asked  him  if  he  would 
•jg     be  willing  to  talk  to  the  committee  under  those  conditions, 
■jy     those  informal  conditions,  in  the  Situation  Room,  rather 

than  on  the  Hill.   He  said  he  could  handle  that.   Our 
ig     legislative  people  all  agreed  that  that  was  an  acceptable 
2Q     solution  that  didn't  set  a  bad  precedent. 

So  I  either  called  or  sent  word  back  to 
Chairman  Hamilton  that  we  would  agree  to  do  that;  and  in 
August  of  '86,  the  meeting  took  place.   I  was  on  leave 
that  particular  week,  my  annual  weekly  leave,  and_ that 
was  essentially  it. 


ONSUSSra 


1189 


13 


19 
20 
21 
22 
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25 


HNftH^ffiBi' 


195 


1  MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Did  you  give  Colonel  North  any 

2  instructions  as  to  what  to  say  or  what  not  to  say  in  the 

3  presentation? 

4  THE  WITNESS:   Didn't  give  him  any  instructions. 

5  I  didn't.   Obviously  —  my  position  on  that,  my  thinking 

6  was  that  there  was  an  awful  lot  of  stuff  in  the  press  that 

7  was  speculative.   There  was  a  lot  of  inaccurate  stuff. 
S    You  know,  I  knew  there  was  some  risk  in  Colonel  North 

9    talking  to  the  committee.   I  frankly  did  not  expect  him 

10  to  lie  to  the  committee,  and  certainly  didn't  tell  him 

11  that.   I  assumed  that  what  he  would  do  is  that  he  would 

12  answer  the  questions  directly,  and  there  was  so  much 
fictitious  stuff  out  there  that  he  would  be  able  to  do 

^4    that  in  a  truthful  way  and  not  lie  to  the  committee.   But, 
^2    on  th«  other  hand,  I  didn't  expect  him  to  volunteer 

information  to  th«  committee.   In  other  words,  still  with- 
hold information  but  answer  directly  their  specific 


19    questions. 


BY  MR.  LIMAM: 

Q    Do  you  recall  having  any  discussion  with 
Director  Casey  or  his  staff  in  or  around  October  of  1986? 

A    Yes. 

q"    Do  you  recall  that  at  that  time  they  h^d  heard 
some  rumors  that  there  had  been  some  diversion  oli  funds? 

A    Yei 


•  iiNnimiFiFD 


1190 


URfti^lFW 


196 


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4 

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25 


Q    Tell  us  about  that. 

A    Okay.   At  some  point  in  October,  Director  Casey 
called  and  wanted  me  to  stop  by  his  EOB  office  for  a  few 
minutes.   I  agreed.   Went  over. 

Bob  Gates  was  either  in  the  room  or  came  in 
shortly  after  I  got  there.   Director  Casey  showed  me  a 
memorandum  that  had  been  prepared  by  Mr.  Charlie  Allen, 
which,  as  I  recall  it,  it  was  a  --  essentially  a  review  of 
the  Iranian  project,  and  reported  a  conversation  with  a 
Mr.  Furmark ,  and  that  was  probably  the  first  time  that 
Furmark  came  to  my  attention.   I  conceivably  could  have 
heard  about  it  before.   And  Mr.  Furmark  --  and  I  believe 
these  were  conversations  between  Mr.  Allen  and  Mr.  Furmark, 
my  best  recollection.   And  Furmark  indicated  --  and  I 
think  this  was  also  the  first  indication  that  I  had  that 
Khashoggi  was  involved  in  the  bridge  financing  for 
Ghorbanifar,  or  at  least  that  was  what  Furmark  was  alleging, 

He  was  saying  that  there  had  been  --  there  were 
some  Canadian  investors  also  involved  and  that  they  had  not 
gotten  all  of  the  money  that  they  thought  was  due  them 
from  a  prior  financial  dealing  with  Mr.  Ghorbanifar,  and 
then  there  was  one  paragraph  in  which  Allen  reported  on 
Furmark 's  speculation  that  some  of  the  money  had  been 
diverted  to  the  contras .  , 

The  memoranda  went  on,  as  I  recall,  to  recommend 


1191 


MMIffl^ 


197 


1  that  we  form  a  --  essentially  a  Wiseman's  group  to  develop 

2  a  --  primarily  to  develop  a  public  affairs  plan  to  be  used 

3  if  our  Iranian  operation  were  exposed.   I  don't  recall  that 
^    Director  Casey  called  my  attention  to  that  paragraph.   I 

5  read  the  whole  memo. 

6  I  purposely  did  not  raise  it  with  Director  Casey. 

7  I  simply  didn't  want  to  talk  to  him  about  it.   And  with 

8  regard  to  Mr.  Allen's  recommendation,  the  Director  endorsed 

9  that,  and  I  told  him  I  would  think  about  it,  and  I  believe 

10  that  was  the  end  of  the  meeting. 

11  Q     Is  that  the  only  time  you  ever  discussed  with 

12  Director  Casey  a  --  or  had  any  discussion  with  Director 

13  Casey  at  which  there  was  either  a  document  or  discussion 

14  of  diversion? 

15  A    To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  there  wasn't  any 

16  other  paper  that  I  can  recall;  and  I  — 

17  Q    And  this  just  wasn't  mentioned? 

18  A    This  wasn't  mentioned.   I  don't  recall  any 

19  conversation  about  it  either. 

20  Q    Did  you  ever  have  any  discussion  with  anybody 

21  else  at  the  CIA  about  diversion? 
A    I  don't  think  so,  Mr.  Liman.   As  I  said,  my 

best  r.ecollection  —  and  certainly  my  intent  --  was  not  to 
talk  to  anybody.   I  don't  believe  I  did.        *, 

Q    Did  Director  Casey  or  anyone  e^e  at  the  CIA 


Dr  Casey  or  anyone  eise  a 


1192 


MMW 


198 


1  suggest  that  you  speak  to  White  House  counsel  about  the 

2  subject  of  diversion? 

3  A    There  was  something  about  White  House  counsel 

4  mentioned,  but  I  don't  think  it  was  about  diversion. 

5  Q    What  do  you  recall  it  being  about? 

6  A    Well,  I  am  trying  to  think. 

7  Q    Do  you  recall  telling  them  --  maybe  this  will 

8  help  --  do  you  recall  telling  them  that  you  didn't  trust 

9  Fielding  and  that  you  preferred  to  speak  to  Commander 

10  Thompson? 

11  A    No.   I  have  since  read  or  seen  that  someplace. 

12  Fielding  wasn't  even  there.   That  comment  doesn't  make 

13  any  sense. 

14  Q    Fielding  wasn't  there,  but  --  you  mean  Fielding 

15  wasn't  in  the  White  House  at  the  time? 

16  A    Wasn't  in  the  White  House. 
■J7         Q    What  about  Wallison? 

'^3         A    Well,  I  would  associate  myself  with  that  comment, 

•J9  but  I  frankly  can't  remember  making  it. 

20  Q    You  would  associate  yourself  with  it  in  what 

21  sense? 

22  A    Well,  I  did  not  want  to  bring  Mr.  Wallison  into 

23  it.   I  really  think  that  it  was,  my  best  recollection  — 

24  and  I  can't  remember  who  the  conversation  was  with  --  but 
9c  I  had  a  conversation  with  somebody  about  whether  'to  bring 

iiNpi  AQQiriFn 


1193 


mmm 


r 


199 


Mr.  Wallison  early  on  into  the  Iranian  finding.   In  fact, 
he  came  down  to  see  me  one  day  in  November  and  wanted  to 
be  briefed  on  the  whole  thing.   I  refused  to  do  it;  and  I 
conceivably  could  have  commented  to  somebody  after  that 
that  I  didn't  really  trust  Mr.  Wallison. 

MR.  BECKLER:   This  is  November  6,  what  year? 

THE  WITNESS:   This  would  be  November  of  1986. 

But  I  don't  recall  Mr.  Fielding's  name  coming 
up.   I  suppose  in  the  meeting  vith  Director  Casey  over  in 
his  office  when  he  showed  me  that  memo,  there  could  have 
been  some  reference  by  his  to  the  diversion  paragraph, 
but  I  really  don't  remember  it.   I  certainly  would  not 
have  wanted  to  talk  about  it.   So  I  would  be  surprised  if 
I  said  anything  about  it. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
0    We  ux*   in  the  home  stretch.   I  am  going  to  talk 
you  through  a  few  more  documents.  Then  we  are  going  to 
call  it  quits. 

N*  talked  about  the  $6  million  PROF  note. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Please  mark  as  the  next  exhibit  a 
PROF  note  from  Oliver  North  dated  May  16,  1986. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  18  was 
marked  for  identification.) 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Have  you  seen  that  before? 


UNtUSSIFIED 


1194 


MIBBW 


200 


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mitlfn 


A    Well,  the  last  time  I  saw  this  was  in  the  Tower 
Commission  Report. 

Q    When  was  the  first  time  you  saw  it? 

A    I  suppose  —  I  probably  saw  it  in  that  May  time 
frame.   But  I  frankly  can't  recall  it. 

You  know,  I  would  receive  hundreds  of  PROF  notes 
every  day. 

Q    Did  you  try  to  read  them? 

A    Tried  to.   At  least  glance  at  them. 
. Q    Where  it  says  "You  should  be  aware  the  resistance 
supporting  organization  now  has  more  than  6  million 
available  for  immediate  disbursement,"  did  I  understand 
your  prior  testimony  to  mean  that  you  assumed  that  that 
came  out  of  the  Iranian  arms  sales? 

A    Yes. 

Q    It  goes  on  to  say,  and  this  was  also  in  the 
Tower  Report,  at  the  very  bottom,  "I  have  no  idea  what 
Don  Regan  does  or  does  not  know  re  my  private  U.S.  opera- 
tion, but  the  President  obviously  knows  why  he's  meeting 
with  several  select  people  to  thank  them  for  their  support 
for  democracy  in  Central  America." 

What  did  you  interpret  that  to  mean? 

A    Well,  the  history  of  this  issue  probaljly  needs 
tp_be^  laid  out  to  kind  of  put  this  in  perspective*. 

As  I  said  earlier,  in  1986,  well,  the  latter 


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VNfilMISI^ 


201 


part,  and  probably  it  started  in  about  May,  I  wanted  --  I 
was  --  by  that  point,  I  guess  we  had  gotten  the  vote  in  the 
House  and  either  we  had  it  in  the  Senate  but  we  really 
weren't  ever  too  worried  about  the  Send 


I  wanted  to  --  in  order  to  lower  Colonel  North's 
visibility  and  because  he  was  being  overworked  --  but  he 
was  a  very  capable  person  —  I  wanted  to  move  him  out  of 
the  central  America  account.  So,  on  the  one  hand.  Colonel 
North  agreed  that  the  CIA  had  to  get  back  into  it,  and  I 
think  that's  the  significance  of  the  one  paragraph  in  his 
memo  about  saying  that  we  really  did  need  to  get  the  CIA 
back  into  the  program. 

But,  on  the  other  hand,  I  think  he  was  kind  of 
torn.   He  did  en:oy  his  work  and  sort  of  prided  himself 
in,  frankly,  keeping  the  contras  alive  during  the  period 
of  time  that  the  CIA  was  restricted  from  doing  anything. 
So  my  plan  was  to  phase  him  out. 

AS  It  turns  out  --  and  I  can't  recall  exactly 
when  It  started  --  but  I  was  at  some  point  after  that 
heavily  criticized  in  the  press  by' our  conservative 
suppo-rters  who  thought  that  I  was  trying  to  fire  Colonel 
J,  ,,   North.   Of  course,  that  was  not  my  intent,  but  tl^e  intent 
IIMPl  fr^riMtnto  lower  his  visibility  and  get  our  opponents  on  the 


1196 


wsmwp 


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off    of   his    back. 

So  that's  what  he  is  referring  to  there. 

Q    What's  he  referring  to  when  he  talks  about  the 
President? 

A    Vou  know,  again  --no,  I  understand.   I  wanted 
to  explain  that  background. 

I  think  it's  just  --  you  know,  he  means  exactly 
what  he  says.   He  assumes  that  the  President  understands 
why  he's  meeting  with  several  select  people;  and  I  agree 
with  that.   You  k.now,  m  the  White  House  during  this  period 
of  ti.me  that  we  were  encouraging  private  support,  we  really 
didn't  distinguish  between  how  the  money  was  going  to  be 
spent.   We  didn't  make  any  distinction  between  --  at  least 
in  my  mind  --  between  using  the  money  in  the  United  States 
to  encourage  public  support  or  providing  it  directly  to 
the  contras. 

I  don't  recall  having  any  specific  conversations 
with  the  President  about  these  meetings.   The  meetings  would 
be  set  up  by  Colonel  North.   I  believe  this  is  the  way  they 
were  set  up,  by  Colonel  North  going  to  the  schedulers  and 
getting  the  schedulers  to  put  these  supporters  on  the 
President's  list  to  see  during  administrative  time.   I  did 
not  attend  any  of  them  that  I  can  recall , 


came  in  to  see  the  President.   I  did  attend  that  meeting, 

iiMPi  Aooicicn 


1197 


wmm 


203 


1  at  which  the  President  thanked  him  for  his  help 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^m   But       —  the 

3  citizen  supporters  were  handled  as  a  routine  matter  that 

4  I  didn't  get  directly  involved  with. 

5  I  knew  they  were  happening.   I  assumed  the 

6  President  understood  why  he  was  meeting  with  them. 

7  Q    There  was  no  doubt  in  your  mind  that  the  President 

8  undarstood  he  was  meeting  with  them  to  thank  them  for 

9  contributing  to  the  contras? 

10  A    There  wasn't  any  question  in  my  mind. 

11  Q    I  think  you  have  told  us  befor*  that  your  view 

12  was  that  this  was  not  illegal  or  inappropriate  activity? 

13  A    No . 

14  Q    And  that  was  th«  President's  view? 

15  A    That's  correct.   Once  in  a  while  he  would  —  if 
19  he  had  a  meeting  the  day  before  and  if  the  person  had 

17  something  interesting  to  report,  he  would  often  provide  a 

19  little  debrief  ebout  what  so-and-so  said  or  something  like 

19  thet.   So  I  —  you  know,  I  an  confident  th&t  he  was  aware 

20  that  these  people  were  making  contributions  to  support  the 

21  contras. 

22  Q    L*t  me  mark  as  the  next  exhibit  a  memorandum 

23  of  November  7,  1984.   I  mark  it  because  we  talked  about 
9A  this  before. 


UNCUSSIFIED 


1198 


wKumeir 


204 


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UNCLASSIFIED 


(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  19  was 
marked  for  identification.) 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Admiral,  remember  I  asked  you  before  whether  you 
had  received  any  criticism  of  the  fact  that  Colonel  North 
was  talking  about  fund  raising,  sources  of  funds  tol 
and  the  CIA  .  If  you  look  at  this  memorandum,  it  says: 
"Admiral  Poindexter  indicates  that  the  Director  called 
you  expressing  concern  that  I  had  discussed  with  Mr. 
ye'-e'-s"  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  "Calero , 
dollars,"  et  cetera. 

Then  it  consists  of  North's  denials  that  he 
discussed  any  of  these  things,  and  it  goes  on  at  the  very 
last  paragraph  on  page  3  to  say:   "At  no  time  did  I  discuss 
wit.^^^^^^^f inancial  arrangements  for  the  FDN.   At  no  time 
did  I  indicate  that  Calero  was  attempting  to  attack  the 
MiGs , "  et  cetera . 

Does  that  refresh  your  recollection.  Admiral, 
that  you  did  get  some  criticism  from  the  CIA  that  North 
was  telling  them  things  that  they  didn't  want  to  know? 
A    The  only  —  I  don't  recall  seeing  this  memo. 
I  no  doubt  did  at  the  time,  although  that  is  not  totally 
clear,  because  it  is  marked  "eyes  only."   It  could  have 
gone  directly  into  Mr.  McFarlane.  , 

Anyway,  I  do  have  a  vague  recollection  of  some 


1199 


IWfliRSlPtl^ 


2C; 


1 

2 

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years  ago  Director  Casey  calling  and  asking  that  Colonel 

North  be  careful  in  talking  to  his  people  about  things 

they  shouldn't  know  about.   That's  a  very  vague  recollection, 

MR.  LIMAN:   Next,  I  would  like  to  have  marked  a 
PROF  note  dated  3/31/86.   This  one  is  from  you,  Admiral. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  20  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     I  would  like  you  to  explain  to  me  what  it's  all 


about. 

I  remember  this  pretty  well. 

Tell  us  what  that's  all  about. 

All  right.   In  one  of  the  last  votes  --  let's 
see,  3/31/86.   That  seems  early.   My  recollection  of  the 
event  --  and  I  thought  it  was  the  vote  in  the  Senate.   I 
don't  think  that  took  place  that  early. 


^NCLASS 


1200 


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Well,  shortly  after  —  and  then  eventually  we 

won  the  vote  in  the  Senate.   Still,  the  time  frame  of  this 

bothers  me  a  little  bit.   I  don't  think  that  quite  matches 
up. 

But,  anyway,  shortly  after  we  agreed  to  do  that, 

there  was  a  story  in  the  newspaper  that  was  something  to 
the  effect  that  the  administration  wou] 


My  staff  had  informed  me  that  they  were  almost 
certain  that^^^HH^^HV,  an  employee  of  the  Defense 
Department  who  worked  in  the  covert  action  programs  there, 
was  responsible  for  leaking  this  information.   I  called 
will  Taft  and  told  him  that  was  ray  suspicion,  and  that  I 
was  so  annoyed  about  it  that  until  they  conduct  an  inves- 
tigation over  there  and  questioned ^^|^^^H  on  it,  we 
were  not  going  to  inform  them  of  any  more  cover't  , activities , 

MR.  LIMAN:   Mark  as  the  next  exhibit  another 


1201 


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8 

9 

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11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 


UNCI  m 


rnmsm^ 


207 


PROF  note  from  you.   I  think  it  is  dated  May  19,  1986. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  21  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
THE  WITNESS:   This  is  in  response  to  that  earlier 
exhibit  you  showed  me. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q  The  one  in  which  --  about  "I  don't  know  what 
Don  Regan  knows  about  my  activities,  but  the  President 
knows  why  he's  thanking  everyone"? 

A    Right. 

Q    You  responded  by  saying,  Don  Regan  knows  very 
little  of  your  operation  and  that  is  just  as  well. 

A    Right. 

Q    Can  you  tell  me  what  operation  you  were  referring 
to  and  why  it  was  just  as  well  that  Don  Regan  didn't  know 
about  it? 

A    Well  -- 

Q    This  is  still  in  executive  session. 

A    Well,  the  operation  we  are  talking  about  is 
support  of  the  contras.   What  I  said  was  accurate.   I  don't 
recall  talking  to  Don  Regan  directly  about  it.   I  am  pretty 
sure  that  he,  as  well  as  most  everybody  else  in  the  White 
House,  knew  that  Colonel  North  was  the  NSC  staff  officer 
with  primary  responsibility  for  Central  America.' and  that 
rirf^s  involved  in  some  way  in  supporting  the  democratic 

Krll 


1202 


17 
18 


INSUMffl^ 


208 


1  resistance. 

2  -       But  again,  based  on  my  feeling  that  if  we  were 

3  going  to  keep  this,  up  and  avoid  more  restrictive  legisla- 

4  tion,  that  we  simply  had  to  limit  the  knowledge  of  the 

5  details  to  those  that  had  absolutely  the  need  to  know.   I 

6  simply  didn't  think  that  he  had  an  absolute  need  to  know. 

7  Q    He  was  the  Chief  of  Staff.   Was  there  more  to 

8  it? 

9  A    Well  — 

10  MR.  BECKLER:   Lay  it  all  out. 

11  THE  WITNESS:   He  talked  to  the  press  too  much. 

12  I  was  afraid  he'd  make  a  slip. 

13  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

14  Q    All  right. 

15  MR.  LIMAN:   Next  is  a  note  which  I  believe  is 
15    dated  somewhere  around  July,  1986,  after  July  15,  1986. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  22  was 
marked  for  identification.) 

19  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

20  Q    Just  so  I  can  focus  you  on  it,  I  would  like  you 

21  to  tell  us  what  you  know  about  "Project  Democracy,"  the 

22  entity  that  Colonel  North  refers  to  here. 
A    Yes.   May  I  just  finish  reading  it? 

I  don't  recall  when  it  was  --  and  it  wps 
probably  sometim^  in-  '  8^.  ^^CcUuiftWi^^th  coined  the  name 


miftiMM 


1203 


iidtimiir 


209 


1  Project  Democracy,  mult  as  the  same  way  on  those  code 

2  sheets  he  called  it  pro3ect  something  else.   But  it  was 

3  his  shorthand  way  of  talking  about  the  network  that  had 

4  been  set  up  to  keep  the  contras  supported  through  this 

5  private  third-party,  third-country  logistics  arrangement. 

6  Q    Did  you  take  it  -- 

7  A    Go  ahead. 

8  Q    Go  ahead. 

9  A     I  was  going  to  say  it  didn't  have  any  other 

10  significance.   I  recognize  the  name  is  the  same  as,  or 

11  similar,  and  I  suppose  that's  where  he  came  up  with  the 

12  name,  but  it's  unrelated. 

13  The  President  made  a  speech  to  the  Parliament 

14  in  London  back  in  1982  or  1983  in  which  he  talked  about 

15  Project  Democracy  in  general  terms;  but  there  is  no  other 
IS  connection. 

17  Q    Did  you  ask  the  CIA  to  purchase  these  assets? 

18  A    I  can't  recall  whether  --  as  I  told  you  earlier, 

19  Colonel  North  wanted  me  to  talk  to  Director  casey.   My 

20  recollection  is  I  didn't  talk  to  Director  Casey.   I  think 

21  I  talked  to  Bob  Gates.   I  can't  recall  whether  I  asked  him 

22  to  purchase  them  or  not. 

23  _    My  best  recollection  is  that  I  simply  said  that 

24  these  assets  are  available  and  you  ought  to  look  at  them, 

25  or  something  to  that  effect.  |I|L|A|  AOOIflCH 


1204 


210 


1  Q    Were  you  aware  that  Colonel  North  was  keeping 

2  any  cash  in  his  office? 

3  A    Yes.   There  are  a  few  instances  of  that.   My 

4  best  recollection  is  the  first  time  I  became  aware  of  that 

5  was  back  shortly  af ter^^^^^^^^|agreed  to  provide  the 

6  $25  million. 

7  My  recollection  is  that  Colonel  North  told  me 

8  one  day  that  the  contra  leaders  had  made  some  of  that 

9  money  that  th«y  were  getting  fron|^^^^^^^^H available 

10  to  him  to  handle  miscellaneous  expenses  that  the  contras 

11  had  or  anticipated  in  Washington.   I  told  Colonel  North 

12  I  didn't  think  that  was  a  good  idea  and  that  he  should 

13  make  arrangements  to  return  the  funds,  and  I  prefer  that 

14  he  did  not  have  any  cash. 

15  At  some  point  after  that,  he  informed  me  that 

16  he  had  returned  the  funds  or  that  he  didn't  have  any  more 

17  cash.   I  recall  at  the  time  being  relieved  that  he  had 

18  gotten  rid  of  the  cash. 

19  Then  later  on,  in  relation  to  the  hostages  -- 

20  and  I  don't  remember  whether  it  was  the  DEA  project  or 

21  maybe  another  one  —  but  Mr.  Ross  Perot  had  indicated  to 

22  us  --  I  don't  think  to  me  directly,-  I  think  maybe  first 

23  to  Mr^  McFarlane  and  then  Colonel  North  got  in  the  practice 

24  of  often  communicating  with  Mr.  Perot  --  but  anyway, 
rot  indicated  that  if  we  ever  arrived  at  a  situation 


iiNnmnfft 


1205 


Mmm 


21: 


1 
2 
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5 

6 
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8 
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18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
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25 


where  we  needed  private  funds  on  the  hostage  situation, 
that  he  would  be  willing  to  provide  some. 

At  some  point,  you  know,  we  went  through  many, 
many  schemes  and  plans  trying  to  figure  out  a  way  to  get 
the  hostages  out,  and  in  one  of  those,  at  some  point,  my 
recollection  is  that  Colonel  North  did  have  some  of 
Mr.  Perot's  funds,  but  I  was  always  uneasy  about  directly 
handling  funds  and  tried  to  make  the  point  to  Colonel  North 
that  I  didn't  want  him  to. 

Q    Admiral,  do  you  have  any  recollection  of  being 
told  by  Colonel  North  about  the  purchases  by  the  Secord 
organization  of  the  ship  Erria,  E-r-r-i-a?   Did  he  tell 
you  they  had  bought  a  ship? 

A     I  think  I  knew  that  they  either  had  bought  or 
had  --  I  am  not  sure  if  "bought"  is  the  right  word.   I 
thought  they  ]ust  had  control,  either  charter  or  contract. 


1206 


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25 


I  must  say  that  Colonel  North's  view,  I  think, 
probably  --  in  fact,  I  did  talk  to  Director  Casey  about 
this  at  one  point.   Colonel  North  had  the  view  that  the 
Agency  was  not  treating  Dick  Secord  fairly. 

Q     Did  he  tell  you  that  they  felt  he  had  been 
associated  with  Clines  and  Wilson? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    And  that  as  a  result  of  that,  they  were  keeping 
an  arms-length  relationship  with  him? 

^    That's  correct. 

Q    And  that  he  wanted  you  to  tell  the  Agenpy  that 
he  had  performed  a  service  to  his  cour 


1207 


19 


21 


23 
24 
25 


MjmfflF 


213 


1  with  Iran  and  the  contras? 

2  A     I  don't  recall  the  contras,  but,  in  fact,  I  did 

3  have  a  conversation  with  Bill  Casey  and  I  can't  recall 

4  whether  it  was  that  specific  --  connected  with  that,  but 

5  I  did  have  a  conversation  with  him  that  I  thought  that  he 

6  had  people  at  the  Agency  that  wanted  to  keep  an  arms-length 

7  relationship  to  Dick  Secord  and  that  Dick  was  providing  a 

8  great  service  to  the  United  States  and  that  the  Wilson- 

9  Terpil  thing  had  been  investigated  and  gone  to  court  and 

10  the  charges  had  been  found  unsubstantiated  by  the  judge. 

11  As  I  recall,  Director  Casey  said,  "I  agree  with 

12  you;  Dick  Secord  is  a  great  patriot,"  or  something  like 

13  that. 

14  Q    You  were  aware  yourself  of  Secord ' s  background? 

15  A    Yes.   Well,  to  a  general  degree.   I  realize 

16  there  was  this  charge  and  that  judge  —  some  judge  had 

17  ruled,  dismissed  the  charges.   The  issue,  as  far  as  I  was 

18  concerned,  was  resolved  in  Dick's  favor. 


Q    I  will  try  now  to  get  us  nearly  to  the  end. 


20     I  know  everyone  is  weary. 


A    I  would  like  to  go  back  to  the  chronology  in 


22    a  moment . 


Q    Let  me  just  cover  up  a  —  clean  up  a  few  things. 
First,  you  mentioned  earlier  about  assistance 


f  romj 


UNClASSra 


1208 


WRmw 


214 


1 

2 

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24 


MR.  LIMAN:  Would  you  mark  as  the  next  exhibit 
a  memorandum  dated  December  4,  1984,  with  a  routing  slip 
which  shows  your  name  on  it. 

(Poindexter  Exhibit  No.  23  was 
marked  for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    When  you  spoke  of  assistance  from^^^^^^  is 
this  what  you  were  referring  to? 
A    That's  correct. 

Q    You  weren't  referring  to  anyone  asking 
:o  give  its  money  to  the  contras,  were  you? 
A    I  don't  honestly  know  what  General  Singlaub 
said  ^o^^^^^^^^^H  I  ^**   never  under  the 
that  they  were  willing  to  provide  funds.   I  recognize 
there  was  a  possibility  of  their  selling  arms. 

Q    Nhile  V   are  on  that  subject,  then,  let  me 
just  go  over  country  by  country  what  you  understood  their 
contribution,  if  anything,  was  to  the  contras  during  this 
period  when  you  were  wrestling  with  Boland. 
Israel? 
A    Israel  was  considered  several  times  and  from 
the  beginning,  when  Mr.  McFarlane  was  still  there,  but 
we  were  frankly  a  little  reluctant.   It  was  the  same  sort 
of  reasoning  that  the  Vice  President  was  conceri)ed  in 


UNCUd 


1209 


1 

2 

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5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

1V 

12 

13 

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18 

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20 

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22 

23 

24 

25 


Q    Do  you  know  whether  you  ever  sent  Teicher  there 
to  hit  them  up? 

A    I  don't  think  I  am  aware  of  that.   Mr.  McFarlane 
may  have.   He  was  --  he  also  was,  Mr.  McFarlane,  you  know, 
was  initially  very  concerned  about  leaks  and  that's  --  he 
handled^^^^^^^Hthing,  although  he  did  tell  me  about 
that  at  some  point  afterwards. 

Q    He  told  you  about  the  S25  million  contribution 
f r o m ^^^^^^^^^^B  a  m 

A     Right. 

Q    He  did  not  tell  you  in  the  summer  of  1984  that 
were  giving  a  million  dollars  a  month  or  7 


'^  '\l;.:^|S» . 

million  for  the  balance  of  '.9-0^^ -.^'s^. 

A  Well,  the  25  million  --  my  best  recollection  was 
being  delivered  over  a  period  of  time.  It  wasn't  just  one 
lump  sum. 

Q    Do  you  associate  the  S25  millionwi 


A    Since  November  of  '86,  I  have  not  associated 
It.   It  may  have  --   "" 

Q    You  talked  abou^^H^^^^^^^B  You  talked 
about  Israel. 

"a     I  want  to  come  back  to  Israel.   That's  related 
to  your  question  e a r  1  i e r^^^^^^^^^^^^^H I  thouc^ht  that's 


^MflPl  fia 


^^^^ 


1210 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

6 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

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24 

25 


ing   to  get  off  on  at  that  point. 


216 


~         When  do  you  date  that  about,  after  you  were  the 
National  Security  Adviser? 

A    Yes,  sometime  in  '86. 
Q    What  abov 

there  was  contact  there? 

«  ..,^<-  ♦■here    I  do  remember  getting 
A    There  was  contact  tnere. 

that,  and 


I  think  you  indicated  that 


rt  from  Colonel  North  at  some  point  after,  t^h. 

-  there  was  a  rather  long 


a  repo 

my  recollection'  is  th 


1211 


UflTViril 


21: 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19" 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


intervening  time  between  the  first  report  and  a  report  at 
some  point  later  that  they  had  agreed  to  provide  some  sum 
of  money  and  the  number  sticks  in  my  mind  as  a  few  million. 

Q    Did  you  know  Gaston  Stgur  had  been  involved  in 
speaking  to  them? 

A    Well,  Gaston,  of  course  --  you  know,  he  was  on 
the  NSC  staff.   Then  he  moved  over  to  the  State  Depart.-nent , 
to  be  assistant  secretary  of  State.   I  guess  --  well,  I 
can't  tell  now  whether  it's  ]ust  my  recollection  from 
today  or  not,  but  he  was  involved  in  the  meetings  with 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B  I  don't  before  today, 

reviewing  his  me.mos.   I  don't  think  I  would  have  said  that 
he  was  directly  involved  other  than  facilitating  the 
meetmcs  . 


1212 


UNCLASSIFIED 


NO^O-^  ^  *  *^      OkflAsJuuA    ^aXn    -"S^    •A>*^ik\i)Csa  , 


1213 


mmm 


219 


1214 


Mt^mgir 


220 


1 

2 

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25 


Q    Any  other  countries  that  you  can  think  of? 
A    Did  I  miss  anything? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Did  you  mentior 

THE  WITNESS:   There  was  the  incident  with 


BY  MR.  LI.MAN: 
Q    There  was  a  decision  not  to| 
A    That's  right. 

Q    That  you  discussed  with  the  DCI? 
A    That's  right. 

B  E  C  K  L  E  R  :^^^^^^^^ 
THE  WITNESS  :^^^^^Hwas  involved  in  Iran  but 
not  in  -- 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
0    Did^^^^^Kend  any  arms  to  the  contras? 
A    Who? 

Q  ^^^^^^^^^^Hsend  any  arms  to  the 

A    I  wouldn't  be  surprised  if  Secord  didn't  purchase 
some  arms  fror 

Q    I  don't  mean  purchase;  I  mean  give. 
A    Sent?   I  don't  know  for  sure  ^^^^^^^H  of 
course,  was 

Q    That  was  a  commercial  transaction? 


IINfil  ASSim 


1215 


nmf""™" 


hj:i.v 


1  A    That  was  a  commercial  transaction. 

2  Q    Just  for  the  record  again,  so  that  my  mind  is 

3  clear  on  it,  did  you  brief  the  President  about  the  fact 

4  that  the  NSC  was  playing  this  role  in  the  operations  of 

5  support  for  the  contre.s? 

6  A    I  can't  recall  a  specific  time  in  which  I  would 

7  have  addressed  that  directly.   Again,  to  put  that  in 

8  perspective,  the  NSC  involvement  in  the  support  of  the 

9  contras  started  back  in  '84  when  the  CIA  could  no  longer 
10    perform  that  function.   You  are  going  to  have  to  ask 

\\  Mr.  McFarlane,  if  you  haven't  already,  what  he  talked  to 

12  the  President  about. 

13  But  when  I  took  over  in  January  of  1986,  it  was 

14  an  ongoing  program  that  I  continued.   I  supported  it.   I 

•)5    supported  it  from  the  beginning.   But  I  don't  recall  having 
ic    a  conversation  with  the  President  that  I  could  cite  to  you 
now  that  would  indicate  that  the  President  understood  the 
breadth  of  what  the  NSC  staff  was  doing. 

Q    You  talked  about  the  — 

A    He  knew  we  were  keeping  very  close  track  of  it 
and  from  things  I  would  brief  him  on,  we  obviously  knew 
a  lot  of  things. 

Q    You  talked  to  him  about  the  airstrip?  We  have 
already  gone  over  that. 

A    Yes. 


UNCUSSIFIED 


1216 


222 


1  Q    You  talked  about  the  fact  that  when  the  CIA 

2  pulled  out,  the  NSC  had  to  take  on  this  role  of  supporting 

3  the  contras.   Was  there  a  discussion  and  a  decision  actually 

4  mad*  that  it  happen  that  way,  that  that  transition  should 

5  take  place? 

6  A    I  don't  recall  that. 

7  Q    What  I  am  getting  at  is  that  here  you  had  a 

6  cause  that  was  very  important  to  the  President  and  to  the 

9  administration,  the  contras.   Congress  comes  along  and 

10  pulls  the  props  out  of  the  support  that  they  were  then 

11  getting,  the  CIA  support.  Was  there  not  some  planning  done 

12  for  \^o  %rould  take  it  over  so  that  th«y  would  be  viable 

13  if  and  when  you  got  Congress  to  renew  the  appropriations? 

14  A    Well,  you  know  that  was  so  long  ago  when  that 

15  happened.  No  doubt,  we  did  have  discussions  on  it.   But 
10  without  going  back  through  the  schedule,  I  really  can't 
17  reconstruct  exactly  how  the  transition  occurred. 

10         Q    You  can't  recall,  as  X  understand  it,  any  meeting 

10  at  which,  for  example.  Director  Casey  said,  "We  are  out; 

20  it's  your  ball"? 

21  A    It  wasn't  —  I  don't  think  it  happened  that  way. 

22  Q    It  evolved? 

23  A    It  evolved. 

24  Q    It  was  just  —  there  was  a  vacuum,  an<3  'it  was 
filled? 


25 


JMSflEl 


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BttttWt[§T 


223 


A    That  would  be  in  my  opinion  a  better  description. 

Q     Indeed,  if  you  hadn't  filled  the  vacuum,  how 
would  they  have  been  able  to  continue? 

A    They  wouldn't  have  survived,  Mr.  Liman.   In  fact, 
as  I  said  earlier,  I  think  that  as  I  said,  the  cabinet 
officers.  Director  Casey,  in  particular,  although  he  and  I 
avoided  talking  about  the  subject  directly,  he  clearly 
understood  and  I  do  recall  an  oblique  comment  one  day  that 
the  contras  wouldn't  be  alive  today  without  Ollie  North, 
or  words  to  that  effect. 

Q     That  was  Casey.   Did  Clarridge  understand  that 
you  were  playing  this  role  at  the  N'SC? 

.3i    Dewey  Clarridge? 

Q    Yes. 

A    Again,  we  avoided  talking  about  it.   I  would  be 
very  surprised  if  he  didn't  understand  quite  a  bit. 

Q 

A    Probably. 

Q     Elliott  Abrams? 

A    Probably. 

Q    Secretary  of  State? 

A    Probably. 

Q    Secretary  of  Defense? 


.A  Probably. 


What  yo 


IHBSm 


me    is    that    if    you 


20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


1218 


224 

luuii  itiT 

1  didn't  want  to  know,  you'd  have  to  make  an  effort  not  to 

2  know? 

3  A    Yes. 

4  And  I  think  that  you  can  go  beyond  the  Executive 

5  Branch  on  that  as  well, 

6  Q    I'm  not  --  I  think  that  our  inquiry  is  not 

7  just  at  the  Executive  Branch.   It's  also,  sir,  at  the 

8  Legislative  Branch  as  well. 
g  MR.  LIMAN:   I  think  that's 

•JO  THE  WITNESS:   Could  I  go  back  to  the  -chronology? 

■J1  MR.  LIMAN:   I  promised  you  two  things.   One,  when 

^2  we  were  off  the  record  for  the  one  discussion  we  had  off 

■J3  the  record,  I  had  asked  you  about  why  there  wasn't  this 

14  pre-summit  meeting  before  the  Tehran  meeting.   Why  don't 

.jg  you  tell  us  on  the  record  what  you  told  me  off  the  record? 
.jg  THE  WITNESS:   Well,  remember,  I  was  concerned 

■ij  from  a  couple  of  --  well,  several  aspects.   One  was  that 

.^a  I  wanted  for  such  a  sensitive  meeting  that  had  long-range 

^n  Strategic  implications  for  the  United  States,  I  wanted  a 


more  experienced  person  there  than  Colonel  North.   I  was 
also  a  little  bit  concerned  that  we  didn't  want  to  wind  up 
with  another  hostage  situation  that  we  had  created.   We 
were  dealing  with  people  that  we  didn't  know  very  much 
about.   We  weren't  certain  what  their  motives  vere.   We 
were  trying  very  hard  _  to  _  f  ind-  tbaLt_.o.u^.^^  That  is,  of  course, 


)iiii)!iMFlYn 


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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


why  we  wanted  to  move  beyond  Ghorbanifar  and 

neither  one  we  thought  were  very  good  and  reliable  channels 

into  the  real  political  thinking  in  Iran. 

So  I  felt  that,  you  know,  sending  a  pre-advance 
or  advance  team  before  Mr.  McFarlane  went,  we  stood  the 
risk  of  getting  --  their  being  held  hostage  themselves. 
I  felt  a  higher  level  visitor,  it  would  be  much  more 
difficult  for  the  Israelis  or  the  Iranians  to  pull  some- 
thing like  that;  and,  you  know,  viewed  at  my  level,  the 
meeting  that  .Mr.  .McFarlane  had  out  there  was  a  preliniinary 
meeting.   If  eventually,  if  we  had,  if  it  had  not  been 
exposed  and  if  we  had  been  more  successful  --  by  the  way, 
I  think  when  it  did  end,  we  were  making  progress.   The 
Iranian  government  was  saying  things  that  they  had  not 
said  before;  and,  so,  by  and  large  I  viewed  Mr.  McFarlane's 
trip  out  there  as  the  preliminary  trip. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    Was  it  a  test  that  if  you  didn't  get  the  hostages 
back,  that  was  the  end? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Those  were  your  instructions? 

A    Those  were  my  instructions. 

Q    The  President's  instructions  as  well? 

A    That's  right. 

Q    Okay.   Now  you  wanted  to  sav  something  about  the 


1220 


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226 


1  chr.onologies? 

2  A    On  the  chronology,  it  is  important  again  for  me 

3  to  reiterate  that  the  chronology  was  never  intended  to  be 

4  a  public  document.   It  was  intended  to  represent  all  of 

5  the  facts  of  the  Iranian  project  less  the  contra  connection. 

6  It  went  through  several  drafts.   In  fact,  the  final  version 

7  that  has  whatever  markings  on  it  it  has,  I  never  considered 

8  the  final  version. 

9  The  discovery  of  the  contra  connection  occurred 

10  before  I  felt  that  we  had  a  finished  product.   I  knew  there 

11  were  errors  in  it.   I  frankly  --  you  know,  again  the  big 

12  problem  that  I  was  having  in  November  of  1986  was  trying 

13  to  reconstruct  exactly  what  had  happened  in  July,  August, 

14  September,  October,  and  November.   I  knew  what  was  on 

15  there  wasn't  accurate,  but  I  also  --  I  didn't  know  what 
1g  was  accurate  in  terms  of  everything  that  had  transpired; 
■)7  and  it  simply,  in  my  view,  when  we  left,  it  did  not 

1g  represent  a  finished  product. 

ig  I  had  very  little  time  during  that  hectic  period 

20  to  review  it;  and  Mr.  McFarlane,  when  he  had  called  me,  and 

21  I  think  it  was  probably  when  I  called  to  invite  him  to 

22  come  to  lunch  with  me  early  the  week  of  the  10th,  I  believe 
it  was,  because  I  wanted,  I  asked  Colonel  North  to  talk  to 
him,  but  "I  wanted  to  reiterate,  and  I  thought  he  oiSght  to 
prepare  a  memorandum  for  the  record . 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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227 


Dr.  Keel  attended  that  lunch.   At  that  point,  in 
the  telephone  call  with  Mr.  McFarlane,  he  said  that  he 
thought  that  the  Chief  of  Staff,  Don  Regan,  was  putting  out 
^    the  word  to  the  media  that  he.  Bud,  was  responsible  for 

5  the  whole  thing  and  trying  to  put  it  off  on  him.   I  told 

6  Bud,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge  that  was  not  true,  and 

7  that  I  did  not  think  Don  Regan  was  doing  that.   And  told 

8  him  that  I  certainly  wanted  to  lay  out  the  facts. 

9  Out  of  the  lunch  that  I  had  with  Bud,  he  did 

10  not  agree  and  also  did  not  disagree  to  produce  the  memo- 

11  randum  for  the  record.   But  as  a  matter  of  fact,  he  never 

12  did. 

13  And  so,  without  that  information,  we  really 

14  couldn't  get  all  of  the  facts  straight  for  that  first 

15  time  period. 

16  He  sent  me  some  drafts,  but  frankly,  I  didn't 

17  think  that  the  drafts  were  complete. 

13         Q    Are  you  aware  of  any  diversion  of  funds  from 

19  the  Defense  Department  for  the  contras? 

20  A    I'm  not  sure  what  you  would  be  referring  to. 

21  Q    Well,  I  am  asking  a  question.   Did  you  ever  hear 

22  of  Operation  Elephant  Herd? 

23  A    I  have  seen  it  in  thapress. 

24  Q    Were  you  ever  told  the  Defense  Department  was 
creating  any  kind  of  slush  fund  that  could  be  used  for  the 


25 


liMiy  Accincn 


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WKHmifliiilT 


228 


contras? 

A    I  don't  think  I  am  aware  of  that.   I  have  seen 
that  speculated,  but  .-- 

Q     I  am  not  interested  in  what  the  press  says. 

A    I  understand. 

Q    We  both  know  that  they  are  not  always  very 
accurate.   What  I  am  interested  in  is  what  you  know,  what 
you  heard  in  your  capacity  as  National  Security  Adviser 
before . 

Did  you  know  or  hear  that  the  Defense  Department 
was  diverting  either  any  funds  or  assets  to  the  contras? 

A    I  vaguely  recall  --  well,  it  goes  back  to  '84 
when  we  were  searching  for  ways  to  take  what  little  money 
we  had  and  make  it  go  as  far  as  possible.   I've  got  a 
vague  recollection  during  that  time  period  of  not  creating 
a  slush  fund  but  somehow  transferring  to  them  excess 
equipment  or  something  like  that. 

Q    Whose  decision  was  that,  do  you  recall? 

A    Mr.  Liman,  I  just  can't  remember  that. 

Q    Joint  Chiefs  of  Staff? 

A    I'm  sorry.   I  really  can't  remember.   I  just 
have  a  very  vague  recollection  of  that. 

Q  On  Secord,  I  want  to  ask  you  one  other  question. 
Did  you  know  he  was  at  the  London  meeting  in  1985  tihat  was 
attended  by  McFarlane? 


UNCIASSIHED 


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VNftil^lSBr 


229 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13' 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


A  I  am  pretty  sure  I  was  aware  of  that.  in  fact', 
he  may  have  provided  some  transportation.  I  can't  recall 
right  at  the  moment. 

Q    Actually,  Mr.  McFarlane  gave  him  a  list  back. 
So  it  went  the  other  way  around. 

A    Oh.   But  because  of  Secord  —  Secord  became 
involved  m  the  business  in^^^^^^^Hin  November  --  he, 
in  effect,  was  brought  in  at  that  time  on  the  Iranian 
project.   Secord  was  viewed  as  --  at  least  by  me  --  as  a 
very  effective  operator. 

Q     You  read  in  the  newspaper  --  and  I  won't  comment 
about  It  beyond  that  --  but  you  read  in  the  newspaper  about 
alleged  shredding  of  documents  by  Colonel  North. 

A    I  have . 

Q    And  alteration  of  documents  by  Colonel  North 
m  November  of  1986. 

Apart  from  what  you  have  told  us  as  to  what  you 
anticipated  with  respect  to  that  spiral  stenographer's 
notebook  that  he  kept,  did  you  have  any  knowledge  of 
shredding  of  documents  by  him? 

A    I  wasn't  even  certain,  Mr.  Liman,  that  he  shredded 
that  one.   What  I  was  telling  you  was  my  impression  that 
I  had _when  he  left  the  office. 

Q    And  you  have  no  knowledge  of  any  alteration 


of  documents  by  him? 


UNCI  hmm 


1224 


BUOU^flW 


230 


1  A  No.       I   do   not. 

2  MR.  LIMAN:   George,  I  have  no  more  questions. 

3  MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Let  me  just  say  what  I  would 

4  like  to  do  at  this  point,  Arthur  has  been  very  thorough. 

5  It  has  been  a  long  day.   I  would  like  to  take  a  two-minute 

5    recess  to  just  review  my  notes  and  satisfy  myself  we  haven't 
7    overlooked  something.   I  don't  intend  to  go  back  over  ground 
3    that  I  think  has  been  already  covered.   If  we  could  take  a 
g    brief  break,  I  would  like  to  do  that. 
•JO  (Recess.) 

EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF 
THE  HOUSE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 
BY  MR.  VAN  CLEVE: 
1^         Q    Let  me  just  start  off  by  saying  we  are  back 
^g    on  the  record.   I  appreciate  the  fact  you  have  been  here 

as  long  as  you  have  today.  Admiral.   Your  counsel  as  well. 
I  asked  for  the  recess  simply  because,  under  the  circum- 
stances, we  are  going  to  be  sealing  our  notes  and  sealing 
the  documents  and  sealing  the  transcript.   I  wanted  to  be 
sure  that  I  had  a  chance  to  review  the  material  and  go  over 
it. 

I  think  I  only  have  one  factual  question.   Before 
I  get  to  that,  let  me  just  say  this,  as  a  matter  of  routine, 
when  we  do  a  deposition  like  this,  the  House  likes  to 
reserve  its  right  to  speak  to  vou  at  a  later  time' 


\n. 


1225 


20 

21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


VNtl^tRffir 


231 


1  separately.   I  just  wanted  you  to  be  aware  of  that  sort  of 

2  standard  reservation. 

3  The  question  I  have  is  this:   Can  you  recall  at 

4  any  time  during  the  period  January  1,  1984,  to  the  present  - 

5  through  the  present  --  seeing  a  memorandum  to  the  President 

6  from  any  official  at  the  White  House  that  discussed  the 

7  diversion  of  funds  to  the  contras  from  any  source? 

8  MR.  BECKLER:   From  any  source? 

9  BY  MR.  VAN  CLEVE: 

10  Q    From  any  official  in  the  White  House  to  the 

11  President,  from  any  source. 

12  MR.  BECKLER:   The  diversion  from  any  source? 

13  MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   The  diversion  from  any  source 

14  to  the  contras? 

15  MR.  BECKLER:   I  am  sorry. 

16  MR.  SMALL:   You  mean  Iran  — 

17  MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   No.   I  will  be  happy  to  repeat 

18  the  question. 

19  BY  MR.  VAN  CLEVE: 
Q    Can  you  recall  during  the  period  of  January  1, 

1984,  to  the  present  seeing  a  memorandum  to  the  President 
from  any  official  at  the  White  House  which  discussed  the 
diversion  of  funds  from  any  source  to  the  contras? 

A    Well,  let  me  try  to  go  through  my  memojry.   As 
I  said,  I  don't  think  there  was  anything  that  I  have  ever 


riMPi  Acoitirn 


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MMiiT 


232 


1  seen,  at  least  that  I  can  recall,  to  the  President  about 

2  the  Iranian  transfer. 

3  In  fact,  my  recollection  was,  at  least  in 

4  November  of  '86,  that  there  wasn't  anything  that  existed. 

5  I  was  surprised  to  see  the  memo  that  was  made  up  and  that 

6  Ed  Meese's  people  found  in  Colonel  North's  safe.   That  did 

7  not  go  to  the  President,  certainly;  and  I  don't  know  of 

8  anything  else  on  the  Iranian  project  related  to  the  transfer 

9  of  funds  to  the  contras  that  went  to  the  President. 

10  Diversions  from  other  sources? 

11  MR.  SMALL:   Do  you  have  anything  in  mind? 

12  BY  MR.  VAN  CLEVE: 

13  Q    As  an  example,  we  were  discussing  just  before 

14  we  recessed,  the  possibility  of  the  Department  of  Defense 

15  assets  had  been  diverted  to  the  contras. 

15         A    To  the  best  of  my  recollection,  I  don't  know 
17    of  anything  else.   I  suppose  it's  conceivable  there's 
■J8    something  else  that  I  may  have  seen  and  forgotten.   I  am 

19  not  trying  to  play  games  with  you.   I  simply  don't  recall 

20  it. 

21  Q    Okay . 
MR.  BECKLER:   Would  this,  for  example,  include 

the  President  having  some  knowledge  perhaps  that  the 
Secretary  of  state  or  his  representatives  met  with  Brunei? 
MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Sure.   A  memorandum  to  the 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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imsaeit' 


233 


coresident  that  described  an  effort  to  obtain  funds. 

MR.  LIMAN:   He's  not  talking  about  oral  knowledge, 
He's  talking  about  documents. 

THE  WITNESS:   Something  in  writing? 

BY  MR.  VAN  CLEVE: 
Q     A  document. 

A    There  may  have  been  something  to  the  President 
that  I  have  forgotten  that  addressed  our  effort  in  early 
1986  to  identify  third  countries.   I  think,  as  I  testified 
earlier,  I  have  a  recollection  that  Secretary  Shultz,  in 
one  of  his  weekly  meetings  with  the  President  m  early  '86, 
which  I  attended,  said  something  to  the  President  about 
looking  for  third-country  support.   There  conceivably  -- 
that  could  be  in  my  file  of  notes  about,  that  I  kept  on 
Secretary  Shultz'  meeting  with  the  President  which  I  don't 
have.   They  are  somewhere  in  the  White  House,  I  guess. 

That  was  --  the  reason  that  didn't  jog  ;r.y  memory 
was  the  way  the  question  was  asked.   I  wouldn't  consider 
that  diversion.   That  was  third-country  sources  of 
funding. 

You  know,  if  you  intend  to  broaden  the  question 
to  include  third-country  resources,  there  may  have  been 
something  in  writing  about^^^^^^^^H  back  early  when 
their  'contribution  started.   Those  are  the  only  things  I 


can  think  of, 


ONCUSSIFIED 


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AMjm  juvpurirn.. 


234 


1  MR.  VAN  CLFVE:   I  appreciate  it. 

2  Do  you  have  anything  else? 

3  MR.  LIMAN:   Nothing  else. 

4  Thank  you  very  much.   It  was  a  much  longer  day 

5  than  we  all  expected. 
MR.  VAN  CLEVE:   Thank  you. 

7  MR.  BECKLER:   I  appreciate  the  courtesy  of  both 

8  of  you. 

9  (Whereupon,  at  5:35  p.m.,  the  deposition  was 
10  concluded. ) 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


iiNni  h^m^i\ 


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Stenographic  Transcript  of  ^^ 


HEARINGS 
Before  the 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  ON  SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE 
TO  IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAGUAN  OPPOSITION 


UNITED  STATES  SENATE 


DEPOSITION  CF  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTE?.  -  Continued 
Wednesday,  June  IT,  1987 


UNCLASSIHED 

Washington.  D.C. 


OR 


1230 


UNCUiSSIflED 


235 


1  DEPOSITION  OF  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER  -  Continued 

2  W«dn«sday,  Juna  17,  1987 

3  United  States  Sanat* 

4  S«l«ct  Coamitta*  on  Sacrat 

5  Military  Aasiatanca  to  Iran 

6  and  tha  Nicaraguan  Opposition 

7  Washington,  D.  C. 

8  Continued  deposition  of  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER, 

9  called  as  a  witness  by  counsel  for  the  Select  Comnittee, 

10  at  the  offices  of  the  Select  Comaittee,  Room  SH-901,  Hart 

11  Senate  Office  Building,  Washington,  D.  C,  commencing  at 

12  10:14  a.m.,  the  witness  having  been  duly  sworn,  and  t.^e 

13  testimony  being  taken  down  by  Stenomask  by  MICHAL  ANN 

14  SCHAFER  and  transcribed  under  her  direction. 
15 


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25 


UNCLASSIFIED 


236 


1  APPEAPANCES: 

2  On  b«hal£  of  th«  S«nat«  Select  Comaitta*  on  S«cr«t 

3  Military  Asslstanc*  to  Iran  and  th«  Nicaraguan 

4  Opposition: 

5  THE  HONORABLE  WARREN  RUDMAN 

6  ARTHUR  LIMAN,  ESQ. 

7  Chief  Counsal 

8  JAMES  E.  KAPLAN,  ESQ. 

9  Associate  Counsel 

10  On  behalf  of  the  House  Select  Committee  to 

11  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran: 

12  THE  HONORABLE  THOMAS  FOLEV 

13  THE  HONORABLE  HENRY  HYDE 

14  NEAL  EGGLESTON,  ESQ. 

15  RICHARD  J.  LEON,  ESQ. 

16  Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel 

17  HEATHER  FOLEY,  ESQ. 

18  Executive  Assistant  to  the  Majority  Leader 

19  On  behalf  of  the  witness: 

20  RICHARD  W.  BECKLER,  ESQ. 

21  JOSEPH  T.  SMALL,  JR.,  ESQ. 

22  Fulbright  (  Jaworslci. 

23  1150  Connecticut  Avenue,  N.W. 

24  Washington,  D.  C.   20036 


m 


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msMB 


X 
2 

3 

, 

C 

0  N  T 

E  N  T  S 

EXAMINATION 

ON  BE> 

4 

5 

WITNESS 

SENATE 

6 

7 

John  M.  Polndcxtar 

8 

9 

By  Mr. 

Linan 

239 

10 

By  Mr. 

L«on 

11 

By  Mr. 

Liman 

300 

12 

By  Mr. 

L«on 

13 

By  Mr. 

Liman 

301 

14 

By  Mr. 

L«on 

15 

By  Mr. 

Linan 

303 

16 

By  Mr. 

Laon 

17 

By  Mr. 

Linan 

323 

IB 

By  Mr. 

Laon 

19 

By  Mr. 

Liman 

363 

20 

21 

E 

X  H  I 

BITS 

22 

23 

POINDEXTER  EXHIBIT 

NUMBER 

FOR 

CDENTI] 

24 

25 

24 

248 

26 

25 

263 

27 

26 

282 

28 

27 

286 

29 

28 

287 

30 

29 

287 

31 

30 

292 

32 

31 

293 

33 

32 

303 

34 

33 

310 

35 

34 

338 

36 

35 

351 

37 

36 

360 

38 

39 

40 

237 

aF  OF 
HOUSE 

296 
301 
302 
323 

363 


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1  PROCEEDINGS 

2  MR.  LIMAN:   This  is  a  joint  sxccutiv*  session 

3  of  both  th«  Hous«  Salsct  Conunitts*  and  th«  Sanat*  Salact 

4  Comaittaa,  and  thara  ara  two  Manbars  of  tha  Housa 

5  Connittaa  prasant  and  ona  Mambar  of  tha  Sanata  Coaunittee, 

6  as  providad  by  our  quorum  rulas,  and  I  think  tha  oath 

7  should  now  ba  adninistarad. 

8  MR.  BECKLER:   Sounds  good. 

9  REPRESENTATIVE  FOLEY:   Do  you  solemnly  swear 

10  that  tha  evidence  that  you  are  about  to  give  in  these 

11  proceedings  shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and 

12  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

13  ADMIRAL  POINDEXTER:   Yes. 

14  SENATOR  RUDMAN:   Admiral  Poindaxter,  why  don't 

15  you  proceed?   I  just  want  to  confirm  that  this  deposition 

16  will  proceed  under  the  same  grant  of  limited  immunity 

17  that  was  procured  by  the  United  States  Senate  from  the 

18  Federal  District  Court  here  in  the  District  of  Washington 

19  and  under  tha  same  circumstances  that  tha  previous 

20  deposition  which  wa  attended  here  some  weeks  ago;  is  that 

21  clear? 

22  THE  WITNESS:   That  is  clear. 

23  -        SENATOR  RUDMAN:   And  I  believe  that  the  House 

24  will  now  notify  you  on  their  behalf  that  it's  the  same 

25  grant. 


iiNrjA<:RinFn 


1234 


239 

1  REPRESENTATIVE  FOLEY:   V«s.   In  accordanca 

2  with  th«  statamant  of  Sanator  Rudman,  wa  advisa  you  that 

3  th«  tastiaony  you  arc  to  giva  In  this  daposition  is  undar 

4  tha  Sana  grant  ot   immunity  praviously  grantad  by  tha 

5  Unitad  Statas  Court  in  tha  District  of  Columbia. 

6  SENATOR  RUOMAN:  And  Raprasantativa  Hyda  is 

7  raprasanting  tha  Minority  and  I  baliava  ha  affirms. 

8  REPRESENTATIVE  HYDE:   I  associata  mysalf  with 

9  tha  ramarks  of  Mr.  Folay  and  Sanator  Rudman. 

10  MR.  BECKLER:   And  ara  thara  subpoanas,  too? 

11  MR.  LIMAM:   Yas,  wa  hava  subpoanas. 

12  Wharaupon, 

13  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER, 

14  callad  as  a  witnass  by  counsal  on  bahalf  of  tha  Sanata 

15  Salact  Committaa  and  having  baan  duly  sworn,  was  further 

16  axaminad  and  tastifiad  as  follows: 

17  EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF  THE  SENATE  COMMITTEE  -  Resunied 

18  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

19  Q    Admiral,  I  want  to  begin  by  asking  you  about 

20  soma  avanta  on  Novambar  25,  1986,  which  is  tha  data  that 

21  you  rasignad  and  tha  day  that  Clivar  North  was  firad. 

22  Did  you  maat  that  morning  with  tha  Prasidant? 

23  A    I  did. 

24  *   Q    With  tha  Vica  Prasidant? 

25  A    Ha  was  thara. 


nMf!^«<cinpn 


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240 


Q    Who  ttls*  was  thara? 
A    Don  Ragan  and  Ed  Maasa. 
Q    Was  Mr.  Casay  thara? 
A    No. 

MR.  BECKL£R:   Ona  quastion.   Ara  wa  going  to 

6  hava  this  transcript  fairly  soon,  bacausa  that's  going  to 

7  dictata  how  axtansiva  notas  I  try  to  taka  now. 

8  MR.  LIMAN:   Taka  notes. 

9  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

10  Q    Did  Colonel  North  join  the  meeting  at  all? 

11  A    No,  he  did  not. 

12  Q    Did  you  discuss  at  that  meeting  the  fact  that 

13  you  would  be  resigning? 

14  A    Yes,  although  I  wouldn't  have  really  called  it 

15  discussion. 

16  Q    Tell  us  what  happened  at  the  meeting. 

17  A    It  was  my  regular  9:30  morning  meeting  with 

18  th«  President,  and  I  came  in  and  told  him  that  I  was" 

19  certain  that  the  Attorney  General  had  told  him  about  his 

20  conversation  with  Colonel  North  on  Sunday  and  the  memo 

21  that  they  had  found,  and  I  told  the  President  that  I  was 

22  aware  of  the  transfer  of  funds  to  the  centres  and  that  I 

23  thought  it  was  best  that  I  resign  to  give  him  as  much 

24  latitude  as  possible.   And  he  said  that  he  regretted  it 

25  and  said  something  to  the  effect  that  it  was  in"  the 


5«aim  firOOincn 


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1  tradition  of  i   captain  accepting  rasponsibility. 

2  And  I  stood  up  to  l«av«,  shook  hands  with 

3  •vtrybody.   Everybody  said  nic«  words.   And  I  laft  th« 

4  office.   I  was  only  th«r«  about  fiv«  minutes. 

5  Q    Did  you  know  at  that  tls*  that  Oliver  Korth 

6  was  going  to  b«  firad? 

7  AX  did  not.   In  fact,  that  was  not  my 

8  understanding  at  all. 

9  Q    Vour  understanding  was  that  Oliver  North  was 

10  going  to  be  prepared  to  resign;  am  I  correct : 

11  A    That  he  would  simply  be  transferred  back  to 

12  the  Defense  Department. 

13  Q    Had  he  already  sent  you  a  notice  requesting 

14  the  transfer? 

15  A    I'm  not  certain  of  that. 

16  Q    But  had  you  discussed  that  with  him? 

17  A    Let  me  think  a  minute. 

18  (Counsel  conferring  with  the  witness.) 

19  As  I  recall,  the  Attorney  General  called  me  in 

20  the  car  on  my  way  in  to  the  office  just  about  the  time  we 

21  were  to  go  through  the  southwest  gate,  and  he  asked  me  if 

22  I  could  meet  him  at  his  office  and  I  said  fine.   He  said 

23  why  don't  you  just  go  right  over  and  I'll  be  there  in  a 

24  few  minutes.   I  did  that.  , 

25  And  then  when  I  got  back  to  the  white  House  I 


ii^A^iFie 


1237 


242 

walk«d  down  th«  corridor  to  s««  Don  R«gan.   h«  was  in  a 
iB««ting,  and  I  l«ft  word  with  hi»  ••cr«tary  I'd  lika  to 
s««  him  wh«n  h«  finishad.   And  I  walk«d  back  to  ny  office 
and  sat  down  to  aat  my  braakfast.   And  Don  Regan  came  in 
and  then  I  think  shortly  after  that  —  that  would  have 
been  about  8:00  or  8:30  or  something  like  that  —  l  thin>: 
I  probably  called  Colonel  North  and  told  him  that  I  was 

8  going  to  resign  and  that  he  should  be  transferred  back  to 

9  the  Defense  Department. 

10  I  asked  him  what  he  wanted  to  do,  as  I  recall, 

11  and  I  can't  recall  whether  he  answered  me  or  not.   Sue 

12  either  in  that  conversation  or  some  previous  conversaticr. 

13  at  least  the  impression  X  hade  at  this  point  was  that  he 

14  wanted  to  go  to  the  National  Defense  University 

15  essentially  for  a  year's  sabbatical. 

16  And  the  reason  that  X  said  X  was  unaware  when 

17  I  left  the  9:30  meeting  that  he  was  going  to  be  fired,  -y 

18  impression  from  talking  to  Ed  Meese  was  --  and  I  can't 

19  remember  his  exact  words,  but  my  impreission  was  simply 

20  that  Ollie  should  be  transferred  back  to  the  Defense 

21  Department. 

22  Q    And  that  was  in  conversation  with  the  Attorney 

23  General  that  took  place  when  that  gave  you  that 

24  impression? 

25  A    In  h4i^J^e.al;^u£j'^3a»ia  the  moi'ning  on  t.'-.e 


limmil^irii 


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X  25th.   And  th«  first  I  knew  that  Ollia's  departure  was  to 

2  b«  characterized  as  firing  was  when  I  heard  the  press 

3  conference. 

4  Q    And  had  you  had  any  conversations  with  Oliver 

5  North  from  November  21  through  November  25  in  which 

6  Oliver  North  had  expressed  to  you  the  view  that  he  was 

7  prepared  to  take  the  responsibility  for  what  happened? 

8  AX  can't  be  certain  of  that  time  period. 
9.  Q         Well,  broaden  the  time  period. 

10  A    Broaden  the  time  period  a  great  deal,  maybe 

11  for  a  year  or  more.   Periodically  Ollie  would  indicate 

12  that  he  was  "willing  to  take  the  rap",  and  I  always  told 

13  him  when  he  said  that  that  was  a  ridiculous  position  and 

14  that  he  had  no  need  to  say  that. 

15  Q    What  did  you  mean  by  that? 

16  A    Well,  that,  number  one,  you  see,  I  had  never 

17  felt  that  we  were  doing  anything  illegal.   I  still  don't. 

18  It's  controversial.   It's  a  political  issue,  and  I  think 

19  with  hindsight  Ollie  was  thinking  about  it  in  the  same 

20  terms,  that  it  was  a  political  issue  and  he  may  at  some 

21  point  become  a  political  burden. 

22  But  I've  been  around  Washington  enough  to  know 

23  that  that  sort  of  thing  is  just  not  possible,  that  if 

24  there  was  a  leak  and  if  the  operations  were  exposed  that 

25  they  would  be  a  big  political  issue.   It  would  b^  very 


i'LAvJO! 


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controvarsial  and  th«r«  was  no  way  that  Olli*  should  or 
could  accept  responsibility  for  all  of  our  operations  in 
support  of  the  President's  policy. 

Q    Now  What  operations  were  you  referring  to? 

A    The  support  of  the  democratic  resistance  in 

6  Nicaragua  and  the  Iranian  project.   We  knew  the  Iranian 

7  project  would  be  controversial  from  the  very  first 

8  discussion  I  can  recall  with  the  President  on  the  7th  of 

9  December. 

10  Q    Did  North  use  words  like  "scapegoat",  that  he 

11  would  be  a  scapegoat? 

12  A    I  don't  ever  recall  that  term. 

13  Q    Now  you've  probably  heard  in  the  testimony  t.'-.e 

14  people  quoting  hin  as  saying  that  that  was  his  role? 

15  A    I  can't  honestly  say  I  recall  that  word  being 

16  used,  but  I  do  recall  that  in  testimony  coming  up. 

17  Q    Did  North  call  you  after  the  Attorney  General 

18  announced  that  he  had  been  fired? 

19  A    I  think  he  probably  did.   I  don't  have  a  good 

20  recollection  of  —  well,  X  do  remember  one  thing  that  was 

21  said,  and  I  can't  remember  —  it  was  sometime  on  the  25th 

22  he  called  and  indicated  that  Dick  Secord  wanted  to  call 

23  me"  or  would  be  calling  me  or  something  like  that,  but  I 

24  don't  recall  any  comment  from  him  at  the  time  in  the  vein 

25  of  objecting  to,  vt}4WV'iu^l^t^rfy,^^ral  had  kaid. 


^ir^frnwrtTifn' 


1240 


UN6U$«D 


24S 


1  Q    Did  h«  t«ll  you  that  th«  Pr«sid«nt  had  called 

2  him? 

3  A    No,  I  don't  b«li«v«  so.   My  r«coll«ction  is 

4  that  his  call  to  m«  was  •arllsr  in  ths  dAy,  possibly 

5  right  aftsr  th«  prass  con£«r«nc«. 

6  Q    Did  th«  Prssidant  call  you  aftsr  th«  prass 

7  confaranca? 

8  A    No,  ha  did  not.   Tha  last  tima  X  spoka  to  tha 

9  Prasidant  was  in  that  9:30  maating. 

10  Q    Has  ha  writtan  to  you? 

11  A    Wall,  yas,  ha  has.   He  vrota  ma  a  lattar  on  — 

12  was  it  datad  Dacambar  3  — 

13  MR.  BECKLER:   Somawhera  around  that,  tha 

14  actual  last  day. 

15  THE  WITNESS:   I  think  it's  in  tha  boxas  of 

16  documants  that  ara  ovar  in  tha  law  firm.   Did  you  sae  it? 

17  MR.  LEON:   I  racall  saaing  it. 

18  MR.  EGGLESTON:   I  think  it  is  Dacambar  3." 

19  MR.  BECXLER:   It's  not  substantiva. 

20  THE  WITNESS:   Vou  know,  it's  a  dapartura 

21  lattar,  what  w«  call  a  dapartura  lattar. 

22  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuffling) 

2  3  Q    Do  you  know  whathar  North  spoka  to  Maasa  on 

2  4  tha" 2 5th?  I  can't  confirm  that.   I  don't  knqw  that. 

2  5  MR.  BECKLER:   You  don't  know  ona  way,  or  the 


1241 


14 


UNMIFIED 


1  other? 

2  THE  WITNESS:   That's  right. 

3  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

4  Q    You'v*  testified  that  you  did  not  believe  that 

5  what  you  and  Colonel  North  were  doing  in  these  different 

6  operations  were  unlawful.  That's  what  I  understand  your 

7  position  to  be. 

8  A    That's  correct. 

9  Q    Both  this  morning  and  yesterday.   Did  you  ever 

10  receive  any  kind  of  memos  or  other  documents  discussing 

11  whether  the  NSC  was  free  to  solicit  funds  from  third 

12  countries  during  the  period  of  the  absolute  Boland 

13  prohibition? 
A    It  is  conceivable.   It  doesn't  jump  right  out 


Q    Well,  let  me  see  what  you  do  recall,  and  for  a 


15  at  me. 
16 

17  time  frame  let  me  just  state  certain  facts,  that  in 

18  October  of  1984  the  full  prohibition  of  Boland  was 

19  adopted,  first  in  the  continuing  resolution  on  the 

20  appropriations,  then  in  the  Intelligence  Authorization 

21  Act.   In  August  of  198S  an  amendment  was  adopted  which 

22  permitted  exchanges  of  intelligence,  and  then  in  December 

23  oC  1985  the  provision  came  in  that  permitted  the 

24  solicitation  of  third  country  funding  and  also  during 

25  that  period  you  had  the  adoption  of  the  $27  million 


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1  humanitarian  aid  provisions. 

2  Now  I  want  to  talk  about  that  period  from  the 

3  fall  of  1984,  whan  th«  Boland  an«ndm«nt  was  adoptad, 

A  until  th«  provision  cam*  in  that  authorized  third  country 

5  solicitation  for  humanitarian  aid  by  th*  Stat* 

6  D*partm*nt.   Did  you  participat*  in  th*  discussions  of 

7  Isgislativ*  strategy  that  lad  to  s**king  from  Congrass 

8  p*mission  for  th*  solicitation  of  humanitarian  aid? 

9  A    I  concaivably  could  hav*  participated  in 

10  convarsations,  although  that  was  not  my  major  araa  of 

11  responsibility  during  that  time  period.   As  I  think  I've 

12  testified  before,  Mr.  McFarlane,  with  his  experience  on 

13  the  Hill  and  also  because  he  was  the  National  Security 

14  Advisor,  took  the  responsibility  in  our  front  office  for 

15  legislative  action  and  relations  with  the  Congress. 

16  And  one  of  the  other  deputies,  Mr.  Fortier  — 

17  see  I  was  the  principal  deputy  at  the  time,  and  there 

18  were  soma  other  deputies.   Mr.  Fortier,  who  had  been' on 

19  th*  House  Foreign  Affairs  Committee  staff,  did  most  of 

20  the  staff  work  for  Mr.  McFarlane  on  legislative  strategy, 

21  so  I  was  probably  in  rooms  during  discussions  of  the 

22  issues  but  I  really  didn't  contribute  very  much  and 

23  didn't  really  get  involved  in  the  action. 

24  *  Q    Can  wa  mark  as  the  next  Exhibit,  Ejchibit  24,  a 

25  document  addressed  to  Mr.  McFarlane  by  that  famfaus  author 

iiNf^minrn 


1243 


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248 


1  Oliver  North,  dated  January  15,  1985.   Th«  cov«r  pag« 

2  indicates  that  Mr.  Poind«xt«r,  Admiral  Poind«xt«r  was 

3  copied  on  it. 

4  (The  document  referred  to  was 

5  marked  Poindexter  Exhibit 

6  Number  24  for  identification.) 

7  Admiral,  let  me  give  you  — 

8  MR.  BECKLER:   Let  us  take  a  look  at  it  for  a 

9  moment,  Arthur,  please. 

10  (Pause.) 

11  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resur.ing) 

12  Q    First,  do  you  recall  whether  you  read  this 

13  document? 

14  A    I've  got  to  read  it. 

15  MR.  BECKLER:   Let  the  record  reflect  this  is 

16  about  a  ten-page  document  we're  seeing  for  the  first  tir.e 

17  "  here  --  well,  not  ten. 

18  MR.  LIMAN:   It  doesn't  matter.   It's  not  a 

19  one-page  document. 

20  MR,  BECKLER:   A  multi-page  document. 

21  (Pause.) 

22  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

23  Q    Have  you  looked  at  it?  Do  you  recall  whether 

24  you  saw  it?  ; 

25  A    I  don't  recall  whether  I've  seen  itf.   In  fact, 


\m\  mm^ 


1244 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
IS 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


UNCUSSIFIED 


249 


my  guess  would'  b*  that  I  probably  didn't  s««  it,  avan 
though  it  says  I  did. 

MR.  BECKLER:   You  didn't  raad  it? 
THE  WITNESS:   I  probably  didn't  avan  aaa  it. 
But  anyway  what  it  is,  obviously  it  was  in  a  notaboo)c. 
Saa,  this  was  tha  beginning  of  tha  yaar,  I  guass,  after 
the  Boland  Amendment  passed,  and  as  I  recall  Colonel 
North  had  convinced  Mr.  McFarlana  that  ha  ought  to  make  a 
trip  down  through  Central  America,  and  this  was  the 
background  paper  which  was  no  doubt  included  in  a 
notebook  with  probably  other  tabs. 

And  the  chances  are,  because  it  was  not  really 
an  action  document,  it  probably,  tha  notebook  probably 
went  directly  in  to  Mr.  McFarlana.   I  probably  got  a  copy 
and  I  may  or  may  not  have  read  it.   I  don't  recall 
reading  it. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

Q    Well,  if  you  look  at  page  three  — 

A    Numbered  three? 

Q    Tha  page  numbered  three,  at  tha  top  Colonel 
North  wrote: 


"The  resistance"  refers  to  the  centres, •  you  are  aware  oi 
iR»ail  f:l  L^i^j^  i  ■■''' 


m 


1245 


2S0 


8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


^^^^^^^^^  And  th«n  h«  vftm  to  six 

basic  options. 

which  h*  puts  a  parentheses,  Tab  T,   and  the  first  on* 

says  I 


Do  you  see  that? 

A    Ves. 

Q    If  the  understanding  at  the  NSC  was  that 
Boland  didn't  prohibit  obtaining  third  country  support, 
do  you  Icnow  why  Oliver  North  was  discussing  with 
McFarlan*  obtaining  new  legislation  to  authorize  as  such 
third  country  support? 

A    I  don't  know  what  Colonel  North  was  thinking 
about  when  he  wrote  that. 

Q    And  he  also,  as  you  go  down,  the  fourth  option 

H^^^I^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  Do  you 
any -discussions  about  the  fact  that  the  NSC  should  not  be 
soliciting  funds  for  the  contras? 

A    Mr.  McFarlane  was  very  sensitive  abbut  the 


1246 


UNCLASSIFIED 


251 


issue.   The  sensitivity,  as  I  understood  it,  was  that  he 
f«lt  the  same  way  I  did,  that  the  more  people  that  knew 
about  something  the  more  likely  it  was  to  leak  out,  and 
es^cially  in  the  case 


8 

9  So  Mr.  McFarlane's  sensitivity,  as  I 

10  understood  it,  was  about  a  wholesale  effort  to  identify 

11  third  countries  to  provide  contributions  unless  it  was  a 

12  procedure  that  was  agreed  to  by  all  concerned. 

13  Q    Who  is  "all  concerned"? 

14  A    I  think  including  the  Congress.   I  think,  you 

15  know,  he  recognized  that  Congress  wouldn't  like  it,  the 

16  opponents  of  the  program  in  Congress  wouldn't  like  it. 

17  Q    Well,  Admiral,  did  you  listen  to  McFarlane's 

18  testimony? 

19  A    I  did. 

20  Q    Do  you  recall  McFarlane  testifying  that  he 

21  stated  on  more  than  one  occasion  at  staff  meetings  of  the 

22  NSC  that  the  NSC  should  not  solicit,  coerce,  encourage, 

23  or  broker  contributions  for  the  contras? 

24  *   A    I  don't  have  any  recollection  of  ^hat. 

25  Q    Well,  that's  his  testimony.        !; 


1247 


MUiSSlFe 


252 


A    I  know.   I  h««rd  hin  tastiCy  to  that. 

Q    But  do  you  r«call  him?  I'll  g«t  it,  Mr. 
B«ckl«r.   Do  you  racall  him  aver  saying  that  at  tha  NSC 
staff  aaatings? 

A    I  don't  racall  his  saying  that,  that  doasn't 
n«an  h*  didn't  do  it.   I  just  simply  don't  rscall  it. 

Q    Now  you  attandad,  as  his  Osputy,  staff 

8  mastings  with  tha  Prasidant,  briafings  with  tha 

9  Prasidant? 

10  A    Yas,  in  ganaral  that's  trua.   v 

11  Q    Was  thara  any  discussion  in  your  prasanca  with 

12  tha  Prasidant  about  whathar  third  party  solicitations, 

13  third  country  solicitations  wara  appropriata  during  tha 

14  pariod  that  you  wara  Oaputy? 

15  A    I  can't.   I'va  triad  to  think  about  it  and 

16  racall.   I  can't  racall  a  spacific  incidant. 

17  Q    Did  you  avar  haar  tha  Prasidant  discuss  tha 
^^^^^■contribution? 

19  A    I  can't  racall  that,  although  I  fait  that  ha 

20  was  awara  of  it. 

21  Q    Wall,  whan  you  said  you  fait  ha  was  awara  of 

22  it,  why? 

23  -   A    Bacausa  I  thinJc,  as  I  racall,  Mr.  McFarlana 

24  told  ma  that  ha  had  told  tha  Prasidant. 

25  Q    But  Mr.  McFarlana  navar  told  tha  Prasidant  in 


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253 


1  your  pr«s«nc«,  correct,  so  far  as  you  rscall? 

2  A    As  far  as  I  recall,  I  can't  raraamber  it.   So 

3  his  explanation  in  his  testimony  that  he  included  it  as  a 

4  not*  in  the  9:30  briefing  folder  seems  logical. 

5  Q    Is  there  any  reason  that  you  can  think  of, 

6  having  held  the  position  of  National  Security  Advisor, 

7  why  Mr.  McFarlane  would  not  tell  ths  President  that^^^H 
^^^^^Hhad  contributed? 

9  A    I  don't  see  any  reason  why  he  wouldn't.   I  can 

10  understand  why  he  did  it  by  note,  though. 

11  Q    Would  you  consider  i-  to  be  a  possibly 

12  embarrassing  thing  from  a  political  point  of  viewifthe 

13  President  had  to  acknowledge  that  he  knew  of  *^^^^^^^l 

14  contribution? 

15  A    I  don't  -- 

16  (Counsel  conferring  with  the  witness.) 

17  MR.  BECKLER:   Repeat  the  question,  Art.hur. 
la  Vou'v«  got  a  lot  of  negatives  in  there  --  would  it  be 

19  possible,  if  not. 

20  MR.  LIMAN:   Mr.  Beckler,  w*  don't  have  to  have 

21  speeches. 

22  BY  MR.  LIMAK:   (Resuming) 

23  Q    Vou'v*  already  indicated  th^  fth^re^  we're  some 

24  thi-ngs  that  you  didn't  tell  the  President  because  you 

25  wanted  to  spare  him  potential  embarrassment  if;; it  came 


UNeiiSSIFlEO 


1249 


Mmms 


2S4 


1  out;    correct? 

2  A    That's  correct. 

3  Q    And  you  wanted  to  giv«  him  d«ni«bility;  Is 

4  that  right? 

5  A    That's  correct. 

C  Q    Kov  do  you  think  that  It  would  have  baan 

7  ambarrassing  to  tha  Prasidant  of  tha  Unitad  statas  it   it 

S  cana  out  that  ha  knaw  that^^^^^^^^^had  contributed  to 

9  tha  contras  during  tha  Boland  period? 

10  A    I  guess  I  would  have  to  say  that  I  don't  thir..< 

11  it  would  be  particularly  embarrassing.   That  was  not  r.y 

12  understanding  of  Mr.  McFarlana's  concerns. 

13  g    Well,  you  understood  that  Mr.  McFarlane  didn't 

14  even  want  to  discuss  this  in  tha  presence  of  the  Chief  of 

15  Staff,  right? 

16  MR.  BCCKUR:  Objection.   I  don't  know  where 

17  that  understanding  coaas  from,  what  is  tha  basis  for  ycur 

18  saying  what  this  client  of  mine  understood  about  what  Mr. 

19  McFarlane  said.   Let  me  finish  my  objection,  please. 

20  This  is  a  deposition.  I  have  a  right  to  put  my 

21  objections  on  the  record  without  having  counsel  cut  ma 

22  off.  Now  you  either  let  me  do  it  or  we're  not  going  to 

23  continue  this  deposition. 

24  MR.  LIMAN:   OJcay.   Vou  can-make  ^Tll  the 


1250 


UNCUSglFIED 

MR.  BECKLER:   Thank  you,  Couni«I. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (R««UBing) 


255 


1261 


UNCUSSIFIEO 


^r^ 


1252 


1 

2 
3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

13 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

2S 


BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (RMuming) 
Q    Did  you  hav«  any  discussions  with  anj 
officials  about,.  J&^  AVlP<^i^M'!t*.  S/. 


ssisting 


1253 


UNCLASSIFIED 


1  th*  L'nit«d  Stat«s  in  fighting  communist  incursions  in 

2  Central  Anarica? 

3  A    Th«  only  conv«rsation  that  I  racall  was  tha 

4  on*  I  think  I  tastifiad  about  on  tha  sacond  of  Kay,  and 

5  that  was  a  discussion  with^^^^^^^^^Hat  his 

6  and  I  don't  know  tha  tina  frama,  but  It  was  aftar  soma 

7  long  pariod,  as  I  racall,  aftar^^^^^^Hcontribution  in 

8  which  I  raisad  tha  issua  with  hin  as  to  how  Ganaral 

9  Vassay  knaw  about  what  I  racall  was  $25  million. 

10  Q    Why  wara  you  disturbed  that  Canaral  Vassay 

11  knaw? 

12  A    Only  from  tha  standpoint  that  that  indicated 

13  ona  mora  parson  in  tha  compartment  that  knaw  that  that  we 

14  frankly  didn't  think  had  a  need  to  know. 

15  Q    Did  you  think  that  Ganaral  Vassay  could  keep  a 

16  sacrat? 

17  X    Yas,  unless  ha  made  a  mistake.   And,  you  know, 

18  as  you  have  detected,  I  guess,  I  am  pretty  close-mouthed 

19  in  public.   And  I  just  don't  believe  that  people  need  to 

20  know  thing*  if  it's  not  essential. 

21  Q    Did  you  think  that  the  secretary  of  State 

22  needed  to  know  this? 

23  A    I  guess  I  would  h«v*  to  answer  that  that  I 

24  think  he  probably  should.  And,  frankly,  I  wasn't  certain 
^5  whether  he  knev 


iffiiMiiFiPn 


1254 


UNCIOFIEB 


259 


1  Q    As  you  r«call  —  and  w«'ll  com«  to  it  —  in  or 

2  around  Jun*  of  1986  you  and  Oliver  Korth  had  an  axchang* 

3  as  to  whathar  th«  Sacratary  of  stata  knaw. 

4  A    You  want  B«  to  talk  about  that? 

5  Q    Yas,  why  don't  you?  Wa  sight  as  wall  do  it 

6  now? 

7  MR.  BECKLER:   Arthur,  lat  na  just  intarjact 

8  ona  thing  hara.   Tha  raportar  is  not  noting  whan  ha 

9  consults  with  his  counsal  on  tha  racord? 

10  MR.  LIMAN:   Tha  raportar  normally  doas  nota 

11  that; 

12  MR.  BECKLER:   I  don't  think  that  should  ba 

13  noted.   It's  not  nacassary. 

14  MR.  LZMAN:   I  baliava  in  avary  deposition  I've 

15  ever  been  at  it's  noted. 

16  MR.  SMALL:   It  wasn't  noted  at  the  last 

17  deposition. 

18  MR.  BECKLER:   It  should  not  be  noted  at  this 

19  deposition  either.   It's  irrelevant.   He  has  a  right  to 

20  confer  with  m%   and  it  doesn't  have  to  be  noted  in  the 

21  record. 

22  MR.  LIMAN:   He  has  an-  absolute  right  to  confer 

23  wit^  you,  but  the  record  ought  to  indicate  when  he's  , 

24  conferring  with  counsel.  '  ^ 

25  MR.  B5<iKtER:   I  have  never  seen  in  the 


1255 


UNGUSSinED 


260 


1  depositions  that  I'vm   tak«n  it  not«d  without  «gr««m«nt  by 

2  counsel  that  that  should  b*  allowed,  and  I'm  not  agreeing 

3  to  that  procedure.   Z  think  it  clutt«rs  the  record  and  I 

4  don't  think  there's  any  provision  for  saying  that  that 

5  necessarily  should  be  included. 

6  MR.  LIHAN:   Sinply  because  I 'a  older  than  you 

7  I've  taken  more  depositions  than  you  have  and  to  me  it's 

8  almost  unheard  of  not  to  note  what  the  fact  is,  which  is 

9  that  you  are  consulting  with  your  client,  which  you  have 

10  a  perfect  right  to  do  and  from  which  no  inferences  are 

11  drawn,  period. 

12  MR.  SMALL:   Then  accordingly  there's  no  need 

13  to  have  it  on  the  record,  so  no  inference  can  be  drawn 

14  from  it.   It  has  a  chilling  effect  on  consultation 

15  between  counsel  and  clients. 

16  MR.  LIMAN:   You  know  something?   It  has  an 

17  actual  important  purpose,  which  is  that  if  questions  ever 

18  arise  as  to  whether  or  not  the  witness  did  or  didn't  have 

19  a  recollection  of  something,  the  fact  that  there's  no 

20  dispute  as  to  whether  he  consulted  with  his  counsel  is 

21  important  to  have  on  the  record.  There's  nothing  to  be 

22  ashamed  of  in  having  it  on  the  record,  and  I  think  you're 

23  being  much  too  sensitive  about  it. 

24  -        MR.  BECKLER:   We're  not  saying  we're  ashamed 

25  of  it;  we  just  object  to  the  procedure  of  havi.'ng  it  noted 


1256 


UNEIASSIFIED 


^__ 261 

1  on  th«  record. 

2  MR.  LIMAN:   Your  objection  is  not«d  and  wa  can 

3  taJc«  it  up  with  th«  Chair,  and  if  you  want  it  alininatad 

4  from  th«  rtcord  I  will  laava  it  to  th«  Conunittaas,  but  I 

5  thin]c  it's  a  proper  procedure.   Do  you  agree? 

6  MR.  LEON:   Can  w«  talk  about  it  for  a  second 

7  off  the  record? 

8  (A  brief  recess  was  taken.) 

9  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

10  g    At  the  break  you  were  going  to  tell  us  about 

11  the  circumstances  under  which  you  found  out  that  the 
Secretary  of  State     not  know  about^^^^^^^^^^^^J 

13  contribution  and  so  on. 

14  A    Right.   X  can't  recall  exactly  what  prompted 

15  Colonel  North's  PROFs  note  to  me,  which  I  have  seen  since 

16  and  so  my  memory  has  been  refreshed  that  he  sent  such  a 

17  note,  but  when  he  asked  me  whether  the  Secretary  of  Stati 

18  ]cnew  and  I  responded  to  him  in  some  rather  definitive  way 

19  that  I  didn't  know,  and  said  that,  as  I  recall,  the  less 

20  he  Icnew,  the  better. 

21  Q    You  said  in  essence  —  Z  could  get  the  note 

22  out  —  that  we'd  better  check  with  McFarlane,  or  he  said 

23  that,  as  to  what  the  Secretary  of  State  knew  or  didn't 

24  know.  / 

25  A  But  the  point  I  want  to  make   is  thaife  I  would 


1257 


UNDIASSIRED 


2S2 


1  often  tall  Colonal  North  —  Z  nasn,  Z  didn't  nacassarily 

2  t«ll  Colonal  North  avarything  that  I  was  doing,  but  Z 

3  didn't  want  hin  inquiring  around  ••  to  whathar  tha 

4  Sacratary  of  Stata  )cnav  or  didn't  )cnow.  Attar  his  nota 
9  ay  rscollaction  is  that  Z  callad  Mr.  McFarlana,  askad 

C  hin,  and  ny  racollaction  is  that  ha  said  that  ha  didn't 

7  think  that  ha  had  told  tha  Sacratary  of  Stata  but  that  hi 

•  would.    And  Z  said  fina. 

9  Q    Okay.   Lat's  mova  on.   Lst  b*  ask  you 

10  somathing  out  of  ordar  but  in  connaction  with  anothar 

witnass  doas  tha  nama^^^^^^^^^^Haaan 

13  you? 

13  A    Yas,  it  doas. 

14  MR.  LZMAN:  Can  wa  go  off  tha  racord  for  a 

15  saeond? 

le  (A  discussion  was  hald  off  tha  racord.) 

17  MR.  LZMAN:  Back  on  tha  racord. 

It  BY  MR.  LZMAN:   (Rasuming) 

19  Q    Do  you  racall,  Admiral,  avar  discussing  with 

20  McFarlana  in  aarly  19«S  whathar  or  not  you  naadad  a  naw 

21  Prasidantial  Finding  in  ordar  to  saak  third  country 

22  support  for  tha  contras? 

23  -   A    I  can't  racall  that. 

24  Q    Lat's  mark  «•  tha  naxt  axhibit  a 'PROFs  nota 

25  from  Fortiar  to  McFarlsna,  copy  to  you,  Admiral,  shown 


iiUALJjDf^erirn 


1258 


UNCLASSIFIED 


263 


1  right  on  it. 

2  (Th«  docuRtant  rafarrad  to  was 

3  narkad  Poindaxtar  Exhibit 

4  Numbar  25  for  idantif ication. ) 

5  (Pausa.) 

6  Do  you  racall  racaiving  this  PROF  nota? 

7  A    No,  I  don't  racall  it. 

8  Q    You  sea  that  it  says,  toward  tha  last  third  o£ 

9  tha  PROF  note,  "Ollie  believes  we  need  to  flag  tha 

10  possible  option  oC  a  Finding  permitting  us  to  seaJc  third 

11  country  support.   John  and  I  are  both  uneasy  about 

12  raising  this."   Oo  you  remember  ever  expressing  any 

13  discomfort  about  seeking  a  new  Presidential  Finding  with 

14  respect  to  third  country  support? 

15  A    As  I  said,  I  don't  recall  tha  memo,  but  that 

16  would  ba  consistent  with  my  view. 

17  Q    Which  was? 

18  A    Which  is  that  I  would  have  been  uneasy  about 

19  raising  that  because  it   wa  raised  it  we  wouldn't  have  any 

20  assurance  that  wa  could  gat  congressional  agreement  on 

21  it,  and  t  fait  that  it  was  batter,  wa  ware  in  a  better 

22  situation  where  wa  ware  of  being  able  to  quietly  get 

23  third  country  support.   If  wa  raised  it,  wa  might  ba  told 

24  specifically  not  to,  and  that  would  put  us  ^n  a  bind. 

25  Q    Did  you  discuss  this  point  of  view  .with 


1259 


ONttWItB 


264 


someone? 

A    According  to  this  note  I  discussed  it  with  at 
least  Don  Fortier.   I  don't  have  —  I  mean,  I  know  how  I 
felt  about  the  issue,  but  I  don't  recall  any 
conversations  about  this,  about  it. 

Q    Did  you  discuss  this  with  the  President  of  the 
United  States? 

8  A    I  don't  have  any  recollection  of  it. 

9  .     Q    Do  you  recall  any  Presidential  —  sorry.   Do 

10  you  recall  any  Presidential  addresses  in  which  the 

11  President  described  Nicaragua  as  his  number  one  priority 

12  at  the  time? 

13  A    I  don't  recall  one  specifically.   I  don't 

14  doubt  that  he  did.   It  would  be  consistent  with  his 

15  position. 

16  Q    And  is  it  fair  to  say  that  in  your  working 

17  with  the  President  it  was  a  matter  of  great  interest  of 

18  his,  the  support  of  the  contras? 

19  A    I  would  phrase  it  a  little  differently. 

20  Q    Well,  I'd  like  your  phrasing. 

21  A    He  felt  that  getting  a  democratic  government 

22  in  Nicaragua  was  a  very  important  issue  in  terms  of  the 

23  long-term  national  security  of  the  United  States.  He 

24  also  felt  that  the  way  to  do  that  was  to  keep  pressure  cr 

25  the  Sandinista  government  to  do  that.   He  felt  the 


government  to  ao  \.ua<.. 

imMJiDPinrfi 


1260 


ttsaissW 


265 


contras  ought  to  b«  supported.   But  I  would  d«scrib«  his 
priority  as  getting  a  dtraocratic  gov«rnm«nt  in  Nicaragua. 

Q    Ara  you  awar*  that  whan  lagislativa  votes 
would  con*  up  on  th«  sub j act  of  funding  for  ths  contras 
that  th«  Prssidant  would  call  th«  Msmbars  of  congress? 

A    Absolutely. 

Q    And  he  would  even  take  the  time  to  make 

8  notations  of  what  their  reactions  were  to  his  appeals? 

9  A    That  was  his  standard  procedure  in  terms  of 

10  his  conversations  with  Members  of  Congress. 

11  Q    Then  can  you  tell  me,  given  this  concern  of 

12  the  President,  whether  you  recall  any  discussions  with 

13  the  President  of  the  United  States  during  the  period  that 

14  you  were  the  Deputy  National  Security  Advisor  about  third 

15  country  support? 

16  A    Well,  as  I  testified  on  the  second  of  May,  I 

17  recall  one  specific  incident,  and  that  was  while  I  was 

18  technically  still  the  Deputy,  when  I  came  back  from  the 

19  one-day  trip  I  made  through  Central  America  and  my 

20  memory,  of  course,  was  refreshed  because  of  my  notes. 

21  But  I  did  discuss  with  him  then^^^^^^^H support. 

22  Q    You  mean  — 

23  -A    The  air  strip. 

24  Q    You  discussed  that? 

25  A    Yes.   But,  you  see,  normally  in  the,',9:30 


1261 


ui^yssra 


1  Riactings  with  th«  Prasidsnt  when  I  was  th«  Deputy,  I 

2  list«n«d  and  saldon  int«rj«ctad  anything  of  my  own  unless 

3  Mr.  HcFarlan*  specifically  turnsd  to  o*. 

4  Q    Wall,  lat  m*  oak*  it  clsar  I'm  not  asking  you 

5  whether  you  said  w«  ought  to  get  third  country  support. 

6  I  was  asking  you  any  conversations.   Do  you  recall  the 

7  President  discussing  it,  McFarlane  discussing  it  in  that 

8  period? 

9  A    There  no  doubt  was.   I  simply  don't  havu  a 

10  recollection  of  it.   We  conceivably  could  have  had  an  NSC 

11  or  KS?G  meeting  on  the  subject. 

12  Q    Do  you  recall  at  any  time  during  that  period, 

13  which  is  a  period  when  there  was  a  total  cutoff  of  aid  by 

14  Congress,  any  position  that  the  President  expressed  on 

15  whether  aid  should  be  sought  from  third  countries? 

16  XI  just,   Mr.   Liman,    simply  don't  have  a 

17  recollection  of  it.  That  doesn't  mean  that  it  didn't 

18  cone  up.   1  just  don't  recall  it.   Conceivably  my 

19  previous  notes  that  I  suppose  you  have  access  to  could 

20  indicate  that,  but  I  don't  remember.   I  haven't  seen 

21  those  notes. 

22  Q    I  can  assure  you.  Admiral  Poindexter,  I'm  not 

23  ho'lding  back  pieces  of  paper  from  you  and  tl)at  if  your 

24  notes  indicated  I  would  show  them  to  you  know. ^  That's 


1262 


UNWSinED 


267 


1  A  No,    I  don't.      Ai   I   said,    it  do««n't  m«an  that 

2  th«y  didn't  occur,  and  just  because  they  don't  appear  in 

3  my  notes  doesn't  nean  it  doesn't  occur. 

4  Q    But  essentially  from  June  of  1984,  when  money 

5  ran  out,  until  August  of  1983,  when  NHAO  money  was  made 

6  available  to  the  centres,  the  funding  was  coming  from 

7  third  countries? 

8  A    Ura-hum . 

9  Q    Can  you  not  recall  a  single  occasion  in  which 

10  you  were  present  where  the  President  was  told  that? 

11  A    I'm  sorry.   I  just  can't  recall  it. 

12  Q    Was  the  President  interested  in  how  the 

13  contras  were  doing  from  a  financial  point  of  view? 

14  A    You  see,  that  was  not  characteristic  of  the 

15  President.   That  was  a  level  of  detail  that  as  long  as  he 

16  knew  that  they  were  being  supported  he  depended  on  us  to 

17  follow,  you  )cnow,  how  much  money  they  had,  where  it  was 

18  coming  from,  and  so  that's  not  something  that,  for 

19  instance,  that  I  would  particularly  raise  with  him  as 

20  National  Security  Advisor. 

21  Mr.  Mcrarlane  may  have  discussed  it.   I  simply 

22  don't  recall  it. 

23  Q    Hell,  how  did  you  think  he  Icnew  that  they  were 

24  being  supported? 

25  A    well,  as  I  said  earlier,  I  was  awarA  because 


1263 


ii^mim 


268 


1  Mr.  McFarlan*  told  m*   that  ha  had  infotiRad  tha  Prasidant 

2  oT^^^^^^^Hcontribution,  and  so  my  undaritanding  was 

3  that  th«  Prasidant  knaw  that.   And  again  baeausa  of  tha 

4  graat  sensitivity  that  va  attachad  to  that,  for  tha 

5  raasons  that  I  hava  daserib«d,  it  was  inpcrtant  that  it 

6  not  ba  discussad  in  front  of  a  lot  of  paopla.   In  tha 

7  9:30  naatings  that  I  attandad  as  Oaputy  thara  wars  always 

8  savaral  paopla  thara. 

9  And  at  ona  point,  as  Mr.  McFarlana  has 

10  tastifiad,  whan  JLti  Bakar  was  tha  Chiaf  of  Staff  thara 

11  would  usually  ba  a  total  of,  mysalf  includad,  about  savar. 

12  paopla  in  tha  offica,  and  sansitiva  issuas  lika  that  Mr. 

13  McFarlana  didn't  lika  to  discuss  in  such  a  larga  group. 

14  And  I  cartainly  understood  that  and,  frankly,  agraad  with 

15  it. 

16  Q    YOU  tastifiad  last  tins  that  in  approving  tha 

17  usa  of  soma  of  tha  procaads  of  tha  Iranian  arms  sala  for 

18  tha  contras  you  baliavad  that  you  wara  acting  consistant 

19  with  tha  Prasidant 's  policias  and  tha  pracadants  of  thirl 

20  country  support;  corract? 

21  A    Corract. 

22  Q    And  you  said  that  you  baliavad  that  if  tha 

23  Prasidant  had  baan  told  about  this  ha  would, hava 

24  concurred? 


1264 


wmm 


269 


Q    othar  than^^^^^^Hcontribution  is  that*  a 
singl*  other  contribution  for  th«  contra*  during  tha 
Boland  pariod  that  you  ara  avara  of  that  tha  Prasidant 
]cnav,  and  that's  prior  to  Brunai? 

X    X  suspact  that  —  I  can't  raaambar  tha  axaet 
timing  of  tha  contribution  from^^^^H 

Q    Wall,  I'll  halp  you  on  that. 

8  A    Whan  was  that? 

9  Q    Tha  contributions  from^^^^Hcama  in  bafora 

10  tha  diversion. 

11  A    What  I  was  going  to  say  was  I  suspact  tha 

12  Prasidant  knaw  about  that.   I  can't  racall  -- 

13  MR.  LEON:   It  was  tha  August-Octobar  tima 

14  frama. 

15  THE  WITNESS:   "85. 

16  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuming) 

17  Q    Whan  you  say  you  suspact  ha  knaw  about  then, 

18  what  gives  you  that  suspicion? 

19  A    Well,  Mr.  McFarlane  was  still  there  and  there 

20  would  have  been  no  reason  for  hia  not  to  tell  the 

21  President  about H|^^^^Hcontribut ion  because  the 

22  President  was  aware  of  ^^^^^Hcontribution. 

23  -   Q    But  Mr.  McFarlane  denies  that  he  knew  of  the 
^^^^^^^contribution. 

25  A         Well^. that's  i^i±  SfitliiSli'^^ • 


"imatmm 


1265 


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Q    Did  you  •v^r  h«ar  McFarlan*  tall  tha  Prasidar: 
about  tha^^^^Hcontribution? 

A    I  can't  racall  it. 

Q    Kow  tha^^^^Hcontribution  would  hava  also 
baan  a  vary  controvarsial  contribution;  corract? 

6  A    It  would  hava  for  many  of  tha  saoa  raasons. 

7  Q    Did  you  tall  tha  Prasidant  about  tha| 

8  contribution? 

9  A    I  don't  racall  doing  that. 

10  Q    Who  told  you  about  t.-.a^^^^Hcontribution? 

11  Who  told  you  about  it? 

12  A    Colonal  North,  my  recollaction  is. 

13  Q    You  taitifiad  last  tima  that  from  ti.Tia  to  tir.e 

14  Colonal  North  would  ba  invitad  to  tha  briafings  of  tha 

15  Prasidant  whan  thara  was  somathing  involving  Cantral 

16  Amarica  that  ha  would  hava  soma  input  on. 

17  A    That's  corract. 

18  Q    Did  Colonal  North  avar  raport  to  tha  Prasidant 

19  in  your  prasanca  on  contributions  from  third  countrias? 

20  A    I  don't  racall  that. 

21  Q    Was  tha  Prasidant  avar  told  in  your  prasanca  - 

22  that  any  aoni««  vara  baing  aolicitad  for  lathal  aid  for 

23  tha  contras  from  privata  citizans? 

24  A    A»  I  tastifiad  on  tha  sacond  of  Ma^r  I  don't 
—  ••1  ay^t.   distinctions  baina  mada  in  tarras  of  private 


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contribution*  and  third  country  contributions  b«tw««n 
l«thal  and  non-l«thal  aid.   You  know,  frankly  that  is  a 
r«al  ssmantic  axsrcis*. 

Q    But  th«  Prasidant  of  tha  Unitad  Statas  said 
that  ha  undarstood  that  tha  aonay  that  was  baing 
solicitad  from  Anarican  citizans  was  baing  usad  for  ad 
campaigns  to  ancouraga  support  for  tha  centras.  That's 

i  what  ha  just  said.   Now  wars  you  avar  prasant  whan  ha  was 

9       told  somathing  to  tha  contrary? 

10  A    As  I'va  said,  I  can't  racall  that. 

11  Q    You  can't  racall  what? 

12  A    Baing  in  his  prasanca  whan  ha  was  told 

13  somathing  contrary  to  that.   That's  his  racollaetion. 

14  Q    Kow  thars  is  a  distinction  batwaan  lathal  aid 

15  and  ad  campaigns  to  solicit  support  for  contra  aid 

16  legislation,  isn't  thara?  You'd  agraa  with  that? 

17  A    Wall,  in  tha  and  thay  both  hava  tha  sama 

18  affact. 

19  Q    Admiral,  thara 's  a  diffaranca  in  your  mind, 

2  0       isn't  thara,  batwaan  spending  money  for  hand  grenades  and 

21  weapons  and  for  an  ad  campaign? 

22  A    Well,  if  an  ad  campaign  leads  to  a  change  in  a 

23  Congressional  vote,  it  accomplishes  the  same  purpose. 

24  Q    But  did  the  President  of  the  United  States 

25  aver  approve  a  solicitation  of  funds  for  anything  other 

iiiinLAjDx^icitn 


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than  ad  campaigns  so  far  as  you  know? 

A    As  I  tsstifisd  •arlisr,  h*  oftsn  talksd  in 
g«n«ric  tarns  about  how  ha  thought  it  was  appropriata  for 
private  individuals  to  support  tha  contras.  As  I  said,  I 
don't  racall  a  distinction  baing  mad*  batvaan  lathal  and 
nen-l«thal  aid.   As  I'va  said,  ha  of tan  quotad  or 
discussad  tha  pracadants  of  tha  organizations  lika 

8  Lafayatte  Escadrilla  and  other  efforts  of  U.S.  citizens 

9  on  a  private  basis  helping  in  the  insurgencies  in  foreign 

10  countries. 

11  So,  you  know,  my  impression  at  this  point, 

12  recalling  the  time  period,  there's  not  a  big  distinction 

13  in  my  mind  between  lethal  and  non-lethal  aid.   I  was 

14  convinced  that  the  President  was  in  favor  of  private 

15  support  to  the  democratic  resistance. 

16  Q    Was  there  distinction  in  your  mind  between 

17  lethal  and  non-lethal  aid  when  Congress  passed  the  law 

18  that  said  that  third  country  assistance  could  be 

19  solicited  for  humanitarian  purposes? 

20  A    I  frankly  don't  recall  that  distinction.   I  do 

21  recall  when  NHAO  was  in  existence  that  there  were  various 

22  controversies  about  what  was  lethal  and  non-lethal  when  I 

23  became  the  National  Security  Advisor  and  it  involved  at 

24  that  point,  in  consultations  with  Congress  I  ca;t  recall 


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1  and  I  recall  that  my  thinlting  at  th«  tim«  was  that  this 

2  is  a  r«al  uncsrtain  division. 

3  Q    Adairal,  do  you  not  rscall  discussions  whtn 

4  you  v«r«  National  Security  Advisor  and  Deputy  about  the 

5  fact  that  one  option  was  to  get  legislation  permitting 

6  you  to  seek  from  third  countries  humanitarian  aid? 

7  A    I  recall  that  there  were  discussions  about 

8  that  that  eventually  led  to  the  modification  of  the 

9  legislation. 

10  Q    And  do  you  recall  that  there  were  discussions 

11  in  which  at  least  Members  of  Congress  drew  a  distinction 

12  between  humanitarian  aid  and  lethal  aid? 

13  A    Yes. 

14  Q    And  do  you  recall  that  the  President  of  the 

15  United  States  signed  a  bill  that  came  from  Congress  that 

16  drew  that  distinction  between  humanitarian  aid  and  lethal 

17  aid? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  Q    And  so  whether  you  think  that  there's  a 

20  difference  between  humanitarian  aid  and  lethal  aid,  do 

21  you  recall  any  discussions  with  the  President  of  the 

22  United  States  in  which  there  was  a  distinction  drawn  for 

23  hin  between  lethal  and  non-lethal  aid? 

24  A    The  only  discussions  that  I  can  recall  were 
with  regard  to  the  legislation  that  would  apprdpriate 


25 


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274 


1  U.S.  Gov«rnin«nt  funds.   I  don't  recall  thosa  discussions 

2  in  connection  with  third  country  and  privat*  support. 

3  Q    Nov  whsn  Congrtss  passed  th«  law  in  Dacemher 
A  of  1985  permitting  the  State  Department  to  solicit 

5  humanitarian  aid,  were  you  aware  ot   the  passage  of  that 

6  law? 

7  A    In  general  terms  I  was. 

8  Q    Did  you  consider  that  you  were  free  at  that 

9  point  to  seek  leuhal  aid  from  third  countries? 

10  A    I  don't  recall  focusing  on  that  particular 

11  distinction.   Frankly,  if  we  were  able  to  get  third 

12  country  contributions  to  go  to  the  contras  it  was  goir.g 

13  to  be  very  difficult  for  us  to  have  any  sort  of  control 

14  over  how  t.he  money  was  spent. 

15  Q    Well,  Admiral,  did  you  feel  after  that  law  was 

16  passed  that  you  were  free  to  go  to  a  third  country  and 

17  say  we  want  money  for  munitions? 

18  MR.  BECKLER:   I'm  going  to  object  to  this  lir.e 

19  Of  questioning.   This  really  is  getting  into  the  area  of 

20  whether  or  not  Admiral  Poindexter,  what  his 

21  interpretation  of  various  laws  was,  what  he  did,  what  he 

22  did  not  do.   You  can  ask  hira  what  he  did,  what  he 

23  remembers,  who  he  spoke  to,  but  he  is  not  qualified  to  te 

24  expounding  on  what  the  meaning  of  a  particular  law  is  or 

25  whatever  everybody  else  felt  the  meaning  of  t6e  law  was. 


rvbody  else  rext  ^nm  mman 

him  Lo.rjnrr? 


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I 
2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 

25 


Lmz's   just  g«t  on  with  th«  facts  of  what  happ^nad. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Raiuaing) 

Q    Admiral,  did  you  understand  that  whan  tha 
Sacratary  of  Stat*  was  approaching  Brunai  through  his 
Assistant  Sacratary  of  State  that  h«  was  saaking 
huaanitarian  aid? 

A    As  I  said,  I  don't  racall  that  distinction. 

Q  Did  you  baliava  that  whan  you  approved  the  use 

of  the  proceeds  from  the  Iranian  arms  sale  that  it  was 
going  to  be  used  only  for  non-lethal  support? 

A    Absolutely  not. 

Q    Did  McFarlane  ever  tell  you  whether  he  told 
the  President  of  the  United  States  what^^f^^^money 
was  going  to  be  used  for? 

A    X  simply  can't  recall  that. 

Q    Did^^^^^lwhen  you  met  with  him,  tell  you 
that  the  contribution  was  for  humanitarian  aid? 

A    I  don't  recall  that  distinction  being  made. 

Q    But  you  had  an  understanding  that  they  were 
using  that  noney  for  guns  and  ammunition,  didn't  you? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Were  you  Involved  at  all  in  any  of  the 
preparatory  sessions  for  the  meeting 


I  probably  was.   Our  general  procedure  was  to 

llMMiAiMnrrt 


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hav*  at  least  on*  pr«-bri«f ingi 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  I  but  no 

doubt  th«r«  was  on*  and  I  was  probably  th«r«. 

Q    Do  you  recall  any  discussion  with  th« 
Prasid*nt  of  th«  United  Statts  about  the  fact  that  the 
money  that  had  previously  been  pledged  b^ 
was  inadequate  and  was  running  out  and  that  we  needed 

8  more  money  for  the  contras? 

9  A    I  don't  recall  that. 

10  Q    Was  there  any  discussion  priori 

11  ^^^^^^^^Hthat  we  had  to  find  some  increased  source 

12  funding  for  the  contras? 

13  MR.  BECKLER:   Discussion  with  whom? 

14  BY  KR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

15  Q    Any  discussion  that  you  are  aware  of? 

16  A    I  do  have  some  recollection  that  Colonel  North 

17  reported  that  the  contras  were  running  out  of  money,  and 

18  my  recollection  is  that  he  went  back  to  Mr.  McFarlane  and 
asked  him  to  reapproachH|^^^^^H  about 

20  their  contribution.   I  can't  remember  what  time  frame 

21  that  wai. 

2  2  Q    was  that  discussed  with  the  President  in  your 

23  presence?  .' 

24  A    Again  I  don't  recall  it,  because  again,  you 
2  5       know,  I  can't,  tor  instance,  recall  a  time  that  I  met 

■  MM  IMS   ■  .^  — 


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1  with  th«  Pr«sid«nt  and  Mr.  McFarlan*,  just  th«  thr««  ot 

2  us.   Kow  conc«iv*bly  th«r«  m»y  h«v«  b««n  «n  occaaion,  but 

3  X  can't  recall  it.   But  it  would  only  hava  baan  undar 

4  that  kind  of  linitad  participation,  at  laast  my  baliaf 

5  today  it  that  it  would  hava  only  baan  undar  that  kind  of 
C  situation,  that  Mr.  McFarlana  would  hava  raisad  that 

7  issua. 

•  Q     Why? 

9  A    Again  baeauaa  wa  fait  tha  fawar  paopla  that 

10  knaw  about  this  tha  lasa  ehanca  thara  was  for  laakaga, 

11  and  for  tha  raasons  I  hava  dascribad  wa  wara  eonearnad 

12  about  laakags. 

13  Q    But  hara  you  had  tha  Prasidant  of  tha  Unitad 

14  Statas  who  you  acknowladga  was  daaply  eonearnad  about  tha 

15  fata  of  tha  eontras  during  this  funding  cutoff. 
1<  A    That's  eorract. 

17  Q    And  you  ara  baing  told  by  Colonal  North,  who 

It  is  ths  point  man  on  this,  that  thay  ara  running  out  of 

19  aenay;  eorract? 

ao  A    That's  eorract. 

21  Q    And  you'ra  baing  told  by  Colonal  North  that  wa 

to  go  back  ^^^^^^^^^B  ^* 

23  _   A    That's  eorract. 

24  Q    I  nssn,  if  you  don't  bring  somath^ng  lika  that 
29  to  tha  attention  of  tha  Prasidant,  what  is  brought  to  tha 


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attention  of  th«  Pr«sid«nt  of  th«  Unit«d  States? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Does  h«  hav«  to  answar  that 
quastion? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Yas,  it's  a  sarious  quaition.   i 
don't  know  what  issua  is  alavatad  to  tha  attantion  of  tha 
Prasidant  if  somathing  lika  this  isn't. 

MR.  BECKLER:   If  you  hava  an  issua  that  you 

8  want  to  ask  if  it's  alavatad  to  tha  Prasidant,  you  ask 

9  him,  but  ha's  not  going  to  sit  hara  and  answar  what  is 

10  alavatad  to  tha  Prasidant  durir.g  tha  fiva  yaars  ha  worked 

11  in  tha  Whita  Housa. 

12  Now  w«  hava  had  asked  and  answered  at  least 

13  fifteen  times  about  what  he  recalls  about  what  ha  spoke 

14  to  the  President  about  about;^^^^^^^^^H  Now 

13       going  to  sit  hare  and  answer  it  over  and  over  and  over 

16  again. 

17  MR.  LIMAN:   Vou  can  make  all  tha  speeches  you 

18  want. 

19  BV  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

20  Q    What  are  the  criteria  for  deciding  what  issues 

21  to  elevate  to  the  President  of  the  United  States? 

22  A    It's  a  very  hard  thing  to  define.   It's  very 

23  subjective.   It  depends  on  a  lot  of  personal;  judgment. 

24  Certainly  untoward  incidents  against  U.S.  property  and 

25  personnel  any  place  in  the  ^^^w^^-C^*^^'  °^ 


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1  legislation,  th«  status  of  th«  —  with  rsgard  to  Csntral 

2  America,  th«  status  of  our  nsgotiating  track,  th«  status 

3  of  th«  contras  in  tsms  of  how  many  th«r«  ar*,  hew  aany 

4  ar«  amad,  whathar  thay  ara  in  country  or  in  ona  of  tha 

5  surrounding  countries,  aras  control.  An  awful  lot  of 

6  tins  is  spant  en  arms  control. 

7  You  hava  presumably  my  9:30  file,  although  Z 

8  guess  maybe  you've  got  redacted  versions  of  it.   There 

9  are  a  whole  range  of  things.   But  going  back  to  your 

10  earlier  questions,  I'm  not  saying  the  President  wasn't 

11  told  about  those  things;  it's  sir.ply  that  I  don't  have  a 

12  recollection  of  it. 

13  You  know,  in  that  position  you  really  get  into 

14  a  situation  of  overload  on  your  memory.   There  are  so 

15  many  issues.   You  know,  we're  talking  about  a  time  period 

16  that  I  was  involved  in  the  white  House  of  five  and  a  half 

17  years.   You  know,  without  something  that  tickles  my 

18  memory  or  that  I  can  refer  to,  I  simply  don't  have  a 

19  recollection  of  it. 

20  Q    Admiral,  you  have  mentioned  that  one  of  the 

21  concerns  about  talking  about^^^^^^^^Hwith  the 

22  President  was  that  there  was  a  desire  to  keep  this 

23  in/ormation  closely  held;  correct? 

24  A    That's  correct. 

25  Q         And  th^t  ^^*  ^or*   people  who  know,  .the  graattr 


that  the  more  people  who 


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17 

18 

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20 

21 

22 

23 

24 


UNCtASSIFIED 


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1  th«  risk  of  l«ak,  I  suppo»«. 

2  A    In«dv«rt«nt  l«a)cag«,  too,  not  inttntional 

3  n«c«isarily- 

4  Q    But  isn't  it  a  fact  that  vary,  vary  sansitivt 

5  aacrats  of  atata  vara  discussad  at  thasa  aarly  morning 

6  briafings  of  tha  Prasidant? 

7  A    That's  corract. 

8  Q    And  without  gatting  into  what  thay  wara,  I 

9  maan,  can  you  not  racall  occasions  whan  mattars  of  avan 
graatar  sansitivity  than         that^^^^^^HH*' 

11  giving  soma  monay  to  tha  contras  was  discussad  with  tha 

12  Prasidant  in  tha  prasanca  of  this  littla  family  group  h. 

13  has  thara? 
A    Now  what's  tha  spacific  quastion  again? 
Q    wran't  thara  mattars  of  avan  graat  national 

sansitivity  thanjjj^^l  contribution  discussad  with 
tha  Prasidant  at  this  sacurity  briafing  ha  got  avery 
Borning  in  tha  prasanca  of  his  chiaf  of  staff? 

A    wall,  again,  you  Know,  to  answar  that  quastion 
you  naad  to  think  about  tha  philosophy  as  to  why  or  tha 
thaory  a.  to  why  laak.  occur.   If  .n  issu.  is  claarly  of 
national  sacurity  concarn  of  tha  Unltj^tjtas,  lika,  oh, 
.ay,  that  w.  hav.  a  spy  '"|^Hi°''  .omathing 
-I'm  not  saying  wa  do  --  now  that  would  claarly  ba 

"      — "  "^  -  -.YiiBllMiDcn  "  """'"'  " 


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th*y  should  navar  say  anything  about. 

An  issua  likaH||^|H^Hcontributing  funds 
for  Cantr&l  Amarica  doasn't  fall  in  that  catagory.   it's 
■ansitiva  bacausa  of  tha  sansitivity^^^^^^^^Hhava 
about  it.   It's  sansitiva  from  tha  standpoint  that  wa 
don't  want  mora  rastrictiva  lagislation.   But  it's  mora  a 
political  issua,  and  thosa  ara  tha  things  that  paopla 

8  sonatinas  lika  to  ravaal  aithar  intantionally  or  thay  do 

9  it  unintentionally  to  indicata  how  in  tha  know  thay  ara. 

10  And  thosa  things  ara  vary  suscaptibl*  to  laakaga. 

11  And  so  that's  why  ther*  was  a  big  distinction, 

12  at  laast  in  my  mind.   I  can't  spaak  for  Mr.  McFarlana. 

13  Q    And  whan  you  say  in  your  mind,  that's  why  you 

14  assumad  that  ha  navar  discussad  it  insofar  as  you  racall 

15  in  your  prasanca  with  tha  Prasidant? 

16  A    That's  cerract.   It  was  a  tidbit  that  could 

17  aasily  laak  out. 

13  Q    I'm  going  to  mark  as  th*  naxt  Exhibit  an  KSC 

19  documant  datad  Saptambar  2,  1984,  from  North  to 

20  "McFarlana.   It  shews  that  you  hava  rscaivad  it,  but,  if  I 

21  raad  this  corractly,  bafora  Mcrsrlina.   And  I'll  ask  you 

22  to  look  at  it,  saa  if  you  can  racall  it.   Tha  handwriting 

23  en "tha  and  is  hsrd  te  rssd,  but  it  says  "Lat's  wait  a 

24  waak  or  two."  Th«n  it's  crossad  out,  and  it  says  "I 

25  don't  think  that  is  lagsl." 

iiiiAi  innirirn 


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282 


1  MR.  BECKIER:   Ar«  w«  going  to  go  off  the 

2  record  for  a  minute  on  this  question  of  receiving  it?  I 

3  just  want  to  clarify  something. 

4  (A  discussion  was  held  off  the  record.) 

5  (The  document  referred  to  was 

6  marked  Poindexter  Exhibit 

7  Number  26  for  identification.) 

8  (Pause.) 

9  BY  MR.  l:maN:   (Resuming) 

10  Q    This  was  also  printed,  I  should  tell  you,  in 

11  the  Tower  Report,  as  I  recall,  or  summarized. 

12  Do  you  recall  that  at  all? 

13  A    Ko,  I  don't.   In  fact,  the  way  this  route 

14  sheet  is  marked  I  can't  recall  whether  I  saw  it.   The 

15  only  way  that  you  can  be  sure  that  I  have  read  a  memo  is 

16  if  my  initials  are  on  it  someplace. 

17  Q    Why  don't  we  get  into  that  now?   During  the 

18  period  that  you  were  the  Deputy  could  you  give  me  an 

19  ••timate  of  how  many  pages  a  day  of  reading  you  did? 

20  A    Hundreds.   I  don't  know  the  number  —  a  very 

21  large  amount. 

22  Q    Do  you  speed  read? 

23  "a    No.   I'm  a  slow  reader.  , 

24  Q    And  after-yott  -became  National  Security  Adviso: 


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A  D«cr«ascd. 

Q    Bacaus*  you  had  a  Deputy  who  could  do  it? 
A    Yes,  for  a  period  of  tin*.  -But,  ef  course, 
then  I  operated  from  the  middle  of  May  until  the  first 
of,  I  guess,  the  end  of  September  without  a  Deputy.   But 
still  it  seems  to  me  my  staff  filtered  out  the  stuff,  as 
I  had  done  for  Mr.  McFarlane. 
9  Q    Now  if  you  filtered  out  the  material  for 

9       McFarlane,  who  would  have  filtered  out  a  report  like  this 

10  for  McFarlane? 

11  A    This  must  have  had  some  time  urgency.   It 

12  looks  like  the  President  was  getting  ready  to  do 

13  someplace  in  the  afternoon.   What  Z  was  going  to  say  is 

14  that  the  check  mark  means  that  a  copy  of  it  was  sent  to 

15  me.   Whether  I  saw  the  copy  before  Mr.  McFarlane  did 

16  would  be  highly  questionable. 

17  Q    But  who  would  — 

18  A    And  the  chances  are  I  did  not  see  everythir.g 

19  that  came  out  from  Mr.  McFarlane. 

20  Q    But  who  would  screen  the  memos  that  were 

21  addressed  to  McFarlane  during  the  period  that  he  was 

22  National  Security  Advisor? 

23  A    I  would  normally.  ' 

24  Q    And  would  someone  screen  them  for  you? 
»    ves.  IlilAI  MAAirim 


■»^ 


1279 


UNCLASSIflEB 


1  Q    So  that  if  somebody  s«nt  a  memorandum  to 

2  McFarlan*  what  would  b*  tha  procass? 

3  A    Wall,  it  dapands  on  what  syatam  it's  in. 

4  Q    Lat's  taka  Syatam  IV. 

5  A    Again,  on  Systam  IV  it  would  dapand  on  tha 

6  contant.   Soma  of  tha  Systam  IV  itams  —  tha  normal  flow 

7  of  paperwork  for  all  tha  Systams  was  from  tha  staff 

8  officer  to  the  Executive  Secretary,  from  the  Executive 

9  Secretary  up  to  the  Deputy,  and  from  the  Deputy  in  to  the 

10  National  Security  Advisor. 

11  Now  under  me  I  did  it  a  little  bit 

12  differently.   Before  it  got  to  ae,  after  it  left  the 

13  Deputy,  it  also  want  to  my  military  assistant,  who  did 

14  even  more  filtering. 

15  Q    But  would  somebody  put  them  in  piles  for  you 

16  so  that  you'd  understand  that  some  things  really  required 

17  action  and  you  should  read  and  other  materials  was  just 

18  to  tell  you  that  something  had  been  sent  but  it  was  hot  a 

19  matter  that  required  your  paying  any  attention  to  it? 

20  A    That's  correct.   I  had  several  categories  — 

21  urgent  items  that  were  in  a  red  folder,  action  items  that 

22  were  less  urgent  but  that  I  had  to  take  some  sort  of 

23  action  on,  and  then  information  items.   Chances  are,  just 

24  looking  at  this  document,  that  because  it  wa's  going  in  to 

25  Mr.  McFarlane  at  the  same  time  it  was  going  in';to  me,  it 


1280 


mmmm 


285 


1  probably  want  into  my  inConnation  foldar. 

2  Q    You  ■••,  in  this  aanorandua  Olivar  North  is 

3  rscoBBsnding  that  •  private  donor  b«  appreachad  to  fund 

4  tha  purchasa  of  a  hallceptar  for  tha  FOH;  eerract? 

5  A    Um-hua. 

6  Q    And  ha  talks  about  tha  fact  that  tha  only 

7  halieoptar  that  tha  FDN  had  en  its  northarn  front  had 
•  baan  shot  down. 

9  A    Um-hun . 

10  Q    And  if  tha  notation  thara  was  put  on  at  tha 

11  tima,  Mr.  McFarlana  indieatad  that  ha  thought  it  wasn't 

12  lagal  to  approach  a  privata  donor. 

13  AX  don't  know  what  Mr.  McFarlana  was  thinking. 

14  I  maan,  X  saa  what  ha  wrota,  but  X  don't  know  tha 

15  background. 

16  Q    But  you  hava  no  racellaction  of  tha  nano  and 

17  you  hava  no  racellaction  of  Mr.  McFarlana  axprassing  a 
IS  viav  against  solicitation  of  funds?  Xs  that  what  it' 

19  ceaas  down  to? 

20  A    That's  not  axactly  what  X'va  said  bafora. 

21  What  X'va  said  bafora  is  that  ay  iaprassion  was  that  ha 

22  was  sansitiva  about  solicitation  on  any  sort  of  a  broad 

23  scala. 

24  Q    What  doas  that  aaan? 

25  A    wall. .for  axaapla,  ha  didn't  want,  'for 


..for  axaapla,  ha  didn't 


1281 


286 

«xainpl«,  stat«  Department  going  out  and  soliciting  funds 
from  third  countries. 

Q    But  this  was  Oliver  North.   He's  not  state 
Department. 

A  Yeah,  that's  true.  Again,  I  don't  recall  it. 
I  don't  recall  having  any  discussion  with  Mr.  McFarlane 
about  it.   I  don't  know  what  his  rationale  was  for  saying 

8  that.   I  frankly  wouldn't  see  anything  wrong  with  it. 

9  Q    And  I  think  I  know  the  answer.   Is  it  a  fact 

10  that  you  don't  recall  whether  this  was  ever  elevated  to 

11  the  President  of  the  United  States? 

12  A    I'm  sorry.   I  just  dcn't  know. 

13  Q    I'll  mark  as  the  next  exhibit  a  memorandum 

14  dated  March  27,  1984.   It's  from  Mr.  Casey  to  Mr. 

15  McFarlane,  and  the  only  question  I  have  is  whether  or  not 

16  you've  seen  this  document  before. 

17  (The  document  referred  to  was 

18  marked  Poindexter  Exhibit 

19  Number  27  for  identification.) 
2  0  There  is  writing  on  the  second  page. 

21  (Pause.) 

22  A    I  don't  recall  seeing  it. 

23  "   Q    I'll  next  mark  as  the  next  exhibit?  two  PROF 

24  notes,  each  given  a  separate  number,  one  dated  5/8/86, 

25  one  dated  9/15/86.   Both  of  them  are  addressed'.'to  you 


1282 


UNSIASSIFIED 


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frca-'' North. 


(Th«  document  r*f«rr«d  to  was 

6  raarlcad  Poindaxtar  Exhibit 

7  Nuabar  28  for  idantification. ) 

8  Tha  othar  is  a  massaga  that  rafars  to  a 
■Hf^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^mmHof farad  to  soma 

10  Spanish-spaaking  Israalis  into  Central  Amarica  to  assist 

11  in  training. 

12  —  (Tha  documant  rafarrad  to  was 

13  markad  Poindaxtar  Exhibit 

14  Numbar  29  for  idantification. ) 

15  My  quastion  is  whathar  you'va  saan  thasa  PROF 

16  notas  bafora  and  whathar  this  was  a  sub j act  that  was 

17  briafad  to  tha  Prasidant  of  tha  Unitad  Statas,  just  so 

18  you  know  whan  you  raad  tham  what  I'm  looking  for. 

19  (Pausa.) 

20  Whanavar  you'ra  raady,  Admiral. 

21  A    Okay. 

22  Q  I'm  talking  about  on  Exhibit  28,    I   rafarrad 

23  you* -inly  to  tha  top  nota.      Do  you  racall  tha^  nota? 

24  A  I  don't  racall  tha  nota.      I   racall   tha   issue. 

25  Q  Tha   i-V^JiMXpgf 


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9 
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22 
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24 
2S 


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  I  do  recall 
t^.at  issus. 

Q    Was  t.'^.at  aver  raported  to  th«  President  oC  the 
Vnited  States  by  you? 

A 


A    It's  conceivable,  but  again  — 

Q    It  rings  a  bell? 

A    Yes,  it  rings  a  bell,  but  I  don't  have  a  firm 
recollection  of  it. 

Q    What  about  Rabin's  offer  to  send  some  Spanish- 
speaking  advisors  to  Central  America? 

A    That's  more  vagu«.   I  don't  rsmember  the  note 
that  you  have  her«  that's  Exhibit  29. 

Q    whil«  we'r«  on  th«  sub j set  of  notes,  why  don't 
we  deal  with  what  Mr.  B«c)cl«r  had  raised  bsfore?  The 
PROF  note  system  was  a  systsm  in  which  you  w(Juld  get  the 
message  on  a  terminal;  is  that  correct?       ^ 

A    That's  correct. 


1284 


ONCIASSIFIED 


289 


1  Q    Now  i;  you  wanted  to,  you  could  print  out  th« 

2  message. 

3  A    Some.   Well,  in  general  that's  true. 

4  Q    And  you  had  a  printer,  right? 

5  A    Yes,  I  had  a  printer.   You  could  also  direct 

6  the  secretary  to  print  it  out. 

7  Q    In  your  case  what  was  your  practice  with 

8  respect  to  printing  out  PROF  notes? 

9  A    Generally  I  didn't.   Once  in  a  while,  if  I  had 

10  something  that  was  going  to  require  further  study  or  if 

11  it  was  especially  a  complex  issue  that  I  wanted  to  thinjc 

12  about  for  a  while,  I  would  print  it  out,  but  that, 

13  frankly,  was  very  rare. 

14  MR.  8ECKLER:   To  shed  light  on  this,  maybe  yo 

15  could  explain  the  system  in  the  sense  that  you  would 

16  flash  up  on  the  screen  to  see  what  messages  you  had 

17  before  you  got  into  the  actual  reading,  because  if  you 

18  had  to  read  them  on  the  screen  it's  like  reading  — 

19  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

20  Q    You  would  see  who  sent  you  the  message;  is 

21  that  correct? 

22  MR.  BECKLER:   Why  don't  you  just  give  us  sort 

23  of  an  overview  as  to  how  it  worked? 

24  THE  WITNESS:   There  were  several'  screens  and 

25  the  PROF  •y»tem,g^^  mpre^thai^  just_send  elect»pnic 


1285 


25 


UNfUSSIFIED 


290 


1  massages.   It  also  kept  appointments  and  schedules  and 

2  telephone  logs  and  several  other  functions.   And  you  had 

3  essentially  an  electronic  in  box  and  when  you  pushed  the 
A  key  for  the  electronic  in  box  you  would  get  essentially 

5  an  index  of  the  notes  that  you  had  waiting  there. 

6  It  would  indicate  who  the  note  was  from,  and  I 

7  believe  I  thinX  it  also  indicates  the  subject.  And  then 

8  you  could  either  than  go  to  that  note  and  read  it  or  not. 

9  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

10  Q    And  you  made  it  a  practice,  you  testified  last 

11  time,  of  clearing  out  the  old  notes  about  once  a  month? 

12  A    That's  correct. 

13  Q    That  involved  taking  a  few  steps  with  the 

14  computer? 

15  A    That's  correct. 

16  Q    Did  you  ever  teach  Oliver  North  how  to  do 

17  that?   Is  that  one  of  your  great  regrets? 

18  A    Should  I  answer  that? 

19  MR.  BECKLER:   No,  let's  just  go  on. 

20  THE  WITNESS:   Ves,  there  was  a  provision  to 

21  either  save  the  note  or  delete  it,  and  my  normal  routine 

22  would  be  as  I  read  the  notes  I  would  move  them.   I  would 

23  save  then  into  a  note  file.   That  note  file  would  grow. 

24  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 
Q    Hard  copy  or  just  save  them  on  the 'machine? 


1286 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


A  Electronically  save  them  on  the  machine,  and 
then  at  the  end  of  the  month  I  would  go  in  and  move  the 
not«  file  into  another  file  and  then  er&se  that  file. 

Q    Were  you  aware,  Admiral  Poindexter,  that  the 
messages  that  you  had  in  the  PROF  machine  were  copied 
periodically  by  a  central  computer? 

A    I  wasn't  specifically  aware  of  that,  but  in 
general  I  understand  that  data  processing  centers  bade  up 
their  disks  to  magnetic  tape  periodically  to  protect 
against  loss  of  information. 

Q    Okay.   I've  asked  you  about  those  two 
messages.   Now  we  talked  previously  about  — 

A    I'm  not  sure  I  fully  answered  your  question  on 
the  Spanish-speaking  trainers.   I  said  I  didn't  recall 
the  message.   It's  very  vague.   I  do  have  a  recollection 
that  at  various  points  the  Israelis  did  talk  in  terns  of 
offering  some  trainers.   I  don't  remember  this  particular 
message. 

Q    Do  you  remember  discussing  that  with  the 
President  of  the  United  States? 

A  I  don't  remember  that,  because  I  don't  think 
we  ever  did  that  or  they  ever  agreed  to  do  it. 


1287 


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7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
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23 

24 

25 


UNCIASSIREO 


292 


Was  that  •vr   discussed  with 
th«  Prcsidant  of  tha  Unitad  Statas? 

A    I  don't  baliava  that  was,  and  tha  raason  I 
could  b«  a  littla  aor*  daflnit*  on  that  is  that  kind  of 
thing  I  wouldn't  hava  discussad  with  him  until  aftar  tha 


A    What  was  tha  tins  frama  of  that? 

Q    Wall,  I  hava  tha  messaga,  and  why  don't  wa 
mark  it  and  I'll  show  it  to  you.   But  in  whatavar  ladgar 
paopla  kaap  in  thair  minds? 

A    It  conceivably  is  something  that  I  would  have 
told  him,  I  guess. 

Q    May  '86.   Let's  mark  this  as  the  next  exhibit. 
(The  document  referred  to  was 
marked  Poindexter  Exhibit  ' 
Number  3  0  for  identification.) 

A    It  would  have  depended  on  what  else  was 
happening.   You  know,  a  lot  of. these  things  that  would  be 
on  the  margin  of  whether  I  would  tell  him  or  not  depended 
on  what  else  I  had  to  do  during  the  day. 

Q    You  are  now  looking  at  the  exhibit. 


'*""i'uini  Aooinrn 


1288 


yMil?' 


mm 


293 


1  AT  really  can't  recall. 

2  Q    Wall,  lat  ma  mark  as  tha  next  exhibit  some 

3  handwritten  notes  of  yours  dated  March  25,  1985. 

4  (The  document  referred  to  was 

5  marked  Poindexter  Exhibit 

6  Number  31  for  identification.) 

7  (Pause.) 

8  A    Okay.   This  is  what  I  was  saying  earlier.   I 

9  can't  recall  that,  but  obviously  he  did  discuss  that. 

10  Q    Now  when  you  say  he  discussed  it,  the  note 

11  says  "meeting  with  the  President" .   This  is  your 

12  handwriting,  correct? 

13  A    That's  correct. 

14  Q    "Bud  covered  our  plan". 

15  A    Right. 

16  Q    "Third  country  assistance,  non-lethal  aid, 

17  intelligence  restrictions,  private  humanitarian  aid." 

18  What  do  you  remember  about  "our  plan"? 

19  A    I  don't  remember  that. 

20  Q    Do  you  remember  that  when  you  wrote  it  down 

21  you  wrote  "non-lethal"  aid,  so  you  knew  what  non-lethal 

22  aid  was? 

23  A    That's  right.  .  ,  - 

24  -  Q    And  you  write  "private  humanitarian  aid",  and 

25  you  understood  that  that's  not  the  same  as  aniS? 


1289 


IINCMFIED 


294 


1  A    As  I  told  you  before,  I  can't  recall  this 

2  conversation.   I  mean,  iny  notes  indicate  that's  what  he 

3  discussed,  but  exactly  what  was  said  under  third  country 

4  assistance  — 

5  Q    Admiral,  if  we  step  back  and  try  to  take  an 

6  overview  of  it  this  was  a  period  in  March  of  1985  when 

7  you  were  seeking  to  get  some  relief  fron  the  Boland 

8  Amendment.   Vou  recall  that,  don't  you? 

9  A    Well,  we  were  always  trying  to  do  that. 

10  That's  correct. 

11  Q    I  mean,  you  couldn't  go  back  to  Congress  a 

12  month  after  the  amendment  was  passed,  but  there  came  a 

13  point  when  you  concluded  that  yes,  you'd  try  to  do  it, 

14  right? 

15  X         UB-hura,  correct. 

16  Q    And  you  were  trying  to  come  up  with  a  plan 

17  that  would  be  attractive  to  Congress  so  that  you  could- 

18  get  the  votes;  is  that  correct? 

19  A    That's  correct. 

20  Q    Now  were  you  involved  in  the  legislative 

21  planning? 

22  A    Not  really  until  I  became  National  Security 

23  Advisor  in  January  of  '86. 

24  Q    So  that  before  that  that  would  hive  been 

25  McFarlane? 


iiNaAS!;iFiFn 


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295 


A    And  Don  Fortier,  and  I  worked  on  other  issues. 

Q    But  did  you  understand  that  the  package  that 
they  were  trying  to  sell  to  Congress  involved  presenting 
it  to  Congress  as  what  we'll  do  is  we'll  seek  non-lethal 
aid,  humanitarian  aid,  that  that  was  the  pitch? 

A    It  depends  on  the  time  frame.   You  see,  before 
I  became  National  Security  Advisor  my  position  was  that 
we  shouldn't  make  a  distinction. 

Q    Vou  wanted  to  have  Congress  vote  it  up  or 
down. 

A 
in  1986. 

Q 


That's  exactly  right,  and  that's  what  we  did 
I  wouldn't  compromise. 
But  your  predecessor  did  compromise? 


A    That's  correct. 

Q    And  you  thought  it  was  a  mistake? 

A    I  thought  it  was  a  mistake. 

Q    But  you  understood  that  at  the  very  least  he 
and  some  of  the  others  in  the  White  House  thought  that 
Congress  might  be  more  receptive  to  something  which  was 
called  humanitarian  aid  than  something  which  said  it  was 
going  to  be  for  arms  and  munitions,  right? 

A    That  was  a  generally-held  view. 

Q    And  you  concluded  when  you  became  National 
Security  Advisor  that  this  can't  limp  along  like  this? 

k         That's  correct 


lIMf^J^^^iFIFn 


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1  Q    And  let's  put  Congress  to  the  test? 

2  A    That's  exactly  right. 

3  Q    And  they  will  either  vote  it  up  or  down? 

4  A    That's  right. 

5  Q         And  that  was  a  change  in  philosophy? 

6  A    That's  correct. 

7  MR.  LtON:   Art.hur,  before  you  move  on,  can  I 

8  just  ask  a  question? 

9  KK.  LIMAN:   Vou  can  ask.   Incidentally,  as  I 

10  cover  these  subjects  I  have  no  problem  with  you  breaking 

11  in. 

12  MS.  LiON:   I've  been  trying  to  keep  mine  down 

13  a  little  bit. 

14  EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF  THE  HOUSE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 

15  BY  MR.  LEON: 

16  Q    I  wanted  to  ask  you  who  this  fellow  Godfrey 

17  Sterling  wai  you  were  having  breakfast  with. 

18  A    He's  a  journalist.  Christian  Science  Monitor, 

19  I  believe. 

20  MR.  LIMAN:   You  saw  journalists,  Admiral 

21  Poindexter? 

22  THE  WITNESS:   Not  if  I  could  avoid  it. 

23  -  BY  MR.  LEON:   (Resuming) 

24  Q    This  was  a  meeting  with  the  President,  the 

25  breakfast  the  President  was^havi^<^ jrfith  Godfrej<  Sperling 


the  President  was  having  with 


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that  you  w«r«  bri«fing  him  beforehand  Cor.  And  these 
points  on  your  notes  say  "discuss  Sperling  breakfast, 
private  aid  to  contras." 

Let  me  show  you  -- 

A    I'm  not  quite  sure.   I  think  what  this  means 
is  that  Bud  had  a  Sperling  breakfast. 

Q    Let  me  help  you  out  here,  Admiral.   I'll  hand 
you,  Admiral,  a  copy  of  your  appointments  calendar  for 
that  time  frame.   I've  only  got  one  copy.   But  you  will 
note  on  it  that  you  have  a  notation  "President,  Godfrey 
Sperling  breakfast  at  the  residence",  and  beforehand, 
from  8:30  to  9:00  the  "Presidential  briefing  for 
Sperling"  --  there  is  a  misspelling,  but  "Sperling 
breakfast,  residence  library". 

Now  looking  at  the  notes  that  are  now  Exhibit! 
31  and  comparing  it  to  the  appointment  schedule,  it  woul^ 
appear  that  you  are  making  a  note  reference  there  to  a 
briefing  that  was  given  by  you  — 

A     NO. 

Q    Or  by  Bud  McFarlane. 

A    By  Bud. 

Q    To  the  President  in  anticipation  of  a 
breakfast  the  President  was  to  have  that  morning. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  try  to  make  this  clear. 
The  notes  in  this.  Exhibit  31,  these  are  notes  that  you 


it4.j:»hibit  31,  these  are 

MwUfiCirirn 


• 


1293 


UNCUSSIFIEO 


293 


took  during  the  course  of  the  meeting  with  the  President? 

THE  WITNESS:   That  would  be  my  guess. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Bud  was  doing  the  talking  and 
you  were  jotting  down  notes  about  what  he  was  saying;  is 
that  correct? 

THE  WITNESS:   That's  correct. 

BY  MR.  LEON:   (Resuming) 

8  Q  Does  it  jog  your  recollection? 

9  A    Because  the  way  --  although  I  can't  tell 

10  because  of  the  way  this  is  copied,  I  would  assume  because 

11  of  the  indentations  that  what  3ad  covered  there  was  what 

12  he  was  recommending  the  President  say  at  the  Sperling 

13  breakfast  if  he  was  asked.   That  would  be  my  assumption. 

14  Q    Did  either  you  or  Bud  attend  that  breakfast? 

15  A    I  most  probably  did  not.   Bud  probably  did. 

16  There's  another  peculiar  thing  here.   There  is 

17  a  time  disconnect.   That  schedule  shows  the  breakfast 

18  from  9:00  to  10:00  and  my  note  says  9:30.   I  can't 

19  explain  that. 

20  Q    Do  you  recall  that  the  breakfast  did  take 

21  place? 

22  A    I  don't  recall  the  breakfast.   I'm  certain  it 

23  did. 

24  Q    And  do  you  know  why  the  President  was  meeting 

25  with  Godfrey  Sperling? 


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1  A    V«ah.   Godfrey  Sp«rling  is  a  journalist,   i 

2  b«li«v«  ha's  on  tha  staff  of  tha  Christian  Scianca 
Monitor,  and  ha  has  a  tradition  of  having  a  braakfast.  : 
think  thay  hava  it  onca  a  waak  in  which  ha  invitas  a 
bunch  of  othar  journalists.   It's  got  a  pratty  good 
raputation  in  that  thara  ara  thoughtful  journalists 
attanding  it.   And  I  guass  at  that  tima,  in  March  of  '85, 

8  Pat  Buchanan,  whoavar  was  tha  communications  officar  —  I 

9  guess  it  would  hava  bean  Pat  —  had  no  doubt  convincad, 

10  had  racommendad  and  the  President  agreed,  to  have  -- 

11  invite  Sperling  to  have  his  breakfast  over  in  the 

12  residence. 

13  I  recall  attending  one  of  those,  but  as 

14  National  Security  Advisor  in  1986  with  the  President,  so 

15  it  was  not  a  particularly  unusual  event.   It  didn't 

16  happen  very  often,  though.  

17  Q    Nov  this  was  in  March  of     and^^^^^^^^^H 

18  visit  had  been  a  month  before  that,  in  February  of  '85. 

19  A    If  you  say  so.   I  can't  remember. 

20  MR.  LIMAM:   Yes. 

21  BY  MR.    LEON:       (Resuming) 

22  Q         And  I  believe  Mr.   McFarlane's  testimony  was 

23  that  it  was  at  some  point   in  that  area  of  time,    in  the 

24  spring  of    '85,    that  he  presented  the  card  to  the 

25  President   indicatijig^he  jiew  jBitt^^llt  renewed;  gifts. 


ttXtfl-jfPdtff'tt 


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1 
2 
3 
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6 
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8 
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11 
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14 
15 
16 
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18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
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24 
2S 


MR.  l:maN:   No.   H«  said,  as  I  rtcall  it,  that 
h*  tha  £irst^^^^^|th«  £irst^^^^| 

thing  in  '84. 

BY  MR.  LEON:   (R«suming) 
Q    This  would  hav«  b*«n  th«  r«n«w«d.   It  was  upon 
tha  o£^^^^^^^|visit. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Which  would  hav«  b««n  aarly 
February. 

BY  MR.  L£ON:   (Sasuming) 
Q    That  ther«  was,  or  shortly  th«r«aft«r  th«r« 
was  a  r«n«w«d  gift  with  another  amount.   What  I'm  trying 
to  s««  if  I  can  h«lp  you  recall  is  do  you  know  wh«th«r  or 
not  at  the  tima  this  breakfast  took  place  the  President 
had  been  made  aware  that^^^^Hhad  decided  to  renew 
his  gift  in  a  larger  amount? 

A    I  don't  know,  other  than  what  I've  read  or 
seen  during  my  preparations.   Apparently  the  President 


discussing  it  with  him  at  his 


BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 
Q    Did  you  know  that  at  the  time? 
A    I  didn't  recall  that. 

Q         Did  the  President  ever  tell  you  that  when  he 
finished  the  breakfast  that^^^^had  made.' ;his  offer? 
A     H-  mav  have,  ouv  J.  JU»*-.^»*Ply  «»«"'«  ""^^ 


;:iH(#wff 


1296 


m^mrn 


301 


1  it.   Again,  I  Icnow  this  is  a  big  issu*  for  you  all. 

2  KR.  BECKLZR:   Don't  worry  about  it.   Just 

3  ansvar  tha  quastions. 

4  BY  MR.  LEON:   (Rasuning) 

5  Q    I  guasa  what  I'm  gatting  at  hara  was  Bud 

6  McFarlana  suggasting  to  tha  Prasidant  that  if  tha  issua 

7  caaa  up  tha  Prasidant  should  tall  tha  raportar  Sparling 

8  that  third  country  assistanca  was  sonathing  that  was  part 

9  of  tha  Prasidant 's  hopad-for  plan  to  aid  tha  contras? 

10  A    It  saams  unusual,  doasn't  it? 

11  Q    Lat  ma  gat  an  answar  to  that  quastion  and 

12  than,  Arthur,  you  can  ask  him  whatavar  you  want. 

13  A    I  don't  ramambar  this  masting.   Thasa  are 

14  obviously  my  notas.   Again,  my  notas  wara  not  intandad  as 

15  a  kind  of  racord.   Thay  wara  short-tarm  ramindars,  so  I 

16  can't  b«  sura  what  contaxt  it  was  covaring. 

17  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuming) 

18  Q    Actually  I  think  I  can  show  you  othar 

19  docuaants  that  show  that  this  was  a  lagislativa  packaga, 

20  lagislativa  options  that  wara  baing  prasantad  at  that 

21  tima.   Thara  ara  documants  in  our  racord  now.  And  as  you 

22  know  if  you  look  at  this,  that  Congrass  passad  a 

23  provision  that  authorized  tha  Stata  Dapartmant  to  saak 

24  third  country  assistanca  for  humanitarian  pUrposas,  non- 
25  lathal  aid,  intalliganca  r**zric^Saj\JLvr*   radycad,  and 


1297 


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''rsirjJLViifi-JMi 

302 


th«r«  was  non-l«thal  aid  appropriatad  to  tha  axtent  of 
$27  million. 

So  much  of  what  1»  daacribad  thara  ultimataly 
was  adoptad  within  tha  naxt  nina  months. 

BY  MR.  LEON:   (Rasumlng) 
Q    My  quaation,  Admiral,  is  bacausa  tha  calandar 
indieatas  that  tha  braakfast  was  schadulad  from  9:00  to 

8  10:00  and  bacausa  your  notas  indicata  that  you  mada  tha 

9  notas  at  9:30.   Could  this  hava  baan  your  notas  aftar  the 
.0       braaXfast  had  takan  placa  in  which  you  ara  noting  down 

what  had  baan  discussad  during  tha  braakfast  batwaan  t.^e 

Prasidant  and  tha  raportars? 
A    That's  possibla. 

MR.  BECKLER:   How  would  you  know  from  that 

information? 

•6  THE  WITNESS:   May  I  saa  tha  schadula  again, 

L7       plaaaa? 

18  BY  MR.  LEON:   (Rasuming) 

L9  Q    Yas,  Of  coursa.   Tha  braakfast  is  schadulad 

:o       from  9:00  to  10:00  that  morning,  but  it  might  hava  broken 

up  aarly  at  9:30. 

A    Yas.  You  saa,  Z  think  that  tha  way  you  hava 

dascribad  it  is  fairly  accurata  bacausa  tha  national 

sacurity  briafing  was  hald  aftar  tha  Sparliijg  braakfast 

that  morning  and  tha  mistaka  that  X  mada  is  x'wrota. 


1298 


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303 


1  b«caus«  tha  routin*  tima  was  9:30,  I  just  didn't 

2  rscognizs  that  w«  wars  running  at  10:30,  an  hour  bahind. 

3  So  this  is  probably  a  discussion  with  tha 

4  Prasidant  aftar  tha  Sparling  braakfast. 

5  Q    About  things  that  cama  up  dur%|g  "Iha 

6  braakfast,  if  you  racall? 

7  A    I  simply  don't  racall.   What  would  concaivably 

8  point  to  that  diraction  is  tha  way  it's  indantad  undar 

9  tha  ona  topic  discussed,  Sparling  braakfast,  but  I  can't 

10  ba  sura. 

11  BY  MR.  LZMAN:   (Rasuoing) 

12  Q    Admiral  Poindaxtar,  bafora  wa  braak  for  lunch 

13  I'd  lika  to  go  ovar  just  two  othar  documents.   I'll  marlc 

14  as  tha  naxt  exhibit  a  May  IS,  1986,  memorandum  by  you  for 

15  a  meeting  with  the  NSPG. 

16  (The  document  referred  to  was 

17  marked  Poindexter  Exhibit 

18  Number  32  for  identification.) 

19  Would  you  look  at  this  and  tell  ne  whether  or 

20  not  you  wrote  this  document? 

21  (Pause.) 

22  MR.  BECKLER:  Just  to  clarify  the  record,  I 

23  think  you  said  it  was  a  memo  from  Poindexter,  but  we 

24  ought  to  note  it  was  prepared  by  — 

25  MR.  LIMAN:   It  says  it  was  prepared, by  -- 


1299 


UNEt^lFIED 


304 


1  MR.  BECKLER:   Pr«par«d  by  North  and  Burghardt. 

2  BX  MR.  LIMAN:   (R«suming) 

3  Q    This  is  a  memorandum  you  sent  to  th« 

4  President;  am  I  corract? 

5  A    That's  correct. 

6  Q    And  when  you  sent  something  to  the  President 

7  others  on  your  staff  may  prepare  it,  correct? 

8  A    That's  correct. 

9  Q    But  you're  not  shy  about  making  any  changes  i: 

10  it's  appropriate? 

11  A    That's  correct.   It's  my  memo,  but  I  didn't 

12  prepare  the  draft. 

13  Q    On  that  subject,  you  found  that  Oliver  North 

14  was  a  good  draftsman? 

15  A    Very  good. 

16  Q    Now  in  this  memorandum,  right  at  the 

17  beginning,  you  describe  the  resistance  itself  as 

18  increasingly  desperate  as  available  supplies  are 

19  depleted. 

20  A    Um-huffl. 

21  Q    Is  that  a  fair  description  of  what  you 

22  understood  the  circumstances  of  the  resistance  were  by 

23  May  of  1986? 

24  "    A    It  is  a  fair  description. 

25  Q    And  apart  from  this  written  communlaation  to 


iii^lFite 


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305 


1  th«  Pr«sid«nt  had  you  bri«f«d  him  on  th«  fact  of  your 

2  concerns  that  th*  resistance  was  running  out  of  supplies? 

3  A    I  may  have,  but  I  simply  don't  recall  it. 

4  Q    Would  it  have  been  your  practice,  sir,  given 

5  the  condition  in  which  you  found  the  resistance  to  have 

6  brought  that  to  the  attention  of  the  President? 

7  A    Yes.  And,  you  know,  X  very  likely  did.   But. 

8  again  Z  don't  have  a  recollection  of  a  specific,  and  I 

9  want  to  be  very  careful  here,  you  know.   There's  a  lot  at 

10  stake. 

11  Q    You  do  not  want  to  attribute  —  when  you  say 

12  there's  a  lot  at  stake,  you  do  not  want  to  attribute 

13  knowledge  to  the  President  unless  you  are  certain  of  it? 

14  A    That  is  correct. 

15  MR.  BECKLER:   Just  to  clarify  for  the  record, 

16  I'm  sorry  —  how  do  we  know  this  memo  went  to  the 

17  President?  I  mean,  I'm  just  not  familiar  with  the  foraat 

18  here.   It's  a  memo  for  the  National  Security  Planning 

19  Group,  the  NSPG.   Now  do  we  assume  that  the  President  was 

20  there  or  saw  this? 

21  MR.  LIMAN:   I'm  going  to  show  him  the  minutes. 

22  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

23  .    Q    You  remember  that  the  President  was  at  this 

24  meeting  and  took  a  lively  role,  do  you  not;  Admiral? 

';TOf  SECRET 


I  have  a  vague  recollection  of  the 'fleeting. 


1301 


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306 

MR.  LEON:   Do  you  know  if  th«  Pr.sid.nt  .v.r 
got  th«  D«mo? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  would  b«  surprised  if  h« 
didn't. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

«  Q    L«t's  clarify  som«  things  about  tha  Prasident. 

7  I   maan,  tha  Towar  raport  portrayad  him  as  if  ha  only  read 

8  comic  books,  and  that's  not  your  obsarvation  of  this 

9  Prasidant,  is  it? 

^°  *    °h'  not  at  all.   Tha  Prasidant  would  raad 

11  avarything  that  wa  providad  hini.   in  fact,  wa  had  to  be 

12  caraful.   i  fait  that  wa  had  to  ba  caraful  not  to 

13  ovarburdan  him  with  larga  documents  because  he  would  try 

14  to  raad  tha  whole  thing. 

^'  Q    Now  as  I  look  at  this  memorandum  prepared  by 

16  Korth  and  sent  to  tha  Prasidant  you  presented  various 

17  options  for  trying  to  provide  soma  relief  to  the 

18  resistance,  if  you  look  at  page  two,  right? 

19  A    Right. 

^°  Q    A«d  you  described  it  as,  given  the  urgency  of 

21  tha  situation;  correct? 

22  A    That's  correct. 

23  Q    And  one  was  a  raprogramning  which  would 

24  require  Congressional  approval,  correct?   ; 

25  A    Correct. 


1302 


307 

1  Q    Another  was  a  Presidential  appeal  for  private 

2  donations. 

3  K         Correct. 

4  Q    And  then  a  third  was  for  the  President  hiasei; 

5  to  oak*  an  overture  to  certain  heads  of  state  to  provide 

6  bridge  financing,  correct? 

7  A    Correct. 

8  Q    And  there  you  discussed  in  the  meoorandua  the 

9  liabilities  of  the  last  step,  right? 

10  A    That's  correct. 

11  Q    And  they  were  that  the  public  exposure  would 

12  exacerbate  the  current  partisan  atmosphere;  correct? 

13  A    Correct. 

14  Q    And  what  did  you  mean  by  that? 

15  A    Just  what  I  have  said  before,  that  our 

16  opponents  on  the  Hill  would  not  like  it  and  that  they 

17  would  try  to  take  some  steps  to  preclude  it  from 

18  happening. 

19  Q    And  the  second  was  that  the  foreign 

20  contributors  would  ultimately  expect  that  their  largess 

21  would  result  in  some  kind  of  U.S.  Government  concession 

22  in  their  favor,  and  that  you'v»  discussed  before,  that 

23  when  you  ask  people  for  money  they  may  expect  that  when 

24  they  corse  around  to  ask  for  something  that  you'll  have  t 
2S 


reciprocate,  righ 


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2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

II 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

2S 


That's  gan«cally  tru*. 
Vou  talked  about 


30S 


X    That's  right.   But  Israel  galls  in  a  difftrtnt 
t  h  a  n  ^I^I^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hco  o  p  •  r  a  t  i  0  n 
us  on      pro jcct^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Vf alls    an 
•ntiraly  diffsrsnt  catagory. 

Q    In  that 

A    Thay  don't  n««d  th«  oonay. 

Q    Thay  don't  naad  monay  and  thay  don't  naad 
waapons  and  thay  don't  naad  U.S.  Sovarninant  support? 

A    Mo.   Tha  diffaranca  is  that  thay  don't  naed 
U.S.  Sinaneial  assistance,  whereas  the  Israelis  do,  and 
it  was  ay  assessment  that  the  reasons  that 
helped  was  an  entirely  different  reason. 

Q    Well,  putting  aside  what  their  motives  were  in 
helping,  did  McFarlane  ever  tell  you  that  in  1985  Oliver 
North  had  asked  him  to  go  back  tofl^H^^Hfor 
money? 

A    I  said  that  before. 

Q    And  McFarlane  didn't  want  to  go  back  to  them 
for  more  money;  correct? 

A    That's  correct.   I  think  that  the  reason  for 
that,  though,  was  slightly  different  than  maybe  you  are 


imagining. 


iMtSSIFIFB 


1304 


309 

1  Q    w«ll,  I'm  not  imagining  it.   I  )tnow  what 

2  HcFarlan*  said.   But  did  you  have  a  discussion  with  hin 

3  on  why  h«  didn't  want  to  go  back  to^^^^^^^^for  sora 

4  money? 

5  A    Z  vaguely  have  a  racollaction  of  that. 
C  Q    What  is  tha  vagu*  raeollaction? 

7  X    Tha  vagu*  raeollaction  was  that  whan  tha  issua 

8  of^^^^^^^^fcontributing  to  tha  support  of  the 

9  democratic  resistance  first  arose  at  some  point  —  and 

10  again  I'm  fuzzy  on  the  time  frame  —  my  recollection  is 

11  that  Mr.  McFarlane  asked  Colonel  North  to  prepare  an 

12  estimate  as  to  how  much  money  he  thought  it  would  take 

13  for  the  democratic  resistance  to  get  into  a  commanding 

14  position  in  about  a  year. 

19  And  my  recollection  is  that  Colonel  North 

16  responded  that  it  would  take  about  $25  million.   Now  that 

17  was  way  underestimated,  in  hindsight,  and  my  recollection 

18  is  that  when  Mr.  McFarlane  had  the  discussions  with  the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  and  again   was     a 

20  this  —  but  my  understanding  of  the  conversation  was  when 

21  they  got  around  to  talking  about  amounts  of  money  that 

McFarlane  to^^^^^^^H  that 

23  thought  it  would  take  about  $25  million. 

24  And  my  impression  of  his  reluctance  to  go  back 

25  toJ^^^^^Hwas  related  to  the  fact  that  he  'didn't  want 


1305 


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310 


to  go  bacJc  and  indicata  that  w«  had  way  undarastimatad 
what  it  was  going  to  talc*. 

Q  Can  you  think,  Admiral,  about  any  aituation  in 
your  axparianca  whara  tha  Unitad  Statas  Govarnmant  didn't 
Incur  soma  ovarrun? 

A    Yas.   Tha  Navy's  baan  doing  a  pratty  good  job 
of  building  ships  racantly. 

Q         Wall,  it's  not  axactly  tha  ultimata  — 

MR.  B£CKL£R:   I  ata  braakfast  at  5:30  in  tha 
morning. 

MR.  LIMAM:    I  want  to  show  him  tha  minutes  o; 
tha  maating  and  than  that's  the  last  subject  before 
lunch. 

(Tha  document  referred  to  was 
marked  Poindexter  Exhibit 
Number  33  for  identification.) 
MR.  LIMAN:   What  I'll  do  is  rather  than  have 
you  read  all  of  this  before  lunch,  why  don't  you  coma 
L9       back  five  minutes  early  and  read  it? 
iO  MR.  BECKLER:   Sounds  good. 

21  (Whereupon,  at  12:45  p.m.,  tha  taking  of  the 

22  instant  deposition  recessed,  to  reconvene  at  1:45  p.m., 

23  tha  sama  day.) 


uNcmtfe 


.^N^V 


1306 


UNCt^SSIflE 


311 

1  AFTERNOON  SESSION 

2  (2:09  p.m.) 

3  Whar«upon, 

4  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER, 

5  th«  witnass  h«r«in,  having  b««n  previously  duly  sworn, 

6  was  furthsr  axaminsd  and  tastifisd  as  follows: 

7  EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF  THE  SENATE  COMMITTEE  -  R«sum«d 

8  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

9  Q    You  racall  this  masting,  I  taks  it? 

10  A    I  have  a  vagus  racollsction  of  it. 

11  Q    And  sven  if  you  don't  rsmambsr  ths  words  of 

12  Director  Cassy  whsrs  hs  says  that  ths  ammunition  will 

13  soon  run  out  and  so  on,  you  do  remember  the  tone  of 

14  desperation  in  terms  of  the  contras;  am  I  correct? 

15  A    Yes.   As  I've  testified  before,  my  impression 

16  was  at  that  time  in  1986  we  )cnew  the  contras  were  going 

17  to  be  in  difficulty  before  we  were  going  to  be  able  to 

18  get  the  $100  million. 

19  Q    And  then  you  and  the  others  reviewed  the 

20  various  options  for  bridge  financing;  am  I  correct? 

21  A    That's  correct. 

22  Q         And  if  you  look  at  the  bottom  of  page  nine,  it 

23  is  Secretary  Shultz  who,  in  reference  to  reRrogramming, 

2  4  says  that  "the  suggestion  is  to  go  to  the  Comra^ittees  and 

25  persuade  them  to  reprogram  some  money  from  defense  for 

1  ay  r  ^._  ^ 


1307 


uim-fi^^jncy         312 


non-military  aid  to  th«  contra*.   Personally,  I  think 
it's  breathtaking  in  improbability.   It  would  b«  better 
to  go  to  other  countries." 

Do  you  remember  him  in  substance  saying  that 
you  were  not  going  to  get  reprogramming? 

A    I  don't  remember  hearing  him  say  that,  but 
that  is  consistent  with  my  understanding  of  what  his  view 

8  was. 

9  Q    And  in  the  end,  if  you  look  at  your  sunmary, 

10  you  say  that  "George  will  prepare  for  the  President  a 

11  list  of  countries  which  could  be  approached."  That's  the 

12  sentence  I'm  focusing  on. 

13  A    Right. 

14  Q    Nov  was  such  a  list  approached? 

15  A    I  don't  recall.   My  recollection,  which  I 

16  think  I  covered  on  the  second  of  May,  was  that  I  have  a 

17  vague  recollection  of  Secretary  Shultz  discussing 

18  verbally  with  the  President  the  question  of  third  country 

19  support  in  one  of  his  weekly  meetings,  which  would  be  the 

20  three  of  us  —  the  President,  Secretary  Shultz  and  me. 

21  Q    In  the  end  you  testified  that  you  considered  a 

22  group  of  countries  that  you  mentioned  at  the  last  session 

23  and  that  ultimately  Brunei  was  selected;  correct? 

24  A    Yes.   Brunei  was  —  I  can't  recall  that  that 

25  was  a  Presidential  decision. 

■TOP  SECRET^  '"/*   . 


1308 


UNMSIflED 


1  Q    w«li,  that's  th«  question  I  was  going  to  put. 

2  Was  it  a  Prasidantial  decision? 

3  A    I  don't  baliav*  so.   That  would  hav*  baan,  you 

4  know,  a  tactical  matter  that  really  was  in  Secretary 

5  Shultz'  bailiwick  to  decide  at  that  point,  and  I  agreed 

6  with  Brunei.   So  once  a  decision  was  made  to  go  ahead  to 

7  third  countries  I  would  only  have  reraised  it  with  the 

8  President  if  I  had  disagreed  with  it. 

9  Q         Was  the  President  ever  told  while  you  were 

10  National  Security  Advisor  that  Brunei  had  been  approac>.ed 

11  and  had  agreed  to  contribute? 

12  A    I  don't  recall  that. 

13  Q    When  you  say  you  don't  recall  that,  does  that 

14  mean  you  don't  recall  whether  he  was  told  or  that,  to  the 

15  best  of  your  recollection,  he  was  not  told? 

16  A    I  was  aware  that  Secretary  Shultz  was  going  to 

17  approach  Brunei  and  I  thought  it  was  going  to  happen  on 

18  his  trip  to  Southeast  Asia,  which  was  the  original  plan. 

19  I  don't  recall  ever  knowing  myself  that  Brunei  had  agreed 

20  and  had  contributed,  so  I'm  almost  certain  the  President 

21  —  that  I  did  not  tell  him,  because  I  don't  recall  being 

22  aware  of  that,  and  possibly  not  even  until  after  I  left 

23  the  White  House.  .' 

24  Q    Let  me  ask  you  something  about  an  epchibit  you 

25  produced  last  time,  which  was  this  memo  which  was  marked 


1309 


UNCLASSIFIED 


314 


1 

2 

3 

4 

S 

< 

7 

• 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

1« 

17 

It 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

2S 


as  Exhibit  8,  which  waa  from  you  to  Mr.  McFarlane,  and  i 
direct  your  attention  to  th«  pa?*  which  has  th«  Batas 
Bark  00041,  and  it  saya:  Central  Aaarica. 

MR.  BECXLER:   Do  you  have  anothar  copy  of  it? 

MR.  LIMAN:  Yas.  X  can  raad  it.   it 'a  only 
on*  aantanca.         « 

BY  MR.  LIMAN;   (Raauaing) 


Q    Z  taka  it  that  this  waa  a  paraonal  mamorandum 
to  Bud? 

k        That 'a  correct. 

Q    And  it  waa  not  one  that  you  ahared  with  the 
President  of  the  United  Statea? 

A    That 'a  correct. 

Q    Or  with  anyone  else? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Kow  last  tine,  to  start  finishing  up  on  the 
cq/itra  aspect  for  the  aonent,  last  tine  you  described 
Oliver  North's  role  in  the  support  of  the  cbntras  during 
the  Boland  period.   Do  you  remember  giving  a  d*scription? 


1310 


mm 


...  .XT  w. ^^5 

1  A    Vaguely.   I'd  hav«  to  go  back  and  rer«ad  it 

2  again. 

3  MK.  BECKLER:   Do  v«  hav«  a  copy  of  th« 

4  tastioony  h«r«? 

5  MR.  LIMAX:   Don't  you  have  on*  h«ra? 

6  MR.  BECKLER:   No.   W«  gav*  it  back.   Who  was 

7  th«  Callow  who  cama  and  got  it?  Mayba  wa  ought  to  gat  it 

8  to  taka  a  look  at  it. 

9  MR.  LIMAN:   Vou  can  look  at  nina. 
10  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuming) 

IX  Q    But  you  dascribad  hia  at  paga  60  whare  you 

12  said  that  tha  contras  didn't  hava  any  sort  of  logistics 

13  organization  of  thair  own  and  Colonal  North  had  to  figure 

14  out  a  way  to  privataly  arranga  a  logistics  organization. 

15  And  a  littla  furthar  on  you  dascribad  him  assantially  as 

16  tha  switching  point  that  mada  tha  whola  systam  work. 

17  Do  you  racall  that? 

18  A    Yas,  Z  racall  that. 

19  MR.  LEON:   What  paga  is  that,  Arthur? 

20  MR.  LIMAN:   That's  paga  60  and  63. 

21  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuming) 

22  Q    Did  you  avar  dascriba  to  tha  Prasidant  of  the 

23  Unltad  Statas  what  Colonal  North  was  actually  doing? 

24  A    I  don't  racall  discussing  that  with^ him  at  any 
23  laval  of  datail. 


1311 


PKSlFiEfl 


316 


1  Q    Or  w«r«  you  pr«s«nt  wh«n  Colon«l  North's  role 

2  was  described? 

3  A    I  don't  rscall  that. 

4  Q    You  said  that  ha  was  tha  action  officar  on 

5  Cantral  Aaarica  and  that  was  somathing  which  tha 

6  Prasidant  had  baan  told,  I  assuma,  or  Icnaw. 

7  A    Yas.   Tha  Prasidant  Icnaw  that  Colonal  North 

8  was  tha  action  officar  on  Cantral  Amarica. 

9  Q    But  did  ha  know,  so  far  as  you  can  say,  that 

10  North  was  filling  this  vacuum  that  had  baan  laft  by  the 

11  CIA  dropping  out? 

12  A    Mall,  I  don't  think  —  you  see,  in  the 

13  President's  mind  he  wouldn't  Icnow  the  details  of  what  CIA 

14  was  doing,  what  Defense  was  doing,  what  State  was  doing, 

15  and  what  v«  were  doing.   He  knew  the  job  was  getting 

16  done.   The  exact  way  we  were  getting  it  done  was 

17  something  that  would  not  have  been  particularly  relevant 

18  to  him. 

19  Q    Is  it  fair  to  say  that  because  of  the 

20  Congressional  restrictions  that  the  NSC  ended  up  with  an 

21  operational  role  that  was  not  normally  the  role  of  the 

22  NSC?   Is  that  fair? 

23  *    A    Well,  I  thinJc  it's  a  mistake  to  fay  that  the 

24  NSC  doesn't  have  an  operational  role.   It  is  not  an 


2S 


organization  that  »its  irv  an  ix.arx,  Aower  and  tHinks  grand 


1312 


aNCUSSIFlE 


I  317 


1  thoughts.   I  don't  think  it's  •v^r  b««n  that  way,  not  in 

2  this  Administration  or  in  any  Administration,  and  thtir 

3  operational  involvamsnt  is  always  a  function  of  ths 

4  circumstances . 

5  From  an  oparational  standpoint,  i  think  it 

6  would  b«  fair  to  say  that  on  Csntral  America  w«  war*  more 

7  operational  than  in  other  areas,  but  that  was  not  the 

8  only  operational  area  we  were  involved  with.   We  were 

9  heavily  involved  in  Libya. 

10  Q    Were  you  more  operational  than  you  had  been 

11  when  the  CIA  was  free  to  handle  the  contras? 

12  AX  think  that  would  be  fair  to  say. 

13  Q    Did  you  or  anyone  in  your  presence  describe  to 

14  the  President  of  the  United  States  that  the  NSC  had 

15  picked  up  some  of  the  CIA's  responsibilities? 

16  A    Again,  I  just  can't  recall  a  specific 

17  incident.   No  doubt  Mr.  McFarlane  in  1984  or  '85  did 

18  cover  that  at  some  point,  but  I  simply  can't  recall  it. 

19  Q    You  can't  recall  it.   What  I'm  getting  at  is 

20  did  anyone  sit  around  the  table  with  him  when  you  were 

21  there  and  say,  look,  we  have  a  problem.   The  CIA  has  been 

22  handling  the  supplying  of  the  oontras.   They  supply  them 

23  with  munition*.   They  give  them  training.   They  give  them 

24  direction.   Now  under  Boland  they  can't  do  any  of  that 

25  and  we  at  the  NSC  are.gqincf  to  have  to  pick  up 'that  task. 


1313 


0 


Cinr 


313 


Did  som«on«  say  anything  lik«  that  in 
substanc*  in  your  pr«s«nc«  to  th«  Pr«»id«nt? 

A    As  I  hav«  said,  I  can't  rscall  it.   i  think 
it's  important  to  add,  though,  that  I  don't  thinJc  that 
it's  accurats  to  say  that  v«  picksd  up  all. 
Q    I  didn't  say  all. 

A    Because  clsarly  w«  couldn't  hava  as  many 
psopls  in  country,  obviously. 
9  Q    You   did  pick  up  soma  of  what  thay  vera  doing. 

10  A    Soma.   And  primarily,  frankly,  tha  part  that 

H       ws  picked  up  was  the  direct  contact  with  the  contra 

12  leadership.   By  and  large,  I  mean,  if  you  look  at  the 

13  while  scheme  of  things,  that  was  the  biggest  aspect. 

14  Q    Well,  let's  talk  about  some  of  these  other 

15  things  and  let  me  see  what  you  knew  about  it.   There  was 

16  testimony  by  General  Secord  of  a  meeting  in  July  1985 

17  with  North  and  Calero,  after  which  General  Secord  said  he 

18  was  asked  by  North  to  take  over  the  logistics  operation 

19  for  the  contras.   Did  North  ever  tell  you  that? 

20  A    He  did  at  some  point.   Z  can't  place  the  time 

21  frame.   But  I  realized,  based  on  reports  from  Colonel 

22  North,  that  he  was  a  little  concerned  about  the  way  the 

23  coQtras  were  handling  funds  and  the  wiseness  of  some  of 
-24       their  decisions. 

2S  Q    Did  he  mention  any?  '/ 

imsuMiTicn 


82-726  0-88-43 


1314 


319 

1  A    I  can't  r«call  anything  specific.   Th«  thing, 

2  I  gu«ss,  that  stands  out  ths  biggsst  was  that  thsrs  was 

3  still  a  lot  of  intsrnal  disagrssmsnt  with  the  contra 

4  Isadsrship  amongst  thsmsslvas  and  Colonel  Korth  worked 

5  very  hard  to  bring  them  around  to  a  consolidated 

6  viewpoint. 

7  Q    Did  he  tell  you  that  as  a  result  of  his 

8  concern  about  how  the  centres  were  husbanding  their  money 

9  that  he  had  asked  Secord  to  step  in? 

10  A    As  I  said,  at  some  point  —  and  I  assume  it 

11  was  '85  but  I  can't  really  place  it  in  a  time  frame 

12  connected  with  any  other  event  —  I  was  aware  that  Dick 

13  Secord  was  going  to  essentially  set  up  and  run  a  private 

14  logistics  organization. 

15  Q    And  did  you  realize  that  money  that  was  being 

16  raised  for  the  eentras  by  North  or  with  his  assistance 

17  would  then  be  channeled  to  Secord *s  organization? 

18  AX  don't  think  I  really  understood  that.   It 

19  would  not  have  been  surprising  or  inconsistent,  but,  you 

20  know,  trying  to  recall  that  time  period  Z  don't  think 

21  that  was  absolutely  clear. 

22  Q    For  example,  Admiral',  you  testified  last  time 

23  that  — 

24  A    See,  I  never  really  got  involved 'much  in  the 

25  details  of  the^ftnapcing  dv   how  tW money  was  moving. 


SCCR^ 


1315 


320 

1  Q    Wall,  you  t«stifi«d  'llaT  tim«  that  wh«n  th« 

2  S«cr«tary  of  Stat«  vai  to  approach  Brunai  Atorams  had  a 

3  discussion  with  you  as  to  how  ths  monsy  should  bs 

4  channslsd. 

5  A    That's  my  rscollsction. 

6  Q    And  you  told  hin  to  sp«a]c  to  North? 

7  A    That's  my  rscollsction. 

8  Q    Did  you  havs  an  understanding  as  to  whsther 

9  North  was  going  to  havs  thsm  ssnd  ths  monsy  to  Calsro  or 

10  to  this  privata  nstworlt  headad  by  Sacord? 

11  A    I  don't  think  I  really  mada  that  kind  of 

12  distinction. 

13  Q    Did  you  avar  tall  tha  Prasidant  of  tha  United 

14  States  that  Sacord,  at  tha  request  of  North,  had 

15  undertaken  this  logistics  operation  for  the  contras? 

16  A    As  I  think  I  testified  on  the  second  of  May,  : 

17  can  recall  at  one  point  a  specific  conversation  with  the 

18  President  in  which  I  told  his  that  Dick  Secord  was  a 

19  great  patriot  and  had  been  very  helpful.   I  can't  recall 

20  whether  when  I  said  that  that  it  was  in  both  the  context 

21  of  contra  support  and  Iran  or  whether  it  was  just  Iran. 

22  But  again  that  would  have  been  a  level  of 

23  detail  that  I  really  wouldn't  have  bothered  the  President 

24  with. 

25  Q    But  there  had  tpjt^jo^^onfxt   to.' even  that 


Q    But  there  had  to  be  sonj^e 


VM 


UNCUSSIFIED 


321 


1  r«marJc  to  th«  Pr«sid«nt.   I  m«an,  you  wouldn't  just  say 

2  to  th«  Prasidant  X  is  a  patriot. 

3  X    But,  saa,  what  I  can't  ranambar,  Mr.  Liman,  is 

4  whathar  that  was  in  tha  contaxt  of  briafing  him  on 

5  eentras  or  on  Iran.   I  just  don't  ramambar. 

6  Q    You  just  don't  racall. 

7  You  tastifiad  last  tima  about  what  tha  tarm 

8  Pro j act  Damocracy  maant  to  you  as  usad  by  Colonal  North, 

9  corruct? 

10  A    Corract. 

11  Q    Did  you  avar  usa  that  tarn  with  tha  Prasider.t 

12  of  tha  Unitad  Stataa? 

13  A    No,  bacausa  it  wasn't  my  tarm.  Whan  I  would 

14  raad  raports  from  Colonal  North  that  rafarancad  that  Z 

15  always  translatad  it  into  tha  privata  natwork. 

16  Q    Did  you  avar  briaf  tha  Prasidant  on  tha 

17  privata  natwork? 

18  A    Not  spacifically,  othar  than  just  tha  ganaral 

19  sub j act  of  privata  support  and  third  country  support. 

20  But  X  would  not  hava  charactarizad  it,  probably,  as  a 

21  natwork. 

22  Q    And  whan  you  briafad  him  on  privata  support 

23  and-  third  country  support  is  thara  anything  that  you 

24  racall  othar  than  what  you'va  tastifiad  on  tha?  subjact? 

25  X    Tha  only  way.  rr  ^  Ji^w>r  ^  <=*n '  t  racall  again 


.-'?^?•it<^(ffili: 


1317 


UNCkA»ED 


322 


1  ■pacific  convarsations,  but  my  g«n«ral  approach  would 

2  hav«  b««n  to  tal)c  to  hia  at  th«  l«v«l  of  datail  of  saying 

3  that  thara  was  privata  support  and  third  country  support 

4  and,  you  )cnow,  concaivably  at  soma  point  in  '36  I  oay 

5  hava  told  hia  that,  you  know,  tha  support  was  running  out 

6  and  claarly  wa  discussad  it  in  that  KSPG  oaating. 

7  But  I  just  simply  wouldn't  hava  gottan  into 

8  that  laval  of  datail  with  him 

9  Q    But  as  Z  undarstand  it,  whan  you  say  you 

10  wouldn't  hava  gottan  into  that  laval  of  datail  you  hava 

11  no  racollaction  of  avar  saying  to  tha  Prasidant,  whan  you 

12  talkad  about  third  country  support  or  privata  support, 

13  tha  nana  of  any  country  that  was  giving  support? 

14  A    That's  corraet. 

15  Q    And  did  you  avar  tall  tha  Prasidant  that  any 

16  of  this  support  was  solicitad  by  a  mamJoar  of  tha 

17  govarnaant  as  opposad  to  just  baing  voluntaarad? 

18  A    No,  bacausa,  again  going  back  to  tha 

19  baginning,  on^^^^^^Hsupport ,  which  was  tha  first 

20  support,  I  was  told  by  Mr.  McFarlana  that  ha  had  informed 

21  tha  Prasidant  about  that,  so  I  was  always  oparating  under 

22  tha  assumption  tha  Prasidant  was  awara  of  that  and  I 

23  donl^t  — 

24  Q    Wa  don't  hava  to  rapaat  that  tastiiaony  unless 

25  you  hava  something  additional.  '.; 


1318 


UNCUSSIFIED 


323 


1  A    I  lost  my  train  of  thought. 

2  Q    I  could  tail  you  what  you  w«r«  saying.   I 

3  aslc«d  you  wh*th«r  getting  into  that  l«v«I  of  detail  aaant 

4  that  you  had  aver  told  hia  th«  nam*  of  a  counttY  and  you 

5  said  that  Mr.  McFarlans  told  you  that  h«  had  told  the 

6  Prasidant  about  that  first^^^^Bcontribution  and 

7  tharafor*  you  oparatad  on  tha  assumption  that  tha 

8  Prasidant  knaw.   That's  what  I  thought  you  wara  saying. 

9  A    That's  corract. 

10  Q    If  it  comas  to  you,  would  you  maXa  sura  to 

11  stop  ma? 

12  A    I'll  coma  back. 

13  MR.  LEON:   In  that  vain,  Arthur,  could  I  ask 

14  on*  question? 

15  BY  MR.  LEON:   (Rasuaing) 

16  Q    Adairal,  ona  question  in  that  regard.   Did  ycu 

17  have  any  knowledge  of  any  U.S.  Governaent  official 

18  soliciting  funds? 

19  A    Thank  you. 

20  Q    Soliciting  funds  for  the  centres  other  than 

21  what  you've  testified  to  about  Robert  McFarlane  going  to 

22  a  third  country?  Other  than  that  do  you  have  any 

23  knowledge  of  any  U.S.  Sovernaent  official,  Oliver  North 

24  specifically,  as  well  as  others?  , 

25  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuaing) 


1319 


UNCIASSIRED 


324 


Q    And  oth«r  than  what  happ«n«d  In  1986  with 
Brun«i? 

A    I  do  not,  and  that  was  th«  point  I  was  going 
to  mak*  a  aoasnt  ago,  was  that  it  would  not  b«  fair  to 
indicats  that  I  knsw  that  anybody  solicited  nonsy.   m 
fact,      in^^^^^^Asusinsss     not  sur*  how  th« 
conversation  wsnt. 

8  Q    Admiral,  I  don't  want  to  gst  into  having  you 

9  charactsrizs  a  convarsation  that  you  wsrsn't  at,  and 
10       that's  what  you  don't  want  to  do. 

^^  A    That's  what  I  don't  vant  to  do. 

^^  Q    Vou'va  alraady  tastirisd  to  your  undsrstandir.g 

13  of  ths  way  in  which  tha  privata  fundraising  too)c  placa, 

14  whara  North  would  talk  about  tha  naads  of  tha  contras  and 

15  than  would  laava  tha  platform  and  thay  would  go  across 

^^       tha  straat  to  s««  Channall,  and  thara  was  soma  cars  taken 

17  that  North  would  not  do  something  that  might  ba  overt 

18  solicitation.   Is  that  fair? 

19  A    That's  correct. 

20  Q    And  why  was  that,  if  it  was  perfectly  okay  to 

21  solicit  money? 

22  K        May  I? 

23  -       (Pause.) 

24  The  point  that  I  want  to  make  here  is  that  my 

25  understanding  of  Mr.  Mcfarlane'|  concerns  about'.' 


of  Mr.  McFarlane's.conci 

iimi  AfijCinifn 


1320 


UNCmFIED 


325 


1  solicitation  ara  not  related  to  th«  Boland  Aaendment  but 

2  they  are  related  to  other  legislation  that  puts 

3  restrictions  on  government  officials  soliciting.   Nov  i 

4  don't  know  exactly  what  that  law  is,  but  that  was  always 

5  ay  understanding  about  why  he  was  so  sensitive  about 

6  Ollie  not  soliciting. 

7  There  is  other  legislation,  and  my  attorneys 

8  have  -- 

9  MR.  BECKLER:   We're  not  going  to  take  the 

10  stand. 

11  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

12  Q    I  don't  want  to  get  into  that.   But  were  you 

13  aware.  Admiral,  that  the  CIA  had  taken  the  position  that 

14  under  the  Boland  Amendment  they  were  not  going  to  permit 

15  any  of  their  officials  to  do  solicitation  of  money? 

16  A    I  was  aware  of  that. 

17  Q    And  whether  or  not  a  court  will  ultimately 

18  conclude  that  it  does  or  doesn't  ban  solicitation,  you 

19  were  aware  that  there  was  a  concern  that  Congress  might 

20  feel  that  this  was  an  end  run  around  the  law?  That  would 

21  be  fair,  wouldn't  it? 

22  X    The  way  I  would  prefer  to  describe  my  concern 

23  was  that  if  Congress  was  aware  that  countries  had 

24  contributed,  whether  we  solicited  or  didn't  solicit,  t.'-.at 

25  they  would  then  take  it  out  on  those  countries  'in  the 


1321 


UNCUSSIiilED 


326 


1  foralgn  assistance  appropriation. 

2  Q    w«ll,  was  thar«  soma  conc«rn  on  your  part  also 

3  that  if  Congrass  laarnad  that  th«  Administration  fait 

*  fraa  to  solicit  that  it  might  draw  avan  mora  rastrictive 

5  lagislation? 

6  A    That  was  a  possibility.   Tha  othar  possibility 

7  was  that  it  might  lassan  tha  prassura  on  tha  whola  system 

8  for  us  to  gat  baclc  into  tha  funding  operation,  which  to 

9  ma  was  important,  that  we  ought  to  be  back  in  there. 

10  Q    Now,  Admiral,  did  North  ever  tell  you  that  he 

11  had  discussions  with  Ambassador  Tambs  before  Tambs  took 

12  up  his  post  in  Costa  Rica? 

13  A    I  can't  recall  specifically  that  he  told  me 

14  that.   I  probably,  you  know,  was  aware  in  general.   It 

15  was  pretty  much  routine  for  new  Ambassadors  going  out  ts 

16  most  araas  of  tha  world  would  pay  a  call  on  the 

17  responsible  officer  on  the  NSC  staff,  and  that's  not  just 

18  true  with  Central  America  but  it's  true  in  other  places 

19  in  the  world. 

20  Q    Did  you  know  Tambs? 

21  A    Yes.   Ambassador  Tambs,  as  he  testified,  was 

22  on  tha  NSC  staff  for  a  period  of  time  before  he  was 

23  confirmed. 

24  Q    Did  North  ever  tell  you  that  he  had  asked 

25  Amibassador  Tambs  to  open  up  a  southern  front  £p 


1322 


UNCbWIED 


327 


Nicaragua? 


A    By  ny  r«collactton  that's  a  littla  too 
•xplicit.   X  )cn«w  that  Aabassador  Tambs  was  working  in 
order  to  mak*  th«  southam  front  aora  viable, 


^■^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  But 

7  think  Z  avar  put  it  in  my  aind  or  haard  it  daaeribad 

8  bafora  thasa  hearings  in  tha  tares  of  opening  a  southern 

9  front.   I 'a  not  saying  that's  not  inconsistent,  but  I 

10  just  didn't  hear  it  in  those  terms. 

11  Q    How  did  you  hear  that?  Froa  whoa? 

12  A    Well,  for  exaapla,  as  Z  recall  we  discussed 

13  that  briefly  when  I  was  down  in  San  Jose  in  Oeceaber  of 

14  '85. 

15  Q    Old  you  ever  discuss  it  with  North  other  than 

16  during  your  trip  to  Central  Aaerica? 

17  A    Z  Bay  have.   Z  don't  have  a  recollection. 

18  '  Q    Oid  you  know  that  North  had  given  out  these 

19  KL-43S  to  a  whole  group  of  people  operating  in  central 

20  America? 

21  A    Z  knew  that  after  the  fact. 

22  Q    What  does  "after  the  fact"  aean? 

23  .A    After  they  had  been  distributed.  Z  had  no 

24  problea  with  it.   In  fact,  as  Z  testified  on  the  second 
2S 


of  May,  we  were  concerne 


1323 


UNCLASSm 


323 


2  Q    w.ii,  wh.n  you  look  «t  th«  whol.  plctur.  of 

3  what  North  was  doing  I  don't  toow  wh«th«r  you  haard 

4  Owan's  taitiaony,  but  Owan  is  a  friand  of  North,  no 

5  raaaon  for  hia  to  ambroidar.   Sacord  gava  tastinony. 

6  Ha's  also  a  friand  of  North,  and  ha  tastifiad  about  what 

7  North  was  doing  in  tha  way  of  diracting  or  suparvising  or 

8  guiding  this  oparation. 
Is  thara  anything  that  you'va  haard  in  tha 

tastiaony  that  wa'va  takan  up  to  now  that  North  was  doing 
in  taras  of  tha  contras  that  surprisad  you?  Mall,  I'll 
maka  it  avan  aasiar.   Start  with  shocking  you. 

^3  MR.  BECKLER:   Can  I  answar  that? 

^*  MR.  LIMAN:   I'd  lika  hia  to  answar  that 

15  bacausa  thara  ara  othara  in  tha  Administration,  including 

16  tha  Prasidant,  who  say  I  didn't  know  that  ha  was  doing 

17  this,  and  X  want  to  know  whathar  tha  Adairal  was 

18  aurprisad  by  anything  ha's  haard. 

"  MR.  BECKLER:   First  of  all,  I'd  lika  to  objact 

20  on  ralavant  to  that.   Tha  Admiral's  —  aftar  tha  public 

21  hearings  —  attituda  about  what  ha  haard,  about  how  ha 

22  faals  about  it  now  is  totally  irralavant  to  any 

23  la^itiaata  inquiry  tha  Sanata  is  involvad. 

24  MR.  LIMAN:   I  can  taka  hia  through  avary  fact 

25  that  has  baan  tastifiad  to  about  what  North  wai  doing  and 


I  tastifiad  to  about  what 


1324 


UmSSIHED 


329 


1  ask  him  did  you  know  i;his. 

2  MR.  BCCKLER:   W«ll,  do  it,  than.   But  to  ask 

3  hia  what  h«'s  shockad  about  — 

4  BY  MR.  LZMAN:   (Rasuaing) 

5  Q    Admiral,  did  you  know  ha  was  using  a  man  by 

6  tha  nama  at   Owans  as  a  couriar? 

7  A    I  knaw  that. 

8  Q    Did  you  approva  of  it? 

9  A    In  assanca  I  did. 

10  Q    Old  you  know  that  ha  was  disbursing  cash  to 

11  tha  contra  laadars? 

12  A    It  would  dapand  on  tha  tima  frama.  As  I'va 

13  tastifiad  on  tha  sacond  of  May,  I  raalizad,  ha  informad 

14  ma  at  ona  point  that  ha  had  cash.   I  told  him  aithar  in 

15  that  cenvarsation  or  ona  shortly  tharaaftar  that  I  didn't 

16  think  that  was  a  good  idaa,  thara  wara  parcaption 

17  problams  involvad  with  handling  cash  and  that  ha  should 

18  maka  arrangamants  soma  othar  way. 

19  So  if  it  was  during  that  tima  pariod  I  would 

20  hava  known  it. 

21  Q    Did  you  know  that  that  cash  that  ha  had  was 

22  baing  usad  for  contra  laadars? 

23  A    I  don't  think  I  spacifically  knaw  that.  My 

24  undarstanding  was  it  was  baing  usad  for  contra  axpansas 

25  and  to  tha  axtant  that  that  was  a  contra  axpariia  than 


1325 


330 

y«s,  I  would  hav«  )cnown  that. 

Q    Did  you  )cnow,  as  t*sti£i«d  by  G«n«ral 
Singlaub,  that  North  actually  approved  weapons  purchases 
for  the  contras? 

A    I  was  aware  that  he  was  wor)cing  with  the 
contra  leadership  and  with  Secord  on  what  weapons  they 
needed.   I'm  not  sure  —•  I  would  not  characterize  what  I 

8  )cnew  about  it  as  knowing  he  nade  the  decision,  but  that— 

9  Q    Did  you  know  the  he  was  making  decisions  as  to 

10  where  contributions  should  be  sent  for  the  contras? 

11  A    Well,  in  effect  I  knew  that,  and  that's  why 

12  when  Secretary  Abrams  called  me  I  told  him  to  talk  to 

13  Colonel  North. 

14  Q    And  did  you  authorize  him  to  do  the  things 

15  that  I  have  just  reviewed  with  you  except  for  the  keeping 

16  of  the  cash? 

17  A    Again,  depending  on  time  frame,  when  I  was 

18  Deputy  that  would  not  have  been  my  role  to  approve  that 

19  or  disapprove  it,  because  Mr.  McFarlane  was  following 

20  that  more  closely  than  I.   I  was  aware  of  it.   I  agreed 

21  with  it.   I  didn't  have  any  problem  with  it.   And  when  I 

22  became  National  Security  Advisor  I  told  Colonel  North  to 

23  continue  on  course.  , 

24  Q    Did  you  know  that  he  was  engaged  in  making 

25  efforts  to  tloA  M/A  ^iWfM^^P§^ri^^   drops  co'Uld  be  made 


mfitkiwvftitnr 


1326 


UNCli^mD 


331 


1  to  contras  within  Nicaragua? 

2  A    Z  was  awara  that  ha  had  a  rola  in  that.   I'm 

3  not  sura  that  ha  was  tha  ona  that  was  making  th« 

4  dacisions,  and  I'm  still  not  sura  of  that  point. 

5  Q    Wall,  I  didn't  cpaita  say  that  ha  was  making 

6  tha  dacisions.   Did  you  know  that  ha  was  angagad  in 

7  -   coordinating  that  effort? 

8  A    As  I  tastifiad  on  tha  second  of  May,  my  view 

9  of  his  role  was  as  a  switching  point  in  tha  whole  process 

10  of  supporting  the  democratic  resistance  during  the  period 

11  of  tha  Boland  Aaandnent. 

12  Q    Did  you  believe  that  the  contras  could  have 

13  survived  without  someone  playing  tha  role  that  Korth  was 

14  playing? 

15  A    1  don't  believe  they  could  have. 

16  Q    Did  you  ever  tall  that  to  the  President? 

17  A    That  is  a  possibility,  but  I  don't  have  a 

18  specific  recollection  of  it. 

19  Q    You  know,  you  used  a  different  word  here. 

20  Usually  you  say  you  don't  have  a  recollection.  This  time 

21  you  said  that's  a  possibility. 

22  MR.  BECKLER:   You  finally  got  a  rise  out  of 

23  hfm. 

24  MR.  LIMAN:   There's  something  in  the  back  of 

25  this  man's  mind  and  I  want  to  know  it. 


1327 


9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
13 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 

25 


UNIASSIFIED 


332 


THE  WITNESS:   I  was  vary  proud  and  plaasad  to 
hava  an  opportunity  to  work  with  Colonal  North  and  I  Celt 
vary  strongly  about  tha  stataaant  I  mada  that  I  didn't 
thinX  that  tha  contras  would  hava  survivad  if  it  hadn't 
baan  for  Colonal  North,  and  I  vary  likaly  would  hava 
passad  that  on  to  tha  Prasidant.   But  I  don't  racall  a 
spacific  incidant  of  doing  it. 

BY  MR.  LIHAN:   (Rasuming) 

You       about  tha  air  fiald^^^^^^^^H 
Did  you  know  that  North  had  had  a  rola  in  that? 

A    Yas.   I  can't  say  t>.at  I  knaw  all  of  tha 
datails  I  knaw      ha  ^^^^Bj^^^^^^^^^^M 

and  Dick  Sacord  and  othars  had  baan  involvad  in  gatting 
that  air  fiald  put  in  and  did  discuss  that  with  tha 
Prasidant. 

Q  Did  you  know  that  ha  had  arrangad  with  Falix 
Rodriguaz  to  gat  halp  from  tha  Cantral  Aaarican  country 
whara  Falix  was  working? 

A    Yas.   I  would  not  put  it,  though,  so  much  in 
taras  of  Falix  Rodriguaz,  but  I  was  awara  that  Colonal 
North  had  oada  soma  arrangamantsi 


Q    And  whan  you  say  mada  arrangamanXs ,  did  you 
know  what  kind  of  arrangamants  ha  mada  othar  than  just 


arrangamants? 


iiMPi  Aooinrn 


1328 


1 

2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


UNMsra 


333 


A    My  r«coll«ction  is  that  Colonal  North  had 
direct  contact  withi 


A  ^^^^^^Hand  that  frankly  was  contrary  to  what  I 
hav*  heard  in  hearings  up  h«r«.  That  I  thinJc  was  mora 
instrumental  than  anything  that  Mr.  Rodriguez  did. 

Q    How  do  you  know  that  h«  had  that  contact  with 


Bacausa  Colonel  Korth  told  oe  that, 
[didn't  tell  you? 
Ididn't  tell  me,  although  I  have 


Q    But^^^^^^^^^friever  said  that  it  was  North 
who  he  was  working  with? 

A    No,  not  that  I  recall. 

Q    Old  North  ever,  to  your  knowledge,  promise  any 
of  these  neighbors  of  Nicaragua  that  if  they  helped  the 
centres  the  United  States  would  find  ways  of  giving  than 
assistance? 

A    I  don't  know  of  any  specific  incident  like 
that. 

Q    Was  that  a  matter  of  — 

A    I  think  that,  you  know,  my  general  view  was 


that  it  was  in  the  interest  of  XhAl^c 


countries! 


1329 


I 

2 
3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 

10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
IS 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 


iwmsff/, 


A  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^B^B^^^^^^^^^HOf  course 
during  my  trip  through  Cantral  Aaarica 

in  all  of  thos*  countries  X 
encouraged  them  to  support  the 


MR.  BECXLER:   The  answer  is  no. 
THS  WITNESS:   Okay. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 
Q    Nov  there's  been  testimony  at  the  hearings 
about  the  RIG.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  RIC  on  Central 
America? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Would  you  tell  us  who  were  the  meaibers  of  the 
RIG,  as  you  understood  it? 

MR.  BECKLER:   What  is  a  RIG? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Restricted  Interagency  Croup. 

THE  WITNESS:   The  RIG  was  established,  by  my 


iiikiAF  Q^^airicn 


1330 


UNGIASSIFIED 


335 


1  r«coll«ction,  anyvay,  somatim*  probably  in  '82,  and  I 

2  think  It  was  astablishad  by  an  NSDO. 

3  Q    Who  vara  tha  —  I'm  aaJcing  you  not  to  tall  ma 

4  what's  in  a  writtan  constitution  but,  as  you  undarstood 

5  it,  sitting  thara  as  National  Sacurity  Advisor,  who  did 

6  you  considar  to  b«  tha  manbars  of  tha  RZS  on  Cantral 

7  Aaarica. 

8  A    It,  in  my  mind,  eonsistad  of  tha  Assistant 

9  Sacratary  of  stata  for  Latin  Aaarican  Affairs  as  tha 

10  Chairman,  from  tha  NSC  staff  usually  Colonal  North  — 

11  wall,  Colonal  North  and  than  usually  also  Ray  Burghardt 
or  his  pradacassor,  Constantina  Mangas*)^^^^^^^|^^^H 

13  ^^^^^^^H  ^"^  from  tha  CIA  it  would  hava  baan  tha 

14  Diractor  of  tha  Cantral  Amarican  Task  Forca,  and  I  would 

15  not  nacassarily  hava  limitad  it  just  to  him.   Thara  wars 

16  probably  othar  mambars  of  tha  CIA,  soma  raprasantativa 

17  from  tha  Undar  Sacratary  of  Oafansa's  offica.   My 

IS  undarstanding  is  that  was  usually  Nastor  Sanchaz.   And 

19  tha  Assistant  to  tha  Chairman  of  tha  JCS. 

20  Q    So  did  you  hava  any  undarstanding  that  within 

21  this  RIG  thara  was  a  — 

22  A    No.  ^^^^ 

23  Q    Supar-RIG  of  North^^^^Hand  Abrams? 

24  A     No. 

25  (A  briaf  racass  was  takan.) 


1331 


mmmm 


336 


BY-MR.  LIKAM:   (Resuming) 

Q    I.«t'«  talk  about  Iran.   Wh«n  did  you  first 
l«am  that  th«  United  Statas  was  ambarkad  on  an 
initiative  with  Iran? 

A    w«ll,  it  was  somstias  in  th«  lattar  half  of 
'85.   I  bacam*  awara  —  basad  on  reports  froa  Mr. 
McFarlana  to  a*  I  bacaaa  awara  of  tha  Israeli  proposal. 

8  So  to  answer  your  question  I  don't  reaeaber  precisely, 

9  but  it  was  soaetiae  between  July  and  Noveaber. 

10  Q    Was  it  before  the  President's  operation  or 

11  after? 

12  A    I  can't  place  it. 

13  Q    Was  it  before  or  after  the  Israelis  shipped 

14  tha  508  TOWs? 

15  XI  think  I  becaae  aware  of  it  before  that,  so 

16  that  would  place  it  soaetiae  before  the  last  of  August,  : 

17  guess. 

18  Q    Did  Mr.  McFarlane  tell  you  that  the  President 

19  had  approved  it? 

20  A    I  have  a  vague  recollection  of  a  telephone 

21  call  that  Mr.  McFarlane  got  froa  the  President  when  the 

22  President  was  at  Caap  David  one  weekend  and  Mr. 

23  McFarlane,  I  believe,  reported  that  conversation  to  ae 

24  and  I  think  that's  as  best  I  can  place  it.  ' 

25  Q    What  was  the  conversation  about? 


1332 


UNCIiSSIflED 


337 


1  A    That  th«  Prasidant  agr««d  that  th«  Israali 

2  proposal  should  b«  pursued.   You  s««,  my  racollaction  oe 

3  It  is  vary  fuzzy,  and  sy  rscollsction  was  prompted  by,  I 

4  think,  somsthing  that  Mr.  KcFarlan*  said  in  tha  hearings. 

5  I  do  recall  that  the  President  was  at  Camp  David  one 

6  weekend  and  Mr.  McFarlane  told  oe  about  a  telephone  call 

7  that  he  had  gotten  from  the  President  and  that  it  was 

8  related  to  the  Israeli  proposal.   That's  as  best  as  Z  can 
9 

10  Q    Admiral,  you  understood  that  the  Israeli 

11  proposal  involved  sending  some  TOWs? 

12  A    I'm  not  certain  when  I  became  aware  of  that. 

13  Q    When  he  told  you  that  the  Israeli  President 

14  had  given  some  kind  of  green  light  to  the  Israeli 

15  proposal,  what  was  the  proposal  that  he  gave  his 

16  blessing? 

17  A    That's  what  I  don't  have  a  good  recollection. 

18  MR.  BECKL£R:   Have  you  got  memos? 

19  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

20  Q    I  have  something  I  could  show  you,  but  I  don't 

21  know  whether  you've  seen  it  and  we'll  mark  it  as  the  next 

22  exhibit,  a  July  13,  1985  document  from  the  White  House  to 

23  th»  Secretary  of  State's  aircraft,  and  it's  by  Mr. 

24  McFarlane.  '  , 

25  (The  document  referred  to  was 


133S 


UNCtASSIFIED 


338 


1  marked  Poind«xt«r  Exhibit 

a  Vnafv   34  for  identification.) 

3  Juat  ae  that  whan  you  raad  it  you'll  know  tha 

4  quaation  you'ra  going  to  ba  aakad  in  tha  and,  I'm  not 

5  going  to  ba  quaationing  you  about  tha  marita  of  tha 

6  contanta.   It 'a  juat  whathar  you'va  aaan  thia  doeumant 

7  and  doaa  it  rafraah  your  racollaction  that  thay  vara 
•  talking  about  100  TOWa  and  hoatagaa. 

9  (Pauaa.) 

10  A    I  don't  think  I'va  aaan  thia  bafora.   I  may 

11  hava,  but  it  juat  doaan't  ring  any  balla. 

12  Q    Doaa  it  rafraah  your  racollaction  at  all  that 

13  tha  propoaal  that  vaa  undar  conaidaration  involvad  tha 

14  tranafar  of  aoma  TOWa  by  laraal  and  tha  axpactation  that 

15  thara  would  ba  soma  hoatagaa  ralaaaad? 

16  A    Tha  TOWa  juat  don't  atand  out  in  my  mamory.   I 

17  claarly  during  this  tima  frama  knaw  tha  hoatagaa  wara 
IS  involvad,  but  I  frankly  just  can't  racall  TOWa  baing 

19  aantionad.  And  —  wall,  go  ahaad.  All  I  waa  going  to 

20  say  is  that  I  don't  baliava  it  waa  until  aomatima,  it  may 

21  avan  hava  baan  as  lata  as  tha  maating  with  Nlr  on  tha 

22  aacond  of  January,  that  I  raaliiad  that  wa  had  a 

23  cenaitmant  to  sail  tha  Israalia  tha  508  TOW^. 

24  That's  what  makaa  ma  a  littla  akaptical 


1334 


UNCIiSSffi 


339 


1  Q    Did  you  know  in  S«pt«mb«r  of  1985  that  th« 

2  Israelis  had  shipped  TOWs? 

3  AX  think  at  soma  point  aft«r  th«  hostag*  —  the 

4  first  on«  was  w«ir.   Aft«r  w«ir  was  r*l«as«d  I  think  my 

5  rscollsction  is  that  I  was  awar*  that  TOWs  had  bean 

6  shipped. 

7  Q    Did  Bud  McFarlans  tsll  you  that  thars  was  a 

8  linkaga  batwaan  tha  ralaasa  of  Wair  and  tha  Israali 

9  shipnant  of  TOWs? 

10  A    Yas.   I'va  got  a  vdgua  raeollaction  of  that. 

11  Q    And  is  what  you  don't  hava  a  claar 

12  raeollaction  of  that  tha  Unitad  Statas  had  committad  to 

13  raplanish  thosa  TOWs? 

14  A    That's  corract.   I  don't  think  that  that  was 

15  claar  to  aa  until  soDStima  latar  and  aayba  avan  as  lata 

16  as  tha  January  aaating  with  Nir. 

17  Q    You  vara  not  prasant  at  tha  briafing  of  tha 

18  Praaidant  in  tha  hospital? 

19  A    Ko. 

20  Q    Or  tha  naating  in  August  of  1985  in  tha 

21  rasidanca  at  which  this  was  discussad  with  tha  Sacratary 

22  of  stata  and  Sacratary  of  Oafansa? 

23  .A    That's  corract. 

24  Q    Did  McFarlana  — 

25  A    Lat  ma  ba  caraful  hara.   What  I  miaSad  was  an 

iiMM  tooincn 


1335 


UHty^^l^D 


340 


1  NSPG  m««ting  that  was  in  August,  th«  first  w««k  in 

2  August.  I'm   not  sur*  whsrs  that  masting  was. 

3  Q    Wall,  thara  was  a  oaating  in  tha  rasidanca  as 

4  tha  Prasidant  was  racuparating. 

5  A    Okay.   I  was  not  prasant  for  that. 

6  Q    Wara  you  prasant  at  any  maatlng  at  that  tima 

7  in  which  thay  wara  discussing  Israali  shipmant  of  TOWs? 

8  A    Probably  during  that  tima  pariod  that  would 

9  hava  baan  discussad  at  9:30,  but  Z  don't  hava  a 

10  racollaction  of  it. 

11  Q    Tha  authorization  of  shipmant  of  missilas  to 

12  Iran  would  hava  baan  contrary  to  Unitad  Statas  policy  at 

13  that  tima,  would  it  not  hava  baan? 

14  A    It  would  hava  baan,  on  tha  faca  of  it, 

15  contrary  to  our  statad  objactiva,  that's  corract. 

16  Q    Did  w«  hava  — 

17  X    Z  would  lika  to  gat  mora  into  that  at  soma 

18  point. 

19  Q    Mayba  wa  can  go  into  It  now.  Wa  did  hava  a 

20  program  callad  Oparation  Staunch,  didn't  wa? 

21  A    That's  corract. 

22  Q    And  that  was  a  program  that  was  dasignad  to 

23  discouraga  our  al lias  from  sailing  waapons  to  Iran;  am  I 

24  corract? 

25  A    That's  corract.        _  ^      •'; 


1336 


UNCkASSra 


341 


I 

2 

3 

4 

9 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

2S 


Q    tiiiitia   it  also  fair  to  say  that  aftar  a  pariod 
o£  v«ry  cold  ralations  with  Iraq  that  you  vara  awara  that 
th«  Stat*  Dapartmant  had  baan  trying  to  davalop  soma 
relationship  with  Iraq? 

A    At  this  point  lat  aa  —  th«  policy  objactiva 
h«r«  was  to  and  th«  Iran-Iraq  war  with  no  winnars  and  no 
losars.  w«  didn't  want  Iran  to  b«  tha  victor;  on  tha 
othar  hand,  wa  didn't  want  Iraq  to  b«  tha  victor.   Our 
official  position,  public  position,  was  ona  of 
. neutral i 


Tha  raason  that  wa  pushad  our  allias  not  to 
ship  arms  had  as  its  policy  objactiva  an  and  to  the  war. 
Tha  afforts  to  staunch  tha  flow  of  arms  was  a  mathod  to 
achieve  an  end,  which  was  the  policy  objective. 

Q    Well,  I  understand  that.   But  the  shipment  of 
aissiles  to  Iran  was  a  deviation  from  this  policy. 

A    From  our  stated  position  with  regard  to 
shipment  of  arms  to  Iran,  that's  correct.   It  wasn't 
necessarily  inconsistent  with  our  policy  objective, 
though. 

Q  It  would  not  be  inconsistent  with  our  policy 
objective  if  it  would  have  the  effect  of  shortening  t.ne 
war  as  opposed  to  prolonging  it,  right?       ^ 

iiKif^Xf^iripn 


1337 


UNCLfr»ED 


342 


1  A    It  wouldn't  b«  inconsistent  it   avantually  it 

3  brought  an  •nd  to  th«  war,  not  with  Iran  winning  but,  in 

3  oth«r  words,  our  objactivs  was  to  hav«  soma  influanca  on 

4  th«  Iranian  govarnaant. 

5  Q    But  wa  had  up  until  than  not  authorizad  any 

6  ona  of  our  allias  to  ship  arms  to  Iran,  corract? 

7  A    That  is  corract. 

8  Q    Can  you  axplain  to  ma  why  if  you  had  baan  told 

9  at  that  tima  that  wa  wara  authorizing  shipmant  of  arms  to 

10  Iran  it  wouldn't  hava  laft  soma  imprint  on  your  mamory? 

11  A    Wall,  I'm  not  sura  I  can  answar  that. 

12  MR.  B£CKL£R:   Ha ' s  testifiad  that  ha 

13  ramambarad  that  thara  wara  TOW  missilas  shippad.   It 

14  wasn't  lilca  ha  navar  ramambarad  it.   Your  quastion  is 

15  whan  did  ha  ramambar  it. 

16  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuming) 

17  Q    Tha  issue  is  whathar  ha  knew  that  wa  had  — 

18  A    Wa  had  considered  even  before,  as  the  record 

19  indicates,  before  the  Israelis  came  in  with  their 

20  proposal,  w«  had  considered  internally  on  the  KSC  staff 

21  tha  wisdom  of  limited  arms  sales  to  Iran. 

22  Q    That  was  part  of  that  NSDD  process? 

23  .A    That's  correct. 

24  Q    Were  you  involved  in  that  process? 

25  A    Aa  a  reviewer  and  recommender  to  Hii., 


1338 


mu^»B 


343 


McFarlan*.   I  didn't  actually  participata  In  tha  drafting 
of  it. 

Q    War*  you  awar*  o£  tha  raaction  of  tha 
Sacratary  of  Dafansa  and  tha  Sacratary  of  Stata? 

A    Ganarally. 

Q    And  that  thay  vara  opposad  to  shipping  arms? 

A    Yas,  for  diffarant  raasons. 

8  Q    But  thay  cama  out  with  tha  saaa  bottom  lina? 

9  A    Yas. 

10  Q    What  was  your  position  as  a  racomaandar  to 

11  McFarlana? 

12  AX  can't  racall.   You  maan  vhathar  I  thought 

13  tha  shipmant  of  a  limitad  amount  of  arms  was  appropriate? 

14  Q    Right. 

15  A    Z  was  in  favor  of  that. 

16  Q    Had  you  daalt  with  Graham  Fullar  on  this  at 

17  tha  Agancy? 

18  A    Ko,  Z  didn't  daal  with  him;  tha  staff  did. 

19  g    So  you  just  don't  hava  a  racollaction  of 

20  whathar  you  wara  told  at  that  tima,  in  tha  fall  of  1985, 

21  that  wa  had  comnittad  to  raplanish  tha  Israali  TOWs? 

22  A    As  I  hava  said  all  along,  that  tima  pariod  of 

23  July,  August,  Saptambar,  Octobar  and  Novambar  is  vary 

24  fuzzy  in  my  mind  bacausa  I  was  not  fully  inVolvad  and 

25  fully  informad. 

Isl 


1339 


UNiASSIFIED 


344 


1  MR.  BECKLER:   In  that  Isau*. 

2  THE  WITNESS:   In  that  Isau*.   And  what  I  was 

3  avar*  of  I  supportad  and  usually,  whan  I  don't  hava  tha 

4  diract  raaponaibility  for  tonathing,  I  just  don't  —  if  : 

5  agraa  with  it  and  I  assuaa  that  aoaabody  is  handling  it 

6  and  is  handling  it  proparly,  I  just  don't  gat  haavily 

7  involvad  in  it. 

8  BY  KR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuaing) 

9  Q    Wall,  was  tha  Prasidant  briafad  in  your 

10  prasanca  prior  to  Nqvambar  1985  en  th«  fact  that  W«ir 

11  caaa  out  bacausa  Israal  shippad  ams? 

12  A    Ha  probably  was,  but  I  don't  hava  a 

13  racollaetion. 

14  Q    Do  you  racall  any  discussion  of  what  tha  naxt 

15  stap  would  ba  in  tha  initiativa  aftar  Wair  cams  out? 

16  A    Z  don't  racall  that. 

17  Q    You  do  racall,  bacausa  wa  want  ovar  it  last 

18  tiaa,  that  whan  Mcfarlana  want  ovar  to  tha  susmit  in 

19  Ganava  you  got  pull ad  into  that  HAWX  shipmant? 

20  A    That's  corract,  from  tha  standpoint  that 

21  Coaaandar  thoapson  callad  aa  and  said  that  Mr.  McFarlana 

22  had  callad  Colonal  North  to  ask  hia  to  work  on  an  Israal i 

23  aircraft  problaa. 

24  Q    And  wa  lookad  ovar  soma  PROF  notas  that  you 
29  racaivad  at  that  tina.   wara  you  told  in  Novaakrar  of  '85 

1  -    iiiicii  LO-aitlLn 


1340 


uNCusno 


345 


1  b«for«  McFarIan«  w«nt  to  G«n«va  that  h«  had  b««n  visited 

2  by  Rabin? 

3  A    That  Mr.  McFarlan*  was  vi«it«d  by  Rabin? 

4  Q    Yas,  just  bafora  ha  laft  for  Sanava. 

5  A    I  don't  ramambar  that. 

6  Q    Do  you  racall  — 

7  A    I  could  hava  baan,  but  I  just  don't  ramambar. 

8  Q    Do  you  racall  that  avan  bafora  McFarlana  want 

9  to  Sanava  thara  was  discussion  about  tha  fact  that  tha 

10  Israalis  would  ba  shipping  soma  HAWXs  to  Iran  and  that  we 

11  would  ba  gatting  hostaga  back? 

12  A    I  can't  racall  that. 

13  Q    Do  you  racall  spaaking  to  aithar  Colin  Powell 

14  or  to  tha  Sacratary  of  Dafansa  to  task  than  to  locate 

15  HAWKS  to  raplaca  tha  Israeli  HAWKs? 

16  A    I  raaambar  at  least  ona  or  maybe  more 

17  conversations  with  Colin  Powell  on  that  subject.   I  don't 

18  ramaabar  tha  tima  frame. 

19  Q    What  ara  tha  discussions  that  you  remember 

20  with  Colin? 

21  A    Asking  hin  about  availability. 

22  Q    Availability  of  HAWKs? 

23  -    A    HAWKS.   I  think  probably  —  I  can't  recall. 

24  Q    Does  tha  numJaar  500  HAWKs  stand  out  in  your 

25  mind? 


-IS41 


UNCUSSiflED 


346 


1  K         No*;  it  doaan't  stand  out.   May  hav«  diseuss«d 

2  cost  with  hin,  although  Z  frankly  doubt  it.   it  was  mora 

3  availability  and  tiaing  bacausa  Z  guass  my  concarns  would 

4  hav«  baan  vhathar  thay  had  to  ba  takan  out  o£  stock  and 

5  what  impact  that  would  hava  on  military  raadinass  and  so 

6  forth. 

7  Q    Who  askad  you  to  maka  thasa  inquiras  of 

8  Pewall? 

9  A    Z  can't  racall.   Z  assuma  it  would  ba  Mr. 

10  HcFarlana,  but  Z  frankly  can't  racall.   Z  do  racall 

11  convarsations  with  Powall. 

12  Q    Do  you  racall  tha  convarastions  with  Powall  in 

13  tha  contaxt  of  supplying  tha  HAWKs  to  Zran  or  to  Israel 

14  to  raplaca  shipmants  of  HAWKs  that  thay  would  ba  making 

15  to  Iran? 

16  A    Z  may  net  hava  axplainad  to  Ganeral  Powall 

17  axactly  why  I  wantad  to  know  tha  information.   I  don't 

18  ramambar  it. 

19  Q    But  whathar  you  axplainad  it  to  him  or  not, 

20  you  undarstood  what  tha  purposa  was? 

21  A    I  undarstood  that,  oh,  yas.  But  I'm  not  sura 

22  Z  axplainad  that  to  him. 

23  .-      Q    Do  you  racall  Powall  axprassing  any  obj action 

24  to  you  about  sanding  HAWXs  to  Iran? 

25  A    Ha  »«X  y«rY  liJi;^!:^  h^av*. 


ml 


1342 


UNCLASSIFIED 


347 


1  Q    Why  ia  that  that  h«  may  vory  likaly  hava, 

2  Adairal? 

3      A    Wall,  Sacratary  Walnbargar  frankly  vantad  to 

6  to  indicata  that  ha  didn't  undarstand  tha  stratagic 

7  significanca  of  Iran.   I  think  ha  claarly  doas,  but  ha 

8  had  a  pratty  strong  position  in  that  raspact,  and  so 

9  Ganaral  Povall  almost  always  raflactad  tha  Sacratary's 

10  viaw  vary  accurataly. 

11  Q    Adsiral,  did  Colin  rswall  gat  lagalistic  on 

12  bahalf  of  tha  Sacratary  in  sayir.g  why  you  shouldn't  ship 

13  thasa? 

14  AX  can't  racall  that.   Ha  may  hava. 

15  Q    Did  ha  talk  about  tha  Ams  Export  Control  Act? 

16  A    It's  possibla,  but  I  don't  ramambar  it. 

17  Q    Admiral,  I  want  to  ask  you  if  at  any  tiaa 

18  batvaan  Kovambar  of  '8S  until  you  laft  your  position  as 

19  National  Sacurity  Advisor  did  anyona  say  to  you,  you 

20  know,  this  shipnant  that  took  placa  in  Novambar  of  '85  is 

21  tha  ona  shipnant  that  has  craatad  a  problan  for  us  under 

22  tha  law? 

23  -A    Tha  only  thing  that  I  can  racall  —  lat's  saa. 

24  I'm  trying  to  think. 

25  (Paus4 


1343 


348 

1  Th«  parson  that  said  somathlng  IlXa  that  — 

2  and  Z  can't  racall  th«  exact  coaaant  —  but  Ed  Maasa  said 

3  aoBathing  Ilka  that  in  a  maating,  and  Z  rathar  suspact  it 

4  vaa  tha  maating  that  Z  had  with  Ed  Maasa  and  Bill  casay 

5  on  Thursday,  tha  20th,  as  naar  as  Z  can  placa  It.  I'o 

6  sura  that  Ed  was  tha  ona  that  mada  a  point  similar  to 

7  that,  and  Z  was  just  trying  to  placa  tha  occaaion.   Z 

8  think  it  was  tha  maating  on  tha  20th. 

9  MR.  BECKLER:   That 'a  tha  20th  of  Kovambar 

10  1986? 

11  THE  WZTMESS:   Twantiath  of  Novambar,  1986. 

12  BY  MR.  LIMAM:   (Rasumlng) 

13  Q    Do  you  ramambar  anything  mora  of  what  ha  said 

14  on  that  sub j act? 

15  A    Hall,  tha  purposa  of  this  maating  was  to 

16  discuss  tha  brlaflng,  tha  Informal  brlaflng,  that  I  was 

17  going  to  provlda  to  tha  two  Intalllganca  commlttaas  in 

18  tha  Whlta  Housa  situation  room  on  tha  following  day,  and 

19  Olraetor  Casay  was  going  to  coma  up  to  tha  Hill  and 

20  tastlfy  bafera  tha  two  commlttaas,  and  Z  had  askad  both 

21  Bill  Casay  and  Ed  Maasa  —  Ed  had  offarad  to  halp  aarllar 

22  In  tha  month. 

23  -  And  as  wa  bagan  to  raport  to  Congrass  Ed's 

24  offar  to  halp  waa  mainly  assoclatad  with  tha  quastion  of 

2 5  tha  Pras idant '  s.  J W£^ty  Jt^A*F»W».  Ji»*ly  not/ifca 


1344 


UNCMSSiflEO 


349 


1  provision.   So  th«  discussion  —  that  mssting  was  sat  up 

2  to  discuss  tha  briaCings  and  haarings  tha  following  day, 

3  and  by  that  tima  wa  wara  awara  that  Mr.  McFarlana's 

4  racollaction  of  what  happanad  in  Novarabar  was  diffarant 

5  from  what  Sacratary  Shultz  racallad. 

6  And  that  was  a  problam  for  us  bacausa  nona  of 

7  tha  rast  of  us  knaw  or  could  racall  tha  origins  of  tha 

8  Novambar  shipmant,  and  tha  quastion  hingad  on  whathar  tha 

9  Prasidant  had  approvad  it  bafora  or  aftar,  and  bacausa  va 

10  wara  uncartain  of  that  fact  in  that  oaating  wa  agrsad 

11  that  tha  following  day  wa  would  sioply  say  that  thara  had 

12  baan  a  shipmant  in  Novambar  of  '85  by  tha  Israalis  but  we 

13  wara  still  looking  into  tha  datails  of  it  and  wa'd  ba 

14  back  to  tha  Committaas  aftar  wa  had  tha  datails. 

15  And  sematima  in  that  convarsation  Ed  said  that 

16  on  both  tha  Saptambar  shipmant  of  TOWs  and  tha  Novambar 

17  shipmant  of  HAWXs,  that  —  I  don't  want  to  put  words  in 

18  his  mouth,  but  it  was  somathing  along  tha  lina  that  it 

19  would  maka  a  diffaranca  whathar  tha  Prasidant  approvad  it 

20  ahaad  of  tima  or  aftarvards,  or  words  to  that  affact. 

21  Q    Did  Powall  avar  say  to  you  during  this  pariod 

22  whan  you  war*  talking  to  him  about  tha  HAWKs  that  you 

23  would  hava  to  giva  notica  to  Congrass  undar  tha  Arms 

24  Export  Control  Act? 

25  A    You'ra  talking  about  what  tima  framlT  now? 

■  ilWl^l*iftirirn 


1345 


\mmB 


350 


1  Q    w«ll,  I  b«li«v«  your  conversations  with  Pow«ll 

2  v«r«  in  November  ot    '85. 

3  A    Z  can't  recall  that.   He  oay  have  said  that 

4  but  I  just  don't  recall  it.   At  soae  later  point,  but  I 

5  think  this  was  in  '86,  that  issue  came  up  again,  and  he 

6  eventually  sent  me  a  memo,  as  I  recall,  that  had  been 

7  sent  to  him  by  an  Army  logistics  agency.   And  I'm  a 

8  little  confused  about  my  recollection  of  that  and  the 

9  conversations  in  November. 

10  Q    If  you  look  at  Exhibit  1,  which  is  the  notes 

11  that  you  produced  last  time,  on  November  25,  1985,  you 

12  have  "hostages",  and  then  "one  to  Tehran,  22",  and  then 

13  an  arrow  pointing  to  two.   What  does  that  all  mean? 

14  AX  don't  know  what  that  means.   Obviously  when 

15  I  was  going  through  that  earlier  I  tried  to  recall  what 
14  that  means. 

17  Q    What  do  you  use  an  arrow  for? 

18  (Pause.) 

19  A    My  speculation  is,  and  I  can't  be  sure,  is 

20  that  it  probably  means  one  shipment  to  Tehran  on  the  22nd 

21  and  you  get  out  two  hostages.  That's  probably  what  it 

22  means,  but  I'm  not  certain  of  that.   In  fact,  that  just 

23  occurred  to  me  as  I  was  looking  at  it. 

24  Q    And  then  the  next  thing  just  has  a  box  with 

25  "hostages' 


I",  and  that  means  ^t,  was^dl^cussed? 


1346 


UNCtSSSIf![B 


351 


1  A    Dlscussad  som«  aspect  of  it  —  no  tallin?  what 

2  aspact,  though. 

3  Q    And  than  following  12/2/85  you  hava  a  nota 

4  indicating  lik*  a  chacklist,  I  would  call  it,  "gat 

5  dabriaf  from  Ollia".   That'*  corract? 

6  A    Um-hua.   I  don't  Icnow  what  sub j act,  though. 

7  Q    Wara  you  awara  that  at  that  point  North  was  in 

8  contact  with  Sacord  and  othars  on  this  hostaga  andaavor? 

9  A    I  wouldn't  call  it  tha  hostaga  andaavor.   On 

10  tha  Iranian  projact. 

11  Q    On  tha  Iranian  project.   Tha  Iranian  project 

12  had  as  an  ingredient  — 

13  A    A  component. 

14  Q    Catting  tha  hostages  out. 

15  A    That's  correct. 

16  Q    Mow  I  will  show  you  as  an  exhibit  a  memo  of 

17  Oacambar  4,  1985,  and  I'd  like  you  to  look  at  that. 

j_g  (The  document  referred  to  was 

2,9  marked  Poindexter  Exhibit 

20  Number  35  for  identification.) 

21  Would  you  read  this  to  yourself  and  we'll  go 

22  over  it? 

23  (Pause.) 

24  "  Do  you  remember  this  message?    .' 

25  XI  have,  ak  vagu*  .5««i0l-;«p'i^n  of  parti  of  it. 


1347 


29 


DNifflfe 


352 

1  don't  r«ffl«mto«r  all  of  it,  but  I'm  sur«  I  saw  it, 

2  Q  YOU  )cn.w  by  th«  tim.  you  r.c.iv.d  this  m.ssag. 

3  who  Copp  was? 

*  A    Y«s. 

5  Q    And  if  you  looJc  at  th«  msssag.  do  you  r.meaber 

«  bsing  told  that  tha  shipnant  of  tha  18  HAWK  aiasilas  went 

7  awry  bacausa  tha  Iranians  wara  saaking  a  waapons  systam 

8  that  could  stop  tha  Soviat  raconnaissanca  flights? 

9  A    I  hava  a  vary  strong  mamory  of  that  point. 
^°  Q    And  do  you  racall  that  North  communicatad  to 

11  you  a  naw  proposal  which  consistad  of  tha  50  I-HAWKs  and 

12  tha  3,300  TOWS  with  saquantial  ralaasa  of  tha  hostages? 

13  A    Yas. 

^*  Q    And  do  you  racall  that  tha  President  was 

15  briefed  on  this  plan  initially  on  January  5,  1985? 

1*  MR.  BECKLZR:   '86? 

^7  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuning) 

^^  Q    '85.   I  seen,  December  5,  1985. 

^'  A    I  don't  hava  a  vivid  memory  of  that.   It  is 

20  possible.   What's  the  date  on  this? 

21  Q    I'm  basing  this,  I  will  tell  you,  frankly  on 

22  the  President's  own  transcriptions  of  notes  which  he  made 

23  available  to  us. 

24  -    A    His  diary? 
Q    Y««,  sir.   You  hav«  for  that  data  Jran  Finding 

IINfiffr^iFIFR 


1348 


353 

1  in  your  diary,  your  not«s,  and  wa'va  gon«  ovar  that. 

2  A    It  was  at  about  that  tim*  fram*  --  s««,  my 

3  recollection  of  this  is  a  littl*  diffarant  from  Mr. 

4  McFarlana's  in  that  I  think  that  Z  discussad  with  tha 

5  Prasidant  having  tha  7  Dacambar  meating,  and  vary  likely 

6  if  he  recalls  that  I  briefed  him  on  this  on  the  Sth, 

7  that's  probably  the  day  we  set  up  the  meeting  for  the 

8  7th. 

9  Q    He  describes  it  as  McFarlane  describing  the 

10  plan.   I  will  tell  you  that. 

11  A    That's  strange. 

12  Q    But  it  may  be  a  mistake  on  his  part. 

13  A    See,  Bud's  resignation  was  announced  on  tha 

14  4th,  and  I  didn't  think  that  Bud  went  to  any  more  9:30s 

15  after  the  4th,  but  Z  may  be  wrong. 

16  Q    Hell,  he  may  be  so  used  to  seeing  one  National 

17  Security  Advisor  ~ 

18  A    You  see  one,  you've  seen  them  all. 

19  Q    Z  don't  think  Kissinger  would  accept  that. 

20  (Laughter.) 

21  But,  in  any  event,  it  was  to  discuss  this  plan 

22  that  you  had  the  meeting  on  December  7  at  the  White 

23  House;  am  Z  correct? 

24  A    That's  correct.   The  main  purpose  of  that 


2S 


meeting  was  to^  r'*?'^^'  4°^.  t»^Pni«*^«nt  to  de<tide 
li  4  .  •■  -•  TOP   SICHE*  '  •     ■-.  ^    J  4 


1349 


wSitmB 


354 


1  wh«th«r  Mr.  McFarlan*  should  go  to  London  and  Tn€«t  with 

2  th«  Iranian  officials  or  Iranian  contacts  that  ths 

3  Israelis  had. 

4  Q    If  you  look  at  that  PRor  not*  that  w«'v«  just 

5  b««n  axaBining  North  was  r«comiB«nding  that  you  proceed 

6  with  the  next  step;  am  I  correct? 

7  A    He  was  recommending  that. 

8  Q    And  he  also  said  in  this  note  that  if  we  do 

9  not  at  least  make  one  more  try  at  this  point  we  stand  a 

10  good  chance  of  condemning  some  or  all  to  death,  and  he 

11  had  other  references  to  the  fact  that  he  had  gone  so  far 

12  up  to  then  that  to  call  it  off  could  lead  to  reprisals 

13  against  the  hostages.   I'll  read  one  of  them. 

14  "We  believe  that  if  we  stop  the  current  effort 

15  at  this  point  and  we  do  not  at  least  proceed  with  a  test 

16  of  the  current  relationship  that  we  incur  the  greater 

17  likelihood  of  reprisals  against  us  for  leading  them  on. 

18  These  reprisals  could  take  the  form  of  additional  hostage 

19  seizures,  execution  of  some  or  all  of  those  now  held." 

20  Do  you  recall  that? 

21  A    I  don't  recall  that  in  this  specific  memo  but 

22  I  recall  that  that  was  generally  colonel  North's  view  of 

23  on«  of  the  dangers  that  we  faced. 

24  "    Q    Now  did  it  occur  to  you  at  that  point  that 

25  what  you  were  being  told  was  that  if  we  did  nit   sell  arms 

iiMwrniFipn 


1350 


uNlMSSlFIED 


355 


V   vara  going  to  b«  in  a  position  of  causing  tha  loss  oj 
tha  livas  of  tha  hoatagas?  That's  what  you  vara  baing 
told,  right? 

A    Yas,  sir. 

Q    And  in  soma  sansa  that  thraat  is  ona  that  has 
to  craata  a  dilanuna  for  a  policymakar,  doasn't  it? 
MR.  BECKL£R:   Oo  you  undarstand? 

8  BV  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuming) 

9  Q    Tha  dilanuna  baing  that  onca  you  start  on  this 

10  kind  of  vantura  if  you  avar  turn  it  off  you  ara  going  to 

11  condamn  to  daath  tha  vary  paopla  you  ara  trying  to  save. 

12  A    That's  corract.   But  that  doasn't  maan  you 

13  can't  turn  it  off. 

14  Q    Was  thara  any  discussion  or  considaration 

15  about  tha  fact  that  wa  had  bacoma  hostaga  to  tha  vary 

16  procass  at  this  point? 

17  A    Wall,  ny  thinking  was  a  littla  bit  diffarant 

18  than  that.   My  main  objactiva  hara  was  to  gat  a  stratagic 

19  opaning  into  Iran.   Tha  hostagas  wara  important  to  ma 

20  just  as  a  human  baing  and  thay  wara  also  important  to  ma 

21  bacuasa  thay  wara  important  to  tha  Prasidant. 

22  Q    Thay  wara  important  to  your  boss,  tha 

23  Covaandar-in-Chiaf . 

24  A    Exactly.   But  I  ganarally  was  always  willing 

25  to  taka  a  littla  hardar.IJjiik  fHtraa^  thara  wa'<  a  risk  to 


1351 


UNMSIflED 


^  ^^ 356 

1  th«  hostag.s  .v.ry  day  that  th.y  w«r«  h.ld  hostag.  from 

2  lots  of  reasons.   I  know  this  was  Colonsl  North's  vi.w, 

3  that  if  ws  stoppsd  it  —  I  don't  think  I  had  that  strong 

4  a  fssling  that  that  would  incrsass  ths  dangsr  that  much 

5  mors.   It  was  his  visw  that  it  was. 

«  Q    Admiral  Poindsxtsr,  whsn  McFarlans  returned 

7  from  London  hs  cams  by  and  brisfsd  ths  Prssidsnt  and  you, 

8  didn't  hs? 

9  A    Yss.   I  invitsd  him  to  corns  on,  I  think  it 
10  was,  ths  loth. 

H  Q         Monday  or  Tussday? 

12  A    I  think  it  was  Tussday. 

13  Q    And  hs  had  just  rsturnsd  from  London. 
1*  A    Right. 

15  Q    And  McFarlans  cams  with  a  vsry  nsgativs  view 

IS  of  Ghorbanifar;  is  that  fair? 

17  A    Hs  did. 

18  Q    And  fslt  that  hs  wasn't  trustworthy? 

19  A    That's  corrsct. 

20  Q    But  did  McFarlans  also  convsy  this  visw  that 

21  ths  Iranians  and  Israslis  indicatsd  that  if  ths  procsss 

22  stoppsd  ths  hostagss  might  bs  killsd? 

23  .    A    I  don't  rscall  Mr.  McFarlans  having  mads  that 

24  commsnt. 

25  Q    Communicating  that  commsnt.   I'm  n^t  saying 


mmunicatmg  that  commsilt 


1352 


UNClAmED 


357 


that  it  was  somathing  that  ha  was  using  to  advocata. 

A    No.   Z  think  to  soma  axtant  ha  and  I  fait  the 
saaa.   You  Icnow,  ha  and  I  did  not  hava  as  strong  a 
faaling  about  that  as  Colonal  North  did. 

Q    I  say  this  bacausa  tha  Prasidant's  notas 
claarly  indicata  —  and  I  think  ths  Tovar  raport  ravaaled 
it  —  that  tha  Prasidant  undarstood  ha  was  baing  told 

8  that  if  ha  stoppad  ha  was  andangaring  tha  livas  of  these 

9  hostagas. 

10  A    Bacausa,  you  know,  soma  paopla  fait  that  way. 

11  Colonal  North  would  b«  en*  of  thosa  and  thara  may  very 

12  wall  hava  baan  othars  that  fait  tha  sama  way.   I'm  sure 

13  that  issua  was  discussad  with  tha  Prasidant  and  ha  may 

14  hava  fait  that  way  about  it.   I'm  just  tailing  you  I 

15  didn't  hava  as  strong  a  faaling  about  it. 

16  Q    Than  giva  us  your  axplanation  as  to  what  kept 

17  driving  this  initiativa  forward  aftar  Wainbargar  and 

18  Shultz  wara  opposad  to  it  from  day  ona,  McFarlana       | 

19  ratumad  from  London  faaling  that  tha  intarmadiary  wasn't 

20  trustworthy.  Whara  was  tha  support  coming  from  for  this? 

21  A    Wall,  it  was  coming  from  ma,  from  tha 

22  standpoint  that  Z  wantad  to  gat  channals  in  to  tha 

23  Zranian  govarnmant  so  v«  could  find  out  what  was  going  on 

24  and  try  to  influence  avants  thara  and  gat  tha  hostages 

25  out.   Zt  cama  from  tha  President,  not  so  much  from  the 


1353 


UNCtASSiFiE 


358 


1  standpoint  thait  if  w«  stopp«d  it  would  incr«as«  th«  risk 

2  to  th«  hostages,  but  that  th«ra  was  a  possibility  of 

3  gsttin?  th«  hostagas  out. 

4  Z  mean,  that  was  on*  of  his  major  objectives, 

5  was  to  bring  th«  hostagas  horn*.   Th«  bast  description 

6  that  I  hava  scan  in  ny  preparations  was  the  Casey 

7  meoorandua  of  that,  of  Bud's  debrief  of  his  London  trip 

8  that's  in  the  Tower  Commission  report.   By  my 

9  recollection,  that's  a  fairly  accurate  account  of  the 

10  President's  mood  at  that  period  of  time. 

11  Q    And  his  mood  was  that  he  wanted  to  try? 

12  A    He  wanted  to  try.   And  Mr.  McFarlane  didn't 

13  disagree  with  that.   It's  just  that  he  didn't  thinJc  that 

14  Ghorbanifar  was  the  right  channel  to  try  and  do  it,  and 

15  we  didn't  have  any  misconceptions  even  before  he  went  as 

16  to  the  character  of  Ghorbanifar. 

17  Q    You  had  no  reason  or  basis  for  disagreeing 

18  with  McFarlane 's  assessment  that  Ghorbanifar  was  the 

19  wrong  channel,  correct? 

20  A    That  is  correct,  and  the  efforts  with 

21  Ghorbanifar  after  that  point  were  primarily  oriented 

22  toward  opening  up  another  channel.   That's  one  of  the 

23  reasons  that  I  thought  it  was  important  that  Mr. 

24  McFarlane  go  to  Tehran. 

25  Q    Well,  at  the  time  we'ri^iaDcing  abdat,  which' 


11,  at  the  time  *'*,'/^if  l'«i' 


1354 


UNELWe 


359 


1  i^Djcjmb^rof  198  5,  th«  channel  was  through  OhorbaniCar 
^^^■^^^H  r  i  gh  t  ? 

3  K         That's  right. 

4  Q    And  aftar  ~ 

5  A    I'm  not  sur*  at  what  point  w«  laarnad^^^^^l 

6  vaa  th«  nan. 

7  Q    I  think  ha's  svan  rafarrad  to  in  this 

8  oanorandua . 

9  A    Vou'ra  right. 

10  Q    Uov   aftar  McFarlana's  trip  to  London  wars  you 

11  told  that  tha  CIA  did  a  polygraph  on  Ghorbanifar? 

12  A    I  was  awara  at   that.   I'm  not  sura.   I  rather 

13  think  I  laarnad  that  bafora  ha  want  to  London. 

14  Q    I  think  it  was  dona  aftarward. 

15  A    I  maan  thay  gava  him  anothar  ona,  but  tha 

16  Agancy  had  daalt  with  Shorbanifar  for  a  pariod  et   tima. 

17  Q    And  ha  was  consistent  in  his  failure  of  the 

18  polygraph  test. 

19  A    That  is  correct.   So  that's  why  X  say  wa 

20  weren't  under  any  misconceptions  as  to  Ghorbanifar 's 

21  character  once  we  identified  who  he  was. 

22  Q    Let  me  show  you  a  couple  of  miscellaneous 

23  documents  and  see  if  you  can  tell  us  what  they  are  about. 

24  One  is  a  PROF  note  dated  11/26/85.   It's  from'  McFarlane. 

25  The  subject  is  Ladeen.   It  is  not  to  you.   I  den't  know 


iiuAirJknoprirn 


1355 


UNCLASSIFIED 


360 
if  you  can  t«ll  by  th«  initials  who  it's  to. 

(Th«  documant  raCarred  to  was 
nar)c«d  Poindaxtar  Exhibit 
NuaJsar  36  for  idantification.) 
A    It's  to  wilma  Hall. 
Q    It's  to  Wilna  Hall. 
A    His  sacratary,  and  to  Ollia. 

8  Q    And  it  says  -- 

9  A    And  a  copy  to  ma. 

LO  Q    A  copy  want  to  you.   It  says:   Plaasa  tall 

Mika  —  and  Mika  maans  Michaal  Ladaan  —  that  I  had  no 
opportunity  to  talk  to  prass  in  Roma  but  will  find  a  way. 
On  furthar  traval,  plaasa  pass  Mika's  massaga  to  John 
Poindaxtar.   I  am  inclinad  to  think  that  wa  should  bring 
this  oparation  into  tha  NSC  and  taka  Mika  out  of  it  and 
will  await  John's  thoughts.   No  furthar  conununications  to 
Mika  on  this  until  I  hava  thought  it  through. 

Is  this  tha  Iran  initiativa  or  soma  othar  of 
Ladaan 's  pro j acts? 

MR.  BECKLER:   If  you  know. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  know  for  carta in,  but  I 
suspact  it's  Iran. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuaing) 
Q    Do  you  ramambar  any  discussion  with  McFarlana 
or  North  on  tmi 


mihnbprnrn 


1356 


UNCUSStEIED 


361 


1 

2 

3 

4 

9 

6 

7 

• 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

1« 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

2S 


A    Y«s,  I  do. 

Q    What  do  you  r«a«ab«r  about  that? 

A    X  was  ganarally  awar*  that  —  wall,  Mr.  Ladatn 
was  an  NSC  consultant  bacaus*  ay  iaprassion  was  —  and  I 
guaas  X  don't  know  it  for  a  fact,  but  my  iaprassion  was 
that  ha  was  a  consultant  bacausa  Mr.  McFarlana  thought 
highly  ot   hia.  And  X  was  awars  that  Mr.  McFarlana  had 
hia  involvad  in  tha  discussions  with  tha  Israalis  on  tha 
Xran  pro j act  and  ay  raeollaction  is  —  and  ona  thing 
about  that  cabla  you  showad  aa  aarliar  that  Mr.  McFarlana 
s«nt  to  Sacratary  Shultz  was  that  ay  raeollaction  is  that 
Ladaan  had  soaa  contact  or  connaction  withi 

And  tha  purposa  of  tha  lattar  that  you  brought 
out  aarliar  to^^^^^Hwas  raally  in  fulfilling  a  raquast 
froa  Mr.  McFarlana  to  aa  that  ha  wantad  Mr.  Ladaan  to  go 
to  £urop«  and  talk  to  soaa  officials.   I  frankly  was 
navar  eoaplataly  coafortabla  with  Mr.  Ladaan. 
Q        Why? 

A    X  frankly  thought  ha  talkad  too  auch  and  I 
didn't  think  ha  was  a  particularly  discrata  aanisary  to 
b«  using.  And  —  will  all  of  this  ba  aada  public?  j 

W«  can  us«  soaa  discration.    ^^ t'^^--'*''] 

Wall,  for  axaapla,! 


1357 


UNCl^OTIED 


362 


1 
2 
3 

*  ^^^1  And  so  ay  discussions  with  Colon«l"T7orthTa^T? 

5  and  when  Colonsl  North  and  Z  bscam*  nor*  involved  in 

6  Novsmbsr  of  '85  with  this  HAWK  shipasnt  ws'v*  b««n 

7  talking  about,  w«  wars  both  concsmad,  aspacially  a£tar 

8  w*  found  out  that  th*  Israelis  had  scrawad  up  in  tha 

9  shipaant,  that  wa  wara  concarnad  with  Ladaan  not  raally 

10  baing  vary  )(nowladgaabla  about  what  ha  was  dealing  with. 

11  And  at  soaa  point  I  believe  Z  told  Mr. 

12  McFarlana  --  and  it  was  probably  in  response  to  this  note 

13  —  that  I  thought  that  we  ought  to  drop  Michael  Ledeen 

14  out  of  it.   And,  of  course,  shortly  after  this  note  Mr. 

15  McFarlana  decided  to  resign  and  I  aay  not  have  told  hia 

16  that  because  of  th*  confusion  of  that  tiae  period. 

17  Anyway,  whan  Z  toolc  over  eventually  w*  did 

18  drop  Mr.  Ledeen  out. 

19  Q    When  do  you  date  Ledeen 's  reaoval  froa  tha 

20  whole  Zran  initiative? 

21  A    Well,  certainly  by  the  5th  of  January  when  I 

22  took  over. 

23  Q    H*  was  out? 

24  A    H*  was  out. 

25  MR.  BECKLER:   We're  still  sticking  .to  our  4:30 


1358 


UNCLASSIfiED 


363 


1  closing? 

2  BY  MR.  L£OM:   (Resuming) 

3  Q    On  th«  L«d««n  point,  Adairal,  did  Olli*  North 

4  ever  cxprsss  to  you  th«  opinion  that  h«  thought  Lcdecn 

5  was  mayb*  making  soma  monias  out  of  thasa  transactions? 

6  A    Ha  did. 

7  Q    Do  you  ramambar  whan  ha  first  might  hava 

8  suggastad  that  to  you,  that  ha  was  concarnad  about  it? 

9  A    I  can't  ramambar  that. 

10  Q    Lat  ma  ask  you  this.   Would  it  ring  a  ball  if 

11  ha  might  hava  told  you  that  on  Friday,  Novambar  21,  1936, 

12  aftar  visiting  with  Ladaan  that  morning? 

13  A    My  raeollaction  would  hava  baan  bafora  that. 

14  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuaing) 

15  Q    Was  it  a  suspicion  or  did  ha  hava  hard 

16  information,  Admiral? 

17  A    Wall,  I  don't  know  how  hard  it  was.   I  think 

18  it  would  ba  fair  to  say  that  Colonal  North  had  an  avan 

19  graatar  distrust  for  Mr.  Ladaan  than  Z  did,  and  I'm  not 

20  totally  sura  I  understand  why,  but  at  soma  point  —  and 

21  this  would  hava  baan  in  aarly  '86,  I  think  —  Colonal 

22  North  raportad  to  ma  that  ha  and  Dick  Sacord  had  figurad 

23  out  that  Schwinnar  and  Nimrodi  wara  making  a  considarabla 

24  profit  on  tha  arms  salas  that  thay  had  baan  making  to 


1359 


UNCLASSIFIED 


364 


1  I  rath«r  think,  trying  to  »tic)c  to  th«  L«d««n 

2  connection,  that  Colon«l  North  was  at  laast  suspicious 

3  that  Ladsan  may  hava  gottan  soma  of  that  profit,  but  I 

4  don't  thin)c  I  avar  )tnaw  if  Colonal  North  had  any  hard 

5  avidanca  on  that  or  not. 

6  Q    Whan  you  vara  working  on  tha  chronologies  in 

7  1986,  Novambar  of  '86,  did  you  spaak  to  Ladaan  at  any 

8  tima? 

9  A    My  racollaction  is  that  ha  triad  to  call  ma, 

10  but  my  racollaction  is  I  don't  think  I  avar  ratumad  the 

11  call.   I  asked  Colonel  North  to  talk  to  him  and  my 

12  recollection  is  Colonel  North  did,  and  my  recollection  is 

13  that  his  report  to  me  was  that  Mr.  Ladeen  was  thinking 

14  about  going  public  with  his  version  of  the  case,  of  tha 

15  project.   I  did  not  want  to  do  that  becuase,  frankly,  I 

16  didn't  know  what  Mr.  Ladeen  would  say. 

17  I  also  suspected  that  ha  had  some  hard 

18  feelings  about  being  cut  out  of  it  and  I  believe  my  best 

19  recollection  is  that  I  talked  to  Mr.  McFarlane  also  about 

20  talking  to  Mr.  Ladeen  to  try  to  convince  him  not  to  go 

21  public  at  that  point.   And  this  waa  probably  in  the  time 

22  frame  before  tha  President's  speech  on  the  19th. 

23  *        You  know,  one  point  I'd  like  to  »dd  right  here 

24  is  that  this  detail  —  I've  had  a  lot  of  time  since 

25  November  of  19||^Y^  IV^rf^Fl l*K^^^"^  **"*^  *^^  °' 


1360 


UNCU»ED 


36S 


1  this,  so  what  I  racall  now  is  mor«  d«tail«d  than  I  could 

2  recall  in  Nov«mb«r  of  1986. 

3  Q    Whil*  you'r*  on  this  subject,  you  just 

4  m«ntion«d  Sscord.   Did  Stanlsy  Sporkin,  as  Gsnsral 

5  Counsel  of  th«  CIA,  svsr  conununicat*  to  you  that  thsra 

6  had  bssn  soma  questions  about  Secord's  past? 

7  A    Z  was  aware  that  Sporkin,  aaongst  others  at 

8  the  Agency,  had  some  concern  about  some  of  Dick  Secord's 

9  history.   As  I  understood  their  concerns,  I  thought  that 

10  they  were  unfounded  and  in  fact  had  a  conversation  with 

11  Director  Casey  about  that  subject,  and  I  told  hio  I 

12  thought  his  people  were  being  unfair  with  General  Secord. 

13  Q    Was  this  later  in  '86  or  at  the  time  that  the 

14  issue  of  whether  to  take  over  the  assets  of  Project 

15  Democracy  occurred?  Or  did  you  have  one  with  him  at  the 

16  beginning? 

17  AX  think  it  was  at  the  beginning,  and  Bill 

18  Casey  generally  agreed  with  me  that  he  thought  that  Dick 

19  Secord  was  a  very  great  professional  and  was  being 

20  unfairly  tarred  by  the  Wilson-Terpil  brush. 

21  Q    And  what  provoked  that  discussion? 

22  A    Well,  it  may  very  well  have  been  something 

23  that  Sporkin  said  to  me.   I  can't  recall  a  conversation. 

24  It  is  possible  that  he  called  me.   He  was  in  tt)e  drafting 

25  session  that  I  had  with  Director  Casey  and  Secretary 

■  laiAl   A  i\a\unTt\ 


1361 


w«inb«rg«r  and  Ed  M««sa  and,  var^^friafly,  Gaorga  Shultz 
on  th«  16th  of  January. 

Q    You  vara  about  to  say  somathlng  and  I 
Intarruptad  whan  you  vara  talking  about  Sacord  and  tha 
wllson-Tarpil  connaction  and  tha  unfalrnass  of  it. 

A    Wall,  I  was  going  to  say  on  Sporkin,  gatting 
back  to  your  original  guastion,  I  can't  racall  for 

8  cartain  how  Z  was  awara  that  Sporkin  was  with  tha  group 

9  that  was  critical  of  Dick  Sacord.   You  know,  it's 

10  concaivabla  I  haard  that  diractly  from  Stanlay  or  from 

11  Colonal  North. 

12  Q    Lat  ma  go  back  to  tha  Novambar  HAWK  shipmant 

13  for  a  momant.   Did  North  or  anyona  alsa  tall  you  that  the 

14  Sacord  organization  racaivad  $1  million  from  tha  Israelis 

15  for  tha  shipping  costs  of  tha  HAWKs? 

16  A    I  can't  racall  that  figura  or  knowing  that.   : 

17  maan,  I  knaw  that  as  tha  way  it  finally  workad  out  that 

18  Sacord  was  involvad  in  that  shipmant,  and  I  assumed  that 

19  ha  had  soma  axpansas. 

20  Q    Did  anyona  tall  you  that  tha  profit  that 

21  Sacord  and  his  group  mada  on  that  shipmant  was  going  to 

22  tha  contras? 

23  *   A    Wall,  you  maan  — 

24  Q    on  tha  November  shipment.   Let  ma  just  give 

25  you  soma  facts,  Admiral.   Tha  Sacord  organization,  Lake, 


1362 


UNCUSSIFIED 


367 


r*c«iv«d  a  transfer  of  $1  million  from  th«  Israelis.   It 
incurred  costs  of  under  $150,000  in  chartering  the 
airline  from  the  CIA  proprietary  and  in  other  out-of- 
pocket  expenses,  and  General  Seeord  testified  that  he 
Israelis  said  that  he  didn't  have  to  refund  the  balance 
but  could  use  it  for  the  contras. 

Kow  does  that  ring  any  bell?  Did  anyone  tell 

8  you  that? 

9  A    You  know,  it's  conceivable  that  I  was  told 

10  that.   I  don't  recall  it.   My  general  level  of  knowledge 

11  in  that  time  frame  was  that  Oick  was  involved  in  the 

12  private  logistics  support  of  the  democratic  resistance 

13  and  that  because  of  his  connect ions^^^^^^^^^^-^^^ 

14  Ollie  brought  hia  into  the  Iranian  effort| 

16  Q    This  would  have  been  an  $850,000  donation  by 

17  Israel.   I'm  not  talking  about  the  fact  that  it  went  to 

18  Seeord. 

19  A    I  understand  what  you  mean.   But,  you  know, 

20  it's  possible  that  Colonel  North  reported  that  to  me.   I 

21  don't  recall  it. 

22  MR.  BSCKLER:   You  don't  recall.   It's 

23  poesible.   Let's  go  on  to  the  next  question. 

24  BV  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

25  Q    Now  on  the  Finding  to  which  you've  given 

iiiiat  uiAirim 


1363 


tlNCLASSlflED 


368 


1  testimony,  which  was  Exhibit  12,  aCtar  that  was  signed  by 

2  tti«  President  where  was  it  put? 

3  A    It  was  probably  in  an  envelope  on  ay  desk  for 

4  a  period  of  time.   At  some  point  in,  it  would  have  been 

5  sometime  later,  probably  the  month  of  January  of  '36,  I 
<  took  all  of  the  papers  I  had  at  the  time  on  Iran,  which 

7  would  have,  I  guess,  been  this  one  and  the  5  or  6  January 

8  version  and  the  final  version  and  gave  those  to  Commander 

9  Thompson  to  keep  in  one  of  the  outer  office  safes. 

10  Q    Where  were  Findings  normally  stored? 

11  A    Somewhere  over  in  the  Old  COB.   I  don't  know 

12  exactly  where  the  System  IV  stuff  was  stored. 

13  Q    And  did  you  tell  Director  Casey  that  this 

14  Finding  that  he  sent  you  had  been  signed? 

15  A    I  can't  recall  that. 

16  Q    Did  you  tell  Colonel  North  that  it  had  been 

17  signed? 

18  A    I  can't  recall  that  either.   I  probably  told 

19  Colonel  North,  but  I  don't  recall  it. 

20  Q    Did  you  tell  Don  Regan  that  it  had  been 

21  signed? 

22  A    I  would  assume  that  Don  Regan  was  probably  in 

23  the  9:30  when  it  was  signed.  .' 

24  Q    Do  you  remember? 

25  ^.   I  don't  remember  that^^^hough. 


1364 


UNClASSIFiED 


369 


1  Q    What  about  th«  Vica  Prasidant? 

2  A    It  dapands  whathar  ha  was  at  tha  9:30. 

3  Q    You  don't  ramambar  that? 

4  A    I  don't  ramambar. 

5  Q    And  tha  Attornay  Ganaral.   Did  you  avar  tell 

6  him  that  it  was  signed? 

7  A    I  don't  think  that  I  avar  told  tha  Attornay 

8  Ganaral  that,  although  it's  possible.   But  I  don't  think 

9  so  because,  you  see,  again  the  frame  of  reference  on  this 

10  Finding  was  I  never  really  considered  this  an  adequate 

11  Finding,  and  I'm  not  even  sure  that  I  recommended  that 

12  tha  President  sign  it. 

13  Q    But  he  signed  it. 

14  A    But  ha  did  sign  it.   But  again  because  I  can't 

15  remember  the  meeting  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  —  I 

16  think  I've  testified  he  did  have  a  habit  of  if  he  agreed 

17  with  a  place  of  paper  he  would  put  his  name  on  it,  even 
13  though  maybe  you  weren't  ready  for  him  to  finalize  it. 

19  But,  anyway,  I  never  considered  it  an 

20  operative  document. 

21  Q    When  you  say  you  never  considered  it  an 

22  operative  document,  this  is  a  document  that  was  the  only 

23  Finding  on  dealing  with  Iran  until  January  of  1986, 

24  correct? 

2  5  A  That    is   correct.      But   there  was   —  sfeah,    that 


1365 


wmmm 


370 


1  is  corrsct. 

2  Q    And  you  n«v«r  told  th«  President  whan  ha 

3  siqrnad  it  that  this  is  a  docuntant  that's  not  oparativa, 

4  did  you? 

5  A    Wall,  I 'a  not  sura  about  that.   Z  maan,  again 

6  bacausa  I  can't  racall  tha  oaating  in  which  it  was 

7  diseussad,  I  don't  Icnow  undar  what  conditions  it  was 

8  signad.   I  don't  think  that  that's  particularly  unusual. 

9  Q    Wall,  Mr.  McMahon  tastifiad  —  Mr.  McMahon 

10  wrota  a  mamorandum  which  I  can  show  you  that  ha  was  told, 

11  Z  baliava  by  you,  that  ha  had  baan  signad.   Z'll  show  ycu 

12  that  at  tha  naxt  sassion  —  told  by  you  that  it  had  been 

13  signad. 

14  A    Z  don't  racall  it. 

15  Q    Wall,  lat  ma  raCrash  your  racollaction.   This 

16  was  not  a  documant  which  was  signad  inadvartantly  and  has 

17  no  maaning,  is  it? 

18  A    Wall,  tha  only  —  wall,  Z  raally  don't  hava 

19  any  mora  on  that. 

20  Q    It  was  sant  ovar  by  Casay. 

21  A    Right. 

22  Q    Caaay  was  a  parson  who  had  a  closa 

23  ralationship  with  tha  Prasidant  of  tha  United  Statas;  is 

24  that  fair  to  say? 

25  A    Ha  had  worJcad  with  him  for  a  long  t;ima. 


1366 


m^Mmm 


371 


1  g    You  ara  v«ry  cautious,  Admiral.   H«  was  his 

2  campaign  manager. 

3  A    At  on*  point  h«  was. 

4  Q    And  a  campaign  managar,  you  ara  awara,  is  a 

5  parson  who  has  an  intimata  relationship  with  a 

6  Prasidantial  candidate. 

7  A    But  I  am  also  putting  it  in  light  of  a  long 

8  period  of  time  with  the  President  myself. 

9  Q    And  Casey  was  a  man  who  the  President  was 

10  comfortable  with,  wasn't  he? 

11  A    He  had  great  trust  and  confidence  in  Director 

12  Casey. 

13  Q    And  Casey  was  indeed  a  very  sophisticated  man? 

14  A    He  was. 

15  Q    And  this  Finding  came  over  to  you  with  a 

16  letter  from  Casey. 

17  A    That's  correct. 

18  Q    And  it  said:   Pursuant  to  our  conversation 

19  this  should  go  to  the  President  for  his  signature.   Do 

20  you  recall  that? 

21  AX  recall  that. 

22  Q    And  so  you,  according  to  the  covering  letter, 

23  had  had  a  converastion  with  Casey  before  he  even  sent  it. 

24  A    Presumably. 

25  Q    That's  what  he  says. 


1367 


'"^"  372 

1  A    V«s,  that's  what  h«  says. 

2  Q    But  you  don't  r«D«Bb«r  th*  conversation? 

3  XI  don't  r«m«mb«r  th«  convsrsatlon. 

4  Q    But  on*  thing  I'va  laarnsd  from  two  days  Is 

5  th«  fact  that  you  don't  ramambar  a  convarsatlon  Is  not 

6  going  to  turn  out  to  b*  unusual,  glvan  all  of  th* 

7  conversations  that  you  had  ovar  this  period. 

8  A    That's  correct. 

9  Q    And  you  are  not  denying  that  you  had  the 

10  conversation  with  Casey? 

11  A    No.   I  just  don't  remember  it. 

12  Q    And  Indeed  Casey  said  of  the  Finding  that  it 

13  should  not  be  passed  around  in  any  hands  below  our  level. 

14  A    That's  correct.   That's  what  the  memo  says. 

15  Q    And  below  our  level  meant  not  even  01 lie 

16  North? 

17  A    Well,  I  doubt  If  Director  Casey  would  have 

18  excluded  Colonel  North. 

19  Q    Because  Colonel  North  was  a  discrete  man? 

20  A    That's  correct. 

21  Q    But  Colonel  North,  despite  the  power  that  he 

22  appears  to  have,  wasn't  at  Casey's  level? 

23  A    That's  also  correct.  But  also  1; would  point 

2  4  out  that  I  doubt  seriously  if  Director  Casey  drafted  t.hat 

23  note.        IlilAI  1  AAirirFt 


1368 


UNCI^IFIED 


373 


1  Q    Well,  it's  only  a  couple  of  lines. 

2  A    It's  possible.   X  just  doubt  it. 

3  Q    And  I  )cnew  Director  Casey  longer  than  you  did 

4  wh«n  hs  was  a  practicing  lawyer  in  New  York.   I  think  he 

5  could  have  drafted  this  note. 

6  MR.  BECKLZR:   Arthur,  we'ra  going  to  have  to 

7  put  you  under  oath. 

8  KR.  LIMAN:   I  don't  want  it  to  be  said  that  he 

9  couldn't  write  a  transmittal  letter. 

10  THE  wiTOESS:   Director  Casey  was  a  very  good 

11  writer,  very  articulate. 

12  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

13  0    When  he  wanted  to  be. 

14  A    I'm  talking  about  writing  —  not  orally. 

15  Q    Let  me  move  because  we're  going  to  have  to 

16  break  in  ten  minutes.   I  want  you  to  give  me  an  overview 

17  of  something.   In  January  of  1986  you  testified  you  were 
IS  visited  by  Nir  —  January  2,    1986. 

19  A    Corract. 

20  Q    And  your  notas  raflacted  the  proposal  that  Nir 

21  made  for  the  Iran  initiative  to  continue. 

22  A    Yes. 

23  *   Q    And  the  notes  raflact  that  thera  yill  be  a 

24  total  of  4,000  TOWs  shipped  to  Iran  and  that  if  tha 

25  hostages  aren't  jr^laased  after  the  first  installment  — 

irilAI  ft  rtrtii-ir"». 


1369 


UNCLASSIFIED 


374 


1  January  of  1986,  if  th«y  ar«  not  r*l«as«d  aftar  tha  first 

2  installnant  of  500  tha  pro j act  ands  and  tha  Israalis  ara 

3  out  500  TOHs.   Oe  you  ramaabar  that,  or  do  you  want  ma  to 

4  show  you  your  notas? 

5  A    I  ramambar  tha  notas. 

6  Q    And  tha  Israalis  vara  praparad  in  ordar  to 

7  kaap  this  initiativa  going,  as  I  raad  your  notas,  to  baar 

8  tha  risk  of  baing  out  of  pockat  SCO  TOWs.   That's  what 

9  your  notas  said;  am  I  corract? 

10  A    That's  corract. 

11  Q    And  that's  what  ha  told  you,  am  Z  corract? 

12  A    My  bast  racollaction. 

13  Q    And  ha  also  indicatad  that  if  it  was 

14  succassful  ha  axpactad  that  you  would  raplanish  not  only 

15  tha  4,000  TOWs  that  thay  would  ba  shipping  to  Iran  but 

16  tha  500-odd  TOWs  that  thay  had  praviously  shippad? 

17  A    In  Saptambar? 

18  Q    In  Saptambar,  yas. 

19  Now  wa  know  this  from  documants  you'va  saen  in 

20  Towar  and  documants  that  you  will  saa  hara  that  tha 

21  Israali  proposal  is  tha  ona  that  is  prasantad  to  tha 

22  group,  tha  NSC  principals  on  January  7,  and  it's  a 

23  proposal  that  Israal  sails,  tha  Unitad  Statas  ; 

24  raplanishas.   Wa  also  know  from  tha  documants.  Admiral, 

25  that  by  J«nua>^iViStl  V*n»*<=_t^°"_'^**  changarf.'and  that 


1370 


mmsm 


375 


1  it's  not  a  r«pl«nishin«nt  of  Isra«l.   It's  not  Israel 

2  that's  going  to  sail  and  that  ws'rs  going  to  raplanish; 

3  it's  going  to  b«  a  sal*  by  ths  Dspartasnt  of  Oaf ansa  to 

4  tha  CIA  which  than  through  an  agant  tha  Israalis  will  get 

5  thasa  TOWs  to  tha  Iranians. 

6  You  racall  that,  don't  you?   Do  you  racall 

7  that  or  would  you  lika  to  saa  your  January  17  aamo? 

8  A    No,  I  racall  it.   During  tha  tioa  pariod  from 

9  tha  tiaa  — 

10  Q    I  havan't  askad  you  a  quastion  yat.   I  just 

11  wantad  to  know  if  you  racall  that.   You  may  hava 

12  anticipatad  tha  question.   Tha  quastion  is  what  happaned 

13  batwaan  January  7,  whan  you  wara  discussing  tha  Israali 

14  plan  with  tha  NSC  principals,  and  January  17,  whan  you 

15  adopt  tha  othar  plan  and  thara,  in  your  own  words  or  in 

16  tha  words  that  you  sign  on  on  as  in  tha  oaaorandum  to  the 

17  Prasidant  which  has  baan  aarkad  as  an  axhibit,  it  says 

18  '*tha  objactivas  of  tha  Israali  plan  could  ba  mat  if  tha 

19  CIA,  using  an  authorized  agant  as  nacassary,  purchased 

20  arms  froa  tha  Department  of  Defense  under  the  Econoay  Act 

21  and  then  transferred  thea  to  Iran  directly  after 

22  receiving  appropriate  payaent  from  Iran.'* 

23  "        What  happened  to  change  tha  structuring  of  tf 

24  transaction  in  your  own  words  and  as  fully  as  you  can 


1371 


UMMSSiFO 


376 


A    All  right.   To  an«w«r  th«  question  I'd  like  to 
go  baOc  to  th«  first  v.rsion  of  th«  Finding.   You  s««,  ir. 
ay  vi.w  th«r«  v«r«  thr««  versions  of  th«  Finding, 
starting  with  ths  on*  in  D«cambar,  th«n  ths  ona  in  early 
January,  and  than  tha  ona  which  in  my  viaw  was  tha  final 
varsion  and  tha  ona  that  wa  avantually  iaplamantad  was 
tha  17  January. 

In  tha  aarly  part  of  Dacarabar,  of  coursa,  I 
9       was  j     -.aking  ovar.   It  was  a  vary  confusing  tima.   r 
'•0       had  t.   -amo  from  Director  Casey.   in  fact,  well,  I'm  a 
little  confused  here  now  whether  :  :an  recall  it  or 
whether  I  read  it  in  the  Tower  Commission  report,  but 
anyway  McMahon  was  very  concerned  about  the  Finding,   in 
fact,  I  think  he  was  more  concerned  about  getting  that 
Finding  signed  in  December  than  Director  Casey. 

But  again  I  don't  recall  conversations  wit.n 
McMahon  or  Casey  on  the  Finding.  But,  anyway,  as  I've 
said  before  I  was  not  satisfied  with  the  first  version  off 

19  the  Finding,  and  after  that  I  asked  Colonel  North  — 

20  MR.  LIMAN:   If  you're  going  to  consult  in  the 
middle  of  an  answer,  then  I  want  it  reflected. 

(Counsel  conferring  with  the  witness.) 
MR.  BECXLER:   You  can  reflect  that.   You've 
been  more  than  kind. 

THE  WITNESS :   I  told  Colonel  North  50  work 


1372 


UNiSSSSfiED 


1  with  who«v«r  h«'d  b««n  working  with  at  th«  Ag«ncy,  and  I 

2  don't  r«call  wh«th€r  I  )cn«w  it  was  SporJcin  at  that  point, 

3  and  also  I  wantad  him  to  touch  bas«  with  th«  Attomay 

4  G«n«ral  or  at  laast  tha  Attorney  Ganaral's  iamadiate 

5  staff  that  would  b«  awar*  of  tha  subject  of  tha  Findings. 

6  And  so  that  procass.   Than  wa  had  tha 

7  Christmas  holidays  and  than  Nir  cam*  in  with  a  proposal 

8  that  in  soma  raspacts  was  similar  to  the  past.   But,  as 

9  Z'va  tastifiad,  thara  wara  soma  diffarant  aspacts  to  it 

10  with  regard  to  the  cover  story.   And  in  the  meeting  in 

11  early  January  with  the  principals  after  my  prebriefing  of 

12  the  President,  the  President  was  willing  to  go  ahead  with 

13  it  right  away,  and  that's  why  he  signed  the  second 

14  version,  which  was  in  early  January. 

15  But  again  I  didn't  consider  that  the  final 

16  version  because  I  wanted  to  get  Secretary  Weinberger  and 

17  the  Attorney  General  and  Director  Casey  and,  if  I  could, 

18  Secretary  Shultz  in  a  session  to  perfect  the  wording  of 

19  the  Finding. 

20  In  the  meeting  on  the  16th  of  January  with  th« 

21  Attorney  General  and  Director  Casey,  Secretary 

22  w^nberger.  Secretary  Shultz  came  in  at  the  very 

23  beginning  of  the  meeting  but  had  to  leave  -*  the  timing 
■24  of  the  meeting  was  impromptu  and  Secretary  Shultz  had  a 

-.»  — «#i<„«.  —  fv..  ^ttarnav  General  raised  the  point  that  i* 


1373 


378 

w«  did  th«  operation  using  th«  Israelis  to  tha  Iranians 
and  our  raplanishing  th«  Israelis  w«  ran  into  problams 
with  tha  Aras  Export  Control  Act  bacausa  thara  would  have 
to  ba  a  report  to  the  Congress  under  the  Arms  Export 
Control  Act,  because  the  weapons,  even  though  we  were 
replenishing  them  directly  under  this  Finding, 
technicallyi  the  weapons  that  the  Israelis  would  ship 
would  have  been  delivered  to  the  Israelis  under  the  Aras 
Export  Control  Act. 

So  to  avoid  that  problem  the  Attorney  General 
wanted  to  go  direct.   And  Director  Casey  had  no  problem 
with  that.   Secretary  Weinberger  understood  the  point. 
He  was  not  in  favor  of  the  whole  project  all  along,  so  I 
can't  say  that  ha  concurred  with  that.   And  so  the  next 
day  in  briefing  the  President  1  nade  it  clear  that  there 
was  a  change  in  the  procedure  and  he  agreed  that  that  was 
£ln«  with  him. 

And  so  at  that  point  we  moved  from  the 
Finding,  and  I  guess  you'd  have  to  say  the  5  December  or 
whatever  date  that  was  in  early  December  was  operative  up 
until  that  point,  but  at  that  point  we  shifted  to  the  new 
Finding,  which  was  what  we  initiated  the  project  with 
under  my  auspices. 

BY  MR.  LIHAN:   (Resuming) 


1374 


vmrnrnm 


379 


1  structurad  und«r  th«  January  17  Finding  is  it  fair  to  say 

2  that  it  was  a  sal*  from  th«  OOD  to  th«  CIA  under  — 

3  A    Th«  Economy  Act. 

4  Q    Th*  Econony  Act. 

5  A    That's  corrsct. 

6  Q    Now  was  tha  reason  for  sailing  it  undsr  ths 

7  Economy  Act  to  gst  a  bstter  pries  or  to  avoid  having  to 

8  notify  the  whole  Congress? 

9  A    No.   I'm  not  an  expert  on  this  subject,  but  it 

10  was  my  understanding  that  any  time  the  CIA  buys  assets 

11  from  the  Defense  Department  —  and  I  think  that's  what 

12  the  Economy  Act  means  —  that  they  are  required.   In 

13  other  words,  rather  than  going  out  and  contracting  on 

14  their  own  if  they  can  buy  it  cheaper  from  the  Defense 

15  Department  then  the  Economy  Act  permits  that.   So  it 

16  doesn't  have  anything  to  do  with  —  well  — 

17  Q    All,  I  can  ask  you  for  is  your  understanding. 

18  At  least  insofar  as  your  understanding  is  concerned  was 

19  the  reason  to  go  through  the  Economy  Act  sale  to  the  CIA 

20  related  to  pricing  or  was  it  related  to  notification? 

21  A    No.   It's  more  related  to  notification,  I 

22  would  say,  because  the  whole  shift  from  the  original 

23  concept  of  the  Israelis  selling  to  the  Iranians  and  our 

24  replenishing,  shifting  from  that  to  our  going  ^lirectly  to 
the  Iranians  using  the  Israelis  as  logistics  sQpport,  a 


25  , 


1375 


UNeWFlEO 


380 

1  logistics  support  bass  in  ths  procsss,  was  to  gat  around 

2  ths  raporting  raquiramants  of  tha  Arms  Export  Control 

3  Act. 

*  Q    So  that  tha  dabata  or  discussion  on,  was  it 

S  January  15? 

«  A    Sixtaanth,  I  think. 

7  Q    On  January  16  among  tha  various  principals 

8  with  tha  Attornay  Ganaral  was  ovar  tha  issua  of 

9  raporting.   it  wasn't  a  pricing  discussion? 
^0  A    That  is  By  undarstasnding. 

^^  Q    ^d  thara  waran't  aven  pricing  officials  at 

12  that  aaating? 

13  A    No. 

^*  Q    Mow  undar  tha  Economy  Act  tha  shipmant  was 

15  going  to  ba  handlad  by  a  sala  to  tha  CIA  and  than  what 

16  did  you  undarstand  tha  CIA  was  going  to  do  with  tha 

17  waapons? 

^8  A    At  that  point  I'm  not  cartain  I  had  a  claar 

19  undarstanding  of  that.   My  racollaction  is  that  I  had  a 

20  convarsation.   Wa  may  hava  discussad  a  littla  bit  in  that 

21  maating.   It  doasn't  vividly  stand  out.   But  probably  in 

22  that  maating  a  discussion  took  placa  on  tha  Agancy  using 

23  a  privata  agant,  in  othar  words,  a  Oiclc  Sactfrd.   I  don't 

24  baliava  Dick  Sacord's  nama  cama  up  in  tha  16  January 

25  meeting,  and  it  wasn't  avan  claar,  Z  don't  thifflc.   Wa 


1376 


381 

1  just  want«d  to  b«  sura  that  th«  wording  of  th«  Finding 

2  gav«  Director  Cas«y  that  kind  of  flexibility  of  using 

3  third  parties. 

4  And  it  was  a  latsr  convarsation  with  Bill 

5  Casay  in  which  I  discussed  with  him  how  ha  planned  to 

6  carry  it  out,  and  we  probably  discussed  Dick  Secord  at 

7  that  point. 

8  Q    Why  don't  we  end  with  your  telling  us  about 

9  that  later  conversation  with  Casey? 

10  A    I  don't  have  a  good  recollection  of  it,  but 

11  thinking  back  over  the  time  frame  I  had  the  meeting  with 

12  Dick  Secord  and  one  of  the  main  purposes  of  the  meeting 

13  was  to  feel  him  out  as  to  whether  he  would  be  willing  ts 

14  be  a  private  agent  in  the  Iranian  project.   And,  as  he 

15  testified,  my  recollection  is  that  he  said  that  he  would 

16  if  it  was  not  simply  an  arms  for  hostage  arrangement, 

17  which  he  disagreed  with. 

18  And,  of  course,  as  you  know  we  never  did  viaw 

19  it  in  that  simple  a  context. 

20  MR.  LEON:   When  would  that  have  been? 

21  THE  WITNESS:   The  meeting  with  Secord? 

22  BY  KR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

23  -    Q    It  was  January  17.   He  was  in  the  building  on 

24  January  17  and  January  20,  both  times  signed  in  as 

25  visting  you.    -i-  -n-  ■■\  ^'     , -i  -  .  ;  '' • 


1377 


10 


382 


1  A 

2  Q 


My  r«coll«ction  is  it  was  on  a  Saturday. 
Th«  Saturday  m««ting  would  hava  baan  January 

3  17. 

♦  MR.  LEON:   January  18  is  a  Saturday. 

5  MR.  LIMAN:   Tha  17th  is  whan  h«  signad  in, 

6  isn't  it? 

f  THE  WITNESS:   That  was  not  a  Saturday.   But, 

8  anyway,  at  son*  point  aftar  that  I  racoaaandad.   I  told 

9  Bill  tnat  I  had  talkad  to  Ganaral  Sacord,  again  in  my 
bast  racollaction,  and  that  I  thought  that  —  I  don't 

11  raaambar  whathar  I  spacifically  mad*  a  racomnandation  or 

12  just  simply  told  him  that  I  had  talkad  to  Sacord  and 

13  Sacord  was  willing  to  do  it. 

1*  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuming) 

15  Q    Did  anyona  racommand  to  you  tha  usa  of  Sacord 

16  othar  than  Ollia  North? 

17  A    Not  that  I  can  racall. 

18  Q    Did  Casay  say  that  ha  had  to  usa  an  agant  as 

19  opposad  to  a  propriatary? 

20  A    I  don't  racall  that. 

21  Q    Bacausa,  Admiral,  vhan  you  look  at  tha 

22  transactions  up  to  tha  sacond  channal,  up  to  tha  tima  — 

23  tha  shipmant  of  tha  1,000  TOWs  in  Fabruary  of  1986,  and 

24  than  tha  hawk  parts  in  May  of  1986,  until  tha  sacond 

25  channal  was  davalopad,  tha  fact  is  that  Sacor^  is 


1378 


383 

1  handling  logistics,  arranging  for  th«  transportation, 

2  providing  an  Interpreter ,  but  the  people  who  go  to  Tehran 

3  don't  include  Secord. 

4  A    But  that  was  — 

5  Q    So  what  did  you  envision  the  agent  would  be 

6  doing? 

7  A    Arranging  for  transportation  and  providing  the 

8  operational  linkage  with  the  Israelis. 

9  Q    And  did  you  not  think  that  the  CIA  had  a 

10  proprietary  that  could  do  that? 

11  MR.  BECKLER:   We're  after  4:30.   We  had  an 

12  agreement.   It's  4:40. 

13  MR.  LIMAN:   Let's  just  finish  this  question. 

14  Mr.  BECKLER:   Before  we  were  just  going  to 

15  finish  his  last  conversation.  Let's  finish  it,  then. 

16  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

17  Q    Let's  finish  it,  then.  Did  you  not  think  the 

18  CIA  had  a  proprietary? 

19  A    I  knew  that  the  CIA  had  a  proprietary  but  it 

20  really  wasn't  my  decision  about  how  Director  Casey  wanted 

21  to  carry  out  the  project.   I  have  some  personal  views, 

22  speculation  as  to  why  he  wanted  to  do  it  that  way,  but, 

23  you  know,  I  can't  recall  having  a  conversatipn  with 

24  Director  Casey  about  using  General  Secord  versus  one  of 


1379 


17 


384 

1  Q    w«ll,  th«  last  quaation  is,  was  it  you  or 

2  Cas«y  who  wantad  to  do  it  that  way,  maaning  using  a 

3  private  agant? 

4  A    I  think  it  was  —  I  think  wa  both  thought  that 

5  was  a  good  way  to  do  it. 

6  MR.  LIMAN:   Okay.   Why  don't  wa  braak  now  and 

7  rasxuD*  tomorrow.   Wa  can  probably  finish  it  tomorrow,  at 

8  laast  on  my  sida. 

9  MR.  BECKLIR:   That's  fina  with  ma. 

10  (Whareupon,  at  4:41  p.m.,  tha  taking  of  tha 

11  instant  deposition  recassad,  to  raconvana  at  10:00  a.m., 

12  Thursday,  Juna  18,  1987.) 

13  


14  Signature  of  tha  Witness 

15  Subscribed  and  Sworn  to  before  me  this  day  of 

16        ,  1987. 


18  Notary  Public 

19  My  Commission  Expires:  ^ 


\^mu:ntim 


1380 


wit!'*/  li-i  »•■,>  V  »:  H  1 1*  8^ 

CEailFICATE  OF  aEPORTER 


Xlchal  A.  3c>.a£«r 


..  ch«  o:;ie«r  b«fort  whoa  ;nt 


fsrtgoing  dtpostctoa  vas  ca'xaa,  do  h«rtby  cartlfy  chat  ch«  w.t-t$s 

uhos*  ctsciaony  appaars  ia  cha  foragoiag  daposiclon  was  duly  svaca 

ME 
by        ;  chae  th«  etseiaony  of  said  wicnasi  u»s 


cakaa  by  a«  to  cha  base  of  ay  abilley  and  chartafctr  raducad  to  cypawri 
undac  ay  diraceloa;  chac  said  daposlcloa  is  a  erua  racord  of  cha  ctsci: 
gtvan  by  said  wicsass;  chac  I  aa  aalchar  counsal  for,  ralacad  co,  sot 
amployad  by  any  of  cha  parclts  co  cha  acclon  In  which  chis  daposicioa 
was  cakaa,  and  furcher  chac  I  aa  noc  a  ralaciva  or  aaployat  of  any 
accornay  or  counsal  aaployad  by  cha  parcias  characo,  nor  financially 
or  ocharvisa  incarasced  Ln  cha  ouceoaa  of  cha  aecion. 


nMMlhm 


NOTARY  ?f3L:C 


'.y    .oaaissisn  expires: 


-|;i^/9i 


1381 


12  <ru/u  J9n 


82-726   '1381 


1382 

0^^^\  o  K  \^ 

"mmiB         ORIGINAL 

Stenographic  Transcript  of 
HEARINGS 
Before  the 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  OH  SECRET  MILITARY  ASSISTANCE 
TO  IRAN  AND  THE  NICARAOUAS  OPPOSITION 

UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

DEPOSITION  OF  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER  -  Continued 
Thursday,  June  l8,  1987 


.--:A'»*^^^-A 


'91-^ 


y[ 


AlCE^SON  f^POflTNG 


» A  ^  \     c  'la-a  irtrt 


1383 


3SS 


1  DEPOSITION  OF  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER  -  Continued 

2  Thursday,  Jun*  18,  1987 

3  Unlttd  States  Sanat* 

4  Salact  Conunlttaa  on  Sacrat 

5  Military  Assistanca  to  Iran 

6  and  th«  Nicaraguan  Opposition 

7  Washington,  D.  C. 

8  Continuad  daposition  of  JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER, 

9  callad  as  a  witnass  by,  counsal  for  tha  Salact  Conunittaa, 

10  at  tha  officaa  of  tha  Salact  Committaa,  Room  SH-901,  Hart 

11  Sanata  Offica  Building,  Washington,  D.  C. ,  conunancing  at 

12  10:16  a.m.,  tha  witnass  having  baan  duly  sworn,  and  the 

13  testimony  being  taken  down  by  StenooasJc  by  MICHAL  ANN 

14  SCHAFER  and  transcribed  under  her  direction. 
15 


»«MFIli) 


1384 


UNOLASStflED 


386 


1  APPEARANCES : 

2  On  behalf  of  th«  Sanat*  Salact  Comalttaa  on  Sacrat 

3  Military  Assistanca  to  Iran  and  tha  Nicaraguan 

4  Opposition: 

5  ARTHUR  LIMAN,  ESQ. 

6  Chiaf  Counsal 

7  JAMES  E.  KAPLAN,  ESQ. 

8  Associata  Counsal 

9  VICTORIA  NOURSE,  ESQ. 

10  On  bahalf  of  the  Housa  Salact  Connittaa  to 

11  Invastigata  Covart  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran: 

12  NEAL  EGGLESTON,  ESQ. 

13  RICHARD  J.  LEON,  ESQ. 

14  Oaputy  Chiaf  Minority  Counsal 

15  HEATHER  FOLEY,  ESQ. 

16  Exacutiva  Assistant  to  tha  Majority  Leader 

17  On  bahalf  of  the  witness: 

18  RICHARD  W.  BECKLER,  ESQ. 

19  JOSEPH  T.  SMALL,  JR.,  ESQ. 

20  Fulbright  4  Jaworski 

21  1150  Connecticut  Avenue,  N.W. 

22  Washington,  0.  C.   20036 
23 


1385 


UNCblSSIflED 


387 


CONTENTS 

EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF 

WITNESS 

SENATE             HOUSE 

John  M.  Poind«xt«r 

By  Mr.  Liman 

388 

EXHIBITS 

8 

POINDEXTER  EXHIBIT 

NUMBER               FOR  IDENTIFICATION 

9 

37 

388 

10 

38 

405 

11 

39 

405 

12 

40 

409 

1386 


UNClASSmEil 


388 


1  PROCEEOIKOS 

2  Wharoupon, 

3  JOHN  M.    POINDEXTER, 

4  called  as  a  witnass  by  counstl  on  b«half  of  th«  Senata 

5  Salact  ConuBitta*  and  having  baan  duly  sworn,   was  further 

6  axaninad  and  tastifiad  as  follows: 

7  EXAMINATION  ON   BEHALF  OF  THE  SENATE  COMMITTEE   -  Rasumad 

8  BY   MR.    LIMAN: 

9  Q    Wa  ara  now  rasuming  our  third  sassion.   You 

10  ara  still  undar  oath,  Admiral.   I  hava  just  handad  you 

11  Exhibit  37,  which  is  a  mamorandum  dated  December  7,  1985, 

12  from  Oliver  North  to  Mr.  McFarlana  and  you. 

13  (The  document  referred  to  was 

14  marked  Poindaxter  Exhibit 

15  Number  37  for  identification.) 

16  A    Mina  is  dated  December  9. 

17  Q    Did  I  say  December  9? 

18  A    You  said  7. 

19  Q    December  9,  1985,  and  it  begins  with  what  I 

20  would  characterize  as  a  trip  report  on  their  weekend 

21  meeting  in  London. 

22  MR.  BECXLER:   Before  any  questions  are 

23  answered,  maybe  wa  could  just  perhaps  also  put  on  the 

24  record  that  this  obviously  is  a  continuatioa'  of  the 

25  procaading  which  began  with  taking  immunized  testimony. 


ibyi^i<a^i^i^ji! 


1387 


yiteiASsra 


389 


MR.  LIMAN:  This  is  immunized  testimony.  it 
is  in  •xscutiv*  session  of  both  Coamitt««s,  and  it  is  a 
continuation  of  that  imnunizad  tcstiaony. 

MR.  ECGLESTON:   Mayb«  I  should  just  say  on 
behalf  of  th«  Hous*  that  is  corract. 

MR.  BECKI£R:   Thanlc  you,  Mr.  Egglaston. 

MR.  SMALL:   This  is  Exhibit  37? 

8  MR.  LEON:   Yas,  37. 

9  (Pausa.) 

10  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuaing) 

11  Q    Thara  is  attached  to  the  first  memorandum  a 

12  memorandum  of  December  5,  1965.   If  we  can  stop  with  the 

13  December  9,  198S  memorandum,  I'd  like  to  aslc  you  some 

14  questions  about  it. 

15  A    All  right. 

16  Q    In  the  first  place,  do  you  recall  receiving 

17  and  reading  this  memorandum? 

18  A    I  can't  say  that  I  have  a  good  recollection  of 

19  it.   I  probably  did,  but,  you  )cnow,  it's  been  a  long  time 

20  age. 

21  Q    And  is  this  th«  type  of  memorandum  that  you 

22  would  have  given  the  President  a  briefing  on? 

23  ,   A    Yes,  it  is. 

24  Q    And  in  this  memorandum  Colonel  North  lays  out 

25  certain  options, At-W^f  Ji^«^•f^.•  51^  ^*  *'^**  he,  calls  a 


ptions,  at|jyg|  i^^fi 


1388 


UNCLASSIFIED 


390 

X  Ghorbanlfar-Schwim««r  plan,  which  Involves  tha  aala  ot 

2  soma  TOWa  to  tha  Iraniana,  and  that'a  tha  first  option  ha 

3  dascribas. 

4  Tha  sacond  is  ha  talks  about 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H  an 

6  A    That's  corract^^^^^ 

7  Q    Tha  third  is  allowing  tha  Israalia  to  dalivar 

8  400  or  500  TOWS  whila  picking  up  tha  18  KAWKs  in  an 

9  effort  to  show  good  faith  to  both  factions  in  Iran;  am  I 

10  correct? 

11  A    It  makes  that  proposal  as  one  option. 

12  Q    Tha  18  KAWKs  vera  tha  ones  that  ha  refers  to 

13  earlier  in  tha  memorandum  that  had  bean  delivered  to  the 

14  Iranians,  where  ha  says,  for  example,  "at  tha  meeting 

15  with  McFarlana  wa  learned  for  the  first  time  that  the 

16  Iranians  want  desperately  to  return  the  18  basic  KAWK 

17  missiles  which  are  still  in  Tehran,"  on  page  two.   So 

18  that  was  another  option,  right? 

19  A    Right. 

20  Q    Then  ha  talked  about  doing  nothing,  and  there 

21  Colonel  North  stated  the  position  that  ha  had  stated  on  a 

22  number  of  occasions,  that  if  tha.  United  states  did 

2  3  nothing  it  could  be  very  dangerous  and  that  a  "United 

2  4  States  reversal  now  in  mid-stream  could  igni.te  Iranian 

25  fire.   Hostages  would  be  our  minimum  losses."  •',  Right? 


I 


iiNf»«'««iriFn 


1389 


UNCUSSIFIED 


391 


A    Y«a'.   That's  his  asscssmsnt  of  th«  situation. 

Q    And  then  h«  qivas  a  fifth  option,  and  in  that 
fifth  option  h«  dsscribss  ths  possibility  of  using  Sacord 
as  th«  conduit  to  control  Ghorbanifar  and  for  delivery 
oparations.   Do  you  s««  that? 

A    Yas. 

Q    Now  was  this  ths  first  tin*  that  you  had  heard 

8  aj  a  proposal  to  use  Secord  as  an  agent  in  lieu  of  the 

9  Israelis? 

10  A    I  can't  be  certain  because,  you  know,  I  just 

11  don't  remember  all  the  details.   It  probably  was.   I'm 

12  not  quite  sure,  you  know,  what  he  means  here.   My  guess 

13  is  that  when  I  read  that  I  assumed  that  it  would  be  using 

14  Dick  Secord  for  the  delivery  of  weapons  in  Israeli 

15  stocks,  because,  you  see,  I  really  didn't  understand  that 

16  the  Attorney  General  had  a  problem  with  the  Israel  to 

17  Iran,  U.S.  replace  Israel  until  the  meeting  on  the  16th. 

18  So  when  I  read  that,  and  I'm  relatively  sure  that  I  did 

19  at  the  time,  it  didn't  register,  and  I'm  not  sure  that's 

20  what  Ollie  meant  here. 

21  Q    Well,  he  does  talk  about  the  fact  that  this 

22  will  reduce  our  vulnerabilities  in  the  replenishment  of 

23  Israeli  stocks. 

24  A    Yes,  that's  true. 

25  Q    Let  »•  »••  ^^JJ^'LmS:*^  ^""^   on'^his.   You 


1390 


UNCUiSSfflED 


392 


1  )cn«w  whan  North  r«turn«d  from  th«  London  trip  that  h«  was 

2  dissatisfied  with  th«  Israelis'  parforaanc*  on  tha  HAWK 

3  shipment,  right? 

4  A    Yts,  h«  was. 

5  Q    And  you  )cn«w  that  h«  thought  that  th«  Israelis 

6  were  mishandling  the  whole  Ghorbanifar  relationship, 

7  correct? 

8  A    That's  correct.   And  he  wasn't  satisfied  with 

9  Ghorbanifar  either.   None  of  us  were. 

10  Q    Is  it  a  fact  that  North  communicated  to  you 

11  that  he  or  he  and  Secord  felt  that  the  United  States  had 

12  to  get  involved  directly  with  Ghorbanifar  and  not  simply 

13  rely  on  the  Israelis? 

14  A    I'm  not  sure  when  he  arrived  --  he  or  I 

15  arrived  at  that  conclusion.   Eventually  we  did  arrive  at 

16  that  conclusion.   But,  you  know,  reading  this  and 

17  thinking  back  on  it,  what  I  probably  thought  at  the  time 

18  was  that  what  he  was  saying  here  was  that  Secord  would 

19  essentially  replace  Schwimmer  in  the  operation,  because 

20  Schwimmer  was  one  of  the  people  that  he  didn't 

21  particularly  trust. 

22  Q    Well,  was  a  decision  made  at  some  point  that 

23  Secord  ought  to  replace  the  private  Israeli,  Schwimmer 

24  and  Nimrodi  in  dealing  with  Iran?  ; 

25  A    Well,  essentially  when  the  Presidei<^  signed 

ll^!WMQ!fl?:n 


I 


I 


1391 


UHCUSSIHED 


393 


1  th«  final  v«r»ion  of  th«  Finding  on  th«  I7th  of  Januatv 

2  that  dacision  was  mada,  not  nacassarily  Sacord  by  nama 

3  but  that  a  third  party,  and  tha  Intant  thara  was  for  Bill 

4  Casay  to  us*  a  third  party,  DicJc  Sacord,  or  it  could  have 

5  baan  somebody  alsa  at  that  point. 

6  Q    Did  you  avar  haar  tha  nana  of  any  othar  third 

7  party  who  was  contamplatad  to  ba  usad  othar  than  Sacord? 

8  A    No,  I  did  not.   But  I'm  just  saying  that  whan 

9  tha  Finding  was  signad  that  did  not  includa  nacassarily 

10  tha  decision  to  usa  Dick  Sacord.   Tha  Finding  was  broad 

11  anough  that  Bill  Casay  was  laft  to  maka  that  dacision 

12  about  axactly  how  to  carry  it  out. 

13  Q    Did  you  understand  by  tha  tima  you  mat  with 

14  Dick  Sacord  on  January  17  that  Sacord  had  baan  stationed 

15  in  Iran? 

16  X    Yas. 

17  Q    And  that  ha  had  soma  knowledge  of  Iran? 

18  A    Yes. 

19  Q    Did  you  know  that  he  had  a  partner.  Hakim,  who 

20  could  speak  Farsi  at  that  point? 

21  A    At  that  point  X  didn't  know  that,  to  the  best 

22  of  my  knowledge. 

23  Q    And  you  knew  that  Secord  had  had  some 

24  experience  in  special  operations?  ^ 

25  A    Yes,  I  knew  that. 


1392 


UNCUkSSIflED 


394 


1  Q    And  that  h«  had  a  raputation  of  baing  abla  to 

2  gat  things  dona? 

3  A    Ha  did.   I  had  tha  iaprasaion  that  Dick  Sacord 

4  was  an  idaal  candidata  to  carry  out  this  mission. 

5  Q    Now  you'va  alraady  tastifiad  at  that  tima  that 

6  you  did  not  anvision  tha  rola  of  tha  agant  as  baing  to 

7  maka  profits. 

8  A    That  is  corract. 

9  Q    And  whan  you  talkad  to  Sacord  on  tha  17th 

10  Sacord  stressed  with  you  that  ha  was  intarastad  in 

11  getting  involved  if  this  would  be  an  initiative  to 

12  establish  a  relationship  with  Iran  and  not  just  a  plain 

13  hostaga-for-ams  swap? 

14  A    To  tha  bast  of  ny  knowledge. 

15  Q    Did  you  find,  yourself,  Admiral,  tha  notion  oi 

16  an  arms-for-hostage  swap  to  be  distasteful? 

17  A    I  frankly  don't  find  that  distasteful.   I 

18  think  that  wa  live  in  a  very  imperfect  world,  a  vary 

19  dangerous  world,  and  sometimes  you  don't  have  the  best 

20  options  or  the  ideal  option,  and  you'va  got  to  do  what's 

21  necessary. 

22  Q    What  is  your  response  to  those  who  say  — 

23  A    I  view  it  much  more  pragmatically? 

24  Q    What  is  your  response  to  those  pr^gmatists  who 

25  say  that  if  you  start  swapping  arms  for  hostages  you  are 


1393 


VNCUSSIFIED 


395 


1  only  going  to  •ncourag*  th«  taking  of  most  hoitag«»? 

2  I'd  li)c«  to  show  this  consultation  b«caus«  on 

3  this  on«  I  think  h«  could  answar  this  without  you,  Mr. 

4  B«ckl«r. 

5  (Counsal  confarring  with  th«  witnass.) 

6  MR.  LIMAN:  This  has  nothing  to  do  with 

7  rsfrashing  hia. 

8  MR.  BECKLER:   Mr.  Linan,  h*  is  par fact ly 

9  capabla  of  answaring  avary  q[uastion  without  consulting 

10  with  na.   That  is  not  nacassarily  why  I  consult  with  him. 

11  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rasuming) 

12  Q    May  I  hava  tha  answer  to  this  ona? 

13  A    Would  you  nind  rapaating  tha  quastion,  please? 

14  Q    I  wanted  to  know  what  is  your  response  to 

15  those  pragmatists  who  say  that  if  you  start  swapping  arms 

16  for  hostages  you  will  just  simply  encourage  the  taking  of 

17  mora  hostages. 

18  AX  would  make  two  points.   One,  we  didn't  feel 

19  and  didn't  believe,  the  intelligence  didn't  indicate, 

20  that  the  Iranians  were  holding  the  hostages.   It  was  a 

21  separate  group  in  Lebanon,  a  faction  of  the  Hizbollah. 

22  W«  didn't  feel  that  tha  Iranians  had  conplet*  control 

23  ov«r  th«  situation.   We  certainly  felt  that  they  had  some 

24  influence  and  could  bring  pressure  to  bear. 

25  You  see,  the  President  never  did  view  —  and. 


lINf^MIED 


1394 


wmm 


396 


you  know,  it  was  a  fin«  lin«,  but  I  think  his  rational* 
was  right  and  I  agrtad  with  him  --  that  wa  wara  not 
daaling  ams  for  hostagas,  although  frankly  that  doasn't 
hava  tha  sama  impact  on  ma  that  it  doas  on  soma  paopla. 

Tha  saeond  point  is  that  tha  objactivas  of  the 
radical  fundamantalist  groups  in  tha  Middla  East  go  far 
bayond  ams  or  anything  alsa  that  wa  wara  talking  about. 

8  And  I  think  that  tha  dangar  of  incraasad  hostaga-taking 

9  existad  whathar  thara  wara  ams  involvad  or  not  involvad. 

10  Q    Now,  Admiral,  attached  to  tha  Dacambar  9  memo 

11  is  a  December  5  memo.   It  happens  to  be  attached  to  it, 

12  which  is  tha  way  in  which  wa  received  these  documents. 

13  I'm  not  sura  it  was  attached  originally. 

14  A    I  haven't  read  that  one  yet. 

15  Q    Could  you  take  a  look  at  it  and  just  see  if 

16  you  recall  reading  it  and  in  particular  I  call  your 

17  attention  on  the  first  page  to  where  they  describe  the 

18  Israeli  shipment  of  500  TOWs  in  September  of  1985  and  the 

19  author  of  tha  document  says  "prior  to  commencing  this 

20  operation  wa  committed  to  tha  Israelis  that  we  would  sell 

21  tham  replacements  for  tha  itana  that  they  had  sold  and 

22  delivered  to  Iran.   Two  days  later,  Reverend  Benjamin 

23  Wair  was  released." 

24  Anyway,  if  you  could  look  at  it  ahd  just  tall 

25  n«  whether  you  saw  this  document. 


iiNi».u!^Ainfn 


1395 


1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


(Paua«.) 

A    All  right.   I'v«  r«ad  it. 

Q    Admiral,  it   you  look  at  that,  do  you  r«m«mb«r 
whathar  or  not  you  saw  that  mamorandua  at  tha  tima? 

A  I  probably  did.  I  think  this  was  tha  first 
indication  or  --  wall,  tha  thing  that  makas  ma  baliava 
that  I  saw  it  at  tha  tima  was! 


Q    And  was  this  tha  first  indication  that  you  had 
that  wa  had  committed  to  tha  Israelis  to  replace  the  500 
TOWS? 

A    It  probably  was.   I  didn't  recall  knowing  this 
this  early,  but  it  looks  like  that  I  did. 

Q    Now  let's  move  on  to  the  January  6  Finding. 
MR.  LEON:   Arthur,  could  I  just  ask  the 
Adniral,  who  wrote  that  memo.  Admiral,  as  far  as  you  can 
tell? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  think  it  has  any  marks 
on  it. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 
Q    Does  it  read  like  an  Oliver  North  memo? 

MR.  BECKLER:   If  you  don't  know,  you  don't 
know. 

THE  WITNESS:   Well,  the  cover  memo  says  from 
Oliver  North  to  Mr.  McFarlane  and  to  me. 


IIMftlif^fJIFIFn 


1396 


UNCLASSIFIED 


398 

MR.  8ECKLER:   But  th«y  don't  know  if  thas*  are 
attached. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Rcsunlng) 
Q    Do«s  it  read  lik*  an  Olivar  North  ntmo?  You 
can,  after  a  whila,  start  getting  a  sans*  of  tha  styla  of 

6  a  parson. 

7  AX  obviously  can't  b«  positive,  but  it  looks 

8  like  an  Oliver  North  memo. 

9  MR.  LEON:   The  last  paragraph  reads  to  me  like 

10  ah  Oliver  North  memo.   Z  just  wanted  to  see  if  you 

11  rememher. 

12  (A  discussion  was  held  off  the  record.) 

13  '  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

14  Q    Admiral,  when  you  asked  Oliver  North  to 

15  prepare  the  new  Finding  in  the  beginning  of  January  after 

16  you  met  with  Nir,  did  you  give  him  any  instructions  to 

17  leave  out  any  reference  to  hostages? 

18  A    No,  I  don't  recall  that. 

19  Q    The  reason  I  ask  you  this  — 

20  A    In  fact,  I  told  him  to  begin  working  on  a  new 

21  Finding  actually  in  early  December. 

22  Q    Before  or  after  his  trip  to  London? 

23  A    That  I  can't  be  sure  of  —  probably  after. 

24  "   Q    The  first  work  that  was  done  on  the  new 

25  Finding,  I  will  tell  you,  began  on  January  2,    1986,  which 


till 


1397 


ttgUSSW 


399 


X  !•  wh«n  Nir  visit*  you.   Ooas  that  r«fr««h  your 

2  r«coll«ction  as  to  whan  your  instruction*  vara  givan  to 

3  hin? 

4  A    No,  bacausa  I  think  that  thara  was  praliminary 

5  work  dona  in  Dacambar,  bacausa  tha  raason  I  baliava  that 

6  is  that  aftar  tha  7  Oacambar  maating,  which  to  my 

7  racollaction  was  tha  first  maating  Z  had  an  opportunity 

8  to  haar  in  datail  Sacratary  Shults  and  Saeratary 

9  Wainbargar  raisa  thair  obj actions,  thay  mada  such  a  big 

10  issua  of  tha  illagality  of  it  that  I'm  ralativaly  cartain 

11  latar  aftar  that,  but  yat  in  early  Oacambar,  I  askad 

12  Colonal  Korth  to  talk  to  tha  Attornay  Ganaral  or  his 

13  paopla  about  that  problam,  bacausa  claarly  if  it  wara 

14  lllagal  wa  couldn't  go  ahaad  with  it. 

15  Q    And  if  it  wara  illagal  you  had  a  problaa  in 

16  tarns  of  thos*  Saptambar  shipmants? 

17  A    Z  can't  say  that  that  — 

18  Q    That  that  occurrad  to  you? 

19  A    That  occurrad  to  ma  at  tha  tima. 

20  Q    That  was  bafor*  your  watch  anyway. 

21  A    Wall,  Z  just  don't  racall  thinking  about  that. 

22  Z  tand  to  look  toward  th«  futur*. 

23  Q    Zn  tha  discussions  that  took  plac*  at  tha 

24  OaSambar  7  maating  was  thara  any  rafaranca  mada  to  tha 

25  fact  that  w*  had  dona  it  alraady  in  Saptambar/ and  in 

1 


mm^mm^ 


1398 


UNCLASSIRED 


400 


1  November? 

2  A    I  can't  remember  that. 

3  Q    Do  you  remember  that  neeting  as  being  a 

4  forward-looking  meeting  --  should  we  go  ahead  with  the 

5  new  Israeli  plan? 

6  A    That's  correct.   And  let  me  make  one  other 

7  point  clear.   It  wasn't  clear  to  me  that  what  Secretary 

8  Shultz  and  Secretary  Weinberger  were  saying  was  correct. 

9  Q    You  are  not  a  lawyer;  I  understand  that. 

10  A     No. 

11  Q    And  the  Attorney  General  was  not  at  the 
12-  meeting  on  December  7,  was  he? 

13  A    He  was  not.   In  hindsight  — 

14  Q    In  hindsight  what? 

15  A    It  would  have  been  helpful  if  he  had  been 

16  there. 

17  Q    But  let  me  stop  at  December  7.   December  7  the 

18  decision  that  was  made  was  to  let  McFarlane  go  to  London, 

19  correct? 

20  A    That  is  right. 

21  Q    And  there  was  not  a  decision  made  on  December 

22  7  to  sell  more  ams  to  Iran;  correct? 

23  A    That  is  correct. 

24  Q    And  by  the  time  any  further  shipment  was  made 

25  to  Iran  the  Attorney  General  of  the  United  States  had 

mm  ««sorr. 


1J99 


UNUSIFIED 


40X 

1  b«€n  consulted? 

2  A    That's  correct. 

3  Q    And  h«  ind««d  had  ravlawad  th«  plan  that 
*  ultimataly  was  implsmantsd,  corract? 

5  A    That's  right. 

<  Q    And  h«  had  givan  his  blessing  to  it,  right? 

7  A    That's  corract. 

8  Q    And  the  Sacratary  of  Oafansa  had  voiced  his 

9  own  objections,  correct? 
10  A    That's  right. 

^^  Q    And  do  you  remember  at  the  meeting  that  was 

12  had  in  the  White  House  on  January  16  that  the  Secretary 

13  of  Defense  said  that  he  wanted  to  talk  to  counsel  for  the 

14  Department  before  signing  off? 

15  A    I  don't  recall  that. 

1*  Q    Do  you  remember  him  ever  saying  that  he  was 

17  going  to  spealc  to  his  own  lawyers  in  the  Department  of  " 

18  Defense? 

19  MR.  BECXLER:   Let  ne  raise  an  objection  at 

20  this  time.   Obviously  unless  you  were  present  at  those 

21  meetings,  Mr.  Liman,  you  have  an  unbelievable  amount  of 

22  material  that  lays  out  what  happened  at  all  these 

23  meetings,  and  we  now  —  let  a*  finish  ay  objection, 

24  ple'ase  --  as  you  know,  we  have  been  provided, with  no 

25  documents  for  this  deposition,  no  preparation,^  no 


^^litMiFiES 


1400 


UNCUkSSIHED 


402 


1  opportunity  to  s««  any  of  thasa  materials. 

2  And  this  mods  of  taking  ths  Admiral  through 

3  sach  thing  and  than  —  wsll,  I  could  tail  you  raally  what 

4  was  going  to  happan  by  showing  you  that  mamo,  I  must  say 

5  that  at  soma  point  it  crossas  tha  lina  ovar  to  a  position 

6  whara  it's  not  going  to  ba  fundamantally  fair  to  hava 

7  this  procaad  in  this  way. 

8  MR.  LZMAN:   Mr.  Backlar,  I  hava  shown  him  in 

9  ganaral  avary  documant  bafora  I  quastion  him  about  tha 

10  avant.   Soma  avants  ara  subject  to  testimony  which  may  or 

11  may  not  ba  correct,  and  if  the  Admiral  does  not  have  a 

12  recollection  of  it,  then  he  puts  that  on  the  record.   If 

13  it  does  refresh  his  recollection  and  he  remembers  it, 

14  then  he  says  so. 

15  So  I  see  nothing  unfair  about  that  way  of 

16  proceeding  and  I  know  of  no  other  way  of  proceeding  when 

17  I'm  dealing  in  part  with  people's  memories. 

18  MR.  BECKLER:   If  this  were  a  normal  deposition 

19  I  perhaps  might  agree  with  that,  although  even  in  some 

20  normal  depositions  access  is  given  to  documents  that  will 

21  be  used  in  those  depositions  by  the  parties,  although 

22  that  has  not  been  done  in  this  case. 

23  However,  as  I  stated  yesterday,  this  is  not  a 

24  norroal  deposition.   Admiral  Poindexter  is  a  .'man  who  has 
23  received  immunity  from  tha  Senate.   He  has  be«i  declared 

-inwM^FlFn 


1401 


UNCLASSIFIED 


403 


a  targ«t  of  a  spaclal  proaacutor'a  invastlgatlon  for  tha 
vary  sama  facts  which  you  ara  now  quaatloning  him  about, 
and  1  baliava  ha  is  in  sarioua  jaopardy  at  avary  momant, 
•vary  stap  of  tha  way. 

You  hava  said  yastarday,  Mr.  Liman,  that  you 
ara  only  a  connarcial  litigator,  but  1  baliava  this  to  ba 
in  tha  natura  of  a  criminal  invastlgation  in  which  tha 
Sanata  is  cooparating  somawhat  with  tha  spacial  counsal 
in  an  attampt  to  yas,  giva  somabody  immunity  but  yat 
dapriva  that  parson  of  avary  possibla  advantaga  that  he 
might  garnar  from  gatting  such  immunity. 

And  I  want  to  put  you  on  notica  to  that  fact. 

MR.  LIMAK:   Wall,  Admiral  Poindaxtar  is  going 
to  ba  a  public  witnass  in  tha  beginning  of  July  and  all 
of  his  avidanca  is  going  to  ba  public  than,  and  I  do  not 
sea  my  rola  hara  as  aithar  baing  a  prosecutor  or  as  an 
aide  to  a  prosecutor.   I  sea  tha  rola  that  I  hava  been 
given  as  to  develop  all  of  tha  facts,  to  do  it  in  a  way 
that  does  not  cause  any  kind  of  unnecessary  interference 
with  other  branches  of  government,  but  to  get  the  facts, 
whatever  tha  consequences  may  ba. 

So  let's  proceed. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 
Q    Now,  Admiral,  I'm  just  asking  you,  you 
understand,  whether  you  recall  thatLtha  Secretary  of 


1402 


UNSUSSIFIED 


1  Defense  at  that  meeting  or  any  oth«r  maatlng  said  that  he 

2  was  seeking  counsel  from  his  own  Department  before 

3  signing  off  on  the  January  17  Finding. 

4  A    I  simply  don't  recall.   I'm  sorry. 

5  Q    Now  you  testified  a  moment  ago  that  you  never 

6  instructed  North  to  omit  from  the  proposed  new  rinding 

7  reference  to  hostages;  is  that  correct? 

8  A    That's  correct  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge. 

9  Q    But  you  wanted  a  Finding  that  would  have 

10  objectives  other  than  just  plain  arms  for  hostages;  is 

11  that  correct? 

12  A    That  is  correct,  because  — 

13  Q    Did  you  give  him  the  objectives  to  be  put  in 

14  the  Finding  or  did  he  define  those  objectives  based  on 

15  discussions  with  you? 

16  A    My  recollection  is  that  they  were  based  on 

17  discussions  with  me  and  I  probably  did  not  provide  the 

18  detailed  objectives  that  finally  wound  up  in  the  draft  of 

19  the  Finding,  but  I  wanted  to  make  it  clear  that  our  major 

20  objective  was  a  strategic  opening  to  Iran. 

21  Q    Now  1*11  mark  as  two  exhibits,  first  a 

22  memorandum  to  you  dated  January. 4,  1986,  from  Lieutenant 

23  Colonel  North  that  encloses  a  draft  memorandum  from  you 

24  to  the  President  and  a  draft  of  the  January  H   Finding, 

25  and  that  will  be  marked  as  Exhibit  38. 


1403 


UNCUfflED 


405 


(Th«  docuinant  r«f«rr«d  to  was 
Bark«d  Polnd«xt«r  Exhibit 
Muinb«r  38  for  identification. 
And  than  as  Exhibit  39  what  appears  to  b«  a 
revision  of  th«  draft  from  you  to  th«  President  with  the 
January  6  Finding  attached.   And  just  from  the  context, 
because  this  is  not  dated,  the  cover  memo  here,  but  from 

8  the  context  it  appears  to  me  that  this  probably  the 

9  revision  of  the  draft  that  was  Exhibit  38. 

10  (The  document  referred  to  was 

11  -  marked  Poindexter  Exhibit 

12  Number  39  for  identification.) 

13  What  I'm  going  to  ask  you  is  whether  you  have 

14  any  recollection  of  these  documents,  whether  you  can 

15  place  them  in  sequence  in  terms  of  which  one  came  first 

16  and  also  whether  you  can  recall  the  reason  for  the 

17  change*.   And  I  think  in  looking  at  the  first  paragraph 

18  of  the  cover  memorandum  you  can  see  the  tone  of  the 

19  changes,  which  was  to,  if  I  can  characterize  it,  to 

20  refine  the  description  of  the  role  of  Israel  and  define 

21  it  somewhat  differently  from  the  way  it  was  in  the  other 

22  draft. 

23  (Pause.) 

24  -    A    You  know,  the  files  from  which  these  come  you 

25  should  be  able  —  the  files  *re  usually  in  <)r%tty  good 


Le  —  the  files  are  usuall 

UNWSIFi 


1404 


UNCLASSIHED 


406 


condition. 

Q    Admiral,  for  a  lot  of  reasons,  son*  of  which 
ralat*  to  what  Colonel  North  did  on  Nov«Bb«r  21  and  son* 
of  which  rclat*  to  th«  way  in  which  th«  documents  ware 
reviewed  by  the  FBI,  they  are  not  in  perfect  condition. 

For  example,  the  document  that  you  are  looking 
at,  38,  indicates  that  it  came  from  North's  file.   That's 

8  what  the  N  stands  for,  and  the  document  that  is  39  also 

9  indicates  that  it  came  from  North's  file. 

10  A    That's  the  problem. 

11  (Pause.) 

12  Q    Would  it  be  helpful  to  you.  Admiral,  if  I 

13  showed  you  what  the  changes  were? 

14  A    Let  me  just  skim  it  first  and  see  what  we've 

15  got  here. 

16  Q    We  have  a  marked  up  copy  of  it  that  does  show 

17  the  changes. 

18  A    Okay.   That  would  be  helpful. 

19  (Pause.) 

20  Q    Are  you  able  to  tell  by  looking  at  them  which 

21  came  first? 

22  A    No,  I  can't.   You'd  have  to  have  a  pretty 

23  detailed  memory. 

24  Q    Do  you  remember?  ; 

25  A    I'm  not  even  sure  I've  seen  these  drafts. 


llNni#fliFIFn 


1405 


msMB 


407 


J-  Q    Do  you  r«m«mb«r.  Admiral,  wh«th«r  North  told 

2  you  prior  to  January  6  that  h«  had  spokan  to  tha  Attorney 

3  Ganaral  and  obtained  lagal  advica? 

4  A    My  racollaction  is  that  I  want  into  tha 

5  Baating  on  7  January,  which  I  thinJe  was  tha  data  of  the 

6  maating  wa  had  in  tha  Oval  Offica,  with  By  undaratanding, 

7  although  Z  don't  baliava  at  that  point  Z  had  parsonally 

8  spokan  to  tha  Attornay  Ganaral,  but  my  racollaction  is 

9  that  I  want  into  that  maating  thinking  that  tha  Attorney 

10  Ganaral  was  on  board  and  didn't  sea  any  legal  problem  as 

11  long  as  it  was  covered  by  a  Fir.ding. 

12  Q    Now  tha  last  page  of  Exhibit  39  has  a  draft  of 

13  tha  Finding  which  has  handwritten  in  it  "and  third 

14  parties",  and  there  was  testimony  before  the  Tower  Board, 

15  which  was  reported,  that  that  was  written  in  by  Sporkin 

16  when  ha  changed  the  January  6  Finding  to  the  January  17 

17  Finding.   It  bears  the  signature  of  Ronald  Reagan. 

18  Is  this  the  Finding  that  you  have  previously 

19  testified  that  was  in  the  President's  briefing  book  and 

20  that  he  signed? 

21  A    Z  don't  recall  whether  it  was  in  his  briefing 

22  book  or  whether  Z  discussed  it  with  hia  at  the  normal 

23  9:30  that  morning.   Z  don't  believe  Z  testified  before 

24  tha't  it  was  in  the  briefing  book.   It  could  Have  been.   I 

25  just  don't  recall.   It  was  either  in  the  briefing  book  or 


lll^f^&(s^1FIED 


1406 


UNClASSinED 


408 


1  cov«r«d  in  th*  brl«fing. 

2  I  rather  would  gu«ss  that  it  was  covarad  in 

3  th«  briefing. 

4  Q    Did  yeu  actually  s««  hia  sign  it? 

5  AX  can't  ramambar  that  bacausa  that  would 

6  dapand  on  which  way  I  did  it.   It  could  hava  baan  dona 

7  eithar  way. 

8  Q    Did  you  avar  tall  him,  Mr.  Prasidant,  you 

9  signad  this  by  mistaka? 

10  A    I  don't  racall  that. 

11  Q    Let  ma  just  show  you  — 

12  A    But  on  tha  17th,  when  he  signed  the  other 

13  version,  I  obviously  would  hava  discussed  with  him  the 

14  changes  that  we  felt  were  necessary  in  the  6  January. 

15  Q    We'll  come  to  that.   Now  the  differences 

16  between  the  two  Exhibits  I  have  given  you,  33  and  39,  are 

17  indicated  in  these  sheets  I'm  going  to  hand  you.   Tha 

18  yellow  means  that  that  was  taken  out  and  the  blue  is 

19  what's  added.   If  you  will  just  look  at  it,  you  can  see 

20  what  the  changes  are. 

21  The  c[uestion  is,  does  it  refresh  your 

22  recollection? 

23  A    Now  yellow  is  — 

24  "   Q    Means  that  in  the  retyping  that  tjhe  yellow 

25  portions  were  deleted  and^thi^Ujuk portions  we're 

Pol 


1407 


mmmm 


409 


1  subatitutad. 

2  A    That  asaumaa  a  aaquanca,  though.   So  th« 

3  y«llow  la  in  thia  ona  and  not  in  thia  on«,  and  tha  blua 

4  is  in  thia  on*  and  not  in  thia  on*  (indicating). 

5  Q    That 'a  correct. 

6  (Paua*.) 

7  Any  recollection  at  all? 

8  A    It  raally  do«an't  h*lp. 

9  Q    X  am  going  to  n*xt  nark  aon*  notaa  of  youra 

10  that  w«r*  found  at  th*  NSC.   It 'a  two  pag*a  —  th*  aacond 

11  on*  ia  b*ing  X«rox*d  now  and  will  b*  attachad  --  which 

12  r*f*ra  to  a  January  7,  1986,  mamo  —  January  7,  1986 

13  maating  at  9:30  in  th*  morning. 

14  (Th*  docuffl*nt  r*f*rr*d  to  waa 

15  nar)c*d  Poind*xt*r  Exhibit 

16  Numb*r  40  for  id*ntif ication. ) 

17  MR.  BECKLER:   I'd  lik*  th*  r*cord  to  r*flact 

18  that  thaa*  not**  ar*  not**  mad*  by  Admiral  Poindaxtar  in 

19  hi*  o*m  handwriting  and  th*  Whit*  Houa*  haa  r*fua*d  to 

20  provid*  th***  not**  to  u*  but  y*t  haa  providad  tham  to 

21  th*  S*nat*  and,  I  pr*aum*,  to  th*  lnd*p*nd*nt  Couna*l, 

22  and  our  first  accass  to  th*s*  not**  tak**  plac*  at  th* 

23  exact  mom*nt  th*  (iu«»tion«  ar*  b*ing  as)c*d  about  th*a* 

24  no€*s.  , 

25  MR.  LIMAM:   Your  obaarvation  ia  notAd  and  I 


1408 


UN(t0lt8 


410 


1  hav«  a  slightly  —  do  you  hav«  th«  original  copy  th«ra? 

2  I  hav«  a  slightly  battar  copy. 

3  MR.  LZON:   I  was  just  going  to  ask  what  tha 

4  stamp  nuinbar  is  in  tha  uppar  righthand  cornar  ot   tha  ■ 

5  £irst  paga.   Can  you  raad  it? 

6  MR.  LIMAN:   N-7840,  which  is  our  Batas  number. 

7  MR.  LIMAN:     L«t  m«  show  you  tha  battar  copy 

8  that  wa  hava.   You  should  understand,  Mr.  Backlar,  that 

9  this  is  tha  condition  in  which  wa  gat  then,  too,  so  wa 

10  gat  sacond,  third  or  fifth  ganaration  copias. 

11  MR.  SMALL:   But  at  least  you  gat  tham. 

12  MR.  L£ON:   I  don't  even  Icnow  if  tha  House  got 

13  these. 

14  MR.  EGGLTSTON:   I  can  represent  for  the  record 

15  that  the  House  got  these  and  I  have  seen  them. 

16  (Pause.) 

17  MR.  BECXLER:   That's  endemic  to  the  problem  of 

18  this  thing.   It's  a  very  slanted  proceeding. 

19  MR.  LIMAN:   I  object  to  that  and  I  don't  think 

20  it  has  b«en  a  slanted  proceeding.   I  think  we've  given 

21  every  witness  an  opportunity  to  give  his  story.   We  have 

22  subjected  them  all  to  cross  examination  and  if  the  mail 

23  that  I've  gotten  indicates  anything  about  slant,  it's 

24  that   some  people  think  it's  been  slanted  too  much  in 

25  favor  of  the  contra  cause.  *  '^ 

loi 


1409 


Wtte 


411 


'  1  But;  l«t ' s   go   on. 

2  MR.  BECKLER:   I  would  lik«  to  respond  to  that. 

3  MR.  LIMAN:   You  can  respond  to  all  thos« 

4  Icttars  I'm  gatting. 

5  MR.  BECKLER:   W«  hava  our  own  lattars,  too. 

6  But  Minority  Counsal's  atatamant  that  ha  haa  not  avan 

7  ]cnown  of  tha  axlstanca  of  thasa  docunants  indlcatas  tha 

8  political  natura  of  this  procaading. 

9  MR.  LIMAN:   That's  a  lot  of  nonsansa.   Ha  has 

10  had  accass  to  this,  as  hava  othars  thara,  and  tha  fact 

11  that  ha  doasn't  remambar  avary  documant  or  hasn't  raad 

12  avary  docunant  is  not  somathing  that  should  giva  risa  to 

13  an  infaranca.   You  ought  to  spaak  for  yoursalf. 

14  MR.  LEON:  Arthur,  lat  aa  spaalc  for  aysalf , 

15  plaasa.   Z  know  you'd  lika  to  spaak  for  ma.   I'm  just 

16  indicating  that  I'm  not  familiar  with  this  particular 

17  documant.   It  might  in  fact  ba  in  tha  storaga  of  all  tha 

18  documant*  that  tha  Housa  has  ovar  in  tha  Housa  vault  of 

19  tha  documant!  that  wa  hava  sat  asida  for  Admiral 

20  Poindaxtar.   I  don't  racall  saaing  this.   That  doasn't 

21  nacassarily  maan  it's  not  ovar  thara. 

22  MR.  LIMAN:   And  you  hava  accass  to  all  tha 

23  documant*  that  you  hava  racaivad. 

24  "        MR.  LEON:   I  hopa  so. 

25  MR.  EGGLESTON:   1  should  say  that  w%  ara 


iwi^Fe 


1410 


1  maintaining  joint  documant  accass  with  tha  minority 

2  counsal  bacausa  wa  hava  ona  larga  araa  whare  wa  Icaap 

3  docuaants  and  minority  as  wall  as  majority  hava  aqua! 

4  accass  to  thosa  documants. 

5  MR.  LIMAH:   And  I  can  vouch  for  majority  and 

6  minority  on  my  Committaa. 

7  MR.  LEON:   Howavar,  as  to  tha  Admiral's  '86 

8  calandar  of  appointmants  and  tha  Admiral's  talaphona 

9  logs,  thara  was  only  ona  copy,  sat  of  thosa  providad  by 

10  tha  Whita  Housa  to  day,  and  thosa  war*  providad  to  tha 

11  Sanata  on  a  daal  batwaan  tha  Sanata  and  tha  Whita  Housa, 

12  and  I'va  baan  infomad  just  this  morning  that  tha  White 

13  Housa  is  going  to  provida  a  saparata  sat  of  thosa  for  tha 

14  Housa,  majority  and  minority. 

15  MR.  LIMAN:   Just  so  it's  claar,  wa  got  thosa 

16  yastarday. 

17  MS.  FOLEY:   Just  yastarday? 

18  MR.  LIMAN:   Wa  wara  givan  accass  to  tham,  Z 

19  think  a  coupla  of  days  aarliar  to  look  at  tham  but  not 

20  allowad  to  hava  a  copy,  and  w«  hava  now  baan  antrustad 

21  with  custody  of  thasa. 

22  MR.  BECXLER:   I'm  happy  to  haar  that  tha 

23  Sanata  and  tha  Housa  hava  gottan  copias  of  thasa  things, 

24  bu^  I'd  lika  to  say  that  wa  mada  a  raquast  for  tha 

25  Admiral's  9:30  fila  to  tha  Whita  Housa  back  ln.'Oacambar 


msmm 


1411 


HNGy^ro 


413 

1  Of  1986  and  w«  n«v«r  got  it  till  this  morning. 

2  THE  WITNESS:   And  this  isn't  all  of  it. 

3  MR.  BECKLER:   In  fact,  v'v   only  baen  given 

4  ona  copy  whila  wa'ra  baing  askad  tha  quastions,  and  this 

5  is  what  I  raaan  about  tha  collusion  batwaan  tha 

6  Indapandant  Counsal,  tha  Sanata  and  tha  Housa  and  tha 

7  Whit*  Housa. 

8  MR.  LZMAN:   That's  an  outragaoua  statement, 

9  bacausa  if  he's  gotten  a  copy  of  his  9:30  file  he's  ahead 

10  of  us. 

11  MR.  BECKLER:   I  just  said  ha  has  not  gotten 

12  it. 

13  MR.  LIMAN:   I  thought  you  just  said  he's 

14  gotten  it  today. 

15  MR.  BECKLER:   Ho.   The  first  time  he's  seen 

16  anything  from  his  9:30  file  is  whan  he's  about  to  ba 

17  askad  a  question  about  it,  and  wa  requested  this  material 

18  back  in  Oacambar.   wa  ware  told  by  tha  White  Housa  that 

19  tha  Indapandant  Counsal  raises  an  objection  to  providing 

20  any  information  to  our  cliant  bacausa  tha  Independent 

21  Counsal  faals  that  if  tha  Whita  Housa  cooparatas  in  any 

22  way,  shape  or  form  tha  White  Housa  will  ba  accused  of 

23  obstruction  of  justica  by  tha  Indapandant  Counsal. 

24  -  Ha  has  put  a  chill  ovar  this.   Tharefora,  ha 
23  has  prajudicad  this  proceeding  as  wall  as  oiharr 


*  1**  »_! 


iiNfii^ii^.<;iFiFn 


1412 


UNimiFIED 


414 


1  proceedings. 

2  MR.  LIMAN:  Mr.  B«c>cl«r,  your  objection  is 

3  noted. 

4  MR.  BECKLER:   Thank  you. 

5  MR.  LIMAN:   The  record  will  also  reflect  that 

6  we  are  showing  to  the  Adniral  these  documents,  i  haven't 

7  asked  hin  a  question  about  this  before  Z  showed  him  the 

8  docuaent.   Whether  the  Independent  Counsel  agrees  with  my 

9  showing  him  documents  or  not  I  do  not  seem  to  have  been 

10  inhibited,  and  so  let's  proceed. 

11  BY  MR.  LIMAN:   (Resuming) 

12  Q    Admiral,  you  are  now  looking  at  notes  that  you 

13  took;  is  that  correct? 

14  A    That's  my  handwriting. 

15  Q    And  do  these  refer  to  notes  related  to  the 

16  meeting  that  you  were  having  that  day  with  the  NSC 

17  principals? 

18  A    To  put  these  two  pages  of  Exhibit  4  0  in 

19  perspective,  these  are  pages  out  of  what  I  call  my  9:30 

20  file,  which  was  a  looseleaf  file  —  most  of  the  pages 

21  were  on  yellow  legal  pad,  but  this  one  appears  to  be  on  a 

22  5  by  7  note  pad  —  of  agendas  that  Z  made  up  prior  to  my 

23  9:30  meeting  each  morning  with  the  President  as  to  the 

24  items  Z  wanted  to  cover  with  him. 

25  MR.  BECKLER:   Mav  J . j^j^, |gr  a  brief.' recess  to 


1413 


UNEIASSIREB 


415 


1  discuss  this  with  my  cli«nt? 

2  MR.  LIMAM:   Sur*. 

3  (A  briaf  racass  was  takan.) 

4  KR.  LIMAN:   Lat's  go  on  tha  racord. 

5  I'll  taka  you  through  thasa  notas.   I'm  going 

6  to  try  to  avoid  going  through  thasa  docunanta  which  taka 

7  you  a  considarabla  amount  of  tima  to  raad  and  which  I 

8  undarstand  that  othar  than  to  tha  axtant  that  thay  hava 

9  baan  in  tha  Towar  raport  you  havan't  saan  for  a  whila. 

10  I  am  going  to  axtand  an  invitation  to  you  and 

11  ■  to  your  counsal  to  raviaw  thase  documents  bafora  our  next. 

12  session,  which  would  be  after  you  return  fi'oa  your 

13  holiday,  and  to  give  you  an  opportunity  so  that  you  can 

14  become  reacquaintad  with  some  documents  that  you  haven't 

15  seen  for  a  while. 

16  I  think  that's  in  the  interest  of  the 

17  Committees,  in  your  own  interest,  and  the  public 

18  interest,  and  to  the  extent  that  any  of  the  questions 

19  that  I  will  ask  for  the  rest  of  this  session  really  are 

20  matters  that  you  don't  have  a  recollection  on  but  where 

21  If  you  had  access  to  these  documents  it  might  refresh 

22  your  recollection,  then  let  me  say  to  you  that  you  should 

23  say  that  or  your  counsel  should  say  that  and  we  can 

24  poitpone  those  questions  until  the  next  ses^on. 

25  MR.  BECKLER:   Mr.  Liman,  thank  you  .'for  your 


iiWf^miFlEO 


1414 


HNwra 


1  stat«m«nt.   I- gathar  it  Is  pr«cipitat«d  somewhat  by  our 

2  off  th«  rscord  session.   Lst  m«  just  stat*  that  basically 

3  our  concarn  transcends  naraly  th«  opportunity  to  now 

4  axamin*  a  documant  bafora  a  question  is  answered. 

5  As  I  said  before,  I  have  had  a  continuing 

6  concern  which  I  have  raised  with  you  not  only  today  but 

7  yesterday  and  in  the  past  about  the  fact  that  everybody 

8  in  the  world  has  been  given  access  —  well,  let  ne  not 

9  say  everybody  in  the  world,  but  let's  say  the  Senate  and 

10  the  House  have  been  given  access  to  documents  prepared  by 

11  Admiral  Poindexter  but  yet  the  Independent  Counsel  has 

12  denied  us  having  access  to  these  documents. 

13  I  believe  that  this  entire  proceeding  is 

14  controlled  somewhat  or  manipulated,  with  non  fault  of 

15  yours,  Mr.  Liman,  by  the  Independent  Counsel,  because 

16  basically  what  has  in  effect  happened  is  that  one  party 

17  to  a  litigation  —  the  litigation  being  the  dispute 

18  between  the  House  and  the  Senate  and  the  various 

19  witnesses  — ■  has  been  given  access  to  relevant  documents 

20  and  the  other  party  has  not.   And  is  has  seriously 

21  prejudiced  our  client. 

22  I  also  understood  that  we  were  going  to  come 

23  down  here  for  two  or  three  days  this  week.   I  had  no  idea 

24  that  we  were  going  to  again  be  coming  back, /perhaps  next 

25  week. 


IINfi^l^lRFD 


1415 


s 


417 

1  MimiMAN:      Not   n«xt  w««k.      N«xt  wa«k  h«'» 

2  going  to  b«  away. 

3  MR.  BECKLER:   Excus*  m«,  th«  w««]c  aftar  naxt. 

4  And  I  cannot  say  with  any  cartainty  that  w«  would  b« 

5  appearing  tha  weak  aftar  naxt. 

6  MR.  LIMAN:   Tha  problam  is  that  sinca  you  have 

7  said  that  you  want  him  to  hava  an  opportunity  to  raviaw 

8  his  docunants  bafora  ha  conplatas  his  tastioony  Z  don't 

9  sea  how  that's  going  to  b«  dona  unless  he  comes  back  tha 

10  following  week. 

11  MR.  BECKLER:   Z  have  said  that  there  is  a 

12  fundamental  unfairness  at  work  here,  and  that  is  that 

13  back  in  December  1986  and  into  January  of  1987  we  made  a 

14  request  for  such  files  as  the  09:30  file.   We  were  denied 

15  that  request.   We  are  now  at  the  eleventh  hour.   The 

16  eleventh  hour  is  now.   The  eleventh  hour,  as  far  as  I'm 

17  concerned,  is  the  week  after  next  because  this  part  of 

18  the  litigation  —  in  other  words,  the  House  and  Senate 

19  side  of  this  case  —  literally  has  hundreds  of  —  at 

20  least  50  people  out  here  in  a  room.   Z  don't  know  what 

21  they  have  been  doing  for  six  months,  but  we  have  not  yet 

22  had  access  to  these  documents. 

23  So  the  question,  Mr.  Liman,  is  not  just  the 

24  fact  that  give  us  this  and  we  can  read  them  next  week 

25  before  you  come  back  in.   Zt  involves  a  lot  mo^e  than 


JMILftSfllFIFn 


1416 


mmm 


413 


1  that,  and  that's  all  I  hav«  to  say. 

2  MR.  LIMAN:   Mr.  Backlar,  som*  mora  objactiva 

3  obsarvar  at   this  scans  than  I  am  might  commint  that 

4  bacausa  ot   tha  avants  in  Kovambar  your  cliant  took  a 

5  position  that  was  advarsarial  to  tha  govarnmant  and  not 

6  cooparativa  with  it,  that  if  you  had  complaints  about  tha 

7  fact  that  you  didn't  hava  accass  to  information,  tha 

8  Exacutiva  Branch  in  which  ha  was  amployad  had  complaints 

9  that  it  did  not  hava  accass  to  Admiral  Poindaxtar. 

10  And  tha  Towar  Raport  indaad  said  that,  that  it 

11  could  not  talk  to  him.   Now  i  don't  want  to  gat  in  tha 

12  middla  of  that  othar  than  to  say  that  ona  of  tha  issues 

13  in  tha  haarings  is  whathar  Congrass  was  traatad  as  a  co- 

14  aqual  branch.   Tha  ona  thing  that  wa  ara  not  praparad  to 

15  surrandar  in  thasa  haarings  is  our  right  to  ba  treated  as 

16  a  co-«qual  branch. 

17  Tha  Independent  Counsel  does  not  dictate  to  us 

18  on  what  documents  we  have  access  to.  The  President 

19  waived  executive  privilege.   We  were  confronted  with 

20  limitations  in  terms  of  tha  compartments  to  which  we  were 

21  admitted,  and  they  related  to  our  mandate.   We  did  not 

22  tall  tha  Zndapandant  Counsel  not  to  giva  your  cliant 

23  accass.  The  decision  whathar  to  giva  hia  accass  belonged 

24  to' tha  White  House. 

25  I  favored  giving  him  access  to  thesa  documents 


1417 


UNCLASSIFIED 


419 


1  that  w«  hav«  now  so  that  his  testimony  can  b«  as  accurate 

2  as  possibl*.   I  r«ally  b«li«v«  that  in  th«  light  of  th« 

3  observations  you  hav«  mad*  today  that  your  cliant's 

4  int«r««t  is  going  to  b«  to  l«t  n«  proc««d  with  som« 

5  things  which  h«  may  or  nay  not  r«in«nb«r  or  w«  can  just 

<  tsminat*  th«  •xamination  now,  1st  hia  havs  accass  to  the 

7  documsnts,  and  resuns  for  a  day  —  it  shouldn't  b«  mora 

8  than  that  --  whan  ha  returns  from  vacation  and  wrap  it 

9  up. 

10  And  I'll  give  you  the  option.   It  is  of  no 

11  great  benefit  to  me  to  have  to  sit  here  while  he  reads 

12  through  documents  that  he  hasn't  seen  for  nine  months  and 

13  wants  to  be  sure  that  he  has  digested  them  all  so  that  he 

14  doesn't  make  a  misstatement  in  answering  about  them.   So 

15  I  give  you  that  choice. 

16  MR.  BECKLER:   Mr.  Liman,  I  hope  you  don't 

17  confuse  what  I'm  saying  with  a  suggestion  that  you 

18  personally,  Arthur  Liman,  are  being  unfair.   I'm  not 

19  saying  that.  What  I'm  saying  is  that  unfortunately  you 

20  are  a  victim  of  the  situation  like  the  rest  of  us  in 

21  that,  whether  you  like  it  or  not,  the  way  in  which  this 

22  immunity  was  constructed  the  timing  —  that  is,  the 

23  manner  in  which  he  would  be  examined  Admiral  Poindexter, 

24  the" manner  in  which  he  would  be  given  access, to 

25  documents,  the  manner  in  which  the  testimony  would  turn 


iiN^AMiFn 


1418 


UNi^WIED 


420 


1  from  privat*  to  public  --  has  all  in  son*  way  or  another 

2  b««n  coordinated  with  th«  Ind«p«nd«nt  Counsel. 

3  And  it  is  because  of  those  strictures  that 

4  certain  rules  have  come  into  play  here,  certain  rules  as 

5  to  access,  certain  rules  as  to  who  can  see  what  and  who 

6  can't  see  what.  All  of  that  has  pemeated  your 

7  proceeding.   I  am  not  suggesting  that  you  are  unfair. 

8  What  X  an  suggesting  --  not  suggesting.   What  Z  aa 

9  stating  is  that  th^  long  hand  of  the  Independent  Counsel 

10  has  woven  itself  into  this  proceeding  to  a  point  where  I 

11  can  see  definite  prejudice  arising,  not  the  least  of 

12  which  is  this  9:30  file  that  we  asked  for  four  months 

13  ago. 

14  MR.  LIMAN:   Well,  the  Independent  Counsel  did 

15  not  tell  us  not  to  give  him  access  to  his  papers. 

16  Whatever  he  said  to  the  White  House,  he  never  said  it  to 

17  us  and  I  think  that  maybe  you  want  to  counsel  with  your 

18  client  for  a  few  ninutes  more  and  tell  us  whether  or  not 

19  you  want  to  proceed  today  or  whether  you  want  to  resume 

20  after  he's  looked  at  his  documents. 

21  MR.  BECXLER:   We  shall  confer  and  we  will  come 

22  back  in. 

23  (A  brief  recess  was  taken.) 

24  "       MR.  LIMAN:   What's  your  preference,  Mr. 

25  Beckler? 


ilNBf&fiRiFirn 


1419 


mmm\[ 


421 


MR. .BECKLER:   As  I  hav«  stated  bsfors,  w«  have 
rsal  problsras  with  ths  control  mschanism  that  th« 
Indapsndsnt  Counsel  has  axacutad  ovar  this  whol* 
procaading,  highlighted  onca  again  by  tha  absanca  of  us 
getting  the  complete  9:30  file,  and  we're  not  going  to 

6  proceed  any  further  at  this  time. 

7  MR.  LIMAN:   Okay.   Then  I  will  ask  you  to 

8  return.   If  you  need  a  subpoena,  we'll  give  you  one,  but 

9  when  Admiral  Poindextar  returns  from  his  vacation  we'll 

10  set  the  date,  which  would  cro>Daoly  be  Tuesday  of  that 

11  week,  and  I  would  like  you  co  make  arrangements  to  come 

12  over  as  soon  as  possible  and  we'll  do  a  complete  pull. 

13  I  have  to  tell  you  on  the  9:30  file  what  we 

14  have  are  the  redacted  excerpts  that  relate  to  our  matter. 

15  I  will  ask  the  White  House  counsel  to  let  the  Admiral  see 

16  his  whole  9:30  file  because  it  seems  to  me  that  it's 

17  important  that  he  be  able  to  give  his  testimony  in 

18  context  and  even  if  we're  not  admitted  to  a  particular 

19  compartment  if  something  there  would  refresh  his 

20  recollection  he  ought  to  see  it. 

21  I  don't  know  whether  I'll  be  successful,  Mr. 

22  Beckler,  but  if  you  call  the  White  House  as  well  maybe  if 
2  3       they  hear  from  both  of  us  that  he  is  on  the  verge  of 

2  4       testifying  that  they  will  give  hin  access  to  phat  whole 
25       file. 


UNWSIFIEB 


1420 


UNCWHED 


422 


MR.  BECKLER:   All  right.   L«t  m«  just  stat« 
also  that  I  mad«  no  commitments  that  w«  will  raturn  aftar 
naxt  waak.   I  don't  want  thara  to  ba  any  oisapprahansions 
on  that  fact.   Tha  9:30  fila  is  amblamatlc  of  a  larga 
problem. 

And  Z  should  also  stata  that  wa  hava 
corraspondanca  in  our  filaa  —  Z  don't  hava  tham  with  ma 

8  right  now  --  whara  tha  Zndapendant  Counsel  has 

9  affirmatively  instructed  the  white  House  not  to  provide 

10  that  kind  of  infonnation  to  us.   Z  was  reminded  of  that 

11  at  our  break,  but  Z  just  wanted  to  point  that  out  to  you. 

12  MS.  LZMAN:   Mr.  Beckler,  we  expect  him  back, 

13  and  the  last  thing  in  the  world  that  Z  think  this  country 

14  needs  is  a  contempt  proceeding  against  a  former  National 

15  Security  Advisor.   Z  think  that  the  Admiral  knows  that  we 

16  have  tried  to  be  cooperative  with  him  and  we  intend  to 

17  continue  to  be  cooperative  so  that  ha  has  as  much 

13       documentation  as  we  can  give  him  to  enable  him  to  give 

19  testimony. 

20  Now  he's  not  a  file  clerk  and  Z  don't  intend 

21  to  have  an  examination  about,  you  know,  this  document  or 

22  that  document,  which  is  the  stuff  which  you  do  with  files 

23  clerks.   Z  mean,  there  are  some  documents  that  are 

24  important.   There  are  a  lot  of  other  documents^ which  we 

25  have  just  showed  to  see  whether  or  not  they  trigger  a 


nMPjpA£<i^jnf:n 


1421 


UNCUSSIHED 

1  r«coll«ction,  but  h«  will  hav«  available  thos«  fil«s  that 

2  w«  hav.  that  w«r«  docum.nts  to  or  from  him,  and  I  hop«  he 

3  will  hav«  what«v«r  h«  n««ds  in  his  5:30  fil«  and  whatever 

4  h«  n««d9  in  looking  ov«r  hii  phon«  logs  or  appointm«nt 

5  logs  so  that  to  ths  sxttnt  that  particular  time  periods 

6  ar«  important  thsy  ars  available  to  him. 

7  MR.  BECKLER:   W«ll,  Mr.  Liman,  as  I  said 

8  bsfors,  I  hav«  no  problem  with  your  cooperation. 

9  Unfortunately,  that's  not  the  problem. 

10  MR.  LIMAN:   But  I  think  that  it's  critical 

11  that  he  come  back. 

12  MR.  BECKLER:   We  will  take  that  under 

13  advisement.   Thank  you. 

1*  (Whereupon,  at  12:14  p.m.,  the  taking  of  the 

15  instant  deposition  recessed,  to  reconvene  at  a  future 

16  date.) 
17 


18  Signature  of  the  witness 

19  Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  day  of 

20  ,  1987. 

21 


22  Notary  Public 

23  My  Commission  Expires:  


UNeUSSIFIEfl 


1422 


UNCIASSIFIED 


CiaTI-ICATi  0;  REPCRTiR 


-3r«j3inj  itpasiilsa  vai  ca'rcan,  do  h«r«3/  ctrti:/  ;hai  ;n«  v.;:i«$j 

whos«  c«s:iaony  appears  ia  eha  fortjotnj  dt?o»itisn  was  ialy  svorn 

by ;  thac  eh«  c«sclaony  of  said  ul:nts$  vaj 

caican  by  at  co  ch«  b«tc  of  ay  ablllcy  and  chirtafctr  rtducad  C3  :ypev: 
undtr  ay  diraccion;  chac  said  dtposielon  is  a  crua  racord  of  the  tas:: 
givan  by  said  wlcaass;  chac  I  aa  ncieher  counsal  for.  rtlacad  co,  nor 
eaployed  by  any  of  cha  parcits  :o  tht  action  in  which  this  dapoiicion 
was  ca'ican,  and  further  that  I  aa  not  a  relative  or  eaployee  of  any 
attorney  or  counsel  eaployed  by  the  parties  thereto,  no;  financiall;/' 
or  otherwise  interested  in  the  outcooe  of  the  action. 


nlkhol  Qinru 


NOTARY  P'.'SLIC 


^!y  Coaaission  expires:  o*j  ^^/  "  0 


82-726    1422 


1423 


DEPOSITION  OF 
JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER 


^<:, 

•'k';. 


^\^ 


vv3^^ 


■'ii.. 


Select  Coininittee   to   Investigate 

Covert  Arms  Transactions  with 

Iran, 

U.S.  House  of  Representatives, 

Washington,  D.C. 

Thursday,  July  2,  1987 


4i 


The  deposition  reconvened  at  12:45  p.m.  in  Room  901, 
Hart  Building,  subject  to  a  change  in  reporters. 

Present:   Arthur  L.  Liman,  Chief  Counsel;  James  E.  Kaplan, 
Associate  Counsel,  United  States  Senate  Select  Committee  on 
Secret  Military  Assistance  to  Iran  and  the  Nicaraguan 
Opposition;  W.  Neil  Eggleston,  Deputy  Chief  Counsel;  and 
Richard  J.  Leon,  Deputy  Chief  Minority  Counsel,  House  Select 
Committee  to  Investigate  Covert  Arms  Transactions  with  Iran. 

Also  Present:   Joseph  T.  Small  Jr.  and  Richard  W.  Beckler, 
Fulbright  &  Jaworski,  attorneys  at  law.  y^    O 


1424 


ffle^ffir 


12:45    pm^ 

2 

'  3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 


Whereupon, 

JOHN  M.  POINDEXTER 
having  been  previously  duly  sworn,  was  recalled  as  a  witness 
herein,  and  was  further  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    I  have  a  question  pending. 

The  question  pending  is,  did  you  ever  withhold  any 
documents  from  Admiral  Holloway  when  you  were  his 
Executive  Assistant  in  order  to  give  him  deniability? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Objection. 

Do  not  answer  that  question. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Did  you  ever  instruct  any  of  your  subordinates  at 
the  National  Security  Council  to  withhold  information  from  you 
in  order  to  give  you  deniability? 

MR.  BECKLER:   You  can  answer  that. 

THE  WITNESS:   No,  I  did  not.   Not  to  my  knowledge. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    The  records  that  we  have  seen.  Admiral  Poindexter, 
show  that  Ghorbanifar  met  with  North  in  Washington,  D.C. 
on  April  3  and  April  4,  1986,  to  discuss  arrangements  for 
delivery  of  Hawk  parts  and  hostages  and  the  upcoming  meeting. 
That  is  in  the  Tower  Report,  as  well. 

Do  you  have  any  recollection  as  you  sit  here  today 
as  to  whether  you  briefed  the  President  of  the  United  States 


vmtmL 


1425 


on  the  meetings  that  North  was  having  with  Ghorbanifar? 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  have  a  continuing  objection. 

Let's  put  it  on  the  record  at  this  time.   I  don't 
think  the  reporter  was  here  before. 

Approximately  two  weeks  ago  we  had  a  discussion, 
which  went  on  the  record  at  the  time  of  the  deposition  in 
which  we  stated  our  position  that  we  have  been  requesting 
since  December  of  1986  the  0930  file  and  we  finally  found 
out  late  yesterday  we  could  have  some  access  to  it  today, 
which  is  unfortunately  --  without  access  to  that  file  we  are 
not  prepared  to  answer  questions  about  discussions  with  the 
President. 

Furthermore,  I  must  say  that  this  is  not  necessarily 
the  fault  of  the  Senate  Investigating  Committee  or  the 
House  Investigating  Committee,  but  rather  it  is  yet  another 
indication  of  the  Independent  Counsel's  attempt  to,  one, 
give  us  immunity;  two,  try  in  every  way  he  can  to  prosecute 
us  both  for  perjury  as  well  as  substantive  offenses  by 
withholding  our  access  to  documents  which  parties  to 
litigation  have,  namely,  the  Senate  has  access  to. 

There  has  been  a  chain  of  events  that  have  made  it 
almost  impossible  for  Admiral  Poindexter  to  adequately  answer 
any  kinds  of  questions  having  to  do  with  documents,  access  to 
it,  when  and  how  he  should  get  them,  the  fact  that  we  have 
looked  at  documents  and  we  get  them  back  and  they  come  back 

lUlfUCClClUL- 


1426 


25 


iHffinsaHEffT 


to  us  from  the  Senate  and  they  are  re_^shuf f led.   There  are 
all  kinds  of  problems. 

We  have  been  down  here  for  15  hours.   We  have 
testified  on  the  reraard. 

Many  of  these  events  that  you  are  talking  about 
relate  to  events  that  have  been  testified  to  before. 

MR.  LIMAN:   There  has  been  no  testimony  about 
whether  he  kept  the  President  informed  about  Colonel  North's 
negotiations  with  Ghorbanifar. 

Did  you? 

MR.  BECKLER:   We  are  not  going  to  answer  questions 
about  conversations  with  the  President.   We  have  already 
said  that. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Do  you  have  any  recollection  on  this  subject? 

Bearing  in  mind  that  your  recollection  may  be 
refreshed  if  you  see  a  09  30  file,  do  you  have  any 
recollection? 

A    Recollection  of  what? 

Q    Of  keeping  the  President  informed  about  North's 
negotiations  with  Ghorbanifar. 

MR.  BECKLER:   You  can  say  you  have  a  recollection. 
You  do  have  a  recollection.   You  can  say  that. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  have  a  recollection. 


UNCUSMIED 


1427 


wmmF 


BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    And  can  you  tell  me  generally  whether  you  did  keep 
the  President  informed  of  North's  negotiations  with 
Ghorbanif ar? 

MR.  BECKLER:   At  what  period  of  time? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Let's  take  the  period  in  the  month  or 
two  leading  up  to  the  Tehran  mission. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  confer.   Let's  go  outside  here. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Is  there  an  answer  to  the  question? 

MR.  BECKLER:   No. 

MR.  LIMAN:   You  are  not  letting  him  answer? 

MR.  BECKLER:   That  is  correct. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Admiral  Poindexter,  what  is  it  you  believe  is  in 
your  930  files  other  than  notes? 

MR.  BECKLER:   We  are  not  going  — 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    What  do  930  files  contain  other  than  your  notes? 
A    They  contain  agendas  of  the  items  I  discussed  with 
the  President. 

Q    The  handwritten  notes? 

A  "  The  handwritten  notes.  , 

MR.  LIMAN;   Mr.  Beckler,  the  documents  which  we 


iMi&sfunFn 


1428 


made  available  to  you  according  to  the  NSC  contain  all  of  the 
references  in  his  notes  to  Iran  or  the  contras.   The 
reason  that  we  don't  have  the  entire  930  file  is  because 
they  gave  us  only  those  portions  which  pertain  to  this. 

I  don't  see  what  basis  there  is  for  his  refusing 
to  give  his  recollection  today  3s  to  whether  he  kept  the 
President  informed  of  discussions  with  Ghorbanifar.   He  says 
he  has  some  recollection,  he  hasn't  said  there  is  any 
document  that  would  refresh  him  on  that,  and  whatever  he 
says  on  this  is  subject  to  amplification  or,  as  far  as  I 
am  concerned,  correction  if  there  is  some  document  that  would 
lead  to  that  result. 

We  are  not  trying  —  I  will  make  this  clear, 
because  you  are  concerned  the  Independent  Counsel  will  get 
this  transcript  and  if  he  makes  a  mistake  will  say,  I  am 
going  to  prosecute  him. 

I  am  asking  him  for  recollection  of  what  he  told 
the  President  on  this  subject.   He  has  an  obligation  to  give 
his  honest  recollection  of  that  subject.   That  is  all. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  appreciate  what  you  are  saying, 
Arthur. 

Let's  roll  the  clock  back  to  December  of  1986.  We 
made  a  request  not  for  a  lot  of  documents,  but  some  relevant 
documents.  We  are  told  by  the  White  House  —  you  'w/juld  hope 
you  could  rely  on  the  White  House  counsel.   Peter  Wallison 

___   iikinuociCIEn 


I 


1429 


DrBBISSIFIBF* 


writes  us  back  saying  documents  are  in  the  mail,  coming 
to  you.   We  don't  get  them.   Along  comes  Arthur  Liman, 
John  Nields,  and  their  investigative  committee  in  their 
efforts  to  make  the  public  aware  of  the  facts,  and  we  are 
told  by  you,  Arthur  Liman,  that  we  will  get  the  documents,  not 
initially,  because  you  want  to,  quote,  "test  his  credibility/'i,y 
test  Admiral  Poindexter's  credibility,  you  want  to  do  it  over 
the  course  of  a  whole  weekend. 

We  said,  okay,  fine,  you  can  test  his  credibility. 
That  was  May  1  and  May  2.   As  it  turned  out,  we  only  used 
Saturday,  May  2.   We  had  blocked  out  the  weekend  for  that. 
After  testing  the  credibility,  which  I  view  as  just  that, 
testing  someone's  credibility,  which  means  is  he  telling  the 
truth  or  is  he  not  telling  the  truth,  we  renew  our  request 
for  documents,  and  we  don't  see  any  documents. 

We  don't  see  any  documents  until  two  days  ago 
basically,  some  almost  two  months  later.   When  do  we  see 
them? 

Just  when  we  are  coming  back  down  here.  Now,  that 
is  what  I  am  talking  about. 

Now,  I  understand  that  that  is  not  your  fault, 
per  se.   Because  the  reason  for  that  is  because  the  White 
House  won't  make  the  move  without  the  Independent  Counsel 
telling  the  White  House  what  it  can  or  cannot  do.'  ^ 

As  I  said  on  the  record,  two  weeks  ago  the 


iiMPi  Acoincn 


1430 


Independent  Counsel  told  the  White  House  if  they  cooperate 
with  anybody,  they  are  going  to  be  charged  with  obstruction. 
So  the  problem  is  the  Independent  Counsel.   And  the  reason 
why,  it  is  not  only  the  docuinents,  it  is  the  transcripts, 
as  well. 

May  2,  when  do  we  get  to  look  at  the  transcript? 
The  day  before  his  testimony,  two  months  later. 

Why?   Because  there  is  an  agreement  with  the 
Independent  Counsel  that  the  stenographer's  notes  will  not 
be  transcribed  until  "X"  date  and  so  forth  and  so  on. 

There  is  an  agreement  with  the  Independent  Counsel 
as  to  when  those  transcripts  will  be  allowed  to  leave  this 
room  and  this  premises.   It  is  ludicrous  to  say  that  a 
transcript  such  as  this  of  a  deposition,  which  I  presume 
if  in  good  faith  you  are  preparing  for  your  public 
testimony,  that  this  transcript,  and  I  refer  now  to  the 
transcript  of  Saturday,  May  2,  1987,  99  percent  of  this 
will  become  public  whenever  Admiral  Poindexter  testifies, 
but  yet  this  transcript  is  not  allowed  to  be  in  our 
possession  outside  of  certain  hours  on  certain  days  and  at 
certain  times,  all  because  of  agreements  with  the  Independent 
Counsel. 

MR.  LIMAN:   No,  sir.   The  reason  you  can't  have 
the  transcript  is  because  it  is  top  secret.   We  a^e  not 
going  to  release  this  transcript. 


\m\  mmw 


1431 


If  we  do,  it  would  have  to  be  declassified. 
In  general,  we  have  not  when  a  witness  has  testified  in 
public  session  also   produced  his  transcript. 

MR.  BECKLER:   We  are  not  asking  to  have  the 
public. 

MR.  LIMAN:   That  is  the  problem  inherent  in  this 
situation.   If  there  was  a  document,  Mr.  Beckler,  that  I  could 
show  him  from  the  excerpts  of  the  briefing  notes  that  would 
refresh  his  recollection  on  Ghorbanifar  in  April  or  May,  I 
would  give  it  to  him. 

I  don't  have  that.   He  has  had  the  Tower  Report, 
he  has  had  additional  documents.   He  has  a  recollection. 
Whatever  that  recollection  is,  I  am  entitled   to  it. 

He  is  also  entitled  to  say  that  this  is  my  best 
recollection  now  and  it  could  be  refreshed  by  more  if  it 
exists. 

You  have  taken  a  position,  I  am  not  going  to 
spend  the  rest  of  the  day  debating  with  you.   Either  you  let 
him  answer  the  question  or  it  will  be  held  until  the  public 
hearings. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  hold  it  till  the  public 
hearings. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Let's  go  on. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN;  ; 

Q    Let's  go  to  November  25,  1986.   On  November  26,  1986, 

.  ■  imm  nocicicn 


1432 


mms 


10 


which  is  the  day  that  North  is  — 

MR.  BECKLER:   November  26? 

MR.  LIMAN:   November  25,  1986,  which  is  the  day  that 
you  resigned  your  position  and  Colonel  North  was  fired. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  about  a 
conversation  or  proposed  conversation  between  the  Vice 
President  and  Peres  of  Israel? 

A    I  am  not  certain. 

Q    Did  you  ever  have  any  discussion  — 

A    May  have.   I  just  have  no  recollection. 

Q  Did  you  ever  have  any  discussion  with  the  Vice 
President  about  trying  to  persuade  Israel  to  acknowledge 
responsibility  for  the  diversion  of  funds? 

A    Did  I  ever  have  any  conversation  with  anybody? 

Q    With  the  Vice  President? 

A    With  the  Vice  President? 
I  don't  believe  so. 

Q    With  anyone? 

A    I  don't  think  so. 

Q    I  said  with  anyone.   I  want  to  make  sure  you  heard 
that. 

A    I  don't  think  so. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Subject  to  refreshing  your 
recollection.   If  you  got  documents  there  that  catalogue  the 


iii\!EAQQiriPn 


1433 


UDSwr 


11 


conversation,  we  will  be  happy  to  talk  about  it. 

THE  WITNESS:   Would  you  rephrase  the  last  question, 
please? 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  anyone  in 
November  of  1986  about  inducing  Israel  to  accept  responsibility 
for  the  diversion  of  proceeds  from  the  Iranian  arms  sales 
to  support  the  contras? 

A    I  don't  recall  any  conversation  like  that. 
MR.  BECKLER:   On  that  date? 
THE  WITNESS:   On  that  date. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q     Or  in  November  of  1986? 

A    Nor  in  November  of  1986. 

Q    Do  you  recall  any  conversation  as  to  whether 
Israel  was  aware  of  the  diversion? 

A    Yes. 

Q    With  whom  did  you  have  that  conversation? 

A    I  had  a  conversation  with  Colonel  North  at 
some  point,  the  latter  part  of  November,  as  to  whether 
Nir  was  aware  — 

Q    Aware  of  the  diversion? 

A    —  of  the  diversion. 

Q    Was  this  before  or  after  the  Attorney  General  had 
spoken  to  North? 


wmmE 


1434 


URTOfflr" 


12 


A    I  think  it  was  after.   It  was  probably  on  Monday. 

Q    Monday  would  have  been  the  24th? 

A    Probably.. 

Q    What  do  you  recall  of  that  conversation,  Admiral? 

A    I  simply  recall  telling  Colonel  North  that  he 
needed  to  be  sure  that  -the  Israelis  were  not  surprised,  or 
words  to  that  effect. 

Q  Do  I  understand  that  what  you  were  conveying  to  him 
was  that  he  should  advise  the  Israelis  that  this  was  going  to 
come  out? 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    You  indicated  before  that  you  wanted  accurate, 
factual  chronologies.   Do  you  recall  that? 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    And  that  the  one  thing  that  was  not  to  be  in  the 
chronologies  was  the  diversion? 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    Did  you  tell  that  to  Oliver  North? 

A    I  believe  I  did.   Certainly  that  was  my  intent. 
I  think  I  communicated  it  to  him. 

It  is  important,  I  think,  in  terms  of  the 
circumstances  that  existed  in  November  that  —  the  thing 
that  hacf  leaped  out  was  the  Iranian  project,  so  all  of  the 
focus  of  the  chronology  and  a  narrative  of  the  affadr  was 
oriented  towards  Iran,  not  towards  the  contras,  which  I  always 


1435 


dNCUBSIflHr 


13 


considered  a  separate  issue. 

Q    You  considered  a  separate  issue  as  to  how  the  money 
that  was  generated  by  the  arms  sales  was  spent? 
A    That  is  correct. 

MR.  LEON:   Let  me  ask  one  question  on  that  point. 
Arthur  questioned  you  about  before  about  Ollie's  discussions 
with  you  with  regard  to  Nir  — 

THE  WITNESS:   It  was  really  my  discussion  — 
BY  MR.  LEON: 
Q    Excuse  me.   Had  he  at  any  time  on  that  day, 
prior  to  that  day,  said  to  you  in  any  way,  shape  or  form 
that  it  was  Nir's  idea  or  Israel's  idea  to  divert  the  funds? 
A    I  don't  recall  that. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Do  you  recall  that  you  testified  at  your  first 
session  that  North  told  you  some  time  in  February,  and  you 
weren't  precise  on  the  date,  that  he  had  figured  out  a  way 
of  getting  some  money  to  the  contras  from  the  arms  sales? 

A    I  can't  remember  his  exact  words,  but  that  was  my 

memory. 

Q    As  you  sit  here  today,  is  it  your  best  recollection 
that  this  was  something  that  North  came  up  with  and  was 
presented  to  you? 

A    I  don't  think  I  would  say  that  it  was  something 
he  came  up  with.   From  my  recollection  of  our  conversation  en 

„  iiMriAccinciL 


1436 


14 


that,  it  wasn't  at  all  clear  to  me  who  came  up  with  the  idea. 

Q    Did  you  ask  him? 

A     I  don't  recall  asking  him  that. 

Q    Did  he  ever  mention  whether  it  was  Secord? 

A    I  just  don't  know  that. 

Q    Ghorbanifar? 

A    I  am  sorry,  I  don't  recall. 

Q    Nir? 

A    He  was  just  -- 

MR.  BECKLER:   You  have  answered  the  question. 
MR.  LIMAN:   I  will  mark  as  the  next  exhibit  two 
notes  from  Admiral  Poindexter,  one  dated  April  16,  1986,  the 
other  dated  April  22,  1986.   The  first  is  to  Oliver  North, 
the  second  is  to  McFarlane. 

(Exhibits  41  and  42  were  marked  for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    Admiral,  if  you  look  at  41,  this  is  a  PROF  note 
that  is  from  you  to  Oliver  North,  and  it  states,  among 
other  things,  that  "there  are  not  to  be  any  parts  delivered 
until  all  the  hostages  are  free  in  accordance  with  the  plan 
that  you  laid  out  for  me  before." 

It  goes  on  to  say,  "Also,  you  may  tell  them  that 
the  President  is  getting  very  annoyed  at  their  continual 
stalling."  ,  » 

Now,  first,  do  you  recall  telling  Colonel  North 


UMOiifiMIED. 


1437 


15 


at  or  about  this  date  that  the  hostages  had  to  be  freed 
before  there  would  be  any  parts  delivered? 

A    Yes,  I  recall  that. 

Q    And  was  it  a  fact  also  that  the  President  was 
becoming  annoyed  at  the  stalling? 

A    To  the  best  of  my  knowledge. 

Q    And  the  memorandum,  rather,  the  PROF  note, 
Admiral,  from  you.  Admiral  Poindexter,  to  Mr.  McFarlane 
dated  April  22,  1986  also  has  a  reference  to  the  fact  that  the 
sequence  has  to  be  meeting,  release  of  hostages,  delivery  of 
Hawk  parts,  the  President  is  getting  quite  discouraged  by 
this  effort. 

Is  that  an  accurate  reflection  of  the  President's 
attitude  at  that  time? 

A    In  my  opinion. 

Q    Was  that  based  upon  your  conversations  with  the 
President? 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    I  neglected  to  ask  you  when  I  was  asking  you  about 
the  conversations  on  the  diversion  in  November,  do  you 
recall  whether  prior  to  Colonel  North's  meeting  with  the 
Attorney  General,  did  he  ever  ask  you  point  blank  whether  you 
had  discussed  the  diversion  with  the  President  of  the 
United  States?  .'  , 

A    I  don't  remember  that. 


iiMPi  ACQinrn 


1438 


16 


Q    Were  you  aware  that  North  was  going  to  be  meeting 
with  the  President  of  the  United  States  on  that  Sunday, 
November  23,  with  the  Attorney  General  on  November  23? 

A    I  don't  believe  I  was  aware  of  that. 

Q    And  you  testified  that  after  the  meeting  he  called 
you. 

A    That  is  right. 

Q    And  he  told  you  at  that  time  that  the  diversion  had 
come  up,  correct? 

A    Yes. 

Q    He  also  met  with  you  the  following  morning  on  this 
subject? 

A    I  believe  he  did,  or  we  may  have  talked  by 
telephone,  I  am  not  sure. 

Q    Either  in  that  telephone  conversation  on  Sunday 
or  in  the  meeting  on  Monday,  did  he  ask  you  whether  the 
President  of  the  United  States  was  aware? 

A    I  cun  almost  certain  that  he  didn't  in  the 
telephone  call.   And  I  don't  remember  in  the  meeting  on 
Monday,  it  is  possible,  but  I  don't  remember  that. 

Q    Did  you  ask  him  whether  the  Attorney  General  had 
asked  him  about  the  President's  knowledge? 

A    I  simply  don't  remember  that.   My  recollection  of 
that  is  not  very  clear. 

Q    When  is  the  first  time  that  you  recall  Oliver  North 


iiMPi  Accirim 


1439 


tiirafiar' 


17 


asking  you  whether  the  President  was  aware  of  the  diversion? 

A     Say  that  again. 

Q    When  is  the  first  time,  if  any,  that  you  recall 
Oliver  North  asking  you  about  whether  the  President  was 
aware  of  the  diversion? 

A    I  don't  recall  his  askinc,  me  that. 

Q    Do  you  recall  ever  telling  him  that? 

A    No,  I  don't  recall  that, 

Q    Now,  there  came  a  time  when  the  Attorney  General 
asked  you  about  your  knowledge  of  the  diversion,  am  I 
correct? 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    And  that  was  on  the  Monday? 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    Did  you  tell  that  Attorney  General  that  you  had 
approved  the  diversion? 

A    My  recollection  is  that  I  told  the  Attorney 
General  that  I  had  a  general  knowledge  of  the  diversion. 

Q    Why  didn't  you  tell  him  you  had  approved  it? 

A    I  don't  know.   Instinct  thought  it  was  better  not 
to  at  the  time,  I  think. 

Q    Instinct  for  what? 

A    I  just  wasn't  sure  what  was  going  to  happen  at  that 
point,  and  just  decided  to  say  it  that  way,  which  ;was  true. 

Q    When  you  say  what  was  going  to  happen,  what  do  you 

llMM^FIFn 


1440 


18 


UNCLASSIFIED 


1  mean  by  that? 

2  A    Well,  it  wasn't  at  all  clear.   I  offered  to  resign, 
t3  and  it  wasn't  clear  whether  I  would  or  wouldn't  at  that  point, 

4  and  I  just  decided  to  be  cautious. 

5  Q    Was  the  Attorney  General  upset  about  the 
g  diversion  when  he  talked  to  you? 

1  A    No,  he  was  not. 

g        Q    Did  he  suggest  to  you  in  any  way  that  this  might 

g  lead  to  an  independent  counsel  or  criminal  prosecution? 
1Q        A    No,  he  did  not. 

11  Q    He  didn't  give  you  warnings,  I  take  it? 

12  A    No.   It  was  a  very  informal  chat  in  my  office  that 

13  lasted  a  very  short  period  of  time. 

14  Q    Was  Don  Regan  with  him  when  he  was  asking  you  these 

15  questions? 

1g        A    No,  he  wasn't.   It  was  just  Ed  Meese  and  me. 
iy        Q    Did  the  Attorney  General  ask  you  whether  the 


18 


President  knew? 


1Q        A    I  don't  recall  he  asked  me  that  question. 

2Q        Q    Did  you  have  your  meeting  with  Don  Regan  —  was 

21  it  afterwards? 

22  A    No.   Well,  it  was  afterwards,  yes,  the  following 

23  <3*y- 

2^  MR.  BECKLER:   This  would  have  been  on  what  day  now? 

25 


KraFinr 


I 


1441 


fflffiBBSfflffl* 


19 


BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    What  did  Don  Regan  say  to  you  about  the  diversion 
and  what  did  you  say  to  him? 

A     I  think,  as  I  recall,  I  told  him  the  same  thing 
chat  I  had  told  the  Attorney  General,  that  I  had  general 
knowledge  of  the  diversion  and  that  I  was  going  to  resign. 

Q    Did  Don  Regan  put  the  question  to  you,  "Did  you 
tell  the  President  about  it?" 

A    I  don't  recall  that.   He  may  have.   I  just  don't 
recall  it. 

Q    Did  anyone  say  to  you,  other  than  the  Attorney 
General  and  Don  Regan,  "Admiral  Poindexter,  why  did  you  do  such 
a  stupid  thing  as  Meeting  this  happen?" 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  have  got  to  object  to  that. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    Okay.   Did  anyone  say  to  you.  Admiral  Poindexter  — 
did  either  the  Attorney  General  or  Don  Regan  say  to  you, 
"Why  did  you  let  this  happen?"   Words  or  substance. 

A    That  sort  of  expression  was  never  made. 

Q    Did  they  scold  you  in  any  way? 

A    None  whatsoever. 

Q    There  was  no  sense  of  reprimand? 

A    None . 

MR.  BECKLER:   Off  the  record.  » 

(Off  the  record. ) 


JlNCU.OTJEn 


1442 


UDRW 


20 


1  BY    MR.    LIMAN: 

2  Q     Did  they  compliment  you  for  the  fact  it  was  a  way 
»  3  of  getting  funds  for  the  contras  from  the  Ayatollah? 

4  A    No.   I  don't  recall  that. 

5  Q    Did  they  express  sympathy  for  your  situation? 

6  A    Yes,  they  did. 

7  Q    Who  was  it  that  expressed  sympathy?   The  whole 

8  White  House  group? 

9  A    The  Attorney  General,  Don  Regan,  the  President  and 

10  Vice  President. 

11  MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  clarify  that. 

12  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

13  Q    What  did  the  Vice  President  say? 

14  A    That  may  be  an  unfair  characterization. 
^5        Q    If  we  know  what  he  said  — 

^g        A    I  can't  remember  exactly  what  he  said.   The 

•J7  impression  I  have  at  this  point  was  that  he,  with  the 

18  others,  regretted  that  the  situation  — 
ig  MR.  BECKLER:   What  situation,  that  you  were 

20  resigning? 

21  A    That  I  was  resigning.   That  is  what  I  was  going  to 

22  say. 

23  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Were  you  going  to  say  that  the  situatioh^ really 


24 

25   made  it  necessary 


i)]ii(!rfS!!riFn 


1443 


iMOTr 


21 


A    As  I  have  said  before,  my  whole  rationale  in  telling 
the  Attorney  General  on  Monday  that  I  was  prepared  to  resign 
was  that  I  thought  that  would  give  the  President  more 
latitude  in  how  he  handled  the  case. 

Q    And  the  President,  I  think  you  said,  commented  to 
you  that  the  captain  has  to  take  responsibility? 

A    He  didn't  say  it  quite  that  way.   He  said  it  is 
in  the  tradition  of  the  captain  accepting  responsibility. 

Q    Is  that  the  naval  tradition? 

A    Yes,  it  is. 

Q    And  in  this  case  the  captain  was  the  admiral, 
not  the  commander-in-chief? 

A    That  is  correct. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Remember,  an  admiral  can  be  a  captain, 
the  captain  of  a  ship.   It  is  possible  in  the  sense,  you  know  - 
MR.  LIMAN:   Okay. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    And  the  words  of  the  Attorney  General,  were  they 
to  the  same  effect,  about  being  sorry  that  you  had  to 
resign? 

A    Yes. 

Q    And  Regan? 

A    The  same . 

Q    Do  you  have  any  knowledge  as  to  whether*  bhe 
Vice  President  knevL^ov^bilS^te^t'Wih^ inversion  prior  to  that 


:  niflPi  mtniFit 


1444 


MiHW 


22 


Monday  or  Tuesday? 

A    I  have  no  reason  to  believe  that  he  did. 
Q    Or  his  National  Security  Adviser? 
A    Not  to  my  knowledge. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  just  want  to  clarify  that.   He  is 
not  called  National  Security  Advissr. 

MR.  LIMAN:   He  calls  himself  the  National 

Security  Adviser  to  the  Vice  President,  the  first  one  the^/ 

A 

President  has  ever  had. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q.    At  the  last  session  we  reviewed  minutes  of  the  NSPG 
on  May  16,  1936,  at  which  there  was  a  discussion  of  thirds 
country  funding,  a  suggestion  by  the  Secretary  of  State  that 
that  was  the  only  practical  means  of  getting  bridge  funding 
and  a  conclusion  at  the  meeting  that  a  list  of  potential 
third'^country  donors  would  be  prepared.   Do  you  remember 
that? 

A    I  remember  that. 

Q    Now,  that  meeting  of  the  NSPG  was  on  May  16. 

I  want  to  show  you  a  document  that  has  been  marked 
previously  as  Exhibit  18,  which  was  written  at  419|^,  the  very 
same  day,  by  Oliver  North  to  you. 

MR.  LEON:   Hold  it,  Arthur.   I  think  you  just 
stated  4/19/86,  and  this  document  says  5/16.      .' ^ 

MR.  LIMAN:   5/16. 


ii^M»uccifirn 


1445 


mnmSr 


23 


THE  WITNESS:   Is  this  an  exhibit? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Yes. 

MR.  BECKLER:   This  is  number  18. 

MR.  LIMAN:   I  said  that  it  was  written  at  419,   the 
same  day  I  think.   419  p.m. 

MR.  BECKLER:   160u,  that  is  4:00  p.m. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    What  I  am  going  to  direct  your  attention  to. 
Admiral,  is  Colonel  North's  statement  "you  should  be  aware 
that  the  resistance  support  organization  now  has  more  than 
$6  million  available  for  immediate  disbursement.   This  reduces 
the  need  to  go  to  third  countries  for  help." 

Remember,  we  went  over  this  PROF  note  before. 
A    Yes. 

MR,  BECKLER:   Let's  take  a  look  at  it,  unless 
it  is  going  to  be  just  a  low-ball  question. 

MR.  LIMAN:   It  is  going  to  be  a  very  low-ball 
question. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Did  you  discuss  with  anyone  other  than  Colonel 
North  the  fact  that  the  need  for  bridge  funding  from  third 
countries  was  now  going  to  be  less  than  what  wa.s  discussed 
earlier  in  the  afternoon  at  the  NSPG  meeting? 

A    I  did  not,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge.'  , 
Q    Did  you  report  to  the  President  of  the  money 


1446 


Mi&fsr 


24 


1  that  you  had  been  talking  about  in  bridge  funding  that 

2  Colonel  North  had  indicated  that  six  million  was  already 
t  3  available? 

4  MR.  BECKLER:   Arthur,  I  have  a  continuing 

5  objection  to  his  reports  to  the  President  based  on  my 

6  previous  objection. 

7  I  am  going  to  direct  him  not  to  answer  that. 

8  MR.  LEON:   Mr.  Beckler,  let  me  ask  you  a  question. 

9  Is  it  your  position  that  if  you  get  an  opportunity  that  you 

10  deem  to  be  sufficient  in  terms  of  amount  of  time  to  review 

11  this  0930  file,  that  having  done  that,  let's  say  next  week, 

12  at  the  beginning  of  next  week,  that  having  done  that  you  would 

13  be  willing  and  available  to  answer  questions  like  the  one 

14  Mr.  Liman  just  propounded? 

15  MR.  BECKLER:   The  answer  is  no.   We  are  at  the 

16  11th  hour.   My  client  emd  I  and  my  co-counsel,  Mr.  Small, 

17  are  going  to  be  preparing  extensively  all  next  week  amongst 

18  ourselves. 

•jg  We  also  have  an  obligation,  as  I  am  sure  anyone 

20  would,  to  watch  the  testimony,  if  he  testifies.   I  don't 

21  know  if  he  will  or  not. 

22  The  fact  is  we  have  answered  the  questions  on 

23  conversations  with  the  President.   Our  next  group  of  questions 

24  on  that  will  be  in  public  testimony.  / 

25  MR.  LEON:   Mr.  Beckler,  Colonel  North  doesn't 

IIMAI  AOOIOrF^ 


1447 


25 


take  the  stand  until  Tuesday,  as  of  today's  plan.   And  if 
those  files  that  you  have  been  referring  to  here 
extensively  were  available  to  you  Monday  morning,  let's 
say,  to  review  for  a  number  of  hours,  couldn't  at  that 
point,  having  reviewed  them  and  refreshed  his  recollection 
more  fully,  the  Admiral  be  available  to  answer  those  questions? 

MR.  BECKLER:   No.   That  is  the  whole  point  that  I 
was  saying,  Mr.  Leon,  before.   We  have  been  up  here,  we  have 
testified,  we  have  answered  questions  about  the  Admiral's 
conversations  with  the  President. 

We  made  a  request  a  long  time  ago  for  these  documents 
we  haven't  gotten  them.   Giving  them  to  us  now  makes  no 
difference. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Did  you  give  your  portions  of  the 
930  file  to  the  NSC?   You  had  notes  of  meetings  of  the 
President  we  got  pursuant  to  immunity. 

MR.  SMALL:   We  never  had  —  the  930  file  — 

MR.  LIMAN:   You  may  not  call  those  notes  of  briefings 
with  the  President  which  you  produced  to  us  the  first  day 
pursuant  to  the  immunity  order  part  of  the  930  file,  but 
what  I  have  gotten  from  the  NSC  as  the  portions  of  the  9  30 
file  are  almost  indistinguishable  from  what  you  produced  to 
us. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  am  telling  you  what  we  produced 
to  you  was  not  anything  from  the  0930  file.   When  did  we 

mini  Aooirirn 


1448 


TmtuBSIrlHr 


26 


1  produce  them  to  you? 

2  MR.  LIMAN:   Pursuant  to  an  immunity  order. 
^3               MR.  BECKLER:   When? 

4  May  2.   What  did  we  get  back?   Zero.   Nothing. 

5  MR.  LIMAN:   I  am  going  to  tell  you,  I  think  you 

6  are  probably  going  to  find  on  this  subject  in  the  930  files 

7  very,  very  little,  because  the  930  files  that  we  have  seen  on 

8  just  these  kinds  of  little  notes  do  not  purport  to  be  a  full 

9  account  of  what  happened  at  meetings  with  the  President. 

10  Let  me  ask  you  questions. 

11  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

12  Q    In  the  930  file,  was  there  a  listing  of  all 

13  subjects  discussed  with  the  President? 

14  A    Usually.   Sometimes  I  would  add  things  the  last 

15  minute  which  weren't  on  the  agenda,  but  generally  that  is 

16  true. 

17  Q    And  was  this  true  while  you  were  the  National 

18  Security  Advx3»r? 

19  A    That  is  correct. 

20  Q    So  that  in  your  930  file  you  would  list  what 

21  you  intended  to  discuss  with  the  President  of  the  United 

22  States? 

23  A    That  is  correct. 

24  Q    And  would  that  be  presented  to  him  as  aij  agenda  of 

25  the  meeting? 


UNCUSSm 


1449 


mrsT 


27 


A    No.   I  —  well,  in  effect,  it  was  the  agenda  for 
the  meeting,  but  I  didn't  give  him  a  copy.   I  just  had  it 
in  front  of  me. 

Q    Were  they  typed? 

A    No,  handwritten. 

Q    Just  handwritten  notes? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Were  there  subjects  that  you  discussed  that 
sometimes  were  not  on  those  notes? 

A  That  is  correct.  Sometimes  he  would  ask  me  a 
question  which  I  hadn't  planned  to  discuss,  but  then  we 
would  go  ahead  and  discuss  it? 

Q    Did  you  always  cover  every  subject  that  was  on  those 
little  handwritten  notes? 

A    Not  all  the  time,  no. 

Q    Were  these  notes  that  you  prepared  for  the  930 
file  really  reminders  to  you  of  subjects  that  you  wanted  to 
tcike  up? 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    And  is  it  fair  to  say  that  there  would  be  occasions 
you  wouldn't  cover  all  those  subjects. 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    And  there  would  be  occasions  when  you  would 
cover  subjects  that  weren't  on  there?  » 

A    That  is  correct. 


iiMM  >ooincn 


1450 


wswr' 


28 


Q    How  would  you  know  from  looking  at  your  930 
file  which  subjects  were  covered  and  which  ones  weren't? 
MR.  BECKLER:   You  don't  have  to  answer  that. 
MR.  LIMAN:   Would  you  mark  as  the  next  exhibit  a 
PROF  note  from  the  Admiral  to  Mr.  Fortier.   It  is  dated 
May  2,    1986. 

(Exhibit  43  was  marked  for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    Admiral,  if  you  will  look  at  this  PROF  note,  I 
will  direct  your  attention  to  the  second  paragraph  where  it 
says  "Next,  yesterday  in  a  meeting  that  I  had  with  the 
President,  he  started  the  conversation  with  'I  am  really 
serious.   If  we  can't  move  the  contra  package  before 
June  9,  I  want  to  figure  out  a  way  to  take  action  unilaterally 
to  provide  assistance.'  " 
Do  you  see  that? 

A    Yes,  sir. 

Q    Do  you  remember  that  conversation? 

A    Vaguely. 

Q    If  you  put  it  down  in  this  PROF  note  to  Mr.  Fortier, 
did  it  happen? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Do  you  remember  what  unilateral  action  the 
President  of  the  United  States  was  considering  taking? 

A    I  don't  recall  that  he  specified  any,  but  he  was 

imm  tooicicn 


1451 


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not  willing  to  drop  the  support  of  his  objective  of 
establishing  a  democracy.   That  was  clear  --  the  position  on 
that  was  clear  from  sometime  in  1981  until  I  left  the 
White  House. 

Q  Had  he  ever  before  said  that  he  wanted  to  take 
action  unilaterally? 

A    I  can't  say  that  I  can  recall  his  using  that  exact 
formulation  before. 

Q  The  word  "unilaterallyH J  does  that  mean  taking 
action  without  congressional  approval?  Is  that  what  you 
were  conveying? 

A    That  is  what  I  was  conveying. 

Q  And  that  the  President  would  be  exercising  his 
constitutional  prerogatives? 

A    That  is  correct. 

Q    And  do  you  remember  that  Colonel  North  got  hold  of 
this  and  suggested  the  way  to  take  action  unilaterally 
was  to  seize  a  part  of  Nicaragua  and  recognize  it? 

A    I  remember  that  Colonel  North  replied  to  this  — 
I  believe  I  sent  him  a  copy  of  it,  yes,  I  did. 

Q    In  any  event,  you  never  appi 


That  was  never  approved. 

IIKIOLl££iaCll 


1452 


WHSSW 


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1  Q    Was  it  ever  elevated  to  the  President? 

2  A    I  can't  recall  that. 

»  3        Q    Is  it  fair  to  say  only  if  you  regarded  something  as 

^  a  serious,  feasible  proposal  that  you  would  elevate  it  to  the 

5  President? 

6  A    That  is  correct. 

7  I  MR.  LEON:   Before  you  switch  subjects  — 

8  THE  WITNESS:   I  am  not  saying  that  it  wasn't 

9  serious. 

10  MR.  LIMAN:   I  said  "feasible"  also. 

11  MR.  LEON:   On  this  one  point  when  the  President 

12  suggested  he  might  act  unilaterally,  did  he  give  you  the 

13  impression  in  any  way,  shape  or  form  by  suggesting  that 

14  he  intended  to  act  outside  of  the  law  in  any  way? 

15  THE  WITNESS:   None  whatsoever.   All  with  —  the 

16  point,  as  I  recall,  is  that  he  wanted  us  to  think  about  ways 

17  he  would  under  the  Constitution  lawfully  act  unilaterally. 
19  SB.. .LIMAN:   Mark  as  the  next  exhibits  two 

19  memoranda,  one  from  Oliver  North  to  you  dated  July  17, 

20  1986  ~ 

21  MR.  LEON:   That  will  be  Exhibit  44? 

22  MR.  LIMAN:   Yes.   And  Exhibit  4  5  is  a  memorandum 

23  of  July  28,  1986  from  you  to  the  President  that  was  prepared 

24  by  Oliver  North  and  bears  the  initials  "R.R."   Afier  you 

25  have  looked  at  it,  the  question  I  have  is  for  you  to 


iiNniiSMim 


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IMOTtr 


31 


explain  to  me  why  you  elevated  this  issue  of  Mr.  Terrell 
to  the  President  of  the  United  States. 

(Exhibits  44  and  45  were  marked  for  identification.) 

MR.  BECKLER:   What  is  the  page  number? 

MR.  LIMAN:   It  is  right  on  the  — 

MR.  BECKLER:   Somebody  flipped  over  something  to  me 
that  is  different. 

MR.  LIMAN:  One  is  the  memorandum  from  Mr.  North 
to  Mr.  Poindexter,  and  it  has,  if  you  look  at  that  —  that 
is  Exhibit  44. 

If  you  look  at  page  2  — 

MR.  BECKLER:   Which  one  do  you  have  there,  Arthur? 

What  is  on  the  top,  memorandum  for  the  President? 

MR.  LIMAN:   That  is  Exhibit  45. 

MR.  BECKLER:   What  is  the  number  of  that? 

MR.  LIMAN:   That  is  45. 

MR.  BECKLER:   All  right. 

MR.  LIMAN:   The  Other  memorandum,  which  is  44, 
is  a  memorandum  from  Oliver  North  with  the  recommendation 
that  says  "that  you  discuss  this  matter  with  the  Attorney 
General  and  the  President,  as  appropriate." 

MR.  BECKLER:   There  is  one  marked  45907. 

MR.  KAPLAN:   It  is  probably  just  a  mistake  in 
copying.  » 

MR.  LEON:   That  should  be  an  attachment.   N-45907, 


J5^EIEn._ 


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ilNBtUfflEr 


32 


Mr.  Beckler,  which  is  a  memorandum  from  Colonel  North  to 
Admiral  Poindexter  on  July  25  is  attached  as  an  addition  to 
Exhibit  45,  which  is  the  memo  from  the  Admiral  to  the 
President,  N-45896. 


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BY   MR.     LIMAN 


Q      Look  at  Exhibit  44.   Is  that  your  handwriting-? 

A      Yes. 

Q     What  does  it  say? 

A     "Ollie,  give  me  another  memo  for  the  President, 
this  time  including  the  results  of  OSG.   What  do  you  want  me 
to  tell  the  AG? 

Q     If  you  look  at  Exhibit  45,  are  those  your  initials! 
on  the  memorandum  to  the  President? 

A     Yes,  they  are. 

Q     Are  those  the  President's  initials,  do  you  know? 

A     Yes. 

Q     That  means  that  he  has  seen  that  memorandum? 

A     That  he  has  seen  it  and  probably  read  it. 

0     And  it  was  your  decision  to  present  this  to  the 
President  of  the  United  States? 

A     That  is  correct. 

Q     Do  you  recall  the  incident  now,  as  you  sit  here 
now? 

A     No.   I  haven't  had  a  chance  to  read  either  one 
of  them  yet. 

Q     Well,  if  you  look  at  —  I  would  ask  you  to  look 
at  44.   Tell  me  as  you  read  Exhibit  44  why  it  is  that  you 
asked  "Oliver  North  to  prepare  a  memorandum  from  you  to  the 


President  of  the  United  States? 


ji(!LA.^.<;inFn 


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lEUSJIflHI^ ' 


34 


Your  question  is? 


Q     Why  did  you  elevate  that  to  the  President? 

A     Because  the  talks  about  a  possibile  assassination 
attempt  against  him. 

Q     That  was  the  reason  for  sending  that  to  the 
President? 

A     Thosef  things  are  always  judgment  calls,  but 
reading  it  now,  I  would  guess  that  that  was  my  rationale. 

Q     what  is  the  reference  in  that  memorandum  to 
Project  Democracy  Security  Officer,  amd  who  is  the  Project 
Democracy  Security  Officer? 

A     I  don't  know  that. 

Q     Did  you  ever  discuss  with  the  President  of  the 
United  States  the  lawsuit  that  is  described  here  as  Avirgan/ 
Honey  lawsuit,  in  the  first  paragraph  of  the  note? 

A     I  don't  know  the  answer  to  that. 

Q     At  the  time  that  you  elevated  this  to  the 
President  of  the  United  States,  did  emyone  tell  you  other 
than  North  that  Terrell  was  threatening  the  President  of  the 
United  States? 

i-lR.  BECKLER:   Wait  a  minute.   You  said  in  the  first 
paragraph  of  his  note  to  the  President,  there  is  a  lawsuit 

MR.  LIMAN:   I  did  not  say  that,  and  if  you  would 
listen  and  stop  interrupting  the  examination,  h*  is  looking 
at  the  memorandum  from  North  to  him,  which  led  him  to  ask 


iim  ASSIHER 


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North  to  prepare  the  memo  for  the  President.   At  the  time  he 
asked  North  to  prepare  the  memo  for  the  President,  he  obviouslU 
didn't  have  a  memorandum  to  the  President  in  front  of  him. 
I  am  asking  him  what  in  the  memorandum  from  North  led  him  to 
do  it. 

Now,  the  question  was:   did  you  ever  discuss  with 
the  PresJ  dent  this  lawsuit? 

MR.  LEON:   In  Exhibit  44,  Arthur,  right? 

THE  WITNESS:   Is  that  in  Exhibit  45? 
MR.  BECKLER:   You  have  to  read  Exhibit  45.   That  is 
what  I  am  saying.   What  he  discussed  with  the  President  is 
in  his  memo  from  him  to  the  President. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Is  that  your  testimony?   The  only 
thing  you  discussed  with  the  — 

MR.  BECKLER:   That  is  not  his  testimony.   In 
light  of  the  question  —  the  best  thing  as  to  what  he  told 
the  President  is  what  is  in  the  memo  from  him  to  the  President 
not  what  is  in  the  memo  from  North  to  him. 

MR.  LIMAN:   That  is  your  testimony,  discussion  is 
in  the  memo? 

MR.  BECKLER:   My  testimony  is  as  good  as  yours. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Mine  was  a  question. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Yours  was  more  than  a  question. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Is  this  the  way  you  intend  to  conduct 
yourself  at  our  hearings? 


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36 


MR.  ffiCKLER:   I  intend  to  protect  the  rights  of 
my  client,  period.   That  is  what  I  intend  to  do. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN:   I  would  like  the  record  to  reflect, 
Mr.  Beckler,  there  is  a  difference  between  protecting  the 
rights  of  a  client  and  obstruction  of  an  examination. 

MR.  BECKLER:   If  you  are  calling  me  on  obstruction 
of  an  investigation,  that  is  your  prerogative,  Mr.  Liman. 
We  will  let  others  judge  that.   You  know,  I  find  it  interest- 
ing, too.   I  read  in  the  paper  the  other  day  that  others  were 
accused  of  obstruction  of  investigation,  too.   Is  that  the 
tactic  of  this  committee,  to  accuse  lawyers  of  obstructing 
an  investigation  because  they  object  to  certain  questions? 

MR.  LIMAN:   I  didn't  see  anything  in  the  paper 
about  that,  nor  did  I 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  read  something  in  the  paper  the 
other  day  about  obstruction  by  lawyers  with  a  reference  to 
documents. 

MR.  LIMAN:   You  dtn't  hese  it  from  us. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  read  it  in  the  paper.   But  I  am 
hearing  it  from  you,  which  confirms  some  of  the  things  I  read 
in  newspapers  when  you  talk  about  obstructing  investigations. 

MR.  LIMAN:   The  record  will  reflect  the  way 
you  are  conducting  yourselves  today. 

MR.  BECKLER:   The  record  will  reflect  the  way 


you  are  conducting  yourselves 


UNCUSSIFIFD 


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IfNHIISSIflEff'' 

^This  isn't  my  20  minutes.   I  am  excluding  from 
my  20  minutes  his  speeches. 

MR.  LEON:   Off  the  record. 
(Discussion  off  the  record. ) 

THE  WITNESS:   I  have  read  both  of  them  now.   what 
is  the  question? 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q     The  question  is:   Did  you  discuss  that  lawsuit 
with  the  President  of  the  United  States? 

A     Well,  it  is  mentioned  in  the  second  page  of 
Exhibit  45. 

Q     Do  you  have  any  recollection  of  discussing  it 
with  the  President  of  the  United  States? 

A     I  don't  have  any  —  other  than  this  memo  —  I 
don't  have  smy  other  recollection. 

Q     Did  you  follow  the  progress  of  that  lawsuit? 

A     I  did  not. 

Q     Were  you  aware  that  a  lawsuit  was  brought  against 
Secord  emd  others? 

A     I  obviously  was,  because  that  is  covered  in  — 

Q     In  the  exhibit? 

A     ~  In  Exhibit  44. 

Q     Were  you  aware  of  the  fact  a  lawsuit  was  brought 
against  Secord  and  others  before  this  was  sent  tp  you? 

A     I  can't  remember  that.   I  may  have  been.   But, 


llNCLA.S.^IFIFn 


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as  I  said,  I  did  not  follow  that  closely. 

Q     Did  Colonel  North  tell  you  ^at  he  felt  he  was 
being  harassed  at  his  home  by  opponents  of  the  contras? 

A     I,  yes,  recall  —  I  am  not  sure  t«t  his  home  w«.s 
harassed. 

Q     Did  he  ever  ask  you  to  seek  protection  for  him? 
A     I  can't  recall  that.   You  know,  that  is  something 
that  probably  would  not  have  come  to  me.   It  would  have  come 
to  the  administrative  people  on  the  staff. 
Q     You  just  don't  recall? 

A     I  just  don't  recall.   The  one  incident  I  do 
recall,  and  I  am  not  sure  Colonel  North  told  me  or  somebody 
else,  but  I  was  aware  that  somebody  had  done  some  damage  to 
one  of  his  automobiles  or  something.   I  can't  remember 
exactly  what  it  was,  but  he  was  clearly  in  a  vulnerable 
position. 

Q     Were  there  mechanisms  for  providing  protection 
for  people  in  vulnerable  positions? 

A     For  senior  people  the  government  does  have 
provisions. 

Q     Did  he  ever  ask  your  permission  to  have  General 
Secord  provide  a  security  system  for  him? 
A     I  don't  recall  that. 

MR.  LIMAN:   I  will  mark  as  the  next  ^exhibit  a 
memorandum  dated  July  29,  1986,  from  Oliver  North* to  you 


ilNniiSSIFIFn 


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39 


entitled  "Mext  steps  on  the  American  hostages." 

(Exhibit  Number  46  was  marked  for  identification.) 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     Admiral,  the  only  question  I  ann   going  to  have  on 
this  one  is  if  you  look  at  the  last  page.   It  says 
"recommendations,  that  you  brief  the  President  regarding  our 
conclusions  on  the  Jenco  release  as  indicated  above  and 
obtain  his  approval  for  having  the  240  Hawk  missile  parts 
shipped  from  Israel  to  Iran  as  soon  as  possible,  followed  by 
a  meeting  with  the  Iranians  in  Europe." 

Then  is  that  your  signature  or  initials  —  JP  — 
next  to  approved? 
A     It  is. 
Q      It  says  "President  approved,  JP."   That  is  your 


writing? 
A 
Q 


That  is  my  writing. 

Does  that  signify  you  in  fact  briefed  the 


President  and  he  approved  what  was  proposed? 

A     That  is  correct. 

0     And  this  is  a  System  4  document? 

A     Yes,  it  is. 

Q     Were  you  familiar  with  the  System  4? 

A     Yes. 

0     And  did  you  ever  ask  anyone  to  deletf  any 
documents  from  System  4? 


HtSSIHED 


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A  The  only  conversation  that  I  can  recall  even  that 
is  remotely  connected  to  that  is  the  one  I  gave  you  on  May  2, 
my  conversation  with  Mr.   DeGraf fenreid. 

Q     Were 'you  familiar  with  the  steps  that  would  have 
to  be  taken  to  delete  a  document  System  4  so  there  would  be 
no  reference  to   it  left  in  the  files? 

A     I  can't  say  I  was  that  familiar  with  the  details 
of  how  the  files  were  maintained. 

Q     It  is  fair  to  say  you  never  actually  worked  with 
the  computer  to  remove  the  reference  to  documents  in  System 
4. 

A     No,  I  did  not. 

Q     Did  anyone  ever  tell  you  that  there  were  any 
System  4  documents  that  referred  to  the,^e^s*osW 

A     No,  I  don't  believe  so. 

Q     Now,  let's  go  to  exhibit  — 

MR.  LEON:   While  he  is  looking  for  that,  would 
you  look  at  the  last  page  of  that  last  exhibit?   It  has  a 
number  44489.   It  says  in  the  middle  in  handwriting,  "seven 
pages  withdrawn."   It  looks  like  "4020-87,   with  the 
initials  LDC.   Do  you  recognize  the  initials? 

A     No. 

Q     Have  you  ever  seen  this  page ,  this  document 
number.s  N  44489,  that  is  attached  to  this  memorandum  of  July 


29  prior  to  today? 


UlilMIlL 


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WSSSffSf^ 


41 


I  don't  believe  so. 


Q     You  had  no  knowledge  or  involvement  in  the 
withdrawal  of  those  seven  pages,  as  indicated  in  that 
notification,  did  you? 
A     No. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     That  is  not  going  to  come  out  of  my  time  either, 
I  can  assure  you,  because  I  think  you  are  well  aware  those 
seven  pages  were  withdrawn  by  the  NSC,  because  they  did  not" 
feel  that  they  ought  to  be  shared  with  the  committees,  that 
we  needed  them. 

MR.  LEON:   I  didn't  know  that. 

MR.  LIMAN:   You  can  see  the  date  —  4/20/87  — 
that  they  were  removed  so  we  wouldn' t  have  sources  -- 

MR.  BECKLER:   That  does  come  out  of  your  time, 
your  response. 

MR.  LIMAN:   No,  it  doesn't. 

The  next  documents  are  two  documents  --  Exhibit 
47  is  a  memorandum  dated  September  2,    1986  from  Oliver  North 
to  Admiral  Poindexter  headed  "Next  Steps,"  and  the  document 
following  that  is  a  September  8,  1986  memorandum  from  Oliver 
North  to  Admiral  Poindexter,  also  entitled  "Next  Steps." 
(Exhibits  47  and  48  were  marked  for 


identification. ) 


UNCUSSIFIED 


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r 


BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     If  you  will  look  at  Exhibit  47  first,  what  does 
nonf log  mean? 

MR.  SMALL:   This  is  the  reference  up  in  the 
upper  right  hand  corner  of  Exhibit  47? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Right. 

THE  WITNESS:   Nonflog  means  it  is  not  in  System 

y 

1,  3,  or  4,  or  1,  2  and  4. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Who  kept  non+log  documents? 


The  staff  officer  that  originated  it  usually. 


Did  nonflog  provide  a  greater  degree  of  security? 

Well,  a  nonflog  was  not  a  formal  —  it  was  an 

/ 

informal  mechanism  that  the  staff  used  sometimes.   We  let 
them  do  it,  but  generally  we  try  to  involve  non4log  items. 

Q     Was  it  used  to  provide  greater  security  and 
compartmentalization? 

A     Not  in  any  sort  of  premeditated  way.   It  was 
just,  if  a  staff  officer  felt  that  it  didn't  need  to  be 
logged  in  a  system,  he  would  use  that.   We  generally  tried 
to  discourage  it. 

Q     Did  you  keep  amy  nonflog  documents  in  your  files? 

A     It  is  conceivable. 
.Q     If  a  staff  officer  would  originate  a  nonj^og 
document  to  you,  would  you  send  it  back  to  that* 'of f icer  in 


UNCUMe 


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43 

the  normal  course? 

A     I  may  have  from  time  to  time,  but  usually  after 

—  first  of  all,  I  am  not  sure  I  have  seen  this,  so  I  am 

answering  general  questions  about  non|log  items.   But  my 

/ 
usual  procedure  was  to,  after  reading  a  document,  put  it  in 

my  out4basket.   I  didn't  keep  close  tabs  of  what  the  outer 

> 
office  did  with  the  memos  then,  w|eWther  they  were  filed  in 

the  outer  office  or  whether  they  were  sent  to  the  regular  mail 

clerk. 

Q     Did  you  keep  your  own  files  on  Iran? 

A     The  only  thing  I  kept  would  have  been  very  —  I 
didn't  really  have  a  file  on  Iran.   As  I  testified  before,  I 
kept  a  stack  of  papers  on  my  desk  of  things  that  I  thought  I 
might  have  to  refer  to. 

Q     Working  files? 

A     Working  files,  yes.   I  did  not  keep  large  personal 


files. 


North  was? 


Q 
A 

-Q 
sir? 


You  weren' tysquirrel  for  documents  like  Oliver 


MR.  BECKLER:   You  can  say  what  you  are. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Did  you  ever  go  to  his  office? 

I  don't  recall  ever  being  in  his  office. 

Did  you  know  that  he  was  a  collector  of  documents, 


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A     I  am  not  sure  how  you  define  collector  of 
documents. 

Q     That  he  kept  more  documents  tha^(  you  did?     .      j 
A     He  apparently  did. 

Q     Are  you  able  to  identify  your  check  marks  from 
anyone  else's? 
A     No. 

Q     This  had  a  check  mark  but  you  can't  identify  who 
put  that  on  here? 

A     I  sign  my  initials  two  ways,  one,  this  way,  and 
one   JP. 

Q     This  doesn't  have  an  initial,  it  has  a  check  mark. 
MR.  LEON:   For  the  record,  which  one? 
MR.  LIMAN:   He  was  referring  to  Exhibit  45  as 
one  of  the  ways. 

MR.  LEON:   How  about  the  check  mark? 
MR.  LIMAN:   We  were  just  looking  at  Exhibit  47. 
THE  WITNESS:   Exhibit  46  has  one  of  the  two  ways 
and  Exhibit  45  has  the  other. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     I  will  show  you  Exhibit  48,  which  is  a  memorandum 
dated  Septemer  8,  1986  from  North  to  you.   Again,  it  is  a 
"Next  Steps"  memo,  and  it  has  an  approv^  with  a  check  mark. 
I  take -it  you  cemnot  tell  whether  that  is  your  check  mark  or 
not? 


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A  I   can't   tell  whether   that   is   my  check  mark  or  notl 

Q  Did   the   President   of   the   United   States    approve 

the   opening  of   the   second   channel? 

A  Yes.' 

Q     Did  the  President  of  the  United  States  approve 
the  shipment  of  500  TOWs  to  the  second  channel  or  through 
the  second  channel? 

A     Yes. 

Q     Were  you  aware,  sir,  that  under  the  arrangements 
that  were  made  with  the  second  channel  that  you  would  not 
be  receiving  all  of  the  hostages  upon  the  delivery  of  the 
500  TOWs? 

A     I  believe  so,  but  I  would  have  to  go  back  to 
review  those  documents. 

Q     As  you  sit  here  today,  without  reviewing  a  whole 
mass  of  documents,  are  you  able  to  tell  us  how  it  happened 
that  the  President  of  the  United  States  changed  his  position 
from  insisting  on  release  of  all  of  the  hostages  before  any 
more  arms  were  delivered  to  Iran  to  accepting  a  sequential 
release  of  the  hostages  with  deliveries  of  arms? 
(Witness  consulting  with  counsel) 
THE  WITNESS:   I  think,  as  with  all  of  us,  as  the 
evolution  wore  on,  the  President  was  just  simply,  was 
unwilling  to  give  up  the  possibility  of  at  least  getting 
some  out,  although  that  wasn't  our  main  objective. 


«f|(B^«- 


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BY  MR.  LIMAN: 


Q     And  did  you  recommend  that  to  him? 

A     ProCably.   I  would  have  —  as  you  can  tell  from 
earlier  PROFS  notes,  I  felt  pretty  strongly  that  we  ought  to 
get  them  all. 

Q     I  can  tell  from  earlier  PROF  notes  that  you 
appeared  to  be  the  tough  guy. 

A     Yes. 

Q     Did  it  ultimately  wear  you  away? 

A     I  can't  recall  whether  I  recommended  that  to  the 
President  or  not.   I  didn't  disagree  with  him,  but  I  can't 
recall  actually  what  he  recommended. 

Q     Was  there  anyone  else  in  the  White  House  group 
who  was  urging  the  President  to  take  what  he  could  get? 

A     No,  I  don't  think  so.   Although  the  Vice 
President  and  the  Chief  of  Staff  were  usually  there  for 
meetings,  I  discussed  things  with  the  President.   They  pretty 
much  left  the  discussion  up  to  the  President  and  me.   I 
don't  recall  their  voicing  opinions  one  way  or  the  other. 

Q     Now,  do  you  recall  Colonel  North  ever  reporting 
to  you  that  the  second  channel  and  he  had  agreed  to 
establishing  a  committee  consisting  of  Iranians  and 
Americans? 

-  A     I  remember  that. 

Q     Did  you  approve  that? 


\m\  AMinFH 


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A     Yes,  I  did. 

Q     Did  you  elevate  that  to  the  President  of  the 
United  States? 

A     I  probably  did. 

Q     Did  he  tell  you  who  was  going  to  serve  on  the 
committee  for  the  United  States? 
A     Did  who  tell  me? 
Q     Colonel  North. 

A     I  can't  recall  discussing  that  in  great  detail. 
Q     Do  you  remember  it  was  Oliver  North,  Mr.  Secord, 
and  Mr.  Cave? 

A     I  don't  —  that  would  be  consistent.   I  mean, 
I  am  not  surprised. 

Q     Did  you  approve  that? 
A     In  effect,  I  would  have. 
Q     What  does  in  effect  mean? 

A     Well,  in  effect,  the  whole  point  of  the  committee 
was  eventually  to  recognize  this,  but  we  had  to  get  it 
started  first,  and  the  plan  all  along  was  once  we  could  get 

it  regulated  we  would  bring  in  other  departments  of 
government. 

I  guess  the  reason  why  1  am  hesitating  there  a 
little  bit,  when  you  say  those  were  the  three  members  from 
the  U".S.  side,  it  would  have  been  a  temporary  aprt   of  thing. 
In  order  to  get  started,  those  three  would  have  been  involvedj. 

iiNHi  m\m 


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Q     Did  you  receive  any  transcripts  of  conversations 
between  Oliver  North  and  the  Iranians? 

MR.  BECKLER:   At  what  point  in  time? 
MR.  LIMAN:   Second  channel. 
THE  WITNESS:   You  mean  actually  typed  out? 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     Typed  out. 
A     Verbatim? 

Q     Let's  start  out  with  verbatim. 
A     No. 

Q     Did  you  ever  receive  any  tape  recordings 
themselves? 

A     No,  I  did  not. 

Q     Did  you  ever  receive  any  memoranda  of  his 
discussions  back  and  forth  with  the  second  channel? 
A     Yes,  I  did. 

Q     Did  you  ever  share  those  memoranda  with  the 
President  of  the  United  States? 

A     I  probably  read  to  the  President  summaries  of  the 
discussions. 

But,  again,  the  930  file  might  help. 
Q     I  appreciate  that.  Admiral.   Did  Oliver  North 
ever  tell  you  that  he  ever  communicated  to  the  Iranians  that 
the  President  had  a  low  opinion  of  the  Chief  of  ,State  of 


Iraq? 


UNCLASSIFIED 


1471 


49 


A     What  is  the  question  again? 

Q     Did  Oliver  North  ever  tell  you  that  he  had  told 
the  second  channel  Iranians  that  the  President  of  the  United 
States  had  a  low  opinion  of  the  President  of  Iraq? 

A     He  may  have.   That  doesn't  stand  out  in  my  mind. 

Q     Did  you  authorize  him  to  tell  the  second  channel 
Iranians  the  United  States  would  cooperate  in  deposing  the 
President  of  Iraq? 

A     No,  I  didn't. 

Q     Did  you  ever  see  any  summaries  of  meetings  that 
indicated  that  he  and  others  in  this  American  delegation  were 
saying  things  like  that  to  the  Iraqis? 

A     To  the  Iraqis? 

Q     To  the  Iranians. 

A     I  may  have.   I  can't  remember  that. 

Q     Do  you  recall  seeing  any  kind  of  sximmary  of  a 
transcript  which  he  attributed  to  the  President,  a  profanity 
directed  at  the  President  of  Iraq? 

A     I  am  not  sure  about  that.   I  am  having  trouble 
keeping  separated  what  I  have  seen  in  preparationJ|  for  these 
hearings  and  what  I  saw  before.   I  am  not  sure  about  that. 

Q     Did  you  authorize  North  or  other  members  of  the 
Americem  delegation  to  the  second  channel  Iranians 
condemnation  of  the  Iraqis? 

A     I  don't  believe  I  ever  did  that. 

Q     Was  it  Ur.ited  States  policy  at  that  time  to  try 

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ta  bring  about  the  deposing  of  the  President  of  Iraq? 

A     Thf^JJ.S.  policy  was  to  bring  an  end  to  the  war 
between  Iran  and  Iraq. 

Q     So  the  answer  to  that  question  is  no? 

A     It  would  be. no. 

Q     Did  you  ever  authorize  Oliver  North  or  other 
members  of  the  American  delegation  to  say  that  they  would  use 
their  good  offices  to  try  to  persuade  the  Kuwaitis  to  release 
the  Dawa  prisoners? 

Let  the  record  reflect  there  has  been  a 
consultation. 

A     1    am   sorry,  what  was  your  specific  question 
again? 

Q     Did  you  ever  authorized  Oliver  North  to  tell  the 
^ond  channel  Iranians  that  the  United  States  use  its  good 
offices  to  try  to  persuade  the  Kuwaitis  to  release  the  Dawa 
prisoners? 

A     No,  I  didn't.   The  President's  policy  on  that 
was  we  shouldn't  put  any  pressure  of  any  kind  from  the  U.S. 
Government  on  Kuwait.   I  told  Colonel  North  that.   My 
understanding  of  what  they  discussed  though,  was  not 
inconsistent  with  that. 

Q     What  did  you  understand  they  were  discussing? 

A     I  understood  they  were  discussing  tfh^t  General 
Secord  on  his  own,  privately,  would  come  up  with  a  plan  that 


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51 


the  Iranians  could  then  use  in  order  to  try  to  convince  the 
Kuwaitis  to  make  some  concessions  on  the  Dawa  prisoners. 

Q     Did'^you  clear  that  with  the  President? 

A     What  with  the  President? 

Q     That  consistent  with  his  policy ,  General  Secord 
would  be  permitted  to  do  this? 

A     This  was  not  cleared  with  the  President  ahead 
of  time  because  I  did  not  know  that  they  were  going  to  raise 
that  issue.   But  you  misunderstood  that  in  all  of  these 
discussions  that  were  going  on  in  the  second  channel. 
Colonel  North  and  George  Cave  had  wide  lat^itude  in  discuss- 
ing various  matters  with  the  Iranians. 

Q     Did  their  wide  latitude  include  making  representa 
tions  that  if  the  Soviet  Union  were  to  invade  Iran  that 
we  would  fight  the  Soviets  whether  or  not  the  Iranians  liked 

it? 

A     The  U.S. -Soviet  relationship  as  it  applies  to 
Iran,  the  guidance  on  that  was  contained  in  terms  of 
reference  that  the  President  approved.   I  don't  recall 
knowing,  before  the  preparation  for  these  hearings,  knowing 
of  discussions  that  have  been  described,  and  I  would  have  to 
go  back  and  analyze  what  has  been  said  here  to  see  if  ~  my 
impression  at  this  point  is  that  what  has  been  said  in  the 
hearings*  by  various  parties,  both  on  the  congressional  side 
and  on  the  witness  side,  there  seems  to  me  to  be  some 


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misinterpretation. 

Q     The  person  who  translated  it  to  the  Iranians  is 
the  one  who  testified  to  this.   You  realize  that. 

A     But  the  policy  of  the  United  States  is  to  keep 
the  Soviet  Union  out  of  Iran. 

Q     And  was  Colonel  North  authorized  to  commit  the 
United  States  to var  with  the  Soviet  Union? 
A     He  was  not. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Don't  answer  that.   Objection. 
It  is  2I35.   I  said  — 

MR.  LIMAN;   If  I  go  another  ten  minutes,  we  will 
only  have  some  clean-up. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  break  for  lunch  now. 
(Whereupon,  at  2:35,  the  deposition  was 
recessed. ) 

(Exhibits  through  No.  52  were  marked  at  lunch 
break. ) 


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53 


AFTERNOON  SESSION 

MR^  LIMAN :   I  will  show  a  document  we  have  marked 
as  Poindexter  Exhibit  49,  which  is  a  memo  dated  October  2, 
1986,  from,  of  all  people,  Oliver  North,  to  you.   The  only 
question   I  have  for  you  on  that  is:   Are  these  your  initials 
on  the  page  that  has  a  place  for  approving? 

THE  WITNESS:   They  are.   I  haven't  read  the 
document. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN:   Well,  you  have  a  copy  of  the 
document.   We  are  in  the  process  of  declassifying  it,  and 
it  is  the  document  in  which  the  President  described  the 
Bible,  among  other  things,  and  approved  talking  points  with 


the 


And  then  —  did  Colonel  North  ever  describe 


his  seven  point  proposal  with  the  Iranians  with  you? 

A     He  probably  did.   I  eun  a  little  vague  now  what  ;.. 
the  seven  points  are. 

Q     We  have  marked  as  Exhibit  50  the  copy  that  we 
have  of  the  seven  point  proposal.   Would  you  remove  from  the 
exhibit,  because  it  is  not  part  of  it,  the  Farsi  part  in 
the  back? 

A     Th.e  Farsi  translation? 

Q     Yes.   It  is  not  a  translation.   It  is  classified 


anyway . 


A     The  question  is  what?  •'. 

Q     Did  he  ever  describe  the  seven  points  to  you? 

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A     Well,  I  don't  recall  seeing  this  particular 
document  befor«»._  These  points  are  familiar  to  me.   I  would 
have  to  know  more  about  time  frame.   These  points  are 
generally  consistent  with  various  components  of  various  plans 
that  existed  over  the  period  of  time  that  we  were  working 
the  Iranian  project. 

Q     Did  Oliver  North  obtain  approval  from  you  for 
various  plans  presented  to  the  Iranians? 

A     At  various  times,  yes,  and  the  President. 

Q     And  did  he  ever  come  back  to  you  and  tell  you 
that  the  Iranians  had  come  up  with  something  called  the  nine 
points? 

A     What  time_^rcLne  is  this? 

Q     The  nine  points  would  have  been  October  1986. 

A     I  am  reasonably  sure  he  did. 

Q     I  am  going  to  provide  you  with  a  copy  marked 
as  Exhibit  51.     I  am  not  going  to  review  them  at  this  point 
other  than  to  ask  you  whether  you  have  any  recollection  of 
Colonel  North  asking  you  for  approval  of  something  called  the 
nine  points? 

A     I  vaguely  remember  at  some  point  in  October  the 
Iranians  coming  back.   The  nine  points  doesn't  ring  a  big 
bell.   I  can't  remember  the  exact  sequence  of  events,  but  I 
believe  he  did  report  those  to  me,  and  they  wer^  points  with 
which  we  agreed 


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Q     Following  the  presentation  of  these  points,  500 
TOWS  were  shipped  to  the  second  channel? 

A     That  is  correct. 

Q     And  was  that  approved  by  the  President? 

A      It  was. 

Q     In  the  first  session  of  your  examination  I  asked 
you  about  the  1986  Barnes  and  Hamilton  inquiry  concerning 
Colonel  North's  activities  on  behalf  of  the  contras.   I 
will  show  Exhibit  52,  which  consists  of  a  transmitM.^  slip, 
a  memo,  which  purports  to  have  your  writing  on  it,  and  the 
Barnes  letter,  and  I  will  ask  you  if  this  is  your  note  on 
the  second  page  and  if  you  would  read  it  into  the  record? 

A     Yes,  this  is  my  handwuiSting,  with  the  one 


exception 
Q 
A 
Q 


What  is  the  one  exception? 

The  addition  of  the  name  Bui^^hart  to  the  list. 

You  indicated  that  sometime  later,  almost  a  year 
later,  you  received  a  copy  of  Mr.  McFarlane's  response  and 
that  you  thought  that  some  of  his  responses  were  phrased 
more  broadly  than  you  would  have  had  you  been  the  author  of 
this  letter. 

I  will  show  you  Exhibit  53,  which  is  his 
September  12,  '85  response  to  Congressman  Barnes  and  ask  you 
to  look  at  it.   I  have  only  one  question:   whether  the 
statement  in  the  second  paragraph  which  says:   "based  on 


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56 

this  review,  I  want  to  assure  you  that  my  actions,  and  those 
of  my  staff,  have  been  in  compliance  with  both  the  spirit 
and  the  letter  of  the  law." 

Is  one  of  those  sentences  you  felt  too 
categorical? 

A     To  correct  what  you  said  a  moment  ago,  I  don't 
think  I  have  ever  seen  this.   As  some  point  in  August  of  '86 
I  asked  Commander  Thompson  if  he  had  —  this  was  in 
conjunction  with  the  letter  Chairman  Hamilton  sent  me  —  I 
asked  Commander  Thompson  if  he  had  a  copy  of  Mr.  McFarlane's 
response  the  previous  year.   He  said  he  did. 

I  said,  "I  may  want  to  look  at  it." 
I  never  goi" around  to  looking  at  it.   I  have  seen 
excerpts  of  this  in  the  Tower  Commission  report. 

Q     And  when  you  saw  it  in  the  Tower  Commission 
report  you  said  there  was  some  language  in  it  which  you  felt 
was  more  categorical  than  you  would  have  used.   Is  that  fair 
to  say? 

A     I  think  that  is  fair  to  say. 

Q     Is  the  sentence  I  read  to  you  one  of  them? 
Let  the  record  reflect  a  consultation. 

A     As  I  have  testified  before,  I  wouldn't  have 
responded  the  way  that  Mr.  McFarlane  did,  and  I  would  not  have 
that  that  way.   I  am  not  quite  sure  what  Bud  h'ad  in  mind. 

Q     Why  would  you  not  have  felt  comfortable  saying 

iiMoi  Accincn 


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57 


that  my  actions,  and  those  of  my  staff,  have  been  in 
compliance  with  both  the  spirit  and  the  letter  of  the  law? 
And  the  law  they  are  referring  to  is  the  Boland  Amendment. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  am  going  to  object  to  that.   You 
are  asking  him  what  the  operation  of  his  mind  is  in  view  of 
violating  the  Boland  Amendment  in  a  letter  written  by 
somebody  else. 

MR.  LIMAN:   I  am  asking  him  why  he  would  be 
uncomfortable  making  that  kind  of  statement  to  Congress. 

I  will  rephrase  it  and  make  it  very  simple. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     Did  you  believe  that  in  September  of  1985  that 
the  activities  of  Colonel  North  were  in  compliance  with  both 
the  spirit  and  letter  of  the  Boland  Amendment? 

(Witness  consulting  with  counsel) 

THE  WITNESS:   As  I  have  said  earlier,  I  would 
not  have  been  asjcategorical  in  the  letter ^s  Mr.  McFarlane 
was.   I  don't  know,  I  don't  know  what  Bud  had  in  mind.   I  am 
probably  not  aware  of  everything  that  Colonel  North  did,  and 
I  just  —  it  is  too  categorical  a  statement. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q     All  right.   Remember  there  came  a  tiiae  when  you 
had  to  deal  with  a  resolution  of  inquiry  being  prepared  by 
Congress?   That  was  a  year  later,  in  August  of  ,'86. 
A     Yes. 
Q.    And  you  remember  that  Oliver  North  met  with 


>.    And  you  rememoer  tnac  uxiyi 


1480 


WSiHft" 


58 


the  Congressional  representatives  of  Congressional 
committees?  ^^_ 

A     Yes.   In  an  informal  meeting  in  the  situation 
room. 


1 
2 
3 

4 

*  Q     And  did  you  receive  a  report  of  what  Oliver 

6  North's  responses  were? 

7  A     As  I  recall,  I  received  a  summary  that  purported 

8  to  be  that. 

9  Q     Do  you  recall  telling  Oliver  North  by  PROF  note 

10  that  his  responses  were,  quote,  "well  done?" 

11  MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  look  at  the  exact  thing. 

12  MR.  LIMAN:   Exhibit  54.   It  is  a  PROF  note  from 

13  the  Admiral  dated  August  11,  1986,  and  a  PROF  note  from  Mr. 

14  Pearson  to  him.   The  Pearson  note  reflects  North's  answers. 

15  MR.  LEON:   Could  the  Admiral  identify  for  the 

16  record  who  Mr.  Pearson  was  at  that  time? 

17  THE  WITNESS:   He  was  the  Deputy  Executive 

18  Secretary  of  the  NSC  staff. 

19  BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

20  Q     Did  you  write  "well  done,"  Admiral? 

21  A     Let  me  read  what  I  wrote  well  done  for. 

22  Q     Does  it  say  "Subject:  HPSCI  Interview  of  North". 

23  -        MR.  BECKLER:   Let  me  state  for  the  record  here, 

24  the  question  was  something  to  the  effect  —  we*  can  have  it 

25  read  back  —  "well  done"  for  the  responses.   There  is  nothing 


1481 


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end  mhl  19 
ms  f Is 

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25 


in  here  about  well  done  for  the  responses,  it  just  says  well 
done.        ^^_ 

MR.  LIMAN:  "Subject:   HPSCI  Interview  of  North." 
Does  well  done? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Is  that  you?   Does  well  done? 

THE  WITNESS:   That  is  my  note.   What  well  done 
refers  to  is  not  clear. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
0     It  is  not  clear  to  you? 
A     It  is  not  clear  to  me. 

MR.  BECKLER:   It  is  not  clear  from  the  face  of 
this  document? 

THE  WITNESS:   The  first  sentence  of  the  PROF 
notes  —  and,  again,  you  have  to  recall  that  I  saw  many  of 
these  everyday  —  it  says  "Session  was  success,  Hamilton  will 
entertain  motion  soonest  to  report  unfavorably  on  resolution 
of  inquiry." 

That  is  the  point  of  the  inquiry,  and  that  is 
"well  done." 


1482 


*2A 


mas    1 
fls  mhl' 

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60-61 


Q  Did   it   say    "Forwarding   note    from  Mr.    Pearson"? 

A  Yes. 

Q  And    -- 

A    Well  done  is  obviously  in  response  to  this 
PROF  note  from  Pearson. 

Q    Did  you  consider  when  you  read  the  report  of 
North's  interview  that  North  had  given  candid  answers 
to  the  committee? 

A    I  really  can't  comment  without  reading  a 
transcript  of  exactly  what  Ollie  said.   The  point  was  that 
Chairman  Hamilton  was  satisfied  and  I  was  pleased  with 
that. 

Q  Isn't  the  point  that  Oliver  North  had  misrepre- 
sented facts  to  the  House  Committee?  Isn't  that  what  the 
fact  is? 

A    I  don't  know  that,  Mr.  Liman. 

Q    And  isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  were  telling  him 
well  done  for  deflecting  this  inquiry? 

A    I  was  telling  him  well  done  that  he  had  carried 
out  the  briefing  and  that  Chairman  Heunilton  seemed  to  be 
satisfied. 

Q    Didn't  you  know  at  that  time  that  if  he  had  been 
frank  with  Chairman  Hamilton  that  he  would  have  revealed 
that  he  was  doing  things  that  Congress  disapproved  of? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Objection.  If  he  had  known  this. 


iiNoi  hmm 


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f  he  had  done  this  or  that,  those  are  questions  you  can 
ask  Oliver  Nprth  if  you  wish. 

MR.  LIMAN:   I'm  going  to  ask  him  because  he  has 
testified  briefly  as  to  what  he  knew  North  was  doing. 

THE  WITNESS:   May  I  go  back  to  the  May  2nd 
testimony. 

SY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Do  you  have  to  read  what  was  said  on  May  2nd 
in  order  to  testify  today  as  to  what  you  knew  that  Oliver 
North  was  doing  a  year  ago? 

MR.  BECKLER:   He  is  trying  to  refresh  his 
recollection  on  testimony  that  he  gave  with  regard  to  this 
same  type  of  message  back  on  May  2nd,  and  I  would  ask 
you  not  to  badger  the  witness. 

MR.  LIMAN:   I  think  what  he  is  trying  to  do  is 
conform  his  testimony  now  to  something  he  said  in  May. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  resent  anything  about  conforming. 
We  are  not  here  to  be  badgered  by  you.   Get  on  with  your 
questions.   He  is  not  going  to  answer  anything  about  what 
Oliver  North  said  was  true  or  not  true. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Did  you  consider  what  Oliver  North  was  doing  to 
assist  the  contras  to  be  consistent  with  the  attitude  of  the 
congressional  committee  towards  the  Boland  Amendment?   Did 
you  consider  that? 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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MR.  BECKLER:   Objection.   We  are  not  going  to 
answer  that  question.   That  is  asking  him  to  draw  a 
conclusion  based  on  whether  or  not  Oliver  North  acted  in 
accordance  with  the  attitudes  of  Congress,   it  is  an 
impossible  question  to  answer. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    Admiral,  did  you  understand  Congress  was  leaking 
into  whether  or  not  North's  activities  violated  the 
Boland  Amendment? 

A    I  understood  that  a  resolution  of  inquiry  had 
been  introduced  on  the  floor  of  the  House,  it  had  been 
referred  to  three  committees:   the  House  Armed  Services 
Committee,  the  House  Foreign  Relations  Committee  and  the 
House  Intelligence  Committee.   The  House  Armed  Services 
Committee  had  considered  it  in  committee  and  provided  a 
negative  report.   Chairman  Hamilton  called  me  and  said 
that  under  the  Rules  of  the  House  they  didn ' t  have  to 
take  any  further  action  but  to  satisfy  some  of  his  members, 
he  thought  it  would  be  helpful  —  he  did  not  plan  to  push 
it,  but  he  thought  it  would  be_ helpful_if__they_could  meet 
with  Colonel  North. 

After  some  discussion  and  negotiation  with  the 
Chairman  and  consultation  with  other  White  House  staff 
members  and  my  own  staff  members,  I  did  agree  that  they 
could  informally  talk  to  Colonel  North  in  the  Situation 


luld  be  helpful  if  they  ci 

UNClASSIFlfl) 


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Room.   The  meeting  took  place,  I  received  a  report  that 
indicated  Chairman  Hamilton  was  satisfied,  and  I  said, 
well  done.   I  considered  it  the  end  of  the  issue. 

Q    Did  you  consider  that  they  were  interviewing  him 
on  Libya  or  on  the  contras? 

A    I  can't  remember  the  wording  of  the  resolution. 
Q    So  you  don't  know  as  you  sit  here  today  whether 
or  not  the  interview  related  to  the  contras? 

A    Oh,  I  think  it  probably  did.   I  don't  know 
whether  it  was  limited  to  that. 

Q    Do  you  know  that  it  included  the  contras? 
A    Yes. 

Q    And  did  you  know  that  some  of  the  activities 
that  Oliver  North  was  doing  in  support  of  the  contras 
were  activities  that  Members  of  Congress  were  concerned 
about? 

A    I  knew  that  some  of  his  activities  could  be 
controversial  and  would  not  be  agreed  to  by  some  Members 
of  Congress. 

Q    And  did  you  know  that  if  Oliver  North  revealed 
some  of  these  controversial  activities  that  there  might 
be  a  problem  on  the  Hill? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Objection. 

MR.  LIMON:   Did  you  think  that?      '  / 

MR.  BECKLER;   You  can  answer  that  question.   I 


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65 


will  withdraw  my  objection. 

THE  WITNESS:   Rephrase  the  question. 
BY  Mr"  LIMAN: 
Q    Did  you  believe  that  if  Oliver  North  revealed 
to  this  delegation  some  of  the  activities  that  are 
controversial  that  there  would  be  a  problem  for  the 
Administration  on  the  Hill? 

A    Yes,  I  thought  there  would  be. 


UNCUSSIHED 


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''.  iffi'M) 


66 


Q  Did   you   - 

MR.  BECKLER:   He  is  finishing  his  answer. 
THE  WITNESS:   My  point  is  that  I  expected 
Colonel  North  to  be  truthful  and  answer  the  specific  ques- 
tions that  were  asked,  but  not  necessarily  to  reveal  every- 
thing that  he  knew  to  answer  the  questions. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    And  when  you  got  a  report,  did  you  discover 
whether  he  had  revealed  everything  he  knew? 

A    I  couldn't  conclude  that  from  such  a  brief 
summary . 

Q    Were  you  able  to  conclude  from  that  brief  summary 
that  whatever  he  said  had  satisfied  Congress? 

A    I  was  able  to  conclude  that. 

Q    And  were  you  able  to  conclude  that  he  was  able 
to  avoid  getting  into  controversial  subjects? 

A    That's  a  subjective  question.  What  is  contro- 
versial? 

Q  As  you  sit  here  today.  Admiral,  are  you  not  able 
to  say  whether  you  were  congratulating  Oliver  North  on  his 
having  been  able  to  avoid  telling  the  Congress  some  things 
that  would  have  troubled  them? 

MR.  BECKLER;   The  question  has  been  asked  and 
answered  both  on  May  2  and  several  times  today.   It  speaks 
for  itself.   There  is  a  "well  done."   The  "well  done"  refers 


llNCimiFiFD 


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to.  the  answer  that  Hamilton,  that  Congressman  Hamilton  will 
entertain  a  motion,  so  on  and  so  forth. 

The  question  has  been  asked  and  answered.   Let's 
move  on  to  the  next  question. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    I  underscand  what  Hamilton  was  going  to  do 
because  it  says  "entertain  a  motion."   What  was  it  that 
Oliver  North  had  done  that  was  well? 

A    He  had  apparently  appeared,  had  satisfied 
Chairman  Hamilton. 

Q    Did  you  ever  tell  Secretary  of  State  Shultz  in 
or  around  May  of  1986,  before  the  Tehran  mission,  that  the 
Iranian  initiative  was  over? 

A  I  don't  recall  the  time^reune  at  all.  At  various 
points  we  did  consider  it  over.  I  can't  remember  the  time^ 
frame ,  though . 

Q  At  any  of  the  points  that  you  considered  it  over, 
did  you  consider  notifying  Congress? 

A    It  was  never  considered  that  over. 

Q    When  you  told  Secretary  — 

A    By  the  way,  I  think  Secretary  Shultz  knew  about 
the  Tehran  mission. 

Q    When  you  told  Secretary  Shultz  that  it  was  over, 
did  you  tell  him  it  wasn't  that  over?  •  / 

A    I  don't  remember  that. 


UiUSSIFIED 


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Q    What  does  the  term  "stand  down"  mean? 

A    A  temporary  cessation  of  some  activity. 

Q    Did  you  tell  him  that  you  were  standing  down  or 
that  the  initiative  was  standing  down? 

A    I  don't  remember  the  precise  words,  but  I  talked 
to  Secretary  Shultz  several  times  over  the  period  of  the 
year  about  the  Iran  initiative,  specifically  talked  to  him 
about  those  terms  of  reference.   Those  are  the  same  terms 
of  reference  that  he  later  recalled  that  we  gave  t°^^^^^| 
at  his  suggestion.  ^^^^^^ 

Q    Do  you  remember  whether  you  told  him  about  the 
terms  of  reference  before  yoj  told  him  it  was  over? 

A    I  can't  remember  the  timeframe. 

Q    You  said  you  think  he  knew  about  the  Tehran 
mission. 

A    Yes. 

Q    Did  you  tell  him? 

A    I'm  sure  I  did. 

Q    Do  you  remember  that? 

A    No,  not  precisely.   Because  he  knew  Mr.  McFarlane 
was  going  to  go. 

Q    How  do  you  know  that? 

A    Because  I  probably  told  him  that. 

Q    You  say  you  probably  told  him  that,   rfid  you  or 
didn't  you? 


UNCIASHD 


1490 


UNCUSSIFIED 


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MR.  BECKLER:   He  has  given  an  answer.   He  said  he 
probably  said  it.   Let's  read  back  the  record. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Probably  isn't  the  same  as  recalling 
that  you  did.   That  is  what  I  want  to  know. 

Do  you  recall  telling  him  — 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  go  back  and  have  the  answer 
read  to  the  initial  question  you  asked  him.   He  gave  an 
answer.   He  did  not  say  probably.   He  said,  I  believe  I 
told  him,  or  something  to  that  effect. 

MR.  LIMAN;   He  used  %#ords  like  "I  believe." 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    I  ask  whether  you  recall  telling  him? 
A    I  do  not  recall  the  specific  conversation. 

MR.  BECKLER:   That  is  the  answer  he  gave  two 
answers  ago. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    Do  you  recall  telling  him  even  if  you  don't 
recall  the  specific  conversation? 

A  I  remember  discussing  with  him  the  terms  of 
reference  and  that  the  President  planned  to  send  Bud. 
I  can't  remember  the  specific  conversation  or  the  exact 

"™>-        ONCIASSIFIED 

Q    I'm  going  to  show  you  Exhibit  55,  which  is  a 
document  dated  November  18,  1986,  with  questions'  and 
answers  regarding  United  States  policy  towards  Iran. 


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Have  you  ever  seen  this  document  before? 

A     I  don'^t  know  whether  I've  seen  this  before  or  not. 

Q     Do  you  know  what  it  is? 

A    I  know  what  it  is. 

Q    What  is  it? 

A    It  is  a  series  of  questions  and  answers  that  were 
prepared  —  at  some  stage  of  preparation.   I  don't  know  what, 
but  it  is  a  typical  format  in  preparing  press  guidance. 

Q    For  whom? 

A    For  probably  somebody  in  the  White  House.   But 
I  can't  tell  whether  this  is  a  draft  or  final  version,  or 
what  it  is. 

Q  It  refers.  Admiral,  in  a  question  on  page  6,  to 
"Did  the  shipment  of  arms  to  Iran  violate  the  Arms  Export 
Control  Act  or  any  other  law?"  And  the  reference  is  that 
it  did  not. 

Do  you  know  whether  prior  to  the  date  of  this 
exhibit,  which  is  the  18th  of  November,  you  had  obtained  — 
MR.  BECKLER:   Wait  a  minute. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    —  you  had  obtained  legal  advice  from  the  Attorney 
General  on  whether  these  shipments  had  violated  the  Arms 
Export  Control  Act?   And  particularly  the  November  ship- 
ment. 

A    Well,  it  is  not  clear  to  me  the  question  addresses 


Act.'   Ana  particuiatiy  t 

UNCLASSIFIED 


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the  November  shipment. 

Q     Let's  take  my  question.   Did  you  have  any  legal 
advice  prior  to  November  18  on  whether  the  November  Hawk 
shipment  violated  the  Arms  Export  Control  Act? 

MR.  BECKLER:   You  mean,  did  John  Poindexter  have 
any  advice? 

MR.  LIMAN:   As  National  Security  Adviser. 
THE  WITNESS:   The  only  thing  I  can  remember 
related  to  your  question,  not  necessarily  the  question  that 
is  here  on  the  paper,  is  that,  as  I've  testified  before,  at 
the  meeting  in  my  office  on  January  the  16th,  1986,  when 
Ed  Meese  made  clear  that  he  thought  that  the  best  way  to  do 
the  finding  was  to  have  the  United  States  go  directly  to 
Iran  with  the  sales  rather  than  through  Israel  so  that  we 
avoided  the  reporting  requirement  that  would  have  been 
necessary  under  the  Arms  Export  Control  Act  when  a  country 
like  Israel  transferred  arms  to  a  third  country.   That's 
the  only  thing  that  comes  close  to  the  answer  to  your 
question. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    In  November,  prior  to  November  18,  1986,  was 
there  any  discussion  about  whether  the  shipment  of  Hawks 
violated  the  Arms  Export  Control  Act? 

A    I  don't  recall  any. 

Q    Did  you  seek  any  advice  from  the  Attorney  General 


)i  Act.' 

UNCUSSIRED 


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insfflr 


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or  the  Attorney  General's  office  on  whether  you  had  a  legal 
problem? 

A    I  don't  recall  any  — 

Q    Admiral  — 

A    —  prior  to  the  18th. 

Q    Admiral,  you  testified  on  the  20th  you  did  have 
a  meeting  concerning  Casey's  testimony.   Am  I  correct? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    And  you  were  going  to  brief  the  Intelligence 
Committees  the  next  day  yourself;  is  that  correct? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    It  was  during  this  meeting  an  issue  arose  as  to 
what  was  contained  in  the  shipment  in  November,  am  I  correct? 

A    Well,  the  issue  was  not  so  much  what  was  contained 
in  the  shipment. 

Q    As  to  what  you  knew  was  contained? 

A    What  we  knew  was  contained  and  our  prior  know- 
ledge. 

Q    Do  you  recall  North  saying  at  that  meeting  that 
no  one  in  the  United  States  Government  knew  that  there  were 
Hawks  in  that  shipment? 

A    I  don't  recall  that  specifically. 

Q    Was  a  decision  made  as  a  result  of  the  discussions 
that  were  had  on  the  20th  that  when  Casey  and  j/ou  appeared 
before  Congress  the  next  day  that  you  would  not  represent 


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\mWmr 


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to  Congress  that  you  had  no  knowledge  that  Hawks  were  in 
that  shipment? 

A    After  _ — 

MR.  SMALL:   That's  a  double  negative. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 

Q    Was  there  a  decision  reached  as  a  result  of 
those  discussions  as  to  what  you  would  say  to  Congress? 

A    Yes,  there  was. 

Q    What  was  it  that  you  agreed  upon? 

A    Actually,  I  think  I  formulated  it,  that  we  would 
say  that  there  had  been  a  shipment  by  the  Israelis  in 
November,  1985,  we  didn't  have  all  the  facts  and  when  we 
had  all  the  facts,  we  would  report  back  to  the  Congress. 
And  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  that's  what  I  told  the 
House  Intelligence  Committee  and  Senators  Leahy  and 
Durenberger . 

Q    If  the  Members  of  both  the  House  and  the  Senate 
committee  said  that  you  told  them  that  you  did  not  know 
until  January  of  1986  that  Hawks  were  contained,  they  would 
be  wrong? 

A    I  think  they  would  be  wrong.   I'm  very  comfortable 
with  that. 

Q    And  have  you  had  occasion  to  read  the  memorandum 
of  Mr.  Newsom,  which  I  think  was  provided  to  ya\i,  of  your 


meeting  with  the 


S.Qnst^  commi  ttee  ? 


1495 


uBflSSMIIP* 


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A    No,  I  haven't  seen  that. 

Q    We  are  going  to  let  you  see  it.   It  was  in  the 
papers,  but  there  were  a  lot  of  papers,  and  I  think  you 
ought  to  see  it  before  your  appearance. 

A    Who  was  Newsom? 

Q    He  was  a  staff  member  of  the  Senate  committee. 

And  there  is  apparently  a  similar  memo  from  the  House 

committee. 

MR.  BECKLER:   They  were  taking  notes? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Apparently.   He  said,  "Poindexter  said 

he  learned  in  January,  1986,  that  Israel  had  sent  18  Hawk 

missiles  to  Iran  on  November  25,  1985,  without  U.S.  approval. 

He  told  the  Israelis  the  missiles  had  to  be  returned  from 

Iran  and  they  were  returned  in  February.   It  is  unclear 

whether  there  was  prior  knowledge  by  any  U.S.  official  of 

that  shipment.   Poindexter  said  he  was  looking  into  that 

question  right  now.   He  did  not  know  the  details  of  that 

shipment." 

MR.  BECKLER:   Could  I  see  the  — 

MR.  LIMAN:   You  can  see  it. 
» 

MR.  BECKLER:   Can  we  see  the  full  text? 

MR.  LIMAN;   Here  it  is. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Who  was  Mr.  Newsom? 

MR.  LIMAN:   A  member  of  the  staff  of  .'the  Senate 

committee,  was  at  that  time. 


UNGUUiSiriED 


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MR.  BECKLER:   This  was  prepared  when?   On  November 
28,  seven  days  after  the  —  I'm  just  trying  to  get  it  straight 
here.   These  were  not  notes  taken  at  the  meeting. 

MR.  LIMAN:  Don't  tell  me  it  wasn't  notes  taken 
at  the  meeting.  Obviously  they  didn't  sit  there  and  type 
it  at  the  meeting. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  read  the  whole  thing. 

MR.  LIMAN:   I  was  directing  his  attention  to  a 
particular  paragraph. 

MR.  BECKLER:   We  are  going  to  read  the  whole 
thing . 

MR.  LIMAN:   You  can  read  it  if  you  want. 

MR.  LEON:  We  had  an  understanding  at  3:30.  It 
is  now  a  quarter  of  4:00. 

MR.  LIMAN:   You  see  what  we  are  going  through. 
I  think  we  ought  to  postpone  your  examination  in  the  next 
building. 

MR.  LEON:   How  about  6:00? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Is  it  the  person  I  think  it  is? 

MR.  LEON:   I  think  it  is. 


MR.  LIMAN:  At  this  point,  you  might  as  well 
postpone  it  until  6:00. 

(Recess.) 

THE  WITNESS:  This  does  not  —  I  simply 'just 
don't  recall  providing  that  much  detail  on  that  issue. 


UNCLASSIFIED 


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MSSSffHT 


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We  were  clearly  uncertain  on  the  2cf.   i  simply  don't  recall 
it. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    You  don't  recall  it? 

A    I'm  curious,  did  Mr.  McMahon  make  any  notes, 
Bernie  McMahon? 

MR.  LEON:   Let's  find  out  what  his  position  was 
at  the  time. 

THE  WITNESS;   Bernie  McMahon,  Majority  Staff 
Director. 

MR.  LEON:   Why  don't  you  inform  the  record  as 
to  who  he  was  and  the  fact  he  was  there. 

THE  WITNESS:   He  was  the  Majority  Staff  Director. 
I  was  curious  whether  he  had  any  confirming  notes .   I 
simply  don't  recall  saying  it  that  way. 

MR.  KAPLAN:   My  understanding  is  that  Mr.  McMahon 
made  some  notes  but  those  notes  were  never  memorialized 
into  the  form  of  a  staff  memorandum. 

MR.  SMALL:   Do  the  notes  exist? 

MR.  KAPLAN:   I'm  not  sure  of  that. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Maybe  I  should  say,  so  it  is 
clear  to  you,  that  there  are  two  memoranda  here  —  there  are 
two  memoranda  prepared  following  your  presentation  to  the 
House"  Committee  on  Intelligence.   I  would  represent  to 
you  the  information  in  those  memoranda  is  substantially  the 


iiMjissra 


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77 


same  on  this  issue  as  reflected  in  rxTubit  58,  although  I 
think  the  memoranda  show  that  your  discussion  of  the  November 
'85  shipment  was  at  the  very  end  of  your  presentation  before 
HPSCI.   I  can  make  those  available  to  you. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  would  like  to  see  those.   I  tried 
very  hard  to  ^recall  precisely  what  I  said  in  those  briefings. 

MR.  LEON:   They  were  prepared  by  staff  present 
for  the  HPSCI  briefing  that  morning. 

THE  WITNESS:   As  I  testified  before,  my  recollec- 
tion in  November  of  '86  of  events  of  November,  '85,  was 
very,  very  fuzzy. 

BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    If  this  memorandum  is  correct,  you  said  that  you 
learned  in  January,  '86,  that  the  18  Hawks  were  sent.   Was 
that  your  recollection  on  November  21? 

A    It  was  unclear  at  that  point  because  I  was  faced 
with  the  problem  of  two  people  that  were  directly  involved 
in  the  November  shipment  having  different  recollections  of 
events.   We  had  Bud  McFarlane  saying  one  thing  and  Secretary 
Shultz  saying  something  else . 

My  best  recollection  is  at  that  point  that  I  did 
not  remember  anything  about,  or  know  anything  about  the 
Hawks  until  January,  '86. 

Now,  since  that  time  and  the  preparation  and 
reviewing  PROFs  notes,  it  is  clear  that  I  did  know  in 

\\m  A<i^iFiFn 


I 


1499 


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UNHIBSIFIBP^ 


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November,  '85,  but  I  did  not  remember  that  in  November  of 
■86. 

Q    That  is  your  position? 

A    That's  my  position. 

Q    The  last  thing,  Admiral,  which  is  ~  I'll  end  with 
where  we  ended  last  time.  Exhibit  40,  which  was  your  notes 
of  January  7,  1986,  and  which  refers  to  a  discussion  that 
you  had  or  list  you  made.   Do  you  want  to  translate  that 
for  us,  sir. 

MR.  LEON:   Arthur,  if  I  may  note  for  the  record 
that  —  you  are  right,  it  is  Exhibit  40. 

THE  WITNESS:   These  are  —  there  are  two  major 
items  I  discussed  with  the  President  that  morning.   One  was 
the  hostage  situation  and  the  other  was  the  status  of  -- 
although  I  have  hostages,  it  really  refers  to  the  Iranian 
project,  and  Shultz  and  Weinberger  were  in  disagreement 
with  the  proposal  to  go  ahead  for  two  reasons.   They  opposed 
any  deals  for  hostages  and  they  were  opposed  to  arms  to 
Iran. 

The  next  item  means  that  Casey  and  Meese  thought 
the  President  should  go  ahead,  and  the  last  note  means  that 
Shultz  had  asked  for  a  meeting  with  the  President  about  it 
and  it  was  at  that  meeting  that  the  President  agreed  he  had 
an  open  spot  on  his  schedule  around  lunchtime,  ;and  so  he 
agreed  to  meet  with  his  National  Security  Advisers  at  that 


IINHI  h^mu 


1500 


mXWfW 


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time,  which  I  think  was  around  11:30  or  something  like  that. 
And  the  second  page  is  a  list  that  I  made  up  for  my  secretary 
of  people  to  invite  to  the  meeting. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Where  it  says  "Shultz  and  Weinberger," 
was  that  reporting  to  the  President  what  their  position  was? 
t::2  WITNESS:   Yes,  which  he  well  understood. 
BY  MR.  LIMAN: 
Q    As  a  result  of  your  reporting  what  their  position 
was,  the  meeting  was  arranged  that  is  reflected  on  the 
next  page? 

A    That's  correct. 


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Q  The  last  question:  Was  there  any  discussion  to 
your  knowledge  with  the  Iranians  about  oil  prices  as  part 
of  this  initiative? 

A    I  don't  recall  anything  about  oil  prices. 
MR.  LIMAN:   Leon. 
MR.  LEON:   Thank  you,  Mr.  Liman. 
EXAMINATION  ON  BEHALF  OF  THE 
HOUSE  SELECT  COMMITTEE 
BY  MR.  LEON: 
Q    Let  me  pick  up  just  about  where  you  left  off  on 
that  Friday  morning  discussion  with  the  HPSCI  committee. 
Those  documents,  as  Mr.  Eggleston  indicated,  you  will  have 
made  available  to  you  to  review. 

Do  you  recall  during  that  briefing  informing 
the  HPSCI  members  that  morning,  you  had  just  learned  the 
day  before  that  someone  in  the  U.S.  Government  might  have 
known  about  the  Hawks  being  part  of .the  shipment  before 
January? 

A    I  don't  recall  saying  that. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Do  you  have  any  notes,  , counsel 
MR.  LEON:   I  don't  have  them  with  me. 


IINPLA^^SIEIEII 


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MR.  BECKLER:   Do  you  have  a  recollection  of  some 
note  that  says  he  said  that? 

MR.  LEON:   My  recollection  is  that  it  is  contained 
in  the  notes,  but  you  will  see  the  notes  and  you  will  have 
a  chance  to  review  them. 

MR.  SMALL:   It  was  that  — 

MR.  LEON:   Words  to  that  effect. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Words  to  the  effect  Admiral 
Poindexter  had  heard  the  day  before  someone  in  the  U.S. 
Government  -- 

MR.  LEON:   That  he  had  just  learned  the  day 
before  that  someone  in  the  U.S.  Government  might  have  known 
before  January,  '86,  they  were  actually  Hawks. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Is  that  the  same  notes  Mr.  Eggleston 
is  referring  to?   This  doesn't  say  that. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   It  is  the  Seune  general  treatment. 
It  seems  to  me  we  should  not  discuss  what  may  or  may  not 
be  in  notes.   I  was  giving  you  a  general  representation  it 
is  treated  the  same  way. 

We'll  give  you  an  opportunity  to  see  them. 

MR.  BECKLER:   It  would  be  very  helpful.   I 
wouldn't  mind  seeing  the  full  text.   Everybody  in  the  world 
has  had  a  crack  at  the  full  text  except  the  man  answering 
the  questions.   There  are  40  people  out  there  ^xomping  things 
into  computers  th^t  ^dX*  b^^^CUfff^^  everything  in  the 


m 


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lINftHSW* 


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world,  except  my  client. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Your  client  is  not  the  National 
Security  Adviser.   Your  client  chose  to  invoke  his  consti- 
tutional privileges  and  as  a  result,  as  a  result  of  his  not 
cooperating  with  the  NSC,  they  apparently  didn't  cooperate 
with  him. 

MR.  BECKLER:   My  client  is  involved  in  a  civil 
deposition  and  has  a  right  to  see  relevant  documents  he  is 
being  questioned  about.   It  has  nothing  to  do  with  whether 
or  not  he  asserted  the  Fifth  Amendment. 

MR.  LIMAN:   Under  what  rules  of  the  House  or 
Senate  does  he  have  a  right  to  see  documents  before  he  is 
examined? 

MR.  BECKLER:   When  a  third  party  provides  docu- 
ments to  one  side  and  not  the  other  —  this  is  a  civil 
matter. 

MR.  LIMAN:   This  is  not  a  civil  litigation. 
This  is  an  investigation  by  the  United  States  Congress 
pursuant  to  its  constitutional  powers  and  statutory  powers. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Right.   And  this  man  has  a  right 
to  see  the  documents  the  other  side  has  been  shown  and 
reviewed  — 

MR.  LEON:   1  think  it  was  probably  oversight  on 
my  part  I  didn't  bring  them  here  today.   And  pifqbably  also, 
I  assure  you  you  will  have  available  to  you  both  of  those 


liNni  A<;<!ira 


1504 


HBfRSSflB* 


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notes  from  the  two  different  staff  members  who  took  them  to 
review  as  soon  as  we  can  get  them  to  you.   We  should  be  able 
to  get  them  to  yo^i  in  some  form  or  another  within  a  matter 
of  days.   I  assure  you  you  will  have  those. 

I  just  took  the  opportunity  to  ask  with  regard 
to  that  very  specific  section  because  of  the  possibility 
that  I  recognize,  and  I  don't  think  I'm  alone,  there  might 
not  be  another  deposition  after  today,  and  I  thought  I 
might  be  remiss  if  I  didn't  take  the  opportunity  to  ask 
about  that  one  specific  section.   That's  all  I'm  going  to 
ask  about  that.   I'm  going  to  move  on  to  something  else. 
I  don't  want  to  belabor  the  point.   I  have  another  depo- 
sition ahead  of  me. 

BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q    With  regard  to  the  weekend's  events,  that  weekend 
in  November,  1986,  to  the  extent  that  you  have  any  knowledge, 
with  regard  to  Friday,  the  21st,  on  that  morning,  the  Attorney 
General,  as  Mr.  Cooper  testified  last  week,  met  with  the 
President  and  Donald  Regan,  and  asked  for  authority  to 
commence  an  investigation. 

At  some  point  after  that,  I  believe  Mr.  Cooper 
testified  that  the  Attorney  General  met  with  you.   Do  you 
recall  meeting  with  the  Attorney  General  that  morning? 

A    Yes.   But  the  sequence  he  gave  was  not   /ight 
by  my  recollection. 


ONcussra 


1505 


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Q    All  right. 

A    After  I  had  finished  briefing  Senators  Durenberger 
and  Leahy,  Ed  Meese  called  me  and  said  that  he  wanted  to 
meet  with  the  President  at  11:30,  and  because  I  had  been 
tied  up,  he  had  arranged  that  meeting  through  Donald  Regan, 
and  he  wanted  me  and  Don  to  be  there.   So  the  three  of  us 
met  with  the  President  at  11:30,  and  the  Attorney  General 
called  me  sometime  after  lunch,  early  to  mid  afternoon, 
and  asked  that  I  have  the  relevant  documents  pulled  together 
and  he  wanted  to  send  over  a  couple  of  his  assistants. 

Q    Do  you  have  any  knowledge  whether  the  Attorney 
General  on  that  morning  met  with  Colonel  North  at  any  time? 

A    The  21st? 

Q    Yes. 

A    I  don't  think  so. 

Q    Do  you  have  any  reason  to  think  -- 

A    He  could  have.   I  just  don't  think  I  know  about 
it. 

Q    Do  you  have  any  knowledge  of  him  meeting  with 
the  Attorney  General,  Colonel  North  meeting  with  the 
Attorney  General  any  time  later  that  day? 

A    I  don't  believe  so. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  ever  indicate  to  you,  or  did 
anybody  else  indicate  to  you  that  Colonel  North  had  requestec 
from  the  Attorney  General  a  24-  to  48-hour  period  in  which 


ev  General  a  ^i-  to  '»o-nt 

flMPUWIFIFn 


1506 


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to  get  his  documents  in  order? 

A    I'm  not  aware  of  that. 

Q    And  after  the  Attorney  General  interviewed  Colonel 
North  Sunday  evening,  you  testified  Colonel  North  spoke  to 
you? 

A    Right. 

Q    And  of  course  he  informed  you  that  the  diversion 
memo,  he  had  been  questioned  about  that? 

A    Right. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  on  that  occasion  indicate  to 
you  in  any  words  or  words  to  the  effect  that  after  he  had 
been  presented  with  the  diversion  memo,  he  had  said  to  the 
Attorney  General  words  to  the  effect,  "Does  this  count?   I 
haven't  been  given  my  rights"? 

A    I  don't  think  I  knew  that. 

Q    Well,  do  you  know  if  that  happened?   Do  you  have 
any  knowledge  that  happened? 

A    I  don't  have  any  knowledge  that  happened. 

Q    Had  he  ever  commented  to  you  along  those  lines 
thereafter? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Show  the  consultation. 
MR.  BECKLER:   What  is  that? 
MR.  LIMAN:   I  said  show  the  consultation. 
MR.  BECKLER:   I  have  a  continuing  objection. 
I  would  ask  that  be  removed  from  the  record,  too. 


liiyniE^JFipn 


1507 


21 


IWffiBBflW 


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MR.  LIMAN:   I  didn't  show  it  every  time  you 
consulted. 

MR.  BECKLER:   What  is  the  criteria  to  first 
reflect  it  and  then  not  reflect  it? 

MR.  LIMAN:   Because  you  have  asked  that  we  not, 
and  I  told  you,  and  I  thought  you  had  agreed,  that  it  would 
be  where  it  seemed  appropriate. 

A  question  was  put  which  he  could  have  answered 
or  not  answered,  and  he  chose  to  consult  with  you.   He 
either  has  a  recollection  or  he  doesn't  have  a  recollection. 
I  don't  think  you  were  there.   It  just  seems  to  me  it  was 
appropriate  to  reflect  the  fact  that  he  needed  consultation 
on  this  issue. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  think  it  is  appropriate  to  reflect 
this  is  nothing  more  than  Mr.  Liman's  attempt  to  chill 
this  witness's  testimony  — 

MR.  LIMAN:   It  has  succeeded. 

MR.  BECKLER:   That  doesn't  minimize  your 
attempts.   We  are  going  to  step  outside  to  confer. 

(The  witness  and  his  counsel  leave  the  room.) 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let  me  state  something  for  the 
record.   First  of  all,  Mr.  Liman,  to  make  a  presumption 
that  just  because  an  examiner  says,  do  you  recollect 
something,  that  because  my  client  turns  to  me  and  asks  to 
counsel  with  me,  he  is  asking  me  whether  I  can  help  him 

iiMPi  Accinrn 


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in  his  recollection,  is  beyond  the  pale.   And  to  refer 
sarcastically  you  weren't  there,  you  weren't  there,  is  out 
of  line. 

I  want  that  on  the  record.   It  is  a  continuing 
exhibition  in  which  this  committee  has  badgersd  this  witness 
and  the  way  this  committee  is  being  used  as  a  tool  of  the 
Independent  Counsel  to  set  up  somebody  — 

MR.  LEON:   Which  committee? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Specifically,  Mr.  Liman. 

Unfortunately,  as  I  said  before,  everybody  in 
this  room  is  in  one  way  or  another  being  utilized  by  the 
Independent  Counsel  because  of  their  continuing  reluctance 
to  give  us  documents  in  an  appropriate  amount  of  time  so 
we  can  prepare  my  client  for  a  civil  deposition. 

MR.  LIMAN:   What  is  the  document  you  needed  in 
order  to  answer  the  last  question? 

MR.  LEON:   I  would  like  you  two  to  resolve  this 
off  the  record.   I  have  another  deposition  to  attend. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  have  the  question  read  back. 

MR.  LEON:   Arthur  — 

THE  WITNESS:   Would  you  repeat  the  question? 

MR.  LEON:   I  will  try.   I  don't  know  if  I  can 
repeat  it  from  memory,  but  the  substance  of  the  last 
question  was  whether  or  not,  after  the  evening  of ^ the  23rd, 
after  that  convef§it^.^i^  you  had  with  Colonel  North  that 


llliClffim 


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evening,  did  he  or  anyone  else  at  any  time  thereafter 
indicate  that  -- 

MR.  BECKLER:   He  being  North. 

MR.  LEON:   Right.   Indicate  to  you  that  North 
had  made  a  statement  to  the  Attorney  General  in  his  inter- 
view on  Sunday  afternoon  to  the  effect,  "Does  this  count? 
I  haven't  been  given  my  legal  rights"? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  recall  that. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 
Q    When  you  met  with  the  Attorney  General  on  Monday 
morning,  the  24th,  you  met  with  him  alone,  correct? 
A    Yes. 

Q    Do  you  know  if  when  you  met  with  him  he  had  already 
met  with  Robert  McFarlane? 

MR.  LIMAN:   That  day? 
MR.  LEON:   That  morning,  yes. 
THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  know  that. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 
Q    Do  you  know  if  he  had  met  that  m.orning  with 
President  Reagan? 

A    1   am   not  sure  of  that.   He  had  been  in  my  office 
earlier  in  the  day,  while  I  was  tied  up  with  Senators,  and 
my  secretaries  reported  to  me  they  asked  him  if  he  wanted 
them  to  interrupt  and  he  said,  "No,  I'll  come  bfick  later." 
He  was  in  the  Whi^tklicuLV-.  X  don't  know  who  he  was  seeing. 


1510 


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We  finally  did  get  together  sometime  before  lunch, 
as  I  recall.   I  don't  know  why  he  was  there. 

Q    Do  you  recall  if  he  reported  to  you  when  you 
met  with  him  that  he  had  already  spoken  with  the  President? 

A    I  don't  recall  his  saying  that. 

Q    Do  you  recall  if  he  told  you  that  Bud  McFarlane 
had  confirmed  having  knowledge  of  the  diversion? 

A    I  don't  recall  his  saying  that.   It  was  a  very 
slow  conversation. 

Q    Recount  the  conversation  as  best  you  can  recall. 

A    Well,  my  recollection  is  that  his  main  objective 
was  to  find  out  if  I  was  aware  of  the  diversion.   And  I  told 
him  I  was  generally. 

Q    Were  you  in  contact  with  Commander  Thompson  on 
Monday  morning,  the  24th? 

A    I'm  sure  I  was.   He  was  sitting  right  outside 
my  office. 

Q    Did  Commander  Thompson  bring  to  your  attention 
that  Monday,  or  any  time  prior  to  that,  that  on  the  previous 
Saturday  afternoon,  November  22,  he  had  been  over  in 
Colonel  North's  office  after  Attorney  Meese's  designees 
had  been  there  reviewing  documents  and  that  he  saw  Colonel 
North  assembling  documents  to  take  with  him  over  to  the 
White  House  Situation  Room?  .' 


A    I  don't  believe  he  reported  that. 

iiMPiACQincn 


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Q    Were  you  aware  on  Monday  morning  the  24th  that 
Thompson  had  been  in  on  Saturday? 

A    Yes.   We  were  both  in  on  Saturday. 

Q    Did  he  give  you  any  kind  of  a  briefing,  do  you 
recall,  Admiral,  about  what  he  had  observed  taking  place 
Saturday  with  regard  to  the  Attorney  General's  representa- 
tives? 

A    Yes.   As  I  recall,  in  fact,  I  think  I  probably 
asked  him  if  the  Attorney  General's  people  had  come  over. 
He  said,  "Yes,  they  were  busily  going  through  all  the  files 
over  in  Colonel  North's  office." 

Q    Do  you  remember  anything  else  about  that  briefing? 

A    No. 

Q    I  assume  it  was  an  oral  briefing? 

A    Yes. 

Q    You  didn't  take  any  notes,  did  you? 

A    No. 

Q    So  he  hadn't  expressed  any  concern  that  North 
taking  the  documents  out  of  his  office  over  to  the  White 
House  Situation  Room  might  be  a  problem? 

A    I  don't  recall  that.   I  had  called  Commander 
Thompson  on  Friday  after  the  Attorney  General  called  me, 
and  I  told  him  to  supervise  the  pulling  together,  or  to 
arrange  to  have  the  documents  pulled  together.  '  > 

Q    Now,  with  regard  to  the  August  8,  I  think  it  was 

iiMoi  Aooincn 


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August  8,  appearance  that  Colonel  North  had  before  the  HPSCI 
committee,  can  you  recall,  Admiral,  any  attempts  on  Colonel 
North's  part  prior  to  that  day  to  get  in  touch  with  you  in 
order  to  review  with  you  what  he  would  be  testifying  on  in 
his  upcoming  appearance  before  HPSCI? 

A    I  don't  recall  that. 

Q    Do  you  recall  him  at  any  time  after  he  appeared 
before  HPSCI  indicating  to  you  or  anyone  else  that  he  was 
upset  that  he  had  been  unable  to  meet  with  you  before  he 
appeared  before  HPSCI  to  get  some  guidance  from  you  as  to 
what  he  should  tell  them? 

A    I  don't  think  I'm  aware  of  that.   I  was  very 
busy,  as  I  always  was. 

Q    In  that  August  timeframe? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Were  you  on  vacation  by  any  chance  in  that 
August  time  frame? 

A    Yes.   In  fact,  I  was  on  my  week's  vacation  the 
week  that  he  met  with  them. 

Q    And  you  don't  recall  any  efforts  of  him  trying 
to  reach  you  before  you  went  on  vacation  or  even  while  you 
were  on  vacation? 

A    He  may  have,  but  I  don't  think  it  came  to  my 
attention.   I  had  a  very  protective  outer  office. 

Q    Had  it  been  indicated  to  you  that's  why  he  wanted 


iinmiQEa 


1513 


WBHWH'^ 


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to  meet  with  you  and  talk  with  you  — 

A    I  probably  would  have  met  with  him. 

Q    Now,  on  the  20th,  the  meeting  on  the  20th  of 
November  with  yourself  and  Director  Casey  and  the  Attorney 
General  and  others,  there  was  testimony  last  week  by 
Mr.  Cooper  that  Ollie  suggested  a  particular  insertion  with 
regard  to  -- 

A    I  read  Mr.  Cooper's  transcript. 

Q    Did  you  in  any  way  suggest  to  him.  Colonel  North, 
that  he  should  make  that  insertion? 

A    No. 

Q    Were  you  aware  prior  to  his  making  it  that  he  was 
going  to  suggest  it? 

A    I  don't  believe  so. 

Q    And  it  is  your  testimony  that  upon  his  making  it 
at  that  time  you  believed  it  was  accurate? 

A    No,  I  didn't  say  that. 

Q    Tell  us,  if  you  will. 

A    I  was  unsure  of  what  the  facts  were  at  that 
point,  and  I  knew  that  he  had  been  in  contact  with  Mr. 
McFarlane,  as  I  had  asked  him  to  be,  and  I  don't  think 
I  had  a  chance  to  meet  with  him  that  day  or  just  prior 
to  the  meeting. 

As  I  recall.  Colonel  North  came  in  latpy,  after 
we  had  gotten  started;  and  in  front  of  all  those  people, 

IIMPI  Accinrn 


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I  was  not  going  to  raise  that  issue.   We  had  been  concerned 
for  some  days  at  that  point  that  Mr.  McFarlane  was  not 
remembering  what  the  circumstances  were  in  Geneva. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  doubt  in  your  mind  as  to  the 
accuracy  of  what  Colonel  North  was  suggesting? 

A    You  know,  I  don't  --  Chuck  Cooper  mentioned  that 


there  was  an  inserti^ TJiaffJout .   I  don't  recall  that  insert. 
In  fact,  his  whole  description  of  what  Colonel  North 
prepared  is  not  clear  in  my  mind. 

MR.  LIMAN:   What  does  that  mean,  not  clear  in 
your, mind?   You  don't  recall  it  that  way? 

THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  recall  it.   I  simply  -- 
he  made  a  big  issue  in  his  testimony  about  Colonel  North 
doing  — 

MR.  LEON:   It  was  an  exhibit. 

THE  WITNESS:   —  of  introducing  that  insert,  and 
I  simply  don't  remember  that. 

BY  MR.  LEON: 
Q    His  testimony  was  it  was  a  CIA-proposed  insert 
in  the  testimony  and  that  during  the  course  of  reviewing 
it.  Colonel  North  made  a  proposal  that  was  penned  in  with 
regard  to  a  certain  portion  of  it,  that  is,  as  to  the  know- 
ledge of  the  CIA,  who  was  preparing  a  change  to  that  from 
the  no  CIA  knowledge  prior  to  January  to  no  one  .'in  the  U.S. 
Government.   That  doesn't  ring  any  bells? 


\mi  .^ccicirn 


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uNllLMIt'lf '  "■ 

A    You  know,  it  may  very  well  have  happened  that  way. 
I  don't  remember  an  insert  being  discussed. 

Q  Can  you  tell  us  why  it  was  that  Peter  Wallison 
hadn't  been  invited  to  that  meeting?  That's  the  counsel 
to  the  President. 

A    Because  at  this  point,  the  whole  issue,  as  far  as 
I  was  concerned,  was  a  political  issue;  it  was  not  a  legal 
issue.   And  with  the  exception  of  one  point,  and  that  was 
the  primary  reason  in  my  mind  the  Attorney  General  was  there, 
and  that  was  to  address  the  question  of  the  President's 
exercising  his  constitutional  authority  or  what  we  felt  was 
his  statutory  authority  tinder  the  Hughes-Ryan  Amendment  to 
delay  notification  until  after  the  fact,  to  do  it  in  a 
timely  way.   We  knew  that  was  going  to  be  a  controversial 
issue  because  Members  of  Congress  had  already  indicated 
they  were  annoyed  they  hadn't  been  notified. 

As  I  testified  before,  Ed  Meese  had  offered  to, 
as  we  were  getting  ready  to  debrief  the  committees  on  the 
Hill,  he  had  offered  to  be  of  whatever  assistance  that  I 
needed. 

Q    The  morning  of  the  20th? 

A    No,  he  made  that  offer  long  before  that.   It  was 
earlier  in  the  month;  I  don't  remember  exactly  when.   And 
in  the  week  leading  up  to  the  20th,  I  had  had  a 'cpuple  of 
conversations  with  the  Attorney  General,  and  when  he  came 

iiiioi  ROoiFirn 


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and  participated  in  the  meeting,  my  understanding  of  his 
main  contribution  would  be  on  the  question  of  giving  Bill 
Casey  enough  ammunition  to  refute  any  contention  that  the 
President  didn't  have  the  authority  to  withhold  notifica- 
tion. 

Q    Is  that  the  end  of  your  answer? 

A    I  think  I  answered  your  question.   Didn't  I? 

Q    I  think  you  have  answered  it. 

Were  you  under  the  impression  the  Attorney  General 
was  there  in  part  as  a  reaction  to  the  President^ 
the  night  before? 

A    I  don't  think  I  was  aware  of  that.   In  fact  — 

Q    Had  he  indicated  that  to  you  in  any  way? 

A    He  had  not  indicated  that  to  me. 

Q    So  it  is  your  testimony  Mr.  Wallison's  absence 
wasn't  a  conscious  effort  to  keep  out  or  freeze  out  the 
White  House  counsel's  office? 

A    It  wasn't  a  conscious  effort.   It  is  just  the 
counsel  to  the  President,  even  before  Peter  Wallison's 
time,  did  not  get  involved  in  finance. 

Q    Chuck  Cooper  testified  Wallison  expressed  to 
both  Thompson  and  Cooper  how  upset  he  was  he  hadn't  been 
invited  to  that  meeting.   Did  Commander  Thompson  relay 
that  back  to  you?  •  , 

A    Probably.   I  knew  Peter  Wallison  had  been  wanting 

IIMPIil  OOinrn 


1517 


iHBBSfflr 


96 


to  get  into  the  issue  earlier  that  month. 

Q    Cooper  also  testified  that  during  that  period 
of  meeting  that  afternoon.  Judge  Sofaer  from  the  State 
Department  contacted  Wallison  and  Cooper  with  regard  to  a 
potential  conflict  that  he  saw  between  Shultz  and  McFarlane, 
and  I'n  sure  you  ar*  aware  of  that  testinony  — 

A    Yes. 

Q    Was  it  relayed  to  you  that  afternoon  by  anyone 
about  this  potential  conflict? 

A    Yes.  In  fact,  my   recollection  is  that  I  knew 
about  that  conflict  before  that  time,  but  it  nay  not  have 
been  until  th«n. 

0    Well,  let  ID*  take  you  back  to  that  time.  In 
lata  Novenbar,  198S,  I  believe  you  recall  Mr.  Coopar's 
testimony  probably  that  thay  intervia%«ad  Sacratary  Shultz. 
Nit.  LINMIt   Lata  '86  or  '8S? 

MR.  LEOMt   I'm  90in9  to  get  to  an  event  in  late 
•85. 

n   MR.  LCGMi 

Q    Whan  they  intarviawad  Secretary  Shulta  on 
November  22,  ha  had  iadicatad  that  ha  had  a  conversation 
with  NcFarlana  in  lata  'SS,  NovoyMr,  '8S,  at  which  time 
McFarlane  indicated  to  him  that  there  ware  Hawk  missiles 
about  to  be  shipped,  and,  according  to  Hr.  Coopdr's 
recollection,  Shultx  indicated  in  that  interview  that  he 


IIMAI  ICCinrn 


1518 


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expressed  his  concern  and  being  upset  with  that  decision 
to  McFarlane.   Back  then,  in  '85,  November  of  '85,  did 
Bud  McFarlane  ever  inform  you  Shultz  had  been  upset  with 
the  upcoming  Hawk  shipment? 

A    Not  that  I  can  recall. 

Q    Do  you  ever  recall  — 

A    They  were  both  in  Geneva;  I  was  in  Washington. 

Q    That's  right.   Do  you  recall  talking  to  Mr. 
McFarlane  at  any  time  after  that  November,  '85,  period 
about  Secretary  Shultz 's  reaction  to  learning  about  the 
upcoming  Hawk  shipment? 

A    Other  than  from  —  I  think  the  first  time  that 
I  had  any  discussion  with  Secretary  Shultz  on  this  subject 
was  in  early  December  of  '85.   I  don't  recall  Mr.  McFarlane  - 
he  may  have  told  me  that,  because  I  knew  Secretary  Shultz 
was  not  in  favor  of  the  jiaViiiilfe  initiative  when  we  went  into 
the  meeting  on  the  7th  of  December.   When  Mr.  McFarlane 
told  me  that,  I'm  not  sure. 

Q  Do  you  have  any  recollection  at  that  meeting  of 
Secretary  Shultz  informing  the  President  on  that  occasion 
that  he  had  been  upset  with  the  Hawk  shipment? 

A    I  don't  recall.   I  don't  recall  the  HawJts  being 
discussed  in  that  7  December,  '85,  meeting. 
(Recess. ) 


UNCLASSIFIED 


1519 


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BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q    Do  you  recall  Secretary  Weinberger  at  that 
meeting  expressing  concerns  about  legality  of  future  ship- 
ments? 

A    Yes,  I  do. 

Q    Did  he  voice  them  to  your  knowledge  strongly? 

A    Yes,  he  did.   Both  he  and  Secretary  Shultz 
both  opposed  the  plan  strongly. 

Q    The  AG  wasn't  present  at  that  meeting,  was  he? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Was  there  any  discussion  the  AG  should  be 
brought  in  on  that  issue? 

A    There  was  no  discussion  of  it.   But  on  reflection, 
he  should  have  been.   I  subsequently  did  bring  him  in  on 
the  issue. 

Q    Now,  you  testified,  as  1  recall  it,  and  you 
correct  me  if  I  am  wrong  — 

A    Excuse  me.   With  hindsight,  it  is  not  clear  that 
we  should  have  recognized  before  the  7  December  meeting 
the  Attorney  General  should  have  been  there  because  it 
wasn't  clear  there  was  a  legal  issue  until  that  meeting. 

Q    You  testified,  as  I  recall  it  anyway,  that  you 
were  unsatisfied  with  the  November  26th  Finding-  even 
though  you  had  it  signed?   Is  that  accurate?   > 

A    That's  correct.   And,  again,  I  cannot  'recall  the 


1520 


UNHRSSIflW* 


99 


circumstances  of  the  signing,   i  was  unsatisfied  with  that. 

Q    And  I  believe  you  have  already  testified,  and 
correct  me  if  I'm  wrong,  that  you  asked  Colonel  North  at 
some  point  after  it  was  signed  to  go  to  the  AG  at  some 
point  and  get  a  better  draft  put  together.   Is  that 
correct? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Now,  the  AG  was  involved  with  regard  to  the 
January  Finding,  was  he  not? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    Do  you  have  any  knowledge  as  to  whether  or  not 
the  AG  was  ever  presented  with  the  November  26th  Finding 
that  was  signed  with  an  eye  towards  having  him  or  his 
people  put  together  a  better  version  of  that? 

A    I  didn't.   I  don't  know  whether  it  came   to  his 
attention  in  any  other  way  or  not. 

Q    Do  you  remember  seeing  here  on  an  earlier 
occasion  exhibit,  let  me  hand  you  my  copy  to  refresh  your 
recollection.  Exhibit  38,  which  includes  in  it  the 
January  3rd  Finding,  proposed  Finding  I  should  say?   Do 
you  remember  seeing  that  in  your  deposition  before? 

A    Yes. 

.Q    And  I  would  ask  you  in  comparing  that,  Admiral, 
to  Exhibit  120,  the  November  26th  proposed  Finding  the 
CIA  sent  over,  in  comparing  those  two,  would  it  be  fair 


1521 


100 


to    say    that    thAXfelWlyf lUV'tt^cl^^^f'inding    that   you   have 
there   is   not,    or  doesn't   appear   to  be,    an   attempted 
revision   of    the   November    26th   Finding? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Do  you  understand  that  question? 

THE  WITNESS:   I'm  not  sure. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Does  it  appear  to  be  an  attempted 
revision?   Why  don't  you  ask  him  what  he  thinks  it  is 
rather  than  what  it  appears  to  be.   What  is  this  compared 
to  this? 

MR.  LEON:   That's  fine. 

THE  WITNESS:   The  November  26th  Finding,  the  one 
that  was  sent  to  me  under j cover  memo  dated  the  26th  of 
November,  was  a  Finding  that  was  drafted  apparently  at  the 
CIA.   I  don't  think  we  had  any  input  to  that.   It  is  a 
very  inadequate  description  of  the  Iranian  project. 

Starting  with  the  early  January  versions  of  what 
finally  culminated  in  the  17  January  Finding  is  an  attempt 
to  spell  out  in  more  detailed  terms  all  of  the  aspects 
of  the  Iranian  project. 

BY  MR.  LEON: 
Q    So.,  do  you  have  any  recollection  of  seeing 
any  attempt  by  anyone  to  revise  and  improve  on  the 
November  26th  proposed  Finding? 

A    No.   In  fact,  that  played  a  very  sm^ll  role. 

Q    Do  you  ever  recall  discussing  with  Colonel  North 

iiMOi  Accinrn 


1522 


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IS 

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as  to  why  it  was  that  he  hadn't  followed  through  on  your 
order  in  that  regard? 

A    I'm  not  sure,  order  to  — 

Q    Order  to  meet  with  the  Attorney  General  and  his 
people  and  come  up  with  an  approved  version  of  the 
November  26th  CIA  Finding. 

A    I  don't  recall  precisely  my  instructions  to 
Colonel  North,  whether  it  would  have  included  going  back 
over  this  Finding,  revising  or  starting  fresh.   I  don't 
think  that  it  would  be  fair  to  say  my  instructions  would 
have  been  that  explicit. 

Q    Let  me  shift  to  a  different  subject.   You 
remember  when  the  newspapers  leaked  the  story  in  early 
November  '86  of  Bud  McFarlane  having  been  in  Tehran? 

A    Yes. 

Q    You  remember  that? 

A    Yes. 

Q    Do  you  recall  being  informed  shortly  thereafter 
by  Colonel  North  or  Colonel  EarM-  that  the  Prime  Minister 
of  Israel  had  directed  Mr.  Nir  to  contact  Colonel  North 
with  a  message  for  the  President  to  the  effect  the 
President  should  deny  to  the  American  press  Bud  McFarlane 's 
having  been  there  or  there  had  been  any  type  of  plan 


whatsoever? 


I  don't  recall   it. 


nnmim 


1523 


Q    You  don't  recall  Colonel  North  telling  you 
about  that? 

A    You  know,  he  may  have.   It  just  doesn't  leave 
any  -- 

Q  Do  you  have  any  recollection  what  they  were 
hoping  Israel  would  do  in  reaction  to  that  news  story 
breaking? 

A    I  don't  think  I  knew  what  their  reaction  was. 
The  only  thing  I  can  recall  at  the  moment  is  what  I  have 
testified  to  this  afternoon,  that  I  was  concerned  the 
latter  part  of  November  that  the  Israelis  not  be 
surprised  when  the  transfer  of  funds  to  the  contras  came 
out.   Other  than  that,  I  don't  recall  any  otheril^ 
reaction. 

Q    When  you  informed  President  Reagan  —  I  believe 
you  testified  you  informed  him  at  one  point  about  the  air- 
strip^—  who  was  it  you  had  informed  him 
had  built  the  air  strip?   If  you  did. 

A    I  don't  recall  that  —  the  only  recollection  I 
have  of  it  is  my  note,  which  simply  means  the  only  thing 
I  can  conclude  from  it  is  that  I  told  hir 
had  agreed  to  allow  the  use  of  this  airstrip.   I  doubt 
seriously  if  we  got  into  a  discussion  of  the  details  of 
who  built  it. 

Q    Did  you  inform  him  the  CIA  had  been  involved  in 


102 


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103 


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any  way  in  assisting  in  the  building  of  that  air  strip? 
A    I  doubt  that. 

Q    Did  Colonel  North  inform  you  in  August  1986  or 
any  point  thereafter  of  the  meeting  of  Felix  Rodriguez 
with  Donald  Gregg,  the  adviser  to  the  Vice  President,  on 
August  8  of  1986? 

A    I'm  not  sure  about  that.   Color.sl  North  reported 
to  me  periodically.   I  mean,  I  can  remember  Rodriguez's 
name  coming  up  several  times.   Whether  he  informed  me  of 
that  meeting  with  Don  Gregg,  I  don't  know.   He  may  have. 
Q    Did  Don  Gregg  or  Colonel  Watson  from  the  Vice 
President's  staff  at  any  time  inform  you  of  their  meeting 
on  August  8  with  Felix  Rodriguez  and  the  follow-up  meeting 
on  August  12  with  various  members  of  the  —  various  members 
of  the  Department? 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let  me  say  at  this  point,  do  you 
have  a  whole  series  of  memos  people  informed  him  of  all 
those  things,  or  lyovPjdon ' tJ  have  anything? 

MR.  LIMAN:   He  is  not  trying  to  hurt  you. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I'm  just  asking  a  question,  Arthur. 
Thank  you.   Mr.  Leon  can  answer  for  himself. 

MR.  LEON:   Hold  it. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Is  there  any  way  we  can  shortcut 
any  of  this? 

MR.  LEON:   One  thing  at  a  time.   If  the  record  is 

IIMPI  /looinrn 


1525 


104 


going  to  reflect  Mr.  Liman's  comment  he  is  not  trying 
to  hurt  you,  the  record  should  also  reflect  my  response  to 
that,  which  is,  one,  I'm  not  here  for  the  purpose  of  trying 
to  hurt  or  help  anybody.   I'm  here  for  the  purpose  of  rep- 
resenting the  Republican  Members  of  the  House  Committee 
and  trying  to  dctczaine  certain  facts  with  regard  to  it. 

I'm  a  little  bit  disappointed  my  colleague  from 
the  Senate  would  attempt  to  characterise  what  ay  objectives 
are  in  this  deposition. 

MK.  LIMAMt   X  think  yea  misunderstood  my 
statement. 

MR.  LEOMt  Maybe  Z  did. 

MR.  LZNAX:   I  do  not  think  you  are  trying  to  hurt 
or  trap  Admiral  Poindexter. 

MR.  Ltoat     I  just  don't  have  the  time,  Z  really 
don't. 

As  to  Jlr.  Beckier'a  question,  Z  do  not  have  any 
meaorandum  relating  specif icaily  to  those  last  few 
questions.  If  X  did,  Z  would  have  certainly  produced  them 
for  your  review.  Vm  trying  to  determine  if  he  was 
informed  on  those  subjects  by  Colonel  North  or  his  deputy. 
Z'm  trying  to  determine  that. 

THE  WZTNESSt  Colonel  North  or  Bob  Earl^ 
may  have  informed  me,  Z  just  don't  remember  it^   I  remember 
hearing  about 


Rodsimiez  several  times. 


1526 


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BY   MR.    LEON: 

Q  Do  you    recall    if   Mr.    Gregg   or  Mr.    Watson   came 

to  you  and   relayed   — 

A  I   don't   recall. 

Q    Fine.   Let  me  ask  you  a  question  with  regard  to 
the  structure  of  your  office  back  in  that  time'jErame, 
1986.   Mr.  Fortier  was  working  for  you  during  that  time 
frame,  wasn't  he,  a  member  of  your  staff? 

A    Until  —  well,  he  was  in  the  office  until 
sometime  in  early  May.   Then  he  was  hospitalized  and  never 
returned  to  the  office. 

Q  Prior  to  May  of  '86,  what  responsibilities, 
if  any,  did  he  have  to  supervise  Colonel  North  in  his 
various  assignments? 

A    Well,  Mr.  Fortier. as  my  principal  deputy,  one  of 
his  major  functions  was  chairing  the  various  interagency 
groups  and  also  working  on  legislative  strategy.   In 
connection  with  legislative  strategy  for  Central  America, 
he  would  have  had  quite  a  bit  of  contact  probably  with 
Oliver  North. 

Q    Would  North  have  been  expected  to  report  to  him 
on  the  matters  — 

A    I  don't  recall  specifically  providing  any  guidance 
on  that.   I  would  not  have  been  surprised  if  h^  had,  but 
I  don't  know  that  he  did. 


\\m 


1527 


BUBBISWIIP* 


106 


Q    So  would  you  say  he  had  some  supervisory 
responsibilities  over  Colonel  North? 

A    Yes, 

Q    And  do  you  have  any  opinion  as  to  whether  or  not 
his  departure  during  that  time  frame  in  1986  affected 
your  ability  to  monitor  Colonel  North's  activities? 

A    Well,  his  departure  put  a  large  new  burden  on 
me.   Operating  without  a  deputy  was  difficult, 

Q  Were  there  any  activities  of  Colonel  North  prior 
to  Mr.  Fortier's  departure  that  Mr.  Fortier  had  brought  to 
your  attention  as  being  suspect  or  problematical? 

A    Not  that  I  can  recall, 

Q    Were  there  any  activities  of  Colonel  North  after 
Mr.  Fortier's  departure  that  you,  upon  learning  about 
after  the  fact,  wished  to  have  been  warned  of  before  they 
were  carried  out? 

MR.  BECKLER:   I'm  going  to  have  to  object.   We 
are  getting  into  the  area  of  speculation,  what  would  have 
happened  if  this  happened  and  if  it  did  and  so  on  and  so 
forth.   If  you  have  a  question,  he'll  answer  it. 

MR.  LEON:   Let's  put  it  this  way.   During  the 
tim'e' frame  from  May  of  '86  to  November  of  '86,  do  you 
recall  any  actions  on  the  part  of  Colonel  North  that  you 
learned  about  after  they  had  taken  place,  thato  you  would 
have  objected  to  and  wish  to  have  had  a  chance  to  know 


\\m  mmn 


1528 


imoycjoinrn 


107 


mlO 


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prior  to  the  fact  they  took  place? 

THE  WITNESS:   A  few  times. 

Just  to  give  you  an  example  that  comes  to  mind. 
I  was  disappointed  in  May  of  '86  for  the  Tehran  trip  they 
had  taken  any  parts  on  the  aircraft.   They  took  about  a 
third  of  the  parts  with  the  idea  being  they  were  to 
remain  in  U.S.  custody.   As  I  recall,  I  learned  about  that 
after  the  fact  and  was  not  particularly  happy  with  that. 
But  it  was  in  the  view  of  the  people  on  the  ground,  and 
my  general  policy  is  to  not  to  try  to  second-guess  the 
people  that  are  — 

BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q    Was  that  related  to  the  fact  that  you  had 
indicated  to  Colonel  North  that  you  didn't  want,  until  all 
the  hostages  were  released,  you  didn't  want  any  parts 
transferred  over  to  the  Iranians? 

A    That's  correct. 

Q    That  was  inconsistent  with  your  orders? 

A    Yes.   But  it  was  not  something  that  I  felt 
was  entirely  out  of  line.   I  would  have  preferred  it  not 
be  that  way.   The  plan  that  they  had  would  have  been 
consistent  with  my  guidance.   The  mechanics  of  doing  it  made 
them  vulnerable  to  having  them  taken  away  from  them,  which 
is  what  happened.  » 

Q    During  the  period  that  you  were  the  National 


IIMPI  Accinrn 


1529 


UNSyfiHHHbv 


108 


Security  Adviser  to  the  President,  was  it  your  opinion  ther; 
was  a  great  amount  of  pressure  on  the  White  House  to  get 
the  hostages  released? 

A    Yes. 

Q    What  were  the  various  forms  those  pressures 
arose  in? 

A    The  media  and  from  the  families. 

Q    Was  there  a  fair  aunount  of  contact  with  the 
families  themselves? 

A    Yes,  there  was. 

Q    Who  were  the  families  contacting  the  White  House 
through,  if  anyone? 

A    The  State  Department  primarily  was  in  contact 
with  the  bureaucracy  in  Washington  and  they  had  an  office 
that  was  set  up  specifically  for  that.   Ambassador 
Oakley  played  a  large  part,  and  his  deputy,  Parker  Borg. 
And  Colonel  North  handled  most  of  the  contact  with  the 
White  House  both  from  my  standpoint  and  the  President's 
standpoint  and  the  Vice  President's  standpoint. 

Q    How  were  these  pressures  brought  to  the  attention 
of  the  President? 

A    Well,  he  met  with  the  hostage  families 
individually  when  the  opportunity  presented  itself.   I 
can't  recall  he  ever  met  with  the  whole  group  at  once,  but 
he  did  meet  with  individual  families  when  he  was  traveling 


1530 


109 


and  going  to  be  in  an  area  where  they  were,  he  would 
invariably  agree  to  meet  with  them  if  they  asked. 

Q    Were  you  concerned  that  the  President's 
decisions  with  regard  to  the  Iran  Initiative  was  being 
driven  too  much  by  his  sense  of  compassion  to  get  the 
hostages  released? 

A    I  think  too  much  would  fce  too  strong  a  characteri- 
zation.  He  was  concerned  about  them  as  we  all  were. 

Q    You  didn't  feel  he  was  too  concerned? 

A    No,  I  don't  think  so. 

Q    You  didn't  see  that  as  being  the  driving  force 
behind  his  making  the  foreign  policy  decisions  he  made  in 
the  Iran  Initiative? 

A    No.   Because  he  clearly  recognized  the  strategic 
importance  of  Iran.   It  was  a  factor,  a  major  factor. 

Q    Did  you  at  any  point  come  to  the  opinion  that 
Colonel  North  was  too  close  to  the  families  of  the  hostages 
and  the  pressvues  to  get  the  hostages  released  such  that 
it  was  affecting  his  attitude  and  performance  with  regard 
to  hostage  release  projects  and  proposals? 

A    Well,  Colonel  North  is  a  very  dedicated  person 
and  once  given  a  task  he  tries  very  hard  to  carry  it  out 
to  the  best  of  his  ability.   I  think  that's  what  he  was 
doing.   I  didn't  always  agree  with  him. 

Q    Did  you  ever  caution  him  maybe  he  should  distance 

itmi  «j(*oicicn 


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himself  from  the  hostage  families  a  little  more  in  order 
he  could  be  more  objective  about  the  proposals  he  was 
working  on? 

A    I  don't  think  so. 

Q    Do  you  know  if  anyone  else  did? 

A    Could  be,  I  don't  know. 

Q    With  regard  to  Mr.  Buckley  and  the  release  of 

Mr.  Buckley  ft/  during  the  time  you  were  Mr.  McFarlane's 
■V 

deputy,  Buckley  was  a  captive  and  was  in  the  process  of 
being  tortured.   You  were  aware  of  that,  were  you  not? 

A    Right.   I'm  not  exactly  sure  at  which  point  I 
learned  he  was  tortured. 

Q    You  did  get  reports  at  some  point  he  had  been 
removed  to  Iran  and  was  undergoing  interrogation  and 
torture,  did  you  not? 

A    Yes,  we  did.   We  were  never  quite  sure  of  the 
validity  of  those  reports. 

Q    Did  you  also  receive  reports  that  were  supposedly 
tapes  of  these  torture  sessions? 

A    Yes.   I  don't  think  we  learned  that  until  after 
we  had  established  the  Iranian  channel. 

Q    To  what  extent  was  — 

A    At  some  point  we  did  learn  that. 

Q    To  the  best  of  your  recollection,  t4  what  extent 
was  the  desire  to  free  Buckley  a  principal  motivating  factor 

IIMniilooinrn 


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in  the  President's  Iran  Initiative  or  the  earlier 
shipments  in  late  August  through  November  of  1985? 

A    I  wouldn't  say  that  the  President  singled  out 
Buckley  any  more  than  the  rest  of  them. 

Q    You  didn't  view  that  as  being  a  principal  or 
driving  factor? 

A    No,  not  distinguishing  Buckley  from  the  rest  of 
them. 

Q    How  about  with  Director  Casey,  did  you  have  any 
knowledge  or  insight  as  to  the  effect  that  was  having  on 
him  from  the  point  of  view  of  proposals  he  would  make, 
suggestions  he  made  to  the  President? 

A    I  don't  know  the  answer  to  that. 

Q    With  regard  to  leaks,  you  were  obviously  during 
your  tenure  as  the  Deputy  to  Mr.  McFarlane  as  National 
Security  Adviser,  you  were  concerned  about  leaks,  were  you 
not? 

A    I  was. 

Q    Were  leaks  a  major  concern  in  general  at  the 
NSC,  not  just  your  own? 

A    Yes.   It  was  a  major  concern  with  the  President. 

Q    And  how  about  congressional  leaks,  was  that  also 
a  major  concern? 

A    What  do  you  mean  by  congressional  leaks? 

Q    Leaks  of  classified  information  by  congressional 


IIMPIlMJnrn 


1533 


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iflBWffl' 


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committees . 


MR.  BECKLER:   You  mean  confidential  information 
given  to  the  Congress  and  leaked  from  Congress  or  to 
Congress? 

MR.  LEON:   No,  leaked  from  Congress.   Was  that 
a  matter  of  concern  for  you  while  you  were  Deputy  and 
later  as  the  National  Security  Adviser  to  the  President? 
THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  —  it  was  a  concern,  but 
I  don't  want  to  single  that  out  in  proportion  with  my 
concern  for  leaks  in  general.   I  thought  leaks  came  from 
Congress  and  the  Executive  Branch. 
BY  MR.  LEON: 

Q    I  think  the  question  that  you  are  likely  to  hear, 
and  I  think  it  is  a  question  to  ask  you  now,  is  to  what 
extent  was  concern  about  leaks  from  Congress  an  influencing 
factor  in  the  President's  decision  to  not  tell  Congress 
in  November  of  '86  about  the  Finding? 

A    Well,  it  was  a  very  strong  factor. 

Q    Was  it  discussed  openly  among  the  members  at 
the  meetings? 

A    I  can  clearly  recall  the  President  discussing  it. 

Q    And  had  there  been  an  history  prior  to  that 
time'^^^ame,  the  November  '85  timeframe,  had  there  been  an 
history  of  congressional  leaks,  leaks  from  Conc^ress,  that 
you  were  aware  of  and  could  cite  as  examples? 

IIMPI  Aooinrn 


1534 


113 


A    There  probably  were.   No  specific  incidents  come 
to  mind.   I  can  remember  something  specific  after  that. 

Q    Do  you  recall  tasking  someone  on  the  NSC  staff 
while  you  were  Deputy  to  prepare  a  memorandum  outlining 
leaks  that  had  taken  place  in  the  past  from  Congress  or  for 
that  matter,  leaks  from  the  Executive  Branch  with  regard  to 
sensitive  national  security  matters? 

A    Yes.   I  can  recall  tasking  Mr.  DeGraffenreid  to 
prepare  one  as  I  recall. 

Q    With  regard  to  Mr.  North,  you  made  a  comment 
in  your  first  deposition.  May  2nd,  when  you  were  being 
questioned  about  Colonel  North  as  the  switching  point  in 
the  contra  program,  I  think  you  made  a  comment  to  the 
effect  that  the  contras  during  that  time  frame  could  not 
have  stayed  alive,  stayed  going  without  the  efforts  of 
Colonel  North.   But  as  I  recall  it,  you  didn't  expound  on 
the  reasons  why. 

Could  you  share  with  us  some  of  the  reasons 
why  you  feel  Colonel  North  was  indispensable  during  that 
time^frame  of  financial  aid  being  withdrawn  by  Congress  to 
keeping  the  contras  alive? 

A    The  Boland  Amendment  clearly  prohibited  CIA 
from  providing  the  kind  of  advice  and  assistance  that 
they  had  been  providing  after  we  encouraged  th?m  to  band 
together  to  put  pressure  on  the  Sandinista  government  and 


IIMPi  Aooinrn 


/ 


1535 


l^WSFuWrTHrlr^' 


114 


to  also  help  interdict  arms.   Those  were  both  early 
objectives.   And  when  the  Boland  Amendment  cut  the  CIA 

out  of  the  operation  and  cut  off  all  funding,  we  were 

i/ 
convinced  with  perserverj^^nce  we  could  turn  that  around, 

but  it  was  going  to  take  time.   And  in  order  for  the 

contras  to  survive  as  a  viable  force,  they  needed  advice, 

assistance,  they  needed  political  help  to  get  themselves 

organized  so  they  could  present  a  better  picture  to  the 

American  public,  and  without  somebody  on  the  NSC,  which  in 

my  mind  was  not  covered  by  the  Boland  Amendment,  without 

somebody  on  the  NSC  staff  providing  that  kind  of  function, 

I  don't  think  they  would  have  survived  until  we  could  get 

the  hundred  million  dollars.   They  would  have  disbanded,  I 

think^  or  been  chopped  up  by  the  Sandinistas  as  soon  as 

the  Boland  Amendment  passed,  the  Soviets  increased  their 

arms  deliveries,  they  started  putting  in  the  HIND 

helicopters. 

Q    Is  it  your  view  Colonel  North  was  principally 
responsible  for  keeping  them  going  at  that  time? 

A    That's  my  opinion.   I  think  it  is  fair  to  say, 
although  he  can't  be  here  to  substantiate  it  himself,  but 
Bill  Casey  agreed  with  me. 

Q    One  last  area  I  would  like  to  comment  on  is  the 
comment,  I  don't  know  if  you  saw  it  at  all,  buf 
Mr.  McFarlane  was  interviewed  by  Barbara  Walters  and 


\\m  h^mm 


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later  on  when  he  appeared  in  public  testified  one  of  the 
questions  that  he  had  been  asked  and  by  Barbara  Walters 
was  revisited  in  his  public  testimony,  that  was  about  the 
impact  of  Vietnam  on  him,  on  Bud  McFarlane,  and  his  feeling 
it  was  an  influencing  factor  on  Colonel  North  with  regard 
to  his  conduct.  Colonel  North's  conduct  as  well  as 
McFarlane' s . 

Oo  you  share  the  same  opinion  he  gave  on  that 
occasion? 

A    I  think  it  had  an  impact.   I  think  it  had  an 
impact  on  a  lot  of  people. 

Q    How  would  you  say  it  impacted  on  Colonel  North 
from  your  perspective? 

A  I  think  it  reinforced  the  problems  and  the 
danger,  the  long-terra  danger  to  the  United  States  of 
deserting  friends  and  allies. 

Q    Did  you  share  McFarlame's  assessment  that  North 
was  driven  to  avoid  that  kind  of  eibandonment  happening 
again  to  the  people  — 

A    Well,  I  think  we  all  were.   I  think  I  was  that 
way,  I  think  Bud  was  that  way,  Ollie  was  that  way,  the 
President  was  that  way.  We  didn't  want  to  desert  the 
contras. 

Q    Did  it  ever  come  up  in  your  discussifons  with  the 
President,  that. Vietnam  experience  and  how  it  related  to 


flMPi  Accinrn 


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the  contras? 

A    I  don't  recall  that. 

Q    How  about  among  your  conversations  with  Bud? 

A    I  think  it  probably  did  come  up.   I  can't  recall 
a  specific  conversation  like  that.   The  impact  of  Vietnam 
on  the  national  security  policymaking,  not  just  within  the 
Administration  but  within  Congress  and  within  the  various 
branches  of  the  Executive  Branch  of  government,  Vietneun 
played  a  very  big  role  both  ways. 

Q    Well,  Admiral,  I  have  to  unfortunately  dash 
off  to  another  deposition. 

MR.  BECKLER:   It  is  not  unfortunate. 
MR.  LEON:   Let  me  take  this  opportunity  as  I 
close  and  turn  the  forum  back  over  to  your  host,  Mr.  Liman, 
for  whatever  he  wishe<S  to  do,  let  me  take  this  opportunity 
on  behalf  of  the  House  Minority  to  thank  you  very  much  for 
your  time  and  your  effort  here  to  answer  these  questions 
in  the  deposition.   You  have  spent  many  hours  before  the 
committee  now  and  staff,  and  we  certainly  appreciate  the 
time  that  you  have  put  in  in  your  efforts  to  try  and 
answer  these  questions. 

I  think  it's  important  to  note  that  for  the 
record. 

With  regard  to  those  memorandums  thajt  I  have 
discussed  before,  we  will  maJce  an  effort  to  assist  you  to 


KNniis^iFiFn 


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have  access  to  those  so  that  you"  carTTeview  them  before 
your  testimony. 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    I  do  have  just  a  couple  questions. 

Let  me  ask  you.   You  were  asked  by  Mr.  Leon  some 
questions  —  well,  let  me  cover  this.   You  have 
testified  about  a  meeting  which  took  place  on  November  20, 
1986.   I'm  not  going  to  ask  you  about  the  meeting 
because  you  testified  about  that  several  times  now.   After 
the  meeting  took  place  into  the  evening  of  November  20th, 
were  you  contacted  by  Mr.  Cooper? 

A    I  didn't  —  in  my  preparations  for  this  hearing, 
reading  his  transcript,  I  understand  that  I  was.   I  don't 
remember  it  very  clearly.   I  don't  deny  that  I  was,  but  I 
don't  remember  it  very  well. 

Q    Did  you  listen  to  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Cooper? 

A    I  read  most  of  it,  watched  other  parts  of  it. 

Q    As  of  the  end  of  the  meeting  on  the  20th,  I  take 
it  there  was  some  agreement  about  —  one  of  the  purposes 
of  the  meeting  at  least  was  to  reconcile  the  fact  so  that 
you  or  Mr.  Casey  could  testify  consistently  before  the 
committees  the  following  day.   Is  that  a  fair  summary  of  at 
least  one  of  the  purposes? 

A    That  is  correct.  • 

Q    I  take  it  by  the  end  of  the  meeting  there  was 

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iOTREP 


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agreement  about  how  facts  would  be  presented  the 


following  day.   Is  that  -- 

A     Well,  I  wouldn't  say  there  was  agreement  because 
when  the  meeting  ended  I  had  some  questions  in  my  mind. 
The  meeting  —  frankly,  it  was  too  big,  there  were  too 
many  people  there. 

Q    To  reach  a  consensus? 

A    Well,  to  lay  all  the  cards  on  the  table. 

Q    Mr.  Cooper  has  testified  about  a  series  of  events 
that  then  took  place  during  the  evening  of  November  20th, 
various  phone  calls  between  himself  and  Mr.  Sofaer  and 
calls  to  the  CIA  and  various  other  calls  to  reconcile  some 
facts  that  were  learned.   Did  you  learn  about  those  during 
the  evening  of  the  20th? 

A    At  some  point  I  did  learn  about  them,  at  least 
some  of  the  telephone  calls. 

Q    And  did  you  learn  about  them  on  the  evening  of 
the  20th? 

A    I  really  don't  recall  the  time"^frame.   As  I 
testified  earlier,  it  seems  to  me  I  knew  that  Secretary 
Shultz's  recollection  of  November  '85  was  different  from 
Mr.  McFarlane's  earlier  than  the  20th,  but  it  might  have 
been  after  the  evening  of  the  20th. 

Q    How  many  people  were  at  the  meeting  dn  the  20th? 

A    Bob  Gates,  Bill  Casey,  Ed  Meese,  Cooper,  North, 


IIMOI  AQQicirn 


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n«,  find  I  can't  rain«ab«r  whether  —  it  ••ems  to  me  there 
were  one  or  two  other  people,  probably  from  my  staff,  I'm 
not  sure.   Connander  Thompson  was  in  and  out  of  the  meeting. 
MR.  BECKLERt   Is  that  the  best  you  recollect? 
BY  MR.  EGGLE8T0N: 

Q    I  take  it  that's  the  best  you  recall. 

A    Yes. 

Q    Nhen  you  testified  a  few  nonents  ago  the 
meeting  was  too  large  to  lay  the  cards  on  the  table,  «^at 
did  you  wma  by  that? 

A    I  had  only  aet  Mr.  Cooper  earlier^  Z  had  no  idea 
who  he  was,  how  close  he  wa«  to  Ed.  His  presence  laid  a 
note  of  caution  on  urn.     Frankly,  Mr.  Gates'  presence  also. 
And,  as  Z  said,  at  that  point  X  had  reports  from  Colonel 
North  as  to  Mr.  Mcrarlme's  recollection  in  November,  which 
X  didn't  thiidc  was  accurate,  and  X  didn't  care  to  surface 
that  point  in  front  of  the  —  if  it  had  been  Ed  Meese, 
•ill  Cas«y  and  X  sitting  down  together  X  %rould  have  raised 
it,  but  with  the  other  pe^le  there  X  was  unwilling  to 
raise  it. 

Q    Let  »e  ask  you  specifically.  Nhat  was  it  that  you 
would  have  raised? 

A    Z  would  have  raised  the  fact  that  Bud*s  recollectic^ 
was  «^at  Colonel  North  was  reporting.  See,  my/ recollection 
at  that  point  of  the  events  of  Novaber  '85,  I  simply  didn't 

u    iiNnimiPirn 


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remember  the  Hawk  shipment,  nothing  about  it  in  Novembei 


I  would  have  raised  that  what  Colonel  North  was  reporting 
was  what  Bud  remembered,  and  I  was  uncertain  that  that  was 
right. 

Q  I'm  sorry  to  do  this  in  such  a  tedious  way,  but 
when  you  say  "what  North  was  reporting("\/ what  do  you  mean 
by  that?  What  is  it  you  recall  North  was  reporting. 

A    Well,  he  was  reporting  Bud  couldn't  remember 
anything  about  any  prior  knowledge  of  Hawk a.  in  November 
of  '85. 

Q    Was  Colonel  North  reporting  that  the  United 
States  Government's  knowledge  was  it  was  oil  drilling 
equipment?   Is  that  what  you  remember  about  what  it  was 
North  was  reporting? 

A    At  this  point  I'm  not  sure  of  what  I  remembered 
in  November  of  '86.   But  at  some  point  I  did  recall  that  oil 
drilling  equipment  had  been  used  I  believe  in  conversations 
Colonel  North  had  with  the  CIA  in  November  '85.   I  think 
that  was  the  cover  that  he  probably  used  in  talking  to  the 
CIA  about  the  proprietary. 

Q    How  was  what  Colonel  North  was  reporting  about 
the  November  '85  events,  how  was  that  inconsistent  with 
your_ recollection  of  those  events? 

A    Well,  my  recollection  was,  as  I  said",  very  fuzzy. 
I  frankly  at  that  point  didn't  know  what  the  truth  was. 

mm  Accicicn 


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121 


I  guess  I  doubted  that  oil  drilling^TJliipment  —  that  didn't 
sound  very  logical  in  November  '86,  and  I  didn't  think 
that  was  accurate.   I  just  didn't  feel  at  that  point  we 
were  getting  a  straight  story  out  of  Mr.  McFarlane.   It 
may  very  well  be  he  couldn't  remember  either.   I  felt  he 
was  in  a  better  position  to  remember,  because  he  had  been 
in  on  a  critical  ineeting  in  August  of  '85  that  I  missed 
with  the  President  when  this  thing  started. 

Q    Is  it  your  recollection  in  this  meeting  on  the 
20th  you  had  already  learned  Shultz  had  a  recollection  it 
was  Hawk  mi.ssiles. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I'm  going  to  object.   We  went  over 
this  meeting  before.   We  are  on  the  tenth  minute  right  now, 
Enough  is  enough.   You  will  have  four  or  five  days  of 
public  testimony  to  hammer  away,  and  I'm  sure  you  will. 
At  this  point  we  are  ready  to  close  down  here  really. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   I  will  move  off  that  meeting. 

When  I  started,  I  really  anticipated  I  would 
only  take   10  minutes  or  so  but  some  of  your  responses 
were  not  what  I  anticipated. 

MR.  BECKLER:   It  is  all  our  fault. 

Let  the  record  reflect  Mr.  Liman  is  not  involved 

in  this  examination  process. 

A 
MR.  LIM^N:   Only  in  a  very  destructive  way. 


MR.  SMALL:   Get  that  on  the  record. 

iiMcujO£jintn_ 


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MR.    BECKLER:      It    is  on   the   record. 


122 


BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    Did  anyone  ever  ask  Ronald  Reagan  whether  he 
recalled  there  were  Hawk  missiles  on  the  airplane  in 
November  1985  or  whether  he  knew  about  it  as  of  the  time? 

A    I  did  not  ask  him. 

Q    You  testified  on  May  2nd  that  you  met  with 
Colonel  North  and  he  briefed  you  from  a  notebook  that  he 
had.   I  think  it  is  your  recollection  that  you  thought  he 
was  going  to  destroy  the  notebook. 

A    That's  ri^ht. 

Q    Did  you  have  any  understanding  he  was  going  to 
destroy  anything  in  addition  to  the  notebook? 

A    Not  from  that  particular  incident.   And  I  didn't 
have  any  specific  knowledge  that  he  was  going  to  destroy 
anything  else.   I  would  not  have  found  that  particularly 
inconsistent  in  terms  of  working  docume.ots,  private 
records . 

Q    Hell,  did  you  believe  he  was  going  to  destroy 
documents  as  a  result  of  the  investigation  about  which  he 
had  then  been  advised? 

A    It  wasn't  an  investigation.   I  would  not 
characterize  it  that  way  at  all.   It  was  an  inquiry  or 
factfinding  to  resolve  the  problem  that  we  had.*  ,  As  I 
recall,  this  was  the  way  it  was  presented  to  the  President 

iiiim  Aooinrni 


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on  that  Friday  morning  at  11:30  when  Don  and  I  were  there. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Let's  not  argue  about  that. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   I'll  accept  your  characterization. 

MR.  BECKLER:   I  think  his  testimony  about 
destruction,  what  he  thought  of  it  was  covered  May  2nd. 
There  is  nothing  more  to  say  about  it. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   I  read  it  over  to  make  sure  I 
wasn't  going  to  ask  additional  questions,  I  think  just 
about  that  particular  notebook.   I  don't  think  he  was  asked 
whether  he  believed  Colonel  North  was  going  to  destroy 
other  documents. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  didn't  know  that  to  the  best  of 
my  knowledge. 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 
Q    Do  you  know  whether  anybody  else  over  that 
weekend  in  addition  to  yourself  or  Colonel  North  destroyed 
documents? 

A    Not  that  Z  know  of. 

Q    The  statute  which  provides  for  notification  to 
Congress  has  a  provision  which  permits  notification  towards 
what  they  frequently  call  the  Group  or  Gang  of  Eight.   To 
your  knowledge,  has  that  procedure  been  used? 

A    Yes.   Hell,  wait  a  minute.   In  the  context  of  a 
Finding?  I  think  we  started  to  one  time,  and  1,'m  not 
quite  sure,  I  think  we  eventually  decided  to  go  'ahead  and 


iiNHi  h^m^i\ 


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notify  the  cotmnittees.   We  were  very  cognizant  of  that 
possibility.   It  may  or  may  not  have  been  used.   I  can't 
remember. 

0    So  you  have  no  recollection  whether  the 
mechanism  which  provides  for  notification  to  a  small  group, 
just  a  Group  of  Eight,  whether  that  has  been  used  or  not? 

A    I  know  at  one  point  we  planned  to  use  it,  not 
related  to  this  but  related  to  something  else.   I'm  a 
little  bit  hazy  as  to  whether  it  actually  happened.   I'm 
unsure. 

Q    I  just  have  one  other  area  to  ask  you  about,  and 
it  is  about  four  questions  worth.   It  is  very  narrow. 

In  March  of  1986  there  has  been  some  testimony 
at  the  hearings  about  this  investigation  which  was  being 
conducted  by  the  U.S.  Attorney's  office  in  Miami  on  Costa 
Rica.   There  has  been  testimony  from  Bob  Owen,  I  think 

testified 

about  a  trip  that  was  taken  down  to  Central  America,  down  to 
Costa  Rica  by  people  from  the  U.S.  Attorney's  office. 

Are  you  familiar  with  any  of  that  testimony  that 
has  come  out  during  the  course  of  the  hearings? 

A    I  remember  parts  of  it. 

Q    Werwou  briefed  in  March  or  so,  in  the  spring 
of  1986,  about  that  investigation? 


Sofr-Tambs  and 


I  don't  recall  it. 

ilkioi  AOOinrn 


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,  Q    Do  you  recall  whether  you  ever  discussed  it  with 
Lowell  Jensen,  who  was  then  with  the  Department  of  Justice? 

A    As  I  said,  I  don't  recall  it.   I  talked  to  Lowell 
several  times. 

Q    I  asked  the  follow-up  question  to  see  whether 
that  would  refresh  your  recollection. 

A    No,  it  doesn't. 

Q    The  last  question  I  have  for  you  is:   You 
indicated  in  response  to  some  questions  from  Mr.  Leon  that 
you  viewed  Colonel  North's  activities  on  Central  America 
as  being  significant  in  keeping  the  movement  alive.   And 
you  said  you  also  thought  Mr.  Casey  viewed  his  actions  in 
the  same  manner.   Did  you  ever  discuss  with  Mr.  Casey  what 
Colonel  North  was  doing  in  Central  America? 

A    No. 

Q    Do  you  know  whether  he  had  knowledge  you  had  of 
what  Colonel  North  was  doing? 

MR.  BECKLER:   If  you  know. 

THE  WITNESS:   I  don't  know  that. 

BY  MR.  EGGLESTON: 

Q    You  must  have  had  some  credit  to  your  statement 
to  Mr.  Leon  you  thought  Mr.  Casey  viewed  Colonel  North's 
actions  in  Central  America  in  the  same  fashion. 


Yes. 


What  wa 


(INDIASHD 


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126 


A    There  was  one  incident  that  made  me  realize  that 
Director  Casey  either  knew  or  speculated  a  great  deal,  and 
that  was  that  Colonel  North  reported  to  me  —  have  I 
testified  to  this  before? 

MR.  BECKLER:   It  doesn't  flwnjr  any  difference.   Go 


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THE  WITNESS:  At  some  point,  I  can't  remember 
exactly  when  it  was,  but  Colonel  North  reported  to  me  that 
Director  Casey  had  stopped  by  his  office  one 
evening  and  told  Colonel  North  that  he  wanted  to  purchase 
an  aircraft  for  the  contras  with  his  own  private  money. 
Colonel  North  reported  to  me  that  he  was  a  little  surprised 
Director  Casey  had  come  to  him,  but  that  led  us  both  to 
believe,  or  led  me  to  believe,  and  I  think  Colonel  North, 
that  Director  Casey  was  pretty  aware  of  some  of  Colonel 
North's  activities.   It  was  not  something  that  I 
openly  discussed  with  Director  Casey.   As  I  said  before, 
I  didn't  want  him  to  be  in  a  position  of  having  detailed 
knowledge  and  having  to  be  evasive  up  here  on  the  Hill. 

MR.  EGGLESTON:   Thank  you.   I  have  nothing  else. 

MR.  BECKLER:   Thank  you  very  much,  gentlemen. 

MR.  LIMAM:   Any  statements  you  want  to  make? 

MR.  BECKLER:   No,  questions. 
(Whereupon,  at  5:30  p.m.,  the  deposiljion  was 


adjourned.) 


IJNClASSm 


?in,fi]?!f  "^SL/C  LIBRARY 

,  „^.fll»IIIIJ 

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